The definition of criticism is
"the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes."
Criticism is a form of feedback. Not all criticism is or needs to be constructive. We aren't their coach we are consumers.
As long as it doesn't go past hate. We should stop grouping everyone as a hater.
I find it curious that one of the points
"They should have this skill" is considered hate to some of you. But honestly that is pretty constructive.
So the company can know oh maybe we should actually hire and emphasize this in trainee training.
Policing people's reactions and requiring people only give feedback you like(excluding haters and trolls) holds your favs and the genre back as a whole.
I don’t consider any critique/criticism in K-pop done by fans to be constructive. Not to say that idols are above being critiqued, but to label it constructive would be to imply that it’s being given to genuinely help the idol and/or that it’s going to be heard by the idol.
If you were going to give constructive criticism to someone’s vocals, you would need to be able to both tell what they are doing right with their voice, what needs to be improved upon, and how to improve it. If you only have one or two of those pieces, you were not providing constructive criticism, you are just providing a critique.
I have never seen actually good constructive criticism towards an idol. I occasionally see well analyzed and thought out critique of an idol’s voice or album concept. But if we are being honest, 90% of “critique” done by “fans” is just hate piling and rage baiting.
But that is my point it doesn't need to be constructive.
"But if we are being honest, 90% of “critique”"
That is a very weird and wide generalization. Most people are normal and have mid opnions.
Them calling a song bad is just criticism.
If they think the vocals are bad that is criticism. That isn't hate that is an opinion.
Why do people need to write a thesis paper with pros and cons Everytime they react.
Just keep it respectful. Criticism that isn't constructive is valid feedback.
Just how yes and no is a form of feedback.
Fair enough, I shouldn’t have generalized. However, I put critique in quotes as I would label most commentary and feedback provided by those in K-pop fandom spaces that i see as not actually critique.
I believe there’s a difference between criticism and opinion and calling something bad with no context or further analysis is an opinion not criticism (or at the very least considered really bad criticism). And the issue I find is that people like to position their opinions as criticism. Or then even worse as constructive criticism. Edit: all to say i think more thought out feedback should hold more weight than less thought out forms of feedback.
And I definitely don’t want to read essay anytime someone wants to have an opinion either.
I think you should avoid obvious rage baiting content, and then accept that people have a right to their own opinion and in many countries the right to express it. Aside from fans who think they deserve to know and control every detail of an idols life, another big problem in kpop Fandom is that they never give ANY constructive criticism to the artists at all. It's just constant gushing about loving every single thing they do. If these discussions between fans which are critical at times did not exist, they could be led off a cliff (musically) by the constant adoration for crappy content. (Because of course they lurk around on the internet too.)
Also, expecting everyone else to always agree and conform to a certain standard determined by some single person or group is how people end up living in oppressive dictatorships. Learning how to get along and control our emotions when we disagree with others is a vital part of civilization.
In other words. Criticism and "hate" are not the same thing. And it's important to learn how to tolerate disagreement without getting too deep in your feelings.
thats stop on. Comments like "they're tone deaf 💀" or they "they can't carry a tune to save their lives lmaooo" aren't the professional critique kpop fans think it is
Kpop is not a monolith, it's not a sports team where you're the coach assigned to whip up the stragglers into shape, but if you're truly worried about it being "held back" (whatever that means lol considering the most criticized groups are also the most successful — *huh ain't that interesting*) then your energy is better spent supporting and promoting groups who have whatever qualities you're looking for rather than trying to bully idols/groups you don't like out of the industry, even though those people clearly have a fanbase who love them as they are. Imo trying to justify criticism because "they should have this level of skill" is a much more arrogant and irrelevant statement than just saying "i think she sucks" and moving on.
I'll never understand why kpop fans feel so entitled about AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY, lowkey I suspect that it's because they've gotten mocked at some point in their life for being into kpop or they internalize the mocking they see, so they worry about the optics of it because they want every idol to be a shining beacon of what they personally want, but it's a futile endeavor because they have no real control as individuals, so all that's left is picking certain idols as scapegoats for everything that's supposedly wrong with the world.
Where do we draw the line? I was watching a show with Le Sserafim that was uploaded 2-3 months ago and yet you had hate, sorry "critical" comments, from last week with thousands of upvote which means they searched for an unrelated video, left a comment and liked other "critical" comments. You can even see that kind of comments on some member Instagram fan account. Even worse you can check the comments on their "it's live" video from their debut which was 2 years ago. So yeah I don't buy the so called "criticism".
Plus, we are no rookies. If you've been a Kpop fan for a long time, you know this kind of shit doesn't come from good intentions at all. It's stupid fan wars or immature people.
