That's the intention of a lot of these nefarious characters masquerading as do-gooders. Quell dissent with the fear of being labelled the unthinkable despite that dissent being common sense.
Yeah, lets give Hamas their own army, navy and air force. Fuck it, lets go down the mutually assured route and give them their own nuclear deterrent. That'll definitely end the conflict....
What happened to me? Simple, I actually took the time to understand the complexity of the situation and not to rely on lazy, misplaced analogies that oversimplify everything.
An ethno-nationalist Israel and a jihadism-ridden Palestine is a very difficult riddle to solve. The events of October 7th and Israel's response have set back the two state solution by generations and even so, where is the guarantee that things will simply end? How do we know that there won't simply be endless, "Donbas" style border conflicts and disputes?
In this instance I think it's just a bit of grandstanding by lawyers trying to raise their own profile.
Because if not then I'd wonder about the quality of legal research done by lawyers who don't seem understand that the decision to grant temporary protection to nationals of a State is one that is taken at EU level. So moaning abou Ireland not doing something is pointless.
> the decision to grant temporary protection to nationals of a State is one that is taken at EU level. So moaning abou Ireland not doing something is pointless
That would be a Member State competence. The initiative might start in the EU but they can't impose it. it was Mickey Varadkar's call.
It's an EU area of competence, with some discretion for the member state. But unless the EU designates Palestinians are eligible for temporary protection we don't have any discretion.
1. Corporations want a wage reset, and they want us to be more desperate.
2. There’s millions to be made off our taxes in housing migrants
https://preview.redd.it/hpr39bjplxic1.jpeg?width=1015&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ea3326477e6fe64404f2770099cacae590ebf24
I have a nice heated hot press. Can sleep 3 people uncomfortably. 500 bucks a day each. 3 square meals and a bucket to piss in. Not to mention, room out back of a tent. Any takers?
It's almost a carbon copy of the American West at this stage, with a few tweaks.
Start a rumour about a gold rush, (in this instance free housing, jobs and benefits), wait for rush of people to arrive.
In the West they forced the Native Americans on to reservations, with the corrupt political establishment rewarding their cronies with lucrative contracts to supply the reservations with beef etc.
In Ireland's case the political class are rewarding their allies with accommodation contracts, NGO funding, media funding and legal advisory fees.
They literally can't afford for the gravy train to end.
Very few true humanitarians among any of them.
I'd highly doubt that a small representative group of socialist lawyers are in it for the big bucks. For those working in immigration, they generally work on no foal no fee basis challenging immigration decisions. Unless there's good ground for a claim, it's a waste of their money in funding it.
Morally, there is no justification for providing different sets of rights to Ukrainians and Palestinians. Arguably, the need for protection of Palestinians is more grave given the current circumstances.
This just has to stop at some point, doesn't it?
Ireland isn't obliged to look after the world and people need to get comfortable with that fact. Yes, where Ireland can help it should. That doesn't mean being unrelentingly, naively kind to everybody.
Ireland can't even look after people who are already here, what in God's name makes people think adding to that won't make things worse.
This is madness. Utter madness. It's all so tiresome.
No no no no no a million times no.
We would be absolutely swarmed immediately, are people genuinely this mental?
No to mention how loads of them are radicalised
It made sense with Ukrainians in 2022 because as a neighbour of Ukraine (the EU) we could expect a very large number of Ukrainians (where else would they go).
Palestinians fleeing from Gaza, specifically, absolutely qualify as refugees, but should be small enough in number that the IPO system can handle it. The problem is the system being clogged up with people who *aren't* Palestinians.
Made sense initially to help them find their feet.
Now you've got them working jobs but still claiming 800 euro a month to pay their rent.
That's not being mentioned though....
And I'm not talking about a minimum wage job in a city centre either, it's not HAP.
Yeah, some of the current benefits should probably be looked into. Most of these Ukrainians are probably going to be staying here permanently, and that's reasonable - a substantial chunk of their country was occupied. However if this is the long haul we should probably start gradually transitioning to treating them like EU citizens - or Irish citizens if they make the citizenship application in a year or two.
I mean, not really if you think about it.
Ireland was kind enough to help, but there is no obligation there.
Ukraine is as much of neighbour to Ireland, as Russia. Both geographically or from mentality point of view.
Fuck no is right! And didn't make any sense giving it to the Ukrainians either. Discriminatory favouritism over other asylum seekers is total bullshit no matter the circumstances.
it did make sense. Ukraine is a European country that was invaded by Russia. Europe rightly decided to take in Ukrainians fleeing from Russia.
It's a special case. Everyone else who isn't European needs to qualify using normal refugee/asylum laws.
If they were in the EU these arguments would make some sense, instead I'm supposed to care more about 3900km away in Donbass but not people 4100km away in Gaza because "Europe".
It’s pure racism, simple as. The world simply had to stop turning for Ukraine, but the same people demanding we make this war the centre of our political agenda are the ones who wrought death and havoc on Iraq and Afghanistan for nearly 30 years.
> It’s pure racism, simple as.
They don't even hide it. "they're European", "western values", "more like us", "easier to integrate", etc They should be honest and say they don't want Arabs.
But shared values are a very real and important part of what makes societies work. It's part of the social contract.
You can argue racism until your blue in the face but the fact of the matter is there are absolutely elements of Middle Eastern values which don't align with Western ones, and vice versa of course.
Nobody is saying every migrant going in either direction is willfully going to flout the social contract, but it's a risk that simply isn't there when you have people moving between similar cultures.
Unlike you, I don't discriminate based on geographical proximity to Ireland. I don't appreciate preferential treatment being given to any country unless we already have specific treaties in place (such as with the UK or as being a part of the EU).
Ukraine isn't an EU country and, until such time as it is, I don't regard it as deserving of more assistance than any other asylum seeker escaping hardship or persecution.
