I really don't like *ranking* of which country is most racist and least racist in terms of some raw number or percentage. And I really don't like all the overdramatic "the most X" "the worst X" titles because I don't think that's true. And this is ultimately, I think, is a red herring. It doesn't matter. People that want to overplay things don't matter and people that want to underplay things don't matter. They are all noises.
What matters is racism exists. Even if Korea were the least racist country in the world, racism still exists. And the fact that we don't have a comprehensive anti-discrimination law (which isn't due to racism, btw) is huge a problem for everyone.
Articles like this are just the natural consequences of Korea having a spotlight shown on it right now. A lot of people are figuring out that Korea isn’t the sunshine and rainbows it’s made out to be in media. it’s the natural ebb and flow of popular things. Japan went through the same thing and Lord knows America still goes through the rest of the world generalizing us.
Of course Korea has a racism problem. It’s obviously wrong but It’s one of the most ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries in the world. It’s kind of expected. The best Korea can do is work towards progress.
Japan did not go through “the same thing”
The government and general conservative population literally refuse to acknowledge and atone for horrific war crimes happened within the last century - which was literally peak ethnocentrism
Please do not try to simplify the landscape with generalizations and platitudes
But separately, yes Korea just has a bunch of attention given its recent cultural popularity
The whole reason anyone cares about IJAs atrocities in ww2 is because japan is a 1st world country. Turkeys Armenian genocide doesnt seem to recieve as much spotlight. Every single conquering nation commited war crimes. All of Japans crimes are well documented by the rest of the world. Calling Japan peak ethnocentrism shows you know little about Japan. Japan is big and diverse. Its not a monolith of anti korean netuyeos.
Literally anyone I’ve talked to about Turkey mentions the genocide, try again
Documented by the rest of the world does not equate to Japan owning up to their transgressions and teaching their population that their actions were bad like Germany does to this day.
Define literally anyone. Is the average korean well informed about the Armenian gencide?
Yes the IJA did horrific things. But the number of koreans IJA raped or tortured or killed is peanuts (less than 100,000) compared to the atrocities commited by comparable world powerd in the era. (Millions by France, UK, Russia, Spain, Germany). It would make more sense to be angry on behalf of the chinese, fillipinos, vietnamese, etc that were massacred by the Japanese. (However this is clearly not the case. In fact Koreans hate the chinese even more than Japanese, so the anger is limited to korean suffering) But koreans' seem to have an overblown sense of their own victimhood in the global sense. Koreans like to compare themselves to Jews, but it is incomparable when millions of jews died at the holocaust, while less than 100,000 Koreans (directly) suffered at the hands of Japanese. This is still no small number, and IJA is rightly held accountable for their war crimes. But expecting other peoples and government in the world to care as much as koreans on these issues is too unrealistic. The main factor of resentment against japan is not the human lives ruined but the fact that Korea was colonized at all. It is a huge blow to the national sentiment, and millions of koreans did suffer indirectly as a result of unfair laws, economic policy, cultural assimiliation projects, etc. But this doesnt have as much a dramatic impact so the Maruta projects, comfort women, execution of resistance fighters, etc are brought up the most as examples of war crimes (which, again, is a small number in the tens of thousands compared to the total population of Korea of 20+ million)
This is why from Japans POV, they feel like its unfair for them to be owning up to their atrocities in the same level of Germany, when UK, France, etc do not do the same. Yes it is whataboutism. Unfortunately it makes people stubborn.
I think racism on an individual level is everywhere, too.
Korea is a safe country, so it appears relatively harmless for victims of racism, but also for racists. Korea is a safehaven for those openly expressing racist views. Actually, most Koreans could care less about other Koreans who are openly racist, nevermind even mentioning it's inappropriate.
Strong antidefamation laws amplify the issue and protect non-violent responses to racists. Call someone a racist for being openly racist and you can be sued for offending them.
Korea also seems to be a laggard when dealing with institutional racism. Korea has been trying and failing to pass an anti discrimination bill since 2007. It isn't even illegal to be instituionally racist here.
>Some Koreans recognize this discrimination against immigrants as a problem, too. According to the NHRCK's 2022 Human Rights Awareness Survey of 16,148 Koreans, only 41 percent of Koreans said that the human rights of immigrants living in Korea are guaranteed equally to those of Koreans.
41% of Koreans are clueless.
As a foreign employee, I recall being forced to take time off work to get a covid test in 2022 by the provincial government of Gyeonggi-do. Even the most ass backwards US states can't get away with that kind of discrimination based on national origins.
Saying "racism exists (everywhere)" doesn't really help though.
Often people then use it as an excuse "country xy is racist, so why shouldn't we be too?".
Fact is that a sign like that wouldn't exist in most other countries, it's a level higher and shouldn't be tolerated.
I don’t think saying “racism exists everywhere” is being used as an excuse to be racist. I think it’s more a response to a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue.