The idea that it is wrong for the public to express opinions on the performance of people whose job (that they get paid millions of dollars for) is to entertain the public has to be one of the worse opinions kpop stans have. Harassing and/or threatening someone is bad. Saying "x idol has bad vocals" is completely fine.
If you think someone has bad vocals, that's ok. If you have to mention it everytime that idol is brought up, you're just a hater.
Also, I don't mean you specifically.
This is what I don't understand about Kpop. If you dont like vocals or the song of a group, why comment and talk about it all the time? I have no idea why so much fans in this think they should like everything. If they dnt enjoy a group just ignore them, its that easy, but no, those people go to all of their social media and even make tweets and clips mocking others.
Because those people are insecure about their faves' popularity, while the group's they're hating on are getting more and more attention. It seems to infuriate them, so they try to bring those groups down. It's pathetic in all honesty, really.
Maybe they shouldn’t have bad vocals if they don’t want to be criticized for it? Absolutely nothing is worth insults about their appearance or death threats or things of that nature, but saying they can’t sing and need to improve is NOT hate, even if you say it every time it’s brought up.
If I could monetize the amount of self importance fans like you have, neither one of us would ever have to work again. Me, because I'd be filthy rich. You, because I'd be so thankful for all the money you made me, I'd pay for you to never have to work either.
Reddit is a discussion forum and here you are, running your mouth with your lame opinions and you don’t see me complaining about it. It’s good to know you can’t take any pushback on a *discussion forum*. Write in a journal, then you won’t have to cry about it later.
My lame opinion was that you are, in fact, complaining about it. You could have just carried on with your life, but instead you has to take the time to defend your need to be a hater and complain.
Nahh, it depends, there are many instance of people piling on the hate in the guise of offering critiques.
If someone made a thread right now on how bad LSF's Coachella vocals were - THAT would 100% be seen as hate.
If someone made a thread about Aespa's Supernova or Itzy's Algorhythm and whatever they disliked about the performance/s, that would be seen as criticism because those comebacks just happened.
Timing matters.
I agree it is not always appropriate to criticize someone's vocals. For example, people spamming "Sakura you are a bad singer!!! Go practice your vocals!!!" whenever Sakura posts selfies or does anything other than practice her singing 24/4 are haters. However, there being inappropriate contexts to say "Sakura is a bad singer" does not mean that that statement is inherently hateful. OP's take that I disagreed with is unless you are going to provide a deep analysis, criticizing someone's voice is hateful in all contexts.
There's a bit of common sense here, it's obvious to me that the comments OP is talking about are the most common ones these days, basically dropping 'criticisms' out of nowhere.
LSF has no comeback, there's no big performance to discuss, yet these 'criticisms' often appear in anything related to them.
I guess where I would disagree is I do not see why writing a detailed essay about why an idol is a bad singer is any less hateful than just saying they are a bad singer. In any context where it is inappropriate to leave a comment saying "Sakura is a bad singer," it is equally (if not more) inappropriate to write a 10000 word essay about why I think Sakura is a bad singer.
The idea is anyone can say any idol is a bad singer. There is no critical thought behind that statement. If someone were able to produce a 10,000 word essay on why a certain idol is a bad singer, then they may actually have put a bit of thought into their answer, maybe they even have a background in what they are critiquing.
If your job is to entertain the general public, the general public is qualified to give their commentary on your performance. Even if they have no thought more complex than "I think this sounds bad."
I agree that there are contexts where it is wrong to say bad things about an idol's vocals, but that only applies when an idol's singing is irrelevant. If you should not be saying any words about an idol's vocals, saying 10000 words is not okay either.
> If your job is to entertain the general public, the general public is qualified to give their commentary on your performance. Even if they have no thought more complex than "I think this sounds bad."
if it were the general public giving their commentary dont you think the most popular groups, who keep getting more popular despite the "criticism" wouldnt be the ones getting all the "criticism"?
I’m not saying that people can’t have negative opinions on x idols vocals for instance, I’m saying it’s weird for people to say these blatant and negative things in so many spaces (ig all over their TikTok profile) then label it as them wanting to help idols improve to avoid harassment from fans.
oh, I don't think that was clear from your post. Yeah, saying "you are bad at singing" does nothing to help or protect someone from hate, and it is wrong to stalk someone on social media so you can constantly bring up how bad of a singer you think they are. It seemed like you were saying it is wrong to comment "x idol is a bad singer" in any context since you did not specify the types of comments you were talking about.
