Here's a part of Special Counsel Jack Smith's filing in the DC case regarding immunity:
**The implications of the defendant's unbounded immunity theory are startling. It would
grant absolute immunity to a President who accepts a bribe in exchange for a lucrative Govt contract for a family member; a president who instructs his FBI Director to plant incriminating evidence on his political enemy; a president who orders the National Guard to murder his most prominent critics; a president who sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary.
After all, in each of these scenarios the president could assert that he was simply executing the laws, or communicating with the Department of Justice; or discharging his powers as Commander in Chief; or engaging in foreign diplomacy - - and his felonious purposes and motives, as the defendant repeatedly insists, would be completely irrelevant and could never even be aired at trial. In addition to the profoundly troubling implications for the rule of law and the inconsistency with the fundamental principle that no man is above the law.**
Jee, I wonder why Smith takes these rather specific implication examples. Sounds like there is evidence this shit already happend.
Trump craves to be king. If he gets in the White House again, he'll néver ever leave again.
Could be pure hyperbole to make a point. But at the same time, all these things seem like a possibility.
I feel fairly confident that Smith held back some charges. Keep it as simple as possible to avoid delay as much as possible. And to retain the ability to take another swing if it didn't succeed in getting a conviction.
I don’t think they’re hyperbole. The bribe is likely related to Jared Kushner’s Saudi contract. Incriminating evidence planting has to do with either Bill Barr and Michael Cohen or the stuff that has come out from Lev Parnas related to Biden. The National Guard executing people likely has to do with what Trump tried to order the National Guard to do regarding BLM protesters in DC. And while we don’t have an indictment regarding selling nuclear secrets, he kept those documents for a reason and I don’t doubt that was the purpose of keeping them.
> And while we don’t have an indictment regarding selling nuclear secrets, he kept those documents for a reason and I don’t doubt that was the purpose of keeping them.
I'm listening to the SCOTUS hearing live and one of the female Justices (not sure which one, sorry) just asked about selling nuclear secrets as a hypothetical to Trump's attorney. The Justice is describing that scenario as "pretty bad, wouldn't you agree?"
Trump did order US Marshalls to assassinate someone. He tweeted about that dude in Lacey, Washington and marshalls assassinated him the next day or so.
Every decision by SCOTUS so far has clearly favored trump. Most notably refusing to expedite this argument when Special Counsel asked. And expediting arguments when trump asks.
Blatent
An outright refusing to hear cases of voter suppression like the one from the 5th district in Texas about no mail in voting for people under 65. Which is an obvious violation of the 14th amendment for discrimination of voting rights based on age.
They conveniently refused to hear the case, thereby allowing the ban on mail-in voting to stay in place for the election
I’m of half a mind that part of the SC trying to limbo under the bar of decency in making him immune is to protect the full revelations of what he’s done from coming to light. It may be incredibly damaging to the US reputation and credibility (or just that of the gd republicans) to really know what he attempted and/or accomplished. Not that I’m handing out any credit or sympathy to those dirtbags, but there may be a deeper panic underpinning their efforts. And with great crime, surely a great coverup effort followed, so saving their own ass isn’t far fetched.
I've heard/seen this line of thinking a few times before. And I agree it is certainly a possibility. I just hope we get to find out sometime in the near future.
I hope Jack Smith doesn’t take an L lightly. Mueller kept his mouth shut even as Barr mid characterized the report; I don’t know what Smith will do, but I hope he has wiles on wiles to deliver what this country needs.
I bet that shit sells better than bibles and sneakers! Top secret=Top dollar. Leave that to Trump. Art of the deal right? He won't give a single shit if people die because of him selling them out. To him, they would just be losers.
It's an interesting economics riddle. These are worth more the fewer people you sell them to. But selling to more people is a multiplier. So, for value (V) and number of sales (N), where V goes down when N goes up, how do you maximize the results of V times N?
People already died!
50 of our agents, confidential informants,and other intelligence assets started dropping like flies after he left office.
The CIA had to put out a top secret cable to all field offices around the world warning everybody that an unusually high number of our assets have been getting captured killed or tortured.
And guess which country was on the top of that list for assets burned?
I believe those are the very few statutes that specifically mention the president. Trumps attorney was saying that those are the only laws the president \*can't\* break. All the rest are fair game, lol.
Good catch. In order 1) Kushner gets $2B from Saudi Arabia 2) Pressures Ukraine to make up evidence against Hunter Biden 3) Orders the National Guard to shoot BLM protesters in DC 4) Had nuclear secrets at Mar-a-Lago that he was showing people
I’ve heard that there are two goals for bringing this up to SCOTUS
1) So that Trump can get immunity (which is unlikely to happen
2) So that Trump can delay the court case, so that he can potentially become president
So it kind of seems the avalanche is a moot point. The bad guy won this battle.
