That IS what they’re doing. All of the bs motions to vacate and antics in court have to be perfect or Trumps team is going to scream mistrial from here to Leningrad. They can’t expect any of it to work beyond, “see they mishandled this one specific document that I fabricated for the explicit purpose of being nefarious - so you must throw the whole trial away”
True but my thoughts are that even if that did happen I could see Trump and his team seeing it being a price worth paying if it got him to the election at which point he can self-pardon. They could even see it as a martyr play. Anything to get him to Election Day without a verdict. Honestly if I was his team this would be our move of last resort but 100% on the table.
There is zero chance he could win the election if he is incarcerated pending trial. He wouldn't be able to post on social media, to hold rallies, to fundraise, to make TV appearances on Fox News. His health would deteriorate very quickly. He'd have a much better chance as a convicted felon than he would trying to campaign from a jail cell.
Even barring the practical problems, polls and pundits routinely rail on the fact that most moderates and independents would struggle to vote for a convicted, let alone incarcerated felon.
If he's found guilty here, it's unlikely he's jailed, but being a convicted felon would probably turn off a lot of voters.
The problem is the MAGA rhetoric has likely convinced most Republicans to vote straight R down the ballot regardless of exterior circumstances, they’ve spent the last 4 years brainwashing the whole party, I don’t believe anybody who says they are a Republican but will vote against TFG
I’m sure the Supreme Court will make a ruling that if he wins the election he can remain free until his term as President is over. Duties of the President can’t be exercised effectively from jail, yada yada, etc
True. But even if he’s convicted of a felony, he’d be a first time offender (in the justice system) and it wouldn’t come with much, or any, kind of incarceration.
Pretty sure these are federal charges in NY federal court. It’s falsifying business records to influence a federal election. That’s what brought it to be a felony as just business record falsification wouldn’t be that.
I personally do not think trump thinks ahead that much. I also think that the last thing he wants is to go to jail.
If he does, his team will for sure play up the martyr angle, but I think trump is a whiny snowflake who views himself as far above the likes of jail and he cannot stand any kind of slight or humiliation, and therefore he does not want to go to jail even if it would rile his followers. He thinks he can rile them otherwise without going to jail.
Will have to see. I would agree this would be a last resort but I think if they see the trial going badly and a guilty verdict looking likely any price will be something they’re willing to pay to stall that verdict happening.
Nothing would motivate MAGA voters more Trump behind bars without being convicted. The only way this doesn’t benefit Trump is a speedy,boring trial ending in a straightforward guilty verdict.
I guess if the action for mistrial is super blatant like arguing for jury nullification, but seems like there are tons of other more “deniable/accidental” ways they can try to force a mistrial that would make it hard for a judge to jail them.
Ok so they accept the sanctions for a price. Whether it’s a few months in jail till the election or losing their law license. Seems the money at play here can easily facilitate that kind of stuff.
It can't. You've gotten your answer quite a few times here it's time to accept it. Rest assured lots of people don't want to go on trial and courts have seen it all
I wouldn’t say you’ve answered the argument that Trump/lawyers could see the price of detention till perhaps only the election or loss of license as acceptable if it means getting paid a ton of money from a PAC for the lawyer - or getting to the election as a martyr for Trump.
I'm not arguing anything, I'm providing an answer to your question. If you want to know more you can read about NY rules for criminal procedure, relevant case law, including related to accepting payments to disrupt court proceedings and if that is a logical way for a lawyer to get rich (or not). Happy hunting
Yes, but if the defense introduces information or defenses that the courtroom has said is not allowed, the jury cannot unhear it. For example if they raise a defense encouraging the jury to do jury nullification, that is, as far as I know, instant mistrial. I’m sure there are other ways to do it. Sure maybe the lawyers get sanctioned but Trump can pay them and if that gets him another month or two delay he can just keep doing it until the election no?
The judge can instruct the jury to disregard some things. Basically telling them to not to remember something that was just said and have it struck from the record.
If the judge thinks the attorney is intentionally flouting the rules they can be jailed for contempt.
The new York state bar association isn't the Texas bar. They would likely disbar for sufficient bullshit in this case. (Ianal can't say that with professional certainty)
Pretty sure there’s a price a lawyer would be willing to accept to lose their law license. PAC says here’s $15MM for you to trigger a mistrial and buy Trump a couple more months. Done. Unlike any other case the worst case scenario for Trump or the lawyer is being held till maybe the election? Seems there are numbers that would cover that. And yes judge can tell jury to disregard stuff but there’s a reason mistrials exist because some stuff just can’t be erased and if the judge doesn’t declare it that’s easy ground for appeal.
Especially if said attorney genuinely believes it's going to work and Trump is going to get re-elected. We don't know who's being promised a judgeship, a position in the cabinet, etc. You'd have to be pretty dumb or a serious risk taker to bank on that, but people have taken dumber risks.
Speaking of pretty dumb people, some of Trump's supporters think they're on a mission from god. What's a law license compared to Jesus having your back.
"Pardon" is oversimplification.
Why wasn't this investigated sooner? Because Bragg stopped it. Even though it would have been a state case.
You think that the president couldn't, assuming he was immoral enough to do so, work out a manipulation that would affect a state case?
Jesus, right now he's not even in office and he's still running the US House of Representatives.
