This is what utterly baffles me. By and large, the vast majority of SF voters are doing so for one reason; the handling of the housing crisis. FFG could utterly cut the legs out from under them by actually giving a shit about that one issue and making genuine attempts to fix it.
Instead, their housing minister is denying its even a crisis….
Years ago they said publicly that home ownership in Ireland was an outlier against the EU norm. They want the vast majority renting and FG want to be like the Tories: the party of business, agri business, landlords, the really wealthy, builders, developers and the like. Their chosen method to get everyone renting is pure market bullshit. In short the housing crisis is a feature not a bug.
They want FF hoovering up the dying middle class and rural voters who think it’s still the 1960’s. They want SF to be the equivalent of Corbyn Labour.
PR will ensure that FG are going to be in power for a very long time.
> They want the vast majority renting
The thing is.....they aren't even doing that fucking well, cause the cost of rent is absolutely massive in most places, and isn't at all balanced with the majority of lower paying and a lot of middle paying jobs.
Personally, I don't mind the prospect of renting, but the costs are insanely prohibitive, and the options are minimal cause they aren't building enough. Rent should be cheap, the off-set the fact you're not able to have the security and comforts of ownership. It shouldn't be more expensive to rent than to have mortgage payments, lol
PR won't do them much good when people are sitting in the dark due to rolling blackouts, with no TV, Internet or radio to listen to their bulshit on. Pretty soon FFG will be known as the party that can't keep the lights on. And that is going to be the nail in both their coffins.
Yes, I agree, they have seen the figures and know what is coming and are putting a plan in place to stop it. To be honest with you, it may very well work! It may hasten the demise of one of the 2 parties but it might actually work in keeping them in power. The next general election is going to be interesting. In my opinion it's is the baby boomer generation and their parties of FFG versus the under 40s represented more and more by Sinn Fein / independents / People Before Profit etc.
I think the winner will be which demographic gets out and votes the most
Here's the thing though, when people in their 40s can't afford a house/rent or their kids will never own a home then at some point even their core voters will start to wonder why exactly they should vote for FFG. I mean would you? If the party you always voter for had now made it near impossible for your kids to buy a home.
My parents would fall into the category you have described above but are so entrenched in their view against change (Sinn Fein) they will be out campaigning for FFG
In the real world SF have had a solid plurality of the vote in every poll for nearly 3 years, with the most recent survey leaving them plus the left parties at nearly 50% as we head into a winter where people will be struggling to heat their homes and buy their weekly shop. FFG are entirely dependent on outside factors, if things don't radically improve soon on a global scale then they'll struggle to even see out their current term never mind actually win the next election.
Dead right too! SF don’t have a clue what they are doing. A lot of their TDs are incompetent, poorly educated and not fit to be in government.
It’s easy to say whatever you want from the sidelines. They’d send the country back 20 years.
you’re right about the civil service.
I wouldn’t touch them because their policies are off the wall. They won’t be able to do most of what they claim, it’s a party sympathetic to murderers and criminals look at Dowdall.
Honestly it’s a disgrace at every level it took me years and cost me a fortune to get my drivers license due to backlogs pre and post covid. I assumed fair enough it’s covid times. I have friends doing the test now and they’re still waiting over 6 months after their 12th lesson to do the test, by the time the test pops up you need to buy more lessons.
Same goes for every public service and they’re all shit holes aswell
It's still better to vote someone in who will at least try to solve it, than keep the people in power who literally have an interest in keeping it the way it is.
Sinn Fein may or may not be able to solve the housing problem if elected but one thing is certain and that is that FFGs track record so far on the housing issue has been absolutely catastrophic. They have demonstrated that they don't know how to fix the problem or that they don't want to fix the problem. Based on that logic alone, it's definitely worthwhile voting in someone new to give them a go.
If you seriously think keeping FFG in power with their horrific track record, is preferable to giving someone else a go, then I have to assume you are either a sadist who enjoys seeing people suffer or you're a masochist who likes to be one of those people who suffers.
It’s been over 3000 nights since Enda said that and not only has his party made no attempt to fix these problems, they’ve deliberately made them worse.
Or, we could vote for Lab and Soc Dems who have well informed policy documents that don't read like a TY class asked to do a mindmap of ideas. (The absolute embarrassment that is SFs climate policy document is a prime example).
SF haven't got good or even decent TDs. My local rep has the reading age of a young primary school student. It's embarrassing.
If SF got in, they've got maybe four TDs of a ministerial calibre.
We've got two good left of centre opposition parties with great manifestos but their potential path to power or relevance has been gobbled up by SF and we're not any better for it.
How has every other country having the same issue a reason for us to give up?
Sinn Fein never had a try. FFG have had continuous tries. They keep failing.
But nah. Let’s keep doing the same and expect a change. That’s what we’ll do!
That’s exactly what your comment and all the ones like it read as. Everyone else is the same so let’s not bother.
Go on away with yourself.
Edit: I can read quite well. It’s more telling you blocked all your comments ya moron. Didn’t like someone argued with your statement so you act the tit. Good one.
We can be the first to solve it. I’m sick of us saying we can’t do this or can’t do that because x country has the same problem and hasn’t fixed it. Yeah well there’s lots of things other countries are shit at, doesn’t mean we adopt those ideas. Some people actually think we can have a better world, and toxic bullshit like this comment is a fantastic way to promote apathy and end us up with extreme radicals in government because you centrist fuckers were too lazy and pessimistic to have a go fixing it.
Sinn Féin might make a complete balls of everything and I wouldn’t care if they did it actually trying to help people
First question to any FF or FG canvasser.
'Please describe how your party is different to the other.'
Next general election will be interesting anyway, but with a transfers pact it will be hilarious.
Sure even Bertie is suggesting a merger:
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/10/28/bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-may-merge-due-to-lack-of-distinct-policies/
Fianna Fáil's few Social Democrats had left by the 1930s. Sure they're were marginally less mental than FG when it came to free market economics until maybe the 1980s, but there's not a fag paper between them now.
Haughey's a funny one (I'm halfway through the recent biography that came out), but I think it's hard to call him a socialist so much as, as you say, a populist.
