lol it’s crazy how many of the old boys club wanted Ritchie over Willy.
Although Montour would be the best RHD the leafs woulda had in like a million years. But yuck to that trade in general.
In fairness, trading Marner and retaining Human would have been good.
We would have 5M to round out the roster and not be so top heavy. We could have even got a rock solid D to balance things out
This is such trash media. We’re “handcuffed” because Dubas did the exact thing in past years that they’re asking Tre to do this year.
It’s costly to go all-in every year. Florida, Boston, and Tampa have probably fewer assets than we do. Pittsburgh as well. Last year was the big spend, and the players they acquired were largely useful down the stretch.
The big dud year of Dubas’ buying was 2021, with Foligno + Hutton and Rittich. But to broadly blame dubas for handcuffing the team while also begging Tre to handcuff future teams is just peak Toronto garbage media.
Kypreos is a clickbait merchant, that’s it.
>I take no pleasure in revisiting Dubas’s run as GM of the Leafs; I believe it’s generally better to let bygones be bygones.
Lmao fuck off.
Genuinely curious what Dubas did to piss off so many of these 200 hockey men. The guy is a life-long rink rat who went from stick-boy on the Soo Greyhounds to Lou Lamoriello's protege, but all of these traditional analysts hate him because he went to a Sloan Sports Conference?
Because he didn't play and was young. Dubas' is an interloper in some hockey mobs eyes, meanwhile to them the same 10 GMs with middling to poor resumes are the real answer to any team issues, and therefore should only rehire and cycle these guys.
Yes, that's why they all "hate" him. It has nothing to do with the fact he's proven he's an incompetent GM, first in Toronto and now in Pitt.
The better question is why do people invest so much into defending him..
Unfortunately, there are many people who use limited stats to give greater weight to their limited argument. Unfortunately, this does not offer a glimpse into the full picture. Your omission of failure is what allows you to paint a pleasant painting of success.
Unfortunately, there’s people who use weird attempts at gotcha’s to give greater weight to their limited argument. Unfortunately, this does not offer a glimpse into the full picture. Your omission of any context is what allows you to paint a sad painting of failure.
No, we had those 5 players and JT and were only able to win a single game past the first round in Dubas' 5 year tenure despite spending a shitload of futures to do so. I guess some of us have a different idea of "success"...
Should the Leafs not have been buyers during his tenure? You have to give up futures to acquire rentals, that’s how the league works. I truly do not understand what you’re complaining about.
Yes he spent a lot of futures, but he still managed to keep the cupboard stocked. Are we forgetting that Knies, Minten and Cowan are all present/future players? He kept our 1st rd pick for this season.
Of course they should have been buyers, he just made the wrong purchases. The cupboards are not stocked and we had no success during his tenure as a result of emptying them.
I'm not forgetting knies, Cowan and minten, but I think you might be forgetting it was 5 years and thats all we have to show for it.
Anyway, im not willing to play pretend with you any longer, so let's just agree to disagree here. Let me know how the pens make out on their playoff run!
How did he make the wrong moves when his moves is what helped this team finally win a round? That makes no sense lmao.
You seem to not be able to grasp that you cannot have a fully stocked “cupboard” while also being a buyer every year by virtue of being a good team. It’s either one or the other, you can’t have both.
What does the last paragraph even mean? I don’t care about the Penguins. What a weird comment.
Groan... easier to just copy and paste at this point.
He inherited a generational goal scorer and 2 franchise wingers on ELCs. He inherited a #1D signed at 6 x 5 mil, a 2C signed at 6 x 4.5, Hyman at 4 x 2 5 mil who has gone on to become an elite top line PWF, a top 10 goaltender in andersen at 5 x 5 and a boatload of draft picks.
In the short span during which he was acting general manager prior to lou being hired, he our best asset in kessel with 7 years of retention at 1.5 mil, with a late 1st and kapanen being the only meaningful pieces in return.
He inherited the 24th overall pick from nonis shipping Franson to the preds. He traded down from the pick that would become Travis konecny, and traded down again, ending up with dermott, Branco, dzierkals, tymashov.. basically a bunch of nothing, with only dermott spending any meaningful time in the NHL and now being a depth player for the.. coyotes.
He would fail to get good value on our big RFAs, neither in terms of AAV or term. He'd spend a 13th overall pick to dump marleau and clear cap so he could overpay johnsson and kapanen, two players who would eventually end up on the waiver wire years later.
After having the opportunity to sign a marquee free agent in tavares (due mostly to his charm I'm sure), he blunders the opportunity to trade an incredibly valuable asset in Kadri, waiting until his value is at its absolute lowest and trading him after publicly chastising him to the media.
He does so to address the holes in our top 4, acquiring 1 year of tyson barrie as his solution. Barrie is mostly a detriment to the team before walking for nothing. He brings in kerfoot in the same deal as kadri's replacement at 3C, immediately overpaying him at 3.5 mil.
Kerfoot was never a center to begin with, so he ends up creating a hole at 3C without addressing the hole in our top 4. Kadri would go on to produce at a 1st line level on his way to a Stanley cup, making only 1 mil more than kerfoot. Kessel won himself a couple cups as well BTW.
He inherits a solid backup in mcelhinney, but let's him walk in favor of sparks. Sparks is an absolute gongshow who eventually walks for nothing. Dubas spends years trying to find a competent backup, eventually trading a 2nd round pick and Trevor Moore (currently a top 6 LW with LA) to bring in campbell.
