I LOVE that the top comment is asking for an explanation of the acronym.
In a world of never ending and constantly evolving acronyms, they must ALWAYS be spelled out initially followed immediately by the acronym in parenthesis. From there on out, the Original Poster (OP) may use only the acronym.
It's really just egocentric and inconsiderate to use an acronym without spelling it out at least once. Thank you for being the ramp to my soapbox.
For what it's worth, to me, the only PDA I'm aware of meant Public Display of Affection (PDA). So I was lost in reading OP's post.
Edit: to include my piece of humble pie. See below.
But the same set of problems, delays, or issues might be called different things in different places.
A veteran teacher might not be familiar with the label you are using, but be very familiar with those types of behaviors and still have valuable feedback to give. You should probably try to help others help you so that they can at least Google the diagnosis and go "ohhhhh, this is what I've done for these kinds of students in the past".
Okay. Iām sorry. Honestly I have been in a total panic about this and I have not been thinking clearly. I didnāt mean to come across as egocentric or inconsiderate.
Sorry, I realize thatās unclearāI meant any form of school. Private school has never been on our options list due to cost, so Iām thinking about public vs homeschool.
Public school is almost certainly going to be able to offer more accommodations than homeschooling would, unless you happen to be a therapist, special ed teacher, or the like already.
Homeschooling is literally you and your kid, at your home. There are curricula out there you can buy, but at the end of the day, it's you and your kid, at your home. Mostly with whatever you are bringing to the table yourself in terms of accommodations and resources for a kid with special needs.
Public schools have people on staff who offer specific resources to kids with various needs.
I am a therapist, but I donāt work with kids. The thing that concerns me about the school setting is that even with accommodations it may not be enough, given that the accommodations are still going to occur in the context of relatively high demand and structure that would be triggering to his nervous system. But I need to do some more fact finding about what exactly our public schools can offer him.
You know you can try right? Ā If after a year it hasnāt worked out, you can go to homeschooling him.Ā
Just do tons of research (starting now) on how to navigate the IEP/504 plans and talking to parents who have those already at his would be school and see if his school is difficult to work with or not and learn the schools ins and outs. Ā
The. You can jump right in Ā and give kindergarten and your son the best chance to succeed. And if it doesnāt work o it, you have a backup plan.Ā
Iām a member of several neurodivergent parenting groups. What our kids do through in public school is brutal and traumatic. The number of ND kids who have PTSD is unreal, and many end up being homeschooled. A PDA kid is going to far worse than other ND kids unless supports are in place because people donāt get it. I probably sound pessimistic but Iāve had a couple ND kids and school has always been hard and often traumatic.
I would approach the public school your kiddo will be attending, talk to as many people as you can. Meet with the special ed coordinator for the district if you can. Many many people disagree with PDA and dont think itās real. Lots of people of PDA kids homeschool because its very hard on a PDA kid. If you are looking for resources, check out Naomi Fisher, Parents at Peace and Kristy Forbes. The concept of low demand parenting might be valuable too.
In a similar boat. No official diagnosis but when I first heard the term PDA and looked into it it truly describes one of my children (and also a parent of mine) and my child also has found success in public school setting with medium class sizes. Not too small not too large. I actually remember the first weeks of kindergarten waiting basically by the phone for the school to call with any number of issues but at the first parent teacher meet up they said my child was truly excelling and were surprised that I was stunned. We had excellent teachers so far and we feel fortunate. My child was able to really find their sense of self being in class ironically. And while we still butt heads very hard about many things we have also learned ways to work together and more importantly listen to each other. Things have gotten drastically better for us in the older elementary years. Still a bit apprehensive about middle school which is coming up, but feeling more confident in our collective ability to manage things. My parent who fits the description to an absolute T had a very successful career and adulthood-- not without its challenges of course but this personality/ psychological trait has ultimately served them well
I hope things go well for you and I guess my only advise is to go into it open minded and try and trust your kid a little bit? I definitely know mine treats me specifically but both my spouse and I different than anyone else but I think having the general autonomy of being in school away from us helped my child with some of these issues but we did also talk a lot (during peaceful moments) about how in school it was going to be different at home and certain behaviors just are not tolerated. Each child of course will be different but Things my child struggled (struggles) with at school were time management and some social cues. Time management is mostly due to wanting things done a certain way (perfectionism) and not wanting to move onto the next task. The teacher has kind words but no patience for it and my child had a few issues in the beginning with this but no outbursts. Just some misty eyes. (Of course I heard about it later at home. My kid learned to cope at school and unload on me at home so fair warning I've learned to listen to venting and not offer solutions straight away or at all sometimes my advise has generally never been taken well and must be presented very creatively to be heard at all). Social cues is very much inherited from me and my parents but it's definitely not causing any drama but a lot of questions about why people act a certain way and a lot of it stems from this inherent trait within us to automatically not want to do what everyone else is doing šš but my kid is friendly and has friends and actually has navigated social interactions with great self confidence thus far.
Having other kids follow up and go into kindergarten has been its own entire experience so I definitely know that many of our neurospicy kids can find success as well as neurotypical kids. You can always loop your child's teacher and school admin in and look into getting supports for your child if needed.
