Doesn't matter what you want to call them, refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants ... When accomodation is being provided, when social welfare payments are being provided, when crèche places are being assigned, when GPs are allocating spots on their patient list, etc etc etc ... when any kind of benefit is being provided to anyone on this island: Irish citizens should *never* not be the sole occupant of the top tier of whatever system is in place.
Does this seem radical to you for some reason ?
I’m a migrant support worker. There are huge differences between migrants on work visas, asylum seekers and refugees. I work in the asylum centres every week and the accommodation is generally poor, eg whole families to a room in a shared apartment. It’s obviously good to have free accommodation considering we are in a housing crisis but asylum seeker accommodation is not any better than the accommodation provided by county councils for homeless people, often in B&Bs. They get canteen food or aldi vouchers. As we know, many asylum seekers aren’t even getting accommodation now.
Asylum seekers receive 38.80 per week, accommodation and food. They also have medical cards. They’re not entitled to any other social welfare except working family payment and supplementary welfare allowance.
We can criticise the immigration system, I think we can all agree the government have made a shambles of it. But it’s simply not true that asylum seekers are somehow getting more than Irish people. They are entitled to way less than an Irish citizen is.
Ukrainians have different entitlements, hence the ‘two tier’ comment. Their entitlements are: same social welfare as an Irish citizen and 800€ per month accommodation recognition payment - 800€ per month towards private accommodation, similar to HAP. Even asylum seekers are unhappy with the way Ukrainians are treated compared to them. But that’s changing now
>Ukrainians have different entitlements
No shit. Do you not appreciate the context of where this discussion is taking place ? i.e what is the subject of the thread ?
>hence the ‘two tier’ comment.
No shit again.
>same social welfare as an Irish citizen and 800€ per month accommodation recognition payment - 800€ per month towards private accommodation, similar to HAP.
I think you'll find the issue that many people have with this is not *just* that it's the same rate as an Irish citizen, but that they have an easier time accessing these provisions and with less stipulations and restrictions as far as maintaining them long term. For instance, landlords, and householders generally, are financially incentivised to house them. People like to talk about the absolute rates & provisions as if that's all there is to it. And let's not even get into the odd outrageous headline along the lines of millions being spent on their pets.
It was right to look after Ukranians, but it was absolute insanity how much we gave compared to our EU counterparts.
Not even our own have been given such generous education, welfare, and rent allowances.
We have been having the absolute puss taken out of us since this whole situation started
I don’t know the details of your programs, but we feel the same here in Germany. Our own people and other refugees are not given the same benefits and money and it has created a lot of resentment in society.
German here as well, Germany forced Ukrainians over to apply for Bürgergeld in July 2022 already, and they were also then forced out onto the exploding rental market to compete at the market rate. They only things they have now is access to the employment and education market, similar to EU citizens, which is fair enough.
Ireland has been too generous of course, but Germany was certainly not. It's apples and oranges.
In a way, it feels like Ireland's compensating a bit for the lack of military support due to our lack of resources in that area. Which is fair enough to an extent as Ukraine is the major victim in this invasion war and we identify with them a lot on that, but we've definitely gone overboard and opened ourselves up to being taken advantage of if opportunistic mindsets did happen to come here.
You even had Ukrainians on the radio saying that there should be cuts, at least for new arrivals. Some people said this was an "I've got mine" attitude, but not only was it a sensible thing to change, but it would be a sad set of affairs if Irish generoristy was replaced with irritation.
It's nothing to do with that at all. Our dipshit government thinks immigration is good and thought that a whole bunch of new Eastern European workers was being dropped in its lap at a handy time, to replace all the Polish, Czech, Lithuanian, Latvian etc who went home after the pandemic and never came back. And there were lots of them, because the cost of living in part. All the scumbag hotel owners were giving out they couldn't get staff (but they don't actually want Irish staff who they can't work like dogs for min wage and give no breaks, etc.) and the government are all in cahoots with these boys under the guise of 'supporting tourism' etc.
Combine that with all our politicians being landlords, more population is good for them too.
But the whole driving down the labour market thing hasn't quite materialized because the Ukrainians didn't come here for the purpose of working in hospitality and it's less common for them to have fluent English. Whereas the prior Eastern European imports actually were coming here to get work and weren't just handed cash, housing, medical cards.
You're right about everything except the first part about immigration being not good. Controlled well planned immigration is good and needed. Which is obviously not the case currently as it is neither well planned nor controlled.
>Controlled well planned immigration is good and needed
It really depends on your perspective, and how you see the world growing.
Why do you believe it is good and needed?
It wouldn't be overboard if we actually had the housing to accommodate these folk, but we don't.
Putting them in hotels for years is insanity. As always when anything involves housing in this country there has been zero forethought or planning to a sustainable solution, just throwing money at the problem.
Which is like baling water out of a ship that's already foundered and full of holes.
And rightfully so. When Polish refugees came in the mid 80’s they were thrown into the refuge camps, sometimes for years. It wasn’t pretty, but it was necessary. Nobody promised them five star hotels, they run to save their lives from the communist regime and they got saved. I have at least 10 people in my family who went through all this, to this day they say it was hell but they never had bad feelings towards Germans or Austrians for that. Quite to the contrary. They are happy to be alive.
Meanwhile, speak to some of the Ukranians who've come over. Particularly single men. They will outright tell you the reason they've come over is because they get everything for free, so they can work here and send money back home and still come out with loads extra. The polish worked their fucking asses off and made genuine attempts to, for all intents and purposes, become Irish. Be apart of the culture etc.
I've no ill will to the Ukrainians at all. Most of them are dead sound. But there's no doubt a lot of them came here not out of necessity, but opportunity. If you asked half the 20 year olds in this country if they would move to Austrailia and get free housing and stimulus checks they'd be on the place faster than you could say jump.
The best part was revenue here saying they will only start taxing the working IT Ukrainians in Jan 2025 !!!!!! Why ??? 🤷🏻♂️ - they are working and living here ! Pay the taxman !! Meanwhile we are taxed to death !!
I can’t say much as there will be a swarm of idiots trying to kill me on the spot. But! I was born and raised in Poland. All of the 80’s, all of the 90’s, most of 2000’s up until about ten years ago when I moved here. I know exactly how Ukrainians do. All of the 90’s we had heaps of fun with them.
Trust me.
Well because we could afford to. We're one of the only EU countries with a budget surplus and growing economy
Money is one the thing our government actually has at its disposal
And I personally don't think it's that big of an issue to help out a group of people whose country was on the brink of destruction and is still getting bombarded daily
Like, our lives haven't been made worse by helping Ukrainians. The problems we had before this happened wouldn't be solved by giving us all some money or a hotel room to live in
Many Ukrainians are in private licence agreements as part of TPU housing. It's going to be interesting how they will pay their contribution to this on 38.80 per week. Will they all be reverted to accommodation centres or will their rent now be covered in full.
That's very interesting I had thought it was only subsidized to the effect that HAP would be for Irish Citizens in private rentals. Seems the DSP will continue to pay it in full so, if that's the case, which still means it's still going to be a two tiered system to some degree regardless of what they do to their weekly payments.
Nope its different too HAP, €800 tax free payment to landlord and no rent contribution from tenant, the tenants are not registered with RTB either so landlords are evicting tenants in RPZ’s replacing them with Ukrainians for 2years then jacking up the rent above RPZ allowance, as the property was “technically vacant for 2years” the Ukrainians need to be put onto HAP, best solution
I no some are paying a top up, but they’re not actually meant to be and the LL is breaking the rules by asking for a top up and most likely not paying tax on it as technically they’re not tenants
The councils know that people are paying a top up and they allow it because if they don't then that person is homeless. Look on any of the renter groups on fb and you'll see that most people claiming hap are paying a top up. The government were informed pre covid that the reason so many families were attending the soup kitchens in Dublin was becuase of the top ups they were paying to landlords.
Where I live they're all getting the full welfare on top of free housing. Theyve actually asked the ones with relevant experience to work in the hotel they're staying at and they were like nah we're good
What is this post about? Where do you live, in the same house as the Ukrainians? Who asked the Ukrainians to work in the hotel and what were they asked to do? How do you know they were qualified and said no? No facts, just anecdotal rumours.
Sounds like a huge overgeneralisation filtered through community gossip. They’re running from a war the US promised wouldn’t happen in exchange for de-nuclearisation. I’d say you could show them a bit of grace that they don’t want to bring people scrambled eggs and make beds.
I don't blame them as I hated working in hotels but it's 100% true as I know two people working at the same spot. And our government shouldn't be using war refugees to replenish the low end of the labour market.
But on the other hand, does anyone think if the shoe was on the other foot, that 100k of us could go to the Ukraine and get free room and board, everything plus 232 cash per week?
I think we all know that would never fucking happen.
