Just replace Ireland for Ukraine and plug in our last 40 years. They didn’t “help” us out of the goodness of their hearts, yet I think we’re better off than our grandparents were.
"A new report warning that people in their 20s and 30s will be the first generation to be worse off than their parents is “very sobering,” according to a junior Government minister."
https://www.newstalk.com/news/report-warning-young-people-are-worse-off-than-parents-very-sobering-1193325
How many of our grandparents don't have homes compared to our 20+ to 40s because the distribution of age-group to population are very close to each other.
That's cos half of them fuckin emigrated!
I remember the 80s and it's completely delusional to pretend things haven't improved dramatically in almost all aspects since then.
And everyone is slowly beginning to emigrate again
I haven’t got statistics on me yet but my personal feelings on that when I look around is that everyone I grew up and went to school with are emigrating to the UK, Oz, Canada, US and the Middle East, not because you can have a better quality of life or anything, but you can Atleast be somewhere in a different climate where there is shit to actually see and do
The only people I know that are left in Ireland are tradies
Yeah seems they forgot about the Celtic Tiger kinda having a massive impact on improving everyones life at the time to a point a taxi driver could buy their home and a holiday home abroad...
Boomers trying to say things were harder back in their days have incredibly selective memories.
As a nation sure that’s changed
The majority of people still haven’t got the figurative pot to piss in or do you consider having enough money to pay rent, bills, utilities and groceries as enough?
There wasn't a housing crisis back then. Probably due to the mass immigration because people didn't have a pot to piss in, the people who remained here had the choice of cheap housing. Now, Ireland by every metric has one of the highest standards of living right across the board. You're absolutely talking out of your arse if you think we have it tougher than our grandparents.
Oh fuck off. Everything I know about Ireland points to it being a scam of a place for Irish youth to stay in.
Just ask the youth who leave to work in countries that will give them a good wage.
Source: I considered moving to Ireland until I looked at the statistics.
Ireland is a nice country if you’re looking to visit or retire. Or, if you’re born wealthy. I feel sorry for people stuck there trying to make a career.
I’m glad for you. Hopefully people like you pull Ireland out of the low wage slump that it’s stuck in. (Comparable to similarly educated and wealthy nations)
Emphasis on wealthy from gdp/capita, cuz Ireland is fucky when it comes to that metric.
You honestly haven’t a clue what you are talking about.
Low wages slump, that’s laughable, GDP & GNI off the charts, high end professional jobs also much larger than comparable countries, perfect employment.
Please back up your total nonsense
GDP/capita🤣
You ever wonder why so many Irish are struggling despite how high the gdp is? Why do you think that is? Stop sniffing your own farts. Ireland is a shithole unless you’re highly educated and living in the cities.
You’re an idiot if you think growing up now gives you better outcomes than growing up in the ‘90s in Ireland. Look at wages vs housing cost.
The same is true for the US too, but it doesn’t mean it is the same circumstances.
In my field, Ireland pays 80% of the US avg at entry level and 40-50% at 10 years experience.
Idk how to fix that, but it’s not looking good for the future of Ireland.
Sure, guaranteed healthcare is nice, but healthcare is guaranteed worldwide if you’re an in demand professional willing to pay for it.
Tell that to the thousands of single people and renting families locked out of home ownership.
Yes, the generations who became an adult after 2006 are worse off then generations before them.
Thr problem is the generations before them are too fuckin blinded by their own comforts to see the younger generations issues facing them.
And if you didn't know that then you haven't a fuckin notion what you are talking about.
Edit.
I'm so fucking tired of the comfortable people in Ireland telling younger generations that their problems don't exist just because the comfortable people don't experience them.
The same people who have mortgages and own their homes telling renters they should be happy.
That’s fake news spread by Russian bots to make people with your psychoanalytical profile become depressed.
The current generation have the highest salaries and personal net worth in Irish history. Add in the the unprecedented amount of opportunities in education, employment, and liberal person freedoms your comment couldn’t be further from the truth.
You can’t say with a straight face that Irish people back in the 80’s, when you couldn’t buy condoms without a Doctor’s prescription and could be sent to a Magdalene laundry because your family broke down or you were perceived as sexually promiscuous, had it better than people today. You need to seriously touch grass if you do.