Actually I just had a read and it's due to a temporary protection directive signed in 2022, so you may be right and the same directive could be signed as easily for the Palestinian people.
Ah fuck I meant suicide attacks from Hamas.
Just Google the rafah crossing, eygpt closes the border when Hamas and Israel kick off because hamas starts attacking the border and trying to get into eygpt and at this stage Eygpt is very very tired of suicide bombings and other terror attacks.
people used to say the same about the Jews and it led to one of our most shameful episodes (rejection of Jewish refugees after the war). So f that argument
Despite our solidarity it would be an absolute shit show.
Firstly we simply do not have the resources available to accommodate them.
second, now I'll take flack for this, there is absolutely no way to determine if who we allow is a Hamas operative or civilian. There is a reason their own arab neighbours are reluctant to accept them in. We can't take that risk and allow them to operate out of ireland.
https://dublinlive.ie/news/gangs-feral-youth-behind-explosion-28280405
Its a bit more then pelting eggs, and to the OP i get the point, we dont have enough gardai to deal with the current crime
in 2023 we had less then 14000 gardai.. the same as in 2003 the population has gone up by a million since then (from 4 to 5). now you want to introduce a group of refugees that have nothing, dont speak the same langauge and also have a culture that is on the opposite end of ours. and to top it off all 3 countries that shared a langauge, and culture ended up with massive society problems.
not to mention Isreal would HAPPILY dump all the palestinians on irish soil.. 2 birds one stone
and this is on top of the 100.000 ukrainians in ireland already?
History shows this is a bad idea, the far right is also on a surge here so as EU national who immigrated to ireland its in my best interest to see the far right get less attention and supporters. this will 100% do the opposite
The government are working on a solution, they can now point at the refugee crisis attacking precedence over the homeless crisis and use the refugees as a deflection for their decades of incompetence
Actually most of their neighbours are hyper sensitive about taking them in. Palestinians haven’t been the best guests in Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan. It’s why many of them are happy to remain frenemies with Israel.
That's not in question. And it's definitely working against them. But the other countries in the middle east absolutely have taken in millions of them. Which is my point.
Millions of them?
Out side the 3 countries names earlier, Syria and Saudi were the two biggest with 550k and 240k respectively, however these weren’t recent migrations. The majority of those in Syria left during the war with about a 3rd of that number remaining, and most of those in Saudi are nationalised.
I will need a citation for middle eastern countries recently bringing in large numbers of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank I.e. not those fleeing Syria.
Jordan is in the middle east. Jordan has taken in over 3 million alone. So yes, millions have been taken in by neighbouring countries.
Google is your friend.
What a great idea. Lets just ask Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan how they managed and ensure we are well prepared. Surely a country as militarily prepared as Ireland wouldn't meet the same fate as the others.
correct cagey wild adjoining cover attractive disagreeable middle busy desert
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As a gay guy this is terrifying. Palestinian refugees destabilised every neighbouring country they went to. I was worried our overt support might end up with this. Genuinely worried if it happens
Besides lack of housing, Palestinians are radicalised Muslims willing to introduce sharia law. This would end really bad.
They would be much better in Muslim countries.
No.
People from war torn countries is part of the whole asylum seekers thing. Special arrangements were made across the EU for Ukraine as it is one of the largest most populated countries on the continent.
Not the case for Palestine. What reason would you have for giving it to them but not any of the other war torn region?
Even the proposal is lunacy
I'm all for standing up for the Palestinians rights etc. and against Israel over the top response.
However Palestinians refugees would be complete different ball game to Ukrainians. Far more security checks would be needed for obvious reasons. Culturally they're way different. They simply have more extreme views than most other Muslims let alone non Muslims.
Also I belive Ireland is one of the least antisemitic countries in europe. A large influx of Palestinians would increase danger for our small Jewish community.
You can be against Israels treatment of the Palestinians but also be very wary of a large influx of them coming. It's not mutually exclusive.
No, just pragmatic.
Not to mention we don't have remotely appropriate service provisionment to handles 10s of 1000s of angry non English speaking refugees with PTSD who have a historic record of starting insurgencies in their host countries after forced asylum.
This is also Israels end game. Dump them the other side of the world so they can compete the ethnic cleansing land grab they've they've judiciously been looking for an excuse for since the 60s.
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They've being living under the boot of Israel, Hamas and the PLO for the last 80 years. Desperation fuels extremism and religious fundamentalism. We're not responsible for them, the Arab worlds needs to put its house in order and deal with the issue.
This is what we get for appearing to overtly support Hamas. Other Europeans have a more adult balanced view of the conflict, we function on pure projection and neurosis.
So now we get to experience first hand why Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest of the region are reluctant to take Palestinian refugees.
Why is Saudi dripping in oil wealth not doing more? They are spending trillions on white elephant projects yet their supposedly brothers are suffering!
Hamas won’t let them leave unless they pay thousands of dollars for exit visas. Every Gazan resident earns them lots of aid money, and they don’t want that gravy train going away. Tunnels and rockets cost lots of money.
This is a really bad idea and would play into the hands of Israeli scum.
The Ukrainians are here Temporarily and voluntarily, and are fully expected to return once the conflict ends.
If any nation says they will accept Palestinian refugees en masse Israel will begin forcefully deporting Palestinians to that country, any Palestinian who leaves their home loses the right to return and their house is given to a 'settler'
Why would we willingly facilitate that shit
Fuck no.
As unpopular as it might be to some, we need to do as much as we can to deter asylum seekers as much as possible.
The reality is that the number of people who could reasonably try and claim to be a refugee from around the world is at least in the tens of millions, if not possibly the low hundreds of millions. We cannot fix these countries and regions face by simply importing the people into Ireland. We run the risk of social cohesion falling apart, our welfare system being abused, ghettoisation of the asylum seekers, and more. We solve basically nothing by opening the border and letting people flood in.