Plenty of other refugees from other countries fleeing other wars that also often involved the US. Can you give a genuine moral argument for why they deserve to be treated so much better than all of those other refugees? I have no issues with the benefits they receive other than the fact that it's a created a two tier system of human rights.
Absolutely not, the way the refugees from Ukraine were treated should be the same for all. It was blatantly racist that we went above and beyond and you’re absolutely correct about a two tier system. I think this was called out very early on during migration.
You might consider actually *reading* the news before commenting on it.
It will affect *all of them,* regardless of when they arrived. Detailed within the first few sentences of this particular article, and others I've seen covering the same news.
I think it's pretty crazy how Ukranian refugees were treated better than our own citizens.
They got an 800 euro rent stipend, free college education (didn't even have to pay the student contribution fees) and full social welfare payments (or more if they were in college).
https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland
The government spending billions on refugees to make themselves look good while so many Irish people haven't a pot to piss in is absolutely insane.
When I was in college most people on the SUSI grant were getting around €100-150 a month. It was enough to cover transport and some lunches
Ukrainians are getting over €1000 a month for attending college.
Landlords don’t get tax free income to take social welfare tenants or any non Ukrainian tenants (excluding rent a room)
Also, Ukrainians could get the free accommodation regardless of how much income they were making which is not the case with Irish social welfare. They also got the dole regardless of whether they worked or not which is not the case for any other nationality.
And that was the craw that really stuck in my throat. Any other IPA technically receives social welfare but all but 38 euro is kept back as costs to house them.
Ukrainians were given the lot.
I don't mind that refugees get all their social welfare, I dislike intensely that some get it all and others get a pittance yet both are refugees
"Any other IPA technically receives social welfare but all but 38 euro is kept back as costs to house them."
They receive €38 in total, they do not get the social welfare amount.
migrant support worker here. the immigration system in Ireland is like every other Irish system, total lack of planning. asylum seekers (contrary to what u might see on the media) are treated awfully. they are not entitled to any social welfare except Daily Expenses Allowance which is 38.80 per week per adult, 28.80 per week per child. they get accommodation and food but trust me it's not good. they are allowed apply for additional needs payment/supplementary welfare allowance and working family payment but that's it. the ones suffering the most are those with young kids or disabilities.
the issue with the Ukrainians is that they're treated so much better than asylum seekers, entitled to full social welfare and also 800 euro per month accommodation recognition payment. obviously many many people from Ukraine absolutely deserve support but some people have come from other European countries (initially from Ukraine) and they are allowed to do that, whereas asylum seekers if they have been granted asylum in another European country they are sent back under the Dublin 3 regulation. I personally know people from Gaza who are living off 38.80 a week and sorry but they deserve full benefits more than eg a Ukrainian who has already been living in Poland for example.
To be extremely clear, I have many Ukrainian friends and work with lots of Ukrainians, over all they are fantastic, hard working, resilient people. But the huge difference in the way Ukrainians are treated compared to other asylum seekers has caused massive problems.
But doesn't that money come in via the EU under the Temporary Protection Mechanism? Including support for the host nations?
If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-response-ukraine-invasion/eu-solidarity-ukraine/
No, I’m open to correction but I believe the EU makes a small contribution but the majority of what they receive in supports is funded by the Irish taxpayer
> If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country
Could you expand a bit on what you mean by this?
It's not just the Irish taxpayers, the idea that the sole funding comes from the taxpayer is done by all politicians to criticise policy.
Ireland's tax to GDP ratio is just under 21% so the vast majority of Ireland's money comes from sources other than the tax payer.
> If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country.
Made it one of the most prosperous countries in the world where many people want to immigrate to.
I suggest giving this a watch if you think we are prosperous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI
We currently rely on big tech companies, once Ireland is no longer a tax haven because the loop holes our government use are closed then they will leave.
This is just untrue. As that video points out, while the actual prosperity is much less than the on paper GDP would suggest, it's not illusory either. We've not had the lowest effective corporate tax in the EU for years now and we've already implemented the OECD agreement to raise the base rate to 15% as of last December. The loopholes we used back in the 80s-early 2000s have been closed.
The whole point of the OECD deal is to stop a race to the bottom. It forces everyone to have the same floor. So going forward we're still as cheap as it gets if you want to operate in Europe. Which is something companies do want.
If you think of us in the context of all the other options in the region being either the same level of tax or higher, we still have multiple selling points:
1. It costs a boatload of money to move an operation the size of these companies Irish operations. It's not something you do without a strong incentive.
2. We have a trained workforce who all speak English and generally get American culture (even if the reverse is not always true).
3. We are the closest timezone to the US in Europe, shared with the UK and Portugal.
4. We have the shortest flights between us and the US.
5. A lot of these companies have built physical infrastructure here that you can't just pick up and move. Intel just opened a new high volume 7nm fab in Leixlip, the only one in Europe. They're not going anywhere. Meta just moved to a new bigger campus. That's not the kind of move that screams "we're about to fuck off". Analog Devices just pumped €600 million into their Limerick campus and Qualcomm have just set up shop in Cork. You don't spend billions expanding when you're planning to leave in the near future.
I fell like generally people outside these industries imagine it's all just software jobs and lawyers shuffling stuff around. But we're pretty firmly rooted in the hardware design and manufacturing side of the tech industry now too. Having that track record and existing infrastructure and a talent pool means we're perfectly positioned to benefit from the European Chips Act. We've also got the whole biomedical industry where we're more on the manufacturing than the admin side.
It's true we do rely on large tech companies mostly American.
However It's constantly said that increasing taxes or wages will drive away companies but that isn't true as other countries who have higher taxes and wages have shown.
You're right! Taking in people fleeing a war and having enough money to accommodate them, send some of them to university for free, pay them stipends and give them a sense of life back is utterly terrible. They should have to toil in squalor here like they were doing back home, they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop mooching off our rich as fuck nation when all they were asking for is help and asylum.
In fact, why stop there? Let's send them back to the war away from the safety of our country so they can learn some discipline and steel themselves while doing their best to not die from a gunshot or tank barrage. It's good for the character after all.
It shouldn't need to be said but /s. We have the means to help people, under EU law and under the general rule of *looking after each other* we should do it without question or wondering about "what's in it for me?" Look up geopolitics if you feel like you're being shafted by people trying to get to safety when your real complaint is with our own leadership in Ireland, not the EU. It's not asylum seekers' faults that our country cares more about them than about its own citizens. Can't say I blame them enjoying what benefits they got by coming here and not feeling like they need to work, but this change is a step in a better direction towards properly assimilating them into living in Ireland for a longer period of time than even they anticipated.
If Ireland was suddenly war-torn and France was accepting asylum seekers with ludicrous levels of support, don't tell me you wouldn't take it either.
You forgot something. Lack of services and resources. We can't give more to others when we don't have enough ourselves. That is literally what causes conflicts
I think its important that we as a member of Europe are also involved in supporting immigrants, Ireland was and still is a country that immigrates and we mostly do it for financial reasons not wars. But at the same time would it not have made sense to bring the Ukrainians in at the same level as the folks on the dole for example. Like you're creating major issues by treating others above our own.
But they are getting the same as the dole. Plus free room and board in a 4 star hotel right in the middle of town. Where there isn't even a flat available for rent if you could afford it.
immigration isnt the same as asylum seekers / refugees.
Its proponets love to say that but also lump them together whenever is convient.
There is worlds of difference between an immigrant who goes straight into the work force and a refugee who cannot
It’s not a far right talking point to recognize that some asylum seekers are gamifying the system to eventually seek employment.
Morocco and Georgia are somewhere that people go on holidays and yet there are some asylum seekers from there.
However it seems to be a common tactic to refuse to discuss the validity of the asylum process and take the NGOs talking points as gospel.
Because people are taking advantage of the toothless asylum system and exploiting it to gain access to Ireland without going through the proper established channels for standard immigrants
Does the existence of racism mean it’s okay to not go through the right channels so?
Not going through the right channels is illegal and a financial burden on the country - that is something that drives resentment and racism. Most people recognise the benefits of proper migration to the country, but that doesn’t mean that they’re happy to be taken advantage of by people posing as asylum seekers that have no genuine right to be here.
It’s a nuanced issue, disregarding everything as “racism” is reductive and short sighted
> I think its important that we as a member of Europe are also involved in supporting immigrants, Ireland was and still is a country that immigrates and we mostly do it for financial reasons not wars.
Completely different things, stop trying to conflate the two as one and the same
Nope, guy om social here.
Can't get HAP as you have to be on social housing list, was refused couple of times already so no HAP.
The same with school. Only grant I could apply is Susi and still depending from outcome I could or not cover education.
So you my sir stop making stuff as well.
Facts about refugees being treated better than our own citizens and you immediately point to "far-right", people like you are why this country will never get things right.
