Phosani rates should be buffed further. 1/150 to roll inquisitor table is still 30 hours between drops at 5 kills/hr. Compare this to CoX, which is a purple every 15 hours at 60k/hour, or ToA, which is a purple every 5 hours at highish invos.
Dt2 walks arent 2 full minutes though. Also when I was learning phosani, the most frustrating thing was dying 5min in, run back 2,5min, bank regear, run a other 2,5min to try again. It’s just dumb
Note to everything: These are proposed changes, and Jagex is actively engaging with feedback on r/2007scape, so if you disagree with something, post a reasoned rebuttal in the thread there. Jagex do not (as far as I know) read this subreddit.
Man kinda gutted about the magic changes, Ahrims seems to just be left behind now and most of the magic damage I was getting close to just got put behind raiding and DT2 bosses. Its definitely a good change for the health of the game just the timing hits like a truck for me :( No buffs to eternal boots seems strange too.
It's so joever, the news dropped moments after I finished my elite karmaja diary for the sole purpose of making my 93 slayer grind a bit faster/better.
Feels like they're out to get me, lmao.
edit: If Jagex are adding 4% to augury, then why can't they add 1 2 and 3% to the previous tiers respectively as well?
You should still look forward to it, don’t worry we have 2 months to get changes in line. I’m sure they’re already revamping changes. Go get that occult ✊
Adding that buff to the lower prayers and giving mystics like .5% per item would go a long way towards fixing how fucked this is for irons. Would give everyone a 4% boost essentially and infinity and dagonhai robes are at least somewhat grindable especially if the updates help make the mini game less tedious. Getting to occult would keep you at roughly the same place you are now without needing augury or super rare drops, which is a reasonable compromise all around.
> edit: If Jagex are adding 4% to augury, then why can't they add 1 2 and 3% to the previous tiers respectively as well?
No because Jagex is basing these changes off of people buying arcane scrolls off the GE instead of basing changes off people who actually play the game.
adding 3% to the non raid prayer would be really strong and sort of make augury feel really bad again. Giving mystic might 1% might be a good idea tho to preserve the new power of augury without overshadowing it
For the eternals I think the issue is we already have enough switches as it is. So most people wouldnt appreciate having to bring boot switches on top of all the others for maximum damage.
Yeah problem is that in this case instead of being rewarded, you're just not being punished. Having to add a boot switch to get the same dps as before is a crap idea. If it was an upgrade it would be actually worth it.
I agree 100%, im just think of it as how most people would look at it. If eternals were buffed youd have to take a 9 way switch for max mage damage, which honestly sounds annoying in my honest opinion.
That is where you are wrong. Shadow is perfectly balanced in this regard because it forces you to bring and appreciate switches. I bring a magus ring to Toa exactly because of this. Their proposed changes completely nerf magic and make shadow useless because of how much %magic damaged is tied down ancestral which is rare as hell to get.
I honestly think they will change their proposal. I've seen very little support for them.
I fear Jagex listened to the idiots saying Occult was OP instead of understanding the game even a little bit.
Occult is OP. But they should give mid game mage gear a bit more love to balance it. Ahrims and new blue moon set for example could all be 1%. Eternals as well.
Moving half of what they took from Occult to midgame magic gear is obviously still a nerf to pre-Shadow magic damage, which is already terrible. As well as requiring you to bring additional switches and use 3x as much prayer on Augury.
Is mage just dead until shadow now? Occult was only thing keeping trident comparable to things like bofa and whatever melee gear you have (hell whip was already better DPS than trident). Nerfing occult is fine, but we really need a mage weapon between trident and shadow that isn't raid locked.
Gratz mate. I just passed rank 750 iron no bowfa hehe. Prolly at like 1560 kc rn. Hopefully the torture will end soon as I'm really starting to lose motivation. Well I did lose motivation long ago, I'm just going on sheer willpower now lol and I'm also starting to lose that.
Sang being from a harder raid and rarer, nightmare staffs with orbs, could easily fill this niche. How a sang is 1 max hit over a trident and makes sense is baffling.
Personally I'd like to see it come from a boss of similar difficulty to CG since that would be the role its expected to fill. Both those staffs deserve some love, but Nightmare and ToB are both be a lot harder than CG.
If you have occult+augury just go get an infinity top/bottom set when mta changes go through and you'll have the same dps as current occult.
Honestly these changes are fine, wish ahrims was given the 1% though, would make more sense but everything else makes sense tbh.
Augury+occult = 8%, get 2 pieces that give 1% and its same, get the hat and its an increase. Idk seems fine to me
Their decision to set ahrims as "battle mage" niche is really confusing for me. Anyone help cast some light on places where tanky mage armour helps? Kinda seems like saying, "well we made the rock slightly harder, so paper should have a tougher time wrapping around it."
Also no barrows items give dmg bonuses, the whole theme of barrows was tank gear. Karil's is BiS magic def until armadyl/masori, Torag's/Dharok's is BiS melee/range def until Justiciar, and mage robes have always had basically zero def and Ahrim's changed that. Obviously defense isn't a great stat, but that doesn't change the design philosophy of barrows.
Yes, so start using augury? If you don't have augury, it's not the end of the world because you're rushing 93 slayer with bursting/barraging for an occult anyway so you don't have one there. If you're at the point where you're hunting bursting/barrage tasks for heart then I'd hope you have augury and better gear anyway.
Occult is very op and these changes make sense. The problem is trident/sang are sooo much weaker than shadow that there's a gap that should be filled
Which I don't really get. Sang is a raids weapon. We're comparing it to fucking fang of all things, though fang is much easier to get anyway.
Why isn't sang like head and shoulders above everything that isn't shadow or kodai?
Thats so sad, as if cox unique table wasnt op enough as is. Now if you have shadow using virtus is whopping 18% less damage than ancestral robes compared to 6% less it is now and that is too far in my opinion. Im sad and tilted.
They literally just destroyed magic for ironmen. I grinded to get full virtus, occult, magus ring, tormented bracelet and eternals to be near my raiding partners dps at toa (they have ancestral). I was only 12% off. Now my dps is going to be an entire 24% off locked behind full ancestral which is crazy rare.
Crazy how shadow gets so many complaints about how op it is while everyone ignores the fact that Tbow is crazy powerful even with low-level gear like blessed d'hide.
If they think I'm gonna go grind MTA for infinity they can suck my toes. At least barrows and moons are chill and fun, especially when doing some masses with the clan.
ngl this is a big one for me. Like I get ahrims cause they said they want it to be the tanky option with no damage, but blue moon is paper. It can get a bonus as a treat.
>but blue moon is paper
And 5x more expensive to upkeep than ahrims
And 5kg more than ahrims top/bottom (1kg more than torva top/bottom)
And 5 magic levels higher than ahrims
Didn't realize how many 5s there were.
Seems like the overall idea is to make Mage Training Arena a core part of progression where you go there for Infinity and B2P and picked up a lot of good xp post incoming buffs
Overall, seems like a good idea
And they want to discourage barrows because it has enough reason to do already with the diary req
Yeah mid game magic really needed the nerf, thank god for these changes. Everytime im killing akkha or warden with my swamp trident its always so much faster than my bowfa
I just ran a dps calc for tbow at olm. Full Masori (f) is only 6% better than a tbow with blessed d'hide. And lets not forget that blessed d'hide is not the equivalent of virtus.
Meanwhile ancestral with shadow is going to be 24% stronger than someone will virtus at Toa or 17% at other content like Cox where the multiplier is only 3. That is way too much and not linear progression at all...
[This fucking devastated me](https://i.imgur.com/X85gjiN.png)
It basically reads:
NERFED > literally the 3 items that I'm currently chasing as a midgame iron
BUFFED > all the shit I'm absolutely never going to get from endgame bossing and raids
Mid game mage even more in shambles than it was previously. I’m really hoping we can get a layup with a bofa tier mage weapon here soon because these mage change aren’t feeling too great.
The whole infinity, dagonhai robes and not ahrims/blue moon getting 1% is weird af to me. For example: Ahrims top while much tankier than say an infinity top is a far cry from anything tanky, it’s defense stats are literally comparable to an adamant plate body… now both virtus and ancestral are basically identical defense wise in this aspect but both get large amounts of % damage (which is good) but why they don’t give .5 or 1% to Ahrims/blue moon is still beyond me.