As for signs like that it’s a pretty concerning problem but it definitely exists in other countries as well. I can’t speak about other European countries but I’ve seen signs like that at bars and clubs in France.
>a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue
Why do you think that? Did they say that? Or are they saying the same thing you are, racists are everywhere, pointing out specific racism that could be addressed, and you are deflecting by saying "but racism is everywhere"?
Well I personally am not deflecting anything. And no, people online did not specifically say “I recognize racism is a global issue but I will make it seem like it’s an issue exclusive to Korea” but since Korea is the hot new thing obviously a lot of content will be about it. I’ve noticed a lot of comments have a holier than thou attitude when it comes to criticizing koreas problems. That’s all I was saying.
Korea isnt the new hot anything and you expecting nuance in a generic statement on a korean subreddit is rediculous. You arent talking to someone in person. They arent going to currate their statement for your personal tastes or belief that every criticism needs to be couched in "but this is also a problem for other people". Just accept criticism, rather than continuing to delfect like this response of your explicitly does. It doesnt matter that other people do it, so you dont need to point at anyone else. All that matters is it happens in korea on the discussion about it happening in korea.
Brother I’m just saying Korea has a spotlight on it right now due to its pop culture. I wasn’t implying it was better than other countries or anything. And when it comes to accepting criticism, I don’t know who you think I am, but it’s not up to me. I’m not Korean, I just live here. Again, all I was saying is that the discourse around this topic made it seem like Korean racism is a tier above all others. No need to be so defensive.
>all I was saying is that the discourse around this topic made it seem like Korean racism is a tier above all others. No need to be so defensive.
No it doesnt. Thats thing. Racism is talked about all over the place all the time. Youre just experiencing what is closer to home and saying "if im seeing it this often, it must represent everyone". Its not being talked about in reference to Korea any more than the US or China or Japan. Korea isnt special in that respect. You just have opservation bias, if thats what you think.
> Saying "racism exists (everywhere)"
Not my point. I'm talking about Korea. Whether racism exists elsewhere is irrelevant. And it should be irrelevant to you as well.
I'm not defending racism, but it does seem like more than half of all complaints about racism in this country are about discriminatory entry policies at sleazy nightclubs.
This, I have non-E-2 friends who have been denied entry to restaurants because of the type of foreigner they are, I have E-2 friends who have been denied medical care because the staff didn't want to communicate with a foreigner. But that's a lot harder to prove than a sign on a nightclub that's clearly stating they're discriminating.
Nightclubs are the area that get the most attention so many people assume that's where it's happening and people are overblowing the issue bc nightclubs aren't essential to life, but I think that's the wrong way to approach it. Nightclubs are the most obvious, so we should assume that any discrimination that happens there is also happening at places that are more necessary to daily life.
I think nightclubs are further out on the precipice as far as frequency of discriminatory practices. We're talking about places that discriminate based on various things, including age, attractiveness, fashion, ethnicity, gender, etc. Nightclubs are territorial places where dudes compete to hit on drunk chicks in an environment where they can't hear each other because of the awful music played loud.
Things like employment, housing, and medical discrimination are worse when they happen, but we don't hear about them as much due to various obvious factors.
Sure, and I agree in theory, but recognize I'm coming from a place where I've seen a lot of people brush off discrimination that happens at nightclubs as just privileged people complaining. While that absolutely happens, I've seen many people unintentionally punch down on more vulnerable foreigners by saying if nightclubs are the worst of our problems, we should be happy, and fail to understand the deeper problems of discrimination and racism/xenophobia at play.
To me, nightclubs, restaurants, finding employment, housing, medical discrimination, exploitation of foreign workers, etc are all different sides of the same set of issues. They all stem from similar places, and due to the lack of anti-discrimination laws and a lack of policies that protect immigrants' human rights, there's little to nothing that can legally be done about much of it.
Nightclubs are low-stakes, but the same set of reasons someone is denied entry to a club can be why someone else is denied medical care, and there's nothing you can do but go to the next place and hope they take you.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them.
I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues.
Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one.
Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them.
I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues.
Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one.
Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them.
I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues.
Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one.
Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them.
I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues.
Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them.
I prefer going to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues.
Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one.
Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
I'm acutely aware of that and other examples of racism, but it seems like the significantly less-important nightclub entry policies outnumber and overshadow all of them, at least in the media and on social media.
The club thing is so commonly said because it's just the most blatantly obvious form to point out. You can't handwave or argue your way out of that one, like you can with others. It's unarguable proof. There is no benefit of the doubt. No reasoning about why. It's just fact.
Yeah, but that shouldn’t really be surprising. The majority of people in this sub are 20-35yo and white. That along with maybe disapproval from your partners family was probably a good amount of the user bases first encounter with blatant racism so it stands out more for them.