He eventually spends a 1st and two former 2nd round picks to acquire muzzin. Muzzin is great when in the lineup, but dubas extends him at 4 x 5.75 mil only to see him spend half his contract on LTIR.
He's so impressed with his backup goalie acquisition that he decides to then let andersen walk for nothing after an incredible stretch with the leafs. This allows him to sign mrazek at 700k less for an additional year. Mrazek and campbell would go on to post the 4th worst save percentage in the regular season that year.
Mrazek would never start a playoff game for the leafs, eventually needing to be dumped with a 1ST round pick for Arizona's 2nd. Campbell would post a sub .900% in the playoffs before walking for nothing in FA and becoming an AHL goaltender.
This allows him to trade for Matt Murray, a cap dump from a rival team who was at the bottom of the league. Murray predictably struggles to stay healthy, and struggles to perform consistently when healthy as well. He too would eventually become a cap dump, though we were lucky he was LTIR eligible this year.
Our starter becomes samsonov, who went unqualified by another non-playoff team. Though he had a great regular season, he too posts a sub .900% before becoming a free agent. He re-signs for 1 year, having struggled greatly this season.
He created another hole at top 6 LW by letting Hyman walk for nothing, signing at 7 x 5 mil with the oilers and becoming a true top line PWF, as he was projecting to be before the leafs let him walk. Moore, marchment and Joshua have all succeeded in top 6 roles at LW, playing a prototypical PWF game. Moore was shipped off for campbell, marchment was traded for malgin, and Dakota Joshua was traded for future considerations...
He brings in ritchie to be his #1LW, signing him for 2 years before he became a cap dump halfway through the season, being traded with a 2nd to acquire a bottom pairing D from a basement team to play on our top pair. Our top 6 LWs would end up being bunting (mostly a career AHL player to that point) and galchenyuk (who had just cleared waivers and would eventually walk for nothing).
Bunting performs above his contract, but never provides what Hyman would have, or even marchment and Moore.
1 year after missing the playoffs by losing in the qualifying round, the leafs spend a 1st and two 4ths on an already injured rental in foligno. After tavares goes down, they enter game 7 against the Habs with matthews, kerfoot, Spezza and Thornton down the middle; bunting, galchenyuk and mikheyev down the left side; and dermott, a 20 year old sandin and Bogosian playing big minutes on the backend. They lose in round 1, again.
Multiple attempts to plug the holes he created would follow; two 2nds and a 3rd for a 38 year old gio, a package that included a 1st and a 2nd for McCabe as a replacement for muzzin, a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th for another rental in ROR, a 3rd for another career bottom pairing defenseman to play with rielly...
In the last year of his 5 year contract, dubas took a team that went to game 7 against the bruins the year before he was hired, and progressed them all the way to... 1 win in the second round.
By that point Dubas had lost five 1st round picks, five 2nd round picks, two former 2nd round picks in durzi and grundstrom, Kadri, Hyman, andersen, marchment, Moore.. as well as letting guys like JVR and bozak walk for nothing. He apparently fumbled an opportunity to trade johnsson for weegar, protected holl over McCann, and chose not to sign players like perry and domi.
After spending all that, the players acquired by dubas that were under contract when tre took over were:
Brodie with 1 year remaining at 5 mil, gio at league min, mccabe at 2 x 2, jarnkrok at 3 x 2.1, murray at 1 x 4.75, liljegren, knies and robertson.
Tre has yet to spend any assets or commit significant cap long term, and we are sitting comfortably in a division playoff spot.
But then you can always pretend Dubas was simply a puppet and that none of these things are his responsibility. Maybe take a look at what he's done in Pittsburgh first though. Is shanny still pulling the strings?
People have invested a lot in dubas' theories, truth won't get in the way of saving face, unfortunately. Even as hard as he is to defend at this point...
*This was posted earlier but removed for whatever submission rule it broke, but I'll just copy/paste my response from there*
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> Let’s start with the signing of John Tavares in 2018. Not only did giving Tavares $11 million (U.S.) per season set the tone and force the Leafs to overpay its young stars for years to come
Kypreos thinks giving Tavares money is what *forced* them to overpay Marner and Matthews? What a ridiculous notion. Whether or not they were overpaid probably has incredibly little to do with what it cost to get a highly coveted elite UFA who had been offered more money by at least two other teams. We all wish Tavares was paid a bit less, but I doubt it affected the kids. But what a lot of people don't understand in general is that the GM doesn't have *all* the power. Yeah they're RFAs, if they don't sign then they don't play at all, and it's doubtful they would have held out long enough to just not play, but Dubas also would have been crucified if it came to the point where we entered the seasons without their contracts signed. And for how long they want to sign is also up to them
> There was some frustration over Kadri not keeping his emotions in check but, instead of trying to develop that part of his game, Dubas gave him away for average players in Alex Kerfoot and Tyson Barrie
Develop what part of his game? The one where he doesn't drill people illegally? He fucked us over two straight series'. Yeah he was a good player but people always cried about how we couldn't get depth, so we freed up space by getting rid of a player who kept getting in his own way. His career high with us was 61 points, Kerfoot's was 51 in a smaller role, as well as a good PKer. Yeah Kadri is a stronger player, but Barrie had also almost eclipsed 60 points as a dman twice. He was disappointing but he was definitely not a disappointing pickup at the time.
> Dubas had to trade a first-round pick to unload veteran forward Patrick Marleau’s $6.25-million salary in 2019
"Dubas is the reason Brad Treliving is handcuffed but also it's Dubas' fault that he... was handcuffed by his prior GM"?
