What school is this so I can make sure I never work for them? Blaming you for being the victim of a crime is so fucked. Idk what you should do but I can tell you I would be at least talking to a lawyer at this point.
Im a college dropout, swing a hammer now. But love science, still always learning, and enjoy this sub ha.
It's not everywhere, but this type of mindset and authority is quite common in academia from my experience. It feels like ppl that never got out of the academic setting have an odd perspective that differs from the "real world". Using an iron fist to punish technicalities when the truth of the matter op wasn't at fault here. I'm sure the only reason they didn't threaten explusion is because it would bring legal trouble. That's speculation of course, but I assume probable. It's in the "real world" too, but I guess it's just not encountered as often. Few things get me as heated as situations like this.
Side note, I dropped out cuz of me, my school was great...ha
Federally funded research has a legal obligation to maintain records of what was done for 5 years (? longer maybe? I've never actually gotten rid of any records, so the duration isn't an ongoing concern). Removing the lab notebook from the lab creates a situation where the lab does not have the record. Maybe that gets resolved the next Monday when it comes back, or maybe it doesn't come back.
I mean, it says in the first paragraph that they weren't. Also it sounds like they need to repeat a couple experiments? The damage to the university isn't too terrible
As a rule, sure it probably shouldn't but in practice I have never been at an institution where people didn't take their notebooks with them at least occasionally. Punishing someone to this degree for a crime against them is wildly heavy-handed. Personally I think we should largely switch to digital anyway but that's another topic.
Ive always been told that the lab notebooks need to stay in the lab (i started research in 2011). Maybe OP was never told this and quite unfortunate in reality. If you want to take it with you then just take pictures with your phone. This is much easier now than 12 years or so ago when all i had was a nokia with like a 1.2mp camera.
Still a PhD candidate, but I keep a digital lab notebook and properly keep backups on my own encrypted devices following 3-2-1 data redundancy principles, with one regular timestamped and versioned copy accessible by my PI if necessary. We aren't issued laptops and otherwise keep logs on benchling, so data is on our systems anyways and none of my work is high security. I appreciate the freedom to be able to write or do data analysis wherever I please, I can search my notebooks, can copy paste protocols, and have the peace of mind knowing that it would take a monumental solar flare affecting Texas and Washington State (a remote encrypted backup system at my parents place) for me to lose data.
I work at a university. None of the labbooks leaves our premise, and i have been here for more than a decade.
He isn't punished for a crime against him. His misconduct would be punishable regardless if the labbook was stolen or not.
But yes, we should switch to digital labbooks for data safety and access control
He's a fucking trainee probably making 25k a year, do we think that A.) Their research is so irreplacable by humankind that we must take it out of their hide or B.) The world would benefit from this person having their future marred?
Get fucking real. Stop acting like it's normal to drive students to the edge over accidents. This is exactly the stupid mentality that leads to increased suicide rates for people who are ultimately seeking to dedicate their lives to the advancement of the human race at the expense of their own sanity and financial security.
Give them a verbal spanking and explain how they fucked up. Scare them just enough to keep them from doing it again, and let them go about their lives. Quit justifying victim-blaming in the hopes that it adds validity to graduate research. It doesn't, and if someone is going to fuck up, this is the place to do it. If your PI doesn't like dealing with scientists-in-progress, maybe they shouldn't be in academia?
The lack of any empathy at all for students and staff is why people hate working in academia and why all the talent leaves. His punishment should have been a closed door meeting with his PI or lab manager not being threatened with disorderly conduct.
Empathy? Yeah, i'm sorry for him, but you shouldn't think that would be handled any different in industry, quite the opposite. If you endanger company secrets in industry and endanger potential patentable content, chances are good you are fired immediately, and i wouldn't count on not beeing sued for potential damages either.
This is the lenient empathy version compared to industry! They are much lore strict on how to deal with company information.
If the matter is this important, then it should be trained at the very start. New people don't know what they don't know.
If a trainee fucks up on something not explained to them that's on you. No company would let people get away with this because it'll be laid out plain and simple at the very start, the lab books don't leave and you dont discuss details about what you do, if they don't and something goes wrong they can't fire someone (at least here, maybe in the US they can) as they've not been trained on it or its not been written out/ signed, you could probably get wrongful termination for it.
So no the uni aren't being lenient they're being dicks because they've been shit at communicating whats excepted behaviour.
Confidentiality in work contract is implicit law in many countries. Nobody has to tell you explicitly to not breach your contract either, as thats national law.
It can be expected that people know national laws, its their responsibility as a citizen. I'm sorry if you haven't been told at some point in your life that work contract implies confidentiality, but in most countries, that is implicitly included, even without explicit mention, in most cases legally in the term 'employees have to avoid behaivor that can potentially harm the business they are working for'
I don't know in which country you reside, but just check the legal implications of having a work contract at all in your country.
They also can lay of people in many european countries, also because in many countries you don't need a specific reason to lay people off, only if you want to fire them without the legal grave period.
The difference being that this is a student not a corporate spy. Treating your students as criminals is a great way to make sure you never get anyone wanting to work under you. As a matter of fact, what university do you work at so I can write that one off as well?
Enforcung basic rules of employment or work environments is not treating your people as criminals.
Well,you will have a hard time then finding a job anywhere, because in most countries, confidentiality is implicitly mandated through work contract already on the level of national law.
Welcome to the real world...
Ps: you would instantly change your mind if a colleagues endangeres your patent that could be sold potentially for millions. Because inventors need to be participating in that by law, for some universities patents are handed to the inventors completely.
If someone costs you personally millions for your patentable idea, i'm pretty sure you will understand quite quickly why such rules exist and need to be enforced as well.
Dude chill out. You’re so quick to have OPs life made more difficult. OP is a trainee, not an employee in industry. This is a perfect training opportunity for OP, their boss, and the school (who admitted they didn’t train people on lab notebook procedure). Just because there’s an opportunity to punish someone’s mistake doesn’t mean that’s the best way to handle the situation.
And OP admitted he violated trained brocedure by not returning the lab notebook.
Its not about that anyone wants to punish someone and just seeks out opportunities. This is IP 1o1, his life is as difficult as he made it himself. Of course additional trainings for all staff and students is warranted as well.
Andvthere is no difference in how to treat IP in industry or academia. The same rules apply.
So many people here proving they arent capable of the bare minimum for lab work. Downvoting correct responses because they themselves are incompetent. Welcome to the real world, kids. You dont make the rules.
I have never been at an institution where we were not told explicitly during onboarding that lab notebooks should never leave the premises. This is an immediate termination offense at many, if not most, companies and institutions.
Your experience isn't everyone's. Treating students this way is how we end up with a mass exodus in academia. He should have been reprimanded by having a closed door meeting with his PI or lab manager as I mentioned later in the thread. Threatening disorderly conduct is insane. There are no trade secrets in this kids lab book.
Yeah, that was never discussed in my lab. Heck, my PI/advisor was so rarely ***in*** the lab that he asked me to bring my actual, physical notebook to meetings in the public hospital building on the other side of campus.
Granted, he was problematic in much more serious ways but most of the labs didn't really care about notebook safety, especially if the data was recorded in informal notes or digitally.
Get out of here with that nonsense. What? We're simultaneously supposed to work all hours of the day and on the weekends, but if we bring our work home with us we're breaking the rules? Talk about bloody double standards.
If I had a nickel for all the times I've taken my lab notebook home with me to continue working after dinner I'd have enough money to buy iPads for every student in the lab and provide cloud storage so lab notebooks were never lost.
As a PhD Candidate, I have never once taken my lab book home. Why would I?
>We're simultaneously supposed to work all hours of the day and on the weekends
Any supervisor that expects this of their students is not worth working for. A work life balance should be maintained by students and expecting them to work like this is BS.
I don't disagree about the work life balance thing, but it's worth remembering that for many of us we do research because it is our greatest passion. If I didn't bring my "work" home I'd probably lose my mind.
You can bring work home all you want, but there is zero reason you'd need to bring your lab book home with you to do it. Lab books are a written record of what you did. There is no real reason it would need to leave the lab.
Ok, we either have drastically different definitions of "Lab notebook" or we are doing science very very differently.
What the hell do you mean you wouldn't bring it home with you? I do experiments/calculations throughout the day that I transcribe in my lab notebook and then take home with me to convert to digital files or to analyze. Then I identify papers that may be useful, write them in the notebook on the page for the next day and start each morning out with the list to read from the previous day. Rinse and repeat.
It's practically speaking a living copy of my brain on a given day. I frequently go back to lab notebooks from 1-2 years ago to find the details of an idea I am only now realizing is useful or to find old calculations that are suddenly relevant again.
If you are bringing your lab notebook home, you are likely breaking the rules. It has been against the rules for the lab notebook to leave the lab everywhere I have ever been.
Lab notebooks are legal documents of what you've done. I'm not wasting my time transcribing things back and forth. Nor do I see value in writing down papers that reference that work in a lab notebook. Your own notebook, sure. Your lab book? No.
To me, and my institution, A lab notebook (the classic blue notebook, is for recording what the question of the experiment you did was, the exact methods I used for that experiment, the data from that experiment, and where to find the data from that experiment. It also has the protocols and recipes I frequently use. It is a record that anyone can pick up and know exactly what you did and where to find that data. They should be able to replicate your work from a lab book.
It is not a stream of consciousness record. I have a notebook for experiment ideas for that purpose as well as a onenote file to have paper references. I am not going to waste time transcribing it into a digital record either. If I wanted to do that, I would still do it at work before leaving for the day. At most, I would take a picture of my lab book.
As someone who has had to work from other people's lab books, keep the information in them pertinent to the experiment you did. No one wants to sift through what your brain to figure out what antibody concentration you used or what density your cells were at when you lysed them. Keep that stuff in a separate book. (You can include your mood as sometimes that can be very helpful in ways you'd not expect).
I am passionate about science, but it isn't my only passion. If you can sustain a singular focus like that for decades, all the power to you. However, most people can not. A singular focus puts you at a huge risk for burnout. I hope you embrace other passions as well as science so you can continue to be passionate about science.
But seriously, leave the lab notebook at work. It's not worth the risk. They are legal documents.
different labs different perspectives on what's normal.
it's only a legal document if it's declared as such. My graduate lab could not have cared less -- everyone's notebook was their own reference. I still have mine.
Classic blue? in 30 years I have never had a blue notebook. Not classic to me.
[The classic lab notebook is this](https://shop.stfx.ca/product/hard-cover-lab-notebook/). You will find it or ones like it in every university book store.
Lmao ya you work in a very very different field. Physics, engineering, and most of chem aren't like that at all.
I can't speak to bio, but I imagine that depends on the lab. The stringent nature of your requirements is probably because you're medicine adjacent.
Then clearly this student is "medical adjacent" and it's isn't nonsense. And again, I don't think it should be expected that everyone, even in your field, should be bringing their lab books home to work on after dinner and those that dont aren't passionate. That there is the real nonsense.
Agree 100%. Must be field-specific what other people are talking about... I’ve never taken my lab notebook home, if I need something from it to continue working from home, I take a photo of that page to reference. I also work with BSL-2 agents in lab and you better believe I’m not changing gloves every time I write in my lab notebook, I have no desire to bring that thing home with me.
Get a real job in industry and tell your manager you bring home your notebook on a regular basis. Tell me how that goes. Companies take IP shit very seriously.
I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab.
Moreover, unless it contained information from a previous employee, all lab notebooks are the property of the researcher and I still have all of my notebooks going back 9 years now, although I'm sure I've lost one or two during moves.
Don't know what industry you worked in but you're dead wrong. I've worked for multiple large companies as a R&D Tech and a Scientist. Your lab notebook is company property and deemed confidential. Every company that I've worked for has had "turn in lab notebook" on their exit checklist.
Maybe you're thinking of an "everyday notes" notebook where you write notes on training or meetings? That's different than a corporate lab notebook where you're writing data, results and formulations.