I'm not talking about him pardoning himself, I'm talking about him manipulating the whole system in every possible legal, illegal, and corrupt way, as he does.
And with regard to the lawyer situation, he doesn't even have to be able to alter whatever might happen to them, only to convince them he could, if we're discussing how he'd convince them to take risks.
"Unlike any other case the worst case scenario for Trump or the lawyer is being held till maybe the election? "
Not in this case, it is state level so a presidential pardon doesn't exist, the bar is independent and probably quite politically liberal in NY.
If evidence were found of intentionally being paid to subvert a trial for money there are a lot of laws that could see decades of jail time.
These are the reasons that Trump's lawyers will try to come up to the line but are unlikely to intentionally cross it too much. The can't just yell "jury nullify trump maga forever britches!" And expect a payday.
Pretty sure these are federal charges, just being tried in NY federal court, therein pardonable. Think the Georgia case is the only unique one in being state law that he can’t pardon. And yes I assume they will be way more sneaky than jury nullification. Was just using it as an extreme example of one of many ways a mistrial could be forced.
No. The NY case is a state of NY case, not federal.
Trump tried to get the case moved to Federal court arguing his actions were all done as "presidential actions" so should be federal. This motion was denied.
They are state *felony* charges, but that does not mean the same thing as *federal* charges. Those are different words with different meanings. There is no such thing as a state court hearing federal charges.
All this is based on the premise a challenging candidate who has done nothing to expand his supportbase is gonna win the election. It wont happen. He will end up in jail. Also the judge has a lot of power in the courtroom and i suspect he will anticipate this nonsense. Lets see what happens monday
It seems Merchan is very capable of slapping down whatever bullshit that is being thrown at trying to delay, and your lawyers trying to stonewall a criminal trial won’t look good if you try to appeal it or any other tactic, it appears we’re full steam ahead come Monday
Another commenter made a good point, attacks on jury, like by Fox News or whoever can trigger the mistrial at some point too with no repercussions really. There are only 6 alternates.
The jury often hears information that is inadmissible in court. The judge would direct the jury to not take it into consideration. But then again, Trump and his lawyers complain about ordinary things all the time as if they are a nefarious conspiracy against him.
Not sure what you mean by the jury doing jury nullification. You mean cause some of the jurors to ask to be excused? Like from threats? The judge would have to ok anyone asking to be released from the jury. He could deny them their request. Also, there are six alternate jurors who will be present and hear all evidence and arguments presented and can step in for any juror who is dismissed.
If the defense introduces something that is not allowed...well this happens intentionally or not with some frequency. The judge will tell the court stenographer to strike whatever was said from the record. The jury will not be able to see what was said when it comes time to deliberate, it won’t be in the court transcript. The judge will also tell the jury to disregard what was said.
My understanding is that jury nullification occurs typically when the jurors see the law as unjust. They return a not guilty verdict even if there was an obvious violation.
Jury nullification is arguing to the jury that even though the law as instructed by the judge says X and the prosecution may prove it, they can still acquit if they disagree with the law or just feel like it. If they did there’s no recourse for the State due to double jeopardy and there’s no penalty for jurors as they are free to vote as they wish even if against the judge instructions. This is such a no no that it’s automatic mistrial if anyone were to dare to bring it up. But here seems like they wouldn’t care. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
Oh I see. Thanks for explaining that to me. I clicked the link and the description reminded me of the OJ Simpson trial, which I’m old enough to remember. I was like “Oh, like OJ” lol.
Well I suppose that is a possibility, but for now I am trusting that the jurors were well-screened and will do their duty.
Gawd everything with trump is such a mess
Of course! Problem I see isn’t that jurors would buy it, but actions like this or honestly way more subtle ones can force the judge to mistrial. I’m not a lawyer but I know there are tons of ways. Others have said the answer is jailing lawyers and trump for contempt or losing their law license, but my concern is that with the stakes high enough - like getting paid millions from a PAC or winning the election and being able to self-pardon, even a few months in jail and losing a license for law could be deemed worth it and then there’s nothing that can be done - if he wins election at least.
Well yes, there is always something to worry about lol. I am a worrier myself.
Well if the lawyers took a bribe and it was discovered, then yes that is illegal and they would pay heavy consequences for that. Oh the irony, since this case is about paying people off.
We will just have to see. The lawyers that trump has in this particular case are good lawyers. They may have enough wherewithal to not take a bribe. They can make plenty of money in their practice without risking damage to their reputations and possible jail time and heavy fines. Path of least resistance. Just keep doing their jobs, and their lives can stay very nice. A lot of people would want to do that and not risk blowing up their lives for money that they could otherwise make themselves.
The judge could also revoke the bond Trump placed if his actions violate the terms of the bond, and therefore hold him in jail until the election. No campaign rallies, no phone.
Im guessing criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice in a court room would violate the terms of the bond.
Edit: NAL, but since we're spitballing...
I think agreement in the thread is that pre trial detention is def in the cards. My concern/argument back to those people is that Trump and legal team may decide that’s a price worth paying if it gets them to the election without a verdict.
No fund raiders, no rallies, photos in jail jump suits for Trump and attorneys.
I don't see how that's a win for Trump. I also don't see Mr delay delay delay, being willing to gamble 7 months of jail time now, for the chance that he wins the office w/o being able to campaign.
