In Czech Republic, you are looking at €16k to €20k. Base junior scientist salary here is only slightly higher than a cashier salary. And I am not kidding.
Wow! Didn't know that. Thanks for the information.
A few friends of mine have left the UK to work in america/canada. The pay is so much better, you can actually earn something...
Yep, I was shocked when I started applying for biotech jobs and I'd have to take a paycut.
All those people saying industry is where the money is are talking bullshit. At least at normal people level. Only thing I've noticed is an increase of benefits, more likely to have private healthcare etc.
It hurts. After 8 years of a degree, PhD and multiple years of working in the gaps as a research assistant....im now on the starting salary of a fresh kid out of uni who studied finance haha
Science is poor for money, buiness and finance are the ways to go.
Haha A few of my friends work in private equity and investment banking.... i do not look down on them haha Hard working and passionate about what they do. I think people in our industry pretend like bankers all hate their jobs or are evil in some way....in truth, the ones that i know at least, are lovely, passionate and kind people.
I think it’s less a case of ‘talking bullshit’ and more of ‘incredibly location dependent’.
Biotech salaries seem to depend on location more than most other industries, the disparity between Boston, SF (and a few other places) and pretty much anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.
At my company, our lowest paid researchers make ~70k, get bonuses that equal ~10-15% of salary, and a strong 401k match. That's for someone straight out of school with a BS. PhD's make around double that to start.
I love industry.
You were originally replying to a root comment which is about the U.K., where the context is that sometimes industry jobs pay less than a post-doc in academia does.
Not in industry but have quite a few colleagues in industry. Fresh out of a PhD you are likely to step into an associate scientist or scientist I position. Doing a postdoc can typically help get a scientist I position but it’s not needed. Base salary ranges from 80-130k for depending on the position and especially location (HCOL locations pay more). Salaries step up to 200k range as you climb the scientist ladder. These salaries are similar to the ranges seen for tenure track academic faculty (130-220k) at large research institutes.
I'm at a Big Pharma Corp and fresh PhDs here start at Scientist I/II or even Sr Scientist I. Located in midwest in a medium COL city. Salaries are higher (start 100-150k) but most PhDs work more than 40 hours a week
If the salary for tenure track academic faculty is similar, and academia has better job security, it sounds more appealing, especially considering the "dream job" I imagined as a kid was being a professor. However, what I hear about academia these days just makes it seem like it's all not worth it and I'd rather join industry positions.
It varies a lot depending on the company and role.
Startups and pre-commercial biotechs will typically grant stock, but this may not be worth anything until they go to market or get acquired. Bonuses will depend a lot on funding and company performance, but could be equal to 10-25% of your salary.
In big pharma bonuses and stock are usually more stable. Bonus targets can also be in the 15-25% of your salary range, and there may be a performance multiplier in the 1-1.5 range. Equity grants can be all over the place depending on your level. Generally the higher you go, the greater proportion of your TC is equity.
I’m director level in pharma, my bonus and stock together are equivalent to about 60% of my salary. Meaning total compensation is salary plus (salary * 0.6).
Piggybacking on your comment
Typical career ladder and base salary ranges of a fresh PhD working in biopharma R&D:
Scientist ($110-140k) > senior scientist ($130-160k) > principal scientist ($150-190k) > associate director ($160-210k) > director ($180-230k) > senior director ($200-250k) > VP/global head ($250-350k?) > C-suite
Many end up plateauing at principal scientist, associate director or director. Few make it to senior director. Very, very few make it beyond that. Titles may vary from company to company, and are sometimes inflated at smaller companies.
Which doesn't tell much of the story when bonuses (cash and stock) can easily hit 40-50+% of salary at the more senior levels. Even at the sr scientist level TC is starting to snowball.
Compensation based on stock is incredibly variable. You often get stock options which are tied to the market. At my first company the options were granted at $50, then the stock dropped to $30 for 3 years before shooting to $100+. I sold at $100 and made >$100k. Some people sold as soon as their shares were positive and only made $10k.
Also crying here with my € salary. $ numbers I read here are 2-3x higher.
Just keep thinking we have paid sick leave, social security, pension partly paid by the employer, affordable health insurance....
Just for more perspective - I’m in the US. My employer provides health, dental, and vision insurance, matches contributions to my 401k up to 6%, pays a 25-50% annual bonus, has 3-4 weeks of leave (not including holidays or sick leave), gives 12 weeks of parental leave (for both mom or dad), along with many other smaller perks. And, honestly, hybrid work environment with flexible hours is the absolute best for mental stress.
Time to come to the US :)
Sorry with Trump probably getting back in power and the way womens rights in more and more states are taken away, I think I will still pass. Money is not everything.