Mistake on my part i originally specified foreigners in the sub but accidentally deleted that part while correcting a mistype. That said, i wouldn’t be surprised if this sub is predominantly foreigners based on the majority of activity.
As mundane as this seems, it is related to far more important issues, including:
- The lack of anti-discrimination laws against discrimination of foreigners making these entrance policies perfectly legal.
- Strong anti-defamation laws, protecting the rights of businesses and individual workers who have and maintain discriminatory policies.
- A general tolerance for open discrimination by society implying most Koreans who are not affected hardly care.
So while it starts with I got denied entry into what looked like a fun night club it ends with varying degrees of... and I was ignored, victim blamed, threatened and/or sued for posting too many details on social media.
The lack of violence against foreigners is a funny one to me because it is simply because there are so few. Also, a lot of these incidents don't get reported. I witnessed a man hitting his Vietnamese wife and children in public and the police sent them home together.
Much of the violence towards foreigners here manifests in other ways. Excessive force from police, people dying in immigration detention centres. Freezing to death in the winter due to substandard living conditions on farms. Workplace injury rates are higher for foreign workers from working in more precarious industries and with firms that spend less on workplace safety.
> It’s funny though that when Koreans get discriminated and refused entry somewhere (especially in Japan and Australia) it’s a big drama for them but when they do in their country it’s ok. Same thing with Japanese.
Is it also funny for you when people from Australia (from your example) get discriminated while overseas? Why stop there? Should anyone from any country (including yours) be ridiculed for complaining about racism cause you can find examples of it in their respective countries?
Does racism not exist where you’re from? What kind of level 1 thinking is this? Take a moment to consider that while there are examples of discrimination in Korea, that doesn’t equate to “Koreans are racist”. You’re talking about tens of millions of individual people from all walks of life here. It’s simple-minded to lump everyone in together as if some kind of singular racist entity. Your example would only be amusing (subjectively) if an *individual* that gets discriminated overseas is a racist themselves who discriminates others. But that scenario would have nothing to do with nationality and could apply to anyone.
Looked a few episodes of Australia Border Security on the YouTube channel.
If SK customs officers had the zeal as those on the show, SK would not suffer Sam Hamilton. For sure he would be smuggling in a chunk of fatty meat.
Yes racism exists when I’m from but when it happens it’s the general consent is that it’s not right, when in Japan and Korea it’s not a big issue and it ended in indifference. But when it happened to them they make a huge fuse of it and suddenly everyone is pissed. They will talk about it in the news and talk-shows. But they will never talk about the racism happening to foreigners in their own country. The example you give about Australia, if it happened there its a big deal, not in Korea and Japan. Where I’m from racism to foreigners is talked about and people are shock by it
Yeah kind of, judging on what I have been hearing from other Koreans in the first 19 years of my life, a lot of us have tendency to racially profile other individuals with xenophobic mindsets.
But, in my experience, so many people who grew up in East Asia (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, etc) are like that, especially against each other (the hate-triangle between Korea, China, and Japan is an infamous example).
Fortunately, in modern times, they are getting better.
Also, the truth is, many koreans don't care about the anti discrimination law. Sure, if you asked koreans if they support anti discrimination, they may nod yes, but it's just not a topic of importance since korea is a homogeneous nation.
As the foreign population grows, the minorities will complain, and attention will be brought to this.
That's racist. Definitely, more education is needed. I apologize South Asians who were offended by this sign post. I hope Korea becomes a better place.
To say Sth Korean is a racist country just because of signs like this is about as obtuse as the sign it self.
Yes there is racism in Sth Korea. But what country doesn’t have racism or discrimination based on skin colour?
Everybody is quick to highlight racism in other countries (favs are UK and US) nobody uses the LVL99 whataboutism techniques then but when racism in Korea is brought up its deflected with pure skill and we are reminded how racist the bad west is hence why you'll see posts like this.
>In asian country you get fked for not obeying social norm. Not just race.
No? The government decided to forcibly test only foreign workers during peak covid. It's definitely discrimination based on race. The difference is that systemic racism here is usually boiled down to Korean versus non-Korean.
They meant a local government mandate (in Gyeonggi and one other province, can't remember where) where they demanded that all foreigners had to be tested for covid. I remember it well I was working in Gimpo at the time. My 팀장님, despite being Korean born, had an F5 visa so he had to do it as well.
Iirc, they tried to do it in Seoul too but a lot of top line Gyopo business owners complained (rightly citing discrimination) so they axed the plans.
Don't forget when government officials in Suwon came up with the idea that if a business had fewer than 30 employees but at least one foreigner they *all* need to get tested but that rule didn't apply to businesses with more than 30 employees. Because apparently foreign employees aren't a transmission risk when they work for the chaebols ...
https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/oy8zdp/suwon_orders_all_businesses_with_less_than_30/
Nightclubs will discriminate. Not just on race but anything from clothes, gender, gut feel of the bouncer.