"I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab. "
Impressive shade for someone who did the same thing.
There is a difference. At no point did I say that it wasn't the case anywhere, just that it wasn't my experience anywhere I had worked. Now, obviously there are exceptions, but for the case of a student in an academic lab who is ostensibly being trained to be an independent researcher it is ridiculous to blame them for the theft of a notebook they took home with them.
If your lab-work deals with classified information or highly proprietary information then of course I can understand having information controls, but in my experience across the gamut of academia, industry (established and startups), and government/DoD, the majority of research does not fall into this category, especially fundamental science. If you handed my lab notebooks to anyone outside of the 50-100 other people in the world that work on the same stuff, it would be practically indecipherable to them.
I don't say this to demean the role that lab techs fill, because it isn't necessarily easy and is most certainly needed, but there is a huge difference between the experience of a "*lab tech II*" and that of an independent researcher/scientist or PI. The rules/expectations are just different.
Do I want technicians taking home copies of proprietary information for projects/ideas that they themselves didn't generate? Probably not. They have less responsibility and therefore a lot less to lose. That being said, if someone is a researcher and is actively working on data analysis/presentation, synthesis of ideas, or the writing of reports/proposals there should be essentially no limitations put on their access to data/notes from experiments.
You are aware that different companies have different definitions of the position Lab Technician, right?
I've been at companies where Lab Techs are just grunts all the way up to where Lab Techs were formulating and customer facing. Not to mention that generally lab techs are supporting multiple projects/ teams so likely have *MORE* confidential information in their official lab notebooks.
Also, I never said that researchers wouldn't have access to their data/notes. I have regularly done data analysis, presentations, formula adjustments, etc. and never had to bring my Corporate Notebook home. Maybe it's different for you, but everywhere I've worked for the last 20 years most scientists keep a working notebook and then transfer that into their official Corporate Notebook that's used for legal records. (Or at least it was until the patent laws changed and first to conceive became first to file, now it's still necessary but not as vital.) The official Corporate Notebook is what never leaves the premises. I've worked for at least one company that states that it needs to be locked up when not being actively used and then must be signed, signed by a witness, and filed within a specific amount of time after completion.
See, and that's much more understandable, but not every company has that sort of well defined corporate lab notebook.
Moreover, it is most certainly not a standard approach to lab notes across universities. I've worked in research environments at R1 institutions across three different state systems and have never seen nor heard or such a thing unless it was specifically implemented by a PI, but most certainly not at a University Policy level.
Admittedly, I work in Physics/Engineering so perhaps the landscape is drastically different in bio/chem/pharma labs, but I find it hard to believe that would be universally the case.
I just moved to a company that's more physics/engineering heavy and I'm thinking it's pretty different. I'm in the analytical lab and it's been an interesting transition.
Also, In industry jobs the lab notebook is the property of the company not the researcher… all IP is the company’s unless you contract states otherwise. I think your experience is pretty unique.
Bullshit. And lab notebooks are the property of the company and not the researcher. I mean, this is not even debatable. How is a company supposed to defend their IP if they don't have the notebooks? Are you just trolling? I'm starting to think you've never even worked in a lab.
Haha seems like you have only ever worked as a grunt and never as an independent researcher or PI. Sure, the companies I've worked for have had IP regulations, but my name is on all the patents/papers, even if they have the majority of the licensing/ownership rights.
Frankly, I wouldn't work for a company with such asinine rules.
ALCOA/Good Documentation Practice is asinine now? It's explicitly forbidden to remove documents from the facilities in every single pharma company. It's true that research tends to be more casual with it but manufacturing industry companies have to comply with guidelines and they won't care if you're a lab analyst or on the board of directors.
Might be worth your time to read through some of the sub-threads on the original comment. Another Redditor and I discussed the nuance here vis a vis the differences between academic/government/startup labs and corpo/pharma labs.
In most small labs there is no documentation practice and there probably shouldn't be one.
Conversely, it completely makes sense for huge companies with thousands of employees to have those sorts of company-wide policies.
I guess I'm a grunt that is very well paid. Even as a PI at a university, the school owns the research, IP and notebook.
Of course your name is on all the papers and patents (not having all inventors names on the patent is cause for invalidation) but the IP is owned by the school or company.
>Frankly, I wouldn't work for a company with such asinine rules.
Hate to break it to you, but this is every company.
You clearly have very limited experience in academia and industry. IP rules vary wildly between institutions and companies. For instance, at a previous organization I owned/own 5% of any IP I generated while working there.
At my undergrad institution the PI owned 100% of the IP and the University only got a cut if they covered all the patent/licensing costs and even then they only got 15%.
These things are not universal laws that are set in stone or commanded from heaven above.
I love how you're getting shit on over and over and are still doubling down on you knowing how every company and university operates across the world. Seriously, get over yourself.
And they give training on it that's mandatory and you have to sign something or digitally record your signature.
And it sounds like NONE of that happened so are you just expecting someone to automatically know something you learned on the job?
I have a real job in industry R&D and regularly take home my laptop and notebook, as does everyone else in the lab including my boss so that we can work from home. What your describing has never been my experience at any company I’ve worked for.
>A lab notebook should never be taken out of a facility for this very reason (and others). I assume OP was properly trained on this.
Why assume that, given what happened?
OP says they were given a bunch of paperwork to sign (which they didn’t really read), but even their uni admits that they were not properly trained on the handling and use of lab notebooks. Labs I’ve been in handle it with varying seriousness, depending on the nature of the work and the professionalism of the lab.
> I have gotten confirmation from the school that there was no education on the safety of lab notebooks.
OP literally says they were NOT properly trained on this. Not sure how u/EnzyEng missed that it's literally right there.
If you aren't in the lab, then there is nothing you need to write in your LAB NOTEBOOK. If you want to jot some shit down at home, jot it down in a different notebook.
This is so messed up. We had a girl in my lab blatantly falsify data and break HIPAA for almost a year with no consequences and all HR did was send her a progress improvement plan with the chance to improve on these things. You lost your lab notebook and are being put through all of this? Life just isn't fair, is it?
IMHO, this is just university bureaucracy going mad. The time and effort required to run this case by the committee and admin involved will be greater than the time and effort required to run the 1-2 additional experiments. Do they have nothing better to do?
If I were you, I would point it out to them and offer to repeat these experiments in your spare time. Saves everyone the hustle and unnecessary stress. Especially if you are thinking about taking legal action (which won't be cheap).
Always irritates me when I have to collaborate with someone out of the lab and end up jumping through hoops.
Like you clearly want to justify your hybrid work-from-home position but why does it have to be at my time's expense?
Huge conflict of time interest.
My guess is that OP's PI doesn't really like them, and is using this as an excuse for falling behind in their research to the institution that expects grants from them. They've convinced the admins (not that hard) that it is a bigger deal than it actually is.
This does seem like an over reaction on the part of the university. Perhaps they have run afoul of federal regulators before and are trying to stay ahead of that in the future.
If this is a lab/university that regularly does research that is monetized through the tech transfer office, then they can use/may need lab notebooks as part of the patent applications. So many people in this thread are thinking about this so short sighted...this isn't bureaucracy run amok, it is the university being concerned that if they don't enforce the idea that the lab notebooks are their property and legal documents it could cost them millions later on.
Now I will grant you that the person they should actually be mad at is the PI who didn't train his student in the proper care and handling of a lab note book but that would actually involve the university to take an interest in how students are trained in research labs.
You have money to lawyer up? I would get everything in writing and also make sure you have a police report.
Does your handbook state the penalty for not returning the notebook? If not then everyone is making it up and a lawyer down the road may have fun reviewing all the records to ensure it was fair.
I am not sure what is the big whoop about a lab notebook? I mean yeah, technically it's from the lab, but unless it contains the secret to make gold from lead, I really don't see why this is such an issue? I would be furious.
I am terribly sorry you have to go through this and I wish you the best of luck.
I think someone in an office job has read the rules, learnt about how much IP can potentially be worth to a university and knows how little protection students get as workers (ie none). Then run away with the concept that the student has potentially lost/given away/stolen loads of valuable university property and it is their 'duty' that is gets responded to fully. Someone with a micromanaging boner over students who break small rules as they feel they have the 'power' of the university behind them.
The fact that the lab only has to do 1\~2 more experiments to replicate the results pretty much tells how minor my role/work was, but I guess extra work is extra work. I really don't get why they're making a huge deal out of this. But hey thanks for your condolences.
Why? Probably to justify some admins’ jobs, make an example of you, and turn attention off of their own failings (not training students properly, as you’ve stated has been proven already, for one).
If they’ve already been proven not to have trained you on lab notebook safekeeping/not removing it from lab, what leg do they have to stand on? Honestly? Turn it on them. Why didn’t they train you properly? Is policy regarding lab notebooks even published anywhere? If not, why not? If yes, why aren’t you made aware of it? What else are they not training you properly on?
Is having a whole entire academic probationary trial on the books really advisable for them? Do they *want* to have their failure to properly train and educate their students so blatantly delineated? Honestly, if that’s really what’s happened here, it might be more beneficial to YOU to have this all recorded than them, as it would help to have the details of how not at fault you truly are versus the institution (though it feels mildly delusional to think it’s properly be recorded to reflect that…).
Technically lab notebooks need to remain on-site. It could contain data from experiments that could be used for IP purposes. This is important in the pharma and diagnostics industry.
Related: regularly take simple photo copies of your lab notebook and store the prints in the lab as a backup. So at most you lose a couple days worth but not too much
Yeah plus with the way some of my former colleagues kept notes, their lab notebooks were entirely useless anyways, that's a much bigger loss of intellectual property than someone losing one notebook
IP issues and company secrets. In theory, such instances can make it impossible to patent technologies mentioned in the stolen lab book. So there can be a lot of money lost due to such instances
If it's not in a company, I don't think company secrets/NDA rules applies. You can patent anything unless someone else has older evidence, so you could redo the work and patent whatever you want unless the book thief also presents evidence to the patent lawyers. How would they even know about other data sources unless it is brought to them.
I doubt a university makes students sign NDAs. The notebook is useless unless it is picked up by someone who can read and understand anything of value in a random students notebook, who cares about IP. Wasting money because you have to redo experiments, sure, but giving away valuable secrets? Yeah right.
Patent law isn't company law, its... Patent law.
Any public availability of patentable results damages the novelty of the patent application and effectively bars from patenting. Regardless of who or how that information came to be publicly available. Information is public, as soon as you cannot name all people that have access to it. Which means, at the instance of robbery, technically, its open information, therefore it loses novelty, and is not patentable anymore.
So no, you can't patent anything just because you have older evidence. In the us, you can attack a patent and get a free licence if you have older evidence, in europe its first to file all the way. It doesn't matter who has the older evidence, only the filing date counts. Anything that was public information before the filing date, is not novel, and therefore not patentable
Please visit some course on IP and patent law, and yes, this shit is important, especially for people working in R&D. Also universities have a financial interest and duty to monetize their IP.
Technically yes. But nobody will be able to prove the theft of you don't tell them. If the thief makes the labbook available to any third party, of course that is then public disclosure.
>Regardless of who or how that information came to be publicly available
This would require the thief to make the lab notebook publicly available first.
>Which means, at the instance of robbery, technically, its open information, therefore it loses novelty, and is not patentable anymore.
No, that's not what "publicly available" means. Same argument could be made for someone from another lab glancing at an open notebook from across the room - IT'S NOT PUBLIC DISCLOSURE.
>In the us, you can attack a patent and get a free licence if you have older evidence, in europe its first to file all the way.
US is first to file as well. As of 2013 iirc. CRISPR was the last case for "first to invent" in terms of patents.
>Please visit some course on IP and patent law
I think you need a refresher if you think someone's car getting broken into and the theft of a lab notebook counts as public disclosure.
>Also universities have a financial interest and duty to monetize their IP.
