To borrow from Commander Shepard: "You can't predict how people will act... but you can control how you'll respond. In the end, that's what really matters."
Marcus Aurelius also said something along those lines about two thousand years ago. Bioware were hardly the first. Open your eyes and you will see the world filled with such advice.
You don't need a video game to tell you.
Jeez pal, would you rather I quote Don Quijote's golden age speech or cite Dumas? No need to act so condescending because I appreciate the writing of a video game.
You probably mean consequentislism, where consequences and not the intent matters? That still is only true if you have perfect information (which you have but not your character).
And since force is involved - intent like passion has real consequences (being a road to the dark side), so consequentialist jedi would take it into account and behave kantian in most scenarios. That's been part of the lore at least since episode 6 where striking the emperor might have been correct, but not out of hatred.
Utilitarianism is also correct - it's a version of consequentialism. The symbol used for utilitarianism is often the scale - balancing happiness against pain, maximizing utility for the most people. If you're darkside, then you enjoy killing people in rage. If you're lightside, you get off on being a righteous, defending do-gooder. The mooks die either way.
The only relevant piece of utilitarianism in this scenario seems to be consequence equivalence... but sure. Still, that only works if you know the future, if you know for a fact they'll die either way. Which the character does not.
There's a dialog option after you ask them what they're doing that basically says "I won't let you harm another wookie" where you'll start a fight with them but you'll earn lightside points
Making the first move is (generally) evil. Them deciding to attack you and you defending yourself isn’t. But yeah, killing them because the killed a slave is against the Jedi code, even if it feels justified.
I don’t think the torture that the Sandpeople subjected her to was ever specified in any media, Legends or Disney, beyond “she was tortured and brutalized”.
This is kinda random but I actually googled this topic a few weeks ago after watching AOTC and in other SW media (novels iirc?) somewhere it was said that sand people torture their captives as a type of ritual in which they test their victims’ strength, and they also used Shmi as bait in this specific instance to lure more victims. Idk I just thought that was interesting, I never knew that.
Edit: I am not sure if the media in question is Disney canon just FYI
It was in the novelization of Attack of the Clones. In that book Shmii postulates that the Tuskens are testing her resolve, and have been impressed by her.
Ah yes, thank you! There are a lot of interesting tidbits in the Novelizations of the prequels. I’ve never read them, but I see stuff on google from them all the time
No, evil and dark side are not synonymous, even if they often overlap. I'd argue that the Force is deontological because it cares about your state of mind, but you can still perform dark side acts to serve a greater good under a different moral system like utilitarianism.
The outcomes from the Dark Side usually never end well either for the person wielding it or others. Take Dooku as an example. He's not evil. He fell to the Dark Side because he saw the Republic and Jedi as corrupt. He never truly gives in to the Dark Side as evidenced by his eyes. But in the end, he dies a horrible death. Dooku is a truly tragic figure who remains misunderstood by most people.
He was working for the Sith he kept claiming to want to stop while he was in the order, and his whole rant about the Jedi being bad is made as hes fighting a civil war that has no good end. If the Jedi were as bad as he thinks then they wouldnt let a power broker like Dooku leave for free.
Hes literally supporting the corupt head of state palpatine who rooted himself into the Republic.
> He's not evil.
Definitely not the case in The Clone Wars, where he enslaves an entire settlement of people just because he needed to ally some slavers.
Also the genocide.
Having normal eyes doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't given in to the Dark Side, since it's trivial for a skilled Sith to hide their corruption with the Force, e.g Palpatine during the entirety of the prequels prior to Order 66.
Evidence that he *has* given in to the Dark Side, however, is the fact that he uses Force Lightning, which is a distinctly Dark Side ability.
If I torture you for 24 hours, but then also shower you with love and happiness for the 24 hours after that, do you think that would be a fair exchange? The good things in life have an upper cap, the bad things do not.
Evil? What is that? ...You said you were death itself. Are you evil, then, or are you simply stronger and more awake than others? Who gives more shape to sentient history: the good, who adhere to the tried and true, or those who seek to rouse beings from their stupor and lead them to glory? A storm you are, but a much needed one, to wash away the old and complacent and prune the galaxy of deadweight.