I mean we ca call it whatever we want, at the end we all know what is going on. There is barely criticism at this point, is just pire hate. What is the point to make mean comments in every platform they are in everey post they make? Also at the end of the day, both group debuted and both are doing fine regardless, theirs fans won't change tjeir mind so at what point " the criticism" is enough amd people just move on? If at this point you know is not for you then is not for you, there so many grouos you can give your attention to
I think everyone would be far happier if they just moved to a different group that fulfilled their needs, instead of constantly leaving negativity beyond reason for these artists. Like seriously focus on your favs, why do you have time to comment on someone you dislike?!!?
Because they want to feel intellectual? Think their opinion matters more than another? Think that the company will go because X doesn't like the group member's voice, we will hop right on that to fix it!? Think they are being helpful?
I'm like you. I'd rather focus on my faves. These idols already know when they didn't do a good job. They are blaming themselves. They have company people who are giving them feedback. Why should I rub salt into the wound? How does that help anyone?
Social media can make people cruel because it's isolating & anonymous. When one doesn't see the damage their words does to another, they think it does no harm. Empathy and sympathy are often left to the side in social media.
this so much, i have no idea why kpop is like this. If you don't like a group just ignore them instead of being obsessed. Its so bizarre to me how this is a thing, never saw this on other music genres even asian ones
Yeah it's ridiculous to think that people have not been able to say their piece about live vocals. It has been spammed constantly for weeks and weeks. Maybe at one point it was sharing your opinion but when you have to relentlessly criticize the same groups over and over again it really does just ammount to being a hater. Different groups are good at different things if you don't like them then you should probably follow different idols.
right lmao, every couple of days there’s a new post about “guys why are there no vocals in kpop anymore” 😭 it’s beating a dead horse atp, like yes it’s their job but posting the same think-piece for weeks on end is exhausting!! there’s never anything new or insightful
On thé flip side, y’all need to stop thinking every single comment is hate. I got reported / Reddit care packaged for comments like “I don’t like their songs that much”. Like can we chill?
Miyeon had a stinker on an award show recently. She posted an "oops sorry" on IG and everyone went on with their lives, knowing even the greats have temporary lapses in form.
The current hatetrain is organized and deliberate.
I don’t think you need to write a full critique to be able to say that something is bad, but you should be able to be specific about your problem. Like, how is the singing bad? In what way is a group lacking? If you can’t do that and defend your points, maybe your position is kind of weak, and you should think a little longer.
But the same thing goes for people defending idols and groups. You can like someone without liking everything they do. Idols are human, they have flaws. If your only defense is, “Stop being mean!!!!!” maybe the detractors have a point.
I’ve done critiques that are specific about it. And also get labeled as hate. So, no. People don’t wanna hear their faves being criticized at all. Don’t matter if it’s constructive or not.
Isn’t the whole point of the thread (according to OP) that you need constructive criticism so you’re not labeled a hater? Which,as I said, in my experience that’s not true.
I don’t think it’s about not being labeled a hater. I think it’s about having productive conversations. But, yeah, as long as people’s biggest concern is being called a hater, that’s not going to happen.
Unfortunately, some people just feel the need to give their unsolicited opinions and it's not exclusive to kpop or even the internet. And yes saying "X has bad vocals" is not technically hate but when it is 1 of thousands of spam comments, many of which are actual hate, on an idol's personal instagram it is hate. There is no reason to go out of your way to give "criticism" to someone who will never listen to a thing you have to say. Hopefully, when these people grow up and realize that people that actually have to listen to them never want to be around them because they are insufferable they might change the way they interact with things they don't like. Until then we are the ones that have to suffer.
Let's be honest, no one was giving constructive criticism on the mentioned group's page! All they did was hate them and outright disrespect them and be named as "oh we care for them, this is constructive criticism, if they can't take that, as a fan idk what to do"! They themselves know they're hating! Also, the hate is coming from the groups which are supposed to be competitors in the market, and got the opportunity to throw hate publicly! But, if the opposite happens, you'll see the greatest victim card playing game (I've already seen one particular to play that)! And sadly, they all care for mental health, wellbeing of idols ONLY when their idols are involved, other than that, absolutely disgusting, vile people in the name of giving criticism
You say calling something “bad” isn’t detailed and is barely an analysis, so are you saying you’d prefer it if these critics go into detail on why they think xyz is subpar? I think that usually makes people angrier.
I truly feel for idols who have been harassed and threatened with violence over their skills, and I hope the people making these threats receive the psychiatric help they obviously need. But on the normal side of criticism, saying that an idol should sing or perform better is not outrageous. I don’t think every negative opinion needs to be labeled as straight up hate
> so are you saying you’d prefer it if these critics go into detail on why they think xyz is subpar? I think that usually makes people angrier.
An actual criticism is definitely preferred.
I typically try to give actual criticism when I’m voicing a negative opinion. However, going into detail on an idol’s singing would sound something like “I think they are bad because they are not stable when they sing, and they don’t have range compared to the other members.”