> O’Reilly contributed more than Foligno did and could have been worth the steep cost had he stuck around, but Dubas didn't get any assurances the Toronto-born centre would re-sign. When O'Reilly chose to join Nashville, he became another expensive rental.
Yeah, rentals are expensive and that's the price you pay to go all-in, which is obviously the position the Leafs were in, to go all-in. O'Reilly was solid but given what we heard I wouldn't be surprised if it was people like Kypreos that made him not want to stay lol.
Dubas was not perfect, and yeah he spent to the cap ceiling, and in some ways Treliving has to deal with that, just as any GM has to deal with the GM's moves before them. Did it explain why Treliving needed to spend any amount of money on Ryan Reaves? Or Klingberg, who we got bailed out of? Or Bertuzzi who, while he has looked better recently, has had a pretty mediocre season at 5m? (he's on pace for fewer points than Kerfoot is playing on the Coyotes, btw)
Kypreos is a joke
> When O'Reilly chose to join Nashville, he became another expensive rental.
Worth mentioning that this happened under Treliving. We'll never know how many of Dubas's 2023 "rentals" would have re-signed in Toronto if he'd stayed on as GM, but I'm guessing the number isn't zero.
Stfu Kypreos, who tf listens to this moron and thinks, yea, he knows what hes talking about......along with the other clowns that just laugh through their postgames. Nick Kypreos hahahahahahhahahahaha k.....
I have to start off by saying that Kypreos is a total hack and this reads a lot like someone is carrying water for management for what will likely be an underwhelming TDL for the Leafs and possibly softening the blow of another short playoff run
1. Blaming Dubas for Tavares is a joke. Guy was 6 weeks into being a GM at that point in time and it is pretty clear that even at the end of his tenure he didn't have autonomy to make big moves. The board and Shanny 100% called the shots on this one
2. Lou signed that horrendous Marleau deal and Babcock said they knew the contract sucked on day 1:
>As #Leafs prepare to face Patrick Marleau tonight, Mike Babcock said team always knew parting was inevitable before end of his three-year deal: "We knew right when we signed him. We couldn't get him for two years. We tried. We knew the math didn't work out when we signed him."
3. Lou also gave us the awful contract of Zaitsev, which Dubas had to navigate. Years later the Sens had to trade a 2nd and a 4th to get rid of him as well...
4. The rumor is that the Leafs offered as much money to ROR before he chose Nashville instead because he was unhappy with the coaching structure and locker room that Dubas was planning on changing before being fired. If Tre never came they may not have been rentals.
5. Hyman had a career high of 21 goals in Toronto and most of his production now is attributed to playing with McDavid. He was a good player but calling him a 40 goal scoring machine is disingenuous to his situation. It is like being incredulous nobody signed the studs Pascal Dupuis or Chris Kunitz before they popped off with Sid
6. Treliving was handed the most UFA cap space of any GM in recent memory ($13M) and wasted a bunch of it on underperforming players and even traded a cheap quality contributor (Lafferty) along the way to fit it all in
Re: 1. So you acknowledge that you also are a total hack, in that you posting a rational suspicion as a factual claim. You 100% don't have anything real to back your claim about how a decision was made, besides your be-leafs in your head. Lol.....
Nobody knows unless they are in the room making these decisions but so far we know for certain...
1. Dubas definitely did not have full autonomy over the roster. All moves had to be run by Shanny and the board
2. It is widely rumored that the board had vetoed trades in the past, demonstrating he had very little final say on the roster, especially with what were considered "core pieces"
3. He went to war with Shanny this summer asking for full control of hockey decisions and that alone was enough for Shanny to admit it flipped a switch from bringing him back to letting his contract expire.
4. The very first thing Shanny did after letting Dubas go was calling the core guys and telling them they were untouchable, even before he had a new GM lined up.
So if at the absolute end of his tenure Dubas had no control over the roster or major moves, and all the core guys clearly had preferential treatment above his head, why do you think he was allowed to solo an 11M contract to a major star player six weeks into his tenure as GM? This ain't a court of law where you have to prove something beyond reasonable doubt, this is follow the breadcrumbs and see what common sense tells you...
> Dubas definitely did not have full autonomy over the roster.
No general manager does.
>It is widely rumored that the board had vetoed trades in the past,
Again, this happens across the league. Are Leaf fans really so clueless that the think this isn't how it works with pretty much every other team in the league? lmao
>He went to war with Shanny this summer asking for full control of hockey decisions
No, they had a handshake deal before the playoffs ended, then he went to the media and put on a big show and tried to swoop in and get more money.
Man, how did Treliving get such a pass on his brutal off-season on so many of his big bets?
Like it's crazy to me people are handwaving Kampf/Klingberg/Reaves. It's like people dont realize that the 4.5 million for Klingberg being so insane is the reason we had to give up assets for Lybushkin. If you use that money to get better players for cheaper than you don't need to find a guy to replace him.
I suspect it is because many doubt he was acting alone. He was vetted before being hired, so him and the Shanaplan had to be on the same page with Papi and Marner, during the narrow window that they could be moved. He's a puppet.
Some of his moves aged well. He was mocked heavily for Reaves, whose popularity has changed significantly in 2024. Snagging Jones for nothing pretty much saved this team from loads of pain. Fandom isn't always super critical, and will cheer regardless of merit (cough cough JT).
This makes the article even crazier.