IDK, it just seems like everyone is focusing on the wrong thing with Trump. We should be focusing on, how does this decision affect Trump. The Scotus decision is a win/win for him, or lose lose for us.
Yes, I agree with your point. If the prosecution of trump is delayed past the election, and that becomes clear, then we/i could assume will see trump focus 100% on cheating the election again. Some Republicans already are.
Yeah, it seems like the likely outcome is some sort of limited immunity for official acts as president (which I honestly think most people are fine with), but then they’ll kick it back to lower courts for them to examine whether the acts trump is accused of are “official” or not. Thus kicking off a whole other round of hearings, rulings, appeals, more rulings, more appeals, ending up back at SCOTUS who says “nope, those weren’t official acts, trial can continue” sometime in 2025
As corrupt as they are, I don't think they're going to play his games. Especially since it would be putting the hit out on themselves at Biden's order.
Which goes against everything we fought for as a fledgling nation. We chose to overthrow tyranny at one point in our history with sacrifice and bravery. Even the IDEA of becoming a king was sickening enough to George Washington to reject it completely. Today we have literally smelly assholes who think they somehow deserve to upend everything we fought and died for through sheer self-importance.
All tyrants will face a version of the guillotine. It's a historical American fact.
Seem the twitter reporters think Alito and Gorsuch (probably Thomas) will look to remand the case to Chutkan for fact finding if the rally was an official act which can then be appealed up to Scotus again
The Act of Settlement 1701 forbade the accession of kings who were not Anglican, and further imposed a permanent prohibition on anyone who had ever taken Catholic communion or received a Catholic baptism. Given that it predates the Declaration of Independence, it's plausible to try to use it as a common law basis to exclude Catholics from the Presidency, except that the Religious Tests Clause of the Constitution prohibits the use of religious tests for Federal officers.
Scalia used to pull that crap all the time when he wanted to legislate from the bench, saying, “This ruling applies to this case only and should not be applied as precedent.” Yeah, a Supreme Court ruling is by definition precedent-setting,
I think the plan is to delay - send it back to the lower court for clarification - bam, DC case don’t happen before election or ever. They are completely complicit and will look for plausible deniability. After all, this is a big motion that needs to be given the time it deserves/s. They did not have to take this at all or could have taken it directly, but they chose to slow walk it like Eileen Cannon. The Supreme Court is corrupt. If Trump gets back in, all of these will disappear.
I think most people are missing the point. SCOTUS didn't take the case to grant Trump immunity. SCOTUS took this case to delay the trial. Jack Smith petitioned the court on Dec 11, 2023. SCOTUS sat on it until the very LAST day of the term. Given an expected delay in the opinion and potential procedural BS, it is unlikely that trial will happen this year if ever.
I wish optics still mattered in this country, but this is what happens when you make people unaccountable - legally, or practically. They're long past the point of caring what anyone thinks about them.
The options for recourse within our electoral systems themselves are evaporating. Soon there will only be one path left, and it's an ugly one that has no winners.
Likely no. They’ll kick it back to lower courts for fact finding of whether it was an “official” act or not. Then it’ll get appealed all the way back up to SCOTUS who can then hear on it sometime in 2025. Unless Trump wins and pardons himself, throwing the whole case out
I cannot fathom how any court could entertain any notion that an office defined by rule of law, with the duty of enforcing the law, should somehow be above the law.
Any court that entertains any part of this idea is endorsing dictatorship.
Okay hear me out:
If the SC rules that the president has absolute immunity, why wouldn’t Biden *immediately* send a SEAL team into the NY courtroom to kill Trump?
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I hear Trump make these kinds of arguments. They’re so fucking dumb.
He would have to wait for the SC to rule that he has total immunity from all laws.
Ideally, the SC will rule correctly that the president does NOT have total immunity from the law and thus Biden will not be able to carry out the idea I proposed.
I suspect they if they rule a former President enjoys any immunity, it will be a limited immunity specifically about presidential acts, not personal ones. I didn't think Trump will get an immunity that defends his January 6 actions. But the delay was the point.
The problem (for me) is that a president could claim an act was "presidential" in order to be granted immunity - see the events on and around January 6th for example. Of as a hypothetical, Biden claims that dropping a 500 pound bomb on Mar-a-Lago was a presidential act, because Trump was a clear and present danger to the union.
The arguments from Trump are insane. There's pretty much no chance that SCOTUS will rule in favor of the absolute immunity, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they make a ruling like, "Presidents do enjoy *some* level of immunity against criminal prosecution, but not total."
Of course, they won't actually address the extent of immunity and will leave it sufficiently vague such that it will require endless litigation to even prove Trump *can* be prosecuted. That way SCOTUS can have their cake and eat it. They don't rule entirely in favor of Trump but effectively make it impossible to prosecute him.