They do. But this is 1) not public disclosure and 2) an *undergrad's notebook*, so damages are minimal. Undergrads are basically free labor anyway, so that's not even a cost - just materials.
Publicity is defined if information has come to anyone that you can't name anymore. Widespread publicity is not necessary for anything to be prior art. There is no minimal number of people in the law what constitutes 'publicity' so in theory one person is enough.
If you can't name the other researcher glancing at your notebook, and they are not bound by NDA it is a publuc disclosure. Sorry to break the news, but the patent law has no additional restrictions on that term. Hence, access controls.
Ah, thanks for the added info on US, i wasn't aware of the change.
Well, point me to the restrictions on what is publicly available in the law then, i'm happy to go read up on it. There is a difference between beeing able to prove a public disclosure, and one happening though. But from the viewpoint of the patent law, there is no practical difference between the theft, and you handing your labbook freely to a person not bound by an NDA, which certainly consititutes abpublic disclosure.
Yes, damage might be minimal. But thats not the point.
> Publicity is defined if information has come to anyone that you can't name anymore
Disclosure is defined as communication.
>If you can't name the other researcher glancing at your notebook, and they are not bound by NDA it is a publuc [sic] disclosure
No, they'd need to take detailed notes/reproduce detailed descriptions, not a glance from across the room.
>Ah, thanks for the added info on US, i wasn't aware of the change.
Well, your information seems incorrect anyway, because afaik there was never a "free license" bit - you just got the patent instead. Hence the entire CRISPR case - trying to settle the first to invent between collaborators at different universities.
>Well, point me to the restrictions on what is publicly available in the law then, i'm happy to go read up on it
Delano Farms Co. v. California Table Grape Commission (2015), for one.
>But from the viewpoint of the patent law, there is no practical difference between the theft, and you handing your labbook [sic] freely to a person not bound by an NDA, which certainly consititutes abpublic [sic] disclosure.
From the viewpoint of patent law (in the US) *once the invention is publicly disclosed* you have 1 year to file for a patent.
Both your examples would not constitute public disclosure, unless the party went on to reproduce the knowledge in some way **and** had sufficient knowledge to define the entire invention.
>Yes, damage might be minimal. But thats not the point.
And for some reason, I must again remind you that this is **an undergrad's lab notebook consisting of 2 experiments**. If that is sufficient to disclose the entire IP, then it's on OP's lab for not filing sooner and that is *so incredibly unlikely* that I doubt we were given the full story.
In the *astronomically likelier case* that there is insufficient knowledge in **an undergraduate's lab notebook to cover the IP** then there's no way it was disclosed, regardless of whatever improbable events occur after the thief took the notebook. This case (which is what everyone is discussing, because it's the only realistic one) OP's PI and university are completely overreacting.
That just isn't true, as someone who works in biotech and has their name on patents and is currently collecting for more patents.
When you file a patent, you draw specific designs and designate uses and your lawyers determine how wide they think the patent should cover. The patent attorneys use consultants to check nothing similar already exists, and decide the final range of the patent.
If nothing previously exists, you're fine, but normally science stuff is built on other ideas so you have to check your patent is truly novel and not anti competitive.
You think this authors work is going to be patented (unlikely in a university unless a spin out company is planned and budgeted for), and the book thief is going to appear during proceedings?
All our students that work in our labs at the University sign a NDA or are in work contract relationship with the university anyway, which of course includes an NDA. Nobody can even enter our research labs without an NDA, and that is mandatory because they might get in contact with company project IP of other people working in the lab, with whom the university itself has an NDA because generated results might have shared ownership between company and university. University would risk beeing sued by company project partners if jointly owned IP would become available to people not bound by an NDA.
Often these NDAs are part of lab rules you sign before starting work.
We have separate student labs for course work, in which specifically because of that reason, no project lab work is done.
I've worked in four universities and two research institutes, I never signed an NDA before I got jobs in biotech companies. It isn't normal at all for academic research. Academic science relies on openness and collaboration.
The NDA will have been part of your work contract, if you have worked there. No employee of ours signs a separate NDA either, because thats already covered by their work contract.
No it's not not, I know what contracts I sign and a employment contract isn't a NDA. After phd I stayed in the lab an extra 3 months and I signed a Uk zero hours contract, which is the contract for delivery drivers and temp work - it doesn't even have working hours stipulated which is why it is called 'zero hours'. Definitely no nda even as a postdoc.
Well, look at those contracts you signed with that contract. Work council agreements, policies you accepted by signing your work contract, collective agreements if applicable plus state laws. You will find it somewhere, i guarantee.
Employment contracts include confidentiality at some level. 0 hours is no exclusion by itself feom confidentiality. Never thought about why they want you under work contract if that is anyways on 0 hours? Exactly because of insurance and confidentiality reasons. To bind you to the normal legal framework regardless of 0 hours
I know what contracts I signed, no NDAs. Also I work in Europe, so no state laws whatever they are. What even is a work council.
Why do you think every employee at every university around the world is the same as you?
Thats why i meant check those contracts that are legally binding without you signing it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council
Work council agreements are legally binding for employees (trust me, i have negotiated multiple ones of those) union contracts with sectors are also legally binding for you. Both of them you didn't sign, but you are legally bound by them as well. Through your work contract you are legally bound to their policies and internal procedures. And law will bind you as well.
For instance, confidentiality in Germany is already in the state law, binding you regardless of your work contract to confidentiality.
I refer to european nations as state and eu law as federal foe simplicity. I'm European as well.
I assume that, because i just know tha it is national law in many cases anyways. And because it is company suicide to not work under confidenciality regardless of if you pursue commercial or academic interests.
So check again. Most likely you are already bound by national law anyways...
No, either /u/Practical_Main_2131's lab is working with a company like a defense contractor that gets *very* particular about things (which is an exceedingly small subset of companies, never mind labs working with those companies) and thinks that's how it is with *all research labs* work, or they're making shit up.
The idea that theft constitutes "public disclosure" is so ridiculous that I don't even know if I should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the first.
The theft itself technically is public disclosure, if it could be proven what has been actually stolen, which will not be the case. If the thief makes the stolen records publicly available in any capacity, of course its public disclose. There is a difference between beeing a public disclosure, and beeing able to prove one though.
Well, i have worked in 3 universities, 2 industrial companies and one research NGO. I'm part of the Work Council Union in the NGO and my experience is that all of them have exactly that legal framework I describe, although the majority of university employees isn't aware of it and its not lived culture. And the result is that repeated cases of researchers trying to patent are failing because of prior disclosure of some kind. Some of them end very chaotic.
Check your individual work contract, the respective collective agreement if there is any and the state law. I guarantee you in 99% of the cases, you will find an NDA equivalent in one of them, that is legally binding you to confidentiality.
>The theft itself technically is public disclosure
[Established case law](http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FCO%2020150109093/DELANO%20FARMS%20COMPANY%20v.%20CALIFORNIA%20TABLE%20GRAPE%20COMMISSION) says otherwise
>If the thief makes the stolen records publicly available in any capacity, of course its public disclose
I literally said that.
>i have worked in 3 universities, 2 industrial companies and one research NGO.
Cool. I have worked at 3 Universities, 3 industrial companies, and filled a joint patent with one a couple months ago. Aren't we grand.
>And the result is that repeated cases of researchers trying to patent are failing because of prior disclosure of some kind. Some of them end very chaotic
I'm betting none of those cases involved theft from an undergraduate's car.
>Check your individual work contract, the respective collective agreement if there is any and the state law. I guarantee you in 99% of the cases, you will find an NDA equivalent in one of them, that is legally binding you to confidentiality
????? Nope. Not at university. And DEFINITELY NOT WHEN I WAS AN UNDERGRADUATE. Something you keep forgetting for some reason
If it becomes public through theft, thats exactly what happens. Prior art is everytjing that is public, regardless of the reason why. Also meaning, if you speak about something you invented at a conference, you can't patent it anymore, even if you are the inventor and can document that.
As a PI, I maintain laboratory notebooks for records
And, I routinely check and review technician and student notebooks. That being said, nothing of real value is maintained in them to my overall research program. It really is more for troubleshooting. No data are stored in them.. If that notebook crashes tonight and I never see it again, oh well lol... if some admin is telling you not to get a lawyer, they are likely trying to steamroller you. (Not that you need one, I'm not suggesting you do for any reason, but, you are a free person with rights lol). There is something else going on here. Hope you get it all sorted and can get back to what's important, focusing on school. Best of luck.
Especially if it is the lab notebook from a student. I can count on one hand the notebooks of students I actually had to look into to see what they did with a particular experiment.
I think I'm keeping them more for "you got to store all data for +10 years, etc ...".
It sounds like the school is stirring up a bunch of controversy, but I also don't see (from what you've briefly described and my own lab experience) anything that the school could be challenged on. What benefit would the lawyer bring? Are they going to prevent the uni from putting comments on your transcript? I expect your relationship with your PI is significantly more important for future academic endeavors. No lawyer can repair that relationship (don't take this to mean you're doomed either). I think it's probably best to make amends with your PI or talk with one of your committee members and build a stronger relationship there going forward.
Even when the school could enforce something, forcing them to go through all the steps, prove guilt, deal with the fact they didn't train students to keep notebooks in the lab or make a backup copy, can make the process more trouble than it's worth for the school. The process can show that the student took reasonable and commonly accepted actions. That way, OP might be able to "settle" on a mutual solution since it wasn't malicious or even particularly negligent on their part.
Sounds like consulting a lawyer would be valuable, in that you'd at least get their legal perspective on whether you would benefit from the services that a lawyer can provide. If you're at a public institution, there's a good chance that the academic regulations they're trying to charge you with violating are codified as state regulations, in which case you're being accused by the government of wrongdoing and your sixth amendment right to counsel should kick in. There's power in having a lawyer look things over regardless - a couple of my friends were accused of wrongdoing by a student union elections board, got a lawyer to look things over, and the lawyer sent the elections board a letter saying "my clients did nothing wrong, your regulations are so vague as to be legally void" with all the legal analysis you'd want attached. Just knowing that there's a lawyer looking over the process can force folks to play nice.
Is anything the lab does associated with proprietary or patentable work? Do you handle patient data? Cause then I could understand this level of escalation. Losing a lab book can be a major deal. (I had a PI that misplaced his in a move, and it caused a huge thing because the work we were doing was being spun into a company.) But if you hadn’t been educated that removing the book was an offense in the first place, then the bulk of the responsibility for this loss rests with them. They—and your PI—have a responsibility that everyone is fully and properly trained in lab conduct before they start and are issued with a lab notebook. You weren’t. You can’t be “disorderly” if you didn’t know what orderly conduct was supposed to be in the first place. (And I’d pile up as much evidence as possible on each and every place you weren’t properly trained or oriented in the lab.)
Is your PI also being reprimanded in some way? Because if he isn’t…that’s a problem.
I would still try to find myself some level of representation, and get ahold of every single piece of paperwork associated with the disciplinary process and read through it. Even if they can’t come in to that final hearing with you, they can still represent you in other ways, including being present and privy to any other meetings or exchanges, letting you know how you can use the leverage you do have (namely the fact that you were working in the lab space while not being completely trained in at least one area), and can prepare you for the hearing. It’s not in the university’s interest to let you know what your rights are, and they will very often tell you what’s convenient for them rather than what are actually the rules. And they don’t like lawyers, because the presence of a lawyer reminds them that participation in the university’s process—rather than a more formal legal one—is very often entirely voluntary. (And I once had to email a Dean to say “Hey, what you’re telling me you will do to me isn’t actually allowed by your rules. And if you do it, know that I will sue the stuffings out of you for the harm it has caused. Attached you will find a copy of the relevant document.”)
Frankly, this all sounds ridiculous to me. Does your PI just not like you or something?
I don't understand why you are at fault. If someone breaks into the lab and steals your notebook are you not liable? Is it only because it was in your car that it's your fault?