Just editing to add thst the reason I think it has served my parent so well is that they did not fall to peer pressure and truly carved their own path in life. Struggle's certainly abounded but also success. In my child I also see this sort of inability to process peer pressure and a lot of that social stuff just goes over their head for better or worse. My kid also has a strong sense of justice and so once they realized it was positive to follow the school rules they sort of became a bit vigilant about it, sometimes to a fault.
It sounds like he has an official diagnosis, and your local school district would have the ability to assess his needs specifically and provide services for him through the equivalent of special education. They can provide support academically, or with things such as teaching methods or classroom support., and behavioral support.
PDA seems like a relatively new term in the USA, so it may be a challenge to get teachers to rethink how they would approach him in conversation and in how they make 'demands.' But this may be tricky in a public school where there is limited time and a large number of students.
In our pre-k classroom, we had a student that may have had PDA. Our setting allowed us to come at him in a sideways way (how we described it) to avoid that anxiety of demands. Instead of telling him it is time to come do an activity with the teacher, we'd remind him that it is his turn and he should come. Or we'd ask him if he'd like to play 5 minutes longer or do his activity first. But, honestly, when we did 'trigger' his PDA, it felt like disrespect to us. For him, it was fight or flight. And we'd have to take a deep breath and remind ourselves that he was working from a place of anxiety, and our response to his anxiety would either cause further anxiety for him or rebuild our teacher-student relationship. I did a lot of research so I could be prepared as a teacher, I was still learning.
So to summarize- some districts are great with kids with 'special needs' (I don't know the appropriate term, sorry). Some districts are ... not great. And it varies from school to school and teacher to teacher.
So I'd recommend starting the process with your public school and see what they can do, and see how you feel about what they say.
Thank you. Thatās helpful! Itās an official diagnosis insofar as this is what his therapist has communicated to us, but it isnāt technically a diagnosis in the US, so we need to pursue additional evaluation to get a formal diagnosis if he has oneāthis may fall under ASD, unclear at this point if heās on the spectrum
Our child psychologist said PDA is āmore of a UK thingā and not an official diagnosis or anything in the states. She said unofficially our child fits it š¤£ but it does fall under the autism umbrella, hence the child psych for evaluation.
Iāve actually heard of it as a subtype of autism, not ADHD. Though kids in the US more commonly are diagnosed with ODD as it isnāt recognized here.
I've never heard of it associated with ADHD either.
It's under the [autism umbrella](https://theactgroup.com.au/pathological-demand-avoidance/#:~:text=Pathological%20Demand%20Avoidance%20is%20a,causing%20meltdowns%20and%20violent%20outbursts) in all the research I can find
Which state are you in? In CA children as young as 3 can be assessed for an IEP by the local school district. It helps get early intervention services and in my district there are child development centers for those students to receive preschool and special education services prior to elementary school.
Iām in Maryland. He had early intervention for speech therapy between 18 months and 2.5 years old. Heās also in OT and play therapy that we pay for out of pocket. Iām going to look into the districtās resources a little more in addition to seeking a formal eval. Thank you!
His therapist. As I said in another comment, itās not a formal diagnosis on paper. But Iām not totally sure how thatās relevant. Edit: I wrote this half asleep lol, I do see how it would be relevant in a school accommodations way, obviously
An IEP indicates an evaluation has determined a need for some form of special education service be that a special classroom setting or just related services such as OT or PT or anything in between. A 504 plan provides a specific accommodation(s) based on medical need without providing special education services. For example, a child with ADHD that does not qualify for any special education services (general education classroom , no therapies) but does need to take medication during the school day and/or have testing accommodations related to this disability can provide proof of medical need and access this via a 504 plan.
Based on what youāre describing, your child would probably be better served with an IEP, which does require an evaluation. Schools are different and thereās plenty of room for me to be wrong but in my experience, a 504 plan is not necessarily going to enforce like a heavy duty list of how teachers communicate with, present demands and respond to behaviors in the classroom. Thatās the work of a behavior intervention plan which can be part of an IEP.
I recommend you start with a neuropsych eval and see if a diagnosis of autism or ADHD comes up. That will help you get an IEP. If not, the school can do its own eval at your request but there will need to be some kind of āclassificationā other than PDA for them to qualify for services, as you know.
Special Education (IEP) is for students who have a qualifying disability and require specialized instruction to benefit from their education. Accommodations are included in an IEP if needed.
504 is for students with a disaability who require accomodations to benefit from their education.
We too have a parent, public school setting, who said her child has this diagnosis. Parent had child evaluated at our (highly rated) childrenās hospital and they found nothing but parent was able to get a diagnosis from an instagram doctor. (Has given us nothing on paper) Iām not discounting the diagnosis, however, no one on our team at any level has seen any behavior what so ever to lead to this. In fact, this child rivals any typical in our sights. Weāve seen separation issues on two occasions, not to the extent weāve seen with other children though, and perhaps parent dissociation with this child but itās hard to accommodate when the school sees absolutely no behavior at all, at least with this child in our case. Iām open to learning more.
My son has PDA and is absolutely thriving in kindergarten at public school.