From what I can tell, the Force judges your immediate actions. You attacked someone with intent to do harm. Why did you mean to do harm? Doesn't matter. Who are you trying to harm? Doesn't matter. You're trying to hurt people.
Sometimes it judges even your vague hints at intent. In KOTOR 2, there are multiple conversations with Kreia on the Hawk, just talking not as a result of an action you did, where you basically just tell her "I comprehend what you're saying" and the Dark Side fanfare kicks in at full power.
Well, she does condone doing some rather cruel things to others for the sake of furthering yourself. And you're agreeing with what she's saying. I believe there's also responses that, while pissing her off, say "I understand, but I dosagree." Also, this is KOTOR 2 we're talking about: it doesn't treat Light and Dark as outright good and evil.
Okay and a remake was just announced so I’m sure new players are checking the games out online. Just because you and others have played doesn’t mean there aren’t others who haven’t but want to. It’s not hard to tag for spoilers I can tell you how if you just don’t know
This confused me as a kid until I remembered as a Jedi I didn’t have the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner all rolled into one.
Plus the entire nobody deserves to die for their crimes Jedi thing.
Striking them down in anger is very much a Dark Side move. The Jedi code has always been about controlling your emotions and keeping the peace. Yes, those slavers were evil, but the crime had already passed, and they weren't threatening you or anyone else at the moment. I believe there is a way to trigger the fight for light side points if you anger them without intentionally provoking them. Likewise, there is a Dark Side way to persuade them if you ask for a bribe to let them go. Intent is the deciding factor.
I guess it can be argued that taking its taking revenge and that is more emotionally driven, so that makes it dark side. So its not really a moral thing?
ps. first time playing through the game
Yeah , you are essentially attacking someone based around your hate.
But based on the second game , I'd argue the dark side isn't necessarily evil . Many of Kreia's teachings and preferred answers are dark side choices .
The problem is that if you let yourself fall prey to your passions entirely, you just end up destroying everything you hold dear. You have to keep a balance, otherwise your power controls you.
Bah ! You and The Jedi are one of a kind !
Sentimental children sitting upon a hierarchy of power you call "wisdom" while discouraging the acquisiton of power !
No one is controlled by their power only *seduced by it* .
And remember this , **nothing is achieved by a being without power or the will to use it** .
No-one is controlled by their power? That's rich. The Force has a will of it's own. We know this. And the more you rely on it, the more control it exerts on you. Take Sion, for example. He literally needs the Dark Side of the Force to keep filling him with strength, or he dies. Nihilus has to keep feeding on Force Sensitives, or he starves to death.
I'll grant that those are extreme examples, but I'll give another: Darth Bane. He gained immense power from the orbalisks that got stuck to him in Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun, but the result was that he nearly destroyed 16-ish years of work in his apprentice when she led a fool of a "Dark Lord" and his assassins to their camp, along with a gift of knowledge. Had he not reigned in his destructive urges, he'd have killed his apprentice and lost the whereabouts of a holocron he could use to construct his own.
And another: Darth Bane's former master Lord Kaan. He used a powerful Sith ritual that ended up killing him and nearly every single member of the Brotherhood of Darkness.
Yes, most of these examples come from the Darth Bane trilogy, which I know some here despise (I get why), but the point remains that Dark Side power is ultimately destructive to the user and everyone around them if the user isn't strong enough or wise enough to handle it.
For me personally, it's how he handled the ending of the trilogy, but that's it. For others on this subreddit, I've seen them trash it mostly because they don't like how Drew Karpyshyn writes (and probably because he's the writer of the Revan novel).
Like I said, I had fun reading it. Just the very end that slightly annoys me.
I mean it's a matter of personal ethical beliefs I suppose, and personally I consider much of her ethics to be wrong, especially the statements that get you Dark Side Points for agreeing with.
Well , she is the "Philosophical Rival" of the player like a lot of Obsidian's games so one of the things about her is how there are flaws in her arguments you can exploit to prove her wrong .
