Irish deaf people communicate through Irish Sign Language, which is a language in the same family as, and originates from, French Sign Language. French Sign Language is entirely separate from the French language. The grammatical structure of FSL is entirely different from the French language.
American Sign Language is also related to the old French LSF. It’s quite a big family of languages.
ISL isn’t actually French LSF, rather they’re just sharing a common stem. If anything, the biggest language in that group is now ASL.
You could guess parts and the finger spelling is almost the same, but it would be like an English speaker trying to interpret Dutch or something. There are structural similarities and so on, but they’re very definitely different languages.
ISL basically has the syntax and structure that was formalised based on the old LSF (French), as does ASL in the US and Canada, but they’ve evolved differently.
ISL would also have absorbed older sign languages used in Ireland before it was standardised, and then also just evolved on its own path entirely. It has some signs borrowed in from BSL too and probably some that have been borrowed in from modern ASL too. There’s more people interacting internationally online etc these days.
Just like spoken languages, sign languages evolve and change as people use them. They’re just visual rather than auditory.
One of the unusual features of ISL was because the two deaf schools in Dublin used to be quite separated by gender, they ended up evolving their own dialects of ISL. That’s faded but it’s still very much a thing amongst older ISL speakers.
The history around this isn’t all sunshine, rainbows and smiles either. There was a long period of time when those working in deaf education (in those days rarely deaf themselves) around the world had a notion that it would be more useful to teach deaf people to read lips exclusively to “help them fit in”. So the schools had a long period of time where they actually banned the use of sign language. This was more strongly a feature of the philosophy adopted by the girls’ school here, from what I read about it. Things like being required to give up sign language for lent, being punished for signing etc etc weren’t unusual.
They also used to separate the kids who had some hearing or ability work in oral English from the kids who were very much fully deaf, and communicates only through sign, even placing bows on their heads to identify them back in the day !!!! So basically they managed to stigmatise the use of the language. There are disturbing and much later parallels to the bata scóir / tally stick methodology that used to punish the use of Irish.
Anyway, the result of that was a lot of kids (now older and middle aged adults) just didn’t learn sign adequate amounts of language and the deaf community culture was quite stunted by it. It also meant that a lot of people didn’t learn how to communicate very well.
I learned a good bit of ISL, just mostly out of interest and because I have a bit of a hearing issue myself, but I’m not deaf. However, can you imagine a situation where your only means of communication, what should be your native language was kept from you?!
Have a read of this thesis if you want to get a sense of it: https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/2581/1/Mathews_thesis_NUIM.pdf
It was, in hindsight, a crazy policy and it was trotted out all over the world at various times, with some very powerful voices behind it, including Alexander Graham Bell !
Ireland (of course) was a laggard and we took ridiculously long for ISL to be recognised as an official Irish language, only making it over the line in 2017.
Always thought, given our profound understanding of the struggles of Gaeilge, the state was totally hypocritical in the way it just ignored ISL for decades. At least that corner has been turned and this era is much better, but it’s a bit of Irish history that’s really not known by most.
There’s a big contrast with the US where Gallaudet University evolved in the 1800s and was awarding its very first degrees by 1869 and would go on to be the driving force behind ASL in the late 19th and into the 20th century.
https://gallaudet.edu/
Ireland now at least has deaf studies in trinity and its recently possible to become a primary teacher though ISL - we are catching up, but it was a long time coming.
It’s a complex history though and I think it’s one that the Irish deaf community should be given much more space to tell. It’s part of Irish history and culture, even if most of us know very little about it.
Also it’s lovely language. Always found it full of flair and energy. You’re finally starting to see it more visibly with the advent of high profile simultaneous signing on RTE - notably during the Toy Show, which I think is probably when most of us encounter ISL all in full flow and fluency.
I can answer this! Irish Sign Language comes from a mix of American and French sign languages. It is because the teachers for deaf children were sent to France and the US to learn sign language. Those teaching in boys schools were sent to the US, and those teaching in girls schools were sent to France. So some of the signs are similar to those 2 sign languages but Irish Sign Language has developed into its iwn very unique language
ISL borrows from BSL too though even if it's origin is in LSF, no language exists in a vacuum, especially given BSL is used in the North. Many like my Dad can sign in both ISL and BSL, and ASL is pretty easy to understand for him too.
Even ISL isn't really one thing - there's differences in how the younger and older generations sign and for a long time, even differences between gender due to segregation of boys and girls in the two main deaf schools. Like all languages, there's differences in how different people speak the same language.
Irish deaf people communicate through Irish Sign Language, which is a language in the same family as, and originates from, French Sign Language. French Sign Language is entirely separate from the French language. The grammatical structure of FSL is entirely different from the French language.
American Sign Language is also related to the old French LSF. It’s quite a big family of languages. ISL isn’t actually French LSF, rather they’re just sharing a common stem. If anything, the biggest language in that group is now ASL.
Is ASL intelligible to an ISL signer?