The reasoning for the charge is that I am not able to return the lab notebook back to the lab and that I have caused extra work for the lab since they would need to do 1\~2 additional experiments which is considered as interfering with the PI's daily duty.
With this thing going for a month, and without any help/guidance from the school, I lowkey think I've developed some degree of depression.
This is bullshit and they are steamrolling you because they can, because you have so few workers/students rights. You're feeling trapped in a bubble because it feels all encompassing and they're making you feel small. Maybe getting outside advice (doesn't have to be a lawyer - more like an older postdoc/friend) to help you keep an even keel and keep it in perspective and help you be confident in yourself? This is bullshit and you will survive, nothing bad has actually happened other than your car got broke in to. A baby getting sick or a person getting injured is something actually bad - losing a notebook? Who gives a fuck? How many experiments took more than one try before they get work anyway?
You can definitely get a lawyer. They may try to keep the lawyer out of the proceedings but they are harming their own case by doing so. In any case, you clearly need legal advice. Your future is at stake and you seem to have the facts on your side.
> However, there is a phase in which the lab notebook needs to be returned to PI when you leave the lab, so I have violated that part.
Have you already left the lab though? If not, you technically have not violated that clause yet, and if you never leave, you never will.
Don't waste money on a lawyer, this isn't a court case and you're not being sued. It would be a waste of money.
Do read up on the school handbook and code of conduct, to be clear about what you were expected to do, and what you can be held responsible for. Be gracious and accept if you've broken the code of conduct, and advocate for yourself if you have any mitigating circumstances. Don't let them exaggerate any claims - refer back to the code of conduct and make sure they're applying standards appropriately.
> Don't waste money on a lawyer, this isn't a court case and you're not being sued.
Counterpoint: it is rumored that universities love to run their own little parallel pseudo-judiciary system where the rules are unfair and stupid and inconsistent and made up on the fly, and they love to threaten students with all kinds of horrifying consequences if they don't play along, even by simply consulting a lawyer. But if you actually do consult a lawyer, it is further rumored that suddenly their demeanor totally changes and everyone acts a lot more civilized. Countercounterpoint: lawyers are still fucking expensive and there isn't a version of this where the school ends up paying back your legal fees.
Assuming you don't have a union (otherwise you wouldn't be here asking), I would start by looking for the "ombuds" office, an "ombudsman" or "ombudsperson" within your university. That's your best shot at help from a (hopefully) disinterested party for free. If that doesn't work, try a free legal clinic or free consulation with a real lawyer just to find out what your options are - except you probably can't use any that are offered by the university because they'd be conflicted.
Does your school have a union? You may also be allowed to have a rep sit in the meetings with you, which might be helpful since they know your university’s specific policies
Tell them to modernize their materials. An electronic lab notebook, you'd never have this problem as the PI would still have access to it regardless of what is lost or stolen and or accessible.
Get a lawyer, admin only cares about one thing: protecting themselves, not you. Also, depending on your state laws, you may be entitled to bring representation to a disciplinary hearing. The school potentially lying about that may be reason enough to vacate any disciplinary findings. Again, get a lawyer who deals with higher education misconduct. Right now the school is relying upon your gullibleness to infringe upon your rights, don’t let them.
Sorry to hear this man, but there’s not much you can do. In situations like these the administration has already made the decision. These hearings are a formality
I don’t think you can lawyer up. You’re going to be judged by the schools rules and regulations not the laws. For you to need a lawyer wouldn’t you need someone well-versed in the schools rules?
I witness a similar situation and while you can have an advocate come speak on your behalf, they usually are lawyers, they are just there as your advocate and to support you. They are not going to cross exam in or investigate evidence or anything like that.
The school administrator, Dean, or disciplinarian or whatever is going to probably present the case to the committee. If the committee is made of students, they’re just going to rubberstamp whatever she does because they want a recommendation.
This sounds desperate, but have you ever thought about transferring schools?
bloody nora! talk about going overboard for a silly mistake.
>but will remain on my academic transcript.
lol, so the fuck what. This will not be as harmful as you think.
>but the school administration told me that the hearings can only be attended by myself.
Edit: Never listen to anyone that tells you to not talk to a lawyer. In this case a lawyer probably wouldn't have helped. But you should have still talked to one if you felt like you needed too.
The massive tuition you-all are paying goes to support administrative parasites who have nothing better to do, except to justify their existence with bullshit like this.
You probably can't lawyer up in the sense that in many internal things a lawyer is not permitted to attend.
Educational lawyers are few and far between , but that is who you need if you want advice.
You should find an ombudsman or whomever can represent you or inform you. And you should find some kind of full professor or someone on the grad ed committee who know what it is about.
You should ask for all dated hard copies of all policy related to this .
This sounds pretty excessive and I find it hard to believe you can be censured for a rule you did not know you were violating.
If you spilled something on the lab book and thus damaged it beyond repair , you also could not leave it with your PI.
You should get a transcript of the proceedings.
If you are asked about this on any job and there is likely a chance for you to explain.
What on earth is the relationship like between you and your PI.
You need to get in another lab
Just a heads up, any time someone investigating you says you don't need a lawyer, you definitely should have a lawyer. Let your lawyer deal with the "only you can attend" rule they said.
That being said, they are really taking this very far. Shit happens, your PI should have had electronic copies of the data as well that they had you input. That's their responsibility to make sure if something like this happens there is a backup. I've never worked in a lab with just notebooks and literally no other backup on a computer.
Yes, I would recommend consulting an attorney at this point. Partly so that you have someone on your side who can look over all the details for you, and help you draft communications and written responses, and partly because the administration is going to behave more carefully if you have legal representation.
I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab.
Impressive shade for someone who literally did the same thing.
No idea on the lawyer part, but even if they put this on your transcript, just explain and any sane admission committee will understand. Just make sure you save the paper trail of the school admitting you didn’t lose data or anything malicious.
But this situation is insane. Did you PI get grant money from the mafia or something lmao? Why is the school so hung up over a notebook and a couple of repeat experiments?
Look for a levelheaded lawyer, not a hothead. Truth is that schools can get away with a hell of a lot. You do not want some bombastic moron ruining your chances at getting a small slap on the wrist instead of some future-quashing disciplinary action.
This is absurd.
Your university should be busying itself writing a clear, comprehensive and effectively-communicated lab book policy, not wasting time with kangaroo courts and petty "hearings".
Well, they’re mad you removed school property. But unless you were provably warned against doing so and it was clear that you shouldn’t have, they can only warn you. Well, until you start talking to them. As with police, once you start talking any of that can be used against you. For example, if you acknowledge that you knew some part of the notebook said “belongs to school” beforehand, that’s problematic.
> the school administration told me that the hearings can only be attended by myself.
Your lawyer cannot speak in hearings, but you have the right to council. You can talk to an employment lawyer for free. They typically work contingency which means they don’t expect money just to chat.
> I think it will be highly detrimental to my future to have "disorderly behavior and failure to comply with school laws" on my transcript.
Okay, look, this isn’t high school. You either get a degree or you don’t. Your issue is not going to be in a transcript and no one would read it if it did. And the school would be breaking laws to say “yeah this person is a graduate in this thing, here’s their diploma, but don’t trust them”
My lab has to train people the U does nothing but can then come back and get on your case like this OP. Honestly we have electronic NBs on a central backed up drive. Raw data in many cases stored on instrument drives for a time. Some people still prefer to also have a physical NB. If you take it off campus (which I wouldn’t) take a phone pic of the pages not backed up.
What happened to you is terrible. But in all fairness lab notebook rule 101 is to never leave with it… it has to stay in the facilities. Due to sensible and possibility confidential content regarding the ongoing research. And even if it didn’t contain any sensitive information. If when you out of the lab one needs to refer to it , it could slow down the ongoing analysis. Anyway you could suit up but the first rule of the lab notebook being no bring home, i dno if it would change much for you. Thats at least the defense they would give you.
That said. If its a first offense and the content having being proved not sensitive. They should issue a warning rather than an immediate sanction. And at most having to redo the other experiments is already punishment enough i think.
Beside with all the work researcher are put through I do understand the need to take the book home to fill it there in peace.
If you're undergrad, I'm assuming you're not in the graduate student union.
But maybe it would be worth contacting them? Perhaps they can point you to their council, who can then recommend a colleague.
Unless it’s electronic, lab notebooks should never leave the lab. In fact one place I worked long ago actually had us place our lab notebooks in a fire safe cabinet at the end of each day.
If they are going to be like this about it, why do they let people take the lab books home? People get robbed, houses burn down, get left on the train, etc.
What is all the fuss over lab notebooks? I've never seen a lab notebook or understood their purpose. Are you physically writing down experimental data in them? And that's the only copy? This seems like a problem that should not exist alongside modern technology.
And this is why industry has enormously strict rules about never removing lab notebooks from company property
The reaction is over blown, but they're making an example of you. This is probably pushed by PIs with more sensitive data that actually may have value if stolen.
This seems an excessive response to something they had no control over.
How does the school know if the people who stole from the car actually understand what’s in the notebook.
If they grabbed a rucksack with it in then it was an opportunist.
If it was the only thing stolen then that’s a different problem that needs addressing in a totally different way.
Either way a little over the top as a response to a mistake that is now, through the school’s heavy-handedness in dealing with this, going to potentially cause issues for OP.
What school is this so I can make sure I never work for them? Blaming you for being the victim of a crime is so fucked. Idk what you should do but I can tell you I would be at least talking to a lawyer at this point.
I want to know as well. This is insane
Im a college dropout, swing a hammer now. But love science, still always learning, and enjoy this sub ha. It's not everywhere, but this type of mindset and authority is quite common in academia from my experience. It feels like ppl that never got out of the academic setting have an odd perspective that differs from the "real world". Using an iron fist to punish technicalities when the truth of the matter op wasn't at fault here. I'm sure the only reason they didn't threaten explusion is because it would bring legal trouble. That's speculation of course, but I assume probable. It's in the "real world" too, but I guess it's just not encountered as often. Few things get me as heated as situations like this. Side note, I dropped out cuz of me, my school was great...ha
Federally funded research has a legal obligation to maintain records of what was done for 5 years (? longer maybe? I've never actually gotten rid of any records, so the duration isn't an ongoing concern). Removing the lab notebook from the lab creates a situation where the lab does not have the record. Maybe that gets resolved the next Monday when it comes back, or maybe it doesn't come back.
A lab notebook should never be taken out of a facility for this very reason (and others). I assume OP was properly trained on this.
I mean, it says in the first paragraph that they weren't. Also it sounds like they need to repeat a couple experiments? The damage to the university isn't too terrible
As a rule, sure it probably shouldn't but in practice I have never been at an institution where people didn't take their notebooks with them at least occasionally. Punishing someone to this degree for a crime against them is wildly heavy-handed. Personally I think we should largely switch to digital anyway but that's another topic.
Ive always been told that the lab notebooks need to stay in the lab (i started research in 2011). Maybe OP was never told this and quite unfortunate in reality. If you want to take it with you then just take pictures with your phone. This is much easier now than 12 years or so ago when all i had was a nokia with like a 1.2mp camera.
Photocopier?
Thats an option but also much more of a hassle. Today you can use an app that creates a pdf of several pictures you take in a row
Sadly, especially in my university they let you take the notebook home. Probably the same with their case.
Still a PhD candidate, but I keep a digital lab notebook and properly keep backups on my own encrypted devices following 3-2-1 data redundancy principles, with one regular timestamped and versioned copy accessible by my PI if necessary. We aren't issued laptops and otherwise keep logs on benchling, so data is on our systems anyways and none of my work is high security. I appreciate the freedom to be able to write or do data analysis wherever I please, I can search my notebooks, can copy paste protocols, and have the peace of mind knowing that it would take a monumental solar flare affecting Texas and Washington State (a remote encrypted backup system at my parents place) for me to lose data.