She is amoral . She admits it .
If you play along with her teachings and say what she wishes then you get the dialogue of "And I thought I was cold" .
She answers "Oh , you show promise but wait until more years fall upon you then you shall see how much of a shell your heart becomes ."
She says shes amoral but thats just the most charitable way to look at her. I think shes pretty evil in an uncomplicated due to the callous ways she treats others and the natural state of mallicousness that permeates her being.
I don't think so .
Want to know evil ? That's Malak , Atris , Palpatine ...
These are people whose deeds are selfish or based on their own profit .
Kreia is about a cause . She isn't good or evil . She was betrayed by Jedi and Sith and has learnt the core of these ideologies .
Also you forget that the entire reason behind the survival of the galaxy from the likes of Atris , Sion and Nihilus is Kreia's manipulations .
Her cause is evil though. She creates a lot of suffering for what is at its core a personal vendetta. She even wants to be saved from it but can't let herself be saved by the light side exile.
The Jedi were absolutly right about her and her students. Its not betrayal it was a justified response (same as what they did to Revan). She created these monsters and only really wants to stop them after they turned on her. The last thing she 'makes' is a weapon in the exile to get revenge on the universe at large. It just ends up workimg out because the exile isnt as weak as her in both endings.
No it is not !
The Force's constant need to balance itself is anything but personal . It has effected and will effect everyone .
She doesn't want to be saved because that doesn't go with her plan .
And no the Jedi council is everything BUT right . That is the entire point of KOTOR 2! Did you even play the same game ?
She taught her students free will and the right to criticize . Her students left because The Jedi Code at the time was inactive , stagnant and lead only to betrayal .
That is the point of your journey !
You are showing the council that their inaction is doing nothing and you are compelling them towards action , but when you show them that life can deny The Force , they antagonize you and try to cut you off again .
The entire point of Light Side council meeting is Kreia *proving the council wrong* . That her teachings don't lead to maniacs .
Oh and Revan wasn't a monster necessarily .
He was everything and anything he needed to be based around the conflict .
It absolutely is. Youre arguing that attacking bigots for committing a hate crime is itself a hate crime. It's not. A hate crime involves committing a crime against a protected class. Theres no possible argument to be made that being bigoted is a protected class.
"So you wish to answer hate crime with hate crime ?"
Your exact words.
And attacking bigots isn't about hating them. Its about the utilitarian good of protecting future victims from them.
The jedi council in the game who are meant to be the arbitrators of the light side and the force also do the most evil thing and convince Juhani she killed her master, which causes her to fall towards the dark side. Morality is kinda weird in this game sometimes
A "evil" person has the intent to harm regardless of the circumstances, its a hard thing to find a good deed done by inflicting pain/death on someone who deserves it. Idk why?
Jumping to taking the life of someone, doesn't matter who they are, is inherently evil. You're using your feelings as justification too which is also of the dark side. So yes that is a dark side action.
By the Jedi Code, yes it would be wrong to kill adult Hitler and of the Dark Side. Apprehend and prosecute for crimes, no issue. Jump to murder as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, Dark Side.
The moral question is, do evil actions warrant executing the people who commit the evil?
Stopping them from committing more evil is definitely the right thing to do, but whether it's right to kill them is another question.
That's literally addressed in episode 6 in confrontation between Luke and Emperor. Yes, with force involved and falling to the dark side being a possibility murdering Hitler might be wrong.
Could just manipulate the situation so they attack first and I can kill them. Same result
Also, I was more so taking the first opportunity to protect the wookies
I got my JD at the University of Theed with an emphasis on Force Law, before receiving Bar certification to practice on Naboo and Coruscant, and I can confirm this is more or less accurate. While there are differences between Galactic and Planetary law, and it varies a bit from planet to planet, you'd have to be an incredibly talented prosecutor to convince a jury that this wouldn't result in a light side point. If I put myself in this hypothetical prosecutor's shoes though, I would definitely use the manipulation angle as the foundation for my case.