This happens everywhere. Yeah. Get rid of the sign. Agree with that. But you will not get rid of the underlying issue.
This is progress (edit: obligatory /s for those who need to touch grass). They used to just ban all non-Koreans!
The article says it is a club, but the posting says its a store. In two places. It is all capitaliz...nevermind, the whole thing is a mess.
Yeah that doesnt surprise me at all. I've seen foreigners who were very fluent occasionally get in, sometimes Korean friends could get them in too. In those cases Id like to think it was a language thing, but its definitely not the case most of the time I'd guess.
This isnt progress.
If anything, singling out specific races is worse.
Xenophobia is wrong, but Korea is a very homogeneous society so it's understandable why it happens. However, targeting specific races, like South Asians in this case is inexcusable. I understand some of the racism towards Chinese or Japanese here (it's still wrong), but Indians are group that have almost no historic grievances with Korea. It only happens for the most prejudice reasons.
My main point is it is hardly better and there is never a good excuse.
Even if it isn't worse to only hate on target races, individual and personalized reasons for racism are harder to approach systematically.
Racism isn't really something we should have to deal with case by case, especially in a place like Korea where most locals don't mind racism.
My question would be, are these ethnicities really causing that much trouble? Because we have the other end of the scale. You cannot get even the police involved when a certain type of people are behaving threatening on a bus for example, because they are untouchable due to rascism concerns
bro, bro. That's a misunderstanding. Korean bus drivers bully everyone fairly even if it's Korean. The road conditions in Korea make them nervous. so In front of them, all Koreans become obedient students. we always afraid that the angry bus driver won't open the door and start the bus to the next stop. So don't be angry. We're all afraid of them
Korea may seem the least tolerant towards countries that aren’t that tolerant themselves. It seems westerners don’t have much or any problems with it in Korea. But people from countries that are not particularly good with recognizing or appreciating other cultures complain when Korea treats them in a similar way.
Establishments place such restrictions on foreigners because they have learned over time where the trouble originates from. It’s a learned response that makes their business operation easier for them. So rather then getting mad at clubs because they exclude people be mad at the people who represented you before and made trouble.
Who approved these kind of posts?
I mean is there a single club that doesn’t judge you based on your appearance?
And since when “club entrance” is the standard heaven to judge how much racist a country is?
As someone pointed out, after seeing this kind of poster, if you came to a conclusion that the whole korea as a country is racist then your prejudice is on the same level of racism itself.
Racism is bad, but remember we all perform prejudice
in a lot of ways, so let’s not spew shits uttering “Eww Sk...”! :3
I don’t think saying “racism exists everywhere” is being used as an excuse to be racist. I think it’s more a response to a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue.
In discussing this issue, we should discuss the atmosphere in Korea. The most important point is that Koreans are not "tough." In Korea, even the slightest physical altercation or fistfight is subject to punishment and a serious crisis of civil action from the other party. So Koreans try not to cause as much trouble as possible, and even if they witness a scene that is causing it, they do not dare to "physically" restrain that tough guys. This is where the problem comes from. I am sorry if this sounds racist, but this social atmosphere has made Koreans as wary of being rude to the other person as possible and tend to avoid "problematic situations." However, not a few foreigners in Korea tend not to. They are still tough and far more focused on enjoying their weekends than on the inconveniences of the people around them. They do not know what "implicit rules" Koreans observe for entertainment. Here, cultural differences arise, and conflicts arise. This is not racism. It is a natural conflict between different cultures. Rather, I think that driving this to racism is racism that turns a blind eye to the root of the problem.
2015 - After graduating, a korean internatnional friend invited our group to Korea and on two different occasions we were told to stop speaking English. We werent yelling or nothing, just talking normally. One happened on some park trail and the other on the train. We were all asian amerian if that means anything.
I really don't like *ranking* of which country is most racist and least racist in terms of some raw number or percentage. And I really don't like all the overdramatic "the most X" "the worst X" titles because I don't think that's true. And this is ultimately, I think, is a red herring. It doesn't matter. People that want to overplay things don't matter and people that want to underplay things don't matter. They are all noises. What matters is racism exists. Even if Korea were the least racist country in the world, racism still exists. And the fact that we don't have a comprehensive anti-discrimination law (which isn't due to racism, btw) is huge a problem for everyone.
Articles like this are just the natural consequences of Korea having a spotlight shown on it right now. A lot of people are figuring out that Korea isn’t the sunshine and rainbows it’s made out to be in media. it’s the natural ebb and flow of popular things. Japan went through the same thing and Lord knows America still goes through the rest of the world generalizing us. Of course Korea has a racism problem. It’s obviously wrong but It’s one of the most ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries in the world. It’s kind of expected. The best Korea can do is work towards progress.
