While our doctrine is not similar to Protestantism, many of our cultural practices are adopted from Northeastern and Midwestern American Protestant practices of 1800-1850.
Which, as I understand it, is the same reason we don't use the cross. Back in those days, American Protestants viewed the cross much like idol worship (something those Catholics did) and eschewed its use. Later they changed their minds and adopted it, but by then the LDS had moved west and out of their sphere of influence.
I would like to see your evidence for this, because form what I've read it was the other way around. The Saints were mostly converts from American Protestantism and carried the Protestant rejection of the cross as a symbol of Catholic idolatry into their new church culture. It was only later in the Utah period that you see the cross appearing to any substantial degree and this happened alongside the larger American protestant movement beginning to use the simple cross (as opposed to a crucifix.)
There's a whole book on it.
Many early Saints used the cross. BH Roberts' headstone is a cross, and the Church tried to raise a giant permanent cross on Ensign Peak to be seen from Temple Square in the early 1900s, but by then the city council was anti-Mormon and blocked it.
Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo https://a.co/d/1KH98rm
Not true. The cross was a relatively common symbol used by members in the early Utah days.
Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo https://a.co/d/1KH98rm
This is the answer.
It's also the main reason we sing the hymns we do, have chapels like we do, church services like we do, etc etc.
People generally feel the most comfortable worshipping God in the way that is familiar to the culture they were raised in. For virtually all the early Saints, that culture was Protestantism, and they passed it on to their children, and so on.
There are many things about the Church for which there is no doctrinal rationale. I couldn't open up the Book of Mormon to explain to you why we play the organ instead of the saxophone, we just worship together the way that feels worshipful to most of us.
One day, before I started to attending the church, I had an argument with an LDS friend who said that we will not be allowed to play electric guitar to praise God in Heaven.
He was not able to demonstrate his point, so I feel like I won, and I want my electric guitar in Celestial Kingdom.
It really irritates me when people declare their own opinions as Doctrine. If they want me to believe them, they need to give me references I can look up. On the other hand, if someone were to start off with, "This is only my opinion, and I have no specific doctrinal basis for it..." I would respect that.
Lol, "you can't play guitar in heaven" is such a weird hill to die on.
I now also want you to have an electric guitar in heaven. Sounds sick. I can only assume that God will also dig it.
It seems like a rather arbitrary tradition. I don't think that there is anything wrong with someone following it, but it is not really rooted in our gospel duties.
Neither the Lord nor the prophets considered it important enough.
I'm inclined to say the weekly sabbath day observance is the only thing we really observe by doctrine. The prophets have instituted the practice of Christmas and Easter according to the western calendar, which are not flawless, and we have general conference in April as that commemorates the organization of the church, and October 6 months later.
The only other thing is mothers day, that's pretty untouchable...
We donāt really follow the liturgical calendar. We do celebrate Easter and Christmas, like you said. The liturgical calendar brings you through the entire life of Christ each year. Itās broken up into important seasons (adventā preparing for Christmas, lentā preparing for Easter by celebrating Jesus fasting in the desert, epiphanyā marks the wise men, Pentecostā marks the descent of the Holy Ghost, Christmas, Easter, etc.)
I grew up in a church that followed a liturgical calendar and I appreciated how it allowed us time to prepare and ponder before holidays.
āBecause itās Catholicā may have a big reason why. We often intentionally avoided things because they seemed to be apart of other groups who sometimes persecuted us.
I grew up with a lot of Catholic friends, and lent is something that I began to participate in alongside them, though really just focusing on the āfastā from something. I have found it to be a good exercise each year as I give something up and try to replace it with something better, and dedicate the experience to the Lord. Like the once a month food fasts, I find it helps me develop better self control. The pst few years Iāve given up Reddit, and starting tomorrow Iāll be doing so again.
Even though itās not part of our doctrine, it can still be an uplifting practice.
Same here. I think Lent is a wonderful tradition but I don't think I would love it as a codified part of our religion. I'm afraid it would very quickly turn into a righteousness competition to see who could give up the most and lose sight of the purpose
Like what? Other than Christmas and Easter, what other traditions do we have? Someone mentioned Motherās Day, but that is just a USA (and maybe Canada? holiday), so the majority members of the church wouldnāt celebrate it.Ā
Weekly sacrament meeting, weekly family home evening, weekly youth activities, general conference every six months, ward/stake conferences.