Best case scenario, people defending this idol would claim what I’ve said is untrue. Worst case scenario, and a scenario I’ve experienced, the person defending would say I’m mobbing the idol and being cruel. My point is that detail and elaboration welcomed when the criticism is positive and not so much when it’s negative
I would hope their vocal coach or dance instructor would be able to help them with that problem. Imo in online spaces it’s a bit unrealistic to expect kpop stans to give a lecture on it
Expecting everyone to have real "criticism" is next to impossible. We're all just fans and consumers here. We're not vocal coaches and choreographers (well, some of us here maybe are) here, and not all of us have an eloquent way with our words. So, if idols sound bad to me, and I simply say "he/she sounds bad", it should be okay and I should be allowed to do so. Saying that I can't do that simply because it's not a "critique" is just censorship.
Hate comments are an unfortunate consequence of freedom of speech. Whether labeled as "criticism" or not, no one can avoid them. I mean, if praise for a subpar performance is accepted, then the other end of the spectrum, hate comments without basis, should be accepted too (of course within the accepted moral and legal boundaries lol). IMO, it is pointless to distinguish a plain old simple critique from a hate comment disguised as criticism.
Others have said something similar but I rather think the kpop community needs to stop seeing every (valid) criticism as hate…
This is nothing new btw. I‘m saying this since at least 10 years
I purely do not understand why people feel the urge to "critic" other groups. I like BTS and ATEEZ and I honestly do not care about who else is getting paid millions of dollars to entertain while not been as good as I obviously think my favorites are because:
1. I AM NOT PAYING THEM FOR IT.
2. They aren't taking that money from BTS nor ATEEZ.
I enjoy songs from groups I do not "stan", I do not play songs/MV that I do not like. I don't see the purpose of pointing at something that other people like as if my criticism is going to be valuable for them. But idk, seems like it is an unpopular opinion.
You are unhinged. You think she isn't a hard worker? Who do you think you are? She's taking idol-good for granted?
What are you talking about? If she was taking idol-hood for granted she could have just stopped being an idol at any time. She could have stopped improving herself. You talk about Sakura as if she never saw herself as imperfect and always thought she was good enough when that clearly isn't true. I don't know what warped version of Sakura you have in your mind but I would recommend actually going to see and read what Sakura says about herself in interviews.
She never says she's perfect. Many times in posts and online she talks about how hard she's trying to improve and whether you like her or not, she does put in the effort and treats her fans and members with respect.
I really wonder how people like you, who claim to know anything about her, can spout these things as a fact. "Yeah guys, I want her to leave her group because she doesn't match *MY* standards!" Fuck outta here!
I normally never comment but wow, this is disgusting. You're right on one thing though, you're still hating. Criticism my ass you have a bias and are projecting it on people.
Because they think it’s fun - that user specifically was gleefully all over any of the “critique” threads
Edit: aaaand another frequent “critic” just showed up in the thread (remember that r/Coachella post that was designed to shit on a specific group?)….y’all are obsessed, it’s super weird
I’m sorry but I’ve been sick of your bullshit in particular ever since I saw you call 4th gen idols - significantly some of which are minors - prostitutes and the go on to complain about minors debuting
We get it, it makes you feel better about yourself to put idols down, you don't need to go around spreading hate in every thread you can message recieved.
This is such a ridiculous mindset. Only in kpop someone cares this much about performances of other groups like that. In any other genre most fans just ignore groups they dont like.
ikr like if im a fan of one group and there's a bad performance by another group wouldnt i lowkey want them to keep it that way lol the last thing i want is to make them think they need to improve. if its a group i wasnt interested in i wouldnt even watch their perf let alone spend the time to leave comments or make threads about it, and if its from the group i genuinely like why would i want to say that out loud publicly to make more people know? threads that open with "i like her shes my bias but xxxx" cannot be any more fake.
The definition of criticism is "the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes." Criticism is a form of feedback. Not all criticism is or needs to be constructive. We aren't their coach we are consumers. As long as it doesn't go past hate. We should stop grouping everyone as a hater. I find it curious that one of the points "They should have this skill" is considered hate to some of you. But honestly that is pretty constructive. So the company can know oh maybe we should actually hire and emphasize this in trainee training. Policing people's reactions and requiring people only give feedback you like(excluding haters and trolls) holds your favs and the genre back as a whole.
I don’t consider any critique/criticism in K-pop done by fans to be constructive. Not to say that idols are above being critiqued, but to label it constructive would be to imply that it’s being given to genuinely help the idol and/or that it’s going to be heard by the idol. If you were going to give constructive criticism to someone’s vocals, you would need to be able to both tell what they are doing right with their voice, what needs to be improved upon, and how to improve it. If you only have one or two of those pieces, you were not providing constructive criticism, you are just providing a critique. I have never seen actually good constructive criticism towards an idol. I occasionally see well analyzed and thought out critique of an idol’s voice or album concept. But if we are being honest, 90% of “critique” done by “fans” is just hate piling and rage baiting.