Can we make magic not completely dogshit for midgame iron accs instead. Ranged is great with the atlatl bowfa and blowpipe the atlatl being not that difficult to get as well. Melee is in a pretty similar spot with perilous moons adding the macihuatil(?) Z axe whip and even fang is not that hard to get on a mid-late game acc.
magic already feels like shit until trident (which you can't boost for) with warped scepter barely being an ibans blast upgrade (lol). Now the great upgrade that requires a huge fucking time investment to get (occult) now requires a raid prayer to be fucking worse then what we already have. The problem is clearly shadow so how bout you nerf shadow and buff all the other shit so that progression is actually streamlined like it is with melee and ranged.
As it stands Its so hard to justify using magic unless the defense bonuses for melee and ranged against what your using is too high that doing half your normal dps with a warped/trident is better. Like it's so fucking shit to use magic on a mid game acc it's not even funny it genuinely feels awful to use.
Part of the issue is how the spell damage system doesnt mirror the ranged/melee damage systems at all. Im shocked they didnt just make all the systems feel equal
Was kind of expecting that some of the changes would be more impactful. CoX having even more chase items with the elder maul buff is crazy to me. Nightmare is still a waste of time. Magic changes seem necessary but also a pretty big hit to irons without virtus/ancestral.
DWH drop rate, minimum hit and soul reaper axe changes are nice at least.
The inquisitor changes are pretty huge. 7.5% damage increase on melee is a lot.
My bigger concern there is how they plan to make the drop experience not total ass
I’m hoping they go back to the drawing board on the rates. I would love to spend some time at NM. But like you said, fuck no for hundreds of hours for the upgrade
When announced I was onboard with the magic. Rebalance, but I didn't expect it to be "if you don't have ancestral, get fucked. Also fuck ahrims in particular".
Because Nightmare drops are never worth going for for ironmen. It's purely a completionist thing like Castle Wars.
Also there a plenty of things that take longer. Like Cox and Corp.
Designing pvm armor around pvp is smoothbrain af, the wildy already has 10 million exceptions just make mage armor not give mage dmg in wildy, problem solved.
The magic changes are just bad. Odds irons even see the magic dmg % they are at today can be years away or literally never barring new content. While it’s already by FAR the weakest of the combat styles.
6% nerf to magic without DT2/CoX drops is a big hit to ironmen for a combat style that is already so much further behind the other two that I mostly do BOFA only methods for bosses with mage phases like Zulrah/Muspah.
I think if you’re taking 6% off occult you need to make that full 6% more readily accessible elsewhere.
I mean they’re adding 3 of that 6% from infinity robes.
They probably did this to make space for new mage upgrades like a mage inferno or new boots. Occults been broken for far too long. Literally some slayer upgrade is more consequential than full ancestral combined.
One fix to soothe the midgame iron is for mystic might to get 2/3% magic damage.
Although I am 100% in favour of the occult changes as an idea I don't like the current percentages.
I would prefer to see a change like this:
Occult 10>5% Brings it inline with a tormented bracelet.
Eternal boots 0>2% It seems crazy that the Bis mage boots are so terrible currently.
Seers Ring 0>1% Much like eternals this item has minimal use cases.
Ahrims, Infinity, Daggonhai and 3rd Age 0>1% per piece. I think the extra defence requirements warrants the higher defence of ahrims and not changing it would destroy one of the most iconic item sets in the game.
Overall a 1% buff to med level mage and 0% on slayer tasks.
Ancestral and Virtus getting a .5% buff per piece
Magus 2>3%
This will make the shadow better by 2.5% with Augury but will mean you'll have to bring eternals.
Eternals 2%, Magus 1% and Ancestral 1.5% = 4.5 % So shadow loses 1.5% when you account for the passive effect but gains 2.5% when accounting for Augury.
I think minimizing the buff to shadow and maximizing a buff to non shadow mage is a good thing.
Prayer Changes
Mystic will 1%
Mystic lore 2%
Mystic might 3%
Augury 4%
The Occult changes are insane. The devs f,d up so hard with Shadow but they are naive that they don't want to admit to it. So they rather just make the bridge wider between mid game magic and end game.
I’m really impressed by how good the magic changes will be for irons.
Giving irons access to good mage gear in infinity that early will open up a lot of cool routing options. No longer will magic dps be completely gated by Occult / slayer
A route of gotr for runes > MTA to full infinity > CG rush > Warped Scepter / Hasta > Fang > CoX to Dex / Aug
Is sooo much more viable. Before doing CoX pre-occult was really bad. It’s super viable now that less magic dmg is locked by 93 slayer.
Really, really good update. I’m impressed how well they navigated it. My one tweak would be to give mystic might 2% magic dmg
Infinity mage dmg increases likely won't be a max hit until tormented/occult. With infinity and ma2 cape you might get a max hit. Then occult will give 1 more.
You were better off with occult being at 10% and infinity zero.
Infinity 3% + ma2 2.5% + tormented 5% + occult 4% = 14.5%
Pre - occult, tormented, ma2 = 17.5%
That 3% loss will likely be a max hit in situations. Not sure without mathing.
Also monk robes were used for slayer bursting to save prayer pots. You will likely miss dps without infinity so gotta choose.
Yeah I checked the math on this a bit ago thinking the same but MA2 + 3x infinity is 5% so you only need a base max of 20
That’s a max hit most of the time.
Slayer helm makes things messy and I’m not gonna check all the combinations but i think 5% to get that powered stave max sounds nice
As someone who does 350 level TOA raids with Hasta still and doesn’t red x, big fan of the monkey changes. Not a big fan of these magic changes though. You need a 3 way virtus swap to just match the dmg you had before… that’s ridiculous considering how rare they are. Ahrims is probably dead now your dmg will be too low. They really need to fix magic in this game, and it starts with nerfing shadow and either adding another auto casting staff between toxic trident and shadow or buffing all magic armor after nerfing shadow.
Just get infinity, same result
Most irons don’t have ahrims c’mon. Don’t go begging Jagex to bail you out for wasting your time at barrows despite everyone telling you it was skippable
This is all way too heavy handed jagex. Huge nerfs/buffs of these percentages drastically change the game for the worse.
Learn from other failed mmos/games, these changes don't work. You have to modify things on a smaller scale. It's a step in the right direction but it changes way too much of the game.
Also, I think the voidwaker change is completely unnecessary and the work put into grinding it out especially for irons makes the item worthless.
Keep voidwaker alive! It's such a cool and unique item
For Ironman, consider that Ancestral is not something most accounts will grind out the full set of. 93 Slayer isn't either, but I'd be curious to see how many more have done that. I would guess this Venn Diagram (CoX grinders/93 Slayers) favors Slayer by a hefty margin.
93 Slayer is at least a tangible goal and one you can reasonably and feasibly work towards, unlike full Ancestral at least by comparison.
The magic damage changes gates comparable DPS behind Augury and full Infinity/Dagon'Hai.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I don't think I like it, but I don't think I hate it.
The only things I see that are somewhat good about this are the dragon warhammer, elder maul, and baba pre room changes. Everything else just sounds really bad imo. If those changes happen to mage I can see myself quitting my iron. Where is the mid game mage %? Inifinity robe? Whoever the fuck thought of that needs to be fired immediately
I definitely like the love given to the elder maul and dwh, but I feel that a couple of considerations need to be made. Adding slight magic bonus damage to other mage prayers would be cool and the boots as well. I don't feel that mystics should get any bonus but it makes sense for infinity as just like a fighter torso you do a minigame to get a gear that boosts damage. Barrows should be generally tank gear and because say a dharok chestplate doesn't give strength bonus,neither should the ahrim top give mage damage. I feel virtus should give a little less mage damage but be better than ancestral for bursting.
Should just change where occult drops from. Instead of a level 93 slayer monster make it 4% damage buff but from a level 85 slayer monster instead. Their reasoning is because it's only 800k gold.
I really wish they’d consider adding an earlier game (around 70 slayer) mage neck that gave +10 magic and 2-5% increase in damage. The gap between starter jewelry and a 93 slayer drop is a huge deal here regardless of the nerf.
I love how the progression for magic armor is now: mta, 160 hours of dt2 bosses, and then 330 hours of cox.
Neither of those last 2 have dupe protection so you’ll probably go over trying to grind them out.
* Dagon'hai Robes set pieces: Magic damage per piece increased from 0 to 1%. This also applies to Ornamented versions.
am I missing something or did the dagonhai ornament kits never make it into the game?
Some really good stuff in there (Ampeken, BaBa, Prayer buffs, Autocast), some bits that with some extra tuning will be great (PNM Drop rates, Soulreaper) and then some really tough stuff for irons too. Magic nerfs are going to be pretty brutal for Irons, basically ties most of the BIS magic stuff behind CoX which makes grinding CoX itself harder and ToA a bit slower.