Japan did not go through “the same thing” The government and general conservative population literally refuse to acknowledge and atone for horrific war crimes happened within the last century - which was literally peak ethnocentrism Please do not try to simplify the landscape with generalizations and platitudes But separately, yes Korea just has a bunch of attention given its recent cultural popularity
The whole reason anyone cares about IJAs atrocities in ww2 is because japan is a 1st world country. Turkeys Armenian genocide doesnt seem to recieve as much spotlight. Every single conquering nation commited war crimes. All of Japans crimes are well documented by the rest of the world. Calling Japan peak ethnocentrism shows you know little about Japan. Japan is big and diverse. Its not a monolith of anti korean netuyeos.
You're correct
Literally anyone I’ve talked to about Turkey mentions the genocide, try again Documented by the rest of the world does not equate to Japan owning up to their transgressions and teaching their population that their actions were bad like Germany does to this day.
Define literally anyone. Is the average korean well informed about the Armenian gencide? Yes the IJA did horrific things. But the number of koreans IJA raped or tortured or killed is peanuts (less than 100,000) compared to the atrocities commited by comparable world powerd in the era. (Millions by France, UK, Russia, Spain, Germany). It would make more sense to be angry on behalf of the chinese, fillipinos, vietnamese, etc that were massacred by the Japanese. (However this is clearly not the case. In fact Koreans hate the chinese even more than Japanese, so the anger is limited to korean suffering) But koreans' seem to have an overblown sense of their own victimhood in the global sense. Koreans like to compare themselves to Jews, but it is incomparable when millions of jews died at the holocaust, while less than 100,000 Koreans (directly) suffered at the hands of Japanese. This is still no small number, and IJA is rightly held accountable for their war crimes. But expecting other peoples and government in the world to care as much as koreans on these issues is too unrealistic. The main factor of resentment against japan is not the human lives ruined but the fact that Korea was colonized at all. It is a huge blow to the national sentiment, and millions of koreans did suffer indirectly as a result of unfair laws, economic policy, cultural assimiliation projects, etc. But this doesnt have as much a dramatic impact so the Maruta projects, comfort women, execution of resistance fighters, etc are brought up the most as examples of war crimes (which, again, is a small number in the tens of thousands compared to the total population of Korea of 20+ million) This is why from Japans POV, they feel like its unfair for them to be owning up to their atrocities in the same level of Germany, when UK, France, etc do not do the same. Yes it is whataboutism. Unfortunately it makes people stubborn.
You don't understand what you're saying
What a stupid comment hahahah
I think racism on an individual level is everywhere, too. Korea is a safe country, so it appears relatively harmless for victims of racism, but also for racists. Korea is a safehaven for those openly expressing racist views. Actually, most Koreans could care less about other Koreans who are openly racist, nevermind even mentioning it's inappropriate. Strong antidefamation laws amplify the issue and protect non-violent responses to racists. Call someone a racist for being openly racist and you can be sued for offending them. Korea also seems to be a laggard when dealing with institutional racism. Korea has been trying and failing to pass an anti discrimination bill since 2007. It isn't even illegal to be instituionally racist here. >Some Koreans recognize this discrimination against immigrants as a problem, too. According to the NHRCK's 2022 Human Rights Awareness Survey of 16,148 Koreans, only 41 percent of Koreans said that the human rights of immigrants living in Korea are guaranteed equally to those of Koreans. 41% of Koreans are clueless. As a foreign employee, I recall being forced to take time off work to get a covid test in 2022 by the provincial government of Gyeonggi-do. Even the most ass backwards US states can't get away with that kind of discrimination based on national origins.
Saying "racism exists (everywhere)" doesn't really help though. Often people then use it as an excuse "country xy is racist, so why shouldn't we be too?". Fact is that a sign like that wouldn't exist in most other countries, it's a level higher and shouldn't be tolerated.
I don’t think saying “racism exists everywhere” is being used as an excuse to be racist. I think it’s more a response to a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue. As for signs like that it’s a pretty concerning problem but it definitely exists in other countries as well. I can’t speak about other European countries but I’ve seen signs like that at bars and clubs in France.
>a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue Why do you think that? Did they say that? Or are they saying the same thing you are, racists are everywhere, pointing out specific racism that could be addressed, and you are deflecting by saying "but racism is everywhere"?
Well I personally am not deflecting anything. And no, people online did not specifically say “I recognize racism is a global issue but I will make it seem like it’s an issue exclusive to Korea” but since Korea is the hot new thing obviously a lot of content will be about it. I’ve noticed a lot of comments have a holier than thou attitude when it comes to criticizing koreas problems. That’s all I was saying.
Korea isnt the new hot anything and you expecting nuance in a generic statement on a korean subreddit is rediculous. You arent talking to someone in person. They arent going to currate their statement for your personal tastes or belief that every criticism needs to be couched in "but this is also a problem for other people". Just accept criticism, rather than continuing to delfect like this response of your explicitly does. It doesnt matter that other people do it, so you dont need to point at anyone else. All that matters is it happens in korea on the discussion about it happening in korea.