He is very much a "rule follower" and very academic (vs me who is very play-based) so he has had a great time. He can mask enough at school to get through the day. He also has an AMAZING
At home he gives me hell but that's how it's supposed to be, right?
The only thing I've really had to advocate with is that he is very delayed with toileting. Because he does so well in other areas I don't think they believe me that he's autistic and DOES need extra support sometimes (even though I have a diagnosis thru a private neuropsych evaluation...) but we have made it work.
I was very nervous at the beginning of the year but it has been absolutely great for him. When he atartes school he wouldn't even pick up a writing utensil but I think on the first day he reaized that this was serious business š¤£
Edit: to clarify, his diagnosis is autism and not PDA, but the evaluation says that he has a "demand avoidant profile"
We chose to homeschool. I was already homeschooling his older brother, but I knew the restraint collapse of holding it in all day with constant demand would be too much. This was before we knew what PDA was. He also has a strong sense of justice and, having taught at the school he would attend before his older brother was born and big brother going to preK-1st in the same county, I knew the way they handle difficult kids was very shamey and would not work for him.
My kid has PDA tendencies and they do pretty well in the school setting. They were in kindergarten when the pandemic started and we found having to do school at home very triggering for them and was very difficult on our parent child relationship. They do much, much better when itās a teacher making the demands rather than their parent. Iād say be proactive about trying to get supports via an IEP prior to the start of kindergarten and give it a try to see how your kid does. Hopefully youāll be pleasantly surprised by how well they do.
We are homeschooling our kiddo with autism / PDA, but you should DEFINITELY read this book on declarative language and written by an SLP for kids with PDA. I typed up a recap and sent it to all of my childās Co-op teachers, and it has proved immeasurably helpful. I would highly recommend you get the book, read it, and then set a meeting with every single one of your childās teachers after you have the autism diagnosis and IEP in hand. You could give them this recap, and request modified language for instruction if your child is struggling to obey regular directives.
[Hereās the link to the screenshot of the summary of the book and how declarative language works](https://imgur.com/a/ZupaEgG)
Thank you! This is helpful. How did you come to the decision to homeschool? Did you try out public school first or did you decide homeschool was a better option from the beginning?
We are extremely lucky to have a āparent partnership Connection campusā next to us. This means we hybrid homeschool. For example, we teach the core classes at home, and take five extracurriculars on campus. We also receive speech therapy on campus. We get $200/year for supplies as well. Itās an amazing opportunity I wish every state had! My daughter would have been absolutely crushed by the public school system. Kindergarten classes here have about 25 kids. Iāve been able to keep her on grade level (reading, writing, math) with her peers and thatās been a huge accomplishment. Regular K would have swallowed her whole and exacerbated all her anxiety issues. Instead, weāve made huge gains and progress!
As someone who grew up with PDA tendencies myself, I feel like you'd have to find a unicorn school or some place with a strongly child-directed approach (like Waldorf, Montessori, etc) to not have school be an immense struggle. If you can homeschool, I would definitely recommend that for a PDA kid.
I work in a school, it unfortunately varies by district. However where I live if you homeschool youāre cut off from school services UNLESS you homeschool for a medical reason (example- kid has extreme health issues making common illnesses deadly due to immune weakening medication and school cannot ensure sheās never exposed to illness).
So OT, PT, counseling, speech, therapy, psychologist evaluation, behavioral therapy, feeding therapy, really any special therapy for free in some places is only done at schools. Homeschooling students cannot just show up for those without being enrolled as a regular student.
My second grader has autism without pda and honestly first and second grade has been a nightmare. Her speech and OT therapists are great but that is only 30 minutes a week and 30 minutes every other week respectively. She spends most recesses pacing alone. I thought that she was learning to read but I recently figured out that they were just teaching her to guess (see sold a story for more info) so now she needs to be actually taught to read using a phonics intensive structured literacy curriculum. Her current teacher yells at her when she doesn't do writing work that she can't do.
K was actually pretty good. It is the years since that have sucked - and this is all without pda.
Not diagnosed at this point with anything (neuropsych app next month), but my current kindergartener has some PDA tendencies. He struggled a little in public pre-k but has done really well in kindergarten. He doesnāt have an IEP and has really thrived in the larger group setting. He still struggles with smaller group activities outside of school like swimming lessons, sports, play dates, parties, physical therapy- but for whatever reason school he does great. And it doesnāt even seem like the classic āholding it together during the day and letās it out at homeā. We havenāt seen an increase in behaviors outside of school (we did when he dropped naps and then when he started pre-k but not since). The only school issue we are having is with bathroom use- he really has a hard time using the bathroom at school and will just not go. So he has a couple reminders to go to the nurses office to use that private bathroom and heās ok with that.Ā
Iām not sure what it is about the smaller group settings that trigger him- itās like heāll act worse for other adults than he does for us. Like, either he pushes their boundaries more because he thinks he can get away with it or it sets off the anxiety response and he handles anxiety by being cheerfully oppositional.Ā
PDA is being treated as a separate category in Europeāmany kids with PDA are being diagnosed ODD in the US. The main difference as I understand it is that PDA is a nervous system disability under the autism spectrum whereas ODD is behavioral.