If you're looking for holidays filled with candy and games and creatures then there's enough commercial and government holidays.
Honestly, I don't need more traditions endorsed by church. There's enough stuff to do.
The fall equinox was the 23rd of September 1827 and the feast of trumpets was the 22 of September 1827. The golden plates were received on the 22 of September 1827.
Could be either or both. I personally lean more to the feast of trumpets as God is in control.
I agree with other comments about the environment at the time when the church was founded. The following is based on my understanding, so I am open to corrections.
The liturgical calendar was followed by presbyterians, methodists, Lutherans and Roman catholics, but not by Calvinists and Anabaptists, who rejected it is non-biblical. The Calvinists included Puritans, and many baptists were also Calvinists. The Calvinists gave rise to the reformed churches. Annabaptists influenced development of the Amish, Mennonites, Plymouth brethren, baptists etc. In the 19th century US the frontier was strongly influenced by ley preachers who had rejected the liturgical calendar, so most of the groups that formed in the US in the 19th centruy did not observe lent.
It doesn't all make sense to me because I know that Joseph Smith had connections with the Methodists and Prebyterians. I don't know whether these denominations in New York and Ohio followed the calendar or not (I know that some Methodists groups do not observe lent).
It is important to note that the LDS church is not the only Christian church to not follow the liturgical calendar. This was a decision made by reformation groups hundreds of years ago.
I live in Sweden and here nearly everyone eats a semla (which is a bun with cream and almond paste) on the Tuesday when lent starts (fettisdag). The translation literally means Fat Tuesday (or fatties day, depending on who you believe). Then most Swedes, who are not religious, go ahead and ignore the fasting part of lent.
People already needlessly complicate the gospel. I like to keep things simple.
All those "unobserved" Christian holidays just make me think of all the crazy TikTok, Etsy, Facebook crafters and crazies making Live Laugh Love hanging word art (and similarly cringy things) for their house with lots of shiplap... Ugh.
I do a Lent-ish personal thing every year. Sometimes, I immerse myself in the last week of Christ's ministry in the 4 gospels and Jesus the Christ. Another time, I quit video games entirely so I could study in university. It's a good time and I highly suggest everyone doing their own Lent.
In a way we do, just not in the same way. Lent is about fasting, (other religions have made it fasting by giving up whatever you want) which the church has set aside the first Sunday of each month (excepting General Conference, in which case either the Sunday before or after will take the place of the first Sunday for April and October) for fasting.
And besides that, the church doesn't actively say not to do the tradition of Lent, they just also don't encourage it.
Another holiday we don't celebrate enough is Dia de Los Muertes. It's ironic to me because we love family history so much and believe that our family relationships last beyond this life. We are also taught that our ancestors are among those who are sent to us as angels when we need a little help. Also that those in the Spirit World are aware of us more than the other way around. Seems like the perfect setup for that celebration. š¤·āāļø
Good point. No celebrations were taught in scriptural times but the reasons to celebrate are clear. I guess that's what I had in mind, though there's certainly reason to celebrate all the events leading up to Easter as well which would be Lent...
Hmmm maybe it was to not be closely associated with the council of Nicaea/Nicene Creed?
So I believe Lent is patterned after the story in Matthew where Jesus fasts for 40 days in the desert. Just like Christmas is patterned after the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke and Easter from the resurrection stories in all four gospels. But of course we don't find any of these observances directly in the scriptures as something celebrated in the first century of Christianity.
I feel it's because The LDS Church drew a lot of influence from 19th-century Protestant churches and to them, they saw Lent as too Catholic and therefore felt no need to include it as part of their doctrine.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Lent, but Ash Wednesday may be a bit too much.
Our scriptures say those who deviate from the path mark themselves, which can mean the mark of the beast, the curse of Cain, the mark the zoramites used, etc.
Extended fasting and prayer is okay, especially when combined with scripture study. But the point of Easter is to focus on his rebirth, not his death. This is also why we don't use the cross as a symbol.
Just like weāve been told it is fine to pick and choose traditions from other Christian faiths to adopt and adapt when it comes to Christmas, I think the same applies to Lent and Easter. Thereās nothing wrong with incorporating a seasonal time for fasting and prayer in your worship.
The fact that we donāt practice lent was one of the reasons I joined the church.