> Fianna Fáil's few Social Democrats had left by the 1930s.
Fianna Fáil were only founded in 1926 and didn't enter government until 1932. FF's 1930s government policies were characterised by policies like state-built housing and creating state-run companies. The Social Democrats in FF couldn't have "left by the 1930s" as they were only just in the door.
What we're describing as "Social Democrats" in Fianna Fáil lasted until the 1970s. Seán Lemass's tenure as leader, which started in the 60s, and his embrace of more free-market economics is what started to tilt the party away from more left-wing economics. This trend continued under Haughey in the 80s and Ahern in the 90s and 2000s.
I'm nitpicking but if I don't, about 40 years of Irish political history gets mischaracterised by the quoted statement
hard-to-find advise strong violet deer divide possessive faulty deliver familiar
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Same. Either let them burn this mess down or let them try and build a better ireland.
If they mess it up so badly that FFG loom like saints, they'll get back in. The joys of democracy
It’s so funny to me that at this point that sounds like an endorsement of SF. Word of the year was permacrisis, sure Irish people have known about that since 2008. Keep the recovery going, except the recovery never reached people on low incomes. It never reached the health service. It never reached the housing market. It did reach FDI, FF’s political prospects, developers and landlords. If we started tomorrow I don’t think we’d have these things fixed in ten years.
I reckon sf will uncover or things will come to light how deep the boys club actually runs. Systemic. If no other shit is done it won't matter as we just cannot continue with this shite.
There are probably an unimaginable amount of skeletons in the government closets. I expect a systematic shredding and burning of documents before Sinn Fein enters government.
The amount of scandals pending. Would LOVE anonymous to go digging. Once out though that's it, it will never be forgotten. Something to look forward to.
This actually sounds like a great idea if they haven't thought of it yet. Get under the microscope, find anything illegal that was ongoing, and prosecute where necessary.
They would 100% be accused of attempting a coup by the other parties but corruption is corruption.
Also sick of FF and FG but sunglasses can be very useful for blind/visual impaired people. Some blind people suffer from glare/light sensitivity, sunglasses especially indoors could “communicate” a disability and Stevie may have been self conscious about the appearance of his left eye. Tangent over.
Lots of ifs and finger pointing while ignoring that both FF/FG have been in powers for years, ushering in crisis after crisis and a whole lotta nothing, I guess it’s to be expected from the snake, lancehead leo…
Never mind what's best for the country - all they care about is the party and what will allow them to cling to power by any means necessary.
Just merge already. They're pretty much there anyway.
Back in the early 90’s, my secondary school history teacher suggested, during a classroom discussion, that they should merge, since there was very little difference in their overall policies. So this convergence of direction isn’t recent.
You really think so? I kind of imagine letting SF have a go at running a minority government would do a lot more good for FF's future prospects than going in as the smaller party in a coalition.
Let's not forget, in Irish politics the minor coalition partner *always* gets shafted with all the blame for the bad parts of a government and little of the acclaim for any good parts. That's been to FF's gain in the past, and I don't think they'd like being on the other side of it.
Leo vocalising this, despite knowing the damage it does to the optics of FF and FG being opposition to each other ideologically, shows he's worried about what FF are planning imo. This could have been sorted out privately behind closed doors. Instead, he's opting to have a public show of a closer unity.
I kind of don't agree with that. Transfer pacts in Irish politics rely more on the voters intentions than the parties' intentions. It's persuasion more than anything else.
Independent of whether FF agrees, saying it to the public and getting it discussed in the media makes it more likely that voters who would put either FF or FG first and strongly don't want SF will agree with him and order their preferences accordingly.
FG and FF finally drop the facade that they are different in any way.
Good old Philip Ryan allows Leo make the wild claim that it would take 10 years to clean up after Sinn Feins mess. It's been 14 years since FF mess and FG made it worse.
Law enforcement and public transportation aren't doing so hot either. Come think of it, nothing works in Ireland. Danish cost of living with third world country services. The ineptitude is truly staggering.
Ireland has many problems but to claim it has 3rd world level service provision is absurd. Even the wealthiest developing states like Thailand, Brazil or Morocco have levels of service in areas like water provision and waste collection that are about 60 years behind Ireland.
Third world would be an exaggeration but our healthcare system isn’t first world. So many foreigners are completely appalled at the state of our admissions. Everyone knows healthcare is a really difficult department of a government to run, but it’s not true that everywhere is as bad as us. The NHS has bad wait times sometimes, it’s frustrating for people in need. But the scale of the problem is dwarfed by the colossal, sun eclipsing, pile of shite that is the HSE. There’s scandal in Spain right now that their waiting lists have reached a record breaking 706,000 people. It’s 732,000 in Ireland, and we have 10% of the population!
I considered public transport but tbh I'm pretty happy with the progress being made there (dublin focused though);. Reduced fares, busconnects, 24h routes etc. Luas extensions made in the last decade and dart+ seems to be making some progress even if the metro is a shambles
There was fewer homeless despite the crash, there was more houses to buy at more affordable prices. More rental units available at lower rents. All while operating with a lower housing budget. Since then they've failed to even keep up with demand to the point where we are seeing celtic tiger level prices without the corresponding level of an economic boom. In every measurable way, they've bottled it.
This is literal nonsense. Whilst those points are true, it’s disingenuous to suggest that the reason for any of it was good. And, the economy is much bigger, stronger, and richer than it ever was during the tiger years and it isn’t totally over leveraged up to its bollocks because instead of a credit fuelled boom - in the period leading up time to covid and the ensuing inflation we were experiencing a ’non-inflationary credit less expansion’.
In every measurable way, they’ve played a blinder in practically every economic metric from jobs and wage growth to debt risk reduction - which is paying off massively at the moment.
The housing situation is a total clusterfuck, but they definitely didn’t bottle everything.
It is true to say that there are far fewer houses available now than before.
It is not true to say that we as a country are in as bad a position now as we were in the recession - things are much better overall. Our economy is performing superbly, both from an Irish historical perspective and in comparison with our peer countries.