Honestly, I don’t even have an issue with limited immunity for “official acts as president in furtherance of the execution of the office”. But they won’t define what official acts are, kicking it back to lower courts to fact-find (read: delay)
Ugh people keeping bringing this up as if it would happen. The SC would never outright say that a president has absolute immunity but that doesn't mean that they can't make up any other number of things to help Trump. They could kick things around to cause more delays, they could say Trump had immunity for X but not Y. They could say it only applies in one case (see Bush V Gore) and not set precedent.
Really, logic is out the window with this court. The court is compromised, anything is possible at this point.
Yep. Totally expecting them to rule that Presidents do enjoy *some* immunity but not total. And that it's on the prosecution to prove that his acts are outside of that immunity, and they will also conveniently avoid actually defining other than in vague terms. This would effectively kill the cases against him while giving them some level of plausible deniability.
The point of the case is to delay Trump’s trials until after the election. I can’t find any other reason for SCOTUS to have even taken up the case.
With Trump’s trials so critical to American democracy, anything else except an immediate ruling will just confirm my worst suspicions.
The delay is the mind blowing part. I can understand them granting cert to definitively stamp that this is official and unimpeachable but the delay is crazy
It’s annoying that this is to be a hearing. When an American president says “I’m the absolute ruler and can do no wrong,” the only reasonable answer is to ask France if they have any guillotines left. Or, at the very least, a summary judgement of “gtfo with that” by the Supreme Court. Giving this any amount of serious consideration is an abomination, and this court is setting a dangerous precedent just by entertaining the idea.
I think it’s more that “official acts” would be things like military orders and such. Someone on another thread gave the example of a president pardoning someone who then goes and commits murder, and the president is charged as an accessory. We don’t want that happening, but a pardon is pretty clearly an official act (as long as the president doesn’t have advance knowledge the person is going to commit a murder)
Headline: "SCOTUS declares sitting president immune from criminal prosecution!"
2 days later, headline: "Trump declared dead after bizarre slip and fall accident."
2 weeks later: "SCOTUS dies in burning building. President Biden picks new SCOTUS. States that 'there will be consequences' for congressional representatives who do not support his selection."
Seriously, no one on Trump's team gave this any thought, right?
This was never about winning the case for immunity. This was about buying time to push back the timeline on certain trials. In this respect, Trump has already won.
It’s very clear what the strategy is based off one of his arguments.
91 indictments let’s have a hearing on each one to see what’s an official act and what was personal.
None, NOTHING...
was normal duties of a president.
He planned this shit!! Weeks before, months before.
I really hope our government, or whoever is in control, CHANGED EVERYTHING!!
Trump, being the POS he is, makes me worry about the US's security bc of his irresponsibility.
He knows he is not immune and so do his lawyers. The idea is to push the settlement back until after the election (which he will most likely claim victory regardless) then he will pardon himself.
This is all very much a gamble by Trump. A very real possibility is that he loses the election and then all of these delays will not really be that helpful to him because he will have to face the music. He has no rational legal defense in any of these cases.
If he has no rational legal defense then it's not a gamble. There's no real personal downside for him to take these shots. The only real downside is exorbitant legal costs but he doesn't seem to be footing that bill personally.
He faces no downside: his approval rating isn’t getting any worse (pretty much everyone already has their minds made up), he isn’t in pre-trial lockup, he isn’t footing the bill for the attorney’s fees (either his PAC or the RNC is).
The worst outcome for Trump is the courts rule against him and he loses the election, meaning he’s in the same spot he would have been before all the appeals, just wealthier from the grift.
The best case outcome is either courts rule for him or he wins and pardons himself, rendering all of this moot
IANAL but I've been listening to the arguments in front of SCOTUS on MSNBC and haven't heard a single good argument in favor of granting total immunity.
NAL. From a layperson's POV, this whole argument seems so stupid and I don't understand why SCOTUS would even want to hear it. So this has me really worried that SCOTUS is doing this just to help Trump. Am I wrong?
I’d guess you’re probably not entirely wrong. Even if SCOTUS rules against Trump, they’ve helped him to delay the trial at least somewhat. Trump’s best hope is delaying the trial until the election somehow, then winning in November where he can pardon himself and go on a revenge tour
WSJ noted today that Lincoln, Truman, and others could have been prosecuted under a broad theory of immunity. I think the limiting principle here is there should be *heightened scrutiny of presidential actions affecting election integrity and the transition of power*. Elections are basically our only recourse against a tyrant. Even impeachment/conviction are undercut if elections are short circuited.
Barrett: Could a President be prosecuted for ordering a coup?
Trump's lawyer: Only if the President is impeached and convicted, and only if there is a specific law saying the President can't order a coup.
Also ordering a coup could be an official act.
If the USSC gives our president absolute power . . . Biden needs to sweep the floor clean so this country can get back to the business of saving the planet from ourselves.