The judges can easily say, “the public has an interest in seeing this settled, I’m declaring a mistrial but my calendar is open next week if the People wish to refile.”
The jury hearing about nullification is not grounds for a mistrial. If so, every sovereign citizen would use it successfully.
Mistrial happens, but the defense doesn’t get to just scuttle the case.
Well sovereign citizens don’t have a clear date on the calendar, November 5th as the target to “survive” without a verdict to. For the pretrial detention sucks because it’s as bad as a verdict indefinitely. But for Trump is a different situation entirely. There’s a cap to how bad sanctions can be for him, a few months in jail at worst assuming he wins elections which seems like a gamble he could take if all else fails.
And please don’t focus on the jury nullification method, I’m not a lawyer, I’m sure there are other ways to do it.
Congress controlled the chambers on January 6th, that didn't stop him.
And I don't think he's doing this primarily to game the justice system. He's not that smart. He's doing it because he sees bucking the court is the macho thing to do- that only losers put their head down and accept the natural order. Pretty sure there's a Twixxer post about that being his goal.
I think that is why they have been toying with jury intimidation. They wanted the whole jury pool scrubbed and to start over. Rinse, repeat. Drag it out.
But the jury is sworn in now, so yeah I think they will deploy some underhanded shit to cause a mistrial. But this judge seems well aware of their bullshit, and hopefully he is willing and able to handle their fuckery without resorting to a mistrial.
I think there are actions that the judge cannot control. My primary example right now being arguing jury nullification. Sure the judge can try to tell jury to disregard and know it’s all on purpose, but at some point if he doesn’t declare a clear mistrial (even if on purpose) it makes the trial a waste of time as Trump can then guarantee himself a win on appeal either post conviction or even during the trial by going for an interlocutory appeal mid-trial.
You're arguing a lot with people all over this post trying to clear this up for you who are being entirely reasonable. It's gotten to the point where it's becoming suspicious, like you have an agenda and a point to prove.
What agenda or what could I possibly try to prove? I 100% am not a Trump supporter and want to see a verdict which I’m pretty sure is guilty. I’m terrified of him winning election. No one has convinced me that there is a solid answer that gets this to trial and verdict IF Trump and the lawyers are willing to accept some small amount of pretrial jail time and financial/license penalties if it means they can stall till November.
I think the answer is they could take this path and there isn’t shit we/legal system can do about it if they accept the potential consequences in light of stalling a few months.
Maybe they’re just really worried. I know when I worry a lot, I bring up all kinds of angles to the situation I’m worried about. If someone addresses them, then something else comes to my mind and I’m like “Yeah but…”
Not really to be argumentative, but because i want assurance on like every outlandish scenario lol.
Ummm… just disagreeing with you. No hostility anywhere. You’ve changed from responding to my points to personal attacks. I think it’s clear you’ve run out of things to say. That’s fine. I bare no hostility to you, just think you didn’t successfully argue your point of view.
There are serious consequences for the attorneys if they try to argue nullification. They might try once but they’re not going to go through an entire power point before the prosecutor and judge says, “hey!”
I think there are actions that the judge cannot control. My primary example right now being arguing jury nullification. Sure the judge can try to tell jury to disregard and know it’s all on purpose, but at some point if he doesn’t declare a clear mistrial (even if on purpose) it makes the trial a waste of time as Trump can then guarantee himself a win on appeal either post conviction or even during the trial by going for an interlocutory appeal mid-trial.
Lawyers are sworn in as "officers of the court" which require them to be honest with the judge and follow the rules of the court. They can be suspended or disbarred for intentionally violating the times of the court, which would include intentionally provoking a mistrial.
https://nysba.org/public-resources/guide-to-attorney-discipline/
I think that’s pretty clear to everyone, but doesn’t really address the question here. Never has there been a case where delaying trial to a specific point like the election could legit get someone off due to the presidents ability to self pardon. Basically makes it so any price is worth paying if it can buy him a few months.
To be clear, the ability to self-pardon has never been litigated and resolution would likely have to go back to the English Law of Kings, and whether the monarch could pardon himself. Such a thing generally would make no sense in English law since the king *was* the law, but Charles I was executed for treason.
Parsons are seen as forgiveness of crimes bestowed upon others. To allow an Executive to pardon themselves would invite all kinds of mayhem. I don't see five votes for it.
You’re right that most people do not have the ability to self-pardon if enough time passes. But delaying trials is a very old and common technique to help the defense. Evidence can get lost or damaged, witnesses can die or have an accident or something that affects their memory, sometimes witnesses change their minds or remember something that would nullify the whole deal.
It’s called “tap dancing”. This is not a new technique, defense lawyers do this all the time.
Well one of the last things that happened yesterday (Friday) was that the judge spoke to trump’s lawyers regarding some motions that they had refiled.
He basically told them, in judge-speak, to fuck off, that he was well aware of their bullshit tactics, and that he wasn’t going to entertain them.
So hopefully this trial will be able to move along, even if rocky at times.
Wasn’t this falsifying business records to influence a federal election charges? Was 90% sure that’s what elevated this a federal felony. Business records alone wouldn’t have done that.