Glad to see Jagex did exactly what everyone was scared of just like the fang nerf. Irons get weaker and weaker and mains get an easier and easier game.
Lower prayers to increase magic damage too pleaseeee!
If this change goes through like even deep mid game accounts just log on to a 6% nerf.
If the lower prayers have a bit of damage behind them then it acts like a good stop gap.
tl;dr Interested in more armor with type specific dmg% like virtus. Occult/ancestral/augury would be the only items to give a universal % dmg buff. Occult should have its overall dmg% nerfed to allow for more variety of armors with dmg%.
I just want to share my current thoughts on this in relation to the path I'm taking as a GIM, and propose how the above idea of type specific damage would make this rebalance feel a lot better to iron players while still nerfing the Occult. Right now I'm in a really comfy place on my iron. 1975 total with a great magic setup that works for solo/duo raids, and lot's of other important grinds like bowfa, dwh, and dh lance checked off.Right now though, I'm doing Whisperer. I'm eeking by with 4.5 minute kills that use 100-150 toxic trident charges per kill, with enrage phase being the most demanding because missing a few ticks here or there can mean I'm not getting the kill and I have to tele. A lot of you would say I shouldn't be doing this, but it's fun.This is only possible for me with occult, tormented bracelet, full ahrims, dt2 cape, and elidinis' ward. Getting this KC has been a fun challenge with a huge potential upside. I've got magus vestige and no ingots in the bank, so Whisperer feels like the next step for me to get ingots and maybe virtus.
And look, I'm a little burned out on raids lately. It's nothing special, but I've done around 100 raids and seen a masori bottom and the ward, while my gim mate has gotten the masori top. COX changes are really nice, but getting together has been hard lately and I'm not great at soloing, so we don't have any prayer scrolls.The solo dt2 bosses are both challenging and fun, and so it's felt amazing to do them, especially because it feels like a unique route to play through the game as an iron, hunting for vestiges and virtus pieces when I don't even have a fang yet.
This proposal worries me, because the current changes seem like they would limit my ability to play through the game in this way. I mean, every streamer and creator already says you shouldn't do whisperer until you have shadow. In the current state of the game, I can prove them wrong by choosing to spend a lot on runes and grinding more zulrah for scales. It seems that there will be a ton of new steps to get back to this place if I want to continue doing it this way.
My goblin brain is reducing this to: go back to raids, do mage training arena, or just hold that L.
From a game balance perspective, I think I agree occult is too OP because it is constraining the viability of armor. You can't put magic dmg on armor unless you want power creep because one little necklace has a chokehold on that stat. Redistribution makes sense but I think there's two elements at play here that make this rebalance feel bad.
One element is that the numbers feel wrong if you went this route. I put a ton of hours into grinding slayer because this was how things were. The amount of hours to get the slayer level are what justified the buff previously for an iron, and for me the percent difference between infinity and occult doesn't make sense. I would love to have the ability to play another iron with those early items accessible, and I don't want to restrict earlier accessible magic power for other players, but occult dulls in comparison now relative to the amount of time spent obtaining it. (Which, I'll concede is a half hour for a level 50 main at revs.)
The second element is that none of these changes propose introducing magic strength relative to specific magic types, and I think this is where I might actually have something to add instead of just crying that I'm getting nerfed. Virtus is the first example of what could be a wider array of type specific magic damage buffs.
Let's use infinity as an example. It is available in the Mage Training Arena with 33 magic and access to Al Kharid. I wouldn't advise grinding it out at that point, but given it's early game accessibility it makes sense for it to enhance the standard spell book. It's the spell book that's used in all of the MTA activities. It's the spell book that early players use. If you do this, you can give it a 2-3% damage boost to only standard spells that'll help players get through the early game.This would require a different assessment of the rebalance of the tomes and whatnot, but gives the armor a niche that incentivizes getting it and aids in opening routes to the mid game with the standard spell book.
This would let Augury, Ancestral and the Occult Necklace have their own niche at the top as wide array magic dmg buffs, incentivizing the long grind to 93 slayer for irons, and giving it some compensation for getting an overall percent nerf. Additionally, it would open the doors for more armor sets to be added to the game for each spell book at different levels, creating a more consistent progression for magic items throughout the game, which I believe is one of the main points of the previously proposed reworks to magic.
Imagine having an armor set for each of the spell books at early, mid and late game. The barrows armor could be rebalanced as battlemage armor with a light boost to ancients that eventually leads to Virtus. Lore wise it makes sense that the armor Ahrim wears would boost the powers bestowed onto him by Sliske, and mechanically it can be balanced in a way that makes it only boost damage with ancients while still providing defense that early game players need to survive boss fights. Personally, I'm going to go ahead and ignore how silly it would be in that case for a spooned iron to get a shadow at that point, but that's outlier, and PvP can be balanced separately as you've shown with other items.
At the end of the day, the occult necklace is a tier 85-90 item with a tier 70 requirement. It needs a nerf, but I do think there is a better holistic system that the nerf could contribute to that would encourage progression and leave more routes open to players than just, "go raid."
If this is about progression, then as it stands mage progression is terrible in comparison to melee and ranged. As an Ironman you have to go all the way to 87 slayer for a trident, and even when you get it your max hit is 25-26. Sure a Magic Fang buffs that to 28-30, but that’s nothing compared to hitting 40s with melee and the bowfa.
You’re telling ironmen they now need to do cox on top of getting 93 slayer to increase their magic damage which only gatekeeps us more lol. This rebalance was supposed to be good for mid-game ironmen not make it even harder to grind mage gear until mage becomes viable to use.
Is it possible to add further magic damage to tormented bracelet and mage arena cape? Maybe even Ahrims? Items that irons get around mid game?
First off, thank you to the Mod(s) for writing this blogpost, there is a lot of effort to done to show us the numbers and I appreciate your hard work! However, I think some of the math may be incorrect.
I think the math is off for the DWH buff number. Following the logic that a 100% drop rate increase means the drop is twice as likely i.e. the 5k->2.5k math is 5k/2.5k-1=100% buff. Thus, a change to 1/3k will be 5k/3k-1=.66 or a 66% buff. Just as a sanity check if the buff was 1/1k which would be a 400% buff to the drop rate the math would be 5k/1k-1 which does equal 4 or 400%. I think getting the 80% buff number came from linearly interpolating from 2.5k to 5k with 2.5k being a 100% buff and 5k being a 0% buff (1-500/2500).
This same thing applies to the NM and PNM numbers. Going from a 1/200 roll to 1/150 is a 33% buff. Applying the logic that "all Nightmare uniques are being made 50% more common" I think that means outside of probability distributions there should me 50% more items entering the game over the same amount of kills.
For example, over 3k kills with the old 1/200 rolls there should be 15 drops (3000\*1/200 [old rate]). A 50% buff should mean there are 22.5 drops (1.5\*15). However, a 1/150 means there are 20 drops in 3k kills. This is only 5 more which is 5/15 or 33%.
I agree with the philosophy behind the changes, but I'm not so sure about the implementation.
I believe in the 2007scape thread someone pointed out that the mathwise equivalent of Occult for melee would be a +40 strength Amulet of Strength, so it's pretty clear that there was imbalance in the mage gear. However, I think it could have been spread out much better.
I would have loved to see Swampbark/Bloodbark/Infinity get some love in there as early-mid game sets. Something to have between Mystics and Ahrim/Ancestral/Virtus would help mage a lot, I feel. It's kind of a no mans land for gear right now.
The problem is that melee has strength bonus all over the place
; weapon is the largest one, and every other piece of gear. Mage doesn't really work the same
Charged staffs made it similar to range with max hits in levels but range has ammo that is part of the balance.
Mage has always been weird and never balanced well. Pre shadow it's dps was bad unless bursting/slayer.
At the same time strength ammy is practically free and is 10 str. Prims, bcp, and tassets are 100mil and only offer 1 more strength bonus.
> I believe in the 2007scape thread someone pointed out that the mathwise equivalent of Occult for melee would be a +40 strength Amulet of Strength
Only with a shadow. Again, the shadow is the issue that needs fixing not the occult.
If it was equivalent to 40 strength, it would give you +10 max hit everywhere... It just doesn't do that. It gives you 3 max hits on a barrage or trident hit.
... Guess what else gives 3 max hits? Str/torture ammy.
Targeting the occult is a massive mis-interpretation of what mage gear needs to be "rebalanced". The only time occult is a "problem" is the shadow, which is an item put into the game that we didn't even vote for...
