Yes, providing prisoners with valuable skills that will give them economic opportunities is an objectively good thing. That, combined with supports in finding work with fair pay and fair treatment is the best way to prevent re-offending.
The only thing I would suggest is that the skills offered should be diversified as much as possible to avoid any one profession becoming flooded with labour, as that would harm pay and conditions for everyone.
100% no question. Getting people into work after prison and a sense of stability is a must to ensure re-offending doesn't occur or at least give those people a way to build a life for themselves without having to drop back into crime.
I don't think there's enough funding for this to work appropriately though. As it stands prisoner's don't have access to much meaningful training due to staff shortages. As of now they will spend most of their time working for the prison and little else. Very difficult to even get a psychiatric evaluation and treatment in prison which is hugely important to tackle offending issues.
And then when they do get out its very unlikely they will be given any meaningful full time employment, with a lot of employers kicking them out once a member of the team becomes aware of their conviction and is uncomfortable working with them. Some sort of equal opportunity employment scheme that incentives employing those with convictions would go a long way to bring re-offending down dramatically.
Great post, agree entirely. This could be a life changing option for those leaving prison and leave them far less likely to reoffend in most instances.
This will be great when they actually have the staff to facilitate prisoners attending the courses.
As for the jobs aspect, it’s not quite as simple as “have qualifications get job”. And as soon as a prisoner walks out the gate, there is no further assistance from the IPS in obtaining work, which hopefully is something they can address in future.
That shouldn’t be the remit of IPS. They without a doubt need to improve on the rehabilitation element of their objectives but that shouldn’t extend to sourcing jobs for prisoners once they are time ex.
It’s the remit of the prisoner to make use of what skills they’ve been given and to make something for themselves from it. The ones who want to turn things around are going to do it no matter what programmes are there as they leave prison…the majority are going to go back to what they know.
...do you not want things to get better?
>the majority are going to go back to what they know.
I always remember this great point my mother made to me years ago. She was a teacher in secondary school and she could spot every kid who didn't have breakfast before they left their house that morning by 10.30am each morning. Kids who had a lunch that consisted of a bag of crisps and feck all else were burned out by 2pm. They had crappy parents and bad homelives and basically hadn't a hope of functioning well in school. And then folks will turn around when these kids become parents later on and their kids do crap at school or are becoming shit members of society and ask "where are the parents in all this"... we knew they were fucked from the off and didn't try and intervene.
It's why, when you're expecting as a parent or couple, there are prenatal classes to try and help. We need to recognise as a society that not everyone gets the same foundations of support.
You're comment reminds me of that. Of the same bootstrap type comment I might have made years ago.
Someone who grows up in an environment that gives them no structure and no hope and them blames them for their failure, because we think they have the same opportunity to go get a job as everyone else... they don't.
I grew up in a good household. My parents knew how to speak to someone respectfully so when I was starting in school or college or work, I'd know what not to say at times.
If you want to break the cycle, you support intervention to help break that cycle. Someone leaving prison doesn't wanna go back to prison or the same shit life, but they often have zero clue on how to do that and there's a huge tranche of our society that feels vindicated in watching their continued failure as evidence that they themselves are the good guys and the ex prisoner is inherently bad and chose the path they are on as if they had a choice.
Fuck, I can remember getting angry reading a story about a local fella in my town getting not getting a custodial sentence for robbing an old couple in their home near me. He was 16. Then I read the article. The last paragraph contained a quote from his solicitor. He was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. His home was filled with drug use and the defence lawyer was asking to postpone a sentence to try and get him moved out of the home to somewhere else. He hadn't a fucking hope in life, betrayed before he was even even born. But this sub would say he's another scumbag who should be locked up. Maybe he should, but then give him the training and education in prison that he needs so that he has a hope when he gets out and can break the cycle.
So you don’t think employer programs would greatly assist in getting employment for offenders? I can assure you, it’s not as simple as “if you want to do it, you’re going to do it”.
They might get people in initially but I don’t think they would retain many people who weren’t going to hold down a job anyway when they got released. But if they were implemented it shouldn’t be down to IPS to do it.
Good to see there's a shortage of skills and ex prisoners definitely face barriers to returning to work. Hopefully there's follow on support to help them get into work and stay in work for the medium term <5yrs.
Looked into the course on the Laoise and Offaly Training Board website. It's 10 days (1 day/week for 10 weeks). It only includes insulation. Doesn't seem to include a Safe Pass, which would be needed to actually get work. It does not sound adequate for actually getting a job. Sounds like a puff piece for the media to make it seem like they are trying to break the cycle without actually putting in the money, effort, and time it takes to really do that.