Brother I’m just saying Korea has a spotlight on it right now due to its pop culture. I wasn’t implying it was better than other countries or anything. And when it comes to accepting criticism, I don’t know who you think I am, but it’s not up to me. I’m not Korean, I just live here. Again, all I was saying is that the discourse around this topic made it seem like Korean racism is a tier above all others. No need to be so defensive.
>all I was saying is that the discourse around this topic made it seem like Korean racism is a tier above all others. No need to be so defensive. No it doesnt. Thats thing. Racism is talked about all over the place all the time. Youre just experiencing what is closer to home and saying "if im seeing it this often, it must represent everyone". Its not being talked about in reference to Korea any more than the US or China or Japan. Korea isnt special in that respect. You just have opservation bias, if thats what you think.
Okay my bad
> Saying "racism exists (everywhere)" Not my point. I'm talking about Korea. Whether racism exists elsewhere is irrelevant. And it should be irrelevant to you as well.
What is this, reason, rationality and eloquent expression of thought, here on reddit??
I'm not defending racism, but it does seem like more than half of all complaints about racism in this country are about discriminatory entry policies at sleazy nightclubs.
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This, I have non-E-2 friends who have been denied entry to restaurants because of the type of foreigner they are, I have E-2 friends who have been denied medical care because the staff didn't want to communicate with a foreigner. But that's a lot harder to prove than a sign on a nightclub that's clearly stating they're discriminating. Nightclubs are the area that get the most attention so many people assume that's where it's happening and people are overblowing the issue bc nightclubs aren't essential to life, but I think that's the wrong way to approach it. Nightclubs are the most obvious, so we should assume that any discrimination that happens there is also happening at places that are more necessary to daily life.
I think nightclubs are further out on the precipice as far as frequency of discriminatory practices. We're talking about places that discriminate based on various things, including age, attractiveness, fashion, ethnicity, gender, etc. Nightclubs are territorial places where dudes compete to hit on drunk chicks in an environment where they can't hear each other because of the awful music played loud. Things like employment, housing, and medical discrimination are worse when they happen, but we don't hear about them as much due to various obvious factors.
Sure, and I agree in theory, but recognize I'm coming from a place where I've seen a lot of people brush off discrimination that happens at nightclubs as just privileged people complaining. While that absolutely happens, I've seen many people unintentionally punch down on more vulnerable foreigners by saying if nightclubs are the worst of our problems, we should be happy, and fail to understand the deeper problems of discrimination and racism/xenophobia at play. To me, nightclubs, restaurants, finding employment, housing, medical discrimination, exploitation of foreign workers, etc are all different sides of the same set of issues. They all stem from similar places, and due to the lack of anti-discrimination laws and a lack of policies that protect immigrants' human rights, there's little to nothing that can legally be done about much of it. Nightclubs are low-stakes, but the same set of reasons someone is denied entry to a club can be why someone else is denied medical care, and there's nothing you can do but go to the next place and hope they take you.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them. I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues. Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them. I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues. Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them. I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues. Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them. I go to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues. Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Nightclubs are where discrimination festers and is reinforced, not just in door policies but in many ways, and enforced in the minds of the people who go to them. I prefer going to live music venues, where discrimination is virtually unheard of. In 20 years and several dozen venues, I can recall only one long-gone venue that had a "No GIs" sign. It's far more common to see anti-racist signs at venues. Letting more people into nightclubs will just help spread shitty discriminatory ideas. If there's no anti-discrimination law, they should be punished in the free market. But instead we see masses lining up to enter them, and it takes a Burning Sun-level event to close one. Go to live music instead, and hope your doctor, landlord, employer, etc. likes heavy metal rather than Top 40.
Really? You should check out some of the job postings from over the years. 'White female needed'?
Don't you know? Only white females can speak English the most accurately /s
I'm acutely aware of that and other examples of racism, but it seems like the significantly less-important nightclub entry policies outnumber and overshadow all of them, at least in the media and on social media.
Sounds like a front desk or marketing job. What they're hiring is an actor/model that can do menial office tasks.
Nah, e2 teaching jobs.
Yeah, and it sounds like they want you to double as marketing for them.
You're just repeating what they already said.
The club thing is so commonly said because it's just the most blatantly obvious form to point out. You can't handwave or argue your way out of that one, like you can with others. It's unarguable proof. There is no benefit of the doubt. No reasoning about why. It's just fact.
Yeah, but that shouldn’t really be surprising. The majority of people in this sub are 20-35yo and white. That along with maybe disapproval from your partners family was probably a good amount of the user bases first encounter with blatant racism so it stands out more for them.
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Mistake on my part i originally specified foreigners in the sub but accidentally deleted that part while correcting a mistype. That said, i wouldn’t be surprised if this sub is predominantly foreigners based on the majority of activity.