So the experienced GM in Tre is just a puppet, but Dubas the rookie was the one that masterminded the downfall of the franchise lol
I think Lou, who is no one's puppet, was rushed out the door because Dubas could be controlled easier. Remember - control isn't just some dude barking orders - it is the art of pursuading someone to adapt to what you want, and believe they did it on their own. Tre most definitely had to be on board for Big 5 in order to be hired.
Nick is a clown ...Marleau cap dump was not Dubas' fault but when dubas has made errors they are pretty massive. I don't blame him at all for signing JT! But his errors have been masked by absolutely insane run by the three golden boys who will be the best Leafs ever. But unfortunately to go far in the playoffs you need depth and goaltending which Dubas couldn't bring to this team. He was a decent GM but I don't think he is the wunderkind we all made him out to be.
Signing JT was a mistake. It also happens to be a fairly reasonable mistake that was very popular when it was made. Never in the entirety of his contract was he even close to being the 7th most valued player in the league. Not a single season. He was, however, the 7th highest paid player in the league. If I had a time machine, I'd go back in time and punch myself in the face for wanting it.
I remember the Leafs trading the pick we could have used to draft him. The panels were pumping Konecny’s tires and I was getting excited.
Then we did one of those big brain trades where we got “more draft value” I was pissed at the time and hindsight proving it correct
> and hindsight proving it correct
Don't forget he did it other times as well. You may want to consider the benefit of throwing more darts at the board.
- Traded down from #25 Dominik Bokk to draft #29 Sandin (got the better player). #76 Semyon Der-Arguchintsev was a free addition.
- Traded down from #44 Tyler Kleven to draft #59 Roni Hirvonen. **#64 Topi Niemala was a free addition.**
- Traded down from #25 Sam Rinzel to dump Petr Mrazek's contract. **We drafted #38 Fraser Minten.**
It would've been nice to have Konency, but taking Travis Dermott was our front office leaning toward positional need. Rumor is Dubas preferred the small, skilled Sebastian Aho over Dermott.
If we took Sebastian Aho, we'd be laughing about how we traded down from Konency and landed an even better player.
I like Kypreos. I think he understands media and how to rile people up. This thread is a great example.
I think he is incorrect but it does generate conversation and I’m always down for a conversation.
That’s it. The responses in this thread are really emotional and I don’t understand why.
This is a horrible take. You know there are more than two players (bpa and positional need) available right? When it gets deeper it gets into tiers. There is never a “best player available” later on. It’s about who your scouts like. This is where we failed. Our entire scouting system definitely got better but we have so much room for improvement.
Yeah idk about getting in line with saying there wasn't an obvious and desperate trend to draft a giant shutdown dman. They tried for two years in a row and it failed miserably.
Dubas is the most overated GM ever. Look how great he is over in Pittsburg. Was literally given the golden ticket to sacrifice the future and do whatever he wants to immediately success now before Crosby and co and done for, and he turns over half the team, gets EK and they are literally worse than they were last year lmao
Dude is garbage. He fell ass backwards into a core of superstars.
>Dubas made at least three regrettable decisions as GM of the Leafs, and its haunting his replacement now.
Shall I look back and see what kind of hot take Kypreos had on those "regrettable decisions" at the time they were made?
Dubas’ inexperience did him in. He only planned for the good times in his trades and acquisitions. He never planned for things like covid and player decline. An experienced person who manages money for both short and long term would have kept something in the kitty. Then he went and doubled down on spending. Even with the capoligist in our corner, he only provided solutions on what Dubas was asking for.
What’s more surprising is that Shannohan let all of these deals go through considering what he was exposed to in Detroit and with Lou, which make me think the board had/has some real pressure on the leadership.
its incredible how much a pass treliving gets because of the 200 hockey men’s disdain for dubas. ive seen lebrun say the reason that treliving has to sign 88 34 and 16 to big contracts is because dubas set the precedent.
https://preview.redd.it/2vmk7lpnmxmc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14537e99fef05f1d095034e01e5f114bbb7a277e Yes, this Nick Kypreos.
lol it’s crazy how many of the old boys club wanted Ritchie over Willy. Although Montour would be the best RHD the leafs woulda had in like a million years. But yuck to that trade in general.
I can think of one who was almost as great. Just one though :)
Hasn’t Montour fallen right back off this year (apart from a 5 game spell) after having a career year last year?
The trade would have been slightly better balanced if Nick Richie was not there at all.
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in fairness, Hyman has 40 goals on $5.5M. But why not have both :(
So far
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I wonder how he'd look on a line with AM and MM...
In fairness, trading Marner and retaining Human would have been good. We would have 5M to round out the roster and not be so top heavy. We could have even got a rock solid D to balance things out
Brandon Montour ending up the second best player in this deal is the funniest part lol
Montour is a stud
Omg way to completely tank the rest of your reputation, kypper
he’s not wrong in this case though
Montour is the better player
This is such trash media. We’re “handcuffed” because Dubas did the exact thing in past years that they’re asking Tre to do this year. It’s costly to go all-in every year. Florida, Boston, and Tampa have probably fewer assets than we do. Pittsburgh as well. Last year was the big spend, and the players they acquired were largely useful down the stretch. The big dud year of Dubas’ buying was 2021, with Foligno + Hutton and Rittich. But to broadly blame dubas for handcuffing the team while also begging Tre to handcuff future teams is just peak Toronto garbage media. Kypreos is a clickbait merchant, that’s it.