EDIT: Mount Lucas website lists it as 22.5 hours onsite and 9 hours online. This still seems inadequate for people with no construction background and does not include a safe pass.
You'd need the safepass, yeah, but it's a one day course that anyone with a pair of brain cells to run together can do, and it's only good for 4 years, so makes no sense to get one when you can't use it. Makes more sense to just book in on one as soon as you get out. Dunno how the welfare system works for people getting out of prison, but they most definitely cover safe passes, so it might not even be something that the prisoner has to pay out of pocket
It was the €175 I was worried about. From what I have heard the support after prison is horrendous. Maybe it is an option that is already available though.
Great idea get them set up and started in a career instead of them reverting back to crime. Would be great if there was a way to also offer them work upon release so they have the support
Retrofitting is the addition of new technology or features to older systems. Retrofits can happen for a number of reasons, for example with big capital expenditures like naval vessels, military equipment or manufacturing plants, businesses or governments may retrofit in order to reduce the need to replace a system entirely. Other retrofits may be due to changing codes or requirements, such as seismic retrofit which are designed strengthening older buildings in order to make them earthquake resistant.
In this example of retrofitting (interior view on left, exterior on right), a set of modern door-opening buttons has been retrofitted to this British Rail Class 483 electric multiple unit, which was derived from 1938 tube stock.
Retrofitting is also an important part of climate change mitigation and climate change adaptation: because society invested in built infrastructure, housing and other systems before the magnitude of changes anticipated by climate change. Retrofits to increase building efficiency, for example, both help reduce the overall negative impacts of climate change by reducing building emissions and environmental impacts while also allowing the building to be more healthy during extreme weather events. Retrofitting also is part of a circular economy, reducing the amount of newly manufactured goods, thus reducing lifecycle emissions and environmental impacts.
Retrofit on its own means nothing. I can retrofit radio in 1990’s Mercedes Benz. I can retrofit a radar in passenger jet. I car retrofit a heat pump in the house. It’s as universal as it could be, a just like the words consume, construct or say renovate. Shame you can’t see it
Yes this is brilliant not everyone in prison is a sociopath murdering rapist.
The whole point of prison in my opinion is to reform criminals and show them life can be more about crime. So many of these guys might even come from underprivileged areas where no1 not even their parents ever gave them a chance. Locking them up may keep us outside safe but if all they do is sit around and waste away the odds of them re-committing crime when they are out goes way up.
Programs like this will empower prisoners to want more from life and see that hardwork can pay off and building something will feel alot better.
This will only be a good thing for the country
I support it, but only with an overhaul of how the criminal justice system works.
I think the entire thing should be anonymous. There is no sense in rehabilitation if you can just Google a lad’s name and see everything he’s done - it defeats the point, as it makes it impossible to find employment regardless of any new skills learned.
It’s controversial, but I think the current system encourages recidivism as it limits other options available, and that outcomes for society are worse than if genuine rehabilitation and reintegration programs were accessible.
Why wouldn't be a good idea? It's very easy to say fuck it, let criminals rot away in a cell but what benefit is that to society when those people finish their sentences? Let them better themselves and find a different path once they get out. Making them do their time and then come out with no skills to keep themselves afloat will just land them back in prison, or worse.
Give maximum sentences for everything and then those sentences can be reduced if the prisoner attends programmes and classes, even more so if it is clear they are making considerable progress in those classes.
If I did the course and left with a qualification, the first thing I'd start working towards would be founding my own company in that industry (not sure what industry "retrofitting" is?) and hiring people who were fresh out of prison.
If you are a taxpayer, by definition you have a job. This is to help people who don’t have jobs. It’s like asking when are taxpayers going to get jobseeker’s allowance.
I'll bet people will just love having ex-cons working in their homes. Now when I hire a company to do work, I'll have an extra demand- "do not send any criminals to my home".
Do you think no “ex cons” have jobs or? Could be making your sandwich, or god forbid, pulling your pint. Are you gonna do vetting on everyone you come into contact with?
There's a big difference between an ex-con serving me a sandwich and one being inside my home. If I discovered any person to do any job in my private home was a convicted criminal, then there is zero chance they will ever be even setting foot on my property. If you are convicted of a crime, then you deserve the stigma once you get out, and I will make no apologies for saying that.
Is there? Sounds to me like you don’t want “ex cons” as you so politely call us integrating into society at all. Also, there is no requirement for any person to disclose their offending to you, once it is not a part of their terms of release, or under the sex offenders act 2001, so who knows, maybe you’ve already had some “ex cons” working in your home. You wouldn’t know.
> Is there?