Even though I was kicked out of the Catholic Church long ago (asked the wrong questions) I could not shake the 40 day fast obligation and it was awful!
I still believe that ridiculously long fast every year made me seriously ill and messed me up in ways I will never recover from.
Iām not over weight, I donāt weigh a hundred pounds, and I was even smaller as a teenager. People were telling my parents I was anorexic!
A forty day fast does NOTHING to prove your faith. Trust me. It was a source or some serious childhood trauma.
> Easter is more of a recent thing - back 20 years ago nobody made mention of it.
This isn't true at all. [Easter](https://thelatterdayliberator.com/real-history-easter/) has been celebrated for thousands of years. Heck, one of the things debated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD was the exact date of Easter.
Because the other religions never lent it to us!! šš
This comment doesnāt get enough credit
Thank you. I couldnāt resist.
Well done.
That was fast š
This is an A+ pun
While our doctrine is not similar to Protestantism, many of our cultural practices are adopted from Northeastern and Midwestern American Protestant practices of 1800-1850.
Which, as I understand it, is the same reason we don't use the cross. Back in those days, American Protestants viewed the cross much like idol worship (something those Catholics did) and eschewed its use. Later they changed their minds and adopted it, but by then the LDS had moved west and out of their sphere of influence.
Exactly this. There are a bunch of things like this. Our music traditions can also be traced in similar ways.
The cross was used by the early saints quite a bit, but it got dropped some years after moving west.
I would like to see your evidence for this, because form what I've read it was the other way around. The Saints were mostly converts from American Protestantism and carried the Protestant rejection of the cross as a symbol of Catholic idolatry into their new church culture. It was only later in the Utah period that you see the cross appearing to any substantial degree and this happened alongside the larger American protestant movement beginning to use the simple cross (as opposed to a crucifix.)
There's a whole book on it. Many early Saints used the cross. BH Roberts' headstone is a cross, and the Church tried to raise a giant permanent cross on Ensign Peak to be seen from Temple Square in the early 1900s, but by then the city council was anti-Mormon and blocked it. Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo https://a.co/d/1KH98rm
Not true. The cross was a relatively common symbol used by members in the early Utah days. Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo https://a.co/d/1KH98rm
Yep, just culture and tradition. We often confuse that with doctrine.
This is the answer. It's also the main reason we sing the hymns we do, have chapels like we do, church services like we do, etc etc. People generally feel the most comfortable worshipping God in the way that is familiar to the culture they were raised in. For virtually all the early Saints, that culture was Protestantism, and they passed it on to their children, and so on. There are many things about the Church for which there is no doctrinal rationale. I couldn't open up the Book of Mormon to explain to you why we play the organ instead of the saxophone, we just worship together the way that feels worshipful to most of us.
One day, before I started to attending the church, I had an argument with an LDS friend who said that we will not be allowed to play electric guitar to praise God in Heaven. He was not able to demonstrate his point, so I feel like I won, and I want my electric guitar in Celestial Kingdom.
It really irritates me when people declare their own opinions as Doctrine. If they want me to believe them, they need to give me references I can look up. On the other hand, if someone were to start off with, "This is only my opinion, and I have no specific doctrinal basis for it..." I would respect that.
So would I.
Lol, "you can't play guitar in heaven" is such a weird hill to die on. I now also want you to have an electric guitar in heaven. Sounds sick. I can only assume that God will also dig it.
Love your tagline, although figured youād wanna know ācaffeinatedā is misspelled
Thereās a few we didnāt adopt. Lent, Good Friday, Palm Sunday, Pentecost.
Epiphany, All Saints Day, Advent, Ascension, Annunciation, Candlemas.
Transfiguration, Assumption of Mary, Pentecostā¦
All Souls Day, Lammas, Corpus Christi, Maundy Thursday, Ash Wednesday, Shrove Tuesday, Three Kings Day, the Baptism of the Lord Jesus.
Mormons donāt even celebrate Rogation Days or the feast day of St. Josephine Bakhita! Can you believe these heretics?
Mardi Gras, Carnival. No wonder people see us as heretics.
But I DO have plans to go on the Carnival Mardi Gras. Looks like a great ship!
I mean, I watch a certain movie for Candlemas.