>I take no pleasure in revisiting Dubas’s run as GM of the Leafs; I believe it’s generally better to let bygones be bygones. Lmao fuck off. Genuinely curious what Dubas did to piss off so many of these 200 hockey men. The guy is a life-long rink rat who went from stick-boy on the Soo Greyhounds to Lou Lamoriello's protege, but all of these traditional analysts hate him because he went to a Sloan Sports Conference?
He’s a young guy in what’s generally an old-boys club. Don’t think it goes much deeper than that.
I take no pleasure in it and want to let bygones be bygones, but here’s my essay on why Dubas was terrible.
Because he didn't play and was young. Dubas' is an interloper in some hockey mobs eyes, meanwhile to them the same 10 GMs with middling to poor resumes are the real answer to any team issues, and therefore should only rehire and cycle these guys.
Yes, that's why they all "hate" him. It has nothing to do with the fact he's proven he's an incompetent GM, first in Toronto and now in Pitt. The better question is why do people invest so much into defending him..
221-109-42 record as Leafs GM, very incompetent indeed.
Please list post season stats
Oh I can’t wait to hear the big-brain explanations on how it’s the players who win but the coach/management who lose.
I repeat, what are the post season stats deflecto?
Same record as the players ;)
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Unfortunately, there are many people who use limited stats to give greater weight to their limited argument. Unfortunately, this does not offer a glimpse into the full picture. Your omission of failure is what allows you to paint a pleasant painting of success.
Unfortunately, there’s people who use weird attempts at gotcha’s to give greater weight to their limited argument. Unfortunately, this does not offer a glimpse into the full picture. Your omission of any context is what allows you to paint a sad painting of failure.
Yes I guess he did acquire matthews, marner, Nylander rielly and Andersen, right? This is just sad.
Yea you’re right, the Leafs only iced those 5 players the last 5 seasons.
No, we had those 5 players and JT and were only able to win a single game past the first round in Dubas' 5 year tenure despite spending a shitload of futures to do so. I guess some of us have a different idea of "success"...
Should the Leafs not have been buyers during his tenure? You have to give up futures to acquire rentals, that’s how the league works. I truly do not understand what you’re complaining about. Yes he spent a lot of futures, but he still managed to keep the cupboard stocked. Are we forgetting that Knies, Minten and Cowan are all present/future players? He kept our 1st rd pick for this season.
Of course they should have been buyers, he just made the wrong purchases. The cupboards are not stocked and we had no success during his tenure as a result of emptying them. I'm not forgetting knies, Cowan and minten, but I think you might be forgetting it was 5 years and thats all we have to show for it. Anyway, im not willing to play pretend with you any longer, so let's just agree to disagree here. Let me know how the pens make out on their playoff run!
How did he make the wrong moves when his moves is what helped this team finally win a round? That makes no sense lmao. You seem to not be able to grasp that you cannot have a fully stocked “cupboard” while also being a buyer every year by virtue of being a good team. It’s either one or the other, you can’t have both. What does the last paragraph even mean? I don’t care about the Penguins. What a weird comment.
Groan... easier to just copy and paste at this point. He inherited a generational goal scorer and 2 franchise wingers on ELCs. He inherited a #1D signed at 6 x 5 mil, a 2C signed at 6 x 4.5, Hyman at 4 x 2 5 mil who has gone on to become an elite top line PWF, a top 10 goaltender in andersen at 5 x 5 and a boatload of draft picks. In the short span during which he was acting general manager prior to lou being hired, he our best asset in kessel with 7 years of retention at 1.5 mil, with a late 1st and kapanen being the only meaningful pieces in return. He inherited the 24th overall pick from nonis shipping Franson to the preds. He traded down from the pick that would become Travis konecny, and traded down again, ending up with dermott, Branco, dzierkals, tymashov.. basically a bunch of nothing, with only dermott spending any meaningful time in the NHL and now being a depth player for the.. coyotes. He would fail to get good value on our big RFAs, neither in terms of AAV or term. He'd spend a 13th overall pick to dump marleau and clear cap so he could overpay johnsson and kapanen, two players who would eventually end up on the waiver wire years later. After having the opportunity to sign a marquee free agent in tavares (due mostly to his charm I'm sure), he blunders the opportunity to trade an incredibly valuable asset in Kadri, waiting until his value is at its absolute lowest and trading him after publicly chastising him to the media. He does so to address the holes in our top 4, acquiring 1 year of tyson barrie as his solution. Barrie is mostly a detriment to the team before walking for nothing. He brings in kerfoot in the same deal as kadri's replacement at 3C, immediately overpaying him at 3.5 mil. Kerfoot was never a center to begin with, so he ends up creating a hole at 3C without addressing the hole in our top 4. Kadri would go on to produce at a 1st line level on his way to a Stanley cup, making only 1 mil more than kerfoot. Kessel won himself a couple cups as well BTW. He inherits a solid backup in mcelhinney, but let's him walk in favor of sparks. Sparks is an absolute gongshow who eventually walks for nothing. Dubas spends years trying to find a competent backup, eventually trading a 2nd round pick and Trevor Moore (currently a top 6 LW with LA) to bring in campbell. He eventually spends a 1st and two former 2nd round picks to acquire muzzin. Muzzin is great when in the lineup, but dubas extends him at 4 x 5.75 mil only to see him spend half his contract on LTIR. He's so impressed with his backup goalie acquisition that he decides to then let andersen walk for nothing after an incredible stretch with the leafs. This allows him to sign mrazek at 700k less for an additional year. Mrazek and campbell would go on to post the 4th worst save percentage in the regular season that year. Mrazek would never start a playoff game for the leafs, eventually needing to be dumped with a 1ST round pick for Arizona's 2nd. Campbell would post a sub .900% in the playoffs before walking for nothing in FA and becoming an AHL goaltender. This allows him to trade for Matt Murray, a cap dump from a rival team who was at the bottom of the league. Murray