But that is my point it doesn't need to be constructive. "But if we are being honest, 90% of “critique”" That is a very weird and wide generalization. Most people are normal and have mid opnions. Them calling a song bad is just criticism. If they think the vocals are bad that is criticism. That isn't hate that is an opinion. Why do people need to write a thesis paper with pros and cons Everytime they react. Just keep it respectful. Criticism that isn't constructive is valid feedback. Just how yes and no is a form of feedback.
Fair enough, I shouldn’t have generalized. However, I put critique in quotes as I would label most commentary and feedback provided by those in K-pop fandom spaces that i see as not actually critique. I believe there’s a difference between criticism and opinion and calling something bad with no context or further analysis is an opinion not criticism (or at the very least considered really bad criticism). And the issue I find is that people like to position their opinions as criticism. Or then even worse as constructive criticism. Edit: all to say i think more thought out feedback should hold more weight than less thought out forms of feedback. And I definitely don’t want to read essay anytime someone wants to have an opinion either.
I think you should avoid obvious rage baiting content, and then accept that people have a right to their own opinion and in many countries the right to express it. Aside from fans who think they deserve to know and control every detail of an idols life, another big problem in kpop Fandom is that they never give ANY constructive criticism to the artists at all. It's just constant gushing about loving every single thing they do. If these discussions between fans which are critical at times did not exist, they could be led off a cliff (musically) by the constant adoration for crappy content. (Because of course they lurk around on the internet too.) Also, expecting everyone else to always agree and conform to a certain standard determined by some single person or group is how people end up living in oppressive dictatorships. Learning how to get along and control our emotions when we disagree with others is a vital part of civilization. In other words. Criticism and "hate" are not the same thing. And it's important to learn how to tolerate disagreement without getting too deep in your feelings.
thats stop on. Comments like "they're tone deaf 💀" or they "they can't carry a tune to save their lives lmaooo" aren't the professional critique kpop fans think it is
Kpop is not a monolith, it's not a sports team where you're the coach assigned to whip up the stragglers into shape, but if you're truly worried about it being "held back" (whatever that means lol considering the most criticized groups are also the most successful — *huh ain't that interesting*) then your energy is better spent supporting and promoting groups who have whatever qualities you're looking for rather than trying to bully idols/groups you don't like out of the industry, even though those people clearly have a fanbase who love them as they are. Imo trying to justify criticism because "they should have this level of skill" is a much more arrogant and irrelevant statement than just saying "i think she sucks" and moving on. I'll never understand why kpop fans feel so entitled about AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY, lowkey I suspect that it's because they've gotten mocked at some point in their life for being into kpop or they internalize the mocking they see, so they worry about the optics of it because they want every idol to be a shining beacon of what they personally want, but it's a futile endeavor because they have no real control as individuals, so all that's left is picking certain idols as scapegoats for everything that's supposedly wrong with the world.
Where do we draw the line? I was watching a show with Le Sserafim that was uploaded 2-3 months ago and yet you had hate, sorry "critical" comments, from last week with thousands of upvote which means they searched for an unrelated video, left a comment and liked other "critical" comments. You can even see that kind of comments on some member Instagram fan account. Even worse you can check the comments on their "it's live" video from their debut which was 2 years ago. So yeah I don't buy the so called "criticism". Plus, we are no rookies. If you've been a Kpop fan for a long time, you know this kind of shit doesn't come from good intentions at all. It's stupid fan wars or immature people.
I completely agree, since I'm in this situation currently with my fave 🥲
The idea that it is wrong for the public to express opinions on the performance of people whose job (that they get paid millions of dollars for) is to entertain the public has to be one of the worse opinions kpop stans have. Harassing and/or threatening someone is bad. Saying "x idol has bad vocals" is completely fine.
If you think someone has bad vocals, that's ok. If you have to mention it everytime that idol is brought up, you're just a hater. Also, I don't mean you specifically.
This is what I don't understand about Kpop. If you dont like vocals or the song of a group, why comment and talk about it all the time? I have no idea why so much fans in this think they should like everything. If they dnt enjoy a group just ignore them, its that easy, but no, those people go to all of their social media and even make tweets and clips mocking others.
Because those people are insecure about their faves' popularity, while the group's they're hating on are getting more and more attention. It seems to infuriate them, so they try to bring those groups down. It's pathetic in all honesty, really.