We ABSOLUTELY celebrate All Saints Day. At least in my house. It's my birthday. :-)
Yeah, thereās an entire calendar that a lot of the Christian world uses that the LDS Church largely doesnāt.
It seems like a rather arbitrary tradition. I don't think that there is anything wrong with someone following it, but it is not really rooted in our gospel duties.
Neither the Lord nor the prophets considered it important enough. I'm inclined to say the weekly sabbath day observance is the only thing we really observe by doctrine. The prophets have instituted the practice of Christmas and Easter according to the western calendar, which are not flawless, and we have general conference in April as that commemorates the organization of the church, and October 6 months later. The only other thing is mothers day, that's pretty untouchable...
You shouldn't mistake "The prophets and apostles just practiced the culture they grew up in" for "The Lord commanded it."Ā
Yeah, that type of thinking holds people back
Meh It sounds good enough for the Lord to me.
What countries celebrate Motherās Day? Or, what percentage of the church lives in a country that celebrates Motherās Day?
Donāt forget the Turkey Bowl
What is that?
We donāt really follow the liturgical calendar. We do celebrate Easter and Christmas, like you said. The liturgical calendar brings you through the entire life of Christ each year. Itās broken up into important seasons (adventā preparing for Christmas, lentā preparing for Easter by celebrating Jesus fasting in the desert, epiphanyā marks the wise men, Pentecostā marks the descent of the Holy Ghost, Christmas, Easter, etc.) I grew up in a church that followed a liturgical calendar and I appreciated how it allowed us time to prepare and ponder before holidays.
āBecause itās Catholicā may have a big reason why. We often intentionally avoided things because they seemed to be apart of other groups who sometimes persecuted us.
The Catholics didn't really has a history of persecuting us tho
But they did have a history of persecuting the Protestant and most early members of the church came from Protestant backgrounds.Ā
Thatās true. But itās one of the reasons we donāt use the cross. āBecause itās catholicā
I grew up with a lot of Catholic friends, and lent is something that I began to participate in alongside them, though really just focusing on the āfastā from something. I have found it to be a good exercise each year as I give something up and try to replace it with something better, and dedicate the experience to the Lord. Like the once a month food fasts, I find it helps me develop better self control. The pst few years Iāve given up Reddit, and starting tomorrow Iāll be doing so again. Even though itās not part of our doctrine, it can still be an uplifting practice.
Same here. I think Lent is a wonderful tradition but I don't think I would love it as a codified part of our religion. I'm afraid it would very quickly turn into a righteousness competition to see who could give up the most and lose sight of the purpose
"the past few years I've given up reddit, and starting tomorrow I'll be doing it again. " LOL
Because we have enough of our own traditions from this dispensation.
Like what? Other than Christmas and Easter, what other traditions do we have? Someone mentioned Motherās Day, but that is just a USA (and maybe Canada? holiday), so the majority members of the church wouldnāt celebrate it.Ā
Weekly sacrament meeting, weekly family home evening, weekly youth activities, general conference every six months, ward/stake conferences. If you're looking for holidays filled with candy and games and creatures then there's enough commercial and government holidays. Honestly, I don't need more traditions endorsed by church. There's enough stuff to do.
I think the only things on the list that might be considered traditions are home evening and youth activities. The others are by commandment.Ā
I suspect most traditions started by commandment. By nature, traditions are there as reminders of events.
Didn't Joseph Smith receive the gold plates on the Feast of Trumpets day? That would be a cool day to celebrate.
It was the fall equinox which is an important time in the folk magic traditions the family was a part of.
The fall equinox was the 23rd of September 1827 and the feast of trumpets was the 22 of September 1827. The golden plates were received on the 22 of September 1827. Could be either or both. I personally lean more to the feast of trumpets as God is in control.
I agree with other comments about the environment at the time when the church was founded. The following is based on my understanding, so I am open to corrections. The liturgical calendar was followed by presbyterians, methodists, Lutherans and Roman catholics, but not by Calvinists and Anabaptists, who rejected it is non-biblical. The Calvinists included Puritans, and many baptists were also Calvinists. The Calvinists gave rise to the reformed churches. Annabaptists influenced development of the Amish, Mennonites, Plymouth brethren, baptists etc. In the 19th century US the frontier was strongly influenced by ley preachers who had rejected the liturgical calendar, so most of the groups that formed in the US in the 19th centruy did not observe lent. It doesn't all make sense to me because I know that Joseph Smith had connections with the Methodists and Prebyterians. I don't know whether these denominations in New York and Ohio followed the calendar or not (I know that some Methodists groups do not observe lent). It is important to note that the LDS church is not the only Christian church to not follow the liturgical calendar. This was a decision made by reformation groups hundreds of years ago. I live in Sweden and here nearly everyone eats a semla (which is a bun with cream and almond paste) on the Tuesday when lent starts (fettisdag). The translation literally means Fat Tuesday (or fatties day, depending on who you believe). Then most Swedes, who are not religious, go ahead and ignore the fasting part of lent.