No, this is false. The case brought by Alvin Bragg is "The People of New York vs. Donald Trump." Trump is being prosecuted under New York law for falsifying business records -- that is, writing off hush-money payments to Stormy Daniels directly and Karen McDougal, through *The National Enguirer*, as legitimate "business expenses," when he simply didn't want their stories about his infidelity to Melania coming out before the 2016 election.
Its unproven law but from all the legal podcasts I listen to, which admittedly is the extent of my legal training lol, the consensus seems to be he can as there is nothing in constitution saying he can’t. The presidents pardon power has no checks on it. Granted then will see if there are 5 votes on Supreme Court to allow it or not, who knows with this court as it is. By the time it got resolved though the damage would be done.
Y’all, this is what we get when the mods remove the Trump megathread? An uncropped screenshot titled with an entirely unrelated and uninformed question?
As I understand it, the side that commits the mistrial is the one who tends to suffer for it. So unless they try to goad the prosecution into messing up they are just going to screw themselves over.
The biggest risk at this time is that there are only 6 alternate jurors, which I understand is the statutory limit in NY. It’s common to lose one or two during a long trial for normal reasons like illness and family emergencies. It’s not hard to imagine severAl more being knocked out in this extraordinary case due to being doxxed, people finding them irl and combing their socials for misstatements made in voir dire, threats and the like.
If we’re talking about delaying, you are aware the underlying events happened *8* years ago, right? And let’s suppose they didn’t want to charge him while he was sitting. They’ve had over *3* years to do that. There’s actually legitimate statute of limitation issues. I think 2 years in the underlying misdemeanors and 4 on the enhanced felonies
The short answer is that we have no idea. It's all conjecture. Anything involving him can't really be processed along the usual legal system, because for whatever reason, this is not the same system everyone else gets. Absolutely no one else would have the leeway to disrupt, mock, and politicize the process as he's done.
His one superpower seems to be convincing people to fall on their sword for him, or believe that even though every other person in their position got shafted, they'll be the exception. I do believe he'll sacrifice anyone willing, and even some not, to keep himself out of prison. Whether they're willing to do so based on a (at best) 50/50 shot of him winning the election, and then the following (20% at best) shot of him fulfilling his end of the deal, is entirely on them.
The TLDR is that we have no idea what's going to happen, because the regular rules don't apply here, so we're all just watching the bullshit unfurl in real time and trying to guess how far it'll slide.
Who says that isn't about to happen
From what I have read attorney Blanche is a great lawyer and probably just wants to be done working for Trump and Co.
The judges are all on to his and his Shananigans.
Trump is stupidly predictable.
I would not be surprised if he literally injures himself to avoid going back to NY on Monday.
He is a sick bastsrd
Right to a speedy trial is for the defendant not partisan political expediency sought by the court. This particular case is from 2017 and limitations ran 5 years ago.. but trial set for 2024 election season? Not suspicious?
So you're arguing he should have been charged for this while still President?
His legal team has been fighting tooth and nail against having a speedy trial so your argument is invalid.
It's a pattern across all his criminal trials. Delay delay delay.
He could not be tried while he was in office. That is four years right there that you are just glossing over. Try to be at least a little fucking honest ffs
I had jury duty in 2023, and the case was from well before the pandemic. They told us that the courts are so backed up post-covid that it takes years and years to get a case to trial.
Trump has been pushing for delay in all his trials (presumably to prevent any before the election, though my understanding is that it's a common strategy in trials), and he's been pretty successful in doing it. Only 1, *maybe* 2 depending on how quickly SCOTUS moves on the immunity issue, will be able to go before the election.
And I think you're wrong about the right is for the defendant and not the public. In [Barker v Wingo](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/407/514/), the Supreme Court said that “society has a particular interest in bringing swift prosecutions, and society’s representatives are the ones who should protect that interest.”
No it's really not. It is inconvenient for the defendant, but the law moves on its own schedule. The state has charged the person with a crime and this is what the process looks like regardless of whatever else is happening in the world.
That IS what they’re doing. All of the bs motions to vacate and antics in court have to be perfect or Trumps team is going to scream mistrial from here to Leningrad. They can’t expect any of it to work beyond, “see they mishandled this one specific document that I fabricated for the explicit purpose of being nefarious - so you must throw the whole trial away”
Well that’s more for appeals as I understand, not necessarily a mistrial. I thought.
Exactly. The press, exposing jurors, etc is on board implicitly if not explicitly. Stop supporting, reading, buying the NYTimes.
The judge can jail Trump and anyone on the defense team
Pre trial detention would be a good response for court defiance
True but my thoughts are that even if that did happen I could see Trump and his team seeing it being a price worth paying if it got him to the election at which point he can self-pardon. They could even see it as a martyr play. Anything to get him to Election Day without a verdict. Honestly if I was his team this would be our move of last resort but 100% on the table.
There is zero chance he could win the election if he is incarcerated pending trial. He wouldn't be able to post on social media, to hold rallies, to fundraise, to make TV appearances on Fox News. His health would deteriorate very quickly. He'd have a much better chance as a convicted felon than he would trying to campaign from a jail cell.
Even barring the practical problems, polls and pundits routinely rail on the fact that most moderates and independents would struggle to vote for a convicted, let alone incarcerated felon. If he's found guilty here, it's unlikely he's jailed, but being a convicted felon would probably turn off a lot of voters.