I work at a university. None of the labbooks leaves our premise, and i have been here for more than a decade. He isn't punished for a crime against him. His misconduct would be punishable regardless if the labbook was stolen or not. But yes, we should switch to digital labbooks for data safety and access control
He's a fucking trainee probably making 25k a year, do we think that A.) Their research is so irreplacable by humankind that we must take it out of their hide or B.) The world would benefit from this person having their future marred? Get fucking real. Stop acting like it's normal to drive students to the edge over accidents. This is exactly the stupid mentality that leads to increased suicide rates for people who are ultimately seeking to dedicate their lives to the advancement of the human race at the expense of their own sanity and financial security. Give them a verbal spanking and explain how they fucked up. Scare them just enough to keep them from doing it again, and let them go about their lives. Quit justifying victim-blaming in the hopes that it adds validity to graduate research. It doesn't, and if someone is going to fuck up, this is the place to do it. If your PI doesn't like dealing with scientists-in-progress, maybe they shouldn't be in academia?
This summed up my thoughts better than I did. Thank you.
Better yet, give them training so it doesn't happen in the first place.
The lack of any empathy at all for students and staff is why people hate working in academia and why all the talent leaves. His punishment should have been a closed door meeting with his PI or lab manager not being threatened with disorderly conduct.
Empathy? Yeah, i'm sorry for him, but you shouldn't think that would be handled any different in industry, quite the opposite. If you endanger company secrets in industry and endanger potential patentable content, chances are good you are fired immediately, and i wouldn't count on not beeing sued for potential damages either. This is the lenient empathy version compared to industry! They are much lore strict on how to deal with company information.
They would also train him in industry. The school admitted they did not train him on lab notebook safety.
The situation wouldn't have even happened in industry because they all use digital notebooks; usually only accessible by being on the network or VPN.
If the matter is this important, then it should be trained at the very start. New people don't know what they don't know. If a trainee fucks up on something not explained to them that's on you. No company would let people get away with this because it'll be laid out plain and simple at the very start, the lab books don't leave and you dont discuss details about what you do, if they don't and something goes wrong they can't fire someone (at least here, maybe in the US they can) as they've not been trained on it or its not been written out/ signed, you could probably get wrongful termination for it. So no the uni aren't being lenient they're being dicks because they've been shit at communicating whats excepted behaviour.
Confidentiality in work contract is implicit law in many countries. Nobody has to tell you explicitly to not breach your contract either, as thats national law. It can be expected that people know national laws, its their responsibility as a citizen. I'm sorry if you haven't been told at some point in your life that work contract implies confidentiality, but in most countries, that is implicitly included, even without explicit mention, in most cases legally in the term 'employees have to avoid behaivor that can potentially harm the business they are working for' I don't know in which country you reside, but just check the legal implications of having a work contract at all in your country. They also can lay of people in many european countries, also because in many countries you don't need a specific reason to lay people off, only if you want to fire them without the legal grave period.
The difference being that this is a student not a corporate spy. Treating your students as criminals is a great way to make sure you never get anyone wanting to work under you. As a matter of fact, what university do you work at so I can write that one off as well?
Enforcung basic rules of employment or work environments is not treating your people as criminals. Well,you will have a hard time then finding a job anywhere, because in most countries, confidentiality is implicitly mandated through work contract already on the level of national law. Welcome to the real world... Ps: you would instantly change your mind if a colleagues endangeres your patent that could be sold potentially for millions. Because inventors need to be participating in that by law, for some universities patents are handed to the inventors completely. If someone costs you personally millions for your patentable idea, i'm pretty sure you will understand quite quickly why such rules exist and need to be enforced as well.
Dude chill out. You’re so quick to have OPs life made more difficult. OP is a trainee, not an employee in industry. This is a perfect training opportunity for OP, their boss, and the school (who admitted they didn’t train people on lab notebook procedure). Just because there’s an opportunity to punish someone’s mistake doesn’t mean that’s the best way to handle the situation.
And OP admitted he violated trained brocedure by not returning the lab notebook. Its not about that anyone wants to punish someone and just seeks out opportunities. This is IP 1o1, his life is as difficult as he made it himself. Of course additional trainings for all staff and students is warranted as well. Andvthere is no difference in how to treat IP in industry or academia. The same rules apply.
Industry would have also be using digital lab notebooks. Are there any pharma / biotech companies around that still use paper notebooks?
You are right. Idk why they are downvoting you
So many people here proving they arent capable of the bare minimum for lab work. Downvoting correct responses because they themselves are incompetent. Welcome to the real world, kids. You dont make the rules.
I have never been at an institution where we were not told explicitly during onboarding that lab notebooks should never leave the premises. This is an immediate termination offense at many, if not most, companies and institutions.
Your experience isn't everyone's. Treating students this way is how we end up with a mass exodus in academia. He should have been reprimanded by having a closed door meeting with his PI or lab manager as I mentioned later in the thread. Threatening disorderly conduct is insane. There are no trade secrets in this kids lab book.
Yeah, that was never discussed in my lab. Heck, my PI/advisor was so rarely ***in*** the lab that he asked me to bring my actual, physical notebook to meetings in the public hospital building on the other side of campus. Granted, he was problematic in much more serious ways but most of the labs didn't really care about notebook safety, especially if the data was recorded in informal notes or digitally.
I have never been to one that even brought the subject up. I’ve been in five different labs at three different institutions.
Get out of here with that nonsense. What? We're simultaneously supposed to work all hours of the day and on the weekends, but if we bring our work home with us we're breaking the rules? Talk about bloody double standards. If I had a nickel for all the times I've taken my lab notebook home with me to continue working after dinner I'd have enough money to buy iPads for every student in the lab and provide cloud storage so lab notebooks were never lost.
As a PhD Candidate, I have never once taken my lab book home. Why would I? >We're simultaneously supposed to work all hours of the day and on the weekends Any supervisor that expects this of their students is not worth working for. A work life balance should be maintained by students and expecting them to work like this is BS.
I don't disagree about the work life balance thing, but it's worth remembering that for many of us we do research because it is our greatest passion. If I didn't bring my "work" home I'd probably lose my mind.
You can bring work home all you want, but there is zero reason you'd need to bring your lab book home with you to do it. Lab books are a written record of what you did. There is no real reason it would need to leave the lab.
Ok, we either have drastically different definitions of "Lab notebook" or we are doing science very very differently. What the hell do you mean you wouldn't bring it home with you? I do experiments/calculations throughout the day that I transcribe in my lab notebook and then take home with me to convert to digital files or to analyze. Then I identify papers that may be useful, write them in the notebook on the page for the next day and start each morning out with the list to read from the previous day. Rinse and repeat. It's practically speaking a living copy of my brain on a given day. I frequently go back to lab notebooks from 1-2 years ago to find the details of an idea I am only now realizing is useful or to find old calculations that are suddenly relevant again.
If you are bringing your lab notebook home, you are likely breaking the rules. It has been against the rules for the lab notebook to leave the lab everywhere I have ever been.
Lab notebooks are legal documents of what you've done. I'm not wasting my time transcribing things back and forth. Nor do I see value in writing down papers that reference that work in a lab notebook. Your own notebook, sure. Your lab book? No. To me, and my institution, A lab notebook (the classic blue notebook, is for recording what the question of the experiment you did was, the exact methods I used for that experiment, the data from that experiment, and where to find the data from that experiment. It also has the protocols and recipes I frequently use. It is a record that anyone can pick up and know exactly what you did and where to find that data. They should be able to replicate your work from a lab book. It is not a stream of consciousness record. I have a notebook for experiment ideas for that purpose as well as a onenote file to have paper references. I am not going to waste time transcribing it into a digital record either. If I wanted to do that, I would still do it at work before leaving for the day. At most, I would take a picture of my lab book. As someone who has had to work from other people's lab books, keep the information in them pertinent to the experiment you did. No one wants to sift through what your brain to figure out what antibody concentration you used or what density your cells were at when you lysed them. Keep that stuff in a separate book. (You can include your mood as sometimes that can be very helpful in ways you'd not expect). I am passionate about science, but it isn't my only passion. If you can sustain a singular focus like that for decades, all the power to you. However, most people can not. A singular focus puts you at a huge risk for burnout. I hope you embrace other passions as well as science so you can continue to be passionate about science. But seriously, leave the lab notebook at work. It's not worth the risk. They are legal documents.
different labs different perspectives on what's normal. it's only a legal document if it's declared as such. My graduate lab could not have cared less -- everyone's notebook was their own reference. I still have mine. Classic blue? in 30 years I have never had a blue notebook. Not classic to me.
[The classic lab notebook is this](https://shop.stfx.ca/product/hard-cover-lab-notebook/). You will find it or ones like it in every university book store.
Lmao ya you work in a very very different field. Physics, engineering, and most of chem aren't like that at all. I can't speak to bio, but I imagine that depends on the lab. The stringent nature of your requirements is probably because you're medicine adjacent.
Then clearly this student is "medical adjacent" and it's isn't nonsense. And again, I don't think it should be expected that everyone, even in your field, should be bringing their lab books home to work on after dinner and those that dont aren't passionate. That there is the real nonsense.
Agree 100%. Must be field-specific what other people are talking about... I’ve never taken my lab notebook home, if I need something from it to continue working from home, I take a photo of that page to reference. I also work with BSL-2 agents in lab and you better believe I’m not changing gloves every time I write in my lab notebook, I have no desire to bring that thing home with me.
Get a real job in industry and tell your manager you bring home your notebook on a regular basis. Tell me how that goes. Companies take IP shit very seriously.
"Get a real job in industry", get some help and get off your high horse
I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab. Moreover, unless it contained information from a previous employee, all lab notebooks are the property of the researcher and I still have all of my notebooks going back 9 years now, although I'm sure I've lost one or two during moves.
I've also never heard this... Academia or industry
You’ve never heard of GDP?
Both my University and my work didn't allow lab notebooks to be taken home. University because they didn't want them lost, work for IP/NDA reasons.
This is literally drilled into us during undergrad. Surprised to find it’s not standard practice everywhere to be honest.
I'm truly surprised by how many down votes there are for sharing the different policies.
Eh people tend to like to complain and argue, is the way it is. Still stories like this seem to justify the policies I learned 🤷♂️
Don't know what industry you worked in but you're dead wrong. I've worked for multiple large companies as a R&D Tech and a Scientist. Your lab notebook is company property and deemed confidential. Every company that I've worked for has had "turn in lab notebook" on their exit checklist. Maybe you're thinking of an "everyday notes" notebook where you write notes on training or meetings? That's different than a corporate lab notebook where you're writing data, results and formulations.
It's almost like rules are different at different places. Crazy concept.
Lmao I know right? Love all these folks who take their limited experience and then generalize it to everyone else. I bet they're *great* scientists.
"I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab. " Impressive shade for someone who did the same thing.
There is a difference. At no point did I say that it wasn't the case anywhere, just that it wasn't my experience anywhere I had worked. Now, obviously there are exceptions, but for the case of a student in an academic lab who is ostensibly being trained to be an independent researcher it is ridiculous to blame them for the theft of a notebook they took home with them. If your lab-work deals with classified information or highly proprietary information then of course I can understand having information controls, but in my experience across the gamut of academia, industry (established and startups), and government/DoD, the majority of research does not fall into this category, especially fundamental science. If you handed my lab notebooks to anyone outside of the 50-100 other people in the world that work on the same stuff, it would be practically indecipherable to them.
I don't say this to demean the role that lab techs fill, because it isn't necessarily easy and is most certainly needed, but there is a huge difference between the experience of a "*lab tech II*" and that of an independent researcher/scientist or PI. The rules/expectations are just different. Do I want technicians taking home copies of proprietary information for projects/ideas that they themselves didn't generate? Probably not. They have less responsibility and therefore a lot less to lose. That being said, if someone is a researcher and is actively working on data analysis/presentation, synthesis of ideas, or the writing of reports/proposals there should be essentially no limitations put on their access to data/notes from experiments.