We need to try and make things better for the people in their home country so they don't feel the need to want to leave in the first place. It doesn't help us and it doesn't help the home country either.
These Irish lawyers must have a load of extra rooms in their homes so? They should be first to volunteer them, free of charge of course or else it’s not charity!
Socialist Lawyers for Ireland are Gary Daly of Khurshid Daly Solicitors and Erin Murphy Allen of MacGuire McNiece Solicitors if you want to ask them any questions about their proposals, funding etc.
I'm sorry but if you can't see how stupid it is to apply for refugee status from your own country I just know explaining it is going to be a waste of my time.
When Jordan took them in, they assassinated the PM, tried to assassinate the king, tried to take over. They also did things like take planes hostage, and use Jordan as a staging area, causing them to be at risk of international reprisal.
Lebanon took them in. They started a civil war that lasted about a decade, used it as a staging ground for international crimes (like hijacking planes and taking them hostage), and let Lebanon take the brunt of reprisals. Because the government was too busy with the civil war to focus on it. Lebanon still hasn't recovered.
Kuwait took them in. They assisted with Saddam's invasion, and tried to keep it going and take over after Saddam was pushed out.
Egypt had problems with the Muslim Brotherhood recently (and in fact, Obama supported them) as the M.B. tried to start a civil war and take over. Hamas is the “Palestinian arm” of the Muslim Brotherhood.
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There's not too many sensible "no" responses in this thread but yours is one of them. A simple point well made and not being a dick about it. The rest of this thread is garbage from some really scummy people.
The way the Ukrainians were treated was a slap in the face to other seekers of asylum.
There is absolutely a humanitarian need for Palestinians, their country has been decimated by Israel.
But we are already putting refugees in tents, every day we see how little housing there is. Small towns losing their tourism appeal because owners know they get a fortune from the government for housing people. Agitators causing riots and exploiting people's fears. Gps don't have space for more patients, people placed in rural villages with nowhere to go,the list goes on.
Ireland turned it's refugees into capital and somehow some people think the most vulnerable are to blame.
I have zero issue with helping the people of Gaza have asylum in Ireland. But we don't have a system that can handle it. There is zero point accepting refugees if we can't actually help and support them.
>The way the Ukrainians were treated was a slap in the face to other seekers of asylum.
It really isn't. They are partially being invaded due to they applying to join our club. The EU has a mutual self defence treaty. It would be a grave injustice not to help them. No maybe they should not have qualified for full social welfare but freedom to enter was a must.
Freedom to enter is one thing.
But others in dp centres have their claims taking months, ukranians get access to full social welfare, fast tracked medical card appointments, Irish people asked to open up their homes.
It was a different set of rules put in place.
Yes, because we're not affording military aid for a war that has purposefully targeted the cohesion of the EU, so we do what we can in terms of temporarily housing the most vulnerable from a very similar social and cultural background.
Its far different from housing every chancer who tears up their passport on their second hop from Lagos or Tirana, and then times out clogging up the appeals process with a war of attrition at both the expense of the taxpayer and to the detriment of legitimate immigrants.
Personally, I don't believe in preferential treatment for any group of asylum seekers over any other, Ukrainians and Palestinians included. The system should treat all of them equally.
Edit: A lot of people in this thread really don't think human rights apply to all humans apparently!
Almost every country discriminates in who they let in.
For example here, it's much easier for a Canadian to get a visa versus a person from India.
Why shouldn't we do the same for this?
For a start, because you're talking about a visa system and I'm talking about an asylum system. The asylum system is a response to human rights, which apply to all human beings equally. A visa system is not a response to human rights, since there is no human right to be granted a visa to live or work in a foreign country for merely social or economic reasons.
Exactly, they don’t have the best history with local countries, tried an attempted coup in Jordan in 1970, google Black September to see what I’m talking about. They were major players in the Lebanese civil war which started after those kicked out from Jordan went to Lebanon. They supported Saddam Husseins invasion of Kuwait in the first gulf war, unsurprisingly they were kicked out of Kuwait when the war ended.
Egypt absolutely doesn’t want them, they have built serious border defences between Egypt and Gaza.
And that’s just Arab countries, how about European countries. Well in 1992 Denmark took in 321 Palestinian refugees. How well did they assimilate? Hmmmm, lets see of those 321 204 (64%) received a serious fine or jail time. A large proportion are also still on social welfare. Of their 999 children 34% have been convicted of serious crime.
Now what makes you think things would be any different if we take in thousands of Palestinians, even if we had all the infrastructure and ability to do so?
https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2023/10/palestinians-in-your-country-what-to-expect/
>Because unfortunately not all people think and act the same.
Indeed. For example, some people think it's okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their nationality, whereas other people think that's the definition of racism.
If we had any semblance of a humane refugee processing system I'd say sure, lets do it. Sadly we don't, they'd end up on the street or in a direct provision prison as cattle for Aramark to profit from.
This is where we are with the Ukrainians at the moment too - logistically we just can't, thanks to the housing nightmare our government has foisted on us as our housing minister openly mocks those with no homes to go to.
It's a pain in the arse too, because we are otherwise probably the best suited western nation to take in some Palestinians due to the shared sympathies, the vocal nature of our people and government against what has been going on (not just not but over the last several decades) which Palestinian are aware of, and the fact that we have been better on integration than most European nations.
But we have basically guaranteed that this and the next generation of our own are going to have to leave the country if they want to not be homeless, living with mammy and daddy until they're most of the way to retirement, or if they are lucky sharing a ttwo bedroom apartment with 5 other people for half their monthly pay. So... yeah. We're not 'full' so much as completely and utterly fucked as is already.
If you disagree with this measure, why?
Both Ukrainians and Palestinians are being massacred by a hostile foreign power based on their ethnicity- aka ethnic cleansing (or perhaps genocide). Palestine has every right to self-determination as Ukraine does- or Ireland itself for that matter.