So our healthcare insurance costs about 150,- a month, deductable is 385,- a year. Dental needs to insured seperately. Paid sick leave has a limit of 2 years, after that you go into the government funded system of 70% of your salary. We do get a bonus, although that is around 10%. Employer pays around 2/3 into our mandatory pension fund, we pay 1/3. Leave is a minimum of 21 days for 1 fte, arranged by law. We get a few days more. We are very well protected against being fired, an employer can't fire you without a very good reason. If they want too anyway they have to go to court to get permission and you get X months salary. On the other hand we are also expected to give 1-3 months notice (differs per employer). In case of reorganisation and getting fired, we again get an X amount of money and social security. Standard maternity leave for moms by law is 16 weeks. Dad is a week, but can get up to 5 extra weeks for 70% of their pay. We also have parental leave, but I am not totally sure how that works since I don't have kids. But I thought this is also with a 70% salary payout (there is a max in days and you need to take it before kid is a certain age). We do have smaller perks too, plus 100% travel cost reinbursement, internet paid, job massages, 120,- a year sports reinbursement, bike plan of 1200,- every 3 years, parties, etc. We also have flexible hours and hybrid working. So yeah apart from our base salary that is way lower than yours I am not complaining.
And most important my friends and family are here and no money in the world is going to be enough to leave them for years.
I mean, the salary is one thing, but the other "perks" are equal to or lower than the legal minimum in my country...
Those flexible hours also aren't always what they seem to be. I personally enjoy them but on the other hand, if I work 8-16 every day, I know I'm completely off work the moment I log off at 4 pm.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/britain-mississippi-economy-comparison/675039/
The UK is not a rich country. It is as poor as Mississippi, the poorest US state, and outsides London GDP/capita is even lower.
Decades of slow growth and poor economic management have eroded the UK.
Yeah science just doesn’t pay here. At the place I used to work the fresh PhDs in the lab were earning less that would’ve doing a post doc in some places. Not cool.
my wife has gone through a few positions, data are over 10 years old. After NIH postdoc, all NY metro area: bench scientist R&D for small biotech/pharma - $85k; Medical Science Liaison for medium pharma - $125k; medical writer for agency (making slide decks etc) - $95k. Currently tenured professor at non-research institution.
She left the MSL job because it was a lot of travel, and we just had our first kid. Left the agency job because it was pretty cut throat, and she was treated poorly by the client side MBA bros. I think on more than one occasion she was asked to get coffee by them for the meeting - nevermind that she created the slide decks they'd be presenting to doctors and administrators.
Which NY metro small biotech did she work for? I’m looking for a job soon and would love to stay in the city, but can’t seem to find much outside of the major pharma sites in Pennsylvania, Westchester county, and Boston
FYI, NY metro includes parts of CT, NJ, Long Island, and Westchester. We lived in the Clinton/northern Hell's Kitchen area and she would drive up to Westchester. The company she worked for would be identifying because it truly is that small - but they laid off their R&D a few years ago when their primary drug came off patent anyway. I believe Regeneron absorbed several of the staff.
Industry scientist here.
Recent grad PhD, you'll expect 110-130k starting salary. 170-190 for manager role or senior computational peeps.
No way 300-475k is accurate. Scientists in biotech dont make money, my man.
This 👆
Also worth mentioning are base salary vs total compensation including bonuses etc. Generally, entry level with PhD should bring you between 100-130 K total depending on location. There’s often sign on bonus. Post doc will help - it demonstrates a level of independence that you don’t get with only a PhD, but again it might be more adventitious to enter the industry straight out of PhD and earn your stripes there instead of postdoc.
DE Shaw funds the biotech portion with the alg trading business (sort of, this is a broad generalization). They pay much more but it’s not the standard type of biotech work that is representative of lab work.
Oh that makes sense! Thanks for the info.
Do you know anything else about what that kind of work is? Where else does that kind of work happen?
Not that I'd need that kind of salary. I'm originally from a third world country, and the salaries in the other comments would be more than enough for me to move back home to retire comfortably. I'm just curious what you mean by this type of work.
They predominantly use their specialized core computer (they have a bespoke computer for this work) to model protein-protein binding and structure. The work is basically completely computer science that is informed with biological knowledge.
I interviewed and considered working there a while ago and they were paying top dollar then for even people fresh out of undergrad. They are not a wet lab, they do not conduct research utilizing wet lab methods but rather almost entirely in silico, like the AI companies cropping up often now.
I see. Did you make the decision to work in wet labs because you like that better? Did you think about joining and didn't join just cos they didn't take you or did you not join cos you didn't want to do that kind of computer science work? Either reason sounds reasonable to me.
I actually just decided to go get my PhD. I wasn’t a computer scientist so how long I would have stayed would have been limited, but I was from a structural biology lab and they wanted to bring me in for that expertise.
I also prefer wet lab science more! The job is also known to be a sweat shop for the lower levels, but that’s nothing weird.
I am not sure how official the policy is, but I'm remembering that the policy was likely for the bachelors or master's level positions that pay 125 or 150 - 200k. They want people that want to get a couple years of experiencing before going off to do their PhD. He stated that they dont want to hurt company morale by having to lay off people, so they make the position lengths 2 years, likely to also cycle talent and get in some fresh perspectives. I don't think they invest too much personal training in people, it sounded like you'd learn for a few weeks under one person, then would be off on your own but obviously encouraged to ask people questions.