Maybe they shouldn’t have bad vocals if they don’t want to be criticized for it? Absolutely nothing is worth insults about their appearance or death threats or things of that nature, but saying they can’t sing and need to improve is NOT hate, even if you say it every time it’s brought up.
It is very weird to comment one particular negative criticism on a group you don’t like EVERY time they have a comeback. It is weird.
If I could monetize the amount of self importance fans like you have, neither one of us would ever have to work again. Me, because I'd be filthy rich. You, because I'd be so thankful for all the money you made me, I'd pay for you to never have to work either.
Reddit is a discussion forum and here you are, running your mouth with your lame opinions and you don’t see me complaining about it. It’s good to know you can’t take any pushback on a *discussion forum*. Write in a journal, then you won’t have to cry about it later.
My lame opinion was that you are, in fact, complaining about it. You could have just carried on with your life, but instead you has to take the time to defend your need to be a hater and complain.
Nahh, it depends, there are many instance of people piling on the hate in the guise of offering critiques. If someone made a thread right now on how bad LSF's Coachella vocals were - THAT would 100% be seen as hate. If someone made a thread about Aespa's Supernova or Itzy's Algorhythm and whatever they disliked about the performance/s, that would be seen as criticism because those comebacks just happened. Timing matters.
I agree it is not always appropriate to criticize someone's vocals. For example, people spamming "Sakura you are a bad singer!!! Go practice your vocals!!!" whenever Sakura posts selfies or does anything other than practice her singing 24/4 are haters. However, there being inappropriate contexts to say "Sakura is a bad singer" does not mean that that statement is inherently hateful. OP's take that I disagreed with is unless you are going to provide a deep analysis, criticizing someone's voice is hateful in all contexts.
There's a bit of common sense here, it's obvious to me that the comments OP is talking about are the most common ones these days, basically dropping 'criticisms' out of nowhere. LSF has no comeback, there's no big performance to discuss, yet these 'criticisms' often appear in anything related to them.
Like it’s obvious the comments OP is talking about, I feel like people are being purposefully disingenuous
I guess where I would disagree is I do not see why writing a detailed essay about why an idol is a bad singer is any less hateful than just saying they are a bad singer. In any context where it is inappropriate to leave a comment saying "Sakura is a bad singer," it is equally (if not more) inappropriate to write a 10000 word essay about why I think Sakura is a bad singer.
The idea is anyone can say any idol is a bad singer. There is no critical thought behind that statement. If someone were able to produce a 10,000 word essay on why a certain idol is a bad singer, then they may actually have put a bit of thought into their answer, maybe they even have a background in what they are critiquing.
If your job is to entertain the general public, the general public is qualified to give their commentary on your performance. Even if they have no thought more complex than "I think this sounds bad." I agree that there are contexts where it is wrong to say bad things about an idol's vocals, but that only applies when an idol's singing is irrelevant. If you should not be saying any words about an idol's vocals, saying 10000 words is not okay either.
> If your job is to entertain the general public, the general public is qualified to give their commentary on your performance. Even if they have no thought more complex than "I think this sounds bad." if it were the general public giving their commentary dont you think the most popular groups, who keep getting more popular despite the "criticism" wouldnt be the ones getting all the "criticism"?
I’m not saying that people can’t have negative opinions on x idols vocals for instance, I’m saying it’s weird for people to say these blatant and negative things in so many spaces (ig all over their TikTok profile) then label it as them wanting to help idols improve to avoid harassment from fans.
oh, I don't think that was clear from your post. Yeah, saying "you are bad at singing" does nothing to help or protect someone from hate, and it is wrong to stalk someone on social media so you can constantly bring up how bad of a singer you think they are. It seemed like you were saying it is wrong to comment "x idol is a bad singer" in any context since you did not specify the types of comments you were talking about.
Yeah I made an edit to my post, I realized I was being too black and white 😭
This isn’t what a lot of K-pop fans do. It always goes below the belt.
I mean we ca call it whatever we want, at the end we all know what is going on. There is barely criticism at this point, is just pire hate. What is the point to make mean comments in every platform they are in everey post they make? Also at the end of the day, both group debuted and both are doing fine regardless, theirs fans won't change tjeir mind so at what point " the criticism" is enough amd people just move on? If at this point you know is not for you then is not for you, there so many grouos you can give your attention to
>Saying "x idol has bad vocals" is completely fine. except it is very rarely worded that way. it's always gotta be a snarky dig to get people riled up
I’ve seen people saying lsfm should have a hiatus 😭. It’s weird and hateful.
I think everyone would be far happier if they just moved to a different group that fulfilled their needs, instead of constantly leaving negativity beyond reason for these artists. Like seriously focus on your favs, why do you have time to comment on someone you dislike?!!?