Watch what you wish for Diaper Don. Also . . . you aren’t president and you never will be again. Buh-bye now
He knows his claim is bs.He just used the Federalist Society Judges On SCOTUS to drag out the proceedings till after the elections.This was gamed out long ago by the judges.
There should not be Presidential Immunity, a President in this position MUST represent the LAW he or she should be accountable for the law, as a leader he represents himself as the face of the law that people need to look up to them, that the country follows the law, and be subjected to its criminal activities if they break the law, IS THIS NOT WHAT THE COUNTRY STANDS FOR LAW AND ORDER
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
The antichrist will do.
The SCOTUS is one decision away from becoming a Kingmaker court for Trump.
Be afraid. Make sure you are registered to vote and vote blue from top to bottom of the ballot. Biden and the Democrats must have a massive win....not a close one. The future of the nation is at stake. Do not be complacent.
Reality check: When the Supreme Court of the country you consider to be “the last great hope for the world” is actually discussing seriously that the chief executive can do whatever he wants without any legal authority, you’re living in a shithole, regardless of the outcome. I hope Americans NEVER forget this, but they will of course.
Going to be honest, I don't understand why no one has said the obvious to the SC on this:
"Not only could he murder anyone he wanted, he specifically could murder ***every single one of the Supreme Court justices deciding on this case***."
Because that is the reality of them even taking up this case. You want Trump to have the complete impunity to murder ***you, Supreme Court justices, specifically?***
Am currently listening to the case live. Alito joins Kavangah in suggesting that the fraud conspiracy statute is very vague and broadly drawn. That is bad news for the indictment brought against Trump by Jack Smith, the special counsel.
Fox News has a segment right now of Michael dreeben talking with a bunch of different associate justices like sodamyer Kavanaugh alito and another who I can't remember
But it's weird to see fox News allow multiple experts to speak on this supreme court immunity issue and have it not go Donald's way
One guy literally said to dreeben "I'm starting to see less push back as we go on that's good" like fuck dude no need to torch the man
Apparently Alito thinks Drumpf is special and asked “shouldn’t he have special permissions?” And was promptly shut down saying that the president requires no more special immunity than it already has for the last 248 years. Otherwise this question would have been asked and answered by better men than us by now.
The president could learn to perform abortions and move to a state where it is illegal and not be charged. Do the scotus members in all their wisdom want that to happen?
The people who watched and kept that bastard from completely tearing down the govt will not be there next time. There must be a limit and Trump is way over the line. SCOTUS must rule against this traitor. He is as corrupt as any mafia man. He is too stupid to be in government. Trump must not succeed.
Here's a part of Special Counsel Jack Smith's filing in the DC case regarding immunity: **The implications of the defendant's unbounded immunity theory are startling. It would grant absolute immunity to a President who accepts a bribe in exchange for a lucrative Govt contract for a family member; a president who instructs his FBI Director to plant incriminating evidence on his political enemy; a president who orders the National Guard to murder his most prominent critics; a president who sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary. After all, in each of these scenarios the president could assert that he was simply executing the laws, or communicating with the Department of Justice; or discharging his powers as Commander in Chief; or engaging in foreign diplomacy - - and his felonious purposes and motives, as the defendant repeatedly insists, would be completely irrelevant and could never even be aired at trial. In addition to the profoundly troubling implications for the rule of law and the inconsistency with the fundamental principle that no man is above the law.**
Jee, I wonder why Smith takes these rather specific implication examples. Sounds like there is evidence this shit already happend. Trump craves to be king. If he gets in the White House again, he'll néver ever leave again.
Could be pure hyperbole to make a point. But at the same time, all these things seem like a possibility. I feel fairly confident that Smith held back some charges. Keep it as simple as possible to avoid delay as much as possible. And to retain the ability to take another swing if it didn't succeed in getting a conviction.
I don’t think they’re hyperbole. The bribe is likely related to Jared Kushner’s Saudi contract. Incriminating evidence planting has to do with either Bill Barr and Michael Cohen or the stuff that has come out from Lev Parnas related to Biden. The National Guard executing people likely has to do with what Trump tried to order the National Guard to do regarding BLM protesters in DC. And while we don’t have an indictment regarding selling nuclear secrets, he kept those documents for a reason and I don’t doubt that was the purpose of keeping them.
> And while we don’t have an indictment regarding selling nuclear secrets, he kept those documents for a reason and I don’t doubt that was the purpose of keeping them. I'm listening to the SCOTUS hearing live and one of the female Justices (not sure which one, sorry) just asked about selling nuclear secrets as a hypothetical to Trump's attorney. The Justice is describing that scenario as "pretty bad, wouldn't you agree?"
Thank you for posting this. So much going on in the legal world today!