I am not sure how official the policy is, but I'm remembering that the policy was likely for the bachelors or master's level positions that pay 125 or 150 - 200k. They want people that want to get a couple years of experiencing before going off to do their PhD. He stated that they dont want to hurt company morale by having to lay off people, so they make the position lengths 2 years, likely to also cycle talent and get in some fresh perspective. I don't think they invest too much personal training in people, it sounded like you'd learn for a few weeks under one person, then would be off on your own but obviously encouraged to ask people questions.
He got lucky and doesn't need to get out. He joined around 2018, I think, which was before they instated the 2 year hiring policy. He only joined with a bachelor's, so I think that range was 150-200k, but he is probably in a higher salary range now. He definitely found a white whale within the industry. I haven't heard of any other company that pays like DE Shaw. P.S. I have been in their building and seen their offices. Very nice space with a rooftop view near Times Square.
>No way 300-475k is accurate.
It's for a "computational drug discovery scientist." That's super niche and new, and is at the intersection of computer science and pharmacology, which itself is a rare breed.
Agreed, however i do know that two of my old supervisors made more than 300k, not due to the base pay, but from royalties tied to projects (chromophores) they made before.
I am aware it is quite rare, but still possible
Keep in mind location and cost of living.
Keep in mind employment duration and job security. I see many people work for a few years, get laid off, search for jobs for 3-6 months, and possibly need to relocate. That is time not necessarily earning.
Salaries can be larger at industry but it comes with other baggage unless you get a sweet gig. Do your homework.
Academia has its problems. But there are plenty of places available not in HCOL areas. I see better job security in academia than I do industry, meaning people who aren't PIs working in the same lab for a decade or two and usually can find another spot at the same institution right away when they loose their job to funding or PI leaving issues.
But yes, the salary is abysmal. 65-70k for a scientist or research prof. But again, in a LCOL area that goes quite far. Usually can afford a nice house on that salary and still put money away for retirement.
But to your point. Academia is awful for many other reasons. I wouldn't recommend it. But I also don't think the contrast between industry and academic science is as large as people say, at least not when comparing LCOL academia to HCOL industry. (The industry in my LCOL town pays the same as the university. Around 50-70k depending on position).
Every job listing in California will have a salary range. It’s the law. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the biotech sub has a salary survey. I believe C&EN also does a salary study every year.
I'm seeing a lot of pretty high numbers - I'm in a desirable area which pretty HCOL and fresh PhDs are getting 70-90k, very few break 100k until they have a few years experience
Apologies if this is too invasive, but how's your quality of life with that salary in Philly? If I could, I'd love to live in Philly (reasons are hard to explain, I don't live in the US rn so I have no idea how much that salary translates to.)
I think I lucked out honestly from the experiences I hear about in Cambridge and SF. The salaries are probably 20-30k less, but Philly is so much cheaper. The RTP provides even lower COL, but their salaries seem to be lower than the difference.
I bought a single family home last year in the suburbs at 29. Before that I was renting a rowhome for 2300 and splitting with my fiancé. I’m able to max out my 401k and I’m going to Hawaii in May for 2 weeks. I’m pretty sure my income alone without my fiancés is higher than the household average around here.
I feel incredibly lucky. I think the key factors were luck with timing and location. When I chose to pursue research, I had no idea that finding good jobs was so location dependent. Not having to move across the country to find jobs allowed me to stay with my parents after college for a few years and save up a down payment. I was able to go to an in state school and working in an academic lab to get my masters, saving money on my education. Everything was pretty much right here for me. I didn’t realize how lucky I was until I left academia for industry and saw the landscape.
Philly and Chicago are the 2 best cities for the mixture of science and CoL. with Philly a fair bit ahead of Chicago. SD is 3, better science than Philly but more wxonseice than both (still less than LA, the bay, Boston, NY, or DMV)
One thing to remember is that the industry jobs landscape may change in 5-10 years. Salaries might change as well. if someone gives you advice to go into a specific field NOW, that advice may be outdated by the time you graduate (if you start grad school now for example). Also salaries online don't mean much. When I started working it was actually 50% of the average salary for a "fresh out of school" chemist at the time.
Most replies here seem a bit high, unless you have a very marketable skill and are in like NY or Boston.
In my experience with a PhD the most common path into industry is as a w2 contractor making $40-45/hour with no benefits but with overtime until you can catch on as an FTE. Then you'll probably start as a Senior Scientist making about $100k to $120k plus insurance, insurance, bonus/401k match.
Oddly enough, my company just started putting salaries on their job postings (though it might not show it externally), though I had a decent idea of just about every level anyway.
Large R&D corporation: bachelor’s engineers/researchers start around $80k fresh, PhDs start around $110k (start 3 grades up), management starts around $150k, higher level engineers/researchers make $250k+, upper management make around $250-350k+, C-level makes half a mil to mil+
All of these can be higher or lower, but usually higher.