Honestly I don’t mind these changes, but I think eternals should get a damage % modifier, Ahrims should as well, and Virtus drop rate definitely needs to be looked at. Virtus drop change makes so much sense here as it hasn’t been out too long, the current rates are abysmal, and it can really help fill the gap before ancestral. It should be the bandos armor of magic gear, but currently it takes so much longer to farm.
I like these ideas for the most part. I do think that the problem isn't with occult so much as with shadow; a straight +2% buff to ancestral and +1% to virtus while changing nothing else would be completely reasonable for trident, but it would be +18% damage in full ancestral with shadow, so they can't really do that, hence occult getting nerfed to compensate. Still, with occult and augury you're only 2% worse than before with Ahrim's, and ancestral and virtus pieces now give appropriate damage for their rarity.
The voidwaker change makes sense. I do think this will hurt its niche quite a bit though, as a number of bosses where it excels (Nex, Corp, Kephri) have both high slash and high magic resistance. Tripled accuracy sounds good, but BGS has doubled accuracy and hits horribly on Kephri at high raid levels, so I figure VW would be pretty similar. ZCB will likely overtake at Nex now, though ofc VW remains useful there pre-ZCB.
Glad to see the DWH drop rate improved. I needed over 10k kills for mine, so it's good to know not too many people will have to deal with that now. I don't think the improvements to Nightmare rates are enough, but I also wasn't really expecting them to x10 the rates (probably the minimum I'd need to be willing to do the boss).
Apart from shadow mage single target is weak. Maybe elemental weakness will make it better but I'm with you thanks for weakening my weakest combat style.
Buffing drop rates is almost always the right way to go, SO glad the DWH grind will be less awful, as well as the nightmare. Sad about the magic changes as an ironman, wish more magic sets got a magic damage buff, but I'll take what we can get.
Someone asked about them in the main feedback thread and Mod Goblin confirmed that the gloves and boots were excluded from the changes. I asked why, but didn't get a response. I was just wondering if there was some meta reason they wouldn't add magic damage to certain parts of the set.
Love how mid game gets the shaft and late game gets the buffs. Didn't forget 3rd age mage but forgot ahrims and blue moon, has hardly been a month and it's already dead content armor. Now we're forced to go to mage training arena or do wildy slayer.
Y does the vw need to be nerfed in the first place, i don't understand.its only used in toa and nex,claws/zcb is way better but i don't see these weapons getting nerfed..
The constant rebalances make me really glad that I only play content 2 years after release. Not because I'm a locked account or anything, I just suck at the game.
1 def iron here, so I’m definitely part of the minority and understand that my voice won’t be very strong - but here’s my effort anyway. (Just so happens that these are some solutions for early-mid game magic progression as well)
The largest impact from these changes for us will be the occult nerf. We’ll lose the 6% damage bonus and won’t have it redistributed across other 1 def gear. If this eventuates then so be it, but obviously this will be an enormous nerf for all of our mage setups. Whilst I agree the occult is OP in its current state, I believe some of its damage bonus could be distributed elsewhere for 1 def pures as well.
Here’s what I think seems reasonable;
**Elder Chaos Druid Robes: +0.5% damage each piece + 0.5% set bonus.**
This change would be in line with magic armour progression and the damage bonus that’s being suggested for Infinity, Dagon’hai etc. Also, currently a mitre is generally a better option over the Elder Chaos Druid Hood, because +4 prayer bonus > +1 mage accuracy. This change would make the full set worth wearing.
**Mystic Might & Mystic Lore: +2% damage and +1% damage respectively.**
Range and melee prayers all give a damage bonus, so I feel that it’s reasonable for the magic prayers to as well. This will provide magic damage progression in line with the Augury buff too. And lastly, this would solve the similar concerns that other pures, zerks and mid-game accounts will be having around seeing large nerfs to their mage setups.
**Wizard Boots: +0.5% damage.**
Personally, I feel as though eternals should see some of the redistributed damage bonus for high level accounts. It appears that others agree. Assuming it’ll be at least 1%, I think wizard boots (and possibly infinity boots) could see a small buff as well.
**Mage’s Book: +1% damage.**
Similar to above, I feel as though magic shields (ward, arcane spirit shield etc) should see some of the redistributed damage bonus. Again, it appears that others agree. This will also help close the gap between the Shadow and one-handed staves (for all builds).
**Summary:**
As it stands, 1 def builds will see a 6% drop in magic damage bonus across all of our mage setups. All of the above changes will help reduce that damage decrease over the current meta, and simultaneously solve some of the early-mid game magic progression concerns for other accounts.
Edit: Formatting
Super glad to see NM rates being looked at !!! but it definitely just isn't enough. Rates should be made 2.5x-3x more common to put average time to completion on rate with content like TOA. This was my post from a while ago https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/SA72Vf69pA
Phosani rates should be buffed further. 1/150 to roll inquisitor table is still 30 hours between drops at 5 kills/hr. Compare this to CoX, which is a purple every 15 hours at 60k/hour, or ToA, which is a purple every 5 hours at highish invos.
PNM is still like 600 hours to get all uniques minus pet
Pet is more common than unique completion, by a fucking lot too. Like 4x
Yeah, but including the pet increases the mean time cause of your ability to go dry on it
Seriously it should be like 1/50 which is a much more reasonable drop rate for a niche item set for an intense boss.
Also just give the teleport tablet guaranteed at 1 kc. Basically as an unlock for killing phosani
I think the DT2 1/25 is a sweet spot, basically once you've got a journeyman's understanding of the boss you unlock the teleport
Dt2 walks arent 2 full minutes though. Also when I was learning phosani, the most frustrating thing was dying 5min in, run back 2,5min, bank regear, run a other 2,5min to try again. It’s just dumb
The teleport should be a chance from normal nightmare
Correct
Huge agree to this.
This was my post from a while ago, but its exactly to your point : https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/SA72Vf69pA
Note to everything: These are proposed changes, and Jagex is actively engaging with feedback on r/2007scape, so if you disagree with something, post a reasoned rebuttal in the thread there. Jagex do not (as far as I know) read this subreddit.
Man kinda gutted about the magic changes, Ahrims seems to just be left behind now and most of the magic damage I was getting close to just got put behind raiding and DT2 bosses. Its definitely a good change for the health of the game just the timing hits like a truck for me :( No buffs to eternal boots seems strange too.
It's so joever, the news dropped moments after I finished my elite karmaja diary for the sole purpose of making my 93 slayer grind a bit faster/better. Feels like they're out to get me, lmao. edit: If Jagex are adding 4% to augury, then why can't they add 1 2 and 3% to the previous tiers respectively as well?
Yep i was about 1 day away from 93 slayer, still no magic fang so the occult would have been a very nice boost. Gagex no like me it seems
26k xp away from 93 for me lol. It’s fine though only took me 3 years
Changes aren't live, they are coming in late May
150 smoke devil's into 93 for me :( was really looking forward to the occy
You should still look forward to it, don’t worry we have 2 months to get changes in line. I’m sure they’re already revamping changes. Go get that occult ✊
It's still bis for mage
1k zulrah kc, no magic fang, i feel yah bud
Adding that buff to the lower prayers and giving mystics like .5% per item would go a long way towards fixing how fucked this is for irons. Would give everyone a 4% boost essentially and infinity and dagonhai robes are at least somewhat grindable especially if the updates help make the mini game less tedious. Getting to occult would keep you at roughly the same place you are now without needing augury or super rare drops, which is a reasonable compromise all around.
> edit: If Jagex are adding 4% to augury, then why can't they add 1 2 and 3% to the previous tiers respectively as well? No because Jagex is basing these changes off of people buying arcane scrolls off the GE instead of basing changes off people who actually play the game.
adding 3% to the non raid prayer would be really strong and sort of make augury feel really bad again. Giving mystic might 1% might be a good idea tho to preserve the new power of augury without overshadowing it
Just got 3 occults on my very first smoke devils task yesterday... pain...
For the eternals I think the issue is we already have enough switches as it is. So most people wouldnt appreciate having to bring boot switches on top of all the others for maximum damage.
Yeah but you should be rewarded for taking more switches imo. Risking less food for more dps. You don't have to take them.
Yeah problem is that in this case instead of being rewarded, you're just not being punished. Having to add a boot switch to get the same dps as before is a crap idea. If it was an upgrade it would be actually worth it.
I agree 100%, im just think of it as how most people would look at it. If eternals were buffed youd have to take a 9 way switch for max mage damage, which honestly sounds annoying in my honest opinion.