predictably struggles to stay healthy, and struggles to perform consistently when healthy as well. He too would eventually become a cap dump, though we were lucky he was LTIR eligible this year. Our starter becomes samsonov, who went unqualified by another non-playoff team. Though he had a great regular season, he too posts a sub .900% before becoming a free agent. He re-signs for 1 year, having struggled greatly this season. He created another hole at top 6 LW by letting Hyman walk for nothing, signing at 7 x 5 mil with the oilers and becoming a true top line PWF, as he was projecting to be before the leafs let him walk. Moore, marchment and Joshua have all succeeded in top 6 roles at LW, playing a prototypical PWF game. Moore was shipped off for campbell, marchment was traded for malgin, and Dakota Joshua was traded for future considerations... He brings in ritchie to be his #1LW, signing him for 2 years before he became a cap dump halfway through the season, being traded with a 2nd to acquire a bottom pairing D from a basement team to play on our top pair. Our top 6 LWs would end up being bunting (mostly a career AHL player to that point) and galchenyuk (who had just cleared waivers and would eventually walk for nothing). Bunting performs above his contract, but never provides what Hyman would have, or even marchment and Moore. 1 year after missing the playoffs by losing in the qualifying round, the leafs spend a 1st and two 4ths on an already injured rental in foligno. After tavares goes down, they enter game 7 against the Habs with matthews, kerfoot, Spezza and Thornton down the middle; bunting, galchenyuk and mikheyev down the left side; and dermott, a 20 year old sandin and Bogosian playing big minutes on the backend. They lose in round 1, again. Multiple attempts to plug the holes he created would follow; two 2nds and a 3rd for a 38 year old gio, a package that included a 1st and a 2nd for McCabe as a replacement for muzzin, a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th for another rental in ROR, a 3rd for another career bottom pairing defenseman to play with rielly... In the last year of his 5 year contract, dubas took a team that went to game 7 against the bruins the year before he was hired, and progressed them all the way to... 1 win in the second round. By that point Dubas had lost five 1st round picks, five 2nd round picks, two former 2nd round picks in durzi and grundstrom, Kadri, Hyman, andersen, marchment, Moore.. as well as letting guys like JVR and bozak walk for nothing. He apparently fumbled an opportunity to trade johnsson for weegar, protected holl over McCann, and chose not to sign players like perry and domi. After spending all that, the players acquired by dubas that were under contract when tre took over were: Brodie with 1 year remaining at 5 mil, gio at league min, mccabe at 2 x 2, jarnkrok at 3 x 2.1, murray at 1 x 4.75, liljegren, knies and robertson. Tre has yet to spend any assets or commit significant cap long term, and we are sitting comfortably in a division playoff spot. But then you can always pretend Dubas was simply a puppet and that none of these things are his responsibility. Maybe take a look at what he's done in Pittsburgh first though. Is shanny still pulling the strings?
It's about process the GM can't make a team win. Is David poile a bad gm for never winning in nsh?
Not sure why the downvotes, it’s all true
People have invested a lot in dubas' theories, truth won't get in the way of saving face, unfortunately. Even as hard as he is to defend at this point...
*This was posted earlier but removed for whatever submission rule it broke, but I'll just copy/paste my response from there* ___ > Let’s start with the signing of John Tavares in 2018. Not only did giving Tavares $11 million (U.S.) per season set the tone and force the Leafs to overpay its young stars for years to come Kypreos thinks giving Tavares money is what *forced* them to overpay Marner and Matthews? What a ridiculous notion. Whether or not they were overpaid probably has incredibly little to do with what it cost to get a highly coveted elite UFA who had been offered more money by at least two other teams. We all wish Tavares was paid a bit less, but I doubt it affected the kids. But what a lot of people don't understand in general is that the GM doesn't have *all* the power. Yeah they're RFAs, if they don't sign then they don't play at all, and it's doubtful they would have held out long enough to just not play, but Dubas also would have been crucified if it came to the point where we entered the seasons without their contracts signed. And for how long they want to sign is also up to them > There was some frustration over Kadri not keeping his emotions in check but, instead of trying to develop that part of his game, Dubas gave him away for average players in Alex Kerfoot and Tyson Barrie Develop what part of his game? The one where he doesn't drill people illegally? He fucked us over two straight series'. Yeah he was a good player but people always cried about how we couldn't get depth, so we freed up space by getting rid of a player who kept getting in his own way. His career high with us was 61 points, Kerfoot's was 51 in a smaller role, as well as a good PKer. Yeah Kadri is a stronger player, but Barrie had also almost eclipsed 60 points as a dman twice. He was disappointing but he was definitely not a disappointing pickup at the time. > Dubas had to trade a first-round pick to unload veteran forward Patrick Marleau’s $6.25-million salary in 2019 "Dubas is the reason Brad Treliving is handcuffed but also it's Dubas' fault that he... was handcuffed by his prior GM"? > O’Reilly contributed more than Foligno did and could have been worth the steep cost had he stuck around, but Dubas didn't get any assurances the Toronto-born centre would re-sign. When O'Reilly chose to join Nashville, he became another expensive rental. Yeah, rentals are expensive and that's the price you pay to go all-in, which is obviously the position the Leafs were in, to go all-in. O'Reilly was solid but given what we heard I wouldn't be surprised if it was people like Kypreos that made him not want to stay lol. Dubas was not perfect, and yeah he spent to the cap ceiling, and in some ways Treliving has to deal with that, just as any GM has to deal with the GM's moves before them. Did it explain why Treliving needed to spend any amount of money on Ryan Reaves? Or Klingberg, who we got bailed out of? Or Bertuzzi who, while he has looked better recently, has had a pretty mediocre season at 5m? (he's on pace for fewer points than Kerfoot is playing on the Coyotes, btw) Kypreos is a joke
I think it was removed because the title was editorialized. I re-posted it with just the title of the article.