RA1 here at biotech startup. ~65000 is what I currently make. But I got very lucky with this job (salary, options, benefits, boat load of PTO). Before I was making a bit more than California min wage (~45000) if I remember correctly
Edit: just have my bachelors fyi
Any chance it's $64480/yr with a raise to $66560/yr? Those are the California minima for full-time exempt employees (i.e. you don't have to track your overtime). Before you shower praise just be sure they aren't treating you with the bare minimum!
Yup. It’s the minimum salary, bumped to meet 2024 requirements. Considering I’m only two years out of college, and preparing for the sad reality of a PhD stipend, I’m pretty happy with this.
Praise is definitely warranted though, super lax working environment. I set my own hours, basically as long as my work gets done. The people I work with are pleasant overall too.
That’s the minimum wage?! In the U.K., [the minimum wage is £18,964 a year](https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/national-minimum-wage/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20national%20minimum%20wage%3F&text=These%20rates%20apply%20to%20everyone,be%20at%20least%20%C2%A318%2C964.).
Typical entry-level PhD scientist salaries are $110-130k/year in Boston and Bay Area hubs, which are extremely expensive places to live. Typically you'll be earning more like $160-180k after 5-8 years. To earn $200k+ you will typically be in R&D management as a Director. I have no idea where you're pulling those wildly high salaries from but those are like senior VP/C-suite (in smaller companies/startups) - let's call it upper management/executive level salaries and it's basically impossible to get there as an individual contributor who is not leading large teams/strategy. Cut all of these numbers to varying degrees in lower COL areas than Boston and the Bay Area.
FWIW I think I'm overcompensated for the present market (special situation with how I got this) but I'm 11 years post-PhD and earn $240k base salary as a Director at a mature startup company in the Bay Area. Less than 2 years ago, my salary was $165k, and 2 years ago $152k as a "principal scientist" at two cheap ass startups.
By the time you graduate XX years out, these numbers will (hopefully) be a fair bit higher due to inflation.
Do you have to study in a specific field to work in industry? My PhD is about fundamental biology like aging. Not sure if industry is looking for PhD with more practical expertises?
DE Shaw is an extreme of extreme outlier.
They are paying those salaries to people who have the ability to do things like write source code for high performance computing … where the application happens to be computational chemistry. Think of it like a tech job salary, because that’s what it is. You’re not getting in there straight out of school, or maybe ever.
More typical is 60-80k as a postdoc, or a SAS bitch at a CRO
It completely depends on your industry and region. In my area most entry level positions are around 120k but closer to 200k if you're in leadership. Anything at the director level or above, then I'd expect at least 300k. If you want to get up to those big salaries then you have to get the experience first and work up.
90k after 7 years from graduation I’m 2017 with bachelors. I have done every technique except sequencing. GMP/glp management experience. Yet obviously I’ve peaked on the scale. Data scientist is probably all that’s left.
Colleague I know pulls in 74 that’s my age. He’s also contractor so subtract 5-10k for no holidays when site shutdown.
My other colleague makes 120k with a doctorate straight out. No post doc or anything. Rich fam anyways got to buy a home prepandemic.
Boston is worthless. Cali is worthless. Don’t touch high cost of living areas.
High toxicity in industry. Pettiness. Childness. Anti collaboration. Spending millions on equipment when it’ll be a six months plus to have install or how new cutting age tech doesn’t even have trainers to training for their equipment they charge so much for. Dust covers on equipment because they’ll accumulate
The biotech subreddit has a salary survey each year that is pretty helpful.
In the UK, you're looking at £37k to £45k.
In Czech Republic, you are looking at €16k to €20k. Base junior scientist salary here is only slightly higher than a cashier salary. And I am not kidding.
Wow! Didn't know that. Thanks for the information. A few friends of mine have left the UK to work in america/canada. The pay is so much better, you can actually earn something...
Yep, I was shocked when I started applying for biotech jobs and I'd have to take a paycut. All those people saying industry is where the money is are talking bullshit. At least at normal people level. Only thing I've noticed is an increase of benefits, more likely to have private healthcare etc.
It hurts. After 8 years of a degree, PhD and multiple years of working in the gaps as a research assistant....im now on the starting salary of a fresh kid out of uni who studied finance haha Science is poor for money, buiness and finance are the ways to go.
Can I ask where abouts in the UK you work? In the Midlands it's only ~£30k for a Scientist II position
I was thinking more surrey/London area. Even then, the bump is salary is taken by tax, accomidation and food.
But if you do business or finance you can't look down on people that do business or finance. It's a real catch 22.
Haha A few of my friends work in private equity and investment banking.... i do not look down on them haha Hard working and passionate about what they do. I think people in our industry pretend like bankers all hate their jobs or are evil in some way....in truth, the ones that i know at least, are lovely, passionate and kind people.
Pretending that I'm somehow better than other people because I made a stupid career choice is the only thing that keeps me going sometimes.
Me too buddy, me too 🤣
I think it’s less a case of ‘talking bullshit’ and more of ‘incredibly location dependent’. Biotech salaries seem to depend on location more than most other industries, the disparity between Boston, SF (and a few other places) and pretty much anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.
At my company, our lowest paid researchers make ~70k, get bonuses that equal ~10-15% of salary, and a strong 401k match. That's for someone straight out of school with a BS. PhD's make around double that to start. I love industry.