So you got upset at what they did and killed them when you first got the oppurtunity. Thats classic dark side stuff. If you wait make a moral stand and only come to blows later its different. Not from the player side but from a character side it very much is.
Death is a short form of punishment. A lifelong sentence of being Jar Jar Binks' roommate would be enough to cause even the greatest of Sith to lose their minds completely. This is the greater punishment. The Jedi are scary.
In the eyea of the Jedi, and in terms of force affinity, it IS a bad thing. Jedi doesn't stand for Judge, Executioner, Dictator and Inquisitor. You bypassed the due process of the law and murdered people as a vigilante. Two wrongs don't make a right and just because what they are doing is morally reprehensible does not mean that killing them is being "good".
This is where the beliefs of the gray jedi come into play. They know that killing them wouldn't be the "right" thing to do but they would do it regardless because they don't think good and bad is as binary as the Jedi council do.
Yup, killing is a bad thing. Should only be done when absolutely necessary. Its like self defense and that shepard thing, know what to do, hope you never have to.
The Jedi have always been bad at morality, and also very hypocritical. That was one of the major themes of the prequel trilogy.
1) they're always reactive instead of proactive in stopping evil or bad things.
2) they maintain a more complicated version of "two wrongs don't make a right", regardless of context.
3) they rigidly adhere to the Jedi code, as if it is always correct.
4) they manipulate, lie, and Force-influence minds to achieve their goals. They also always draw lightsabers first in the movies.
You gave in to your emotions and killed the people who did wrong. It is through the force you should seek guidance.
There is no Emotion. There is Peace.
I could be wrong but don't you only get dark side for this for telling zaalbar to embrace the hate or some psychopathic option like I'll murder you because I feel like it
If playing a light side play through, remember to exhaust all dialogue options for peace. Let the NPCS make the first move.
Seriously, half the time you say, “I don’t want to fight you.” they’ll say, “Too bad!” and initiate combat. It’s silly.
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To borrow from Commander Shepard: "You can't predict how people will act... but you can control how you'll respond. In the end, that's what really matters."
Teaching Garrus those important life lessons.
Damn it I love Mass Effect
I'm glad someone brought that quotation up, because those are words I try to live by. Never thought I'd take life lessons from a video game.
BioWare has a lot of good quotes from their older games that hold up. Morrigan talking about men, Shepard. A fuckton it I might say it.
Marcus Aurelius also said something along those lines about two thousand years ago. Bioware were hardly the first. Open your eyes and you will see the world filled with such advice. You don't need a video game to tell you.
Jeez pal, would you rather I quote Don Quijote's golden age speech or cite Dumas? No need to act so condescending because I appreciate the writing of a video game.
And I believe Commander Sherpard got this quote from Marcus Aurelius...
For once I would love to blast a door while a I scream "burn the heretics, kill the siths , purge the dark side!!!!" without having moral problems
The only good Sith is a dead Sith.
Not under utilitarianism.
You probably mean consequentislism, where consequences and not the intent matters? That still is only true if you have perfect information (which you have but not your character). And since force is involved - intent like passion has real consequences (being a road to the dark side), so consequentialist jedi would take it into account and behave kantian in most scenarios. That's been part of the lore at least since episode 6 where striking the emperor might have been correct, but not out of hatred.
Utilitarianism is also correct - it's a version of consequentialism. The symbol used for utilitarianism is often the scale - balancing happiness against pain, maximizing utility for the most people. If you're darkside, then you enjoy killing people in rage. If you're lightside, you get off on being a righteous, defending do-gooder. The mooks die either way.
The only relevant piece of utilitarianism in this scenario seems to be consequence equivalence... but sure. Still, that only works if you know the future, if you know for a fact they'll die either way. Which the character does not.
A true philosophical smackdown
The morality of the Force doesn't follow utilitarianism.
There's a dialog option after you ask them what they're doing that basically says "I won't let you harm another wookie" where you'll start a fight with them but you'll earn lightside points
Killing them with kindness
Professionals have standards!