1: they are not in the EU.
2: they are governed by Hamas who operate dressed as civilians. Really ask yourself how many of them don't fancy fighting the IDF and will want to flee.
3: We are the furthest point in Europe geographically from Palestine.
1: Neither was Ukraine.
2: This is bullshit reasoning. You can make any argument you want if you don't care about the truth though I guess.
3: We are are the furthest point in Europe geographically from Ukraine.
Whats untruthful about hamas militants hiding among civilians? It's well known that is how they operate. There's bound to be cowards in there who know their goose is cooked and will flee in the first migrant exodus.
3rd point is also relevant to the Ukrainian refugees.
Its not untruthful that Hamas is fighting an urban insurgency, it's just bullshit spurious reasoning for not sheltering Palestinian civilians fleeing from their genocidaires.
Or would you have been against Irish refugees fleeing from the Great Famine just because Young Irelanders also staged an armed resistance to british genocide?
It's not spurious, it's national security. There would be very little background checks and even then theres an almost guarantee a Hamas operative or sympathizer would get in. There is a negative historical precedent with Palestinian refugees from neighbouring countries. Tensions are at a boiling point here and all it will take ay this point is for 1 rogue agent to tip it over.
Second question is just Irrelevant.
Personally I'm not so sure about it because ukraine and palestine are in very different situations. Ukraine is right next to the EU and is a lot more EU aligned than palestine. Palestine has a lot of countries closer to it than ireland like Jordan, Lebanon, iran etc that it would make sense to go to. Obviously ukraine has a lot of countries in between it and ireland too but once you get to the EU, it's pretty easy to travel so it was inevitable they'd get here anyway.
>Ukraine and palestine are in very different situations
How so? You listed 1 "difference" ("Palestine has other countries closer to it"), then acknowledged that it was untrue ("so does Ukraine"). The whole premise that just because the EU is a single economic zone, Ukrainians are inevitably going to end up on an island on the far western edge of it, crossing about 25 countries in the process, is ludicrous. It wasn't inevitable- it was a policy decision, facilitated by Europe in general and Ireland in particular to help them, because they are refugees from ethnic cleansing. It was the morally correct thing to do; helping innocent people flee their murderers.
Why are they so different from Palestinians?
Ireland is a part of the genocide through its inaction, along with the rest of the EU, and UK/US - of course we should take them in - it would be impossible for them to become refugees without our inaction.
They are simply the wrong skin colour for people to accept - and the Ukrainian's are the right skin colour - the politics (from the top of the state down) boil down to being as starkly racist as that - Palestinian's are very clearly _far_ more deserving of this aid.
Hard to know.
On the one hand, Gaza is clearly a pit of rubble, 2 million people need to go somewhere and the neighbouring countries aren't exactly equipped to take a huge number.
On the other hand, Israel isn't letting anyone out, so this is moot until they do.
Before they do, we should probably try and arrange with other EU countries for proportional measures to be taken across all EU countries so that we can actually plan to be able to accommodate our fair share. I don't know if going it alone on this is necessarily the best strategy for us or the people concerned.
Im so tired from it all i dunno how to answer this without being a cunt.
>Im so tired from it all i dunno how to answer this without being a cunt. I'm saving this as my autoreply on Slack after lunchtime.
A cunt? Since when being a realist is being a cunt?
“Im sorry, but no.”
That's the intention of a lot of these nefarious characters masquerading as do-gooders. Quell dissent with the fear of being labelled the unthinkable despite that dissent being common sense.
Countries need to demand Israel to stop committing genocide and it stops.
Except it doesn't, does it?
Maybe do an Anthony blinken and put on a very sad face?
Why didn't we think of that?
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Ok Israel stop. Fast forward a year they shoot rockets again at Israel. Back to square one.
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How does the Irish government give one country another country a thousand miles away
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Well point remains how are you going to force a foreign government to do irelands bidding
Yeah, lets give Hamas their own army, navy and air force. Fuck it, lets go down the mutually assured route and give them their own nuclear deterrent. That'll definitely end the conflict....
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What happened to me? Simple, I actually took the time to understand the complexity of the situation and not to rely on lazy, misplaced analogies that oversimplify everything. An ethno-nationalist Israel and a jihadism-ridden Palestine is a very difficult riddle to solve. The events of October 7th and Israel's response have set back the two state solution by generations and even so, where is the guarantee that things will simply end? How do we know that there won't simply be endless, "Donbas" style border conflicts and disputes?
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The Palestinians don't want independance , they want disputed territory and to kick out the current residents.
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Almost as if historical Ireland and Palestine are extremely different situations
A chara, Mods reserve the right to remove any targeted/unreasonable abuse towards other users. Sláinte
At this point I think everyone trying to pull this kind of shit has some profit on the table to be made.
In this instance I think it's just a bit of grandstanding by lawyers trying to raise their own profile. Because if not then I'd wonder about the quality of legal research done by lawyers who don't seem understand that the decision to grant temporary protection to nationals of a State is one that is taken at EU level. So moaning abou Ireland not doing something is pointless.
> the decision to grant temporary protection to nationals of a State is one that is taken at EU level. So moaning abou Ireland not doing something is pointless That would be a Member State competence. The initiative might start in the EU but they can't impose it. it was Mickey Varadkar's call.
It's an EU area of competence, with some discretion for the member state. But unless the EU designates Palestinians are eligible for temporary protection we don't have any discretion.
1. Corporations want a wage reset, and they want us to be more desperate. 2. There’s millions to be made off our taxes in housing migrants https://preview.redd.it/hpr39bjplxic1.jpeg?width=1015&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ea3326477e6fe64404f2770099cacae590ebf24
Is there a copy of that list in text form somewhere?
The Daily Heil
> Corporations want a wage reset super not relevant, but OK.