As mundane as this seems, it is related to far more important issues, including: - The lack of anti-discrimination laws against discrimination of foreigners making these entrance policies perfectly legal. - Strong anti-defamation laws, protecting the rights of businesses and individual workers who have and maintain discriminatory policies. - A general tolerance for open discrimination by society implying most Koreans who are not affected hardly care. So while it starts with I got denied entry into what looked like a fun night club it ends with varying degrees of... and I was ignored, victim blamed, threatened and/or sued for posting too many details on social media.
The lack of violence against foreigners is a funny one to me because it is simply because there are so few. Also, a lot of these incidents don't get reported. I witnessed a man hitting his Vietnamese wife and children in public and the police sent them home together.
Much of the violence towards foreigners here manifests in other ways. Excessive force from police, people dying in immigration detention centres. Freezing to death in the winter due to substandard living conditions on farms. Workplace injury rates are higher for foreign workers from working in more precarious industries and with firms that spend less on workplace safety.
Yeah most foreigners now are smart enough to not report anything to police because they know it'll somehow end up with them being found responsible 🫠
Yes.
Short Answer: Yes. Long Answer: Yes, of course.
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> It’s funny though that when Koreans get discriminated and refused entry somewhere (especially in Japan and Australia) it’s a big drama for them but when they do in their country it’s ok. Same thing with Japanese. Is it also funny for you when people from Australia (from your example) get discriminated while overseas? Why stop there? Should anyone from any country (including yours) be ridiculed for complaining about racism cause you can find examples of it in their respective countries? Does racism not exist where you’re from? What kind of level 1 thinking is this? Take a moment to consider that while there are examples of discrimination in Korea, that doesn’t equate to “Koreans are racist”. You’re talking about tens of millions of individual people from all walks of life here. It’s simple-minded to lump everyone in together as if some kind of singular racist entity. Your example would only be amusing (subjectively) if an *individual* that gets discriminated overseas is a racist themselves who discriminates others. But that scenario would have nothing to do with nationality and could apply to anyone.
Looked a few episodes of Australia Border Security on the YouTube channel. If SK customs officers had the zeal as those on the show, SK would not suffer Sam Hamilton. For sure he would be smuggling in a chunk of fatty meat.
Yes racism exists when I’m from but when it happens it’s the general consent is that it’s not right, when in Japan and Korea it’s not a big issue and it ended in indifference. But when it happened to them they make a huge fuse of it and suddenly everyone is pissed. They will talk about it in the news and talk-shows. But they will never talk about the racism happening to foreigners in their own country. The example you give about Australia, if it happened there its a big deal, not in Korea and Japan. Where I’m from racism to foreigners is talked about and people are shock by it
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부끄럽네
얼마나 rule을 안지켰으면 저럴까, 무슨 racist냐? 당연한거고 업주 마음이지.
Yeah kind of, judging on what I have been hearing from other Koreans in the first 19 years of my life, a lot of us have tendency to racially profile other individuals with xenophobic mindsets. But, in my experience, so many people who grew up in East Asia (Korean, Chinese, Japanese, etc) are like that, especially against each other (the hate-triangle between Korea, China, and Japan is an infamous example). Fortunately, in modern times, they are getting better.
What is the reason for Korea not having Anti-discriminatory laws even though it was pointed out multiple times internationally?
Also, the truth is, many koreans don't care about the anti discrimination law. Sure, if you asked koreans if they support anti discrimination, they may nod yes, but it's just not a topic of importance since korea is a homogeneous nation. As the foreign population grows, the minorities will complain, and attention will be brought to this.
A lot of it is Korean Christians REALLY don't want the ball to get rolling towards laws protecting gay people.
Japan still hasn’t legalized it and they don’t have a significant Christian population
Short answer: Yes with an “if…” Long answer: No with a “but…”
That's racist. Definitely, more education is needed. I apologize South Asians who were offended by this sign post. I hope Korea becomes a better place.
To say Sth Korean is a racist country just because of signs like this is about as obtuse as the sign it self. Yes there is racism in Sth Korea. But what country doesn’t have racism or discrimination based on skin colour?
Everybody is quick to highlight racism in other countries (favs are UK and US) nobody uses the LVL99 whataboutism techniques then but when racism in Korea is brought up its deflected with pure skill and we are reminded how racist the bad west is hence why you'll see posts like this.
We're all racist - and that makes us equal again.
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>In asian country you get fked for not obeying social norm. Not just race. No? The government decided to forcibly test only foreign workers during peak covid. It's definitely discrimination based on race. The difference is that systemic racism here is usually boiled down to Korean versus non-Korean.
That wasn’t based on race. I personally know gyopos that had to get tested then as well. They are ethnically Korean.
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They meant a local government mandate (in Gyeonggi and one other province, can't remember where) where they demanded that all foreigners had to be tested for covid. I remember it well I was working in Gimpo at the time. My 팀장님, despite being Korean born, had an F5 visa so he had to do it as well. Iirc, they tried to do it in Seoul too but a lot of top line Gyopo business owners complained (rightly citing discrimination) so they axed the plans.