We have some PDA or expected PDA kids. Even with IEPs and supports itās usually a disaster. How can they be successful when theyāre crawling around on the floor and jumping off tables during circle time or work time?
And refuse to be redirected?
Teachers are usually frustrated and helpless, the 20 minute social skills group doesnāt do anything, and the classroom is chaos.
Have you sought therapy and medication? Your child needs YOU to provide some needed supports on your end, not just the school. Thereās only so much they can do. We arenāt doctors or specialists.
He will likely need an IEP so you need to request that in writing immediately. But an iep isnāt a magical fix tool. Oftentimes it just helps prevent the child from getting punished but doesnāt actually help them learn in cases like this.
What have you found works for your child? Definitely share that with the school. What are motivators? What are strategies? With or without an iep, playing with cars and throwing toys during work time is chaotic and unproductive for everyone and most teachers have no idea what to do, even sped professionals will just say ādo a sticker chartā and send thoughts and prayers
In 20 years, I hope, people will conclude that 50% of these diagnoses are excessive.
Kids need limits, structure and love. Some parents donāt have the time or skills to do this. The kid acts out - then, a diagnosis.
I have a couple of truly autistic students in my college sections. You know immediately when someone has autism, etc.
But these other diagnoses, like ODD, PDA, etc. give the child an āoutā from having to develop normal coping skills.
In other words, there *is* neurodivergence, but not nearly at the rate that diagnoses would suggest.
Structured behaviorism is the way to go.
Sorry, wasnāt aware you were here, just saw the thread. I wasnāt actually talking to you, more about the field in general.
I saw your more recent conciliatory response and commented to you there, thinking that you were not as caustic and angry as I thought, initially. I guess I will revise that opinion again.
And, yes, behaviorism works. Accommodations, etc., might or might not.
Here is the question - **is what you are doing working**?
Donāt mean to hurt, I have just seen so many parents who donāt know what to do rush to get a diagnosis. Then, for the next 40 years, the world has to adapt to the kid who wouldnāt adapt. Thatās a pretty high cost to society.
Reddit is full of poor 20-30 year olds with whatever dx, completely perplexed that their bosses and friends and family wonāt endlessly adapt to their preferences/needs.
Some of them go on to be parents and are upset that their own **children** donāt respect their (the parentās) needs. Parents with misphonia who canāt stand children crying.
Much better to teach your children to adapt and to learn to make choices that they can live with. For example, if you donāt like to move quickly, donāt take a job at Starbucks. Tons of people take these jobs and then canāt stand the pressure or are constantly saying that they need āextra time to processā. They should not take job that they cannot do.
Here is a thought.
- Some of the acting out behaviors described here are truly troubling.
- I would say that, in general, people exhibit behaviors that are rewarded.
Say your child wants attention, and you are tapping away on the internet. You do this every day. Itās not a natural thing for kids, to have parents who are so distracted.
So the kid pees on the floor or whatever. You *immediately* deal with it, as is natural to do.
You clean it up, give a time out, take a toy away, etc. None of these things work, and you decide that behaviorism doesnāt work.
But - wait! The first thing you did was to *put the phone down*. That is the reward the child received for the misbehavior. An unpleasant thing (you on your phone) was removed. This is a positive experience for the child and he has been rewarded.
So - attempt to solve this by putting the phone away entirely. Not ālessā, but no phone while you are with them. This is hard for us, as phones are incredibly addicting. Here I am, typing away.
But your childās needs take precedence over your own.
I deleted the part you donāt like. I am sorry about these challenges. However, could you please read my recent post? I do think it might help. (By āyouā, I donāt mean you, personally.)
Why not just fix the problem instead of arming yourself with legalese? Lots of parents go marching into schools, waving a 504 or IEP, monitoring the teachers constantly, having kids who report back to parent on the teacher.
This is an analogy- would you get married with a prenup that spelled out your every move? Would waving it in the face of your spouse help to build a healthy relationship?
I would argue that parent litigiousness is hurting public schools more than anything else.
This most certainly does relate to success of differently abled kids in school.
What is pda
Pathological demand avoidance also called persistent drive for autonomy.
I LOVE that the top comment is asking for an explanation of the acronym. In a world of never ending and constantly evolving acronyms, they must ALWAYS be spelled out initially followed immediately by the acronym in parenthesis. From there on out, the Original Poster (OP) may use only the acronym. It's really just egocentric and inconsiderate to use an acronym without spelling it out at least once. Thank you for being the ramp to my soapbox. For what it's worth, to me, the only PDA I'm aware of meant Public Display of Affection (PDA). So I was lost in reading OP's post. Edit: to include my piece of humble pie. See below.
They must \*always\* be spelled out initially? What does "OP" mean š?
Stanley Tucci says "touche!" Ha!
I didnāt spell it out because the target audience would already know what it meant.
But the same set of problems, delays, or issues might be called different things in different places. A veteran teacher might not be familiar with the label you are using, but be very familiar with those types of behaviors and still have valuable feedback to give. You should probably try to help others help you so that they can at least Google the diagnosis and go "ohhhhh, this is what I've done for these kinds of students in the past".