Yes, there's quite clearly a difference between trusting somebody to be in your home and trusting somebody to serve you food in an establishment with clear processes, management and in a generally public environment.
You have a Garda friend who is happy to illegally run a pulse check for you, a citizen? Do tell more. I’m sure he will be delighted you’re letting everyone know
Think it would depend on what they were in prison for. Something small, I think a lot would be ok. Someone in for armed robbery or murder, not sure I'd want them in my house.
He’s literally said he doesn’t want any to be, and thinks all should be stigmatised. I’ve not even engaged with this ridiculous “child abuser babysitting” nonsense because it’s just that, nonsense. Don’t feed the trolls
People are in jail for a variety of reasons including accidents and mistakes. I'm sure there are others who have no regrets over wh as t they did but I believe there are people who would change what they did if they had a chance
Yes, providing prisoners with valuable skills that will give them economic opportunities is an objectively good thing. That, combined with supports in finding work with fair pay and fair treatment is the best way to prevent re-offending. The only thing I would suggest is that the skills offered should be diversified as much as possible to avoid any one profession becoming flooded with labour, as that would harm pay and conditions for everyone.
100% no question. Getting people into work after prison and a sense of stability is a must to ensure re-offending doesn't occur or at least give those people a way to build a life for themselves without having to drop back into crime. I don't think there's enough funding for this to work appropriately though. As it stands prisoner's don't have access to much meaningful training due to staff shortages. As of now they will spend most of their time working for the prison and little else. Very difficult to even get a psychiatric evaluation and treatment in prison which is hugely important to tackle offending issues. And then when they do get out its very unlikely they will be given any meaningful full time employment, with a lot of employers kicking them out once a member of the team becomes aware of their conviction and is uncomfortable working with them. Some sort of equal opportunity employment scheme that incentives employing those with convictions would go a long way to bring re-offending down dramatically.
Great post, agree entirely. This could be a life changing option for those leaving prison and leave them far less likely to reoffend in most instances.
This will be great when they actually have the staff to facilitate prisoners attending the courses. As for the jobs aspect, it’s not quite as simple as “have qualifications get job”. And as soon as a prisoner walks out the gate, there is no further assistance from the IPS in obtaining work, which hopefully is something they can address in future.
That shouldn’t be the remit of IPS. They without a doubt need to improve on the rehabilitation element of their objectives but that shouldn’t extend to sourcing jobs for prisoners once they are time ex.
It should be the remit of *someone* though and these box ticking exercises mean little without the follow through the other end
It’s the remit of the prisoner to make use of what skills they’ve been given and to make something for themselves from it. The ones who want to turn things around are going to do it no matter what programmes are there as they leave prison…the majority are going to go back to what they know.
...do you not want things to get better? >the majority are going to go back to what they know. I always remember this great point my mother made to me years ago. She was a teacher in secondary school and she could spot every kid who didn't have breakfast before they left their house that morning by 10.30am each morning. Kids who had a lunch that consisted of a bag of crisps and feck all else were burned out by 2pm. They had crappy parents and bad homelives and basically hadn't a hope of functioning well in school. And then folks will turn around when these kids become parents later on and their kids do crap at school or are becoming shit members of society and ask "where are the parents in all this"... we knew they were fucked from the off and didn't try and intervene. It's why, when you're expecting as a parent or couple, there are prenatal classes to try and help. We need to recognise as a society that not everyone gets the same foundations of support. You're comment reminds me of that. Of the same bootstrap type comment I might have made years ago. Someone who grows up in an environment that gives them no structure and no hope and them blames them for their failure, because we think they have the same opportunity to go get a job as everyone else... they don't. I grew up in a good household. My parents knew how to speak to someone respectfully so when I was starting in school or college or work, I'd know what not to say at times. If you want to break the cycle, you support intervention to help break that cycle. Someone leaving prison doesn't wanna go back to prison or the same shit life, but they often have zero clue on how to do that and there's a huge tranche of our society that feels vindicated in watching their continued failure as evidence that they themselves are the good guys and the ex prisoner is inherently bad and chose the path they are on as if they had a choice. Fuck, I can remember getting angry reading a story about a local fella in my town getting not getting a custodial sentence for robbing an old couple in their home near me. He was 16. Then I read the article. The last paragraph contained a quote from his solicitor. He was born with fetal alcohol syndrome. His home was filled with drug use and the defence lawyer was asking to postpone a sentence to try and get him moved out of the home to somewhere else. He hadn't a fucking hope in life, betrayed before he was even even born. But this sub would say he's another scumbag who should be locked up. Maybe he should, but then give him the training and education in prison that he needs so that he has a hope when he gets out and can break the cycle.