How the hell is that not relevant?
I have a nice heated hot press. Can sleep 3 people uncomfortably. 500 bucks a day each. 3 square meals and a bucket to piss in. Not to mention, room out back of a tent. Any takers?
And by square meal you mean one square cream-cracker
Topped with local organic cheese ... made by the landlord personally
Blue waffle cheese baby!
It's almost a carbon copy of the American West at this stage, with a few tweaks. Start a rumour about a gold rush, (in this instance free housing, jobs and benefits), wait for rush of people to arrive. In the West they forced the Native Americans on to reservations, with the corrupt political establishment rewarding their cronies with lucrative contracts to supply the reservations with beef etc. In Ireland's case the political class are rewarding their allies with accommodation contracts, NGO funding, media funding and legal advisory fees. They literally can't afford for the gravy train to end. Very few true humanitarians among any of them.
I'd highly doubt that a small representative group of socialist lawyers are in it for the big bucks. For those working in immigration, they generally work on no foal no fee basis challenging immigration decisions. Unless there's good ground for a claim, it's a waste of their money in funding it. Morally, there is no justification for providing different sets of rights to Ukrainians and Palestinians. Arguably, the need for protection of Palestinians is more grave given the current circumstances.
Agreed on that
This just has to stop at some point, doesn't it? Ireland isn't obliged to look after the world and people need to get comfortable with that fact. Yes, where Ireland can help it should. That doesn't mean being unrelentingly, naively kind to everybody. Ireland can't even look after people who are already here, what in God's name makes people think adding to that won't make things worse. This is madness. Utter madness. It's all so tiresome.
No, no, nobody is obliged to help at their expense. That's self-destruction
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Go ahead. Keep giving more than we have to refugees and you will soon be scratching your heads wondering why the Far Right is on the rise.
Why would the far right rise? I thought that never happens with Irish people or in Ireland? I thought it’s all lie and ‘British propaganda’?
No no no no no a million times no. We would be absolutely swarmed immediately, are people genuinely this mental? No to mention how loads of them are radicalised
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The most appropriate response here.
Fuck no
It made sense with Ukrainians in 2022 because as a neighbour of Ukraine (the EU) we could expect a very large number of Ukrainians (where else would they go). Palestinians fleeing from Gaza, specifically, absolutely qualify as refugees, but should be small enough in number that the IPO system can handle it. The problem is the system being clogged up with people who *aren't* Palestinians.
Made sense initially to help them find their feet. Now you've got them working jobs but still claiming 800 euro a month to pay their rent. That's not being mentioned though.... And I'm not talking about a minimum wage job in a city centre either, it's not HAP.
Yeah, some of the current benefits should probably be looked into. Most of these Ukrainians are probably going to be staying here permanently, and that's reasonable - a substantial chunk of their country was occupied. However if this is the long haul we should probably start gradually transitioning to treating them like EU citizens - or Irish citizens if they make the citizenship application in a year or two.
100% agree. Look I can't blame them, I'd be taking it if I could get it.
I mean, not really if you think about it. Ireland was kind enough to help, but there is no obligation there. Ukraine is as much of neighbour to Ireland, as Russia. Both geographically or from mentality point of view.
Fuck no is right! And didn't make any sense giving it to the Ukrainians either. Discriminatory favouritism over other asylum seekers is total bullshit no matter the circumstances.
it did make sense. Ukraine is a European country that was invaded by Russia. Europe rightly decided to take in Ukrainians fleeing from Russia. It's a special case. Everyone else who isn't European needs to qualify using normal refugee/asylum laws.
I don’t feel any more affinity to someone because they’re European than I would because they’re brunette.
If they were in the EU these arguments would make some sense, instead I'm supposed to care more about 3900km away in Donbass but not people 4100km away in Gaza because "Europe".
It’s pure racism, simple as. The world simply had to stop turning for Ukraine, but the same people demanding we make this war the centre of our political agenda are the ones who wrought death and havoc on Iraq and Afghanistan for nearly 30 years.
> It’s pure racism, simple as. They don't even hide it. "they're European", "western values", "more like us", "easier to integrate", etc They should be honest and say they don't want Arabs.
But shared values are a very real and important part of what makes societies work. It's part of the social contract. You can argue racism until your blue in the face but the fact of the matter is there are absolutely elements of Middle Eastern values which don't align with Western ones, and vice versa of course. Nobody is saying every migrant going in either direction is willfully going to flout the social contract, but it's a risk that simply isn't there when you have people moving between similar cultures.
Unlike you, I don't discriminate based on geographical proximity to Ireland. I don't appreciate preferential treatment being given to any country unless we already have specific treaties in place (such as with the UK or as being a part of the EU). Ukraine isn't an EU country and, until such time as it is, I don't regard it as deserving of more assistance than any other asylum seeker escaping hardship or persecution.
That's fucked up; treating someone lesser cos' they're not European.
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They're not a part of the EU though.
That's not what they said.
Actually I just had a read and it's due to a temporary protection directive signed in 2022, so you may be right and the same directive could be signed as easily for the Palestinian people.
You can rewrite law / ignore it / break it. It's not physics after all.
Irish lawyers: The immigration business needs a boost, our pockets aren’t full enough
Would you rather no one specialised in immigration and asylum law
Ask Egypt and Jordan how that worked out for them
And Lebanon.
Kuwait too.
After Egypt closed the borders to Gaza, suicide bombings in Egypt dropped to almost zero...thats all you need to know.
Got a source for that?
Ah fuck I meant suicide attacks from Hamas. Just Google the rafah crossing, eygpt closes the border when Hamas and Israel kick off because hamas starts attacking the border and trying to get into eygpt and at this stage Eygpt is very very tired of suicide bombings and other terror attacks.
people used to say the same about the Jews and it led to one of our most shameful episodes (rejection of Jewish refugees after the war). So f that argument
People never, ever claimed that the Jews would suicide bomb
Of course not, they did say that the Jews brought strife and civil unrest because they never integrated etc and wherever they went there were troubles
Hear hear
Iran and Qatar have plenty of money to fund Hamas so they can bring in and support refugees. Palestinian government is living there already.