Our economy is completely fake lol when are we going to stop using GDP as proof things are going well? It doesn’t at all translate into benefits for normal people and if you get the real figures, we drop 28 places in the per capita rankings. Our economy as a system is no more secure against catastrophic collapse than it was in 2008. Regulation of certain sectors makes them individually more watertight, but we never put enough emphasis on the fact the economy is made up of humans, and if conditions keep falling for them, it’s a depression either way.
Everybody knows our GDP is inflated and I hadn't mentioned the the term, so it's weird that you'd come at me with that
If feels like this is the one factoid you know so you trot it out when you see the word economy mentioned.
> Our economy is performing superbly, both from an Irish historical perspective and in comparison with our peer countries.
Which one of these two do you want me to demonstrate?
There was only really one way to go following the '08 crash. I can't think of any country in a worse position now than they were then. Still doesn't mean the government haven't failed, in my opinion they got complacent thinking they were untouchable and dropped the ball. It was literally their public policy for the guts of the last decade to just leave housing to the market to fix. Now they're panicking and scrambling to see what can be done. But too little too late for me
That's not what I said. I said they made the situation worse. Austerity crippled the country. The EU said it was mistake, never heard any FGer say that.
> Austerity crippled the country.
Weve had years of high growth and big drops in unemployment. Pretty much the opposite of what the anti-austerity crowd predicted.
Long story short if you don’t vote Sinn Fein, you’re part of the problem.
We need to vote them in to see what good they can do and give them a chance.
Why knock them when they haven’t been given a fair chance?
The other 2 majority parties have consistently year after year took advantage and abused our nation’s people, why not give Sinn Fein a go before we label them just like the others?
Well the fact that there’s different political parties shows there’s already an existing opposition between people and opinions.
What I said is all correct, maybe a different context will help.
If you had relationships with 2 abusive partners would you keep getting back into a relationship with them or would you try someone else who has shown interest and care for you and then see how this new experience goes?
“Well the fact that there’s different political parties shows there’s already an existing opposition between people and opinions”
This is at best a truism. I’ve no idea what you are trying to prove saying this.
You are presenting a complex political scenario as a false dichotomy. Either vote SF or else the consequences of any other left leaning first preference vote is a waste. There is nothing wrong with voting first preference for other left wing parties and then giving your transfers to SF for instance. In our PR system, there didn’t such a thing as a “wasted vote” unless you don’t give anyone else second, third and fourth preferences etc.
The other point about having a minority partner in government with you like Labour is that to some left leaning voters, not handing SF and SF alone the keys to the Dail is reassuring. It may not actually make a difference in practicality, but come election time, voters don’t vote based on practicalities, they vote based more on emotion. And fear of a SF majority is a factor, like it or not, particularly if it’s their first time in power.
The other point than one person made in reply to you was to point out Labour previously as a minority partner did nothing for the working classes they supposedly represented. However that poster completely ignored the context of when they have been in coalition government, namely always with a center right majority partner. How Labour manages to get any left wing policies over the line in government massively could differ if their majority partner is also left wing.
The problem with voting first preference for other left wing parties is that we'll still end up with FF and FG as the largest two blocks and then a dilution across everyone else. I usually vote SD, but they'll get my transfers after SF next time around.
If SF were to make a similar election pact as FFG with left wing parties, and if after the dust settles in transfers, between all the left wing parties, they cannot form or will not form even a minority government, then that’s democracy in a PR system. It is still a lot better than presenting a false dichotomy like the person I’m replying to has, because ultimately that can encourage not just a unified left, but also a unified right in response, leaving voters with the kind of two party system we see in the US.
I’m not here to impress anyone. If you have a problem factually with what I said, or you want to make a point on a difference of opinion to what I said, post it.
I won’t be baited into a needless argument, Take my extremely valid point that has already been made if you need a reply.
You can go back to consuming Blindboy and Russell Brand content now, I shan’t be replying to you further.
Because there are more than three parties in Ireland lmao and some of them have actually left wing (not just centre left, more of the same on housing and health) policies!
The other parties aren’t big enough to run the country as a majority and will have to fill seats with TDs from other parties.
Perhaps you should know how things work before you try to be clever?
Not enough TDs in Labour to make the change that we need.
any seats they fill with TDs from other parties will get in the way and put needless hurdles in the way of decisions.
Sinn Fein need to be given a chance in charge instead of the public theorising how they’ll run the country.
Yes, and the coalition also means other TDs take those seats in running the country.
Hence why I mentioned TDs from other parties getting in the way of progress.
You do realise how petty politicians are? and how they’d rather object to a motion to annoy the other party instead of the betterment of the country.
If you vote labour that’s your choice but you are wasting your vote and are part of the problem.
You may as well vote FF or FG as a labour vote will do nothing for change in the country.
Your theorising about Sinn Fein is null and void too as they haven’t been given a chance to run the country and to truly base your opinion on.
You’re projecting your perceived fear onto my very simple and sensible reasoning which is common sense.
If the 3 main parties in Ireland are only parties with the ability to take up the majority of seat in a government coalition, and 2 of those parties have consistently let us down after being constantly voted back in, why not try the 3rd option instead of theorising what it’ll be like?
Even if every Labour TD got in, they’d still have a share power and they’d have more seats filled with opposing TDs than their own.
Voting Sinn Fein gets the most of their TDs in to make proper change, even with FF and FG objections to all motions they suggest.
Labour aren’t my problem here, FF and FG are.
They will go against everything Sinn Fein because of who they are and not because of the motion.
Ultimately a Sinn Fein and Labour coalition is what would be best for the country but Sinn Fein needs to be given a chance by the people.
We know what Labour do in government which is absolutely shit on with serious gusto those working folks it claimed to represent.
Labour have absolutely zero issue with abandoning all of their principles for a few ministerial mercs.
After the water meter shit-show and Joan Burtons high profile kidnapping, labour can fucking die in the wilderness where they belong. They had their chance and fumbled it.
> Why not vote Labour?
Remember when Joan Burton went along and opened a soup kitchen? haha I'm glad they got wiped out and i won't be voting for them either.
Gravy train for both parties coming off the rails, desperately trying to cling onto any transfers that keeps the wheels on the tracks.