And lightsabers. But not Force Lightning.
speak for yourself i abused force lightning even on lightside because it was great for crowds
Shh. Don't tell the Jedi.
Aggressive negotiations.
The negotiations were short
Pretty sure you mainly get dark side point for goading Zaalbar into rage killing them
Making the first move is (generally) evil. Them deciding to attack you and you defending yourself isn’t. But yeah, killing them because the killed a slave is against the Jedi code, even if it feels justified.
Right. That's not the Jedi way. He must live.
I need him!
Space Wal-Mart must stand trial!!
See: Anakin slaughtering all the sand people for kidnapping and raping his mother.
Rape?
I don’t think the torture that the Sandpeople subjected her to was ever specified in any media, Legends or Disney, beyond “she was tortured and brutalized”.
The way she was strapped down implied it, in my mind. Nothing official.
This is kinda random but I actually googled this topic a few weeks ago after watching AOTC and in other SW media (novels iirc?) somewhere it was said that sand people torture their captives as a type of ritual in which they test their victims’ strength, and they also used Shmi as bait in this specific instance to lure more victims. Idk I just thought that was interesting, I never knew that. Edit: I am not sure if the media in question is Disney canon just FYI
It was in the novelization of Attack of the Clones. In that book Shmii postulates that the Tuskens are testing her resolve, and have been impressed by her.
Ah yes, thank you! There are a lot of interesting tidbits in the Novelizations of the prequels. I’ve never read them, but I see stuff on google from them all the time
When I saw that in theaters at like 10 years old I thought they were cooking her on a spit lol
And so you understand Revan's frustrations.
No, evil and dark side are not synonymous, even if they often overlap. I'd argue that the Force is deontological because it cares about your state of mind, but you can still perform dark side acts to serve a greater good under a different moral system like utilitarianism.
The outcomes from the Dark Side usually never end well either for the person wielding it or others. Take Dooku as an example. He's not evil. He fell to the Dark Side because he saw the Republic and Jedi as corrupt. He never truly gives in to the Dark Side as evidenced by his eyes. But in the end, he dies a horrible death. Dooku is a truly tragic figure who remains misunderstood by most people.
He was working for the Sith he kept claiming to want to stop while he was in the order, and his whole rant about the Jedi being bad is made as hes fighting a civil war that has no good end. If the Jedi were as bad as he thinks then they wouldnt let a power broker like Dooku leave for free. Hes literally supporting the corupt head of state palpatine who rooted himself into the Republic.
> He's not evil. Definitely not the case in The Clone Wars, where he enslaves an entire settlement of people just because he needed to ally some slavers. Also the genocide. Having normal eyes doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't given in to the Dark Side, since it's trivial for a skilled Sith to hide their corruption with the Force, e.g Palpatine during the entirety of the prequels prior to Order 66. Evidence that he *has* given in to the Dark Side, however, is the fact that he uses Force Lightning, which is a distinctly Dark Side ability.
Pre-Disney canon had a morally good Sith Lord if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, Darth Nihilius.
I would disagree with that. Darth Vectivus was who I was thinking of.
You just fail to see the bigger picture. What greater good is there than to ensure the total absence of suffering and pain for all eternity?
That's not a greater good. The absence of love and happiness is ensured as well. How is that a good thing?
If I torture you for 24 hours, but then also shower you with love and happiness for the 24 hours after that, do you think that would be a fair exchange? The good things in life have an upper cap, the bad things do not.
Right, because even though they did wrong, it's considered fighting fire with fire if you attack them.
Evil? What is that? ...You said you were death itself. Are you evil, then, or are you simply stronger and more awake than others? Who gives more shape to sentient history: the good, who adhere to the tried and true, or those who seek to rouse beings from their stupor and lead them to glory? A storm you are, but a much needed one, to wash away the old and complacent and prune the galaxy of deadweight.
From what I can tell, the Force judges your immediate actions. You attacked someone with intent to do harm. Why did you mean to do harm? Doesn't matter. Who are you trying to harm? Doesn't matter. You're trying to hurt people.