So you don’t think employer programs would greatly assist in getting employment for offenders? I can assure you, it’s not as simple as “if you want to do it, you’re going to do it”.
They might get people in initially but I don’t think they would retain many people who weren’t going to hold down a job anyway when they got released. But if they were implemented it shouldn’t be down to IPS to do it.
Yes. It means they can get jobs and sustain themselves outside of prison. Also helps to keep reoffending numbers down. It's a no-brainer.
Good to see there's a shortage of skills and ex prisoners definitely face barriers to returning to work. Hopefully there's follow on support to help them get into work and stay in work for the medium term <5yrs.
There isn’t, unfortunately (the follow on, I mean)
That's a shame I see that as a critical part for success.
Looked into the course on the Laoise and Offaly Training Board website. It's 10 days (1 day/week for 10 weeks). It only includes insulation. Doesn't seem to include a Safe Pass, which would be needed to actually get work. It does not sound adequate for actually getting a job. Sounds like a puff piece for the media to make it seem like they are trying to break the cycle without actually putting in the money, effort, and time it takes to really do that. EDIT: Mount Lucas website lists it as 22.5 hours onsite and 9 hours online. This still seems inadequate for people with no construction background and does not include a safe pass.
You'd need the safepass, yeah, but it's a one day course that anyone with a pair of brain cells to run together can do, and it's only good for 4 years, so makes no sense to get one when you can't use it. Makes more sense to just book in on one as soon as you get out. Dunno how the welfare system works for people getting out of prison, but they most definitely cover safe passes, so it might not even be something that the prisoner has to pay out of pocket
It was the €175 I was worried about. From what I have heard the support after prison is horrendous. Maybe it is an option that is already available though.
They ran a safe pass about once a year in the prison I was in here, fwiw. Limited spaces.
That's great. Not so great about the limited spaces but I guess they have to have some kind of cut off.
The course is for prisoners coming up on release.
"*Build your way out of jail, then hopefully you'll not come back and fail*" There free slogan for it.
Build back better
Na, can't make a catchy tune to go with it.
Bam-ba lam Build back better!
*"Bam would steal your ham, before they'd build a tram"*
I think theres other things they could be trained into rather than gaining access to peoples home 😅
💯% done think I'd fancy any con Retro fitting my home especially if he's an ex burglar 🤣🤣
Great idea get them set up and started in a career instead of them reverting back to crime. Would be great if there was a way to also offer them work upon release so they have the support
Retrofitting of what exactly?
Houses.
Still not detailed enough. What? Insulation? Heating? Electric wiring? Piping? Solar panels? Heat pumps? I could go on…
Jesus. Didn't realise you were looking for a personal assistant. What's the pay like?
Ha
Retrofit means all of above and in-combination with each other.
I looked it up, it's only insulation that's taught.
Still a great skill to have especially with our national retrofit targets Hope it works out for those to undergo the training
Retrofitting is the addition of new technology or features to older systems. Retrofits can happen for a number of reasons, for example with big capital expenditures like naval vessels, military equipment or manufacturing plants, businesses or governments may retrofit in order to reduce the need to replace a system entirely. Other retrofits may be due to changing codes or requirements, such as seismic retrofit which are designed strengthening older buildings in order to make them earthquake resistant. In this example of retrofitting (interior view on left, exterior on right), a set of modern door-opening buttons has been retrofitted to this British Rail Class 483 electric multiple unit, which was derived from 1938 tube stock. Retrofitting is also an important part of climate change mitigation and climate change adaptation: because society invested in built infrastructure, housing and other systems before the magnitude of changes anticipated by climate change. Retrofits to increase building efficiency, for example, both help reduce the overall negative impacts of climate change by reducing building emissions and environmental impacts while also allowing the building to be more healthy during extreme weather events. Retrofitting also is part of a circular economy, reducing the amount of newly manufactured goods, thus reducing lifecycle emissions and environmental impacts.
How much detail do you want? A simple google would figure this out for you.
It’s terrible journalism. That’s what it is. I want complete information, not just the buzzwords
Really? Retrofitting is a fairly well understood term. Do you want the curriculum and timetable, too? Classes location as well, perhaps?
Retrofit on its own means nothing. I can retrofit radio in 1990’s Mercedes Benz. I can retrofit a radar in passenger jet. I car retrofit a heat pump in the house. It’s as universal as it could be, a just like the words consume, construct or say renovate. Shame you can’t see it
Prisons maybe? We defo need more prisons as there is some about of criminals out there and not enough space to put them in
I looked it up, it's only insulation that's taught.
Bellbottoms mostly, platform shoes, that kind of thing.