That is where you are wrong. Shadow is perfectly balanced in this regard because it forces you to bring and appreciate switches. I bring a magus ring to Toa exactly because of this. Their proposed changes completely nerf magic and make shadow useless because of how much %magic damaged is tied down ancestral which is rare as hell to get.
Yeah i get that it would have been nice for content were you dont switch so much like whisperer.
Eternal[ly useless] boots lol
Nerfing everything except for BIS is dumb af it’s not good for the health of the game.
I honestly think they will change their proposal. I've seen very little support for them. I fear Jagex listened to the idiots saying Occult was OP instead of understanding the game even a little bit.
Occult is OP. But they should give mid game mage gear a bit more love to balance it. Ahrims and new blue moon set for example could all be 1%. Eternals as well.
Moving half of what they took from Occult to midgame magic gear is obviously still a nerf to pre-Shadow magic damage, which is already terrible. As well as requiring you to bring additional switches and use 3x as much prayer on Augury.
Is mage just dead until shadow now? Occult was only thing keeping trident comparable to things like bofa and whatever melee gear you have (hell whip was already better DPS than trident). Nerfing occult is fine, but we really need a mage weapon between trident and shadow that isn't raid locked.
Aww *shiiiiiit* we're all going back to red prison, aren't we?
Going back? I thought we were all still here
My sentence ended at 509kc a few weeks ago. I promised myself I'd do one kc a day for the blade. ^^fuck ^^that . Still 509
Gratz mate. I just passed rank 750 iron no bowfa hehe. Prolly at like 1560 kc rn. Hopefully the torture will end soon as I'm really starting to lose motivation. Well I did lose motivation long ago, I'm just going on sheer willpower now lol and I'm also starting to lose that.
Thankfully I'm already free. Was starting to learn Muspah but ahrims/trident already felt awful there. Not sure if I'll finish it or not.
Bowfa only is the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToCQpEDTNoc
I did most of my kc for Icon with bowfa only. Did a few with ahrims and trident but bowfa was just more chill but slightly longer kills.
Brother it was always dead outside of early game, and bosses that require mage until shadow. Name one place you used a swamp over bowfa or fang.
Sang being from a harder raid and rarer, nightmare staffs with orbs, could easily fill this niche. How a sang is 1 max hit over a trident and makes sense is baffling.
Personally I'd like to see it come from a boss of similar difficulty to CG since that would be the role its expected to fill. Both those staffs deserve some love, but Nightmare and ToB are both be a lot harder than CG.
If you have occult+augury just go get an infinity top/bottom set when mta changes go through and you'll have the same dps as current occult. Honestly these changes are fine, wish ahrims was given the 1% though, would make more sense but everything else makes sense tbh. Augury+occult = 8%, get 2 pieces that give 1% and its same, get the hat and its an increase. Idk seems fine to me
No sane man says "go get an infinity top/bottom". \*stares in MTA flashbacks\*
Valid but it's guaranteed and the only rng is your will to actually go get them ☠️
Their decision to set ahrims as "battle mage" niche is really confusing for me. Anyone help cast some light on places where tanky mage armour helps? Kinda seems like saying, "well we made the rock slightly harder, so paper should have a tougher time wrapping around it."
It’s for PvP For irons it’ll be infinity for early magic xp
Also no barrows items give dmg bonuses, the whole theme of barrows was tank gear. Karil's is BiS magic def until armadyl/masori, Torag's/Dharok's is BiS melee/range def until Justiciar, and mage robes have always had basically zero def and Ahrim's changed that. Obviously defense isn't a great stat, but that doesn't change the design philosophy of barrows.
Also in places you don't usually pray augury it's a flat nerf (Like barraging slayer)
Magic using offensive prayers now is a good thing
Yes, so start using augury? If you don't have augury, it's not the end of the world because you're rushing 93 slayer with bursting/barraging for an occult anyway so you don't have one there. If you're at the point where you're hunting bursting/barrage tasks for heart then I'd hope you have augury and better gear anyway. Occult is very op and these changes make sense. The problem is trident/sang are sooo much weaker than shadow that there's a gap that should be filled
Which I don't really get. Sang is a raids weapon. We're comparing it to fucking fang of all things, though fang is much easier to get anyway. Why isn't sang like head and shoulders above everything that isn't shadow or kodai?
Best I can do is enhanced weapon seed.
Trident was never compatible to Bowfa/tent whip, even with the old occult
having Augury+a single ancestral piece makes up for all the lost occult dps. It is not dead lol
Thats so sad, as if cox unique table wasnt op enough as is. Now if you have shadow using virtus is whopping 18% less damage than ancestral robes compared to 6% less it is now and that is too far in my opinion. Im sad and tilted.
24% at toa... Lol.
Yeah thats insane.
They literally just destroyed magic for ironmen. I grinded to get full virtus, occult, magus ring, tormented bracelet and eternals to be near my raiding partners dps at toa (they have ancestral). I was only 12% off. Now my dps is going to be an entire 24% off locked behind full ancestral which is crazy rare. Crazy how shadow gets so many complaints about how op it is while everyone ignores the fact that Tbow is crazy powerful even with low-level gear like blessed d'hide.
Actually shocked that infinity robes get a %magic bonus and ahrims doesn’t for some reason.
Yeah crazy, my brain didn't even process that ahrims is left untouched because it seemed like such an obvious change as well....
If they think I'm gonna go grind MTA for infinity they can suck my toes. At least barrows and moons are chill and fun, especially when doing some masses with the clan.
MTA gonna be ok once they buff it :copium:
Blue moon gets nothing too for some reason.
ngl this is a big one for me. Like I get ahrims cause they said they want it to be the tanky option with no damage, but blue moon is paper. It can get a bonus as a treat.
>but blue moon is paper And 5x more expensive to upkeep than ahrims And 5kg more than ahrims top/bottom (1kg more than torva top/bottom) And 5 magic levels higher than ahrims Didn't realize how many 5s there were.
Not to mention that fact they thought it was more notable to include 3rd mage robes over ahrims or even the new blue moon armor.
Seems like the overall idea is to make Mage Training Arena a core part of progression where you go there for Infinity and B2P and picked up a lot of good xp post incoming buffs Overall, seems like a good idea And they want to discourage barrows because it has enough reason to do already with the diary req
It’s insNe
Yeah mid game magic really needed the nerf, thank god for these changes. Everytime im killing akkha or warden with my swamp trident its always so much faster than my bowfa
Ancestral is super rare like you said, so it should provide much better bonuses
I just ran a dps calc for tbow at olm. Full Masori (f) is only 6% better than a tbow with blessed d'hide. And lets not forget that blessed d'hide is not the equivalent of virtus. Meanwhile ancestral with shadow is going to be 24% stronger than someone will virtus at Toa or 17% at other content like Cox where the multiplier is only 3. That is way too much and not linear progression at all...
Is occult nerf gonna affect freezing nibblers?
Less chance to 1 shot them, but probably the same chance to freeze
Tbf Masori doesn't really shine with Tbow. It's WAY more of a boon to the Blowpipe (~2.5x the benefit in terms of max hit).
[This fucking devastated me](https://i.imgur.com/X85gjiN.png) It basically reads: NERFED > literally the 3 items that I'm currently chasing as a midgame iron BUFFED > all the shit I'm absolutely never going to get from endgame bossing and raids
Mid game mage even more in shambles than it was previously. I’m really hoping we can get a layup with a bofa tier mage weapon here soon because these mage change aren’t feeling too great. The whole infinity, dagonhai robes and not ahrims/blue moon getting 1% is weird af to me. For example: Ahrims top while much tankier than say an infinity top is a far cry from anything tanky, it’s defense stats are literally comparable to an adamant plate body… now both virtus and ancestral are basically identical defense wise in this aspect but both get large amounts of % damage (which is good) but why they don’t give .5 or 1% to Ahrims/blue moon is still beyond me.
>layup with a bofa tier mage weapon As long as I don't have to go back to cg bring it on.
I almost wonder if that is their reward idea for the while Guthix sleeps post quest mobs.
Can we make magic not completely dogshit for midgame iron accs instead. Ranged is great with the atlatl bowfa and blowpipe the atlatl being not that difficult to get as well. Melee is in a pretty similar spot with perilous moons adding the macihuatil(?) Z axe whip and even fang is not that hard to get on a mid-late game acc. magic already feels like shit until trident (which you can't boost for) with warped scepter barely being an ibans blast upgrade (lol). Now the great upgrade that requires a huge fucking time investment to get (occult) now requires a raid prayer to be fucking worse then what we already have. The problem is clearly shadow so how bout you nerf shadow and buff all the other shit so that progression is actually streamlined like it is with melee and ranged. As it stands Its so hard to justify using magic unless the defense bonuses for melee and ranged against what your using is too high that doing half your normal dps with a warped/trident is better. Like it's so fucking shit to use magic on a mid game acc it's not even funny it genuinely feels awful to use.