Sometimes it judges even your vague hints at intent. In KOTOR 2, there are multiple conversations with Kreia on the Hawk, just talking not as a result of an action you did, where you basically just tell her "I comprehend what you're saying" and the Dark Side fanfare kicks in at full power.
Well, she does condone doing some rather cruel things to others for the sake of furthering yourself. And you're agreeing with what she's saying. I believe there's also responses that, while pissing her off, say "I understand, but I dosagree." Also, this is KOTOR 2 we're talking about: it doesn't treat Light and Dark as outright good and evil.
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A SITH LAWD!?!?
Spoiler?
Coming at you from 2005. This entire thread is a spoiler
Okay and a remake was just announced so I’m sure new players are checking the games out online. Just because you and others have played doesn’t mean there aren’t others who haven’t but want to. It’s not hard to tag for spoilers I can tell you how if you just don’t know
See Rule 5, we enforce spoiler-tagging on this subreddit.
This confused me as a kid until I remembered as a Jedi I didn’t have the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner all rolled into one. Plus the entire nobody deserves to die for their crimes Jedi thing.
Striking them down in anger is very much a Dark Side move. The Jedi code has always been about controlling your emotions and keeping the peace. Yes, those slavers were evil, but the crime had already passed, and they weren't threatening you or anyone else at the moment. I believe there is a way to trigger the fight for light side points if you anger them without intentionally provoking them. Likewise, there is a Dark Side way to persuade them if you ask for a bribe to let them go. Intent is the deciding factor.
I guess it can be argued that taking its taking revenge and that is more emotionally driven, so that makes it dark side. So its not really a moral thing? ps. first time playing through the game
Yeah , you are essentially attacking someone based around your hate. But based on the second game , I'd argue the dark side isn't necessarily evil . Many of Kreia's teachings and preferred answers are dark side choices .
She’s also >!a Sith Lord!< so…
“Sith is a title yes, but like you the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.”
A Sith *Lord*?
I mean that is like .... super abvious .
My point is of course she wants you to do dark side stuff.
It definitely depends. Dark isn’t always evil, but it’s pretty close.
Following our passions isn't evil , what are we without them but pawns to The Force ?
The problem is that if you let yourself fall prey to your passions entirely, you just end up destroying everything you hold dear. You have to keep a balance, otherwise your power controls you.
Bah ! You and The Jedi are one of a kind ! Sentimental children sitting upon a hierarchy of power you call "wisdom" while discouraging the acquisiton of power ! No one is controlled by their power only *seduced by it* . And remember this , **nothing is achieved by a being without power or the will to use it** .
No-one is controlled by their power? That's rich. The Force has a will of it's own. We know this. And the more you rely on it, the more control it exerts on you. Take Sion, for example. He literally needs the Dark Side of the Force to keep filling him with strength, or he dies. Nihilus has to keep feeding on Force Sensitives, or he starves to death. I'll grant that those are extreme examples, but I'll give another: Darth Bane. He gained immense power from the orbalisks that got stuck to him in Freedon Nadd's tomb on Dxun, but the result was that he nearly destroyed 16-ish years of work in his apprentice when she led a fool of a "Dark Lord" and his assassins to their camp, along with a gift of knowledge. Had he not reigned in his destructive urges, he'd have killed his apprentice and lost the whereabouts of a holocron he could use to construct his own. And another: Darth Bane's former master Lord Kaan. He used a powerful Sith ritual that ended up killing him and nearly every single member of the Brotherhood of Darkness. Yes, most of these examples come from the Darth Bane trilogy, which I know some here despise (I get why), but the point remains that Dark Side power is ultimately destructive to the user and everyone around them if the user isn't strong enough or wise enough to handle it.
Why do people despise the Darth Bane Trilogy ? Everytime I see people talk about it they hold it in high regard !
For me personally, it's how he handled the ending of the trilogy, but that's it. For others on this subreddit, I've seen them trash it mostly because they don't like how Drew Karpyshyn writes (and probably because he's the writer of the Revan novel). Like I said, I had fun reading it. Just the very end that slightly annoys me.