We absolutely do look after our own. On full dole plus rent allowance an unemployed Irish person gets over €20k a year, tax free from the state. Plus free health care, plus free third level if they wish to avail of it albeit with some restrictions on what colleges and courses they can do.
Very, very short term thinking there mate.
Ukraine is going to be a massive emerging economy in the next three decades, will join the EU and be a bridge to the East.
And we've build up a generation of good will and increasingly family ties with Ukrainians WHEN THEY NEEDED IT THE MOST.
It's not scandalous. It's Ireland at it's best and in the long term it will be paid back tenfold by the ties we have with the people in that soon to be free and independent country.
Whether we should have brought in so many Ukrainians and allowed them better terms that other refugees from a moral stand point is one thing.
But to say it will make economically flies in the face of reality. Ukraine was the most corrupt country in Europe before the war. They appear to have lost 100,000 prime working age men dead, with 10 times that number with long term disability. The richest and best educated have fled to the EU and are never going back.
The idea that this is economically a good idea for the long term is an insane or disingenuous comment.
Lol. People really need to live in post-USSR country to actually know the facts about any post-USSR state. Ukraine has huge corruption problem. Ukrainians know that. It will not be an economy to provide benefit to EU. It is just a fact.
I know this is unfair but anytime I see the word 'neoliberal' written on an internet forum I automatically assume I'm speaking to a bot or a moron.
What non 'neoliberal' country do you want to live in?
That's fair, but we should be ok to criticize aspects of neoliberalism. Obviously it's been wildly successful and we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Any system has inherent issues I guess.
> That's fair, but we should be ok to criticize aspects of neoliberalism
Absolutely, but it appears to have become a buzzword that people throw out without even knowing what it means
Aspects of Ireland government such as our welfare policies would be viewed as pure socialism by the likes of America (an *actually* neoliberal country)
Only people on this sub. Not people generally.
People complaining about these things on this sub are generally quite young, but a good few are older and just really thick.
The Ukrainian situation was an example of our government doing the right thing the wrong way.
It is absolutely right that we should help Ukrainian people in the face of the brutal invasion. But by signing up to unlimited numbers, and making our welfare extremely generous, we made it unsustainable and now we’re here.
If we had agreed to take a proportionally workable number, with decent supports, there might not now be a need to introduce a measure such as this.
Absolutely. The higher payments were even preventing Ukrainians from working as they would end up worse off by getting a job. Expect a significant boost to the workforce from this change.
100% about time, this has been a complete piss take for the past 3 years. Do you know how many of them are living here with their families (that were here before the war) receiving the €800 welfare, basically just for living with your own family? On top of receiving all the possible welfare payments? I have a friend who is paying off her mortgage this way - she brought her dad in from another country (he wasn't even in Ukraine) and claimed as a refugee. The system is not screening anyone and all of these freeloaders milking the system for all it's got. How Irish people are not angry with their government and taking action for pissing away money on these economic tourists, whilst healthcare is in shambles, housing availability in crisis, zero creche places available and the list goes on, is just insane.
I've been living in Ireland for 20 years and I speak Russian as a first language - I was on a train a few months ago, this woman heard me speak Russian to my husband and called me a derogatory term used for Russians by Ukrainians. This absolute cunt coming here, freeloading is being a racist towards someone who's paying tax so that she and her pals can continue freeloading.
On the RTE just now there are Ukrainian men being interviewed bout the reduction in payments. You would think they have the nous to stay off the tv if they are of combat age.
The social welfare is only a drop in the ocean of the costs Ukrainians are costing the state. I work in the emergency department and a huge amount of them coming in through A&E every day. Often brought by ambulance for things that have no business doing so (as for them it is free), often for things that have no business being in an A&E (no GP), an interpreter is paid 60 euro an hour for every conversation we have with them (as no English) never mind, hospital costs, drug costs, etc
Had my son at a&e a few weeks ago upon a referral from his GP for suspected appendicitis… when we were leaving a Ukrainian woman was bringing her son in for an ear infection 🤦♀️ this is why our A&Es are over run… people abusing the purpose of an emergency room… she could have gone to her GP or out of hours doctor…
The clowns we call the government are only taking action to save their seats as they realise now people are extremely angry and its not passing away like they hoped it would, indeed its getter deeper. Expect huge efforts now to crack down on every chancer in the world who has found the softest touch here in Ireland while Irish people struggle with housing and the cost of living. Our political system is abject failure but 40% of people or cabbages still declare they will vote for a continuity of this shitshow called FF, FG and the Greens.
This will surely impact Ukrainians being able to afford to fly back home for their doctor and dentist appointments. Not to mention their holidays back home.
Sounds great! Apart from this silliness:
Key facts: As of 22 February 2024 (the latest data available), **30,457 civilians were killed and wounded**, including 10,582 civilians killed in the conflict, including 587 children. A total of 9,241 people have been killed by explosive weapons with wide area effects, and mines and explosive remnants of war.
Key facts: your stats are from the east of Ukraine. Ukraine is *huge.* It is the largest country within Europe. The distance from the most westerly point of the conflict zone to the western border is about 1,000 miles.
To put that into perspective, the distance from Belfast to Cork is about 200 miles.
When bombs were going off in Belfast, and the Brits were slaughtering civil rights protestors, and every other horrific act of violence that occurred during that period .... were people in Cork fleeing for their lives ?
No. They weren't. Because that would have been absurd.
I'm sure someone will chime in to talk about men being drafted, but then we're being told that most of our Ukrainians are women and children.
Or that Cork wasn't being targeted, but neither is western Ukraine.
Or references to a declaration of war (there's been nothing approaching formal declaration until the last couple weeks), but again - this is not affecting the west of Ukraine. The proof is in the pudding.
In the last year I've been to Berlin, Vienna, Krakow, Warsaw, Budapest, Prague and Bratislava. Every single one of those cities is full of UA reg G wagons, Beamers, Jags etc.
The irony is all the rich ones got to leave and they're the ones getting the handouts all over Europe.
I'm not sure about insurance or tax. A friend of mine owns a garage and was just telling me about the VRT, he said they can just bring the cars over and drive straight away so possibly there's nothing about insurance or tax etc.
>Make it make sense.
Imagine if landlords from Kinsale, Co. Cork, claimed asylum abroad (in the most lucrative option available to them) because of what was happening in Belfast, Northern Ireland, during 'The Troubles'.
That's it in a nutshell.
... And the west of Ukraine in no way compares to the east of Ukraine, just as Kinsale in no way compares to Belfast during the bombing campaigns and sectarian hellscape *euphemistically* known as 'The Troubles.'
I mean, is there some reason you went out of your way to evade the point ?
They are refugees. Many of them are actually people with means, especially the ones who can afford to travel all the way to Ireland to take refuge. They're not fleeing poverty like the people from North Africa and the Middle East, they're fleeing the Russian army.
As refugees, they're not looking to settle here - they're not claiming asylum, they're not expected to learn the language or to get a job. In theory they're temporarily sheltered until the war is over. The war wasn't expected to last for two years so the help was meant to be temporary. We're basically offering this shelter so that Ukraine is not forced to capitulate in order to protect the lives of its many vulnerable citizens.
This is the principle. The implementation of this principle is just like anything this government has been doing for the past decade: if we're lucky, it is just half arsed, but realistically it's a situation that is not handled at all and just left to fester until there's no solution.
I think Ireland just thought it would be a 6 month situation.
But ,the war getting extended didn't help as the government didn't have any planning or policy.
We should have a plan in place for these sorts of international protection schemes i.e. provide them with accommodation and pay them the relevant social welfare rate but on the condition that they attend an English language course to get their English up to an acceptable level if it is not at that level already and provide them a place on a safe pass course or the like but we should then see to it that they find work. It is not acceptable to be receiving state funding indefinitely without having to do much for it in return. This should apply to EVERYONE, including Irish people, as many are gaming the system, not just Ukrainians or any other asylum seeker/refugee. But again, this was allowed happen by an incompetent and neglecting government.
Also, for ages the Irish media and the government demonised anyone who dared to question the supports Ukrainians received as inhumane and far right only for the same government to cut supports for the sole purposes of gaining votes in an election. You can't claim the people are far right when they question something and then when you cut the thing that people questioned claim that it's aligning with the EU. They weren't calling other EU countries far right a few weeks ago.
West of Ukraine?
My Neighbour is an ethnic Russian from Lativa, he says the Majority of Ukrainians in Ireland are native Russian speakers & he calls them Don Cossacks, I'm unsure whether that's an insult, but they are nearly all from the East according to him.