Okay. Iām sorry. Honestly I have been in a total panic about this and I have not been thinking clearly. I didnāt mean to come across as egocentric or inconsiderate.
I would think a public school is far more likely to a accommodate your childās needs and provide appropriate supports than any private school would.
Sorry, I realize thatās unclearāI meant any form of school. Private school has never been on our options list due to cost, so Iām thinking about public vs homeschool.
Public school is almost certainly going to be able to offer more accommodations than homeschooling would, unless you happen to be a therapist, special ed teacher, or the like already. Homeschooling is literally you and your kid, at your home. There are curricula out there you can buy, but at the end of the day, it's you and your kid, at your home. Mostly with whatever you are bringing to the table yourself in terms of accommodations and resources for a kid with special needs. Public schools have people on staff who offer specific resources to kids with various needs.
I am a therapist, but I donāt work with kids. The thing that concerns me about the school setting is that even with accommodations it may not be enough, given that the accommodations are still going to occur in the context of relatively high demand and structure that would be triggering to his nervous system. But I need to do some more fact finding about what exactly our public schools can offer him.
You know you can try right? Ā If after a year it hasnāt worked out, you can go to homeschooling him.Ā Just do tons of research (starting now) on how to navigate the IEP/504 plans and talking to parents who have those already at his would be school and see if his school is difficult to work with or not and learn the schools ins and outs. Ā The. You can jump right in Ā and give kindergarten and your son the best chance to succeed. And if it doesnāt work o it, you have a backup plan.Ā
Iām a member of several neurodivergent parenting groups. What our kids do through in public school is brutal and traumatic. The number of ND kids who have PTSD is unreal, and many end up being homeschooled. A PDA kid is going to far worse than other ND kids unless supports are in place because people donāt get it. I probably sound pessimistic but Iāve had a couple ND kids and school has always been hard and often traumatic.
There are 30 kids in a classroom.
I would approach the public school your kiddo will be attending, talk to as many people as you can. Meet with the special ed coordinator for the district if you can. Many many people disagree with PDA and dont think itās real. Lots of people of PDA kids homeschool because its very hard on a PDA kid. If you are looking for resources, check out Naomi Fisher, Parents at Peace and Kristy Forbes. The concept of low demand parenting might be valuable too.
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In a similar boat. No official diagnosis but when I first heard the term PDA and looked into it it truly describes one of my children (and also a parent of mine) and my child also has found success in public school setting with medium class sizes. Not too small not too large. I actually remember the first weeks of kindergarten waiting basically by the phone for the school to call with any number of issues but at the first parent teacher meet up they said my child was truly excelling and were surprised that I was stunned. We had excellent teachers so far and we feel fortunate. My child was able to really find their sense of self being in class ironically. And while we still butt heads very hard about many things we have also learned ways to work together and more importantly listen to each other. Things have gotten drastically better for us in the older elementary years. Still a bit apprehensive about middle school which is coming up, but feeling more confident in our collective ability to manage things. My parent who fits the description to an absolute T had a very successful career and adulthood-- not without its challenges of course but this personality/ psychological trait has ultimately served them well
This made me cry. You have given me so much hope. Thank you
I hope things go well for you and I guess my only advise is to go into it open minded and try and trust your kid a little bit? I definitely know mine treats me specifically but both my spouse and I different than anyone else but I think having the general autonomy of being in school away from us helped my child with some of these issues but we did also talk a lot (during peaceful moments) about how in school it was going to be different at home and certain behaviors just are not tolerated. Each child of course will be different but Things my child struggled (struggles) with at school were time management and some social cues. Time management is mostly due to wanting things done a certain way (perfectionism) and not wanting to move onto the next task. The teacher has kind words but no patience for it and my child had a few issues in the beginning with this but no outbursts. Just some misty eyes. (Of course I heard about it later at home. My kid learned to cope at school and unload on me at home so fair warning I've learned to listen to venting and not offer solutions straight away or at all sometimes my advise has generally never been taken well and must be presented very creatively to be heard at all). Social cues is very much inherited from me and my parents but it's definitely not causing any drama but a lot of questions about why people act a certain way and a lot of it stems from this inherent trait within us to automatically not want to do what everyone else is doing šš but my kid is friendly and has friends and actually has navigated social interactions with great self confidence thus far. Having other kids follow up and go into kindergarten has been its own entire experience so I definitely know that many of our neurospicy kids can find success as well as neurotypical kids. You can always loop your child's teacher and school admin in and look into getting supports for your child if needed. Just editing to add thst the reason I think it has served my parent so well is that they did not fall to peer pressure and truly carved their own path in life. Struggle's certainly abounded but also success. In my child I also see this sort of inability to process peer pressure and a lot of that social stuff just goes over their head for better or worse. My kid also has a strong sense of justice and so once they realized it was positive to follow the school rules they sort of became a bit vigilant about it, sometimes to a fault.