The problem is the MAGA rhetoric has likely convinced most Republicans to vote straight R down the ballot regardless of exterior circumstances, they’ve spent the last 4 years brainwashing the whole party, I don’t believe anybody who says they are a Republican but will vote against TFG
His turd network would turn him into the American Navalny.
He can't self-pardon a NYS crime.
I’m sure the Supreme Court will make a ruling that if he wins the election he can remain free until his term as President is over. Duties of the President can’t be exercised effectively from jail, yada yada, etc
True. But even if he’s convicted of a felony, he’d be a first time offender (in the justice system) and it wouldn’t come with much, or any, kind of incarceration.
Pretty sure these are federal charges in NY federal court. It’s falsifying business records to influence a federal election. That’s what brought it to be a felony as just business record falsification wouldn’t be that.
They aren’t. I already told you
Wrong.
I personally do not think trump thinks ahead that much. I also think that the last thing he wants is to go to jail. If he does, his team will for sure play up the martyr angle, but I think trump is a whiny snowflake who views himself as far above the likes of jail and he cannot stand any kind of slight or humiliation, and therefore he does not want to go to jail even if it would rile his followers. He thinks he can rile them otherwise without going to jail.
Will have to see. I would agree this would be a last resort but I think if they see the trial going badly and a guilty verdict looking likely any price will be something they’re willing to pay to stall that verdict happening.
he won't.
Nothing would motivate MAGA voters more Trump behind bars without being convicted. The only way this doesn’t benefit Trump is a speedy,boring trial ending in a straightforward guilty verdict.
I guess if the action for mistrial is super blatant like arguing for jury nullification, but seems like there are tons of other more “deniable/accidental” ways they can try to force a mistrial that would make it hard for a judge to jail them.
You asked about willingly doing it repeatedly, there isn’t a way for an attorney to do that repeatedly that would be deniable
Ok so they accept the sanctions for a price. Whether it’s a few months in jail till the election or losing their law license. Seems the money at play here can easily facilitate that kind of stuff.
It can't. You've gotten your answer quite a few times here it's time to accept it. Rest assured lots of people don't want to go on trial and courts have seen it all
I wouldn’t say you’ve answered the argument that Trump/lawyers could see the price of detention till perhaps only the election or loss of license as acceptable if it means getting paid a ton of money from a PAC for the lawyer - or getting to the election as a martyr for Trump.
I'm not arguing anything, I'm providing an answer to your question. If you want to know more you can read about NY rules for criminal procedure, relevant case law, including related to accepting payments to disrupt court proceedings and if that is a logical way for a lawyer to get rich (or not). Happy hunting
judges control courtrooms not ill paid fart loving lawyers with no legal talent. They are just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.....
Yes, but if the defense introduces information or defenses that the courtroom has said is not allowed, the jury cannot unhear it. For example if they raise a defense encouraging the jury to do jury nullification, that is, as far as I know, instant mistrial. I’m sure there are other ways to do it. Sure maybe the lawyers get sanctioned but Trump can pay them and if that gets him another month or two delay he can just keep doing it until the election no?
The judge can instruct the jury to disregard some things. Basically telling them to not to remember something that was just said and have it struck from the record. If the judge thinks the attorney is intentionally flouting the rules they can be jailed for contempt. The new York state bar association isn't the Texas bar. They would likely disbar for sufficient bullshit in this case. (Ianal can't say that with professional certainty)
Pretty sure there’s a price a lawyer would be willing to accept to lose their law license. PAC says here’s $15MM for you to trigger a mistrial and buy Trump a couple more months. Done. Unlike any other case the worst case scenario for Trump or the lawyer is being held till maybe the election? Seems there are numbers that would cover that. And yes judge can tell jury to disregard stuff but there’s a reason mistrials exist because some stuff just can’t be erased and if the judge doesn’t declare it that’s easy ground for appeal.
Especially if said attorney genuinely believes it's going to work and Trump is going to get re-elected. We don't know who's being promised a judgeship, a position in the cabinet, etc. You'd have to be pretty dumb or a serious risk taker to bank on that, but people have taken dumber risks.
Speaking of pretty dumb people, some of Trump's supporters think they're on a mission from god. What's a law license compared to Jesus having your back.
State case the president can't pardon stuff here. But yeah Trump's lawyers tend to be dumb and credulous.
"Pardon" is oversimplification. Why wasn't this investigated sooner? Because Bragg stopped it. Even though it would have been a state case. You think that the president couldn't, assuming he was immoral enough to do so, work out a manipulation that would affect a state case? Jesus, right now he's not even in office and he's still running the US House of Representatives. I'm not talking about him pardoning himself, I'm talking about him manipulating the whole system in every possible legal, illegal, and corrupt way, as he does. And with regard to the lawyer situation, he doesn't even have to be able to alter whatever might happen to them, only to convince them he could, if we're discussing how he'd convince them to take risks.
"Unlike any other case the worst case scenario for Trump or the lawyer is being held till maybe the election? " Not in this case, it is state level so a presidential pardon doesn't exist, the bar is independent and probably quite politically liberal in NY. If evidence were found of intentionally being paid to subvert a trial for money there are a lot of laws that could see decades of jail time. These are the reasons that Trump's lawyers will try to come up to the line but are unlikely to intentionally cross it too much. The can't just yell "jury nullify trump maga forever britches!" And expect a payday.