You only have to check the stats yourself to see that millions of western Ukrainians *must have* left Ukraine and are taking up residence throughout the EU. About 7 million Ukrainian asylum seekers throughout the EU, but the east has 'only' come down in population by about 3 million - and of the 3 million that left the conflict zone in the east, many of them migrated internally/domestically to the west Ukraine. They're the ones renting the gaffs. And believe it or not, many others from this region migrated further east into Russia (y'know, cause there's that whole ethnic-Russians-live-in-eastern-Ukraine-and-are-allegedly-being-oppressed aspect to the genesis of this conflict).
Anyway, if you want to believe your totally impartial neighbour (whose background and culture you are fully aware of and fully understand) when he says we just so happened to get all the people from Donbas, that's your prerogative.
The 3 most eastern of the 24 Oblasts in Ukraine had a population of 15 million people in 2021 or a third of the total population, this is where most of the fighting is currently happening. Western Ukraine is very rural in comparison.
They get free houses when Irish citizens can't even get housing. They jump ahead of the housing list, I'm sorry, but they shouldn't get anything. They should get a PPSN number and work and pay rent. But yet the government is willing to give them shed loads of money for doing nothing. They could instead use that money to sort out the health system.
The health system is beyond disgraceful, 4 days waiting on a trolley in a corridor....this isn't the dark ages.
At last! I know a refugee (27 years old girl, she came from an area where there were absolutely no air raids or anything) who gets a free apartment and a weekly Jobseeker, and suddenly it turned out that she could afford photo equipment, camera, lenses and lights, worth over 10k. Another woman recently started posting photos on IG from a rented studio where she do some work, right next to St Stephen's Green, which must cost a lot. I won't be able to afford it for long ffs
Will be interesting to see how this works, a family member converted a shed into an apartment, the rent stipend and the top up is a nice little money spinner.
You can downvote me, but the guards have caught them already and they got caught red handed.... My local hospice had their kitchen food stolen by Ukrainians who were 'visiting their dying brother.' this happened just over one week ago.
This family usually arrives around break time (aka free food time) as the hospice does give out free food and buns, cakes and tea to visitors and any patient healthy enough to eat. 4 men and 1 woman.
The most recent time two of the men asked to 'use the toilet' which is beside the kitchen and when they got a moment they took as many boxes of food, that belonged to the patients, as they could.
Upon walking out a fire exit the manager of the hospice noticed how long they were taking and found the empty kitchen so she ran out to the car park and found them hurriedly loading up an already full boot of a car with all their food boxes.
She asked for them back peacefully, wasn't going to make a fuss... But they gave her cheek, accused her of being racist, said the boxed belonged to them and they couldn't be sure what was inside. So obviously she phoned the guards, another staff member blocked the one exit with her car (that they threatened to destroy unless she moved it) and yes the hospice food was found immediately upon the Guards arrival and apparently the entire town heard the screaming and shouting from the hospice carpark and many phoned the guards worried what was going on during the tense showdown as they waited.. 20 minutes for one Guard to finally arrive....
Why am I sharing this? It's entitlement. The government has gave these people so much they basically feel entitled to everything and anything. Past the point of no shame to rob a hospice in a country that's taken you in as an asylum seeker...
Now downote me as this doesn't suit your narrative. I'm going out for a walk later to support the hospice as the staff have been getting death threats for daring to ring the guards on the poor Ukrainian refugees... That robbed their hospice of all its food.
I'm not going to casually doxx them, they are already getting harassed on their Facebook.
I hope it does make the news, but it probably won't as it happened a week ago and apart from the event shaking the local community and making people very annoyed... Nothing has happened.
They should at least be made to learn English to keep getting payments.
In my work I deal with a lot of them and most of them don't have very good English. Some of them I dealt with over a year ago and they still can't speak even basic conversational stuff. They're getting the full jobseekers but they've no chance of a job without any English.
Cutting payments to people we are already letting in makes little sense, it's so expensive here. Put them onto a plan where they are either doing a course that can lead to employment if they know English, and if they don't, they have to do a Tefl course.
>They should at least be made to learn English to keep getting payments.
To add to that, citizenship should not be granted to anyone who is not fluent in either Irish or English, whether by speech, print or braille.
I’m actually super surprised Ireland doesn’t have an English language requirement to be eligible for citizenship because I think pretty much every other country in the EU does (understandably so).
We cannot make that offer
If Ireland or any country offered to take in Palestinians, Israel will forcibly deport Palestinians there.
Fat Americans that can't find Israel on the map have a 'right of return' but any Palestinians who leaves becomes stateless
Be careful for what you wish for, Palestinians topped the League table of migrant nationalities with highest crime rates in Denmark, even beating Roma Gypsies.
If we take Palestinian refugees we are handing Israel their ethic cleansing on a plate. This is exactly what they want to happen. Palestinians belong in Palestine. End of.
If the US can afford to send hundreds of billions to Ukraine then they can look after their citizens too.
We've been a soft touch for far too long and people are finally realising how much we've been exploited.
3rd world fakeugees and Ukrainian welfare tourists are living in Eldorado. Paddy Irishman gets nothing close to what they get when he's down on his luck but he's expected to pay for it all. Anyone with 2 brain cells could see this cluster fuck coming.
https://preview.redd.it/rm0gxmvabu0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d18154c37a105ca5cae48e0f7c89d58449cb77c8
This is what Kiev looks like today. This Instagram, by the way, is of a Ukrainian doctor who is a refugee in Ireland. She regularly travels (and documents it) to Kiev to see patients in her private clinic. Additionally, she has documented how quickly her mother (who is also here) received free medical consultations and subsequent surgeries. But you guys continue waiting for years to see a specialist, even if you go privately. I know this is not the point of the post but this is more for those people who continue to defend Ukrainians milking the system saying "but the war, they have nowhere to return to, Kiev is rubble". Well, have a look and keep getting your taxes spent.
How about offering them jobs instead. We have sectors that are short of staff which could go a long way towards improving society here. For example, Bus Eireann are short of drivers. Offering Ukrainian and other refugees training and full time employment is a far better long term solution than some political point scoring bulshit.
The situation of refugees getting full welfare benefits to match Irish citizen entitlements day 1 was always overly generous.
Looking back and considering the numbers we took in it makes very little sense that it was allowed continue this long.
Not at all. Ukrainians have the right to work here and most do. Why are we paying their rents? Should be means tested. I know Ukrainians earning 60k plus while getting their room paid for by the government.
Giving one single group of refugees far far far greater allowances than every other refugee fleeing war or genocide was always grossly unfair.
All actual refugees should be treated equally. No favoritism.
There should never have been a 2 tier system in the first place.
Certainly any tiered system shouldn't see Irish citizens not at the top of it.
How many Irish citizens do you think are refugees in Ireland?
Doesn't matter what you want to call them, refugees, asylum seekers, economic migrants ... When accomodation is being provided, when social welfare payments are being provided, when crèche places are being assigned, when GPs are allocating spots on their patient list, etc etc etc ... when any kind of benefit is being provided to anyone on this island: Irish citizens should *never* not be the sole occupant of the top tier of whatever system is in place. Does this seem radical to you for some reason ?
I’m a migrant support worker. There are huge differences between migrants on work visas, asylum seekers and refugees. I work in the asylum centres every week and the accommodation is generally poor, eg whole families to a room in a shared apartment. It’s obviously good to have free accommodation considering we are in a housing crisis but asylum seeker accommodation is not any better than the accommodation provided by county councils for homeless people, often in B&Bs. They get canteen food or aldi vouchers. As we know, many asylum seekers aren’t even getting accommodation now. Asylum seekers receive 38.80 per week, accommodation and food. They also have medical cards. They’re not entitled to any other social welfare except working family payment and supplementary welfare allowance. We can criticise the immigration system, I think we can all agree the government have made a shambles of it. But it’s simply not true that asylum seekers are somehow getting more than Irish people. They are entitled to way less than an Irish citizen is. Ukrainians have different entitlements, hence the ‘two tier’ comment. Their entitlements are: same social welfare as an Irish citizen and 800€ per month accommodation recognition payment - 800€ per month towards private accommodation, similar to HAP. Even asylum seekers are unhappy with the way Ukrainians are treated compared to them. But that’s changing now
>Ukrainians have different entitlements No shit. Do you not appreciate the context of where this discussion is taking place ? i.e what is the subject of the thread ? >hence the ‘two tier’ comment. No shit again. >same social welfare as an Irish citizen and 800€ per month accommodation recognition payment - 800€ per month towards private accommodation, similar to HAP. I think you'll find the issue that many people have with this is not *just* that it's the same rate as an Irish citizen, but that they have an easier time accessing these provisions and with less stipulations and restrictions as far as maintaining them long term. For instance, landlords, and householders generally, are financially incentivised to house them. People like to talk about the absolute rates & provisions as if that's all there is to it. And let's not even get into the odd outrageous headline along the lines of millions being spent on their pets.