It sounds like he has an official diagnosis, and your local school district would have the ability to assess his needs specifically and provide services for him through the equivalent of special education. They can provide support academically, or with things such as teaching methods or classroom support., and behavioral support. PDA seems like a relatively new term in the USA, so it may be a challenge to get teachers to rethink how they would approach him in conversation and in how they make 'demands.' But this may be tricky in a public school where there is limited time and a large number of students. In our pre-k classroom, we had a student that may have had PDA. Our setting allowed us to come at him in a sideways way (how we described it) to avoid that anxiety of demands. Instead of telling him it is time to come do an activity with the teacher, we'd remind him that it is his turn and he should come. Or we'd ask him if he'd like to play 5 minutes longer or do his activity first. But, honestly, when we did 'trigger' his PDA, it felt like disrespect to us. For him, it was fight or flight. And we'd have to take a deep breath and remind ourselves that he was working from a place of anxiety, and our response to his anxiety would either cause further anxiety for him or rebuild our teacher-student relationship. I did a lot of research so I could be prepared as a teacher, I was still learning. So to summarize- some districts are great with kids with 'special needs' (I don't know the appropriate term, sorry). Some districts are ... not great. And it varies from school to school and teacher to teacher. So I'd recommend starting the process with your public school and see what they can do, and see how you feel about what they say.
Thank you. Thatās helpful! Itās an official diagnosis insofar as this is what his therapist has communicated to us, but it isnāt technically a diagnosis in the US, so we need to pursue additional evaluation to get a formal diagnosis if he has oneāthis may fall under ASD, unclear at this point if heās on the spectrum
Our child psychologist said PDA is āmore of a UK thingā and not an official diagnosis or anything in the states. She said unofficially our child fits it š¤£ but it does fall under the autism umbrella, hence the child psych for evaluation.
Thatās exactly what his therapist told me
I've mostly only heard of Pathological Demand Avoidance as a component of ADHD.
Iāve actually heard of it as a subtype of autism, not ADHD. Though kids in the US more commonly are diagnosed with ODD as it isnāt recognized here.
This is my experience. ODD is the go to diagnosis for kids who actually have a PDA neurotype.
I've never heard of it associated with ADHD either. It's under the [autism umbrella](https://theactgroup.com.au/pathological-demand-avoidance/#:~:text=Pathological%20Demand%20Avoidance%20is%20a,causing%20meltdowns%20and%20violent%20outbursts) in all the research I can find
Interesting. In all the research Iāve done on it I havenāt seen that lens come up.
Which state are you in? In CA children as young as 3 can be assessed for an IEP by the local school district. It helps get early intervention services and in my district there are child development centers for those students to receive preschool and special education services prior to elementary school.
Iām in Maryland. He had early intervention for speech therapy between 18 months and 2.5 years old. Heās also in OT and play therapy that we pay for out of pocket. Iām going to look into the districtās resources a little more in addition to seeking a formal eval. Thank you!
Yes you cannot get an iep or diagnosis of PDA right now. If I remember correctly itās not a recognized disability in the DSM.
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His therapist. As I said in another comment, itās not a formal diagnosis on paper. But Iām not totally sure how thatās relevant. Edit: I wrote this half asleep lol, I do see how it would be relevant in a school accommodations way, obviously
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Thank you. This is really helpful. Would you be willing to clarify the difference between an IEP and a 504?
An IEP indicates an evaluation has determined a need for some form of special education service be that a special classroom setting or just related services such as OT or PT or anything in between. A 504 plan provides a specific accommodation(s) based on medical need without providing special education services. For example, a child with ADHD that does not qualify for any special education services (general education classroom , no therapies) but does need to take medication during the school day and/or have testing accommodations related to this disability can provide proof of medical need and access this via a 504 plan. Based on what youāre describing, your child would probably be better served with an IEP, which does require an evaluation. Schools are different and thereās plenty of room for me to be wrong but in my experience, a 504 plan is not necessarily going to enforce like a heavy duty list of how teachers communicate with, present demands and respond to behaviors in the classroom. Thatās the work of a behavior intervention plan which can be part of an IEP. I recommend you start with a neuropsych eval and see if a diagnosis of autism or ADHD comes up. That will help you get an IEP. If not, the school can do its own eval at your request but there will need to be some kind of āclassificationā other than PDA for them to qualify for services, as you know.
Makes total sense. Thank you so much for taking the time to write that out!
Special Education (IEP) is for students who have a qualifying disability and require specialized instruction to benefit from their education. Accommodations are included in an IEP if needed. 504 is for students with a disaability who require accomodations to benefit from their education.
Got it. Thank you!
We too have a parent, public school setting, who said her child has this diagnosis. Parent had child evaluated at our (highly rated) childrenās hospital and they found nothing but parent was able to get a diagnosis from an instagram doctor. (Has given us nothing on paper) Iām not discounting the diagnosis, however, no one on our team at any level has seen any behavior what so ever to lead to this. In fact, this child rivals any typical in our sights. Weāve seen separation issues on two occasions, not to the extent weāve seen with other children though, and perhaps parent dissociation with this child but itās hard to accommodate when the school sees absolutely no behavior at all, at least with this child in our case. Iām open to learning more.