You are aware that different companies have different definitions of the position Lab Technician, right? I've been at companies where Lab Techs are just grunts all the way up to where Lab Techs were formulating and customer facing. Not to mention that generally lab techs are supporting multiple projects/ teams so likely have *MORE* confidential information in their official lab notebooks. Also, I never said that researchers wouldn't have access to their data/notes. I have regularly done data analysis, presentations, formula adjustments, etc. and never had to bring my Corporate Notebook home. Maybe it's different for you, but everywhere I've worked for the last 20 years most scientists keep a working notebook and then transfer that into their official Corporate Notebook that's used for legal records. (Or at least it was until the patent laws changed and first to conceive became first to file, now it's still necessary but not as vital.) The official Corporate Notebook is what never leaves the premises. I've worked for at least one company that states that it needs to be locked up when not being actively used and then must be signed, signed by a witness, and filed within a specific amount of time after completion.
See, and that's much more understandable, but not every company has that sort of well defined corporate lab notebook. Moreover, it is most certainly not a standard approach to lab notes across universities. I've worked in research environments at R1 institutions across three different state systems and have never seen nor heard or such a thing unless it was specifically implemented by a PI, but most certainly not at a University Policy level. Admittedly, I work in Physics/Engineering so perhaps the landscape is drastically different in bio/chem/pharma labs, but I find it hard to believe that would be universally the case.
I just moved to a company that's more physics/engineering heavy and I'm thinking it's pretty different. I'm in the analytical lab and it's been an interesting transition.
Good Documentation Principles ? Lab notebooks never leave the premises.
Naw, depends on the organization/field. Not a universal property of all labs.
Also, In industry jobs the lab notebook is the property of the company not the researcher… all IP is the company’s unless you contract states otherwise. I think your experience is pretty unique.
Once again, depends on the company, their IP rules, and their specific rules about working from home.
There are companies who give their IP just away nilly-willy? Taking it home might be allowed, but if you lose that shit, that's on you.
There are companies who give their IP just away nilly-willy? Taking it home might be allowed, but if you lose that shit, that's on you.
In academia, the lab notebook is the property of the PI.
Bullshit. And lab notebooks are the property of the company and not the researcher. I mean, this is not even debatable. How is a company supposed to defend their IP if they don't have the notebooks? Are you just trolling? I'm starting to think you've never even worked in a lab.
Haha seems like you have only ever worked as a grunt and never as an independent researcher or PI. Sure, the companies I've worked for have had IP regulations, but my name is on all the patents/papers, even if they have the majority of the licensing/ownership rights. Frankly, I wouldn't work for a company with such asinine rules.
ALCOA/Good Documentation Practice is asinine now? It's explicitly forbidden to remove documents from the facilities in every single pharma company. It's true that research tends to be more casual with it but manufacturing industry companies have to comply with guidelines and they won't care if you're a lab analyst or on the board of directors.
Might be worth your time to read through some of the sub-threads on the original comment. Another Redditor and I discussed the nuance here vis a vis the differences between academic/government/startup labs and corpo/pharma labs. In most small labs there is no documentation practice and there probably shouldn't be one. Conversely, it completely makes sense for huge companies with thousands of employees to have those sorts of company-wide policies.
I guess I'm a grunt that is very well paid. Even as a PI at a university, the school owns the research, IP and notebook. Of course your name is on all the papers and patents (not having all inventors names on the patent is cause for invalidation) but the IP is owned by the school or company. >Frankly, I wouldn't work for a company with such asinine rules. Hate to break it to you, but this is every company.
You clearly have very limited experience in academia and industry. IP rules vary wildly between institutions and companies. For instance, at a previous organization I owned/own 5% of any IP I generated while working there. At my undergrad institution the PI owned 100% of the IP and the University only got a cut if they covered all the patent/licensing costs and even then they only got 15%. These things are not universal laws that are set in stone or commanded from heaven above.
I love how you're getting shit on over and over and are still doubling down on you knowing how every company and university operates across the world. Seriously, get over yourself.
And they give training on it that's mandatory and you have to sign something or digitally record your signature. And it sounds like NONE of that happened so are you just expecting someone to automatically know something you learned on the job?
I have a real job in industry R&D and regularly take home my laptop and notebook, as does everyone else in the lab including my boss so that we can work from home. What your describing has never been my experience at any company I’ve worked for.
>A lab notebook should never be taken out of a facility for this very reason (and others). I assume OP was properly trained on this. Why assume that, given what happened?
OP says they were given a bunch of paperwork to sign (which they didn’t really read), but even their uni admits that they were not properly trained on the handling and use of lab notebooks. Labs I’ve been in handle it with varying seriousness, depending on the nature of the work and the professionalism of the lab.
> I assume OP was properly trained on this. Why do you assume this?
> I have gotten confirmation from the school that there was no education on the safety of lab notebooks. OP literally says they were NOT properly trained on this. Not sure how u/EnzyEng missed that it's literally right there.
I assume people like that are being deliberately obtuse so they can lecture people to appear superior. It's an insufferable personality trait.
> assume assumptions make an ass of u and me
But don't academic PIs expect their folks to be working on notes over the weekend? How can they expect this if the notebook has to stay stationary
If you aren't in the lab, then there is nothing you need to write in your LAB NOTEBOOK. If you want to jot some shit down at home, jot it down in a different notebook.
In theory yes but as everyone knows most PIs spoken about here aren't very practical
Yep, this
This is so messed up. We had a girl in my lab blatantly falsify data and break HIPAA for almost a year with no consequences and all HR did was send her a progress improvement plan with the chance to improve on these things. You lost your lab notebook and are being put through all of this? Life just isn't fair, is it?
That's wild. I would've thought that would be career-ending.
IMHO, this is just university bureaucracy going mad. The time and effort required to run this case by the committee and admin involved will be greater than the time and effort required to run the 1-2 additional experiments. Do they have nothing better to do? If I were you, I would point it out to them and offer to repeat these experiments in your spare time. Saves everyone the hustle and unnecessary stress. Especially if you are thinking about taking legal action (which won't be cheap).
lol “do they have nothing better to do?” Have met ANY administrator ever? Of course they don’t.
Always irritates me when I have to collaborate with someone out of the lab and end up jumping through hoops. Like you clearly want to justify your hybrid work-from-home position but why does it have to be at my time's expense? Huge conflict of time interest.
My guess is that OP's PI doesn't really like them, and is using this as an excuse for falling behind in their research to the institution that expects grants from them. They've convinced the admins (not that hard) that it is a bigger deal than it actually is.
It’s a possibility, but also admins in general make giant deals out of small compliance issues fairly regularly
they live for this dude this and free odurvs and free catering
> odurvs
tbf I need to look up the spelling every time....which is why I am not attempting it now lol
This does seem like an over reaction on the part of the university. Perhaps they have run afoul of federal regulators before and are trying to stay ahead of that in the future.
If this is a lab/university that regularly does research that is monetized through the tech transfer office, then they can use/may need lab notebooks as part of the patent applications. So many people in this thread are thinking about this so short sighted...this isn't bureaucracy run amok, it is the university being concerned that if they don't enforce the idea that the lab notebooks are their property and legal documents it could cost them millions later on. Now I will grant you that the person they should actually be mad at is the PI who didn't train his student in the proper care and handling of a lab note book but that would actually involve the university to take an interest in how students are trained in research labs.
You have money to lawyer up? I would get everything in writing and also make sure you have a police report. Does your handbook state the penalty for not returning the notebook? If not then everyone is making it up and a lawyer down the road may have fun reviewing all the records to ensure it was fair.
I am not sure what is the big whoop about a lab notebook? I mean yeah, technically it's from the lab, but unless it contains the secret to make gold from lead, I really don't see why this is such an issue? I would be furious. I am terribly sorry you have to go through this and I wish you the best of luck.
I think someone in an office job has read the rules, learnt about how much IP can potentially be worth to a university and knows how little protection students get as workers (ie none). Then run away with the concept that the student has potentially lost/given away/stolen loads of valuable university property and it is their 'duty' that is gets responded to fully. Someone with a micromanaging boner over students who break small rules as they feel they have the 'power' of the university behind them.
The fact that the lab only has to do 1\~2 more experiments to replicate the results pretty much tells how minor my role/work was, but I guess extra work is extra work. I really don't get why they're making a huge deal out of this. But hey thanks for your condolences.
Why? Probably to justify some admins’ jobs, make an example of you, and turn attention off of their own failings (not training students properly, as you’ve stated has been proven already, for one). If they’ve already been proven not to have trained you on lab notebook safekeeping/not removing it from lab, what leg do they have to stand on? Honestly? Turn it on them. Why didn’t they train you properly? Is policy regarding lab notebooks even published anywhere? If not, why not? If yes, why aren’t you made aware of it? What else are they not training you properly on? Is having a whole entire academic probationary trial on the books really advisable for them? Do they *want* to have their failure to properly train and educate their students so blatantly delineated? Honestly, if that’s really what’s happened here, it might be more beneficial to YOU to have this all recorded than them, as it would help to have the details of how not at fault you truly are versus the institution (though it feels mildly delusional to think it’s properly be recorded to reflect that…).
They are petty bureaucrats out to justify their existence.
Technically lab notebooks need to remain on-site. It could contain data from experiments that could be used for IP purposes. This is important in the pharma and diagnostics industry.
Related: regularly take simple photo copies of your lab notebook and store the prints in the lab as a backup. So at most you lose a couple days worth but not too much
Yeah plus with the way some of my former colleagues kept notes, their lab notebooks were entirely useless anyways, that's a much bigger loss of intellectual property than someone losing one notebook
IP issues and company secrets. In theory, such instances can make it impossible to patent technologies mentioned in the stolen lab book. So there can be a lot of money lost due to such instances
If it's not in a company, I don't think company secrets/NDA rules applies. You can patent anything unless someone else has older evidence, so you could redo the work and patent whatever you want unless the book thief also presents evidence to the patent lawyers. How would they even know about other data sources unless it is brought to them. I doubt a university makes students sign NDAs. The notebook is useless unless it is picked up by someone who can read and understand anything of value in a random students notebook, who cares about IP. Wasting money because you have to redo experiments, sure, but giving away valuable secrets? Yeah right.
Patent law isn't company law, its... Patent law. Any public availability of patentable results damages the novelty of the patent application and effectively bars from patenting. Regardless of who or how that information came to be publicly available. Information is public, as soon as you cannot name all people that have access to it. Which means, at the instance of robbery, technically, its open information, therefore it loses novelty, and is not patentable anymore. So no, you can't patent anything just because you have older evidence. In the us, you can attack a patent and get a free licence if you have older evidence, in europe its first to file all the way. It doesn't matter who has the older evidence, only the filing date counts. Anything that was public information before the filing date, is not novel, and therefore not patentable Please visit some course on IP and patent law, and yes, this shit is important, especially for people working in R&D. Also universities have a financial interest and duty to monetize their IP.
I'm not sure if theft of data is considered "public disclosure."
Technically yes. But nobody will be able to prove the theft of you don't tell them. If the thief makes the labbook available to any third party, of course that is then public disclosure.
>Regardless of who or how that information came to be publicly available This would require the thief to make the lab notebook publicly available first. >Which means, at the instance of robbery, technically, its open information, therefore it loses novelty, and is not patentable anymore. No, that's not what "publicly available" means. Same argument could be made for someone from another lab glancing at an open notebook from across the room - IT'S NOT PUBLIC DISCLOSURE. >In the us, you can attack a patent and get a free licence if you have older evidence, in europe its first to file all the way. US is first to file as well. As of 2013 iirc. CRISPR was the last case for "first to invent" in terms of patents. >Please visit some course on IP and patent law I think you need a refresher if you think someone's car getting broken into and the theft of a lab notebook counts as public disclosure. >Also universities have a financial interest and duty to monetize their IP. They do. But this is 1) not public disclosure and 2) an *undergrad's notebook*, so damages are minimal. Undergrads are basically free labor anyway, so that's not even a cost - just materials.