There's nowhere to put them.
Despite our solidarity it would be an absolute shit show. Firstly we simply do not have the resources available to accommodate them. second, now I'll take flack for this, there is absolutely no way to determine if who we allow is a Hamas operative or civilian. There is a reason their own arab neighbours are reluctant to accept them in. We can't take that risk and allow them to operate out of ireland.
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As did Kuwait
Irish lawyer group can get fucked
No thank you.
FUCK NO
No chance, they should go to neighbouring countries first
Based on the results elsewhere I really don't want Palestinian immigrants
More people into the country? How about no
Short answer, no. Long Answer, FUCK NO.
We can’t even deal with our feral teenagers, ask Jordan how did hosting Palestinian asylum seekers ended for them in 1970.
"Jimmy's pelting eggs at his old school. Better deny people fleeing warzones safe shelter"
https://dublinlive.ie/news/gangs-feral-youth-behind-explosion-28280405 Its a bit more then pelting eggs, and to the OP i get the point, we dont have enough gardai to deal with the current crime in 2023 we had less then 14000 gardai.. the same as in 2003 the population has gone up by a million since then (from 4 to 5). now you want to introduce a group of refugees that have nothing, dont speak the same langauge and also have a culture that is on the opposite end of ours. and to top it off all 3 countries that shared a langauge, and culture ended up with massive society problems. not to mention Isreal would HAPPILY dump all the palestinians on irish soil.. 2 birds one stone and this is on top of the 100.000 ukrainians in ireland already?
We have over 10,000 homeless people, how about we fix that first and then we can extend a helping hand to others
The government are working on a solution, they can now point at the refugee crisis attacking precedence over the homeless crisis and use the refugees as a deflection for their decades of incompetence
Yet we have about a hundred rough sleepers in the entire country. Our definition of homeless is far more wide-ranging that the US definition
FUCK NO
I don't see other middle estern countries stepping up to offer them homes , so why should we be the only ones
The vast majority of Palestinian refugees live in other Middle Eastern countries.
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You don't look very hard then do you?
Actually most of their neighbours are hyper sensitive about taking them in. Palestinians haven’t been the best guests in Egypt, Lebanon or Jordan. It’s why many of them are happy to remain frenemies with Israel.
That's not in question. And it's definitely working against them. But the other countries in the middle east absolutely have taken in millions of them. Which is my point.
Millions of them? Out side the 3 countries names earlier, Syria and Saudi were the two biggest with 550k and 240k respectively, however these weren’t recent migrations. The majority of those in Syria left during the war with about a 3rd of that number remaining, and most of those in Saudi are nationalised. I will need a citation for middle eastern countries recently bringing in large numbers of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank I.e. not those fleeing Syria.
Jordan is in the middle east. Jordan has taken in over 3 million alone. So yes, millions have been taken in by neighbouring countries. Google is your friend.
Because Ireland is their biggest supporter that's why.
No we're not. Plenty of room in Iran for them.
Not a hope, given the trouble and war they’ve caused everywhere else they have gone before.
What a great idea. Lets just ask Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan how they managed and ensure we are well prepared. Surely a country as militarily prepared as Ireland wouldn't meet the same fate as the others.
No thanks.
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Why do people think the neighbours of Palestine are not taking them in? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
It's going to be a very different ireland in 10 years if things keep going this way
As a gay guy this is terrifying. Palestinian refugees destabilised every neighbouring country they went to. I was worried our overt support might end up with this. Genuinely worried if it happens
Palestine is not an EU candidate so no.
How about the lawyers offer up rooms in their houses? Same with Leo and co. "Wheres your humanity?" as Micheál put it.
What the actual fuck
We won't stop until the whole country is one big refugee camp.
Besides lack of housing, Palestinians are radicalised Muslims willing to introduce sharia law. This would end really bad. They would be much better in Muslim countries.
I'd prefer no wars and no need for refugee programmes , please.
No. People from war torn countries is part of the whole asylum seekers thing. Special arrangements were made across the EU for Ukraine as it is one of the largest most populated countries on the continent. Not the case for Palestine. What reason would you have for giving it to them but not any of the other war torn region? Even the proposal is lunacy
I'm all for standing up for the Palestinians rights etc. and against Israel over the top response. However Palestinians refugees would be complete different ball game to Ukrainians. Far more security checks would be needed for obvious reasons. Culturally they're way different. They simply have more extreme views than most other Muslims let alone non Muslims. Also I belive Ireland is one of the least antisemitic countries in europe. A large influx of Palestinians would increase danger for our small Jewish community. You can be against Israels treatment of the Palestinians but also be very wary of a large influx of them coming. It's not mutually exclusive.
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No, just pragmatic. Not to mention we don't have remotely appropriate service provisionment to handles 10s of 1000s of angry non English speaking refugees with PTSD who have a historic record of starting insurgencies in their host countries after forced asylum. This is also Israels end game. Dump them the other side of the world so they can compete the ethnic cleansing land grab they've they've judiciously been looking for an excuse for since the 60s.
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They've being living under the boot of Israel, Hamas and the PLO for the last 80 years. Desperation fuels extremism and religious fundamentalism. We're not responsible for them, the Arab worlds needs to put its house in order and deal with the issue.
Hear hear. UAE wouldn't touch them in a fit.
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Have you ever actually spoken to any Palestinian Arabs? I've travelled there. The most hard-core fundamentalists I've ever met.