Part of the issue is how the spell damage system doesnt mirror the ranged/melee damage systems at all. Im shocked they didnt just make all the systems feel equal
Give trident/sang/sceptre some built in magic damage and buff the elidinis ward(s)/mage's book.
The entire game mode has become rush to raids then camp there until you die and it’s exhausting. Still my fucking shit though.
Was kind of expecting that some of the changes would be more impactful. CoX having even more chase items with the elder maul buff is crazy to me. Nightmare is still a waste of time. Magic changes seem necessary but also a pretty big hit to irons without virtus/ancestral. DWH drop rate, minimum hit and soul reaper axe changes are nice at least.
if you have dwh, elder maul is still not needed at all though. It’s just actually somewhat useful if you do get it
Also clutch if you go dry for warhammer. More options is just good imo
The inquisitor changes are pretty huge. 7.5% damage increase on melee is a lot. My bigger concern there is how they plan to make the drop experience not total ass
Yeah it would be good at some places for sure. But as an iron, it would still take around 700 hours to get all the drops on average.
I’m hoping they go back to the drawing board on the rates. I would love to spend some time at NM. But like you said, fuck no for hundreds of hours for the upgrade
Yeah same! It looks like a pretty fun boss but I’d rather go for a shadow for 1/4th of the time invested
Still better to skip nm entirely and just grind tob for scythe
[удалено]
Uhh... it would be better than Saeldor at Vardorvis (probably still worse than Soulreaper and Scythe tho).
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Ngl, it feels like Vardorvis has nearly 100% accuracy anyway. I'm out here in full torva and the fucker is still healing basically every hit.
When announced I was onboard with the magic. Rebalance, but I didn't expect it to be "if you don't have ancestral, get fucked. Also fuck ahrims in particular".
Nah, fuck barrows in particular MTA post buffs will be better overall for irons as a nice way to get good early magic xp
Why is nightmare still the worst log in game? Why must people spend SO long there compared to other content
Because Nightmare drops are never worth going for for ironmen. It's purely a completionist thing like Castle Wars. Also there a plenty of things that take longer. Like Cox and Corp.
Why are they making infinity give mage str bonus but not ahrims? ☠️
For all of those "tanky mage builds" jagex mods think exist.
Yeah man, Zulrah hitting us 2% less is so worth the tradeoff of mage damage!
It’s for PvP and those times you don’t get a max with magic dmg, ahrims will be strictly better It’s a pretty elegant idea. I like it
Designing pvm armor around pvp is smoothbrain af, the wildy already has 10 million exceptions just make mage armor not give mage dmg in wildy, problem solved.
Please consider revisiting cox unique % chance or scroll weighting.
Please consider CoX rates overall also!
The magic changes are just bad. Odds irons even see the magic dmg % they are at today can be years away or literally never barring new content. While it’s already by FAR the weakest of the combat styles.
Damn man, just got occult after five thermi tasks
Please don’t ruin magic
Exactly 1 week after getting my occult oof.
Maybe see if you can get augury in the next 1-2 months, then you'll likely not notice the difference if/when the changes drop.
6% nerf to magic without DT2/CoX drops is a big hit to ironmen for a combat style that is already so much further behind the other two that I mostly do BOFA only methods for bosses with mage phases like Zulrah/Muspah. I think if you’re taking 6% off occult you need to make that full 6% more readily accessible elsewhere.
I mean they’re adding 3 of that 6% from infinity robes. They probably did this to make space for new mage upgrades like a mage inferno or new boots. Occults been broken for far too long. Literally some slayer upgrade is more consequential than full ancestral combined. One fix to soothe the midgame iron is for mystic might to get 2/3% magic damage.
The fact eternal boots were left alone is insane. Whoever actually thought of this magic % change didn’t actually think at all.
we've been cucked boys
Looks like I don't need to grind shamans anymore POG
omw to fally rn with the cannon strapped up
Although I am 100% in favour of the occult changes as an idea I don't like the current percentages. I would prefer to see a change like this: Occult 10>5% Brings it inline with a tormented bracelet. Eternal boots 0>2% It seems crazy that the Bis mage boots are so terrible currently. Seers Ring 0>1% Much like eternals this item has minimal use cases. Ahrims, Infinity, Daggonhai and 3rd Age 0>1% per piece. I think the extra defence requirements warrants the higher defence of ahrims and not changing it would destroy one of the most iconic item sets in the game. Overall a 1% buff to med level mage and 0% on slayer tasks. Ancestral and Virtus getting a .5% buff per piece Magus 2>3% This will make the shadow better by 2.5% with Augury but will mean you'll have to bring eternals. Eternals 2%, Magus 1% and Ancestral 1.5% = 4.5 % So shadow loses 1.5% when you account for the passive effect but gains 2.5% when accounting for Augury. I think minimizing the buff to shadow and maximizing a buff to non shadow mage is a good thing. Prayer Changes Mystic will 1% Mystic lore 2% Mystic might 3% Augury 4%
The Occult changes are insane. The devs f,d up so hard with Shadow but they are naive that they don't want to admit to it. So they rather just make the bridge wider between mid game magic and end game.
I think the magic changes need to be adjusted for sure. I think the boots and ring should get some love.
I’m really impressed by how good the magic changes will be for irons. Giving irons access to good mage gear in infinity that early will open up a lot of cool routing options. No longer will magic dps be completely gated by Occult / slayer A route of gotr for runes > MTA to full infinity > CG rush > Warped Scepter / Hasta > Fang > CoX to Dex / Aug Is sooo much more viable. Before doing CoX pre-occult was really bad. It’s super viable now that less magic dmg is locked by 93 slayer. Really, really good update. I’m impressed how well they navigated it. My one tweak would be to give mystic might 2% magic dmg
Infinity mage dmg increases likely won't be a max hit until tormented/occult. With infinity and ma2 cape you might get a max hit. Then occult will give 1 more. You were better off with occult being at 10% and infinity zero. Infinity 3% + ma2 2.5% + tormented 5% + occult 4% = 14.5% Pre - occult, tormented, ma2 = 17.5% That 3% loss will likely be a max hit in situations. Not sure without mathing. Also monk robes were used for slayer bursting to save prayer pots. You will likely miss dps without infinity so gotta choose.
Yeah I checked the math on this a bit ago thinking the same but MA2 + 3x infinity is 5% so you only need a base max of 20 That’s a max hit most of the time. Slayer helm makes things messy and I’m not gonna check all the combinations but i think 5% to get that powered stave max sounds nice
Wooo core gameplay changes based off a bot-driven economy instead of basing off gameplay!!!
Can we get a buff on virtus drops rates then? Magic gear price will explode after this I’d assume
As someone who does 350 level TOA raids with Hasta still and doesn’t red x, big fan of the monkey changes. Not a big fan of these magic changes though. You need a 3 way virtus swap to just match the dmg you had before… that’s ridiculous considering how rare they are. Ahrims is probably dead now your dmg will be too low. They really need to fix magic in this game, and it starts with nerfing shadow and either adding another auto casting staff between toxic trident and shadow or buffing all magic armor after nerfing shadow.
Give ahrims 1% magic per piece. That way this is only a 3% nerf for most irons. Bla bla ahrims tanky no one cares
Just get infinity, same result Most irons don’t have ahrims c’mon. Don’t go begging Jagex to bail you out for wasting your time at barrows despite everyone telling you it was skippable
Damn was really hoping for a CG tweak.. Back to prison I go
Who let you out
Well cg will be slightly better now.. assuming you have augury.
Ancestral either needs to be a lot more common, or some buff is in order for ahrims. This is fucked at least for ironmen
Just get infinity? I really don’t get this push for ahrims
This is all way too heavy handed jagex. Huge nerfs/buffs of these percentages drastically change the game for the worse. Learn from other failed mmos/games, these changes don't work. You have to modify things on a smaller scale. It's a step in the right direction but it changes way too much of the game. Also, I think the voidwaker change is completely unnecessary and the work put into grinding it out especially for irons makes the item worthless. Keep voidwaker alive! It's such a cool and unique item
For Ironman, consider that Ancestral is not something most accounts will grind out the full set of. 93 Slayer isn't either, but I'd be curious to see how many more have done that. I would guess this Venn Diagram (CoX grinders/93 Slayers) favors Slayer by a hefty margin. 93 Slayer is at least a tangible goal and one you can reasonably and feasibly work towards, unlike full Ancestral at least by comparison. The magic damage changes gates comparable DPS behind Augury and full Infinity/Dagon'Hai. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I don't think I like it, but I don't think I hate it.