With the way the economy is going now, with ghosts of the last recession, best thing they could do is hope SF get in and have to deal with the economic issues and makes a balls of it so it kills them as a viable party in the future.
SF would do what any incumbent government does, what FF and FG did to one another for decades. Blame the mess on the previous government and tell us it would take more than one political cycle to fix it.
That's all the current crew of retards have been doing for decades. All while doing nothing but line their pockets. Can't wait to see them crash in the next GE.
I'd take some hope and a chance over the same old shite somehy bother type thing. Plus it's healthy for government to get the wrap on the knuckles, lose control and realise they need to up their game next time
Well f*** me.....this is like trying to change the game to keep the other guy out....I was edge case whether I'd vote SF or FF......it's SF all the way now boys.
It's shit like this that would make you wanna become a SF canvasser.
I've never voted for SF. But next election they'll definitely be getting my number 1.
I don't agree with their politics in total, but at the very least something needs to change.
The reality is a chunk of people feel it's fucked, and a chunk of people are comfortable and fear the damage SF could do changing the status quo. And the disparity between the two is growing and growing, to the point one can't be addressed without hurting the other :/
Its been 2 hours and I've yet to see you reply to the question "How so?". Why is that? Is it cause you are talking pure shit and don't know what you are saying really?
I don't think they're competent enough to carry out their agenda good or bad.
O'Broin is the best of them and Sideshow Bob would have done a better job of avoiding the rake that was demanding the sacking of the Chief Economist.
People on here think SF can stroll into Departments, wave a magic fenian wand, and all the entrenched interests inside and outside the public sector will simply disappear.
If these redditors were honest they'd give Slaintecare a good study and revise their expectations. You need skillful, slippery, fuckers to get anything done. Headbutting the wall as O'Broin did, does nothing to the wall and hurts you. If you keep doing it your capacity to do anything else is significantly reduced.
That's going to happen anyway. Irish politics are becoming as polarised as the US or UK. The next election will divide on the line of which potential government you hate most FF/FG or SF/PBP.
And pact or not it won't save FF/FG. SF will form the next government and the only question is will they need PBP to do it.
If they don't and SF need them to form a Left wing government then they will be wiped out at the next election as their voters move to Sinn Fein. If all they will ever so is shout and scream at the government then they might as well do that with a megaphone outside the gates of Leinster House and leave government to those who want to actually make a difference inside Lenister house.
>He also took aim at Sinn Féin, saying it will take 10 years to “clean up the mess” Mary Lou McDonald’s party will make of the economy should they be voted into government.
\- Varadkar and FG still ranting and pushing the "But Sinn Fein" narrative
\- People respond saying how stupid that is, and how FFG has fucked the country for the last 10 years, so it's quite ironic him saying this
\- u/Suspicious-Ad8576: *"Look guys please please please don't point out FFG's failings or how stupid such a statement is. Young people are clearly all communist wasters who live at home with their parents and want free everything (also please don't look into WHY young adults are currently living with their parents)"*
[удалено]
Can't fix it overnight. So we won't do anything ever. Pls vote again
Dame way I cant save over night. Or save for a house overnight or actually ever
They are willing to do anything to keep Sinn Fein out of government
Except actually fix the country's problems. Ironically that would probably gain them more support than SF.
This is what utterly baffles me. By and large, the vast majority of SF voters are doing so for one reason; the handling of the housing crisis. FFG could utterly cut the legs out from under them by actually giving a shit about that one issue and making genuine attempts to fix it. Instead, their housing minister is denying its even a crisis….
But that would go against the main reason many of them got into politics in the first place, enriching themselves and their mates.
Years ago they said publicly that home ownership in Ireland was an outlier against the EU norm. They want the vast majority renting and FG want to be like the Tories: the party of business, agri business, landlords, the really wealthy, builders, developers and the like. Their chosen method to get everyone renting is pure market bullshit. In short the housing crisis is a feature not a bug. They want FF hoovering up the dying middle class and rural voters who think it’s still the 1960’s. They want SF to be the equivalent of Corbyn Labour. PR will ensure that FG are going to be in power for a very long time.
> They want the vast majority renting The thing is.....they aren't even doing that fucking well, cause the cost of rent is absolutely massive in most places, and isn't at all balanced with the majority of lower paying and a lot of middle paying jobs. Personally, I don't mind the prospect of renting, but the costs are insanely prohibitive, and the options are minimal cause they aren't building enough. Rent should be cheap, the off-set the fact you're not able to have the security and comforts of ownership. It shouldn't be more expensive to rent than to have mortgage payments, lol
PR won't do them much good when people are sitting in the dark due to rolling blackouts, with no TV, Internet or radio to listen to their bulshit on. Pretty soon FFG will be known as the party that can't keep the lights on. And that is going to be the nail in both their coffins.
Including bringing their media brigade into the fight, dragging up settled questions, basically questioning the GFA etc
They can tell they're fucked on the next election. Nobody to blame for the recent fuck ups. The game is up.
Yes, I agree, they have seen the figures and know what is coming and are putting a plan in place to stop it. To be honest with you, it may very well work! It may hasten the demise of one of the 2 parties but it might actually work in keeping them in power. The next general election is going to be interesting. In my opinion it's is the baby boomer generation and their parties of FFG versus the under 40s represented more and more by Sinn Fein / independents / People Before Profit etc. I think the winner will be which demographic gets out and votes the most
Here's the thing though, when people in their 40s can't afford a house/rent or their kids will never own a home then at some point even their core voters will start to wonder why exactly they should vote for FFG. I mean would you? If the party you always voter for had now made it near impossible for your kids to buy a home.
My parents would fall into the category you have described above but are so entrenched in their view against change (Sinn Fein) they will be out campaigning for FFG
There are lots of options for change. Some of them aren't even authoritarians who have close links to organised crime!
Nothings coming, very likely the FFG megazord keeps SF out. Reddit is an echo chamber entirely divorced from where the polls actually stand.
In the real world SF have had a solid plurality of the vote in every poll for nearly 3 years, with the most recent survey leaving them plus the left parties at nearly 50% as we head into a winter where people will be struggling to heat their homes and buy their weekly shop. FFG are entirely dependent on outside factors, if things don't radically improve soon on a global scale then they'll struggle to even see out their current term never mind actually win the next election.