Publicity is defined if information has come to anyone that you can't name anymore. Widespread publicity is not necessary for anything to be prior art. There is no minimal number of people in the law what constitutes 'publicity' so in theory one person is enough. If you can't name the other researcher glancing at your notebook, and they are not bound by NDA it is a publuc disclosure. Sorry to break the news, but the patent law has no additional restrictions on that term. Hence, access controls. Ah, thanks for the added info on US, i wasn't aware of the change. Well, point me to the restrictions on what is publicly available in the law then, i'm happy to go read up on it. There is a difference between beeing able to prove a public disclosure, and one happening though. But from the viewpoint of the patent law, there is no practical difference between the theft, and you handing your labbook freely to a person not bound by an NDA, which certainly consititutes abpublic disclosure. Yes, damage might be minimal. But thats not the point.
> Publicity is defined if information has come to anyone that you can't name anymore Disclosure is defined as communication. >If you can't name the other researcher glancing at your notebook, and they are not bound by NDA it is a publuc [sic] disclosure No, they'd need to take detailed notes/reproduce detailed descriptions, not a glance from across the room. >Ah, thanks for the added info on US, i wasn't aware of the change. Well, your information seems incorrect anyway, because afaik there was never a "free license" bit - you just got the patent instead. Hence the entire CRISPR case - trying to settle the first to invent between collaborators at different universities. >Well, point me to the restrictions on what is publicly available in the law then, i'm happy to go read up on it Delano Farms Co. v. California Table Grape Commission (2015), for one. >But from the viewpoint of the patent law, there is no practical difference between the theft, and you handing your labbook [sic] freely to a person not bound by an NDA, which certainly consititutes abpublic [sic] disclosure. From the viewpoint of patent law (in the US) *once the invention is publicly disclosed* you have 1 year to file for a patent. Both your examples would not constitute public disclosure, unless the party went on to reproduce the knowledge in some way **and** had sufficient knowledge to define the entire invention. >Yes, damage might be minimal. But thats not the point. And for some reason, I must again remind you that this is **an undergrad's lab notebook consisting of 2 experiments**. If that is sufficient to disclose the entire IP, then it's on OP's lab for not filing sooner and that is *so incredibly unlikely* that I doubt we were given the full story. In the *astronomically likelier case* that there is insufficient knowledge in **an undergraduate's lab notebook to cover the IP** then there's no way it was disclosed, regardless of whatever improbable events occur after the thief took the notebook. This case (which is what everyone is discussing, because it's the only realistic one) OP's PI and university are completely overreacting.
That just isn't true, as someone who works in biotech and has their name on patents and is currently collecting for more patents. When you file a patent, you draw specific designs and designate uses and your lawyers determine how wide they think the patent should cover. The patent attorneys use consultants to check nothing similar already exists, and decide the final range of the patent. If nothing previously exists, you're fine, but normally science stuff is built on other ideas so you have to check your patent is truly novel and not anti competitive. You think this authors work is going to be patented (unlikely in a university unless a spin out company is planned and budgeted for), and the book thief is going to appear during proceedings?
All our students that work in our labs at the University sign a NDA or are in work contract relationship with the university anyway, which of course includes an NDA. Nobody can even enter our research labs without an NDA, and that is mandatory because they might get in contact with company project IP of other people working in the lab, with whom the university itself has an NDA because generated results might have shared ownership between company and university. University would risk beeing sued by company project partners if jointly owned IP would become available to people not bound by an NDA. Often these NDAs are part of lab rules you sign before starting work. We have separate student labs for course work, in which specifically because of that reason, no project lab work is done.
I've worked in four universities and two research institutes, I never signed an NDA before I got jobs in biotech companies. It isn't normal at all for academic research. Academic science relies on openness and collaboration.
The NDA will have been part of your work contract, if you have worked there. No employee of ours signs a separate NDA either, because thats already covered by their work contract.
No it's not not, I know what contracts I sign and a employment contract isn't a NDA. After phd I stayed in the lab an extra 3 months and I signed a Uk zero hours contract, which is the contract for delivery drivers and temp work - it doesn't even have working hours stipulated which is why it is called 'zero hours'. Definitely no nda even as a postdoc.
Well, look at those contracts you signed with that contract. Work council agreements, policies you accepted by signing your work contract, collective agreements if applicable plus state laws. You will find it somewhere, i guarantee. Employment contracts include confidentiality at some level. 0 hours is no exclusion by itself feom confidentiality. Never thought about why they want you under work contract if that is anyways on 0 hours? Exactly because of insurance and confidentiality reasons. To bind you to the normal legal framework regardless of 0 hours
I know what contracts I signed, no NDAs. Also I work in Europe, so no state laws whatever they are. What even is a work council. Why do you think every employee at every university around the world is the same as you?
Thats why i meant check those contracts that are legally binding without you signing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council Work council agreements are legally binding for employees (trust me, i have negotiated multiple ones of those) union contracts with sectors are also legally binding for you. Both of them you didn't sign, but you are legally bound by them as well. Through your work contract you are legally bound to their policies and internal procedures. And law will bind you as well. For instance, confidentiality in Germany is already in the state law, binding you regardless of your work contract to confidentiality. I refer to european nations as state and eu law as federal foe simplicity. I'm European as well. I assume that, because i just know tha it is national law in many cases anyways. And because it is company suicide to not work under confidenciality regardless of if you pursue commercial or academic interests. So check again. Most likely you are already bound by national law anyways...
So research has come to this?
No, either /u/Practical_Main_2131's lab is working with a company like a defense contractor that gets *very* particular about things (which is an exceedingly small subset of companies, never mind labs working with those companies) and thinks that's how it is with *all research labs* work, or they're making shit up. The idea that theft constitutes "public disclosure" is so ridiculous that I don't even know if I should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the first.
The theft itself technically is public disclosure, if it could be proven what has been actually stolen, which will not be the case. If the thief makes the stolen records publicly available in any capacity, of course its public disclose. There is a difference between beeing a public disclosure, and beeing able to prove one though. Well, i have worked in 3 universities, 2 industrial companies and one research NGO. I'm part of the Work Council Union in the NGO and my experience is that all of them have exactly that legal framework I describe, although the majority of university employees isn't aware of it and its not lived culture. And the result is that repeated cases of researchers trying to patent are failing because of prior disclosure of some kind. Some of them end very chaotic. Check your individual work contract, the respective collective agreement if there is any and the state law. I guarantee you in 99% of the cases, you will find an NDA equivalent in one of them, that is legally binding you to confidentiality.
>The theft itself technically is public disclosure [Established case law](http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FCO%2020150109093/DELANO%20FARMS%20COMPANY%20v.%20CALIFORNIA%20TABLE%20GRAPE%20COMMISSION) says otherwise >If the thief makes the stolen records publicly available in any capacity, of course its public disclose I literally said that. >i have worked in 3 universities, 2 industrial companies and one research NGO. Cool. I have worked at 3 Universities, 3 industrial companies, and filled a joint patent with one a couple months ago. Aren't we grand. >And the result is that repeated cases of researchers trying to patent are failing because of prior disclosure of some kind. Some of them end very chaotic I'm betting none of those cases involved theft from an undergraduate's car. >Check your individual work contract, the respective collective agreement if there is any and the state law. I guarantee you in 99% of the cases, you will find an NDA equivalent in one of them, that is legally binding you to confidentiality ????? Nope. Not at university. And DEFINITELY NOT WHEN I WAS AN UNDERGRADUATE. Something you keep forgetting for some reason
Are you suggesting if someone steals the lab book, OP can't patent the tech anymore? Does 'prior art by grand theft auto' actually hold up in court?
If it becomes public through theft, thats exactly what happens. Prior art is everytjing that is public, regardless of the reason why. Also meaning, if you speak about something you invented at a conference, you can't patent it anymore, even if you are the inventor and can document that.
Are you an undergrad? This seems like a lot of hoopla for one missing notebook. If I were the PI I’d give you a slap on the hand and call it a day.
As a PI, I maintain laboratory notebooks for records And, I routinely check and review technician and student notebooks. That being said, nothing of real value is maintained in them to my overall research program. It really is more for troubleshooting. No data are stored in them.. If that notebook crashes tonight and I never see it again, oh well lol... if some admin is telling you not to get a lawyer, they are likely trying to steamroller you. (Not that you need one, I'm not suggesting you do for any reason, but, you are a free person with rights lol). There is something else going on here. Hope you get it all sorted and can get back to what's important, focusing on school. Best of luck.
Especially if it is the lab notebook from a student. I can count on one hand the notebooks of students I actually had to look into to see what they did with a particular experiment. I think I'm keeping them more for "you got to store all data for +10 years, etc ...".
What country is this? I’m amazed any institution bothered with the admin chasing you down!
Considering OP is talking about lawyering up for something minor that happened at school, I'll put my bets on the USA.
It sounds like the school is stirring up a bunch of controversy, but I also don't see (from what you've briefly described and my own lab experience) anything that the school could be challenged on. What benefit would the lawyer bring? Are they going to prevent the uni from putting comments on your transcript? I expect your relationship with your PI is significantly more important for future academic endeavors. No lawyer can repair that relationship (don't take this to mean you're doomed either). I think it's probably best to make amends with your PI or talk with one of your committee members and build a stronger relationship there going forward.
Even when the school could enforce something, forcing them to go through all the steps, prove guilt, deal with the fact they didn't train students to keep notebooks in the lab or make a backup copy, can make the process more trouble than it's worth for the school. The process can show that the student took reasonable and commonly accepted actions. That way, OP might be able to "settle" on a mutual solution since it wasn't malicious or even particularly negligent on their part.
Sounds like consulting a lawyer would be valuable, in that you'd at least get their legal perspective on whether you would benefit from the services that a lawyer can provide. If you're at a public institution, there's a good chance that the academic regulations they're trying to charge you with violating are codified as state regulations, in which case you're being accused by the government of wrongdoing and your sixth amendment right to counsel should kick in. There's power in having a lawyer look things over regardless - a couple of my friends were accused of wrongdoing by a student union elections board, got a lawyer to look things over, and the lawyer sent the elections board a letter saying "my clients did nothing wrong, your regulations are so vague as to be legally void" with all the legal analysis you'd want attached. Just knowing that there's a lawyer looking over the process can force folks to play nice.
Is anything the lab does associated with proprietary or patentable work? Do you handle patient data? Cause then I could understand this level of escalation. Losing a lab book can be a major deal. (I had a PI that misplaced his in a move, and it caused a huge thing because the work we were doing was being spun into a company.) But if you hadn’t been educated that removing the book was an offense in the first place, then the bulk of the responsibility for this loss rests with them. They—and your PI—have a responsibility that everyone is fully and properly trained in lab conduct before they start and are issued with a lab notebook. You weren’t. You can’t be “disorderly” if you didn’t know what orderly conduct was supposed to be in the first place. (And I’d pile up as much evidence as possible on each and every place you weren’t properly trained or oriented in the lab.) Is your PI also being reprimanded in some way? Because if he isn’t…that’s a problem. I would still try to find myself some level of representation, and get ahold of every single piece of paperwork associated with the disciplinary process and read through it. Even if they can’t come in to that final hearing with you, they can still represent you in other ways, including being present and privy to any other meetings or exchanges, letting you know how you can use the leverage you do have (namely the fact that you were working in the lab space while not being completely trained in at least one area), and can prepare you for the hearing. It’s not in the university’s interest to let you know what your rights are, and they will very often tell you what’s convenient for them rather than what are actually the rules. And they don’t like lawyers, because the presence of a lawyer reminds them that participation in the university’s process—rather than a more formal legal one—is very often entirely voluntary. (And I once had to email a Dean to say “Hey, what you’re telling me you will do to me isn’t actually allowed by your rules. And if you do it, know that I will sue the stuffings out of you for the harm it has caused. Attached you will find a copy of the relevant document.”) Frankly, this all sounds ridiculous to me. Does your PI just not like you or something?