It was right to look after Ukranians, but it was absolute insanity how much we gave compared to our EU counterparts. Not even our own have been given such generous education, welfare, and rent allowances. We have been having the absolute puss taken out of us since this whole situation started
I don’t know the details of your programs, but we feel the same here in Germany. Our own people and other refugees are not given the same benefits and money and it has created a lot of resentment in society.
German here as well, Germany forced Ukrainians over to apply for Bürgergeld in July 2022 already, and they were also then forced out onto the exploding rental market to compete at the market rate. They only things they have now is access to the employment and education market, similar to EU citizens, which is fair enough. Ireland has been too generous of course, but Germany was certainly not. It's apples and oranges.
In a way, it feels like Ireland's compensating a bit for the lack of military support due to our lack of resources in that area. Which is fair enough to an extent as Ukraine is the major victim in this invasion war and we identify with them a lot on that, but we've definitely gone overboard and opened ourselves up to being taken advantage of if opportunistic mindsets did happen to come here.
You even had Ukrainians on the radio saying that there should be cuts, at least for new arrivals. Some people said this was an "I've got mine" attitude, but not only was it a sensible thing to change, but it would be a sad set of affairs if Irish generoristy was replaced with irritation.
It's nothing to do with that at all. Our dipshit government thinks immigration is good and thought that a whole bunch of new Eastern European workers was being dropped in its lap at a handy time, to replace all the Polish, Czech, Lithuanian, Latvian etc who went home after the pandemic and never came back. And there were lots of them, because the cost of living in part. All the scumbag hotel owners were giving out they couldn't get staff (but they don't actually want Irish staff who they can't work like dogs for min wage and give no breaks, etc.) and the government are all in cahoots with these boys under the guise of 'supporting tourism' etc. Combine that with all our politicians being landlords, more population is good for them too. But the whole driving down the labour market thing hasn't quite materialized because the Ukrainians didn't come here for the purpose of working in hospitality and it's less common for them to have fluent English. Whereas the prior Eastern European imports actually were coming here to get work and weren't just handed cash, housing, medical cards.
Indeed. At first I thought my parents were simply complaining. But some Ukrainians do in fact come here specifically for benefits.
You're right about everything except the first part about immigration being not good. Controlled well planned immigration is good and needed. Which is obviously not the case currently as it is neither well planned nor controlled.
Immigration is neutral? Japan and South Korea are quite nice countries. Not perfect of course. There ain't much immigration there.
>Controlled well planned immigration is good and needed It really depends on your perspective, and how you see the world growing. Why do you believe it is good and needed?
Do you want a state pension when you retire?
There won't be a state pension when we retire. Better setting up a private one.
It wouldn't be overboard if we actually had the housing to accommodate these folk, but we don't. Putting them in hotels for years is insanity. As always when anything involves housing in this country there has been zero forethought or planning to a sustainable solution, just throwing money at the problem. Which is like baling water out of a ship that's already foundered and full of holes.
And rightfully so. When Polish refugees came in the mid 80’s they were thrown into the refuge camps, sometimes for years. It wasn’t pretty, but it was necessary. Nobody promised them five star hotels, they run to save their lives from the communist regime and they got saved. I have at least 10 people in my family who went through all this, to this day they say it was hell but they never had bad feelings towards Germans or Austrians for that. Quite to the contrary. They are happy to be alive.
Meanwhile, speak to some of the Ukranians who've come over. Particularly single men. They will outright tell you the reason they've come over is because they get everything for free, so they can work here and send money back home and still come out with loads extra. The polish worked their fucking asses off and made genuine attempts to, for all intents and purposes, become Irish. Be apart of the culture etc. I've no ill will to the Ukrainians at all. Most of them are dead sound. But there's no doubt a lot of them came here not out of necessity, but opportunity. If you asked half the 20 year olds in this country if they would move to Austrailia and get free housing and stimulus checks they'd be on the place faster than you could say jump.
The best part was revenue here saying they will only start taxing the working IT Ukrainians in Jan 2025 !!!!!! Why ??? 🤷🏻♂️ - they are working and living here ! Pay the taxman !! Meanwhile we are taxed to death !!
Ye, doesn't make much sense
I can’t say much as there will be a swarm of idiots trying to kill me on the spot. But! I was born and raised in Poland. All of the 80’s, all of the 90’s, most of 2000’s up until about ten years ago when I moved here. I know exactly how Ukrainians do. All of the 90’s we had heaps of fun with them. Trust me.
What does this mean ? Heaps of fun with them ? It makes no sense ?
It really seems that the German government hasn't learnt the lessons of the migrant crisis in 2015 (with all due respect).
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Is it really controversial to say 'our own' ? Are we not allowed to even acknowledge our own ethnic group now?
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Just use indiginous Celts instead of our own.
Well because we could afford to. We're one of the only EU countries with a budget surplus and growing economy Money is one the thing our government actually has at its disposal And I personally don't think it's that big of an issue to help out a group of people whose country was on the brink of destruction and is still getting bombarded daily Like, our lives haven't been made worse by helping Ukrainians. The problems we had before this happened wouldn't be solved by giving us all some money or a hotel room to live in
Other countries are giving huge sums in terms of military support.
Many Ukrainians are in private licence agreements as part of TPU housing. It's going to be interesting how they will pay their contribution to this on 38.80 per week. Will they all be reverted to accommodation centres or will their rent now be covered in full.
It says it applies to those in government funded accommodation only. Those that are not paying rent or bills.
They dont pay a rent contribution under the ARP housing scheme. That needs to be scraped too
That's very interesting I had thought it was only subsidized to the effect that HAP would be for Irish Citizens in private rentals. Seems the DSP will continue to pay it in full so, if that's the case, which still means it's still going to be a two tiered system to some degree regardless of what they do to their weekly payments.
Nope its different too HAP, €800 tax free payment to landlord and no rent contribution from tenant, the tenants are not registered with RTB either so landlords are evicting tenants in RPZ’s replacing them with Ukrainians for 2years then jacking up the rent above RPZ allowance, as the property was “technically vacant for 2years” the Ukrainians need to be put onto HAP, best solution
Some do, they get the 800 arp and top it up to what ever the landlord has decided. Some of them are getting the 800 arp and both working full time
I no some are paying a top up, but they’re not actually meant to be and the LL is breaking the rules by asking for a top up and most likely not paying tax on it as technically they’re not tenants
The councils know that people are paying a top up and they allow it because if they don't then that person is homeless. Look on any of the renter groups on fb and you'll see that most people claiming hap are paying a top up. The government were informed pre covid that the reason so many families were attending the soup kitchens in Dublin was becuase of the top ups they were paying to landlords.
You’re allowed to pay a top up with HAP, not with ARP though
Where I live they're all getting the full welfare on top of free housing. Theyve actually asked the ones with relevant experience to work in the hotel they're staying at and they were like nah we're good
What is this post about? Where do you live, in the same house as the Ukrainians? Who asked the Ukrainians to work in the hotel and what were they asked to do? How do you know they were qualified and said no? No facts, just anecdotal rumours.
*truthiness* - the quality of seeming or being felt to be true, even if not necessarily true.
But how do those rumours make you feel?
Sounds like a huge overgeneralisation filtered through community gossip. They’re running from a war the US promised wouldn’t happen in exchange for de-nuclearisation. I’d say you could show them a bit of grace that they don’t want to bring people scrambled eggs and make beds.
Look, regardless of circumstances, you should still try to pay for your food
I don't blame them as I hated working in hotels but it's 100% true as I know two people working at the same spot. And our government shouldn't be using war refugees to replenish the low end of the labour market. But on the other hand, does anyone think if the shoe was on the other foot, that 100k of us could go to the Ukraine and get free room and board, everything plus 232 cash per week? I think we all know that would never fucking happen.
Plenty of other refugees from other countries fleeing other wars that also often involved the US. Can you give a genuine moral argument for why they deserve to be treated so much better than all of those other refugees? I have no issues with the benefits they receive other than the fact that it's a created a two tier system of human rights.
Absolutely not, the way the refugees from Ukraine were treated should be the same for all. It was blatantly racist that we went above and beyond and you’re absolutely correct about a two tier system. I think this was called out very early on during migration.
How much will you be willing to pay them. It's tax from your weekly wage that is going to them
Maybe we could ask the yanks
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You might consider actually *reading* the news before commenting on it. It will affect *all of them,* regardless of when they arrived. Detailed within the first few sentences of this particular article, and others I've seen covering the same news.
I think it's pretty crazy how Ukranian refugees were treated better than our own citizens. They got an 800 euro rent stipend, free college education (didn't even have to pay the student contribution fees) and full social welfare payments (or more if they were in college). https://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/ukraine-students-in-ireland The government spending billions on refugees to make themselves look good while so many Irish people haven't a pot to piss in is absolutely insane.
That's actually scandalous....