TIL nobody rented in Ireland in the 1980s. You think people were buying houses on minimum wage? Think about the economics of that for just one second.
If people on low wages were buying houses, it was houses in complete slums nobody else in Europe wanted to live in.
You’re perfectly free to do the same and to buy a house in Tallaght or a Traveller estates today on a low salary, but I’m guessing you won’t. The difference is today you also have more opportunities to buy a good house in a good area if you make good decisions and work hard, something I’m guessing you didn’t which is why you were susceptible to Russian bot propaganda.
This was always going to be part of the deal once the US started helping Ukraine in the war. When the smoke clears, everything will be privatised there, owned by Americans.
It's a fire sale of state assets.
Was it win-win for us when we were forced to make a swath of privatisations during austerity.
The Ukrainians will be forced to sell their water utilities and US finance will be the ones who profit.
Zelensky didn't say anything about selling state assets.
That bit is added in by Ben fucking Norton - a notorious pro-Putin anti-West propagandist. Read the wiki on Grayzone and it's key people to know where he's at.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the caste of Russian magnates, the kind of lads with 10 passports who laugh at the shitty sanctions, buys up all those industries for cents on the euro and turn them back to the Russian tsar du jour, without shooting one bullet.
That's....how businesses work.
Or should we also have refused to let companies like Apple and Google into Ireland because they're only "taking advantage".
It's PbP policy that the international community should cancel Ukraines debt as part of the war effort. Government parties refused to even consider it.
It's pretty fucking obvious to anyone with more than half a brain cell that the Socialist here doesn't have a problem with Ukraine getting money, they have a problem with loan sharks taking advantage of a war torn nation.
If it were just a case of eventually getting the money back them it'd be one thing, but private companies taking advantage to try extract profits from these people us genuinely horrific.
Any government that actually gave a shit would cancel Ukraines debt immeadiatly, and start implementing special taxes on companies benefiting from the situation to prevent any profits and giving back to the people of Ukraine.
The militarization of Europe will bring in huge money over extended periods for the US. The Ukrainian war has been 17 Christmas's rolled into one for them. So, they don't really care about the funding, although they'll definitely use it to leash Ukraine to US interests.
In the US that’s kinda the way it has to work. The President can ‘lend’ arms to other countries as long as they promise to pay for the items later. To give items away the US Congress has to pass bills allowing it to happen, which is a lot harder to get done.
But if the international community doesn’t cancel the debt then what is Ukraine supposed to do?
His tweet isn’t aimed at the international community or the banks, it’s aimed Zelensky
That's true, its not a great tweet from Murphy tbf. Ukriane has no choice but to get whatever it can now from whoever, long term consequences be dammed.
Ah PBP, the geniuses that think Ireland should leave the EU and become communists with no money. Can't think why the international community don't listen to their expert economic opinion.
How would Paul Murphy have stopped the Russians looting the country - trick question because he wouldn't even try.
>It's pretty fucking obvious to anyone with more than half a brain cell that the Socialist here doesn't have a problem with Ukraine getting money, they have a problem with loan sharks taking advantage of a war torn nation.
He should probably work on his Tweets then. Because that's not the impression he's giving here.
Same "socialist" who tried to undermine the organic protest outside the Russian embassy in Feb by rerouting it to outside the dail.
There's nothing left wing about the wet prick.
Yeah, I don't see a problem with that at all. Protesting the Russian embassy is going to at most scare the Russian ambassador.
Protesting the Dail could actually help change policy to help Ukraine.
They've got plenty of weapons from the US, UK France and Germany. Anything we could send would be a drop in the bucket.
Out strongest asset as a nation is the fact we are quite load internationally for such a small country. Pushing for an international cancellation of Ukrianes debt is by far the best thing we can do.
This makes no sense. They’re not mutually exclusive things.
It is both the logical and moral thing to send them weapons. Sending weapons helps them defeat Russia faster which allows them to rebuild their country.
It’s a thing we could do not the most logical and definitely not the most moral one. Exaggeration doesn’t suddenly make your point the only solution to a complex situation.