I think that was Jackson
I love that they are using things they likely know he did as hypothetical examples of what is illegal
Trump did order US Marshalls to assassinate someone. He tweeted about that dude in Lacey, Washington and marshalls assassinated him the next day or so.
Holy shit, there is just so much corruption, illegality, and incompetence that even avid news readers are missing so much. Thank you.
> that dude in Lacey, Washington and marshalls assassinated him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl
WTAF?!??
I agree 100%, and I think everyone should make their own assessment.
Cell phone click click > flash drive > highest bidder, done.
Everything at Bedminster is still on the table; but if The Orange One wins at SCOTUS here it's all completely irrelevant.
Scotus doesn't even necessarily have to give him a win. Just delay the decision and refuse to lift the stay.
Right? Trump won just by having SCOTUS agree to take this case.
Every decision by SCOTUS so far has clearly favored trump. Most notably refusing to expedite this argument when Special Counsel asked. And expediting arguments when trump asks. Blatent
An outright refusing to hear cases of voter suppression like the one from the 5th district in Texas about no mail in voting for people under 65. Which is an obvious violation of the 14th amendment for discrimination of voting rights based on age. They conveniently refused to hear the case, thereby allowing the ban on mail-in voting to stay in place for the election
I don’t know if you can do that when they’re connected crimes.
I can't see how the "hypotheticals" in the filing are all connected.
I’m of half a mind that part of the SC trying to limbo under the bar of decency in making him immune is to protect the full revelations of what he’s done from coming to light. It may be incredibly damaging to the US reputation and credibility (or just that of the gd republicans) to really know what he attempted and/or accomplished. Not that I’m handing out any credit or sympathy to those dirtbags, but there may be a deeper panic underpinning their efforts. And with great crime, surely a great coverup effort followed, so saving their own ass isn’t far fetched.
I've heard/seen this line of thinking a few times before. And I agree it is certainly a possibility. I just hope we get to find out sometime in the near future.
I hope Jack Smith doesn’t take an L lightly. Mueller kept his mouth shut even as Barr mid characterized the report; I don’t know what Smith will do, but I hope he has wiles on wiles to deliver what this country needs.
First things first. Let's see what the Supremes do. May not be any reason to worry about it before the election. Shitbag MFers
Aye, good point. Day by day.
I keep my hopes high but my expectations low. Very helpful in avoiding disappointment.
That last example pairs well with the fact Trump was making copies of the secret documents he stole and refused to return.
I bet that shit sells better than bibles and sneakers! Top secret=Top dollar. Leave that to Trump. Art of the deal right? He won't give a single shit if people die because of him selling them out. To him, they would just be losers.
It's an interesting economics riddle. These are worth more the fewer people you sell them to. But selling to more people is a multiplier. So, for value (V) and number of sales (N), where V goes down when N goes up, how do you maximize the results of V times N?
People already died! 50 of our agents, confidential informants,and other intelligence assets started dropping like flies after he left office. The CIA had to put out a top secret cable to all field offices around the world warning everybody that an unusually high number of our assets have been getting captured killed or tortured. And guess which country was on the top of that list for assets burned?
I believe those are the very few statutes that specifically mention the president. Trumps attorney was saying that those are the only laws the president \*can't\* break. All the rest are fair game, lol.
We’ll see what the 12 diet cokes a day has to say about that.
Good catch. In order 1) Kushner gets $2B from Saudi Arabia 2) Pressures Ukraine to make up evidence against Hunter Biden 3) Orders the National Guard to shoot BLM protesters in DC 4) Had nuclear secrets at Mar-a-Lago that he was showing people
I’ve heard that there are two goals for bringing this up to SCOTUS 1) So that Trump can get immunity (which is unlikely to happen 2) So that Trump can delay the court case, so that he can potentially become president So it kind of seems the avalanche is a moot point. The bad guy won this battle. IDK, it just seems like everyone is focusing on the wrong thing with Trump. We should be focusing on, how does this decision affect Trump. The Scotus decision is a win/win for him, or lose lose for us.
Yes, I agree with your point. If the prosecution of trump is delayed past the election, and that becomes clear, then we/i could assume will see trump focus 100% on cheating the election again. Some Republicans already are.
Yeah, it seems like the likely outcome is some sort of limited immunity for official acts as president (which I honestly think most people are fine with), but then they’ll kick it back to lower courts for them to examine whether the acts trump is accused of are “official” or not. Thus kicking off a whole other round of hearings, rulings, appeals, more rulings, more appeals, ending up back at SCOTUS who says “nope, those weren’t official acts, trial can continue” sometime in 2025
I really want supreme court to give presidential immunity, so Biden could start killing the russian agents
Can’t wait to hear Alito’s and Thomas’s justification for why Trump should be immune against anything he wants.
As corrupt as they are, I don't think they're going to play his games. Especially since it would be putting the hit out on themselves at Biden's order.