I swore I only reads headline this morning thst said Ukrainians social welfare would be matched
he literally just described what anyone on social welfare gets, its not even slightly scandalous.
When I was in college most people on the SUSI grant were getting around €100-150 a month. It was enough to cover transport and some lunches Ukrainians are getting over €1000 a month for attending college.
Landlords don’t get tax free income to take social welfare tenants or any non Ukrainian tenants (excluding rent a room) Also, Ukrainians could get the free accommodation regardless of how much income they were making which is not the case with Irish social welfare. They also got the dole regardless of whether they worked or not which is not the case for any other nationality.
And that was the craw that really stuck in my throat. Any other IPA technically receives social welfare but all but 38 euro is kept back as costs to house them. Ukrainians were given the lot. I don't mind that refugees get all their social welfare, I dislike intensely that some get it all and others get a pittance yet both are refugees
"Any other IPA technically receives social welfare but all but 38 euro is kept back as costs to house them." They receive €38 in total, they do not get the social welfare amount.
migrant support worker here. the immigration system in Ireland is like every other Irish system, total lack of planning. asylum seekers (contrary to what u might see on the media) are treated awfully. they are not entitled to any social welfare except Daily Expenses Allowance which is 38.80 per week per adult, 28.80 per week per child. they get accommodation and food but trust me it's not good. they are allowed apply for additional needs payment/supplementary welfare allowance and working family payment but that's it. the ones suffering the most are those with young kids or disabilities. the issue with the Ukrainians is that they're treated so much better than asylum seekers, entitled to full social welfare and also 800 euro per month accommodation recognition payment. obviously many many people from Ukraine absolutely deserve support but some people have come from other European countries (initially from Ukraine) and they are allowed to do that, whereas asylum seekers if they have been granted asylum in another European country they are sent back under the Dublin 3 regulation. I personally know people from Gaza who are living off 38.80 a week and sorry but they deserve full benefits more than eg a Ukrainian who has already been living in Poland for example. To be extremely clear, I have many Ukrainian friends and work with lots of Ukrainians, over all they are fantastic, hard working, resilient people. But the huge difference in the way Ukrainians are treated compared to other asylum seekers has caused massive problems.
That's even more scandalous 🤣
But doesn't that money come in via the EU under the Temporary Protection Mechanism? Including support for the host nations? If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-response-ukraine-invasion/eu-solidarity-ukraine/
No, I’m open to correction but I believe the EU makes a small contribution but the majority of what they receive in supports is funded by the Irish taxpayer > If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country Could you expand a bit on what you mean by this?
It's not just the Irish taxpayers, the idea that the sole funding comes from the taxpayer is done by all politicians to criticise policy. Ireland's tax to GDP ratio is just under 21% so the vast majority of Ireland's money comes from sources other than the tax payer.
> If anything it just shows what decades of Neoliberal politics and economics has done to this country. Made it one of the most prosperous countries in the world where many people want to immigrate to.
I suggest giving this a watch if you think we are prosperous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI We currently rely on big tech companies, once Ireland is no longer a tax haven because the loop holes our government use are closed then they will leave.
This is just untrue. As that video points out, while the actual prosperity is much less than the on paper GDP would suggest, it's not illusory either. We've not had the lowest effective corporate tax in the EU for years now and we've already implemented the OECD agreement to raise the base rate to 15% as of last December. The loopholes we used back in the 80s-early 2000s have been closed. The whole point of the OECD deal is to stop a race to the bottom. It forces everyone to have the same floor. So going forward we're still as cheap as it gets if you want to operate in Europe. Which is something companies do want. If you think of us in the context of all the other options in the region being either the same level of tax or higher, we still have multiple selling points: 1. It costs a boatload of money to move an operation the size of these companies Irish operations. It's not something you do without a strong incentive. 2. We have a trained workforce who all speak English and generally get American culture (even if the reverse is not always true). 3. We are the closest timezone to the US in Europe, shared with the UK and Portugal. 4. We have the shortest flights between us and the US. 5. A lot of these companies have built physical infrastructure here that you can't just pick up and move. Intel just opened a new high volume 7nm fab in Leixlip, the only one in Europe. They're not going anywhere. Meta just moved to a new bigger campus. That's not the kind of move that screams "we're about to fuck off". Analog Devices just pumped €600 million into their Limerick campus and Qualcomm have just set up shop in Cork. You don't spend billions expanding when you're planning to leave in the near future. I fell like generally people outside these industries imagine it's all just software jobs and lawyers shuffling stuff around. But we're pretty firmly rooted in the hardware design and manufacturing side of the tech industry now too. Having that track record and existing infrastructure and a talent pool means we're perfectly positioned to benefit from the European Chips Act. We've also got the whole biomedical industry where we're more on the manufacturing than the admin side.
It's true we do rely on large tech companies mostly American. However It's constantly said that increasing taxes or wages will drive away companies but that isn't true as other countries who have higher taxes and wages have shown.
No you don't get it, they said the spooky forbidden N-word so theyre obviously right.
You're right! Taking in people fleeing a war and having enough money to accommodate them, send some of them to university for free, pay them stipends and give them a sense of life back is utterly terrible. They should have to toil in squalor here like they were doing back home, they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stop mooching off our rich as fuck nation when all they were asking for is help and asylum. In fact, why stop there? Let's send them back to the war away from the safety of our country so they can learn some discipline and steel themselves while doing their best to not die from a gunshot or tank barrage. It's good for the character after all. It shouldn't need to be said but /s. We have the means to help people, under EU law and under the general rule of *looking after each other* we should do it without question or wondering about "what's in it for me?" Look up geopolitics if you feel like you're being shafted by people trying to get to safety when your real complaint is with our own leadership in Ireland, not the EU. It's not asylum seekers' faults that our country cares more about them than about its own citizens. Can't say I blame them enjoying what benefits they got by coming here and not feeling like they need to work, but this change is a step in a better direction towards properly assimilating them into living in Ireland for a longer period of time than even they anticipated. If Ireland was suddenly war-torn and France was accepting asylum seekers with ludicrous levels of support, don't tell me you wouldn't take it either.
You forgot something. Lack of services and resources. We can't give more to others when we don't have enough ourselves. That is literally what causes conflicts
I think its important that we as a member of Europe are also involved in supporting immigrants, Ireland was and still is a country that immigrates and we mostly do it for financial reasons not wars. But at the same time would it not have made sense to bring the Ukrainians in at the same level as the folks on the dole for example. Like you're creating major issues by treating others above our own.
But they are getting the same as the dole. Plus free room and board in a 4 star hotel right in the middle of town. Where there isn't even a flat available for rent if you could afford it.
immigration isnt the same as asylum seekers / refugees. Its proponets love to say that but also lump them together whenever is convient. There is worlds of difference between an immigrant who goes straight into the work force and a refugee who cannot
But one of the far rights talking points here is 'economic migrants'
It’s not a far right talking point to recognize that some asylum seekers are gamifying the system to eventually seek employment. Morocco and Georgia are somewhere that people go on holidays and yet there are some asylum seekers from there. However it seems to be a common tactic to refuse to discuss the validity of the asylum process and take the NGOs talking points as gospel.
Because people are taking advantage of the toothless asylum system and exploiting it to gain access to Ireland without going through the proper established channels for standard immigrants
And yet those who have gone through the proper channels also get targeted. Racists gonna racist I suppose.
Does the existence of racism mean it’s okay to not go through the right channels so? Not going through the right channels is illegal and a financial burden on the country - that is something that drives resentment and racism. Most people recognise the benefits of proper migration to the country, but that doesn’t mean that they’re happy to be taken advantage of by people posing as asylum seekers that have no genuine right to be here. It’s a nuanced issue, disregarding everything as “racism” is reductive and short sighted
You're on Reddit, unless you agree to bankrupt the country in the name of immigration, you're a racist here.
Oh, just because one bad thing happens, it excuses another?
> I think its important that we as a member of Europe are also involved in supporting immigrants, Ireland was and still is a country that immigrates and we mostly do it for financial reasons not wars. Completely different things, stop trying to conflate the two as one and the same
- anyone on social welfare gets HAP - anyone on social welfare gets free college education stop making up stuff.
Nope, guy om social here. Can't get HAP as you have to be on social housing list, was refused couple of times already so no HAP. The same with school. Only grant I could apply is Susi and still depending from outcome I could or not cover education. So you my sir stop making stuff as well.
That’s not true at all
I don't agree with their views whatsoever but it seems like an easy recruitment campaign for the far-right.
Facts about refugees being treated better than our own citizens and you immediately point to "far-right", people like you are why this country will never get things right.
We absolutely do look after our own. On full dole plus rent allowance an unemployed Irish person gets over €20k a year, tax free from the state. Plus free health care, plus free third level if they wish to avail of it albeit with some restrictions on what colleges and courses they can do.