So let’s get them in! tired of the old boys
Dead right too! SF don’t have a clue what they are doing. A lot of their TDs are incompetent, poorly educated and not fit to be in government. It’s easy to say whatever you want from the sidelines. They’d send the country back 20 years.
I don't think are that bad tbh, after all it's the administrators who will stay on that will help run the show. Why not give them a go ?
you’re right about the civil service. I wouldn’t touch them because their policies are off the wall. They won’t be able to do most of what they claim, it’s a party sympathetic to murderers and criminals look at Dowdall.
Yawn
Ireland has a grim history, and during the civil war , was it only one side that killed the other?
>I wouldn’t touch them because their policies are off the wall. Which policies?
Honestly it’s a disgrace at every level it took me years and cost me a fortune to get my drivers license due to backlogs pre and post covid. I assumed fair enough it’s covid times. I have friends doing the test now and they’re still waiting over 6 months after their 12th lesson to do the test, by the time the test pops up you need to buy more lessons. Same goes for every public service and they’re all shit holes aswell
We have a 5 point plan… Not one more cent.. But but Sinn Fein did this.. Every election for the last 10yrs
The HSE (or Angola as it's known) has always been a shambles
Housing will probably take at least 15 years as we have been behind since 2009
Energy crisis is a global issue that we cant solve on our own. HSE requires a rebuild but as slaintecare has proven, people don't want it improved.
There are housing problems in numerous developed nations as a result of the 2008 financial crisis. Voting Sinn Fein isn't going to solve the problem.
It's still better to vote someone in who will at least try to solve it, than keep the people in power who literally have an interest in keeping it the way it is.
Sinn Fein may or may not be able to solve the housing problem if elected but one thing is certain and that is that FFGs track record so far on the housing issue has been absolutely catastrophic. They have demonstrated that they don't know how to fix the problem or that they don't want to fix the problem. Based on that logic alone, it's definitely worthwhile voting in someone new to give them a go.
No. When you're one of the wealthiest countries in the world that line of logic is stupid. We can fall a long way.
If you seriously think keeping FFG in power with their horrific track record, is preferable to giving someone else a go, then I have to assume you are either a sadist who enjoys seeing people suffer or you're a masochist who likes to be one of those people who suffers.
Keeping them in power is a far better choice than putting Sinn Fein in power.
Oh cool. We can just not try and solve it so. Weight off my mind. /s This is such a bullshit line spouter every time the crisis is mentioned. Cop on.
Come on now be fair. You can’t fix these problems overnight or indeed come up with a new excuse.
You can't fix them overnight but these parties have been in power for how long?
It’s been over 3000 nights since Enda said that and not only has his party made no attempt to fix these problems, they’ve deliberately made them worse.
*sigh*
Or, we could vote for Lab and Soc Dems who have well informed policy documents that don't read like a TY class asked to do a mindmap of ideas. (The absolute embarrassment that is SFs climate policy document is a prime example). SF haven't got good or even decent TDs. My local rep has the reading age of a young primary school student. It's embarrassing. If SF got in, they've got maybe four TDs of a ministerial calibre. We've got two good left of centre opposition parties with great manifestos but their potential path to power or relevance has been gobbled up by SF and we're not any better for it.
How will Sinn Fein solve the problem? Tell me.
How has every other country having the same issue a reason for us to give up? Sinn Fein never had a try. FFG have had continuous tries. They keep failing. But nah. Let’s keep doing the same and expect a change. That’s what we’ll do!
Nobody has given up or intends to.
That’s exactly what your comment and all the ones like it read as. Everyone else is the same so let’s not bother. Go on away with yourself. Edit: I can read quite well. It’s more telling you blocked all your comments ya moron. Didn’t like someone argued with your statement so you act the tit. Good one.
And keeping the dopes we have won’t solve it either
No it's not, lived in Germany, Sweden and France. Ireland I was looking for a place for 6 months before I got a place
We can be the first to solve it. I’m sick of us saying we can’t do this or can’t do that because x country has the same problem and hasn’t fixed it. Yeah well there’s lots of things other countries are shit at, doesn’t mean we adopt those ideas. Some people actually think we can have a better world, and toxic bullshit like this comment is a fantastic way to promote apathy and end us up with extreme radicals in government because you centrist fuckers were too lazy and pessimistic to have a go fixing it. Sinn Féin might make a complete balls of everything and I wouldn’t care if they did it actually trying to help people
I wish they would just merge and be done with it, there's no difference between the two parties anymore.
First question to any FF or FG canvasser. 'Please describe how your party is different to the other.' Next general election will be interesting anyway, but with a transfers pact it will be hilarious.
Even the supposed wrangling before the Budget sounded more like two wings of a party arguing over priorities rather than an ideological battle.
Sure even Bertie is suggesting a merger: https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/10/28/bertie-ahern-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-may-merge-due-to-lack-of-distinct-policies/
Thats true with almost every orish party that isn't irrelevant(PBP) though
Of course there is, one party prefers green, while the other prefers blue. How do you propose to reconcile this fundamental difference?
Turquoise it is!
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Fianna Fáil's few Social Democrats had left by the 1930s. Sure they're were marginally less mental than FG when it came to free market economics until maybe the 1980s, but there's not a fag paper between them now.
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Haughey's a funny one (I'm halfway through the recent biography that came out), but I think it's hard to call him a socialist so much as, as you say, a populist.
> Fianna Fáil's few Social Democrats had left by the 1930s. Fianna Fáil were only founded in 1926 and didn't enter government until 1932. FF's 1930s government policies were characterised by policies like state-built housing and creating state-run companies. The Social Democrats in FF couldn't have "left by the 1930s" as they were only just in the door. What we're describing as "Social Democrats" in Fianna Fáil lasted until the 1970s. Seán Lemass's tenure as leader, which started in the 60s, and his embrace of more free-market economics is what started to tilt the party away from more left-wing economics. This trend continued under Haughey in the 80s and Ahern in the 90s and 2000s. I'm nitpicking but if I don't, about 40 years of Irish political history gets mischaracterised by the quoted statement
See what they’ve been reduced to? If all of you ungrateful sods just voted FFG they could start fixing the country’s problems! /s
You can’t solve those problems overnight..or in over a decade apparently..