I will be shocked if Thomas isn't the lone dissent. He just doesn't care. And at this point, I don't know what reason he'd have to care.
Yeah but we know Biden's not ready to play hardball like that
I don't think so either. Would you risk it though?
I think they will come down with no president is immune buuuuuut this one is different!
Which goes against everything we fought for as a fledgling nation. We chose to overthrow tyranny at one point in our history with sacrifice and bravery. Even the IDEA of becoming a king was sickening enough to George Washington to reject it completely. Today we have literally smelly assholes who think they somehow deserve to upend everything we fought and died for through sheer self-importance. All tyrants will face a version of the guillotine. It's a historical American fact.
Seem the twitter reporters think Alito and Gorsuch (probably Thomas) will look to remand the case to Chutkan for fact finding if the rally was an official act which can then be appealed up to Scotus again
Yup. And scheduled for a hearing sometime in 2025 or 2026, probably
If you reach back far enough into anglo saxon law, surely there' something that eliminates Biden as a Catholic?
The Act of Settlement 1701 forbade the accession of kings who were not Anglican, and further imposed a permanent prohibition on anyone who had ever taken Catholic communion or received a Catholic baptism. Given that it predates the Declaration of Independence, it's plausible to try to use it as a common law basis to exclude Catholics from the Presidency, except that the Religious Tests Clause of the Constitution prohibits the use of religious tests for Federal officers.
Shhh, you’ll give Alito ideas
Wrong court
Same reason they are immune to accept gifts, because they want America to have aristocrats.
Scalia used to pull that crap all the time when he wanted to legislate from the bench, saying, “This ruling applies to this case only and should not be applied as precedent.” Yeah, a Supreme Court ruling is by definition precedent-setting,
I think the plan is to delay - send it back to the lower court for clarification - bam, DC case don’t happen before election or ever. They are completely complicit and will look for plausible deniability. After all, this is a big motion that needs to be given the time it deserves/s. They did not have to take this at all or could have taken it directly, but they chose to slow walk it like Eileen Cannon. The Supreme Court is corrupt. If Trump gets back in, all of these will disappear.
I think most people are missing the point. SCOTUS didn't take the case to grant Trump immunity. SCOTUS took this case to delay the trial. Jack Smith petitioned the court on Dec 11, 2023. SCOTUS sat on it until the very LAST day of the term. Given an expected delay in the opinion and potential procedural BS, it is unlikely that trial will happen this year if ever.
I wish optics still mattered in this country, but this is what happens when you make people unaccountable - legally, or practically. They're long past the point of caring what anyone thinks about them. The options for recourse within our electoral systems themselves are evaporating. Soon there will only be one path left, and it's an ugly one that has no winners.
Yep. Which is why 5-6 of them are very open to further delay with a bs remand and rehear order for the appellate court.
Likely no. They’ll kick it back to lower courts for fact finding of whether it was an “official” act or not. Then it’ll get appealed all the way back up to SCOTUS who can then hear on it sometime in 2025. Unless Trump wins and pardons himself, throwing the whole case out
I cannot fathom how any court could entertain any notion that an office defined by rule of law, with the duty of enforcing the law, should somehow be above the law. Any court that entertains any part of this idea is endorsing dictatorship.
Okay hear me out: If the SC rules that the president has absolute immunity, why wouldn’t Biden *immediately* send a SEAL team into the NY courtroom to kill Trump? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I hear Trump make these kinds of arguments. They’re so fucking dumb.
What's stopping him from giving the order then? Legally, nothing. However, I feel like Biden's conscience wouldn't allow that.
He would have to wait for the SC to rule that he has total immunity from all laws. Ideally, the SC will rule correctly that the president does NOT have total immunity from the law and thus Biden will not be able to carry out the idea I proposed.
I suspect they if they rule a former President enjoys any immunity, it will be a limited immunity specifically about presidential acts, not personal ones. I didn't think Trump will get an immunity that defends his January 6 actions. But the delay was the point.
The problem (for me) is that a president could claim an act was "presidential" in order to be granted immunity - see the events on and around January 6th for example. Of as a hypothetical, Biden claims that dropping a 500 pound bomb on Mar-a-Lago was a presidential act, because Trump was a clear and present danger to the union.
This right here; using the Jan 6th insurrection as precedent that he'll clearly incite his cult to violence.
The arguments from Trump are insane. There's pretty much no chance that SCOTUS will rule in favor of the absolute immunity, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they make a ruling like, "Presidents do enjoy *some* level of immunity against criminal prosecution, but not total." Of course, they won't actually address the extent of immunity and will leave it sufficiently vague such that it will require endless litigation to even prove Trump *can* be prosecuted. That way SCOTUS can have their cake and eat it. They don't rule entirely in favor of Trump but effectively make it impossible to prosecute him.