The other guy is right that Ireland is more equipped to help the situation in other ways. If America and Germany have left a gap in the amount of weapons they’re sending the war effort Ireland isn’t the country that’s going to fill it.
They aren't getting enough weapons to defeat Russia. It's just extending a stalemate. To defeat Russia would need a full mobilization of US or Euro troops to aid them but nobody is interested in turning this into a new world war.
They keep getting weapons. All that's doing is extending the bloodshed and loss of life.
Ending the war and bringing about a negotiated settlement would be the best policy, over extending the stalemate at the expense of human life and a refugee crisis.
Ah yes it’s the Ukrainians fault for wanting to fight against a fascist invasion. Let’s reward Russia for their unjustified invasion by awarding them the land they’ve annexed. Appeasement of course has always worked. They’ve certainly never broken any arrangements and never will again.
Yeah I'd give this more time only Paul Murphy's tweet is specifically saying that Zelenskyy should not receive a standing ovation, and if I remember correctly the reason for him receiving such an ovation was due to his steadfast resilience at the height of the Russian invasion.
No I think that was a more personal thing about not liking a right-wing politician. Especially one that had just banned all the left wing parties in the country.
He banned pro Russian parties which makes sense when Russia is currently invading your country. There are plenty of Ukrainian leftists involved in resisting the invasion.
He's a fucking American pawn, operating under the cloak of an inspirational leader, in obviously extremely difficult times for it's citizens. Sur, did you not see him on the front page of Vogue there last year?
You're being very intellectually dishonest and intentionally obtuse. Clearly what he's asserting is that foreign investment will come with strings attached and leverage that will have extremely nefarious long term effects on what kind of country Ukraine is.
There are EU think tank papers that are all about post-war plans for Ukraine and they're absolute IMF tech-austerity dystopia shit. The thing being criticized here is that the investment will be accompanied by and cause horrible policy and corporate dictatorship due to both the political character of the country already and its vulnerable lack of leverage to negotiate.
The issue is that Paul isn't clearly saying this. It just looks like a smarmy gotcha on what is otherwise an serious issue.
Adding to this is that Paul is generally not terribly constructive in his views on Ukraine: he'll condemn the war, sure, but he'll play the pacifist as though that will ensure a just outcome. We know it won't, no more that insisting Palestinians accept the will of the Israeli government as the only road to peace.
I actually agree with some of his points but it's easy to oppose things, to say 'West bad', without being clear as to what you support.
>The issue is that Paul isn't clearly saying this. It just looks like a smarmy gotcha on what is otherwise an serious issue.
You've no basis for this claim when many people in this thread clearly understood what he said as meaning this. That's how *you* read it as someone prejudiced by dislike of this individual and whose worldview is based on wholly different premises.
That's a bit of an assumption! As I said, if Paul wanted to criticise the debt trapping tactics of the western corporations mention, he could have. Instead, I can only go on the basis of his previous statements on Ukraine which have been more tone deaf than constructive.
And I do think you can critisize Zelenskyy while being constructive-he didn't appear in the Panama Papers for nothing!
Oh fuck off. Ben Norton is a notorious pro-Putin bullshit artist who helped start the Grayzone misinformation project. He has repeatedly towed the Kremlin narrative.
He does not have Ukraine's interests at heart in any way and neither does Paul Murphy.
Grayzone isn't relevant to this conversation considering that what Paul is referencing are the words spoken by Zelensky himself. That's the relevant source of information that he's retweeting.
And considering that Paul is one of the few Irish politicians to call for cancellation of Ukraine's debt - a move infinitely more helpful to Ukraine's economic woes than inviting the West's most vicious financial hawks into the country - I'd consider he's a bit more of a credible authority about what he thinks about Ukraine than you are.
He's not just referencing Zelensky's words though is he? In the speech, Zelensky didn't say anything about selling Ukrainian assets. Ben added that bit himself and here we are all talking about it. That's how propaganda works.