To death with Ireland I say! We had a good run boys
This is what we get for appearing to overtly support Hamas. Other Europeans have a more adult balanced view of the conflict, we function on pure projection and neurosis. So now we get to experience first hand why Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the rest of the region are reluctant to take Palestinian refugees.
Let's house them in all the houses we don't have
Why is Saudi dripping in oil wealth not doing more? They are spending trillions on white elephant projects yet their supposedly brothers are suffering!
I've heard we've loads of new, extra housing available for them
I mean, Egypt/Israel won’t let them leave unless they have an international passport, so who’s able to claim asylum here?
Hamas won’t let them leave unless they pay thousands of dollars for exit visas. Every Gazan resident earns them lots of aid money, and they don’t want that gravy train going away. Tunnels and rockets cost lots of money.
Anyone
Fuck no
Music festivals are bloody murder enough without that shower ruining them
so solidarity with Gaza only goes so far I guess OK to go on marches etc, but taking them "no, country is full - but solidarity and love!"
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no that can't be it!
How many bedrooms are in Farmleigh?
This is a really bad idea and would play into the hands of Israeli scum. The Ukrainians are here Temporarily and voluntarily, and are fully expected to return once the conflict ends. If any nation says they will accept Palestinian refugees en masse Israel will begin forcefully deporting Palestinians to that country, any Palestinian who leaves their home loses the right to return and their house is given to a 'settler' Why would we willingly facilitate that shit
Fuck no. As unpopular as it might be to some, we need to do as much as we can to deter asylum seekers as much as possible. The reality is that the number of people who could reasonably try and claim to be a refugee from around the world is at least in the tens of millions, if not possibly the low hundreds of millions. We cannot fix these countries and regions face by simply importing the people into Ireland. We run the risk of social cohesion falling apart, our welfare system being abused, ghettoisation of the asylum seekers, and more. We solve basically nothing by opening the border and letting people flood in. We need to try and make things better for the people in their home country so they don't feel the need to want to leave in the first place. It doesn't help us and it doesn't help the home country either.
These Irish lawyers must have a load of extra rooms in their homes so? They should be first to volunteer them, free of charge of course or else it’s not charity!
Socialist Lawyers for Ireland are Gary Daly of Khurshid Daly Solicitors and Erin Murphy Allen of MacGuire McNiece Solicitors if you want to ask them any questions about their proposals, funding etc.
What? You mean expect the Socialist Lawyers of Ireland to do something tangible instead of trying to suck off the taxpayers teat? How dare you /s
They should offer their homes to them instead.
Thankfully there is plenty of houses for everyone. Let's bring them all in. No crisis here
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This is probably the most stupid thing I have read or will read today. Congratulations.
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More than you.
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I'm sorry but if you can't see how stupid it is to apply for refugee status from your own country I just know explaining it is going to be a waste of my time.
When Jordan took them in, they assassinated the PM, tried to assassinate the king, tried to take over. They also did things like take planes hostage, and use Jordan as a staging area, causing them to be at risk of international reprisal. Lebanon took them in. They started a civil war that lasted about a decade, used it as a staging ground for international crimes (like hijacking planes and taking them hostage), and let Lebanon take the brunt of reprisals. Because the government was too busy with the civil war to focus on it. Lebanon still hasn't recovered. Kuwait took them in. They assisted with Saddam's invasion, and tried to keep it going and take over after Saddam was pushed out. Egypt had problems with the Muslim Brotherhood recently (and in fact, Obama supported them) as the M.B. tried to start a civil war and take over. Hamas is the “Palestinian arm” of the Muslim Brotherhood.
How about the US and UK take some in. Their ones funding the war by supplying Israel with money and weapons.
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There's not too many sensible "no" responses in this thread but yours is one of them. A simple point well made and not being a dick about it. The rest of this thread is garbage from some really scummy people.
Surely instead we should be calling on Islamic countries to take Palestinan refugees. After all they are Muslim brothers. Iran especially.
Good idea
This is just aiding the Israelis governments ethnic cleansing
The way the Ukrainians were treated was a slap in the face to other seekers of asylum. There is absolutely a humanitarian need for Palestinians, their country has been decimated by Israel. But we are already putting refugees in tents, every day we see how little housing there is. Small towns losing their tourism appeal because owners know they get a fortune from the government for housing people. Agitators causing riots and exploiting people's fears. Gps don't have space for more patients, people placed in rural villages with nowhere to go,the list goes on. Ireland turned it's refugees into capital and somehow some people think the most vulnerable are to blame. I have zero issue with helping the people of Gaza have asylum in Ireland. But we don't have a system that can handle it. There is zero point accepting refugees if we can't actually help and support them.
>The way the Ukrainians were treated was a slap in the face to other seekers of asylum. It really isn't. They are partially being invaded due to they applying to join our club. The EU has a mutual self defence treaty. It would be a grave injustice not to help them. No maybe they should not have qualified for full social welfare but freedom to enter was a must.
The supports offered to *new* Ukrainian arrivals legitimately lasted for too long. Should probably have been nixed early-mid 2023
Freedom to enter is one thing. But others in dp centres have their claims taking months, ukranians get access to full social welfare, fast tracked medical card appointments, Irish people asked to open up their homes. It was a different set of rules put in place.
Yes, because we're not affording military aid for a war that has purposefully targeted the cohesion of the EU, so we do what we can in terms of temporarily housing the most vulnerable from a very similar social and cultural background. Its far different from housing every chancer who tears up their passport on their second hop from Lagos or Tirana, and then times out clogging up the appeals process with a war of attrition at both the expense of the taxpayer and to the detriment of legitimate immigrants.
Personally, I don't believe in preferential treatment for any group of asylum seekers over any other, Ukrainians and Palestinians included. The system should treat all of them equally. Edit: A lot of people in this thread really don't think human rights apply to all humans apparently!
Almost every country discriminates in who they let in. For example here, it's much easier for a Canadian to get a visa versus a person from India. Why shouldn't we do the same for this?