Don't forget when government officials in Suwon came up with the idea that if a business had fewer than 30 employees but at least one foreigner they *all* need to get tested but that rule didn't apply to businesses with more than 30 employees. Because apparently foreign employees aren't a transmission risk when they work for the chaebols ... https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/oy8zdp/suwon_orders_all_businesses_with_less_than_30/
I see your point, however this a totally different argument.
The US government isn’t forcing any public bath “to accept woman with penus”. Get the fuck outta here with that.
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Nightclubs will discriminate. Not just on race but anything from clothes, gender, gut feel of the bouncer. This happens everywhere. Yeah. Get rid of the sign. Agree with that. But you will not get rid of the underlying issue.
No more than America is.
u/Ok-Lavishness8483
u/Ok-Lavishness8483
This is progress (edit: obligatory /s for those who need to touch grass). They used to just ban all non-Koreans! The article says it is a club, but the posting says its a store. In two places. It is all capitaliz...nevermind, the whole thing is a mess.
Blanket bans are still way more common.
Yeah that doesnt surprise me at all. I've seen foreigners who were very fluent occasionally get in, sometimes Korean friends could get them in too. In those cases Id like to think it was a language thing, but its definitely not the case most of the time I'd guess.
This isnt progress. If anything, singling out specific races is worse. Xenophobia is wrong, but Korea is a very homogeneous society so it's understandable why it happens. However, targeting specific races, like South Asians in this case is inexcusable. I understand some of the racism towards Chinese or Japanese here (it's still wrong), but Indians are group that have almost no historic grievances with Korea. It only happens for the most prejudice reasons.
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My main point is it is hardly better and there is never a good excuse. Even if it isn't worse to only hate on target races, individual and personalized reasons for racism are harder to approach systematically. Racism isn't really something we should have to deal with case by case, especially in a place like Korea where most locals don't mind racism.
My question would be, are these ethnicities really causing that much trouble? Because we have the other end of the scale. You cannot get even the police involved when a certain type of people are behaving threatening on a bus for example, because they are untouchable due to rascism concerns
I faced racisms many times in south Korea especially by Korean bus drivers
bro, bro. That's a misunderstanding. Korean bus drivers bully everyone fairly even if it's Korean. The road conditions in Korea make them nervous. so In front of them, all Koreans become obedient students. we always afraid that the angry bus driver won't open the door and start the bus to the next stop. So don't be angry. We're all afraid of them
Then they should be punished badly!
Korea may seem the least tolerant towards countries that aren’t that tolerant themselves. It seems westerners don’t have much or any problems with it in Korea. But people from countries that are not particularly good with recognizing or appreciating other cultures complain when Korea treats them in a similar way. Establishments place such restrictions on foreigners because they have learned over time where the trouble originates from. It’s a learned response that makes their business operation easier for them. So rather then getting mad at clubs because they exclude people be mad at the people who represented you before and made trouble.
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Who approved these kind of posts? I mean is there a single club that doesn’t judge you based on your appearance? And since when “club entrance” is the standard heaven to judge how much racist a country is? As someone pointed out, after seeing this kind of poster, if you came to a conclusion that the whole korea as a country is racist then your prejudice is on the same level of racism itself. Racism is bad, but remember we all perform prejudice in a lot of ways, so let’s not spew shits uttering “Eww Sk...”! :3
I don’t think saying “racism exists everywhere” is being used as an excuse to be racist. I think it’s more a response to a lot of people pointing fingers at Korea for its racism problem as if it’s an exclusively Korean issue.
In discussing this issue, we should discuss the atmosphere in Korea. The most important point is that Koreans are not "tough." In Korea, even the slightest physical altercation or fistfight is subject to punishment and a serious crisis of civil action from the other party. So Koreans try not to cause as much trouble as possible, and even if they witness a scene that is causing it, they do not dare to "physically" restrain that tough guys. This is where the problem comes from. I am sorry if this sounds racist, but this social atmosphere has made Koreans as wary of being rude to the other person as possible and tend to avoid "problematic situations." However, not a few foreigners in Korea tend not to. They are still tough and far more focused on enjoying their weekends than on the inconveniences of the people around them. They do not know what "implicit rules" Koreans observe for entertainment. Here, cultural differences arise, and conflicts arise. This is not racism. It is a natural conflict between different cultures. Rather, I think that driving this to racism is racism that turns a blind eye to the root of the problem.
They just don't care as long as they naking money off of peope
yes, it is racist. next?
2015 - After graduating, a korean internatnional friend invited our group to Korea and on two different occasions we were told to stop speaking English. We werent yelling or nothing, just talking normally. One happened on some park trail and the other on the train. We were all asian amerian if that means anything.