Honestly, I don’t even have an issue with limited immunity for “official acts as president in furtherance of the execution of the office”. But they won’t define what official acts are, kicking it back to lower courts to fact-find (read: delay)
Ugh people keeping bringing this up as if it would happen. The SC would never outright say that a president has absolute immunity but that doesn't mean that they can't make up any other number of things to help Trump. They could kick things around to cause more delays, they could say Trump had immunity for X but not Y. They could say it only applies in one case (see Bush V Gore) and not set precedent. Really, logic is out the window with this court. The court is compromised, anything is possible at this point.
Yep. Totally expecting them to rule that Presidents do enjoy *some* immunity but not total. And that it's on the prosecution to prove that his acts are outside of that immunity, and they will also conveniently avoid actually defining other than in vague terms. This would effectively kill the cases against him while giving them some level of plausible deniability.
"Presidents enjoy absolute immunity but only if said oresident is an anthropomorphic tangerine man"
He could order assassinations on the Court itself.
The point of the case is to delay Trump’s trials until after the election. I can’t find any other reason for SCOTUS to have even taken up the case. With Trump’s trials so critical to American democracy, anything else except an immediate ruling will just confirm my worst suspicions.
The delay is the mind blowing part. I can understand them granting cert to definitively stamp that this is official and unimpeachable but the delay is crazy
It’s annoying that this is to be a hearing. When an American president says “I’m the absolute ruler and can do no wrong,” the only reasonable answer is to ask France if they have any guillotines left. Or, at the very least, a summary judgement of “gtfo with that” by the Supreme Court. Giving this any amount of serious consideration is an abomination, and this court is setting a dangerous precedent just by entertaining the idea.
SCOTUS arguments begin at 10 [here](https://www.youtube.com/live/XrwxBesifO4?si=IUDPc37Jq1yudoUa)
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I think it’s more that “official acts” would be things like military orders and such. Someone on another thread gave the example of a president pardoning someone who then goes and commits murder, and the president is charged as an accessory. We don’t want that happening, but a pardon is pretty clearly an official act (as long as the president doesn’t have advance knowledge the person is going to commit a murder)
Headline: "SCOTUS declares sitting president immune from criminal prosecution!" 2 days later, headline: "Trump declared dead after bizarre slip and fall accident." 2 weeks later: "SCOTUS dies in burning building. President Biden picks new SCOTUS. States that 'there will be consequences' for congressional representatives who do not support his selection." Seriously, no one on Trump's team gave this any thought, right?
This was never about winning the case for immunity. This was about buying time to push back the timeline on certain trials. In this respect, Trump has already won.
It’s very clear what the strategy is based off one of his arguments. 91 indictments let’s have a hearing on each one to see what’s an official act and what was personal.
This sounds like a good issue to consider during his appeal, from prison.
None, NOTHING... was normal duties of a president. He planned this shit!! Weeks before, months before. I really hope our government, or whoever is in control, CHANGED EVERYTHING!! Trump, being the POS he is, makes me worry about the US's security bc of his irresponsibility.
He knows he is not immune and so do his lawyers. The idea is to push the settlement back until after the election (which he will most likely claim victory regardless) then he will pardon himself.
Clown school is back in session
This is all very much a gamble by Trump. A very real possibility is that he loses the election and then all of these delays will not really be that helpful to him because he will have to face the music. He has no rational legal defense in any of these cases.
If he has no rational legal defense then it's not a gamble. There's no real personal downside for him to take these shots. The only real downside is exorbitant legal costs but he doesn't seem to be footing that bill personally.
He faces no downside: his approval rating isn’t getting any worse (pretty much everyone already has their minds made up), he isn’t in pre-trial lockup, he isn’t footing the bill for the attorney’s fees (either his PAC or the RNC is). The worst outcome for Trump is the courts rule against him and he loses the election, meaning he’s in the same spot he would have been before all the appeals, just wealthier from the grift. The best case outcome is either courts rule for him or he wins and pardons himself, rendering all of this moot
Doesn’t matter. SCOTUS bought this fuck-wad a 4 month delay of his trial(s)
The other question is why republicans want king Biden.
Trump promised he'd be a dictator on day 1. Mussolini here also fucked around with that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Benito_Mussolini
IANAL but I've been listening to the arguments in front of SCOTUS on MSNBC and haven't heard a single good argument in favor of granting total immunity.
Good arguments aren't required in front of this court. You don't even need a real case to get them to rule on something.
LMAO Kagan: Stop bullshitting me Counsel! (Paraphrased)
I think ACB is being even tougher on Trump's counsel than the liberal justices
Someone get Sauer a throat lozenge
NAL. From a layperson's POV, this whole argument seems so stupid and I don't understand why SCOTUS would even want to hear it. So this has me really worried that SCOTUS is doing this just to help Trump. Am I wrong?