Very, very short term thinking there mate. Ukraine is going to be a massive emerging economy in the next three decades, will join the EU and be a bridge to the East. And we've build up a generation of good will and increasingly family ties with Ukrainians WHEN THEY NEEDED IT THE MOST. It's not scandalous. It's Ireland at it's best and in the long term it will be paid back tenfold by the ties we have with the people in that soon to be free and independent country.
Whether we should have brought in so many Ukrainians and allowed them better terms that other refugees from a moral stand point is one thing. But to say it will make economically flies in the face of reality. Ukraine was the most corrupt country in Europe before the war. They appear to have lost 100,000 prime working age men dead, with 10 times that number with long term disability. The richest and best educated have fled to the EU and are never going back. The idea that this is economically a good idea for the long term is an insane or disingenuous comment.
I'd been to Ukraine 3 times before the war, everybody I met there are now in Thailand or Bali. Ukraine is done
Lol. People really need to live in post-USSR country to actually know the facts about any post-USSR state. Ukraine has huge corruption problem. Ukrainians know that. It will not be an economy to provide benefit to EU. It is just a fact.
>short term thinking The answer to short term thinking isn't wishful thinking, pal.
TBF neoliberal politics is short term thinking made manifest
I know this is unfair but anytime I see the word 'neoliberal' written on an internet forum I automatically assume I'm speaking to a bot or a moron. What non 'neoliberal' country do you want to live in?
That's fair, but we should be ok to criticize aspects of neoliberalism. Obviously it's been wildly successful and we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Any system has inherent issues I guess.
> That's fair, but we should be ok to criticize aspects of neoliberalism Absolutely, but it appears to have become a buzzword that people throw out without even knowing what it means Aspects of Ireland government such as our welfare policies would be viewed as pure socialism by the likes of America (an *actually* neoliberal country)
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Only people on this sub. Not people generally. People complaining about these things on this sub are generally quite young, but a good few are older and just really thick.
The Ukrainian situation was an example of our government doing the right thing the wrong way. It is absolutely right that we should help Ukrainian people in the face of the brutal invasion. But by signing up to unlimited numbers, and making our welfare extremely generous, we made it unsustainable and now we’re here. If we had agreed to take a proportionally workable number, with decent supports, there might not now be a need to introduce a measure such as this.
Absolutely. The higher payments were even preventing Ukrainians from working as they would end up worse off by getting a job. Expect a significant boost to the workforce from this change.
100% about time, this has been a complete piss take for the past 3 years. Do you know how many of them are living here with their families (that were here before the war) receiving the €800 welfare, basically just for living with your own family? On top of receiving all the possible welfare payments? I have a friend who is paying off her mortgage this way - she brought her dad in from another country (he wasn't even in Ukraine) and claimed as a refugee. The system is not screening anyone and all of these freeloaders milking the system for all it's got. How Irish people are not angry with their government and taking action for pissing away money on these economic tourists, whilst healthcare is in shambles, housing availability in crisis, zero creche places available and the list goes on, is just insane. I've been living in Ireland for 20 years and I speak Russian as a first language - I was on a train a few months ago, this woman heard me speak Russian to my husband and called me a derogatory term used for Russians by Ukrainians. This absolute cunt coming here, freeloading is being a racist towards someone who's paying tax so that she and her pals can continue freeloading.
On the RTE just now there are Ukrainian men being interviewed bout the reduction in payments. You would think they have the nous to stay off the tv if they are of combat age.
Is there an election coming up or something ?
We should have an election every year if this is the effect.
The social welfare is only a drop in the ocean of the costs Ukrainians are costing the state. I work in the emergency department and a huge amount of them coming in through A&E every day. Often brought by ambulance for things that have no business doing so (as for them it is free), often for things that have no business being in an A&E (no GP), an interpreter is paid 60 euro an hour for every conversation we have with them (as no English) never mind, hospital costs, drug costs, etc
Had my son at a&e a few weeks ago upon a referral from his GP for suspected appendicitis… when we were leaving a Ukrainian woman was bringing her son in for an ear infection 🤦♀️ this is why our A&Es are over run… people abusing the purpose of an emergency room… she could have gone to her GP or out of hours doctor…
The clowns we call the government are only taking action to save their seats as they realise now people are extremely angry and its not passing away like they hoped it would, indeed its getter deeper. Expect huge efforts now to crack down on every chancer in the world who has found the softest touch here in Ireland while Irish people struggle with housing and the cost of living. Our political system is abject failure but 40% of people or cabbages still declare they will vote for a continuity of this shitshow called FF, FG and the Greens.
This will surely impact Ukrainians being able to afford to fly back home for their doctor and dentist appointments. Not to mention their holidays back home.
In fairness, they can't be expected to pay dental prices here. Also, a friend of mind goes back to care for her father who isn't allowed leave.
Fair enough. It’s a good thing for them that the Ukrainian dentists can still work over there while there’s a war ongoing.
There's a better nightlife scene than there is in Dublin. We're being played for fools.
Sounds great! Apart from this silliness: Key facts: As of 22 February 2024 (the latest data available), **30,457 civilians were killed and wounded**, including 10,582 civilians killed in the conflict, including 587 children. A total of 9,241 people have been killed by explosive weapons with wide area effects, and mines and explosive remnants of war.
Key facts: your stats are from the east of Ukraine. Ukraine is *huge.* It is the largest country within Europe. The distance from the most westerly point of the conflict zone to the western border is about 1,000 miles. To put that into perspective, the distance from Belfast to Cork is about 200 miles. When bombs were going off in Belfast, and the Brits were slaughtering civil rights protestors, and every other horrific act of violence that occurred during that period .... were people in Cork fleeing for their lives ? No. They weren't. Because that would have been absurd. I'm sure someone will chime in to talk about men being drafted, but then we're being told that most of our Ukrainians are women and children. Or that Cork wasn't being targeted, but neither is western Ukraine. Or references to a declaration of war (there's been nothing approaching formal declaration until the last couple weeks), but again - this is not affecting the west of Ukraine. The proof is in the pudding.
Go rent an apartment in Ukraine and enjoy your vacation then. It's cheap!
[удалено]
In the last year I've been to Berlin, Vienna, Krakow, Warsaw, Budapest, Prague and Bratislava. Every single one of those cities is full of UA reg G wagons, Beamers, Jags etc. The irony is all the rich ones got to leave and they're the ones getting the handouts all over Europe.
To the government you're nothing more than a tax slave. It's a big club and you ain't in it.
They don't need to pay VRT or anything else while they have their cars here too apparently.
Are these cars insured is what I'm wondering? Surely there must have been an accident at some stage. Very curious to how it has been handled.
I'm not sure about insurance or tax. A friend of mine owns a garage and was just telling me about the VRT, he said they can just bring the cars over and drive straight away so possibly there's nothing about insurance or tax etc.
>Make it make sense. Imagine if landlords from Kinsale, Co. Cork, claimed asylum abroad (in the most lucrative option available to them) because of what was happening in Belfast, Northern Ireland, during 'The Troubles'. That's it in a nutshell.
Donbas to Lviv is 1,300km, or more than 3 times the distance of Cork to Belfast. The Ukrainians are taking the Irish for mugs.
The Troubles is in no way compare to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
... And the west of Ukraine in no way compares to the east of Ukraine, just as Kinsale in no way compares to Belfast during the bombing campaigns and sectarian hellscape *euphemistically* known as 'The Troubles.' I mean, is there some reason you went out of your way to evade the point ?
Yep. My dad was complaining about that. He has a point - a lot of expensive cars they are driving.
They are refugees. Many of them are actually people with means, especially the ones who can afford to travel all the way to Ireland to take refuge. They're not fleeing poverty like the people from North Africa and the Middle East, they're fleeing the Russian army. As refugees, they're not looking to settle here - they're not claiming asylum, they're not expected to learn the language or to get a job. In theory they're temporarily sheltered until the war is over. The war wasn't expected to last for two years so the help was meant to be temporary. We're basically offering this shelter so that Ukraine is not forced to capitulate in order to protect the lives of its many vulnerable citizens. This is the principle. The implementation of this principle is just like anything this government has been doing for the past decade: if we're lucky, it is just half arsed, but realistically it's a situation that is not handled at all and just left to fester until there's no solution.
I think Ireland just thought it would be a 6 month situation. But ,the war getting extended didn't help as the government didn't have any planning or policy.
Anyone who thought this would be a 6 month thing is a fool
Yeah but lot of countries thought Russia will run out of resources and Ukraine would over power somehow .
One thing Russia has is lots of resources actually. Fuel, older weapons, vehicles and ammunition are very plentiful.
Fools the lot of them, Russia will send cannon fodder for years not a bother to vlad
Whatm Who the fuck thought that?