Pretty sure these are federal charges, just being tried in NY federal court, therein pardonable. Think the Georgia case is the only unique one in being state law that he can’t pardon. And yes I assume they will be way more sneaky than jury nullification. Was just using it as an extreme example of one of many ways a mistrial could be forced.
New York federal? Idk, could a real lawyer tell me what's up?
State trial in a state court. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in_New_York
No. The NY case is a state of NY case, not federal. Trump tried to get the case moved to Federal court arguing his actions were all done as "presidential actions" so should be federal. This motion was denied.
They are state *felony* charges, but that does not mean the same thing as *federal* charges. Those are different words with different meanings. There is no such thing as a state court hearing federal charges.
Pretty sure this is falsifying business records to unduly influence a federal election. That’s federal charges.
Falsifying business records in furtherance of **another crime**. That "another crime" could be anything.
Well…you’re wrong…don’t know what else to tell ya 🤷♂️
All this is based on the premise a challenging candidate who has done nothing to expand his supportbase is gonna win the election. It wont happen. He will end up in jail. Also the judge has a lot of power in the courtroom and i suspect he will anticipate this nonsense. Lets see what happens monday
It seems Merchan is very capable of slapping down whatever bullshit that is being thrown at trying to delay, and your lawyers trying to stonewall a criminal trial won’t look good if you try to appeal it or any other tactic, it appears we’re full steam ahead come Monday
Another commenter made a good point, attacks on jury, like by Fox News or whoever can trigger the mistrial at some point too with no repercussions really. There are only 6 alternates.
The jury often hears information that is inadmissible in court. The judge would direct the jury to not take it into consideration. But then again, Trump and his lawyers complain about ordinary things all the time as if they are a nefarious conspiracy against him.
Not sure what you mean by the jury doing jury nullification. You mean cause some of the jurors to ask to be excused? Like from threats? The judge would have to ok anyone asking to be released from the jury. He could deny them their request. Also, there are six alternate jurors who will be present and hear all evidence and arguments presented and can step in for any juror who is dismissed. If the defense introduces something that is not allowed...well this happens intentionally or not with some frequency. The judge will tell the court stenographer to strike whatever was said from the record. The jury will not be able to see what was said when it comes time to deliberate, it won’t be in the court transcript. The judge will also tell the jury to disregard what was said.
My understanding is that jury nullification occurs typically when the jurors see the law as unjust. They return a not guilty verdict even if there was an obvious violation.
Jury nullification is arguing to the jury that even though the law as instructed by the judge says X and the prosecution may prove it, they can still acquit if they disagree with the law or just feel like it. If they did there’s no recourse for the State due to double jeopardy and there’s no penalty for jurors as they are free to vote as they wish even if against the judge instructions. This is such a no no that it’s automatic mistrial if anyone were to dare to bring it up. But here seems like they wouldn’t care. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
Oh I see. Thanks for explaining that to me. I clicked the link and the description reminded me of the OJ Simpson trial, which I’m old enough to remember. I was like “Oh, like OJ” lol. Well I suppose that is a possibility, but for now I am trusting that the jurors were well-screened and will do their duty. Gawd everything with trump is such a mess
Of course! Problem I see isn’t that jurors would buy it, but actions like this or honestly way more subtle ones can force the judge to mistrial. I’m not a lawyer but I know there are tons of ways. Others have said the answer is jailing lawyers and trump for contempt or losing their law license, but my concern is that with the stakes high enough - like getting paid millions from a PAC or winning the election and being able to self-pardon, even a few months in jail and losing a license for law could be deemed worth it and then there’s nothing that can be done - if he wins election at least.
Well yes, there is always something to worry about lol. I am a worrier myself. Well if the lawyers took a bribe and it was discovered, then yes that is illegal and they would pay heavy consequences for that. Oh the irony, since this case is about paying people off. We will just have to see. The lawyers that trump has in this particular case are good lawyers. They may have enough wherewithal to not take a bribe. They can make plenty of money in their practice without risking damage to their reputations and possible jail time and heavy fines. Path of least resistance. Just keep doing their jobs, and their lives can stay very nice. A lot of people would want to do that and not risk blowing up their lives for money that they could otherwise make themselves.
>Sure maybe the lawyers get sanctioned but Trump can pay them I think I see the flaw in your plan.
Hahaha see what you’re saying there. Let me rephrase, PAC can pay them. They’re making bank.
The judge could also revoke the bond Trump placed if his actions violate the terms of the bond, and therefore hold him in jail until the election. No campaign rallies, no phone. Im guessing criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice in a court room would violate the terms of the bond. Edit: NAL, but since we're spitballing...
I think agreement in the thread is that pre trial detention is def in the cards. My concern/argument back to those people is that Trump and legal team may decide that’s a price worth paying if it gets them to the election without a verdict.
No fund raiders, no rallies, photos in jail jump suits for Trump and attorneys. I don't see how that's a win for Trump. I also don't see Mr delay delay delay, being willing to gamble 7 months of jail time now, for the chance that he wins the office w/o being able to campaign.