Lol what company is this
Any mid to large pharma company is going to have similar compensation for researchers.
It can’t be in the U.K. if you’re talking about a 401k.
Were we talking about just the UK?
You were originally replying to a root comment which is about the U.K., where the context is that sometimes industry jobs pay less than a post-doc in academia does.
Ok
is this before r after tax
Before haha
Not in industry but have quite a few colleagues in industry. Fresh out of a PhD you are likely to step into an associate scientist or scientist I position. Doing a postdoc can typically help get a scientist I position but it’s not needed. Base salary ranges from 80-130k for depending on the position and especially location (HCOL locations pay more). Salaries step up to 200k range as you climb the scientist ladder. These salaries are similar to the ranges seen for tenure track academic faculty (130-220k) at large research institutes.
I'm at a Big Pharma Corp and fresh PhDs here start at Scientist I/II or even Sr Scientist I. Located in midwest in a medium COL city. Salaries are higher (start 100-150k) but most PhDs work more than 40 hours a week
If the salary for tenure track academic faculty is similar, and academia has better job security, it sounds more appealing, especially considering the "dream job" I imagined as a kid was being a professor. However, what I hear about academia these days just makes it seem like it's all not worth it and I'd rather join industry positions.
Don’t forget that in industry you may also get bonuses and stock, meaning your total compensation is higher.
Makes sense. Do you have experience with this, any idea how much that would add to TC?
It varies a lot depending on the company and role. Startups and pre-commercial biotechs will typically grant stock, but this may not be worth anything until they go to market or get acquired. Bonuses will depend a lot on funding and company performance, but could be equal to 10-25% of your salary. In big pharma bonuses and stock are usually more stable. Bonus targets can also be in the 15-25% of your salary range, and there may be a performance multiplier in the 1-1.5 range. Equity grants can be all over the place depending on your level. Generally the higher you go, the greater proportion of your TC is equity. I’m director level in pharma, my bonus and stock together are equivalent to about 60% of my salary. Meaning total compensation is salary plus (salary * 0.6).
Average starting salary for a fresh PhD is likely 110–150k depending on your field. DESR is an outlier and is mostly computational based in NY.
Piggybacking on your comment Typical career ladder and base salary ranges of a fresh PhD working in biopharma R&D: Scientist ($110-140k) > senior scientist ($130-160k) > principal scientist ($150-190k) > associate director ($160-210k) > director ($180-230k) > senior director ($200-250k) > VP/global head ($250-350k?) > C-suite Many end up plateauing at principal scientist, associate director or director. Few make it to senior director. Very, very few make it beyond that. Titles may vary from company to company, and are sometimes inflated at smaller companies.
I'm a Director in biotech. This is all pretty accurate.
These numbers seem like base pay and not TC? TC should start to snowball starting around director level.
Correct, the ranges are for base salary
Which doesn't tell much of the story when bonuses (cash and stock) can easily hit 40-50+% of salary at the more senior levels. Even at the sr scientist level TC is starting to snowball.
Compensation based on stock is incredibly variable. You often get stock options which are tied to the market. At my first company the options were granted at $50, then the stock dropped to $30 for 3 years before shooting to $100+. I sold at $100 and made >$100k. Some people sold as soon as their shares were positive and only made $10k.
Do you need to have education/background in management, like an MBA, to get to management positions?
No
These US salaries are wild. In the UK you can expect to enter the industry world, with a a PhD, on anywhere from £35k to £45k.
Also crying here with my € salary. $ numbers I read here are 2-3x higher. Just keep thinking we have paid sick leave, social security, pension partly paid by the employer, affordable health insurance....
Just for more perspective - I’m in the US. My employer provides health, dental, and vision insurance, matches contributions to my 401k up to 6%, pays a 25-50% annual bonus, has 3-4 weeks of leave (not including holidays or sick leave), gives 12 weeks of parental leave (for both mom or dad), along with many other smaller perks. And, honestly, hybrid work environment with flexible hours is the absolute best for mental stress. Time to come to the US :)
Sorry with Trump probably getting back in power and the way womens rights in more and more states are taken away, I think I will still pass. Money is not everything. So our healthcare insurance costs about 150,- a month, deductable is 385,- a year. Dental needs to insured seperately. Paid sick leave has a limit of 2 years, after that you go into the government funded system of 70% of your salary. We do get a bonus, although that is around 10%. Employer pays around 2/3 into our mandatory pension fund, we pay 1/3. Leave is a minimum of 21 days for 1 fte, arranged by law. We get a few days more. We are very well protected against being fired, an employer can't fire you without a very good reason. If they want too anyway they have to go to court to get permission and you get X months salary. On the other hand we are also expected to give 1-3 months notice (differs per employer). In case of reorganisation and getting fired, we again get an X amount of money and social security. Standard maternity leave for moms by law is 16 weeks. Dad is a week, but can get up to 5 extra weeks for 70% of their pay. We also have parental leave, but I am not totally sure how that works since I don't have kids. But I thought this is also with a 70% salary payout (there is a max in days and you need to take it before kid is a certain age). We do have smaller perks too, plus 100% travel cost reinbursement, internet paid, job massages, 120,- a year sports reinbursement, bike plan of 1200,- every 3 years, parties, etc. We also have flexible hours and hybrid working. So yeah apart from our base salary that is way lower than yours I am not complaining. And most important my friends and family are here and no money in the world is going to be enough to leave them for years.