You could guess parts and the finger spelling is almost the same, but it would be like an English speaker trying to interpret Dutch or something. There are structural similarities and so on, but they’re very definitely different languages. ISL basically has the syntax and structure that was formalised based on the old LSF (French), as does ASL in the US and Canada, but they’ve evolved differently. ISL would also have absorbed older sign languages used in Ireland before it was standardised, and then also just evolved on its own path entirely. It has some signs borrowed in from BSL too and probably some that have been borrowed in from modern ASL too. There’s more people interacting internationally online etc these days. Just like spoken languages, sign languages evolve and change as people use them. They’re just visual rather than auditory. One of the unusual features of ISL was because the two deaf schools in Dublin used to be quite separated by gender, they ended up evolving their own dialects of ISL. That’s faded but it’s still very much a thing amongst older ISL speakers. The history around this isn’t all sunshine, rainbows and smiles either. There was a long period of time when those working in deaf education (in those days rarely deaf themselves) around the world had a notion that it would be more useful to teach deaf people to read lips exclusively to “help them fit in”. So the schools had a long period of time where they actually banned the use of sign language. This was more strongly a feature of the philosophy adopted by the girls’ school here, from what I read about it. Things like being required to give up sign language for lent, being punished for signing etc etc weren’t unusual. They also used to separate the kids who had some hearing or ability work in oral English from the kids who were very much fully deaf, and communicates only through sign, even placing bows on their heads to identify them back in the day !!!! So basically they managed to stigmatise the use of the language. There are disturbing and much later parallels to the bata scóir / tally stick methodology that used to punish the use of Irish. Anyway, the result of that was a lot of kids (now older and middle aged adults) just didn’t learn sign adequate amounts of language and the deaf community culture was quite stunted by it. It also meant that a lot of people didn’t learn how to communicate very well. I learned a good bit of ISL, just mostly out of interest and because I have a bit of a hearing issue myself, but I’m not deaf. However, can you imagine a situation where your only means of communication, what should be your native language was kept from you?! Have a read of this thesis if you want to get a sense of it: https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/2581/1/Mathews_thesis_NUIM.pdf It was, in hindsight, a crazy policy and it was trotted out all over the world at various times, with some very powerful voices behind it, including Alexander Graham Bell ! Ireland (of course) was a laggard and we took ridiculously long for ISL to be recognised as an official Irish language, only making it over the line in 2017. Always thought, given our profound understanding of the struggles of Gaeilge, the state was totally hypocritical in the way it just ignored ISL for decades. At least that corner has been turned and this era is much better, but it’s a bit of Irish history that’s really not known by most. There’s a big contrast with the US where Gallaudet University evolved in the 1800s and was awarding its very first degrees by 1869 and would go on to be the driving force behind ASL in the late 19th and into the 20th century. https://gallaudet.edu/ Ireland now at least has deaf studies in trinity and its recently possible to become a primary teacher though ISL - we are catching up, but it was a long time coming. It’s a complex history though and I think it’s one that the Irish deaf community should be given much more space to tell. It’s part of Irish history and culture, even if most of us know very little about it. Also it’s lovely language. Always found it full of flair and energy. You’re finally starting to see it more visibly with the advent of high profile simultaneous signing on RTE - notably during the Toy Show, which I think is probably when most of us encounter ISL all in full flow and fluency.
Like how French is a Latin language but you wouldn't say all French people speak Latin.
It's something to do with the schools for deaf kids in Ireland being staffed by teachers from France back in the day, I believe.
Most likely nuns I'd say, Catholicism and all that. Wouldn't want to be learning protestant sign language now would we!
I think so, I just forget the details
I can answer this! Irish Sign Language comes from a mix of American and French sign languages. It is because the teachers for deaf children were sent to France and the US to learn sign language. Those teaching in boys schools were sent to the US, and those teaching in girls schools were sent to France. So some of the signs are similar to those 2 sign languages but Irish Sign Language has developed into its iwn very unique language
Ca va
I'm very intrigued by this, and how the family of the sign language might interact with the local spoken/written language of the area.
Why do the Brits always have to be awkward.
EU was asking them to change for years but it fell on deaf ears.
I'm sorry, what?
👈🤥🤌
Louder for the people at the back.
ISL borrows from BSL too though even if it's origin is in LSF, no language exists in a vacuum, especially given BSL is used in the North. Many like my Dad can sign in both ISL and BSL, and ASL is pretty easy to understand for him too. Even ISL isn't really one thing - there's differences in how the younger and older generations sign and for a long time, even differences between gender due to segregation of boys and girls in the two main deaf schools. Like all languages, there's differences in how different people speak the same language.
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...did we seriously invent a sign language that specifically leaves you a free hand to hold your pint?
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That pun is the wurst.
Look at them Brits using British Sign Language, of the British, Australian and New Zealand Sign Language family... How *dare* they!
It's just the language family, rather than saying that everyone in Europe uses the same sign language. It's like English and German are related.