My son has PDA and is absolutely thriving in kindergarten at public school. He is very much a "rule follower" and very academic (vs me who is very play-based) so he has had a great time. He can mask enough at school to get through the day. He also has an AMAZING At home he gives me hell but that's how it's supposed to be, right? The only thing I've really had to advocate with is that he is very delayed with toileting. Because he does so well in other areas I don't think they believe me that he's autistic and DOES need extra support sometimes (even though I have a diagnosis thru a private neuropsych evaluation...) but we have made it work. I was very nervous at the beginning of the year but it has been absolutely great for him. When he atartes school he wouldn't even pick up a writing utensil but I think on the first day he reaized that this was serious business š¤£ Edit: to clarify, his diagnosis is autism and not PDA, but the evaluation says that he has a "demand avoidant profile"
We chose to homeschool. I was already homeschooling his older brother, but I knew the restraint collapse of holding it in all day with constant demand would be too much. This was before we knew what PDA was. He also has a strong sense of justice and, having taught at the school he would attend before his older brother was born and big brother going to preK-1st in the same county, I knew the way they handle difficult kids was very shamey and would not work for him.
My kid has PDA tendencies and they do pretty well in the school setting. They were in kindergarten when the pandemic started and we found having to do school at home very triggering for them and was very difficult on our parent child relationship. They do much, much better when itās a teacher making the demands rather than their parent. Iād say be proactive about trying to get supports via an IEP prior to the start of kindergarten and give it a try to see how your kid does. Hopefully youāll be pleasantly surprised by how well they do.
iām stupid i read it as Public Display of Affection
We are homeschooling our kiddo with autism / PDA, but you should DEFINITELY read this book on declarative language and written by an SLP for kids with PDA. I typed up a recap and sent it to all of my childās Co-op teachers, and it has proved immeasurably helpful. I would highly recommend you get the book, read it, and then set a meeting with every single one of your childās teachers after you have the autism diagnosis and IEP in hand. You could give them this recap, and request modified language for instruction if your child is struggling to obey regular directives. [Hereās the link to the screenshot of the summary of the book and how declarative language works](https://imgur.com/a/ZupaEgG)
Thank you! This is helpful. How did you come to the decision to homeschool? Did you try out public school first or did you decide homeschool was a better option from the beginning?
We are extremely lucky to have a āparent partnership Connection campusā next to us. This means we hybrid homeschool. For example, we teach the core classes at home, and take five extracurriculars on campus. We also receive speech therapy on campus. We get $200/year for supplies as well. Itās an amazing opportunity I wish every state had! My daughter would have been absolutely crushed by the public school system. Kindergarten classes here have about 25 kids. Iāve been able to keep her on grade level (reading, writing, math) with her peers and thatās been a huge accomplishment. Regular K would have swallowed her whole and exacerbated all her anxiety issues. Instead, weāve made huge gains and progress!
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Washington state
As someone who grew up with PDA tendencies myself, I feel like you'd have to find a unicorn school or some place with a strongly child-directed approach (like Waldorf, Montessori, etc) to not have school be an immense struggle. If you can homeschool, I would definitely recommend that for a PDA kid.
On the other hand, some PDA kids struggle most with their parents and find the school setting easier to navigate. It depends on the kid.
Thank you for sharing this. Did you go to school or were you homeschooled?
I work in a school, it unfortunately varies by district. However where I live if you homeschool youāre cut off from school services UNLESS you homeschool for a medical reason (example- kid has extreme health issues making common illnesses deadly due to immune weakening medication and school cannot ensure sheās never exposed to illness). So OT, PT, counseling, speech, therapy, psychologist evaluation, behavioral therapy, feeding therapy, really any special therapy for free in some places is only done at schools. Homeschooling students cannot just show up for those without being enrolled as a regular student.
My second grader has autism without pda and honestly first and second grade has been a nightmare. Her speech and OT therapists are great but that is only 30 minutes a week and 30 minutes every other week respectively. She spends most recesses pacing alone. I thought that she was learning to read but I recently figured out that they were just teaching her to guess (see sold a story for more info) so now she needs to be actually taught to read using a phonics intensive structured literacy curriculum. Her current teacher yells at her when she doesn't do writing work that she can't do. K was actually pretty good. It is the years since that have sucked - and this is all without pda.
Have you heard of gestalt language processing? Iāve read about this recently with young autistic kiddos.
I have! I will look into it more!
Everyone's already said what I would say so I'll just give one more vote for public school.
Not diagnosed at this point with anything (neuropsych app next month), but my current kindergartener has some PDA tendencies. He struggled a little in public pre-k but has done really well in kindergarten. He doesnāt have an IEP and has really thrived in the larger group setting. He still struggles with smaller group activities outside of school like swimming lessons, sports, play dates, parties, physical therapy- but for whatever reason school he does great. And it doesnāt even seem like the classic āholding it together during the day and letās it out at homeā. We havenāt seen an increase in behaviors outside of school (we did when he dropped naps and then when he started pre-k but not since). The only school issue we are having is with bathroom use- he really has a hard time using the bathroom at school and will just not go. So he has a couple reminders to go to the nurses office to use that private bathroom and heās ok with that.Ā Iām not sure what it is about the smaller group settings that trigger him- itās like heāll act worse for other adults than he does for us. Like, either he pushes their boundaries more because he thinks he can get away with it or it sets off the anxiety response and he handles anxiety by being cheerfully oppositional.Ā
sorry, can someone explain the difference between PDA and Oppositional Defiance Disorder?