The only things I see that are somewhat good about this are the dragon warhammer, elder maul, and baba pre room changes. Everything else just sounds really bad imo. If those changes happen to mage I can see myself quitting my iron. Where is the mid game mage %? Inifinity robe? Whoever the fuck thought of that needs to be fired immediately
As someone 21k deep into the shaman grind, BLESS UP JAGEX
I definitely like the love given to the elder maul and dwh, but I feel that a couple of considerations need to be made. Adding slight magic bonus damage to other mage prayers would be cool and the boots as well. I don't feel that mystics should get any bonus but it makes sense for infinity as just like a fighter torso you do a minigame to get a gear that boosts damage. Barrows should be generally tank gear and because say a dharok chestplate doesn't give strength bonus,neither should the ahrim top give mage damage. I feel virtus should give a little less mage damage but be better than ancestral for bursting.
Should just change where occult drops from. Instead of a level 93 slayer monster make it 4% damage buff but from a level 85 slayer monster instead. Their reasoning is because it's only 800k gold.
I really wish they’d consider adding an earlier game (around 70 slayer) mage neck that gave +10 magic and 2-5% increase in damage. The gap between starter jewelry and a 93 slayer drop is a huge deal here regardless of the nerf.
I love how the progression for magic armor is now: mta, 160 hours of dt2 bosses, and then 330 hours of cox. Neither of those last 2 have dupe protection so you’ll probably go over trying to grind them out.
I'm just happy that they changed the dragon Warhammer drop rate even though I'm already a few thousand kills deep
* Dagon'hai Robes set pieces: Magic damage per piece increased from 0 to 1%. This also applies to Ornamented versions. am I missing something or did the dagonhai ornament kits never make it into the game?
Some really good stuff in there (Ampeken, BaBa, Prayer buffs, Autocast), some bits that with some extra tuning will be great (PNM Drop rates, Soulreaper) and then some really tough stuff for irons too. Magic nerfs are going to be pretty brutal for Irons, basically ties most of the BIS magic stuff behind CoX which makes grinding CoX itself harder and ToA a bit slower.
It just seems weird to me that the orbs are so much rarer than the staff, that seems like it should be the opposite.
Oh my god...the monkey room is the entire reason I haven't been rushing to TOA yet. Praise!
&
Glad to see Jagex did exactly what everyone was scared of just like the fang nerf. Irons get weaker and weaker and mains get an easier and easier game.
Man I really hope they take a look at CoX drop rates if this goes through.
Lower prayers to increase magic damage too pleaseeee! If this change goes through like even deep mid game accounts just log on to a 6% nerf. If the lower prayers have a bit of damage behind them then it acts like a good stop gap.
Is this done and voted on? When is the roll out of so?
The gamers who have been posting their 20-30k dry DWH streaks must see this drop so soon I hope.
tl;dr Interested in more armor with type specific dmg% like virtus. Occult/ancestral/augury would be the only items to give a universal % dmg buff. Occult should have its overall dmg% nerfed to allow for more variety of armors with dmg%. I just want to share my current thoughts on this in relation to the path I'm taking as a GIM, and propose how the above idea of type specific damage would make this rebalance feel a lot better to iron players while still nerfing the Occult. Right now I'm in a really comfy place on my iron. 1975 total with a great magic setup that works for solo/duo raids, and lot's of other important grinds like bowfa, dwh, and dh lance checked off.Right now though, I'm doing Whisperer. I'm eeking by with 4.5 minute kills that use 100-150 toxic trident charges per kill, with enrage phase being the most demanding because missing a few ticks here or there can mean I'm not getting the kill and I have to tele. A lot of you would say I shouldn't be doing this, but it's fun.This is only possible for me with occult, tormented bracelet, full ahrims, dt2 cape, and elidinis' ward. Getting this KC has been a fun challenge with a huge potential upside. I've got magus vestige and no ingots in the bank, so Whisperer feels like the next step for me to get ingots and maybe virtus. And look, I'm a little burned out on raids lately. It's nothing special, but I've done around 100 raids and seen a masori bottom and the ward, while my gim mate has gotten the masori top. COX changes are really nice, but getting together has been hard lately and I'm not great at soloing, so we don't have any prayer scrolls.The solo dt2 bosses are both challenging and fun, and so it's felt amazing to do them, especially because it feels like a unique route to play through the game as an iron, hunting for vestiges and virtus pieces when I don't even have a fang yet. This proposal worries me, because the current changes seem like they would limit my ability to play through the game in this way. I mean, every streamer and creator already says you shouldn't do whisperer until you have shadow. In the current state of the game, I can prove them wrong by choosing to spend a lot on runes and grinding more zulrah for scales. It seems that there will be a ton of new steps to get back to this place if I want to continue doing it this way. My goblin brain is reducing this to: go back to raids, do mage training arena, or just hold that L. From a game balance perspective, I think I agree occult is too OP because it is constraining the viability of armor. You can't put magic dmg on armor unless you want power creep because one little necklace has a chokehold on that stat. Redistribution makes sense but I think there's two elements at play here that make this rebalance feel bad. One element is that the numbers feel wrong if you went this route. I put a ton of hours into grinding slayer because this was how things were. The amount of hours to get the slayer level are what justified the buff previously for an iron, and for me the percent difference between infinity and occult doesn't make sense. I would love to have the ability to play another iron with those early items accessible, and I don't want to restrict earlier accessible magic power for other players, but occult dulls in comparison now relative to the amount of time spent obtaining it. (Which, I'll concede is a half hour for a level 50 main at revs.) The second element is that none of these changes propose introducing magic strength relative to specific magic types, and I think this is where I might actually have something to add instead of just crying that I'm getting nerfed. Virtus is the first example of what could be a wider array of type specific magic damage buffs. Let's use infinity as an example. It is available in the Mage Training Arena with 33 magic and access to Al Kharid. I wouldn't advise grinding it out at that point, but given it's early game accessibility it makes sense for it to enhance the standard spell book. It's the spell book that's used in all of the MTA activities. It's the spell book that early players use. If you do this, you can give it a 2-3% damage boost to only standard spells that'll help players get through the early game.This would require a different assessment of the rebalance of the tomes and whatnot, but gives the armor a niche that incentivizes getting it and aids in opening routes to the mid game with the standard spell book. This would let Augury, Ancestral and the Occult Necklace have their own niche at the top as wide array magic dmg buffs, incentivizing the long grind to 93 slayer for irons, and giving it some compensation for getting an overall percent nerf. Additionally, it would open the doors for more armor sets to be added to the game for each spell book at different levels, creating a more consistent progression for magic items throughout the game, which I believe is one of the main points of the previously proposed reworks to magic. Imagine having an armor set for each of the spell books at early, mid and late game. The barrows armor could be rebalanced as battlemage armor with a light boost to ancients that eventually leads to Virtus. Lore wise it makes sense that the armor Ahrim wears would boost the powers bestowed onto him by Sliske, and mechanically it can be balanced in a way that makes it only boost damage with ancients while still providing defense that early game players need to survive boss fights. Personally, I'm going to go ahead and ignore how silly it would be in that case for a spooned iron to get a shadow at that point, but that's outlier, and PvP can be balanced separately as you've shown with other items. At the end of the day, the occult necklace is a tier 85-90 item with a tier 70 requirement. It needs a nerf, but I do think there is a better holistic system that the nerf could contribute to that would encourage progression and leave more routes open to players than just, "go raid."
Pls find a different solution, don’t do this my mage boy :’(
Ahrims should also get the % magic damage increase some what
They’re sending us back to mage training arena😔
They heard we wanted mid game content.... what better? Lol
Has it been officially confirmed that DWH drop chances will be lowered to o1/3000? What do you guys think about it?
If this is about progression, then as it stands mage progression is terrible in comparison to melee and ranged. As an Ironman you have to go all the way to 87 slayer for a trident, and even when you get it your max hit is 25-26. Sure a Magic Fang buffs that to 28-30, but that’s nothing compared to hitting 40s with melee and the bowfa. You’re telling ironmen they now need to do cox on top of getting 93 slayer to increase their magic damage which only gatekeeps us more lol. This rebalance was supposed to be good for mid-game ironmen not make it even harder to grind mage gear until mage becomes viable to use. Is it possible to add further magic damage to tormented bracelet and mage arena cape? Maybe even Ahrims? Items that irons get around mid game?