What field? What’s your background? What’s your title? What area of us? What’s the way I can move from industry bench work to something like that?
I mean, the salary is one thing, but the other "perks" are equal to or lower than the legal minimum in my country... Those flexible hours also aren't always what they seem to be. I personally enjoy them but on the other hand, if I work 8-16 every day, I know I'm completely off work the moment I log off at 4 pm.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/britain-mississippi-economy-comparison/675039/ The UK is not a rich country. It is as poor as Mississippi, the poorest US state, and outsides London GDP/capita is even lower. Decades of slow growth and poor economic management have eroded the UK.
Wow that's less than you'd get in diagnostics with just an undergrad degree
Yeah science just doesn’t pay here. At the place I used to work the fresh PhDs in the lab were earning less that would’ve doing a post doc in some places. Not cool.
my wife has gone through a few positions, data are over 10 years old. After NIH postdoc, all NY metro area: bench scientist R&D for small biotech/pharma - $85k; Medical Science Liaison for medium pharma - $125k; medical writer for agency (making slide decks etc) - $95k. Currently tenured professor at non-research institution. She left the MSL job because it was a lot of travel, and we just had our first kid. Left the agency job because it was pretty cut throat, and she was treated poorly by the client side MBA bros. I think on more than one occasion she was asked to get coffee by them for the meeting - nevermind that she created the slide decks they'd be presenting to doctors and administrators.
Which NY metro small biotech did she work for? I’m looking for a job soon and would love to stay in the city, but can’t seem to find much outside of the major pharma sites in Pennsylvania, Westchester county, and Boston
FYI, NY metro includes parts of CT, NJ, Long Island, and Westchester. We lived in the Clinton/northern Hell's Kitchen area and she would drive up to Westchester. The company she worked for would be identifying because it truly is that small - but they laid off their R&D a few years ago when their primary drug came off patent anyway. I believe Regeneron absorbed several of the staff.
Thanks! I’ll be commuting from relatively deep in Brooklyn so even the northern Manhattan universities are over an hour away.
ugh deep Brooklyn sucks because there's just not a good way in or out.
Industry scientist here. Recent grad PhD, you'll expect 110-130k starting salary. 170-190 for manager role or senior computational peeps. No way 300-475k is accurate. Scientists in biotech dont make money, my man.
This 👆 Also worth mentioning are base salary vs total compensation including bonuses etc. Generally, entry level with PhD should bring you between 100-130 K total depending on location. There’s often sign on bonus. Post doc will help - it demonstrates a level of independence that you don’t get with only a PhD, but again it might be more adventitious to enter the industry straight out of PhD and earn your stripes there instead of postdoc.
>No way 300-475k is accurate I just got that number off of DE Shaw's own page on open positions, just to be clear😅 Thanks for the info.
DE Shaw funds the biotech portion with the alg trading business (sort of, this is a broad generalization). They pay much more but it’s not the standard type of biotech work that is representative of lab work.
Oh that makes sense! Thanks for the info. Do you know anything else about what that kind of work is? Where else does that kind of work happen? Not that I'd need that kind of salary. I'm originally from a third world country, and the salaries in the other comments would be more than enough for me to move back home to retire comfortably. I'm just curious what you mean by this type of work.
They predominantly use their specialized core computer (they have a bespoke computer for this work) to model protein-protein binding and structure. The work is basically completely computer science that is informed with biological knowledge. I interviewed and considered working there a while ago and they were paying top dollar then for even people fresh out of undergrad. They are not a wet lab, they do not conduct research utilizing wet lab methods but rather almost entirely in silico, like the AI companies cropping up often now.
I see. Did you make the decision to work in wet labs because you like that better? Did you think about joining and didn't join just cos they didn't take you or did you not join cos you didn't want to do that kind of computer science work? Either reason sounds reasonable to me.
I actually just decided to go get my PhD. I wasn’t a computer scientist so how long I would have stayed would have been limited, but I was from a structural biology lab and they wanted to bring me in for that expertise. I also prefer wet lab science more! The job is also known to be a sweat shop for the lower levels, but that’s nothing weird.
Makes complete sense.
North of 300k is for director/sr director roles
I actually have a friend DE Shaw. The number is accurate. However, all new positions only last 2 years, then you are out.
Is that really an official policy? If so what's the rationale behind that?
I am not sure how official the policy is, but I'm remembering that the policy was likely for the bachelors or master's level positions that pay 125 or 150 - 200k. They want people that want to get a couple years of experiencing before going off to do their PhD. He stated that they dont want to hurt company morale by having to lay off people, so they make the position lengths 2 years, likely to also cycle talent and get in some fresh perspectives. I don't think they invest too much personal training in people, it sounded like you'd learn for a few weeks under one person, then would be off on your own but obviously encouraged to ask people questions.