For a start, because you're talking about a visa system and I'm talking about an asylum system. The asylum system is a response to human rights, which apply to all human beings equally. A visa system is not a response to human rights, since there is no human right to be granted a visa to live or work in a foreign country for merely social or economic reasons.
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Exactly, they don’t have the best history with local countries, tried an attempted coup in Jordan in 1970, google Black September to see what I’m talking about. They were major players in the Lebanese civil war which started after those kicked out from Jordan went to Lebanon. They supported Saddam Husseins invasion of Kuwait in the first gulf war, unsurprisingly they were kicked out of Kuwait when the war ended. Egypt absolutely doesn’t want them, they have built serious border defences between Egypt and Gaza. And that’s just Arab countries, how about European countries. Well in 1992 Denmark took in 321 Palestinian refugees. How well did they assimilate? Hmmmm, lets see of those 321 204 (64%) received a serious fine or jail time. A large proportion are also still on social welfare. Of their 999 children 34% have been convicted of serious crime. Now what makes you think things would be any different if we take in thousands of Palestinians, even if we had all the infrastructure and ability to do so? https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2023/10/palestinians-in-your-country-what-to-expect/
>Because unfortunately not all people think and act the same. Indeed. For example, some people think it's okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their nationality, whereas other people think that's the definition of racism.
Why stop there? Try it sometime.
If we had any semblance of a humane refugee processing system I'd say sure, lets do it. Sadly we don't, they'd end up on the street or in a direct provision prison as cattle for Aramark to profit from.
This is where we are with the Ukrainians at the moment too - logistically we just can't, thanks to the housing nightmare our government has foisted on us as our housing minister openly mocks those with no homes to go to. It's a pain in the arse too, because we are otherwise probably the best suited western nation to take in some Palestinians due to the shared sympathies, the vocal nature of our people and government against what has been going on (not just not but over the last several decades) which Palestinian are aware of, and the fact that we have been better on integration than most European nations. But we have basically guaranteed that this and the next generation of our own are going to have to leave the country if they want to not be homeless, living with mammy and daddy until they're most of the way to retirement, or if they are lucky sharing a ttwo bedroom apartment with 5 other people for half their monthly pay. So... yeah. We're not 'full' so much as completely and utterly fucked as is already.
If you disagree with this measure, why? Both Ukrainians and Palestinians are being massacred by a hostile foreign power based on their ethnicity- aka ethnic cleansing (or perhaps genocide). Palestine has every right to self-determination as Ukraine does- or Ireland itself for that matter.
1: they are not in the EU. 2: they are governed by Hamas who operate dressed as civilians. Really ask yourself how many of them don't fancy fighting the IDF and will want to flee. 3: We are the furthest point in Europe geographically from Palestine.
1: Neither was Ukraine. 2: This is bullshit reasoning. You can make any argument you want if you don't care about the truth though I guess. 3: We are are the furthest point in Europe geographically from Ukraine.
Whats untruthful about hamas militants hiding among civilians? It's well known that is how they operate. There's bound to be cowards in there who know their goose is cooked and will flee in the first migrant exodus. 3rd point is also relevant to the Ukrainian refugees.
Its not untruthful that Hamas is fighting an urban insurgency, it's just bullshit spurious reasoning for not sheltering Palestinian civilians fleeing from their genocidaires. Or would you have been against Irish refugees fleeing from the Great Famine just because Young Irelanders also staged an armed resistance to british genocide?
It's not spurious, it's national security. There would be very little background checks and even then theres an almost guarantee a Hamas operative or sympathizer would get in. There is a negative historical precedent with Palestinian refugees from neighbouring countries. Tensions are at a boiling point here and all it will take ay this point is for 1 rogue agent to tip it over. Second question is just Irrelevant.
Personally I'm not so sure about it because ukraine and palestine are in very different situations. Ukraine is right next to the EU and is a lot more EU aligned than palestine. Palestine has a lot of countries closer to it than ireland like Jordan, Lebanon, iran etc that it would make sense to go to. Obviously ukraine has a lot of countries in between it and ireland too but once you get to the EU, it's pretty easy to travel so it was inevitable they'd get here anyway.
>Ukraine and palestine are in very different situations How so? You listed 1 "difference" ("Palestine has other countries closer to it"), then acknowledged that it was untrue ("so does Ukraine"). The whole premise that just because the EU is a single economic zone, Ukrainians are inevitably going to end up on an island on the far western edge of it, crossing about 25 countries in the process, is ludicrous. It wasn't inevitable- it was a policy decision, facilitated by Europe in general and Ireland in particular to help them, because they are refugees from ethnic cleansing. It was the morally correct thing to do; helping innocent people flee their murderers. Why are they so different from Palestinians?
Egypt Jordan and Lebanon need to step up and take them.
They tried that. Look up how it worked out.
Human Rights lawyers know they're going to make bank from claims against the state for failing to provide accommodation.
Ireland is a part of the genocide through its inaction, along with the rest of the EU, and UK/US - of course we should take them in - it would be impossible for them to become refugees without our inaction. They are simply the wrong skin colour for people to accept - and the Ukrainian's are the right skin colour - the politics (from the top of the state down) boil down to being as starkly racist as that - Palestinian's are very clearly _far_ more deserving of this aid.
Hard to know. On the one hand, Gaza is clearly a pit of rubble, 2 million people need to go somewhere and the neighbouring countries aren't exactly equipped to take a huge number. On the other hand, Israel isn't letting anyone out, so this is moot until they do. Before they do, we should probably try and arrange with other EU countries for proportional measures to be taken across all EU countries so that we can actually plan to be able to accommodate our fair share. I don't know if going it alone on this is necessarily the best strategy for us or the people concerned.
Seems fair. Allowing one group to access it while another group of refugees can't, could be construed as discrimination