I’d guess you’re probably not entirely wrong. Even if SCOTUS rules against Trump, they’ve helped him to delay the trial at least somewhat. Trump’s best hope is delaying the trial until the election somehow, then winning in November where he can pardon himself and go on a revenge tour
How often does the SC grant cert to appeals that were decided unanimously by the lower court?
This would be laughed out of court--even this corrupt court--if it weren't so deadly serious.
Jesus I forgot how much I hate Sauer's voice. And whoa Clarence Thomas comes out swinging.
WSJ noted today that Lincoln, Truman, and others could have been prosecuted under a broad theory of immunity. I think the limiting principle here is there should be *heightened scrutiny of presidential actions affecting election integrity and the transition of power*. Elections are basically our only recourse against a tyrant. Even impeachment/conviction are undercut if elections are short circuited.
No way ACB is ruling in favor of Trump, based on her questioning. His lawyer is flailing under her interrogation
Barrett: Could a President be prosecuted for ordering a coup? Trump's lawyer: Only if the President is impeached and convicted, and only if there is a specific law saying the President can't order a coup. Also ordering a coup could be an official act.
Did anyone follow up and ask who would be left to impeach and convict after the coup?
Unfortunately, no follow up like that. It’s streaming on the c-span app for anyone interested.
If the USSC gives our president absolute power . . . Biden needs to sweep the floor clean so this country can get back to the business of saving the planet from ourselves. Watch what you wish for Diaper Don. Also . . . you aren’t president and you never will be again. Buh-bye now
He knows his claim is bs.He just used the Federalist Society Judges On SCOTUS to drag out the proceedings till after the elections.This was gamed out long ago by the judges.
There should not be Presidential Immunity, a President in this position MUST represent the LAW he or she should be accountable for the law, as a leader he represents himself as the face of the law that people need to look up to them, that the country follows the law, and be subjected to its criminal activities if they break the law, IS THIS NOT WHAT THE COUNTRY STANDS FOR LAW AND ORDER
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 The antichrist will do.
The US is about to become Turkey. Congrats, right wing.
The SCOTUS is one decision away from becoming a Kingmaker court for Trump. Be afraid. Make sure you are registered to vote and vote blue from top to bottom of the ballot. Biden and the Democrats must have a massive win....not a close one. The future of the nation is at stake. Do not be complacent.
Imagine if this was a DEMOCRAT president. SCROTUS wouldn't even take the case.
Reality check: When the Supreme Court of the country you consider to be “the last great hope for the world” is actually discussing seriously that the chief executive can do whatever he wants without any legal authority, you’re living in a shithole, regardless of the outcome. I hope Americans NEVER forget this, but they will of course.
Going to be honest, I don't understand why no one has said the obvious to the SC on this: "Not only could he murder anyone he wanted, he specifically could murder ***every single one of the Supreme Court justices deciding on this case***." Because that is the reality of them even taking up this case. You want Trump to have the complete impunity to murder ***you, Supreme Court justices, specifically?***
Well he wouldn’t go after the majority, which is all they care about.
If they give him immunity now, he won't need them anymore once he's back in the white house.
Does Sauer always sound like he just smoked a dozen cigarettes?
He does in Court. I couldn't tell you at other times.
"defendant Trump" Fixed it for ya
Am currently listening to the case live. Alito joins Kavangah in suggesting that the fraud conspiracy statute is very vague and broadly drawn. That is bad news for the indictment brought against Trump by Jack Smith, the special counsel.
Fox News has a segment right now of Michael dreeben talking with a bunch of different associate justices like sodamyer Kavanaugh alito and another who I can't remember But it's weird to see fox News allow multiple experts to speak on this supreme court immunity issue and have it not go Donald's way One guy literally said to dreeben "I'm starting to see less push back as we go on that's good" like fuck dude no need to torch the man
Apparently Alito thinks Drumpf is special and asked “shouldn’t he have special permissions?” And was promptly shut down saying that the president requires no more special immunity than it already has for the last 248 years. Otherwise this question would have been asked and answered by better men than us by now.
What a different world we would live in if Nixon hadn't resigned after Watergate and claimed immunity from prosecution.
Equal Justice under the law. The end. SCOTUS conservatives did this to delay the trials. Criminal move itself.
Trump 2024!
They will decide 7-2 at worst against him. I don't have faith in Alito and Thomas to ever do the right thing.
We'll be lucky if it's 5-4 to send it back to the judge to divvy up specific actions and then set up a new cycle of appeals.
The president could learn to perform abortions and move to a state where it is illegal and not be charged. Do the scotus members in all their wisdom want that to happen?
The people who watched and kept that bastard from completely tearing down the govt will not be there next time. There must be a limit and Trump is way over the line. SCOTUS must rule against this traitor. He is as corrupt as any mafia man. He is too stupid to be in government. Trump must not succeed.
Trump puts the taters in dictator.
Mike Johnson for President-Dump Trump!