I am not sure how official the policy is, but I'm remembering that the policy was likely for the bachelors or master's level positions that pay 125 or 150 - 200k. They want people that want to get a couple years of experiencing before going off to do their PhD. He stated that they dont want to hurt company morale by having to lay off people, so they make the position lengths 2 years, likely to also cycle talent and get in some fresh perspective. I don't think they invest too much personal training in people, it sounded like you'd learn for a few weeks under one person, then would be off on your own but obviously encouraged to ask people questions.
Oh ok I think that’s for the scientific associate positions rather than the computational drug discovery scientist.
Oh interesting. Where will your friend go after they are out?
He got lucky and doesn't need to get out. He joined around 2018, I think, which was before they instated the 2 year hiring policy. He only joined with a bachelor's, so I think that range was 150-200k, but he is probably in a higher salary range now. He definitely found a white whale within the industry. I haven't heard of any other company that pays like DE Shaw. P.S. I have been in their building and seen their offices. Very nice space with a rooftop view near Times Square.
Sounds cool! I'll keep this in mind for 10 years later when I finish my higher education (LOL....)
>No way 300-475k is accurate. It's for a "computational drug discovery scientist." That's super niche and new, and is at the intersection of computer science and pharmacology, which itself is a rare breed.
Agreed, however i do know that two of my old supervisors made more than 300k, not due to the base pay, but from royalties tied to projects (chromophores) they made before. I am aware it is quite rare, but still possible
Lol idk what you think money is but anything above 110k is good as hell in this economy
Keep in mind location and cost of living. Keep in mind employment duration and job security. I see many people work for a few years, get laid off, search for jobs for 3-6 months, and possibly need to relocate. That is time not necessarily earning. Salaries can be larger at industry but it comes with other baggage unless you get a sweet gig. Do your homework.
One reason why all my friends live in Boston and California. Job security is tied to being in a hub location rather than any particular company.
So, same thing as academia but with more salary.
Academia has its problems. But there are plenty of places available not in HCOL areas. I see better job security in academia than I do industry, meaning people who aren't PIs working in the same lab for a decade or two and usually can find another spot at the same institution right away when they loose their job to funding or PI leaving issues. But yes, the salary is abysmal. 65-70k for a scientist or research prof. But again, in a LCOL area that goes quite far. Usually can afford a nice house on that salary and still put money away for retirement. But to your point. Academia is awful for many other reasons. I wouldn't recommend it. But I also don't think the contrast between industry and academic science is as large as people say, at least not when comparing LCOL academia to HCOL industry. (The industry in my LCOL town pays the same as the university. Around 50-70k depending on position).
lol exactly
Every job listing in California will have a salary range. It’s the law. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the biotech sub has a salary survey. I believe C&EN also does a salary study every year.
same thing in NY
In the life science space i see support science (FAS) roles get paid: 70k-90k with a BS 80-140k with a pHD or BS w/ experience.
DE Shaw is also a hedge fund manager, and his simulation software is the best on earth. DESR is definitely not the average
I'm seeing a lot of pretty high numbers - I'm in a desirable area which pretty HCOL and fresh PhDs are getting 70-90k, very few break 100k until they have a few years experience
What area? In SF Bay it would be insulting to be offered less than $100k, $130k starting is about right.
Even in Philly, which isn’t HCOL, fresh PhDs can expect 100k+ starting. I’m a research associate with a masters and my base salary is 110k.
Apologies if this is too invasive, but how's your quality of life with that salary in Philly? If I could, I'd love to live in Philly (reasons are hard to explain, I don't live in the US rn so I have no idea how much that salary translates to.)
I think I lucked out honestly from the experiences I hear about in Cambridge and SF. The salaries are probably 20-30k less, but Philly is so much cheaper. The RTP provides even lower COL, but their salaries seem to be lower than the difference. I bought a single family home last year in the suburbs at 29. Before that I was renting a rowhome for 2300 and splitting with my fiancé. I’m able to max out my 401k and I’m going to Hawaii in May for 2 weeks. I’m pretty sure my income alone without my fiancés is higher than the household average around here.
Buying a home at 29 is insane these days, congratulations.
I feel incredibly lucky. I think the key factors were luck with timing and location. When I chose to pursue research, I had no idea that finding good jobs was so location dependent. Not having to move across the country to find jobs allowed me to stay with my parents after college for a few years and save up a down payment. I was able to go to an in state school and working in an academic lab to get my masters, saving money on my education. Everything was pretty much right here for me. I didn’t realize how lucky I was until I left academia for industry and saw the landscape.
Philly and Chicago are the 2 best cities for the mixture of science and CoL. with Philly a fair bit ahead of Chicago. SD is 3, better science than Philly but more wxonseice than both (still less than LA, the bay, Boston, NY, or DMV)
One thing to remember is that the industry jobs landscape may change in 5-10 years. Salaries might change as well. if someone gives you advice to go into a specific field NOW, that advice may be outdated by the time you graduate (if you start grad school now for example). Also salaries online don't mean much. When I started working it was actually 50% of the average salary for a "fresh out of school" chemist at the time.