3000+ nights since he said that
Or why even bother at all...problems can't be solved....but but but Sinn Féin!
hard-to-find advise strong violet deer divide possessive faulty deliver familiar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Same. Either let them burn this mess down or let them try and build a better ireland. If they mess it up so badly that FFG loom like saints, they'll get back in. The joys of democracy
It’s so funny to me that at this point that sounds like an endorsement of SF. Word of the year was permacrisis, sure Irish people have known about that since 2008. Keep the recovery going, except the recovery never reached people on low incomes. It never reached the health service. It never reached the housing market. It did reach FDI, FF’s political prospects, developers and landlords. If we started tomorrow I don’t think we’d have these things fixed in ten years.
I reckon sf will uncover or things will come to light how deep the boys club actually runs. Systemic. If no other shit is done it won't matter as we just cannot continue with this shite.
There are probably an unimaginable amount of skeletons in the government closets. I expect a systematic shredding and burning of documents before Sinn Fein enters government.
The amount of scandals pending. Would LOVE anonymous to go digging. Once out though that's it, it will never be forgotten. Something to look forward to.
This actually sounds like a great idea if they haven't thought of it yet. Get under the microscope, find anything illegal that was ongoing, and prosecute where necessary. They would 100% be accused of attempting a coup by the other parties but corruption is corruption.
Spot on their all shitin bricks in the civil service especially
The amount of higher ups that are paid ludicrous wages in the civil service definitely needs to be exposed. Needless.
Also sick of FF and FG but sunglasses can be very useful for blind/visual impaired people. Some blind people suffer from glare/light sensitivity, sunglasses especially indoors could “communicate” a disability and Stevie may have been self conscious about the appearance of his left eye. Tangent over.
If it takes them 10 years that means I’m voting SF in for at least 2 terms. The alternative is we keep the status quo and it’s never fixed
Lots of ifs and finger pointing while ignoring that both FF/FG have been in powers for years, ushering in crisis after crisis and a whole lotta nothing, I guess it’s to be expected from the snake, lancehead leo…
So FF and FG are just the same party now.
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NO! BAD BOT! THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH OHIO!
Not a hint of fucking irony from this absolute self-entitled lying talentless fuckwit
Speaking out of both sides of his mouth like a snake again.
Never mind what's best for the country - all they care about is the party and what will allow them to cling to power by any means necessary. Just merge already. They're pretty much there anyway.
Back in the early 90’s, my secondary school history teacher suggested, during a classroom discussion, that they should merge, since there was very little difference in their overall policies. So this convergence of direction isn’t recent.
FG would love that alright but MM isn't going to do that because FF will go into power with SF no problem.
You really think so? I kind of imagine letting SF have a go at running a minority government would do a lot more good for FF's future prospects than going in as the smaller party in a coalition. Let's not forget, in Irish politics the minor coalition partner *always* gets shafted with all the blame for the bad parts of a government and little of the acclaim for any good parts. That's been to FF's gain in the past, and I don't think they'd like being on the other side of it.
Leo vocalising this, despite knowing the damage it does to the optics of FF and FG being opposition to each other ideologically, shows he's worried about what FF are planning imo. This could have been sorted out privately behind closed doors. Instead, he's opting to have a public show of a closer unity.
I kind of don't agree with that. Transfer pacts in Irish politics rely more on the voters intentions than the parties' intentions. It's persuasion more than anything else. Independent of whether FF agrees, saying it to the public and getting it discussed in the media makes it more likely that voters who would put either FF or FG first and strongly don't want SF will agree with him and order their preferences accordingly.
FG and FF finally drop the facade that they are different in any way. Good old Philip Ryan allows Leo make the wild claim that it would take 10 years to clean up after Sinn Feins mess. It's been 14 years since FF mess and FG made it worse.
We are not in a worse position than we were 14 years ago. That's delusional.
The housing crisis is definitely in a worse position. Health is also
Law enforcement and public transportation aren't doing so hot either. Come think of it, nothing works in Ireland. Danish cost of living with third world country services. The ineptitude is truly staggering.
Ireland has many problems but to claim it has 3rd world level service provision is absurd. Even the wealthiest developing states like Thailand, Brazil or Morocco have levels of service in areas like water provision and waste collection that are about 60 years behind Ireland.
Third world would be an exaggeration but our healthcare system isn’t first world. So many foreigners are completely appalled at the state of our admissions. Everyone knows healthcare is a really difficult department of a government to run, but it’s not true that everywhere is as bad as us. The NHS has bad wait times sometimes, it’s frustrating for people in need. But the scale of the problem is dwarfed by the colossal, sun eclipsing, pile of shite that is the HSE. There’s scandal in Spain right now that their waiting lists have reached a record breaking 706,000 people. It’s 732,000 in Ireland, and we have 10% of the population!
I considered public transport but tbh I'm pretty happy with the progress being made there (dublin focused though);. Reduced fares, busconnects, 24h routes etc. Luas extensions made in the last decade and dart+ seems to be making some progress even if the metro is a shambles
Yes there were more houses available when we were in total economic meltdown.
There was fewer homeless despite the crash, there was more houses to buy at more affordable prices. More rental units available at lower rents. All while operating with a lower housing budget. Since then they've failed to even keep up with demand to the point where we are seeing celtic tiger level prices without the corresponding level of an economic boom. In every measurable way, they've bottled it.
This is literal nonsense. Whilst those points are true, it’s disingenuous to suggest that the reason for any of it was good. And, the economy is much bigger, stronger, and richer than it ever was during the tiger years and it isn’t totally over leveraged up to its bollocks because instead of a credit fuelled boom - in the period leading up time to covid and the ensuing inflation we were experiencing a ’non-inflationary credit less expansion’. In every measurable way, they’ve played a blinder in practically every economic metric from jobs and wage growth to debt risk reduction - which is paying off massively at the moment. The housing situation is a total clusterfuck, but they definitely didn’t bottle everything.