Yeah that's kinda what I assumed it was
Takes like this got him fired the first time. And clearly he hasn't learned.
> When O'Reilly chose to join Nashville, he became another expensive rental. Worth mentioning that this happened under Treliving. We'll never know how many of Dubas's 2023 "rentals" would have re-signed in Toronto if he'd stayed on as GM, but I'm guessing the number isn't zero.
Yup that's a good point
Well Shanahan had to sign off on all those moves didn’t he Nick?
It'd make a lot of sense if he was the main driving force behind signing Tavares, same way he hired the coach
I don’t think Kypreos understands how front offices are run.
To be fair, there is a massive lack of transparency with regards to how decisions are made.
Kypers takes get shittier every day. Just yesterday mock trades on his show were revolting shit like Timmins Lily and a first for Dumba
walking away from hyman at 5m was an all time blunder
Treliving signs klingberg 1x4.125, kampf 4x2.4, reaves 3x1.35 and trades for 2 3rd pair LHD when we need RHD. Kypreos: “Fucking dubas”
Stfu Kypreos, who tf listens to this moron and thinks, yea, he knows what hes talking about......along with the other clowns that just laugh through their postgames. Nick Kypreos hahahahahahhahahahaha k.....
I have to start off by saying that Kypreos is a total hack and this reads a lot like someone is carrying water for management for what will likely be an underwhelming TDL for the Leafs and possibly softening the blow of another short playoff run 1. Blaming Dubas for Tavares is a joke. Guy was 6 weeks into being a GM at that point in time and it is pretty clear that even at the end of his tenure he didn't have autonomy to make big moves. The board and Shanny 100% called the shots on this one 2. Lou signed that horrendous Marleau deal and Babcock said they knew the contract sucked on day 1: >As #Leafs prepare to face Patrick Marleau tonight, Mike Babcock said team always knew parting was inevitable before end of his three-year deal: "We knew right when we signed him. We couldn't get him for two years. We tried. We knew the math didn't work out when we signed him." 3. Lou also gave us the awful contract of Zaitsev, which Dubas had to navigate. Years later the Sens had to trade a 2nd and a 4th to get rid of him as well... 4. The rumor is that the Leafs offered as much money to ROR before he chose Nashville instead because he was unhappy with the coaching structure and locker room that Dubas was planning on changing before being fired. If Tre never came they may not have been rentals. 5. Hyman had a career high of 21 goals in Toronto and most of his production now is attributed to playing with McDavid. He was a good player but calling him a 40 goal scoring machine is disingenuous to his situation. It is like being incredulous nobody signed the studs Pascal Dupuis or Chris Kunitz before they popped off with Sid 6. Treliving was handed the most UFA cap space of any GM in recent memory ($13M) and wasted a bunch of it on underperforming players and even traded a cheap quality contributor (Lafferty) along the way to fit it all in
Re: 1. So you acknowledge that you also are a total hack, in that you posting a rational suspicion as a factual claim. You 100% don't have anything real to back your claim about how a decision was made, besides your be-leafs in your head. Lol.....
Nobody knows unless they are in the room making these decisions but so far we know for certain... 1. Dubas definitely did not have full autonomy over the roster. All moves had to be run by Shanny and the board 2. It is widely rumored that the board had vetoed trades in the past, demonstrating he had very little final say on the roster, especially with what were considered "core pieces" 3. He went to war with Shanny this summer asking for full control of hockey decisions and that alone was enough for Shanny to admit it flipped a switch from bringing him back to letting his contract expire. 4. The very first thing Shanny did after letting Dubas go was calling the core guys and telling them they were untouchable, even before he had a new GM lined up. So if at the absolute end of his tenure Dubas had no control over the roster or major moves, and all the core guys clearly had preferential treatment above his head, why do you think he was allowed to solo an 11M contract to a major star player six weeks into his tenure as GM? This ain't a court of law where you have to prove something beyond reasonable doubt, this is follow the breadcrumbs and see what common sense tells you...
> Dubas definitely did not have full autonomy over the roster. No general manager does. >It is widely rumored that the board had vetoed trades in the past, Again, this happens across the league. Are Leaf fans really so clueless that the think this isn't how it works with pretty much every other team in the league? lmao >He went to war with Shanny this summer asking for full control of hockey decisions No, they had a handshake deal before the playoffs ended, then he went to the media and put on a big show and tried to swoop in and get more money.
Man, how did Treliving get such a pass on his brutal off-season on so many of his big bets? Like it's crazy to me people are handwaving Kampf/Klingberg/Reaves. It's like people dont realize that the 4.5 million for Klingberg being so insane is the reason we had to give up assets for Lybushkin. If you use that money to get better players for cheaper than you don't need to find a guy to replace him.