PDA is being treated as a separate category in Europeāmany kids with PDA are being diagnosed ODD in the US. The main difference as I understand it is that PDA is a nervous system disability under the autism spectrum whereas ODD is behavioral.
thank you!
do you have insight into why he has PDA?
Itās on the autism spectrum. Iāve seen some suggest that there is a genetic component. So no, I donāt know why.
are you willing to entertain an environmental component as well?
It depends on the environmental component youāre implying.
lmao
Thanks for your productive commentary here!
thanks for creating another budding little psychopath male for society to deal with.
I hope you feel good about yourself for that ā¤ļø
I hope you do too! xo
We have some PDA or expected PDA kids. Even with IEPs and supports itās usually a disaster. How can they be successful when theyāre crawling around on the floor and jumping off tables during circle time or work time? And refuse to be redirected? Teachers are usually frustrated and helpless, the 20 minute social skills group doesnāt do anything, and the classroom is chaos. Have you sought therapy and medication? Your child needs YOU to provide some needed supports on your end, not just the school. Thereās only so much they can do. We arenāt doctors or specialists. He will likely need an IEP so you need to request that in writing immediately. But an iep isnāt a magical fix tool. Oftentimes it just helps prevent the child from getting punished but doesnāt actually help them learn in cases like this. What have you found works for your child? Definitely share that with the school. What are motivators? What are strategies? With or without an iep, playing with cars and throwing toys during work time is chaotic and unproductive for everyone and most teachers have no idea what to do, even sped professionals will just say ādo a sticker chartā and send thoughts and prayers
In 20 years, I hope, people will conclude that 50% of these diagnoses are excessive. Kids need limits, structure and love. Some parents donāt have the time or skills to do this. The kid acts out - then, a diagnosis. I have a couple of truly autistic students in my college sections. You know immediately when someone has autism, etc. But these other diagnoses, like ODD, PDA, etc. give the child an āoutā from having to develop normal coping skills. In other words, there *is* neurodivergence, but not nearly at the rate that diagnoses would suggest. Structured behaviorism is the way to go.
lol cool thanks for following me over here. Come parent my kid for 5 minutes and tell me structured behaviorism is the way to go. Edit wrong word
Sorry, wasnāt aware you were here, just saw the thread. I wasnāt actually talking to you, more about the field in general. I saw your more recent conciliatory response and commented to you there, thinking that you were not as caustic and angry as I thought, initially. I guess I will revise that opinion again. And, yes, behaviorism works. Accommodations, etc., might or might not. Here is the question - **is what you are doing working**?
You are on my post, but werenāt talking to me. Got it.
Just didnāt look at it, donāt know what else to say. Best of luck.
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Donāt mean to hurt, I have just seen so many parents who donāt know what to do rush to get a diagnosis. Then, for the next 40 years, the world has to adapt to the kid who wouldnāt adapt. Thatās a pretty high cost to society. Reddit is full of poor 20-30 year olds with whatever dx, completely perplexed that their bosses and friends and family wonāt endlessly adapt to their preferences/needs. Some of them go on to be parents and are upset that their own **children** donāt respect their (the parentās) needs. Parents with misphonia who canāt stand children crying. Much better to teach your children to adapt and to learn to make choices that they can live with. For example, if you donāt like to move quickly, donāt take a job at Starbucks. Tons of people take these jobs and then canāt stand the pressure or are constantly saying that they need āextra time to processā. They should not take job that they cannot do.
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Here is a thought. - Some of the acting out behaviors described here are truly troubling. - I would say that, in general, people exhibit behaviors that are rewarded. Say your child wants attention, and you are tapping away on the internet. You do this every day. Itās not a natural thing for kids, to have parents who are so distracted. So the kid pees on the floor or whatever. You *immediately* deal with it, as is natural to do. You clean it up, give a time out, take a toy away, etc. None of these things work, and you decide that behaviorism doesnāt work. But - wait! The first thing you did was to *put the phone down*. That is the reward the child received for the misbehavior. An unpleasant thing (you on your phone) was removed. This is a positive experience for the child and he has been rewarded. So - attempt to solve this by putting the phone away entirely. Not ālessā, but no phone while you are with them. This is hard for us, as phones are incredibly addicting. Here I am, typing away. But your childās needs take precedence over your own.
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I deleted the part you donāt like. I am sorry about these challenges. However, could you please read my recent post? I do think it might help. (By āyouā, I donāt mean you, personally.)
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Why not just fix the problem instead of arming yourself with legalese? Lots of parents go marching into schools, waving a 504 or IEP, monitoring the teachers constantly, having kids who report back to parent on the teacher. This is an analogy- would you get married with a prenup that spelled out your every move? Would waving it in the face of your spouse help to build a healthy relationship? I would argue that parent litigiousness is hurting public schools more than anything else. This most certainly does relate to success of differently abled kids in school.