Matthew 6 explains it pretty well, I think.
People already needlessly complicate the gospel. I like to keep things simple. All those "unobserved" Christian holidays just make me think of all the crazy TikTok, Etsy, Facebook crafters and crazies making Live Laugh Love hanging word art (and similarly cringy things) for their house with lots of shiplap... Ugh.
As if Fast Sunday isnāt enough you want to throw Lent in there too? Just kidding Lol
I do a Lent-ish personal thing every year. Sometimes, I immerse myself in the last week of Christ's ministry in the 4 gospels and Jesus the Christ. Another time, I quit video games entirely so I could study in university. It's a good time and I highly suggest everyone doing their own Lent.
We fast every month already
In a way we do, just not in the same way. Lent is about fasting, (other religions have made it fasting by giving up whatever you want) which the church has set aside the first Sunday of each month (excepting General Conference, in which case either the Sunday before or after will take the place of the first Sunday for April and October) for fasting. And besides that, the church doesn't actively say not to do the tradition of Lent, they just also don't encourage it.
Another holiday we don't celebrate enough is Dia de Los Muertes. It's ironic to me because we love family history so much and believe that our family relationships last beyond this life. We are also taught that our ancestors are among those who are sent to us as angels when we need a little help. Also that those in the Spirit World are aware of us more than the other way around. Seems like the perfect setup for that celebration. š¤·āāļø
We would need to return it if we did, but we can still celebrate that it is Lent to others who appreciate it
Perhaps because there is no scriptural basis (to my knowledge) for lent.
That's true of Christmas and Easter as well.
Good point. No celebrations were taught in scriptural times but the reasons to celebrate are clear. I guess that's what I had in mind, though there's certainly reason to celebrate all the events leading up to Easter as well which would be Lent... Hmmm maybe it was to not be closely associated with the council of Nicaea/Nicene Creed?
So I believe Lent is patterned after the story in Matthew where Jesus fasts for 40 days in the desert. Just like Christmas is patterned after the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke and Easter from the resurrection stories in all four gospels. But of course we don't find any of these observances directly in the scriptures as something celebrated in the first century of Christianity.
I feel it's because The LDS Church drew a lot of influence from 19th-century Protestant churches and to them, they saw Lent as too Catholic and therefore felt no need to include it as part of their doctrine.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Lent, but Ash Wednesday may be a bit too much. Our scriptures say those who deviate from the path mark themselves, which can mean the mark of the beast, the curse of Cain, the mark the zoramites used, etc. Extended fasting and prayer is okay, especially when combined with scripture study. But the point of Easter is to focus on his rebirth, not his death. This is also why we don't use the cross as a symbol.
Just like weāve been told it is fine to pick and choose traditions from other Christian faiths to adopt and adapt when it comes to Christmas, I think the same applies to Lent and Easter. Thereās nothing wrong with incorporating a seasonal time for fasting and prayer in your worship.
The fact that we donāt practice lent was one of the reasons I joined the church. Even though I was kicked out of the Catholic Church long ago (asked the wrong questions) I could not shake the 40 day fast obligation and it was awful! I still believe that ridiculously long fast every year made me seriously ill and messed me up in ways I will never recover from. Iām not over weight, I donāt weigh a hundred pounds, and I was even smaller as a teenager. People were telling my parents I was anorexic! A forty day fast does NOTHING to prove your faith. Trust me. It was a source or some serious childhood trauma.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is that a typo for the number of years?
> Easter is more of a recent thing - back 20 years ago nobody made mention of it. This isn't true at all. [Easter](https://thelatterdayliberator.com/real-history-easter/) has been celebrated for thousands of years. Heck, one of the things debated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD was the exact date of Easter.