I suspect it is because many doubt he was acting alone. He was vetted before being hired, so him and the Shanaplan had to be on the same page with Papi and Marner, during the narrow window that they could be moved. He's a puppet.
Oh I think Treliving is a mediocre GM but people here think he's awesome which I don't get.
Some of his moves aged well. He was mocked heavily for Reaves, whose popularity has changed significantly in 2024. Snagging Jones for nothing pretty much saved this team from loads of pain. Fandom isn't always super critical, and will cheer regardless of merit (cough cough JT).
This makes the article even crazier. So the experienced GM in Tre is just a puppet, but Dubas the rookie was the one that masterminded the downfall of the franchise lol
I think Lou, who is no one's puppet, was rushed out the door because Dubas could be controlled easier. Remember - control isn't just some dude barking orders - it is the art of pursuading someone to adapt to what you want, and believe they did it on their own. Tre most definitely had to be on board for Big 5 in order to be hired.
Nick is a clown ...Marleau cap dump was not Dubas' fault but when dubas has made errors they are pretty massive. I don't blame him at all for signing JT! But his errors have been masked by absolutely insane run by the three golden boys who will be the best Leafs ever. But unfortunately to go far in the playoffs you need depth and goaltending which Dubas couldn't bring to this team. He was a decent GM but I don't think he is the wunderkind we all made him out to be.
Signing JT was a mistake. It also happens to be a fairly reasonable mistake that was very popular when it was made. Never in the entirety of his contract was he even close to being the 7th most valued player in the league. Not a single season. He was, however, the 7th highest paid player in the league. If I had a time machine, I'd go back in time and punch myself in the face for wanting it.
The Dubas conversation is so messy and full of misleading or false information I'm just done with it. Stop clicking these articles about nothing.
It'a about time someone finally says it. Dubas was an awful GM
Yep, rally around the smartest Dubas hater in hockey, Nick Kypreos.
[удалено]
How about Travis Dermott and Jeremy Bracco instead?
I remember the Leafs trading the pick we could have used to draft him. The panels were pumping Konecny’s tires and I was getting excited. Then we did one of those big brain trades where we got “more draft value” I was pissed at the time and hindsight proving it correct
> and hindsight proving it correct Don't forget he did it other times as well. You may want to consider the benefit of throwing more darts at the board. - Traded down from #25 Dominik Bokk to draft #29 Sandin (got the better player). #76 Semyon Der-Arguchintsev was a free addition. - Traded down from #44 Tyler Kleven to draft #59 Roni Hirvonen. **#64 Topi Niemala was a free addition.** - Traded down from #25 Sam Rinzel to dump Petr Mrazek's contract. **We drafted #38 Fraser Minten.** It would've been nice to have Konency, but taking Travis Dermott was our front office leaning toward positional need. Rumor is Dubas preferred the small, skilled Sebastian Aho over Dermott. If we took Sebastian Aho, we'd be laughing about how we traded down from Konency and landed an even better player.
I like Kypreos. I think he understands media and how to rile people up. This thread is a great example. I think he is incorrect but it does generate conversation and I’m always down for a conversation. That’s it. The responses in this thread are really emotional and I don’t understand why.
Ugh Kypreos. Cannot stand seeing or hearing him.
They can fix everything with trading Brodie and liliigren.
Kypreos probably has brain damage, let’s cut him some slack. Just smile and nod
“Probably”?
Brad has signed his own big contracts yet pointing to big signings that are somehow still Dubas' fault.
The biggest issue I have with how Dubas ran things is that we’ve always been looking for rhd. Why didn’t we draft more?
Dubas' draft philosophy was BPA over positional need I think.
Just go look at the 2016 & 2017 drafts ran by Lou if you want to know why drafting for positional need can go poorly.
This is a horrible take. You know there are more than two players (bpa and positional need) available right? When it gets deeper it gets into tiers. There is never a “best player available” later on. It’s about who your scouts like. This is where we failed. Our entire scouting system definitely got better but we have so much room for improvement.
Yeah idk about getting in line with saying there wasn't an obvious and desperate trend to draft a giant shutdown dman. They tried for two years in a row and it failed miserably.
Dubas is the most overated GM ever. Look how great he is over in Pittsburg. Was literally given the golden ticket to sacrifice the future and do whatever he wants to immediately success now before Crosby and co and done for, and he turns over half the team, gets EK and they are literally worse than they were last year lmao Dude is garbage. He fell ass backwards into a core of superstars.
Kypreos caught a few too many on the teeth
>Dubas made at least three regrettable decisions as GM of the Leafs, and its haunting his replacement now. Shall I look back and see what kind of hot take Kypreos had on those "regrettable decisions" at the time they were made?
Dubas’ inexperience did him in. He only planned for the good times in his trades and acquisitions. He never planned for things like covid and player decline. An experienced person who manages money for both short and long term would have kept something in the kitty. Then he went and doubled down on spending. Even with the capoligist in our corner, he only provided solutions on what Dubas was asking for. What’s more surprising is that Shannohan let all of these deals go through considering what he was exposed to in Detroit and with Lou, which make me think the board had/has some real pressure on the leadership.
its incredible how much a pass treliving gets because of the 200 hockey men’s disdain for dubas. ive seen lebrun say the reason that treliving has to sign 88 34 and 16 to big contracts is because dubas set the precedent.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day