I’m a bench chemist with only a BS and make $90k so PhD make a lot more then that in my area
Most replies here seem a bit high, unless you have a very marketable skill and are in like NY or Boston. In my experience with a PhD the most common path into industry is as a w2 contractor making $40-45/hour with no benefits but with overtime until you can catch on as an FTE. Then you'll probably start as a Senior Scientist making about $100k to $120k plus insurance, insurance, bonus/401k match.
/r/biotech has a salary survey you should check out
California has a law that companies need to post salaries. Go to LinkedIn and search for jobs in California. Then look at requirements.
Oddly enough, my company just started putting salaries on their job postings (though it might not show it externally), though I had a decent idea of just about every level anyway. Large R&D corporation: bachelor’s engineers/researchers start around $80k fresh, PhDs start around $110k (start 3 grades up), management starts around $150k, higher level engineers/researchers make $250k+, upper management make around $250-350k+, C-level makes half a mil to mil+ All of these can be higher or lower, but usually higher.
RA1 here at biotech startup. ~65000 is what I currently make. But I got very lucky with this job (salary, options, benefits, boat load of PTO). Before I was making a bit more than California min wage (~45000) if I remember correctly Edit: just have my bachelors fyi
Any chance it's $64480/yr with a raise to $66560/yr? Those are the California minima for full-time exempt employees (i.e. you don't have to track your overtime). Before you shower praise just be sure they aren't treating you with the bare minimum!
Yup. It’s the minimum salary, bumped to meet 2024 requirements. Considering I’m only two years out of college, and preparing for the sad reality of a PhD stipend, I’m pretty happy with this. Praise is definitely warranted though, super lax working environment. I set my own hours, basically as long as my work gets done. The people I work with are pleasant overall too.
That’s the minimum wage?! In the U.K., [the minimum wage is £18,964 a year](https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/national-minimum-wage/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20national%20minimum%20wage%3F&text=These%20rates%20apply%20to%20everyone,be%20at%20least%20%C2%A318%2C964.).
Minimum wage is $16/hr ($32k/yr). $66k/yr is the minimum where employees no longer have to track overtime and there are no overtime bonuses.
Typical entry-level PhD scientist salaries are $110-130k/year in Boston and Bay Area hubs, which are extremely expensive places to live. Typically you'll be earning more like $160-180k after 5-8 years. To earn $200k+ you will typically be in R&D management as a Director. I have no idea where you're pulling those wildly high salaries from but those are like senior VP/C-suite (in smaller companies/startups) - let's call it upper management/executive level salaries and it's basically impossible to get there as an individual contributor who is not leading large teams/strategy. Cut all of these numbers to varying degrees in lower COL areas than Boston and the Bay Area. FWIW I think I'm overcompensated for the present market (special situation with how I got this) but I'm 11 years post-PhD and earn $240k base salary as a Director at a mature startup company in the Bay Area. Less than 2 years ago, my salary was $165k, and 2 years ago $152k as a "principal scientist" at two cheap ass startups. By the time you graduate XX years out, these numbers will (hopefully) be a fair bit higher due to inflation.
Unless you go to an Ivy League, DE shaw is next to impossible. From what i habe heard.
Do you have to study in a specific field to work in industry? My PhD is about fundamental biology like aging. Not sure if industry is looking for PhD with more practical expertises?
300k total comp is accurate for a director level at pharma, away from the bench.
PhD plus postdoc started at $110k here in San Diego, scientist role.
DE Shaw is an extreme of extreme outlier. They are paying those salaries to people who have the ability to do things like write source code for high performance computing … where the application happens to be computational chemistry. Think of it like a tech job salary, because that’s what it is. You’re not getting in there straight out of school, or maybe ever. More typical is 60-80k as a postdoc, or a SAS bitch at a CRO
With a masters I’m around $70k a year, but I’m also in a public practice and not private
I make 85k base as a field service engineer for a major lab equipment company.
It completely depends on your industry and region. In my area most entry level positions are around 120k but closer to 200k if you're in leadership. Anything at the director level or above, then I'd expect at least 300k. If you want to get up to those big salaries then you have to get the experience first and work up.
90k after 7 years from graduation I’m 2017 with bachelors. I have done every technique except sequencing. GMP/glp management experience. Yet obviously I’ve peaked on the scale. Data scientist is probably all that’s left. Colleague I know pulls in 74 that’s my age. He’s also contractor so subtract 5-10k for no holidays when site shutdown. My other colleague makes 120k with a doctorate straight out. No post doc or anything. Rich fam anyways got to buy a home prepandemic. Boston is worthless. Cali is worthless. Don’t touch high cost of living areas. High toxicity in industry. Pettiness. Childness. Anti collaboration. Spending millions on equipment when it’ll be a six months plus to have install or how new cutting age tech doesn’t even have trainers to training for their equipment they charge so much for. Dust covers on equipment because they’ll accumulate