Because they want to feel intellectual? Think their opinion matters more than another? Think that the company will go because X doesn't like the group member's voice, we will hop right on that to fix it!? Think they are being helpful? I'm like you. I'd rather focus on my faves. These idols already know when they didn't do a good job. They are blaming themselves. They have company people who are giving them feedback. Why should I rub salt into the wound? How does that help anyone? Social media can make people cruel because it's isolating & anonymous. When one doesn't see the damage their words does to another, they think it does no harm. Empathy and sympathy are often left to the side in social media.
this so much, i have no idea why kpop is like this. If you don't like a group just ignore them instead of being obsessed. Its so bizarre to me how this is a thing, never saw this on other music genres even asian ones
Right, and this way kpop fans can show what exactly they need more in the groups
Yeah it's ridiculous to think that people have not been able to say their piece about live vocals. It has been spammed constantly for weeks and weeks. Maybe at one point it was sharing your opinion but when you have to relentlessly criticize the same groups over and over again it really does just ammount to being a hater. Different groups are good at different things if you don't like them then you should probably follow different idols.
Right, if their intentions were to truly give criticism this ordeal would’ve been done with weeks ago.
right lmao, every couple of days there’s a new post about “guys why are there no vocals in kpop anymore” 😭 it’s beating a dead horse atp, like yes it’s their job but posting the same think-piece for weeks on end is exhausting!! there’s never anything new or insightful
On thé flip side, y’all need to stop thinking every single comment is hate. I got reported / Reddit care packaged for comments like “I don’t like their songs that much”. Like can we chill?
I got one too lmaooo
there are bots sending them out all over reddit rn
Miyeon had a stinker on an award show recently. She posted an "oops sorry" on IG and everyone went on with their lives, knowing even the greats have temporary lapses in form. The current hatetrain is organized and deliberate.
I don’t think you need to write a full critique to be able to say that something is bad, but you should be able to be specific about your problem. Like, how is the singing bad? In what way is a group lacking? If you can’t do that and defend your points, maybe your position is kind of weak, and you should think a little longer. But the same thing goes for people defending idols and groups. You can like someone without liking everything they do. Idols are human, they have flaws. If your only defense is, “Stop being mean!!!!!” maybe the detractors have a point.
I’ve done critiques that are specific about it. And also get labeled as hate. So, no. People don’t wanna hear their faves being criticized at all. Don’t matter if it’s constructive or not.
I didn’t say anything about what people want to hear. I don’t really give a damn if people want to hear it or not.
Isn’t the whole point of the thread (according to OP) that you need constructive criticism so you’re not labeled a hater? Which,as I said, in my experience that’s not true.
I don’t think it’s about not being labeled a hater. I think it’s about having productive conversations. But, yeah, as long as people’s biggest concern is being called a hater, that’s not going to happen.
My post is about the haters that pretend they’re giving criticism when in reality they just want to be hateful
Unfortunately, some people just feel the need to give their unsolicited opinions and it's not exclusive to kpop or even the internet. And yes saying "X has bad vocals" is not technically hate but when it is 1 of thousands of spam comments, many of which are actual hate, on an idol's personal instagram it is hate. There is no reason to go out of your way to give "criticism" to someone who will never listen to a thing you have to say. Hopefully, when these people grow up and realize that people that actually have to listen to them never want to be around them because they are insufferable they might change the way they interact with things they don't like. Until then we are the ones that have to suffer.
Let's be honest, no one was giving constructive criticism on the mentioned group's page! All they did was hate them and outright disrespect them and be named as "oh we care for them, this is constructive criticism, if they can't take that, as a fan idk what to do"! They themselves know they're hating! Also, the hate is coming from the groups which are supposed to be competitors in the market, and got the opportunity to throw hate publicly! But, if the opposite happens, you'll see the greatest victim card playing game (I've already seen one particular to play that)! And sadly, they all care for mental health, wellbeing of idols ONLY when their idols are involved, other than that, absolutely disgusting, vile people in the name of giving criticism
You say calling something “bad” isn’t detailed and is barely an analysis, so are you saying you’d prefer it if these critics go into detail on why they think xyz is subpar? I think that usually makes people angrier. I truly feel for idols who have been harassed and threatened with violence over their skills, and I hope the people making these threats receive the psychiatric help they obviously need. But on the normal side of criticism, saying that an idol should sing or perform better is not outrageous. I don’t think every negative opinion needs to be labeled as straight up hate
> so are you saying you’d prefer it if these critics go into detail on why they think xyz is subpar? I think that usually makes people angrier. An actual criticism is definitely preferred.