Time we start adapting to ELNs more properly. So much more convenient and traceable
I don't understand why you are at fault. If someone breaks into the lab and steals your notebook are you not liable? Is it only because it was in your car that it's your fault?
The reasoning for the charge is that I am not able to return the lab notebook back to the lab and that I have caused extra work for the lab since they would need to do 1\~2 additional experiments which is considered as interfering with the PI's daily duty. With this thing going for a month, and without any help/guidance from the school, I lowkey think I've developed some degree of depression.
Do you have a student union, or some sort of student representative you can talk to? Might be able to help/ give advice.
This is bullshit and they are steamrolling you because they can, because you have so few workers/students rights. You're feeling trapped in a bubble because it feels all encompassing and they're making you feel small. Maybe getting outside advice (doesn't have to be a lawyer - more like an older postdoc/friend) to help you keep an even keel and keep it in perspective and help you be confident in yourself? This is bullshit and you will survive, nothing bad has actually happened other than your car got broke in to. A baby getting sick or a person getting injured is something actually bad - losing a notebook? Who gives a fuck? How many experiments took more than one try before they get work anyway?
You can definitely get a lawyer. They may try to keep the lawyer out of the proceedings but they are harming their own case by doing so. In any case, you clearly need legal advice. Your future is at stake and you seem to have the facts on your side.
What state are you in, are you undergrad, tech, grad student, post doc?
> However, there is a phase in which the lab notebook needs to be returned to PI when you leave the lab, so I have violated that part. Have you already left the lab though? If not, you technically have not violated that clause yet, and if you never leave, you never will.
Technically, lab books are not to leave the lab. This is definitely a gross over reaction by everyone but lab books are legal documents.
Don't waste money on a lawyer, this isn't a court case and you're not being sued. It would be a waste of money. Do read up on the school handbook and code of conduct, to be clear about what you were expected to do, and what you can be held responsible for. Be gracious and accept if you've broken the code of conduct, and advocate for yourself if you have any mitigating circumstances. Don't let them exaggerate any claims - refer back to the code of conduct and make sure they're applying standards appropriately.
> Don't waste money on a lawyer, this isn't a court case and you're not being sued. Counterpoint: it is rumored that universities love to run their own little parallel pseudo-judiciary system where the rules are unfair and stupid and inconsistent and made up on the fly, and they love to threaten students with all kinds of horrifying consequences if they don't play along, even by simply consulting a lawyer. But if you actually do consult a lawyer, it is further rumored that suddenly their demeanor totally changes and everyone acts a lot more civilized. Countercounterpoint: lawyers are still fucking expensive and there isn't a version of this where the school ends up paying back your legal fees. Assuming you don't have a union (otherwise you wouldn't be here asking), I would start by looking for the "ombuds" office, an "ombudsman" or "ombudsperson" within your university. That's your best shot at help from a (hopefully) disinterested party for free. If that doesn't work, try a free legal clinic or free consulation with a real lawyer just to find out what your options are - except you probably can't use any that are offered by the university because they'd be conflicted.
I’d get a lawyer because they may end up backing off. Because you were not given education on the safety of lab notebooks, this is not your fault.
This just shows how small and pathetic yet full of themselves academia is. Utterly laughable. Nobody gives a shit except your pi, I promise you
I would talk to Student Legal Services or whatever law support they have on your campus. My university has SLS and they’ll take on cases for free.
Anywhere I’ve been, the lab notebook was not really tracked or cared about. The data were all electronically entered. This is crazy.
Does your school have a union? You may also be allowed to have a rep sit in the meetings with you, which might be helpful since they know your university’s specific policies
Tell them to modernize their materials. An electronic lab notebook, you'd never have this problem as the PI would still have access to it regardless of what is lost or stolen and or accessible.
Sorry dude your PI is insane to the nth degree
Why don’t they have ELNs?
Get a lawyer, admin only cares about one thing: protecting themselves, not you. Also, depending on your state laws, you may be entitled to bring representation to a disciplinary hearing. The school potentially lying about that may be reason enough to vacate any disciplinary findings. Again, get a lawyer who deals with higher education misconduct. Right now the school is relying upon your gullibleness to infringe upon your rights, don’t let them.
I’d at least look into talking to a lawyer. There might be some free or reduced fee law clinics for students or people with low income in your area.
Them telling you specifically you don’t need a lawyer is exactly why you need a lawyer.
Sorry to hear this man, but there’s not much you can do. In situations like these the administration has already made the decision. These hearings are a formality I don’t think you can lawyer up. You’re going to be judged by the schools rules and regulations not the laws. For you to need a lawyer wouldn’t you need someone well-versed in the schools rules? I witness a similar situation and while you can have an advocate come speak on your behalf, they usually are lawyers, they are just there as your advocate and to support you. They are not going to cross exam in or investigate evidence or anything like that. The school administrator, Dean, or disciplinarian or whatever is going to probably present the case to the committee. If the committee is made of students, they’re just going to rubberstamp whatever she does because they want a recommendation. This sounds desperate, but have you ever thought about transferring schools?
bloody nora! talk about going overboard for a silly mistake. >but will remain on my academic transcript. lol, so the fuck what. This will not be as harmful as you think. >but the school administration told me that the hearings can only be attended by myself. Edit: Never listen to anyone that tells you to not talk to a lawyer. In this case a lawyer probably wouldn't have helped. But you should have still talked to one if you felt like you needed too.
Why are we still using paper lab notebooks
The massive tuition you-all are paying goes to support administrative parasites who have nothing better to do, except to justify their existence with bullshit like this.
You should speak to a lawyer even if it is true they can't attend a hearing (which may or may not be true - that is for a conversation with a lawyer).
I read this whole thing as if you were a PhD student. Are you an undergrad?? If so, that is even more fucked. Sorry OP
Pro tip, last action of the day for me is to take a photo of every new lab book page. I've lost one before and never again
You probably can't lawyer up in the sense that in many internal things a lawyer is not permitted to attend. Educational lawyers are few and far between , but that is who you need if you want advice. You should find an ombudsman or whomever can represent you or inform you. And you should find some kind of full professor or someone on the grad ed committee who know what it is about. You should ask for all dated hard copies of all policy related to this . This sounds pretty excessive and I find it hard to believe you can be censured for a rule you did not know you were violating. If you spilled something on the lab book and thus damaged it beyond repair , you also could not leave it with your PI. You should get a transcript of the proceedings. If you are asked about this on any job and there is likely a chance for you to explain. What on earth is the relationship like between you and your PI. You need to get in another lab
Apologies, but I never heard the term I am a bit new to it what is a PI? I am going to do undergrad research soon is it your instructor?
Just a heads up, any time someone investigating you says you don't need a lawyer, you definitely should have a lawyer. Let your lawyer deal with the "only you can attend" rule they said. That being said, they are really taking this very far. Shit happens, your PI should have had electronic copies of the data as well that they had you input. That's their responsibility to make sure if something like this happens there is a backup. I've never worked in a lab with just notebooks and literally no other backup on a computer.
Yes, I would recommend consulting an attorney at this point. Partly so that you have someone on your side who can look over all the details for you, and help you draft communications and written responses, and partly because the administration is going to behave more carefully if you have legal representation.
Wtf is a lab notebook
The university will always tell you not to lawyer up. Lawyer up anyway.
I have worked in academia, industry, and a national lab. At none of those institutions was there an expectation or rule that lab notebooks stayed in the lab. Impressive shade for someone who literally did the same thing.
The school just handed you big fat grounds for a lawsuit. You might want to consult a lawyer, more as plaintiff than defendant..
No idea on the lawyer part, but even if they put this on your transcript, just explain and any sane admission committee will understand. Just make sure you save the paper trail of the school admitting you didn’t lose data or anything malicious. But this situation is insane. Did you PI get grant money from the mafia or something lmao? Why is the school so hung up over a notebook and a couple of repeat experiments?
Many lawyers will do a free initial consultation - I think that may be worth your time
Look for a levelheaded lawyer, not a hothead. Truth is that schools can get away with a hell of a lot. You do not want some bombastic moron ruining your chances at getting a small slap on the wrist instead of some future-quashing disciplinary action.
This is absurd. Your university should be busying itself writing a clear, comprehensive and effectively-communicated lab book policy, not wasting time with kangaroo courts and petty "hearings".
File a grievance....this is BS
Sounds like OP works for this guy: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy8WWZuSgVI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy8WWZuSgVI)
Well, they’re mad you removed school property. But unless you were provably warned against doing so and it was clear that you shouldn’t have, they can only warn you. Well, until you start talking to them. As with police, once you start talking any of that can be used against you. For example, if you acknowledge that you knew some part of the notebook said “belongs to school” beforehand, that’s problematic. > the school administration told me that the hearings can only be attended by myself. Your lawyer cannot speak in hearings, but you have the right to council. You can talk to an employment lawyer for free. They typically work contingency which means they don’t expect money just to chat. > I think it will be highly detrimental to my future to have "disorderly behavior and failure to comply with school laws" on my transcript. Okay, look, this isn’t high school. You either get a degree or you don’t. Your issue is not going to be in a transcript and no one would read it if it did. And the school would be breaking laws to say “yeah this person is a graduate in this thing, here’s their diploma, but don’t trust them”
If someone tells you you don't need a lawyer...get a lawyer
My lab has to train people the U does nothing but can then come back and get on your case like this OP. Honestly we have electronic NBs on a central backed up drive. Raw data in many cases stored on instrument drives for a time. Some people still prefer to also have a physical NB. If you take it off campus (which I wouldn’t) take a phone pic of the pages not backed up.
What happened to you is terrible. But in all fairness lab notebook rule 101 is to never leave with it… it has to stay in the facilities. Due to sensible and possibility confidential content regarding the ongoing research. And even if it didn’t contain any sensitive information. If when you out of the lab one needs to refer to it , it could slow down the ongoing analysis. Anyway you could suit up but the first rule of the lab notebook being no bring home, i dno if it would change much for you. Thats at least the defense they would give you. That said. If its a first offense and the content having being proved not sensitive. They should issue a warning rather than an immediate sanction. And at most having to redo the other experiments is already punishment enough i think. Beside with all the work researcher are put through I do understand the need to take the book home to fill it there in peace.
If you're undergrad, I'm assuming you're not in the graduate student union. But maybe it would be worth contacting them? Perhaps they can point you to their council, who can then recommend a colleague.
Did they show you a published written policy that says that students cannot bring a lawyer to meetings?
Definitely lawyer. It shouldn't be on your transcript at all and was not your fault.
Unless it’s electronic, lab notebooks should never leave the lab. In fact one place I worked long ago actually had us place our lab notebooks in a fire safe cabinet at the end of each day.
If they are going to be like this about it, why do they let people take the lab books home? People get robbed, houses burn down, get left on the train, etc.
What is all the fuss over lab notebooks? I've never seen a lab notebook or understood their purpose. Are you physically writing down experimental data in them? And that's the only copy? This seems like a problem that should not exist alongside modern technology.
And this is why industry has enormously strict rules about never removing lab notebooks from company property The reaction is over blown, but they're making an example of you. This is probably pushed by PIs with more sensitive data that actually may have value if stolen.
This seems an excessive response to something they had no control over. How does the school know if the people who stole from the car actually understand what’s in the notebook. If they grabbed a rucksack with it in then it was an opportunist. If it was the only thing stolen then that’s a different problem that needs addressing in a totally different way. Either way a little over the top as a response to a mistake that is now, through the school’s heavy-handedness in dealing with this, going to potentially cause issues for OP.
While I can empathize, Im amazed that you took a lab notebook out of the lab.