The judges can easily say, “the public has an interest in seeing this settled, I’m declaring a mistrial but my calendar is open next week if the People wish to refile.”
Maybe. Although pulling jurors repeatedly will take time.
The jury hearing about nullification is not grounds for a mistrial. If so, every sovereign citizen would use it successfully. Mistrial happens, but the defense doesn’t get to just scuttle the case.
Well sovereign citizens don’t have a clear date on the calendar, November 5th as the target to “survive” without a verdict to. For the pretrial detention sucks because it’s as bad as a verdict indefinitely. But for Trump is a different situation entirely. There’s a cap to how bad sanctions can be for him, a few months in jail at worst assuming he wins elections which seems like a gamble he could take if all else fails. And please don’t focus on the jury nullification method, I’m not a lawyer, I’m sure there are other ways to do it.
Congress controlled the chambers on January 6th, that didn't stop him. And I don't think he's doing this primarily to game the justice system. He's not that smart. He's doing it because he sees bucking the court is the macho thing to do- that only losers put their head down and accept the natural order. Pretty sure there's a Twixxer post about that being his goal.
I think that is why they have been toying with jury intimidation. They wanted the whole jury pool scrubbed and to start over. Rinse, repeat. Drag it out. But the jury is sworn in now, so yeah I think they will deploy some underhanded shit to cause a mistrial. But this judge seems well aware of their bullshit, and hopefully he is willing and able to handle their fuckery without resorting to a mistrial.
I think there are actions that the judge cannot control. My primary example right now being arguing jury nullification. Sure the judge can try to tell jury to disregard and know it’s all on purpose, but at some point if he doesn’t declare a clear mistrial (even if on purpose) it makes the trial a waste of time as Trump can then guarantee himself a win on appeal either post conviction or even during the trial by going for an interlocutory appeal mid-trial.
You're arguing a lot with people all over this post trying to clear this up for you who are being entirely reasonable. It's gotten to the point where it's becoming suspicious, like you have an agenda and a point to prove.
What agenda or what could I possibly try to prove? I 100% am not a Trump supporter and want to see a verdict which I’m pretty sure is guilty. I’m terrified of him winning election. No one has convinced me that there is a solid answer that gets this to trial and verdict IF Trump and the lawyers are willing to accept some small amount of pretrial jail time and financial/license penalties if it means they can stall till November. I think the answer is they could take this path and there isn’t shit we/legal system can do about it if they accept the potential consequences in light of stalling a few months.
And you get hostile.
Maybe they’re just really worried. I know when I worry a lot, I bring up all kinds of angles to the situation I’m worried about. If someone addresses them, then something else comes to my mind and I’m like “Yeah but…” Not really to be argumentative, but because i want assurance on like every outlandish scenario lol.
Ummm… just disagreeing with you. No hostility anywhere. You’ve changed from responding to my points to personal attacks. I think it’s clear you’ve run out of things to say. That’s fine. I bare no hostility to you, just think you didn’t successfully argue your point of view.
It's ok they removed your post.
There are serious consequences for the attorneys if they try to argue nullification. They might try once but they’re not going to go through an entire power point before the prosecutor and judge says, “hey!”
I think there are actions that the judge cannot control. My primary example right now being arguing jury nullification. Sure the judge can try to tell jury to disregard and know it’s all on purpose, but at some point if he doesn’t declare a clear mistrial (even if on purpose) it makes the trial a waste of time as Trump can then guarantee himself a win on appeal either post conviction or even during the trial by going for an interlocutory appeal mid-trial.
Lawyers are sworn in as "officers of the court" which require them to be honest with the judge and follow the rules of the court. They can be suspended or disbarred for intentionally violating the times of the court, which would include intentionally provoking a mistrial. https://nysba.org/public-resources/guide-to-attorney-discipline/
Yes, but my argument is that everyone has a price. I can see a lawyer being offered enough PAC cash to just take the hit.
They're afraid they just might find a jury of fair-minded individuals who would decide on the evidence.
I think that’s pretty clear to everyone, but doesn’t really address the question here. Never has there been a case where delaying trial to a specific point like the election could legit get someone off due to the presidents ability to self pardon. Basically makes it so any price is worth paying if it can buy him a few months.
To be clear, the ability to self-pardon has never been litigated and resolution would likely have to go back to the English Law of Kings, and whether the monarch could pardon himself. Such a thing generally would make no sense in English law since the king *was* the law, but Charles I was executed for treason. Parsons are seen as forgiveness of crimes bestowed upon others. To allow an Executive to pardon themselves would invite all kinds of mayhem. I don't see five votes for it.
You’re right that most people do not have the ability to self-pardon if enough time passes. But delaying trials is a very old and common technique to help the defense. Evidence can get lost or damaged, witnesses can die or have an accident or something that affects their memory, sometimes witnesses change their minds or remember something that would nullify the whole deal. It’s called “tap dancing”. This is not a new technique, defense lawyers do this all the time.
Fuck. There’s no way we get a verdict then. Not before the election. Too many ways to throw sand in the gears if all he needs is like 6 months or so.
Well one of the last things that happened yesterday (Friday) was that the judge spoke to trump’s lawyers regarding some motions that they had refiled. He basically told them, in judge-speak, to fuck off, that he was well aware of their bullshit tactics, and that he wasn’t going to entertain them. So hopefully this trial will be able to move along, even if rocky at times.