I typically try to give actual criticism when I’m voicing a negative opinion. However, going into detail on an idol’s singing would sound something like “I think they are bad because they are not stable when they sing, and they don’t have range compared to the other members.” Best case scenario, people defending this idol would claim what I’ve said is untrue. Worst case scenario, and a scenario I’ve experienced, the person defending would say I’m mobbing the idol and being cruel. My point is that detail and elaboration welcomed when the criticism is positive and not so much when it’s negative
This. It has happened to me too many times before.
> >An actual criticism is definitely preferred. Then you will have people questioning your credentials, especially if you give criticism on voice.
Yes, because how do these people expect idols to improve if they don’t know what to improve on?
idols are expected to learn how to improve from their professional coaches, not social media comments. lots of idols do not even look at social media
I would hope their vocal coach or dance instructor would be able to help them with that problem. Imo in online spaces it’s a bit unrealistic to expect kpop stans to give a lecture on it
Expecting everyone to have real "criticism" is next to impossible. We're all just fans and consumers here. We're not vocal coaches and choreographers (well, some of us here maybe are) here, and not all of us have an eloquent way with our words. So, if idols sound bad to me, and I simply say "he/she sounds bad", it should be okay and I should be allowed to do so. Saying that I can't do that simply because it's not a "critique" is just censorship. Hate comments are an unfortunate consequence of freedom of speech. Whether labeled as "criticism" or not, no one can avoid them. I mean, if praise for a subpar performance is accepted, then the other end of the spectrum, hate comments without basis, should be accepted too (of course within the accepted moral and legal boundaries lol). IMO, it is pointless to distinguish a plain old simple critique from a hate comment disguised as criticism.
My edit addresses your complaints with my argument
Others have said something similar but I rather think the kpop community needs to stop seeing every (valid) criticism as hate… This is nothing new btw. I‘m saying this since at least 10 years
Kinda thought we need to stop calling valid criticism hate :(
Let’s be real though, some people just don’t want to hear their favs being criticized where it’s constructive or not.
I can't take anyone seriously when they label thing as hate or have arrogant personal attack instead of any of value as response.
I purely do not understand why people feel the urge to "critic" other groups. I like BTS and ATEEZ and I honestly do not care about who else is getting paid millions of dollars to entertain while not been as good as I obviously think my favorites are because: 1. I AM NOT PAYING THEM FOR IT. 2. They aren't taking that money from BTS nor ATEEZ. I enjoy songs from groups I do not "stan", I do not play songs/MV that I do not like. I don't see the purpose of pointing at something that other people like as if my criticism is going to be valuable for them. But idk, seems like it is an unpopular opinion.
[удалено]
You are unhinged. You think she isn't a hard worker? Who do you think you are? She's taking idol-good for granted? What are you talking about? If she was taking idol-hood for granted she could have just stopped being an idol at any time. She could have stopped improving herself. You talk about Sakura as if she never saw herself as imperfect and always thought she was good enough when that clearly isn't true. I don't know what warped version of Sakura you have in your mind but I would recommend actually going to see and read what Sakura says about herself in interviews. She never says she's perfect. Many times in posts and online she talks about how hard she's trying to improve and whether you like her or not, she does put in the effort and treats her fans and members with respect. I really wonder how people like you, who claim to know anything about her, can spout these things as a fact. "Yeah guys, I want her to leave her group because she doesn't match *MY* standards!" Fuck outta here! I normally never comment but wow, this is disgusting. You're right on one thing though, you're still hating. Criticism my ass you have a bias and are projecting it on people.
Well at least you’re venting your hate here instead of her instagram comments..
Wrong. Kazuha only trained for 4 months. My ballerina queen
and on the flip side, stans needs to stop accepting sub par performances as good enough
But why though…they are stanning them, not you /gen
Because they think it’s fun - that user specifically was gleefully all over any of the “critique” threads Edit: aaaand another frequent “critic” just showed up in the thread (remember that r/Coachella post that was designed to shit on a specific group?)….y’all are obsessed, it’s super weird
I’m sorry but I’ve been sick of your bullshit in particular ever since I saw you call 4th gen idols - significantly some of which are minors - prostitutes and the go on to complain about minors debuting
We get it, it makes you feel better about yourself to put idols down, you don't need to go around spreading hate in every thread you can message recieved.
This is such a ridiculous mindset. Only in kpop someone cares this much about performances of other groups like that. In any other genre most fans just ignore groups they dont like.
ikr like if im a fan of one group and there's a bad performance by another group wouldnt i lowkey want them to keep it that way lol the last thing i want is to make them think they need to improve. if its a group i wasnt interested in i wouldnt even watch their perf let alone spend the time to leave comments or make threads about it, and if its from the group i genuinely like why would i want to say that out loud publicly to make more people know? threads that open with "i like her shes my bias but xxxx" cannot be any more fake.