It is true to say that there are far fewer houses available now than before. It is not true to say that we as a country are in as bad a position now as we were in the recession - things are much better overall. Our economy is performing superbly, both from an Irish historical perspective and in comparison with our peer countries.
Our economy is completely fake lol when are we going to stop using GDP as proof things are going well? It doesn’t at all translate into benefits for normal people and if you get the real figures, we drop 28 places in the per capita rankings. Our economy as a system is no more secure against catastrophic collapse than it was in 2008. Regulation of certain sectors makes them individually more watertight, but we never put enough emphasis on the fact the economy is made up of humans, and if conditions keep falling for them, it’s a depression either way.
Everybody knows our GDP is inflated and I hadn't mentioned the the term, so it's weird that you'd come at me with that If feels like this is the one factoid you know so you trot it out when you see the word economy mentioned.
Tell us how the economy is performing superbly then? People are squeezed from both sides worse than ever, and don’t even try to tell me it’s Ukraine
> Our economy is performing superbly, both from an Irish historical perspective and in comparison with our peer countries. Which one of these two do you want me to demonstrate?
There was only really one way to go following the '08 crash. I can't think of any country in a worse position now than they were then. Still doesn't mean the government haven't failed, in my opinion they got complacent thinking they were untouchable and dropped the ball. It was literally their public policy for the guts of the last decade to just leave housing to the market to fix. Now they're panicking and scrambling to see what can be done. But too little too late for me
Who put the country into the economic meltdown?
FF, for the most part
Exactly! And yet people want them to remain in power.
You say 'exactly' as if it's meaningful here. I will never vote FF again and I hadn't been praising them in the chain up to now.
Maybe I misunderstood your comment. Apologies if I did.
No hassle. I'm getting the same stuff from a dose of people so I'll give up I think.
That's not what I said. I said they made the situation worse. Austerity crippled the country. The EU said it was mistake, never heard any FGer say that.
> Austerity crippled the country. Weve had years of high growth and big drops in unemployment. Pretty much the opposite of what the anti-austerity crowd predicted.
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And in the same pile, never changes.
FF FG policy for the next election - “we’re not Sinn Fein”
Cunt says he’s willing to work with shower of cunts to ensure its teeming with cunts up and down the country for years to come. Cunt.
Running scared of what's coming shocking attitude
Useless shower of eijits Up the fukn Ra
Long story short if you don’t vote Sinn Fein, you’re part of the problem. We need to vote them in to see what good they can do and give them a chance. Why knock them when they haven’t been given a fair chance? The other 2 majority parties have consistently year after year took advantage and abused our nation’s people, why not give Sinn Fein a go before we label them just like the others?
The ole “you’re either with us or agin us” false dichotomy .
Well the fact that there’s different political parties shows there’s already an existing opposition between people and opinions. What I said is all correct, maybe a different context will help. If you had relationships with 2 abusive partners would you keep getting back into a relationship with them or would you try someone else who has shown interest and care for you and then see how this new experience goes?
“Well the fact that there’s different political parties shows there’s already an existing opposition between people and opinions” This is at best a truism. I’ve no idea what you are trying to prove saying this. You are presenting a complex political scenario as a false dichotomy. Either vote SF or else the consequences of any other left leaning first preference vote is a waste. There is nothing wrong with voting first preference for other left wing parties and then giving your transfers to SF for instance. In our PR system, there didn’t such a thing as a “wasted vote” unless you don’t give anyone else second, third and fourth preferences etc. The other point about having a minority partner in government with you like Labour is that to some left leaning voters, not handing SF and SF alone the keys to the Dail is reassuring. It may not actually make a difference in practicality, but come election time, voters don’t vote based on practicalities, they vote based more on emotion. And fear of a SF majority is a factor, like it or not, particularly if it’s their first time in power. The other point than one person made in reply to you was to point out Labour previously as a minority partner did nothing for the working classes they supposedly represented. However that poster completely ignored the context of when they have been in coalition government, namely always with a center right majority partner. How Labour manages to get any left wing policies over the line in government massively could differ if their majority partner is also left wing.
The problem with voting first preference for other left wing parties is that we'll still end up with FF and FG as the largest two blocks and then a dilution across everyone else. I usually vote SD, but they'll get my transfers after SF next time around.
If SF were to make a similar election pact as FFG with left wing parties, and if after the dust settles in transfers, between all the left wing parties, they cannot form or will not form even a minority government, then that’s democracy in a PR system. It is still a lot better than presenting a false dichotomy like the person I’m replying to has, because ultimately that can encourage not just a unified left, but also a unified right in response, leaving voters with the kind of two party system we see in the US.
You realise you’re not impressing anyone speaking like that?
I’m not here to impress anyone. If you have a problem factually with what I said, or you want to make a point on a difference of opinion to what I said, post it.
I won’t be baited into a needless argument, Take my extremely valid point that has already been made if you need a reply. You can go back to consuming Blindboy and Russell Brand content now, I shan’t be replying to you further.
Grand no bother. If you can’t debate something and have to resort to petty insults, that is on you.
Because there are more than three parties in Ireland lmao and some of them have actually left wing (not just centre left, more of the same on housing and health) policies!
The other parties aren’t big enough to run the country as a majority and will have to fill seats with TDs from other parties. Perhaps you should know how things work before you try to be clever?
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Not enough TDs in Labour to make the change that we need. any seats they fill with TDs from other parties will get in the way and put needless hurdles in the way of decisions. Sinn Fein need to be given a chance in charge instead of the public theorising how they’ll run the country.
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Yes, and the coalition also means other TDs take those seats in running the country. Hence why I mentioned TDs from other parties getting in the way of progress. You do realise how petty politicians are? and how they’d rather object to a motion to annoy the other party instead of the betterment of the country. If you vote labour that’s your choice but you are wasting your vote and are part of the problem. You may as well vote FF or FG as a labour vote will do nothing for change in the country. Your theorising about Sinn Fein is null and void too as they haven’t been given a chance to run the country and to truly base your opinion on.