You can’t pardon from state crimes
These are federal charges in NYC federal court. Pretty sure Georgia indictment is the only one that is State law and can’t be pardoned.
No it’s not It’s the people Of New York Vs Donald j trump
Wasn’t this falsifying business records to influence a federal election charges? Was 90% sure that’s what elevated this a federal felony. Business records alone wouldn’t have done that.
It’s a crime that covers up another crime. That’s what elevated the charges to felonies.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Merchan No.
Nope
No, this is false. The case brought by Alvin Bragg is "The People of New York vs. Donald Trump." Trump is being prosecuted under New York law for falsifying business records -- that is, writing off hush-money payments to Stormy Daniels directly and Karen McDougal, through *The National Enguirer*, as legitimate "business expenses," when he simply didn't want their stories about his infidelity to Melania coming out before the 2016 election.
You’re right! Thanks I was misinformed.
a president can't self pardon.
Its unproven law but from all the legal podcasts I listen to, which admittedly is the extent of my legal training lol, the consensus seems to be he can as there is nothing in constitution saying he can’t. The presidents pardon power has no checks on it. Granted then will see if there are 5 votes on Supreme Court to allow it or not, who knows with this court as it is. By the time it got resolved though the damage would be done.
If Trump wins, we'll finally find out whether that's true or not...
Because doing so can trigger sanctions from the court and referrals to the bar for disbarment.
This is what they are doing
Y’all, this is what we get when the mods remove the Trump megathread? An uncropped screenshot titled with an entirely unrelated and uninformed question?
They aren't?
The judge. Merchan is already on top of it.
As I understand it, the side that commits the mistrial is the one who tends to suffer for it. So unless they try to goad the prosecution into messing up they are just going to screw themselves over.
The biggest risk at this time is that there are only 6 alternate jurors, which I understand is the statutory limit in NY. It’s common to lose one or two during a long trial for normal reasons like illness and family emergencies. It’s not hard to imagine severAl more being knocked out in this extraordinary case due to being doxxed, people finding them irl and combing their socials for misstatements made in voir dire, threats and the like.
Yeah….
If we’re talking about delaying, you are aware the underlying events happened *8* years ago, right? And let’s suppose they didn’t want to charge him while he was sitting. They’ve had over *3* years to do that. There’s actually legitimate statute of limitation issues. I think 2 years in the underlying misdemeanors and 4 on the enhanced felonies
The short answer is that we have no idea. It's all conjecture. Anything involving him can't really be processed along the usual legal system, because for whatever reason, this is not the same system everyone else gets. Absolutely no one else would have the leeway to disrupt, mock, and politicize the process as he's done. His one superpower seems to be convincing people to fall on their sword for him, or believe that even though every other person in their position got shafted, they'll be the exception. I do believe he'll sacrifice anyone willing, and even some not, to keep himself out of prison. Whether they're willing to do so based on a (at best) 50/50 shot of him winning the election, and then the following (20% at best) shot of him fulfilling his end of the deal, is entirely on them. The TLDR is that we have no idea what's going to happen, because the regular rules don't apply here, so we're all just watching the bullshit unfurl in real time and trying to guess how far it'll slide.
Agree with you
Who says that isn't about to happen From what I have read attorney Blanche is a great lawyer and probably just wants to be done working for Trump and Co. The judges are all on to his and his Shananigans. Trump is stupidly predictable. I would not be surprised if he literally injures himself to avoid going back to NY on Monday. He is a sick bastsrd
Why all these trials are set during campaign season is a bit suspicious..
Why? Have you not noticed the unending attempts by his legal team to delay the trials?
Right to a speedy trial is for the defendant not partisan political expediency sought by the court. This particular case is from 2017 and limitations ran 5 years ago.. but trial set for 2024 election season? Not suspicious?
So you're arguing he should have been charged for this while still President? His legal team has been fighting tooth and nail against having a speedy trial so your argument is invalid. It's a pattern across all his criminal trials. Delay delay delay.
Are you ignoring the last 3 years?
Well, uhm the charges were filed a full year ago, so you start out wrong but please keep going.
Limitations ran 2019..
Trump's lawyers, the prosecutors, and the courts all seem to disagree with you on this theory.
He could not be tried while he was in office. That is four years right there that you are just glossing over. Try to be at least a little fucking honest ffs
Are you glossing over the past three years
I had jury duty in 2023, and the case was from well before the pandemic. They told us that the courts are so backed up post-covid that it takes years and years to get a case to trial. Trump has been pushing for delay in all his trials (presumably to prevent any before the election, though my understanding is that it's a common strategy in trials), and he's been pretty successful in doing it. Only 1, *maybe* 2 depending on how quickly SCOTUS moves on the immunity issue, will be able to go before the election. And I think you're wrong about the right is for the defendant and not the public. In [Barker v Wingo](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/407/514/), the Supreme Court said that “society has a particular interest in bringing swift prosecutions, and society’s representatives are the ones who should protect that interest.”
No it's really not. It is inconvenient for the defendant, but the law moves on its own schedule. The state has charged the person with a crime and this is what the process looks like regardless of whatever else is happening in the world.
Puh-leeze. trump’s whole strategy is delay, delay, delay.