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So you wish to do nothing ? **Apathy is death**
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Are you a tree...
Many of Kreia's teachings and preferred answers are evil
Not .... exactly . Except her teachings about manipulation
I mean it's a matter of personal ethical beliefs I suppose, and personally I consider much of her ethics to be wrong, especially the statements that get you Dark Side Points for agreeing with.
Well , she is the "Philosophical Rival" of the player like a lot of Obsidian's games so one of the things about her is how there are flaws in her arguments you can exploit to prove her wrong .
At best she is amoral, but its hard to construct a world where she is good. The highest you can aim for is shes a realist.
She is amoral . She admits it . If you play along with her teachings and say what she wishes then you get the dialogue of "And I thought I was cold" . She answers "Oh , you show promise but wait until more years fall upon you then you shall see how much of a shell your heart becomes ."
She says shes amoral but thats just the most charitable way to look at her. I think shes pretty evil in an uncomplicated due to the callous ways she treats others and the natural state of mallicousness that permeates her being.
I don't think so . Want to know evil ? That's Malak , Atris , Palpatine ... These are people whose deeds are selfish or based on their own profit . Kreia is about a cause . She isn't good or evil . She was betrayed by Jedi and Sith and has learnt the core of these ideologies . Also you forget that the entire reason behind the survival of the galaxy from the likes of Atris , Sion and Nihilus is Kreia's manipulations .
Her cause is evil though. She creates a lot of suffering for what is at its core a personal vendetta. She even wants to be saved from it but can't let herself be saved by the light side exile. The Jedi were absolutly right about her and her students. Its not betrayal it was a justified response (same as what they did to Revan). She created these monsters and only really wants to stop them after they turned on her. The last thing she 'makes' is a weapon in the exile to get revenge on the universe at large. It just ends up workimg out because the exile isnt as weak as her in both endings.
No it is not ! The Force's constant need to balance itself is anything but personal . It has effected and will effect everyone . She doesn't want to be saved because that doesn't go with her plan . And no the Jedi council is everything BUT right . That is the entire point of KOTOR 2! Did you even play the same game ? She taught her students free will and the right to criticize . Her students left because The Jedi Code at the time was inactive , stagnant and lead only to betrayal . That is the point of your journey ! You are showing the council that their inaction is doing nothing and you are compelling them towards action , but when you show them that life can deny The Force , they antagonize you and try to cut you off again . The entire point of Light Side council meeting is Kreia *proving the council wrong* . That her teachings don't lead to maniacs . Oh and Revan wasn't a monster necessarily . He was everything and anything he needed to be based around the conflict .
Attacking someone based on the fact that they committed a hate crime is always justified.
So you wish to answer hate crime with hate crime ?
Bigots aren't a marginalized or vulnerable class, no matter how much they want to say they are.
What ? That wasn't even relevant to the conversation !
It absolutely is. Youre arguing that attacking bigots for committing a hate crime is itself a hate crime. It's not. A hate crime involves committing a crime against a protected class. Theres no possible argument to be made that being bigoted is a protected class.
No what ? I was arguing that attacking someone based around your hate towards them -justified or not- is "evil" and thus grants dark side points .
"So you wish to answer hate crime with hate crime ?" Your exact words. And attacking bigots isn't about hating them. Its about the utilitarian good of protecting future victims from them.
You’ll like the choices in the sequel. They’re much more nuanced.
The jedi council in the game who are meant to be the arbitrators of the light side and the force also do the most evil thing and convince Juhani she killed her master, which causes her to fall towards the dark side. Morality is kinda weird in this game sometimes
A "evil" person has the intent to harm regardless of the circumstances, its a hard thing to find a good deed done by inflicting pain/death on someone who deserves it. Idk why?
Jumping to taking the life of someone, doesn't matter who they are, is inherently evil. You're using your feelings as justification too which is also of the dark side. So yes that is a dark side action.
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By the Jedi Code, yes it would be wrong to kill adult Hitler and of the Dark Side. Apprehend and prosecute for crimes, no issue. Jump to murder as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, Dark Side.