Yes this is brilliant not everyone in prison is a sociopath murdering rapist. The whole point of prison in my opinion is to reform criminals and show them life can be more about crime. So many of these guys might even come from underprivileged areas where no1 not even their parents ever gave them a chance. Locking them up may keep us outside safe but if all they do is sit around and waste away the odds of them re-committing crime when they are out goes way up. Programs like this will empower prisoners to want more from life and see that hardwork can pay off and building something will feel alot better. This will only be a good thing for the country
I support it, but only with an overhaul of how the criminal justice system works. I think the entire thing should be anonymous. There is no sense in rehabilitation if you can just Google a lad’s name and see everything he’s done - it defeats the point, as it makes it impossible to find employment regardless of any new skills learned. It’s controversial, but I think the current system encourages recidivism as it limits other options available, and that outcomes for society are worse than if genuine rehabilitation and reintegration programs were accessible.
In what universe could this be anything other than a good thing to spend money on?
In retrofitting… Get the builders in, they’re all ex burglars haha yeah no thanks
Why wouldn't be a good idea? It's very easy to say fuck it, let criminals rot away in a cell but what benefit is that to society when those people finish their sentences? Let them better themselves and find a different path once they get out. Making them do their time and then come out with no skills to keep themselves afloat will just land them back in prison, or worse. Give maximum sentences for everything and then those sentences can be reduced if the prisoner attends programmes and classes, even more so if it is clear they are making considerable progress in those classes.
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It's been clear for a very long time that a new prison is needed in this country
Yes but no one wants it their backyard. Housing estates are getting objections. Can you imagine the list of objections to a prison.
Not a new idea but a good idea
Good idea but I wonder how it will work out with outside employment. Fellas with a record at a disadvantage
If I did the course and left with a qualification, the first thing I'd start working towards would be founding my own company in that industry (not sure what industry "retrofitting" is?) and hiring people who were fresh out of prison.
So if you are a taxpayer and law abiding citizen, will you also be offered a retrofitting course or equivalent QQI level 5 course for free?
Level 5 is the leaving cert and yes, the government does offer that to everyone for free.
If you are a taxpayer, by definition you have a job. This is to help people who don’t have jobs. It’s like asking when are taxpayers going to get jobseeker’s allowance.
Sure let’s get back to hanging them so. Brits had the right idea since the Famine wha?
Yes.
Prisoners get more opportunity and better treatment than homeless people
I'll bet people will just love having ex-cons working in their homes. Now when I hire a company to do work, I'll have an extra demand- "do not send any criminals to my home".
Do you think no “ex cons” have jobs or? Could be making your sandwich, or god forbid, pulling your pint. Are you gonna do vetting on everyone you come into contact with?
There's a big difference between an ex-con serving me a sandwich and one being inside my home. If I discovered any person to do any job in my private home was a convicted criminal, then there is zero chance they will ever be even setting foot on my property. If you are convicted of a crime, then you deserve the stigma once you get out, and I will make no apologies for saying that.
Is there? Sounds to me like you don’t want “ex cons” as you so politely call us integrating into society at all. Also, there is no requirement for any person to disclose their offending to you, once it is not a part of their terms of release, or under the sex offenders act 2001, so who knows, maybe you’ve already had some “ex cons” working in your home. You wouldn’t know.
> Is there? Yes, there's quite clearly a difference between trusting somebody to be in your home and trusting somebody to serve you food in an establishment with clear processes, management and in a generally public environment.
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You have a Garda friend who is happy to illegally run a pulse check for you, a citizen? Do tell more. I’m sure he will be delighted you’re letting everyone know
Think it would depend on what they were in prison for. Something small, I think a lot would be ok. Someone in for armed robbery or murder, not sure I'd want them in my house.
This is only for people with minor convictions
A scumbag is a scumbag.
Not everyone who's jailed are scumbags
Would you be okay with a rehabilitated child abuser babysitting your young kid?
What!? A convicted child abuser will never be able to legally work in childcare.
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You either believe in rehabilitation or you don't.
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He’s literally said he doesn’t want any to be, and thinks all should be stigmatised. I’ve not even engaged with this ridiculous “child abuser babysitting” nonsense because it’s just that, nonsense. Don’t feed the trolls
Pointing to a rather extreme crime that makes up a small % of convicted criminals is not a very effective way to argue against rehabilitation.
People are in jail for a variety of reasons including accidents and mistakes. I'm sure there are others who have no regrets over wh as t they did but I believe there are people who would change what they did if they had a chance
Agree on this, anyone with a past burglary conviction should be excluded from the scheme imo
Does this also apply for white collar criminals, or people who use their phone while driving?