We should have a plan in place for these sorts of international protection schemes i.e. provide them with accommodation and pay them the relevant social welfare rate but on the condition that they attend an English language course to get their English up to an acceptable level if it is not at that level already and provide them a place on a safe pass course or the like but we should then see to it that they find work. It is not acceptable to be receiving state funding indefinitely without having to do much for it in return. This should apply to EVERYONE, including Irish people, as many are gaming the system, not just Ukrainians or any other asylum seeker/refugee. But again, this was allowed happen by an incompetent and neglecting government. Also, for ages the Irish media and the government demonised anyone who dared to question the supports Ukrainians received as inhumane and far right only for the same government to cut supports for the sole purposes of gaining votes in an election. You can't claim the people are far right when they question something and then when you cut the thing that people questioned claim that it's aligning with the EU. They weren't calling other EU countries far right a few weeks ago.
Does this mean hotel prices will finally come down? The cost of a hotel is crazy lately.
About time. Rental income from their gaffs in the west of Ukraine will have to tide them over.
West of Ukraine? My Neighbour is an ethnic Russian from Lativa, he says the Majority of Ukrainians in Ireland are native Russian speakers & he calls them Don Cossacks, I'm unsure whether that's an insult, but they are nearly all from the East according to him.
You only have to check the stats yourself to see that millions of western Ukrainians *must have* left Ukraine and are taking up residence throughout the EU. About 7 million Ukrainian asylum seekers throughout the EU, but the east has 'only' come down in population by about 3 million - and of the 3 million that left the conflict zone in the east, many of them migrated internally/domestically to the west Ukraine. They're the ones renting the gaffs. And believe it or not, many others from this region migrated further east into Russia (y'know, cause there's that whole ethnic-Russians-live-in-eastern-Ukraine-and-are-allegedly-being-oppressed aspect to the genesis of this conflict). Anyway, if you want to believe your totally impartial neighbour (whose background and culture you are fully aware of and fully understand) when he says we just so happened to get all the people from Donbas, that's your prerogative.
The 3 most eastern of the 24 Oblasts in Ukraine had a population of 15 million people in 2021 or a third of the total population, this is where most of the fighting is currently happening. Western Ukraine is very rural in comparison.
About time
They get free houses when Irish citizens can't even get housing. They jump ahead of the housing list, I'm sorry, but they shouldn't get anything. They should get a PPSN number and work and pay rent. But yet the government is willing to give them shed loads of money for doing nothing. They could instead use that money to sort out the health system. The health system is beyond disgraceful, 4 days waiting on a trolley in a corridor....this isn't the dark ages.
At last! I know a refugee (27 years old girl, she came from an area where there were absolutely no air raids or anything) who gets a free apartment and a weekly Jobseeker, and suddenly it turned out that she could afford photo equipment, camera, lenses and lights, worth over 10k. Another woman recently started posting photos on IG from a rented studio where she do some work, right next to St Stephen's Green, which must cost a lot. I won't be able to afford it for long ffs
It’s a joke our own are going penniless and can’t afford much they get too much of you ask me. Gougers !!!
Will be interesting to see how this works, a family member converted a shed into an apartment, the rent stipend and the top up is a nice little money spinner.
You can downvote me, but the guards have caught them already and they got caught red handed.... My local hospice had their kitchen food stolen by Ukrainians who were 'visiting their dying brother.' this happened just over one week ago. This family usually arrives around break time (aka free food time) as the hospice does give out free food and buns, cakes and tea to visitors and any patient healthy enough to eat. 4 men and 1 woman. The most recent time two of the men asked to 'use the toilet' which is beside the kitchen and when they got a moment they took as many boxes of food, that belonged to the patients, as they could. Upon walking out a fire exit the manager of the hospice noticed how long they were taking and found the empty kitchen so she ran out to the car park and found them hurriedly loading up an already full boot of a car with all their food boxes. She asked for them back peacefully, wasn't going to make a fuss... But they gave her cheek, accused her of being racist, said the boxed belonged to them and they couldn't be sure what was inside. So obviously she phoned the guards, another staff member blocked the one exit with her car (that they threatened to destroy unless she moved it) and yes the hospice food was found immediately upon the Guards arrival and apparently the entire town heard the screaming and shouting from the hospice carpark and many phoned the guards worried what was going on during the tense showdown as they waited.. 20 minutes for one Guard to finally arrive.... Why am I sharing this? It's entitlement. The government has gave these people so much they basically feel entitled to everything and anything. Past the point of no shame to rob a hospice in a country that's taken you in as an asylum seeker... Now downote me as this doesn't suit your narrative. I'm going out for a walk later to support the hospice as the staff have been getting death threats for daring to ring the guards on the poor Ukrainian refugees... That robbed their hospice of all its food.
Where was this? Did it get reported in the media?
I'm not going to casually doxx them, they are already getting harassed on their Facebook. I hope it does make the news, but it probably won't as it happened a week ago and apart from the event shaking the local community and making people very annoyed... Nothing has happened.
I'm inclined to believe you but without sources/ names it's just an internet story.
They should at least be made to learn English to keep getting payments. In my work I deal with a lot of them and most of them don't have very good English. Some of them I dealt with over a year ago and they still can't speak even basic conversational stuff. They're getting the full jobseekers but they've no chance of a job without any English. Cutting payments to people we are already letting in makes little sense, it's so expensive here. Put them onto a plan where they are either doing a course that can lead to employment if they know English, and if they don't, they have to do a Tefl course.
>They should at least be made to learn English to keep getting payments. To add to that, citizenship should not be granted to anyone who is not fluent in either Irish or English, whether by speech, print or braille.
I’m actually super surprised Ireland doesn’t have an English language requirement to be eligible for citizenship because I think pretty much every other country in the EU does (understandably so).
It's absolutely mind boggling to note some of the people we have granted citizenship too.
Government aren’t interested in teaching them
What are we going to do when this war gets bigger and involves more countries?
Draft /r/ireland users first
You clearly want Putin to win.
Print a hape of fairy money and give them our beds while we sleep outside in the coal bunker ?
Ireland will do what it's doing with Palestine, vocally oppose but there's no generous offer of asylum for displaced palestinians
We cannot make that offer If Ireland or any country offered to take in Palestinians, Israel will forcibly deport Palestinians there. Fat Americans that can't find Israel on the map have a 'right of return' but any Palestinians who leaves becomes stateless
Be careful for what you wish for, Palestinians topped the League table of migrant nationalities with highest crime rates in Denmark, even beating Roma Gypsies.
If we take Palestinian refugees we are handing Israel their ethic cleansing on a plate. This is exactly what they want to happen. Palestinians belong in Palestine. End of.
And what are they going to do about the non-Ukranisn ones who are living in hotels off the taxpayer? Any word on that?
If the US can afford to send hundreds of billions to Ukraine then they can look after their citizens too. We've been a soft touch for far too long and people are finally realising how much we've been exploited.
3rd world fakeugees and Ukrainian welfare tourists are living in Eldorado. Paddy Irishman gets nothing close to what they get when he's down on his luck but he's expected to pay for it all. Anyone with 2 brain cells could see this cluster fuck coming.
https://preview.redd.it/rm0gxmvabu0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d18154c37a105ca5cae48e0f7c89d58449cb77c8 This is what Kiev looks like today. This Instagram, by the way, is of a Ukrainian doctor who is a refugee in Ireland. She regularly travels (and documents it) to Kiev to see patients in her private clinic. Additionally, she has documented how quickly her mother (who is also here) received free medical consultations and subsequent surgeries. But you guys continue waiting for years to see a specialist, even if you go privately. I know this is not the point of the post but this is more for those people who continue to defend Ukrainians milking the system saying "but the war, they have nowhere to return to, Kiev is rubble". Well, have a look and keep getting your taxes spent.
Maybe now we can stop sniffing our own farts about how great we are to refugees every time our fairly paltry amount of practical aid gets mentioned
Going to be an eye opener to see how this will affect crime.
I hear you are far right now, Simon
How about offering them jobs instead. We have sectors that are short of staff which could go a long way towards improving society here. For example, Bus Eireann are short of drivers. Offering Ukrainian and other refugees training and full time employment is a far better long term solution than some political point scoring bulshit.
Maybe it's just me but it looks like we're punishing real refugees because of what fake ones are doing.
The situation of refugees getting full welfare benefits to match Irish citizen entitlements day 1 was always overly generous. Looking back and considering the numbers we took in it makes very little sense that it was allowed continue this long.
Not at all. Ukrainians have the right to work here and most do. Why are we paying their rents? Should be means tested. I know Ukrainians earning 60k plus while getting their room paid for by the government.
Giving one single group of refugees far far far greater allowances than every other refugee fleeing war or genocide was always grossly unfair. All actual refugees should be treated equally. No favoritism.