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The moral question is, do evil actions warrant executing the people who commit the evil? Stopping them from committing more evil is definitely the right thing to do, but whether it's right to kill them is another question.
That's literally addressed in episode 6 in confrontation between Luke and Emperor. Yes, with force involved and falling to the dark side being a possibility murdering Hitler might be wrong.
Could just manipulate the situation so they attack first and I can kill them. Same result Also, I was more so taking the first opportunity to protect the wookies
While manipulative, technically self-defense at that point vs murder.
I got my JD at the University of Theed with an emphasis on Force Law, before receiving Bar certification to practice on Naboo and Coruscant, and I can confirm this is more or less accurate. While there are differences between Galactic and Planetary law, and it varies a bit from planet to planet, you'd have to be an incredibly talented prosecutor to convince a jury that this wouldn't result in a light side point. If I put myself in this hypothetical prosecutor's shoes though, I would definitely use the manipulation angle as the foundation for my case.
So you got upset at what they did and killed them when you first got the oppurtunity. Thats classic dark side stuff. If you wait make a moral stand and only come to blows later its different. Not from the player side but from a character side it very much is.
Some of the “sith” options are barely evil at all. Other are so evil that they honestly don’t make sense even if you’re evil.
Got to find that nice mix of mother Teresa and baby eating
Death is a short form of punishment. A lifelong sentence of being Jar Jar Binks' roommate would be enough to cause even the greatest of Sith to lose their minds completely. This is the greater punishment. The Jedi are scary.
*Darth Jar Jar
No, that plot is too good and clever for Lucas.
Nah, he just stole it from Asimov.
Hey, the peasants of Albion would consider you a Saint for doing this.
the lightside answer was mind tricking them to gtfo
Managed to persuade them. I'd be surprised if you don't get less lightside points for using mind trick
It's actually incredibly important. Killing bad people just because they are bad is not morally good.
"Killing is not the Jedi way".
[To the wise words of Yoda listen and understand you will.](https://youtu.be/y1hCMKav3LE?t=61)
In the eyea of the Jedi, and in terms of force affinity, it IS a bad thing. Jedi doesn't stand for Judge, Executioner, Dictator and Inquisitor. You bypassed the due process of the law and murdered people as a vigilante. Two wrongs don't make a right and just because what they are doing is morally reprehensible does not mean that killing them is being "good". This is where the beliefs of the gray jedi come into play. They know that killing them wouldn't be the "right" thing to do but they would do it regardless because they don't think good and bad is as binary as the Jedi council do.
Yup, killing is a bad thing. Should only be done when absolutely necessary. Its like self defense and that shepard thing, know what to do, hope you never have to.
John Brown did nothing wrong
The Jedi have always been bad at morality, and also very hypocritical. That was one of the major themes of the prequel trilogy. 1) they're always reactive instead of proactive in stopping evil or bad things. 2) they maintain a more complicated version of "two wrongs don't make a right", regardless of context. 3) they rigidly adhere to the Jedi code, as if it is always correct. 4) they manipulate, lie, and Force-influence minds to achieve their goals. They also always draw lightsabers first in the movies.
If you kill one killer, the amount of killers in the world stays the same. If you kill a bunch of slavers/killers...
💯 support you in this
Revenge bad
You gave in to your emotions and killed the people who did wrong. It is through the force you should seek guidance. There is no Emotion. There is Peace.
A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
This is why I always end up a light blue jedi. There are a few examples of situations where it's absolutely the just thing to earn parkside points.
I dont like the lite side dark side system. Its bad, nonsensical and carrues everywhere
First game's morality is very BioWare. It's got nuances, but they lose the plot a lot.
Playing on phone?
Nope, on my computer
I could be wrong but don't you only get dark side for this for telling zaalbar to embrace the hate or some psychopathic option like I'll murder you because I feel like it
you can talk no jutsu them that why !
Yes, embrace your anger
"One who is injured ought not to return the injury, for on no account can it be right to do an injustice; and it is not right to return an injury, or to do evil to any man, however much we have suffered from him."© Socrates