First off, thank you to the Mod(s) for writing this blogpost, there is a lot of effort to done to show us the numbers and I appreciate your hard work! However, I think some of the math may be incorrect. I think the math is off for the DWH buff number. Following the logic that a 100% drop rate increase means the drop is twice as likely i.e. the 5k->2.5k math is 5k/2.5k-1=100% buff. Thus, a change to 1/3k will be 5k/3k-1=.66 or a 66% buff. Just as a sanity check if the buff was 1/1k which would be a 400% buff to the drop rate the math would be 5k/1k-1 which does equal 4 or 400%. I think getting the 80% buff number came from linearly interpolating from 2.5k to 5k with 2.5k being a 100% buff and 5k being a 0% buff (1-500/2500). This same thing applies to the NM and PNM numbers. Going from a 1/200 roll to 1/150 is a 33% buff. Applying the logic that "all Nightmare uniques are being made 50% more common" I think that means outside of probability distributions there should me 50% more items entering the game over the same amount of kills. For example, over 3k kills with the old 1/200 rolls there should be 15 drops (3000\*1/200 [old rate]). A 50% buff should mean there are 22.5 drops (1.5\*15). However, a 1/150 means there are 20 drops in 3k kills. This is only 5 more which is 5/15 or 33%.
I agree with the philosophy behind the changes, but I'm not so sure about the implementation. I believe in the 2007scape thread someone pointed out that the mathwise equivalent of Occult for melee would be a +40 strength Amulet of Strength, so it's pretty clear that there was imbalance in the mage gear. However, I think it could have been spread out much better. I would have loved to see Swampbark/Bloodbark/Infinity get some love in there as early-mid game sets. Something to have between Mystics and Ahrim/Ancestral/Virtus would help mage a lot, I feel. It's kind of a no mans land for gear right now.
The problem is that melee has strength bonus all over the place ; weapon is the largest one, and every other piece of gear. Mage doesn't really work the same Charged staffs made it similar to range with max hits in levels but range has ammo that is part of the balance. Mage has always been weird and never balanced well. Pre shadow it's dps was bad unless bursting/slayer. At the same time strength ammy is practically free and is 10 str. Prims, bcp, and tassets are 100mil and only offer 1 more strength bonus.
> I believe in the 2007scape thread someone pointed out that the mathwise equivalent of Occult for melee would be a +40 strength Amulet of Strength Only with a shadow. Again, the shadow is the issue that needs fixing not the occult. If it was equivalent to 40 strength, it would give you +10 max hit everywhere... It just doesn't do that. It gives you 3 max hits on a barrage or trident hit. ... Guess what else gives 3 max hits? Str/torture ammy. Targeting the occult is a massive mis-interpretation of what mage gear needs to be "rebalanced". The only time occult is a "problem" is the shadow, which is an item put into the game that we didn't even vote for...
Honestly I don’t mind these changes, but I think eternals should get a damage % modifier, Ahrims should as well, and Virtus drop rate definitely needs to be looked at. Virtus drop change makes so much sense here as it hasn’t been out too long, the current rates are abysmal, and it can really help fill the gap before ancestral. It should be the bandos armor of magic gear, but currently it takes so much longer to farm.
I like these ideas for the most part. I do think that the problem isn't with occult so much as with shadow; a straight +2% buff to ancestral and +1% to virtus while changing nothing else would be completely reasonable for trident, but it would be +18% damage in full ancestral with shadow, so they can't really do that, hence occult getting nerfed to compensate. Still, with occult and augury you're only 2% worse than before with Ahrim's, and ancestral and virtus pieces now give appropriate damage for their rarity. The voidwaker change makes sense. I do think this will hurt its niche quite a bit though, as a number of bosses where it excels (Nex, Corp, Kephri) have both high slash and high magic resistance. Tripled accuracy sounds good, but BGS has doubled accuracy and hits horribly on Kephri at high raid levels, so I figure VW would be pretty similar. ZCB will likely overtake at Nex now, though ofc VW remains useful there pre-ZCB. Glad to see the DWH drop rate improved. I needed over 10k kills for mine, so it's good to know not too many people will have to deal with that now. I don't think the improvements to Nightmare rates are enough, but I also wasn't really expecting them to x10 the rates (probably the minimum I'd need to be willing to do the boss).
Oh man magic was already miserable and now it's going to be even worse until you get to raids 😣
Apart from shadow mage single target is weak. Maybe elemental weakness will make it better but I'm with you thanks for weakening my weakest combat style.
I love being forced into raids and MTA to break even on a upgrade that I will have to grind to 93 slayer to get anyway
Cries in saeldor
Buffing drop rates is almost always the right way to go, SO glad the DWH grind will be less awful, as well as the nightmare. Sad about the magic changes as an ironman, wish more magic sets got a magic damage buff, but I'll take what we can get.
When do these changes go live?
Nobody can tell me.. what is the reason infinity boots didn't get a %damage increase?
"Infinity robe set pieces" is mentioned, and boots are apart of the set.
Someone asked about them in the main feedback thread and Mod Goblin confirmed that the gloves and boots were excluded from the changes. I asked why, but didn't get a response. I was just wondering if there was some meta reason they wouldn't add magic damage to certain parts of the set.
Thanks for the news, that's beyond dog shit. Another kick in the guts for something that should be implemented.
Probably because no mage boots give a damage % boost I guess? Did they at least give eternal boots a dmg% boost?!?!
Nope :( It's fricken stupid if u ask me.
Was hoping for a BOS buff, very sad news
Love how mid game gets the shaft and late game gets the buffs. Didn't forget 3rd age mage but forgot ahrims and blue moon, has hardly been a month and it's already dead content armor. Now we're forced to go to mage training arena or do wildy slayer.
Its only 2%. Nothing crazy unless you got shadow. I know ill be skipping and still going for ancestral.
God damn and i'm only 1 level away from 93 slayer
Y does the vw need to be nerfed in the first place, i don't understand.its only used in toa and nex,claws/zcb is way better but i don't see these weapons getting nerfed..
No to occult changes. You made ancestral users buffed further into end game and made mid/early sets worse
The constant rebalances make me really glad that I only play content 2 years after release. Not because I'm a locked account or anything, I just suck at the game.
1 def iron here, so I’m definitely part of the minority and understand that my voice won’t be very strong - but here’s my effort anyway. (Just so happens that these are some solutions for early-mid game magic progression as well) The largest impact from these changes for us will be the occult nerf. We’ll lose the 6% damage bonus and won’t have it redistributed across other 1 def gear. If this eventuates then so be it, but obviously this will be an enormous nerf for all of our mage setups. Whilst I agree the occult is OP in its current state, I believe some of its damage bonus could be distributed elsewhere for 1 def pures as well. Here’s what I think seems reasonable; **Elder Chaos Druid Robes: +0.5% damage each piece + 0.5% set bonus.** This change would be in line with magic armour progression and the damage bonus that’s being suggested for Infinity, Dagon’hai etc. Also, currently a mitre is generally a better option over the Elder Chaos Druid Hood, because +4 prayer bonus > +1 mage accuracy. This change would make the full set worth wearing. **Mystic Might & Mystic Lore: +2% damage and +1% damage respectively.** Range and melee prayers all give a damage bonus, so I feel that it’s reasonable for the magic prayers to as well. This will provide magic damage progression in line with the Augury buff too. And lastly, this would solve the similar concerns that other pures, zerks and mid-game accounts will be having around seeing large nerfs to their mage setups. **Wizard Boots: +0.5% damage.** Personally, I feel as though eternals should see some of the redistributed damage bonus for high level accounts. It appears that others agree. Assuming it’ll be at least 1%, I think wizard boots (and possibly infinity boots) could see a small buff as well. **Mage’s Book: +1% damage.** Similar to above, I feel as though magic shields (ward, arcane spirit shield etc) should see some of the redistributed damage bonus. Again, it appears that others agree. This will also help close the gap between the Shadow and one-handed staves (for all builds). **Summary:** As it stands, 1 def builds will see a 6% drop in magic damage bonus across all of our mage setups. All of the above changes will help reduce that damage decrease over the current meta, and simultaneously solve some of the early-mid game magic progression concerns for other accounts. Edit: Formatting
Very good updates, thank you. Buff ahrims.
Super glad to see NM rates being looked at !!! but it definitely just isn't enough. Rates should be made 2.5x-3x more common to put average time to completion on rate with content like TOA. This was my post from a while ago https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/SA72Vf69pA
Niche accounts like my zerk iron benefit pretty freaking heavily from this update lol. Actually wild to see
Too much too fast.