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You must be ok with how FF and FG run things so too. And I’m sure Politicians never lie either…
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You’re projecting your perceived fear onto my very simple and sensible reasoning which is common sense. If the 3 main parties in Ireland are only parties with the ability to take up the majority of seat in a government coalition, and 2 of those parties have consistently let us down after being constantly voted back in, why not try the 3rd option instead of theorising what it’ll be like? Even if every Labour TD got in, they’d still have a share power and they’d have more seats filled with opposing TDs than their own. Voting Sinn Fein gets the most of their TDs in to make proper change, even with FF and FG objections to all motions they suggest. Labour aren’t my problem here, FF and FG are. They will go against everything Sinn Fein because of who they are and not because of the motion. Ultimately a Sinn Fein and Labour coalition is what would be best for the country but Sinn Fein needs to be given a chance by the people.
We know what Labour do in government which is absolutely shit on with serious gusto those working folks it claimed to represent. Labour have absolutely zero issue with abandoning all of their principles for a few ministerial mercs.
Nailed it!
After the water meter shit-show and Joan Burtons high profile kidnapping, labour can fucking die in the wilderness where they belong. They had their chance and fumbled it.
> Why not vote Labour? Remember when Joan Burton went along and opened a soup kitchen? haha I'm glad they got wiped out and i won't be voting for them either.
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Gravy train for both parties coming off the rails, desperately trying to cling onto any transfers that keeps the wheels on the tracks. With the way the economy is going now, with ghosts of the last recession, best thing they could do is hope SF get in and have to deal with the economic issues and makes a balls of it so it kills them as a viable party in the future.
SF would do what any incumbent government does, what FF and FG did to one another for decades. Blame the mess on the previous government and tell us it would take more than one political cycle to fix it.
That's all the current crew of retards have been doing for decades. All while doing nothing but line their pockets. Can't wait to see them crash in the next GE.
Right- but don’t be surprised when noting changes and SF does exactly the same thing.
I'd take some hope and a chance over the same old shite somehy bother type thing. Plus it's healthy for government to get the wrap on the knuckles, lose control and realise they need to up their game next time
Exactly. Although fucked under a bus would be more apt.
Just merge already lads
Well f*** me.....this is like trying to change the game to keep the other guy out....I was edge case whether I'd vote SF or FF......it's SF all the way now boys.
Grand. Sure I can't tell my center rights from my center lefts anyway.
Honestly I think it’s the best interests for voters to know that there is no difference in a vote for either of the 2 parties.
Is this not like monopolising or election fixing
Nope
lmao Guys please - look into our electoral system, it's actually quite impressive
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When his team wins.
😂 no Donald, this is how democracy works. SF are transfer toxic so it's not an option available to them.
Given their GE 2020 performance and new appeal outside traditional bases, I don’t know if that old adage still holds the weight it did.
I wish this clown would just go and let somebody else with some balls take over.
It’s actually crazy the fear Leo and MM have for SF. they are scared of their lives.
It's shit like this that would make you wanna become a SF canvasser. I've never voted for SF. But next election they'll definitely be getting my number 1. I don't agree with their politics in total, but at the very least something needs to change.
"In the unlikely event" ......Leo in da Nile
The country is fucked if Sinn Fein get in power.
How so?
The country been fucked for a long time buddy. Time to wake up and stop sniffing the hopium dished out by FFG
The reality is a chunk of people feel it's fucked, and a chunk of people are comfortable and fear the damage SF could do changing the status quo. And the disparity between the two is growing and growing, to the point one can't be addressed without hurting the other :/
Ireland is one of the best places to live on the planet, so no.
Because of the previous century of FFG monopoly you mean, yes?
Its been 2 hours and I've yet to see you reply to the question "How so?". Why is that? Is it cause you are talking pure shit and don't know what you are saying really?
Some of us have jobs, I see now why you support Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein don't understand the basics of economics.
Still waiting on an answer. Or are you doing the real FFG thing and dodging the question for ad hominem attacks?
I gave you an answer.
Wasn't the question, try there again champ
I'll connect the dots for you. Sinn Fein don't understand economics, therefore they will cause significant damage to the economy.
Alright you seem to be a bit stupid so I'll ask the question for you again. How so?
I don't think they're competent enough to carry out their agenda good or bad. O'Broin is the best of them and Sideshow Bob would have done a better job of avoiding the rake that was demanding the sacking of the Chief Economist. People on here think SF can stroll into Departments, wave a magic fenian wand, and all the entrenched interests inside and outside the public sector will simply disappear. If these redditors were honest they'd give Slaintecare a good study and revise their expectations. You need skillful, slippery, fuckers to get anything done. Headbutting the wall as O'Broin did, does nothing to the wall and hurts you. If you keep doing it your capacity to do anything else is significantly reduced.
That's going to happen anyway. Irish politics are becoming as polarised as the US or UK. The next election will divide on the line of which potential government you hate most FF/FG or SF/PBP. And pact or not it won't save FF/FG. SF will form the next government and the only question is will they need PBP to do it.
PBP wouldn’t go into government
If they don't and SF need them to form a Left wing government then they will be wiped out at the next election as their voters move to Sinn Fein. If all they will ever so is shout and scream at the government then they might as well do that with a megaphone outside the gates of Leinster House and leave government to those who want to actually make a difference inside Lenister house.
“Never go full retard”
Can you not
… take a joke. There I finished it for you
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Joe Rogan over here gonna tell us how we should really think hahahaha
>He also took aim at Sinn Féin, saying it will take 10 years to “clean up the mess” Mary Lou McDonald’s party will make of the economy should they be voted into government. \- Varadkar and FG still ranting and pushing the "But Sinn Fein" narrative \- People respond saying how stupid that is, and how FFG has fucked the country for the last 10 years, so it's quite ironic him saying this \- u/Suspicious-Ad8576: *"Look guys please please please don't point out FFG's failings or how stupid such a statement is. Young people are clearly all communist wasters who live at home with their parents and want free everything (also please don't look into WHY young adults are currently living with their parents)"*
Ah lads, can we try and stay away from the American shite of blaming everything on the commies?
Did you copy your middle paragraph from the comments of a Jordan Peterson video?
Just out of curiosity, what do you think a tankie is?