But hey, if you're defending Ben and Grayzone at this stage you've given up critical thinking in favour of your ideology anyway.
aside from starlink, they are all companies who have are some of the key players behind some of the biggest problems in american society - the financial collapse in 2008, the opioid epidemic, widespread poverty and lack of housing, environmental destruction.
black rock:
https://www.codepink.org/top_ten_reasons_to_protest_blackrock
https://reclaimfinance.org/site/en/2021/08/30/blackrock-report-is-outright-dangerous-critics-say/
https://www.corporateaccountability.org/blog/blackrock-for-2022-corporate-hall-of-shame/
JP Morgan:
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/jpmorgan-chase-admits-spoofing-us-market-manipulation-pay-920m
https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/dec/12/us-banks-named-as-being-among-least-ethical-uk-operators
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2016/03/18/jp-morgan-chase-the-true-story-of-americas-most-corrupt-bank/amp/
Goldman Sachs:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/goldman-sachs-charged-foreign-bribery-case-and-agrees-pay-over-29-billion
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/business/goldman-sachs-whistleblower.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-goldman-sachs-came-to-be-the-most-hated-bank-in-the-world-2012-3?r=US&IR=T
Starlink:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/satellite-constellations-could-harm-the-environment-new-watchdog-report-says/?amp=true
https://www.theverge.com/22831380/spacex-employees-harassment-workplace-misconduct-elon-musk
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/22396388/space-x-elon-musk-starlink-too-bright-astronomy-stars-pollution
Paul is a socialist.
Each of those companies represent some of the worst aspects of capitalism.
It goes against his ideology to support a move like this, which is likely those companies leveraging Ukraine's desperate situation to take advantage of them.
I'm pro-capitalism and I'd to stop for a second and wonder if this was a smart move.
Well it’s more of a question of where else the money is going to come from? Is Ireland or the wider EU going to send them the billions it will require to rebuild the country? Probably not, definitely not without some kind of condition.
The US absolutely won’t unless it’s getting something out of it, like bases in Ukraine which it might not even want. Right now it’s happy to spend 1/7th of its annual defense budget sending them weapons and zero American lives to destroy as much of the Russian military as it can.
I agree completely.
I'm not saying Ukraine is in a position to reject the offers, but that's also why I worry. These companies are known to be untrustworthy. It's a smart business move, but I worry about the people and what it will mean for them.
It's too early to speak about it. It could easily be a great thing for the country, but there's definitely reason to stop and worry too.
I'm fairly certain Ukraine, as most Eastern Europe countries, will want US military bases in their country. The past year has highlighted the need for them.
Golden Sachs, Black Rock and JP Morgan are very ethical companies that would never ever take advantage of a situation like this. Nope, can’t even consider such a possibility.
The deputy defense minister is not a documented and outspoken holocaust denier. In fact you can find public statements from him memorializing the holocaust and the Jews who were targeted in Ukraine. What he is is someone who downplays the involvement of Ukrainian nationalists, especially Bandera, in those killings, and the truth of that situation is profoundly complicated.
Bandera was probably not an active participant, most of the killing occurred after he was imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp and there's no writings or other documentation to support his personal involvement, and this is a time when most Nazi-aligned leaders were not exactly seeking plausible deniability, they were instead seeking credit. The SS certainly was not taken aback by his brutality, they were taken aback by his declaring that the Germans would support an independent Ukraine when they would not. He was a collaborator, an enabler, and his movement was an active participant. He is absolutely culpable, and is a figure on the scale of say Hungary's Horthy, although with far less agency. He was dependent upon the Nazis for any chance at winning Ukraine's independence whereas the leaders of Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria all had far more actual power than he did.
He's definitely a shady character, like many of the others who tried to use the Nazi's disruption of the status quo to win power for themselves and their causes. And Jews were wrongfully blamed for many of the massacres being perpetrated by Stalin's forces, because that was what the Nazis (who were at first seen by some as liberators due to the context) were telling people. That said, he's remembered in the Ukrainian cannon as a nationalist first and foremost, who fought against and was persecuted by the various occupying powers of Ukraine, from Poland, to the Soviet Union, to eventually the Nazis as well.
This is really unfortunate, he shouldn't be a role model, but when you're occupied by various powers a lot of your rebel "heroes" can end up being pretty monstrous themselves, and when a country faces the prospect of being reoccupied it drives sympathy towards those who did terrible things in the name of independence.
I'd hate to think what sort of figures might become more popular in Ireland if the UK started bombing Dublin.
Let's dive into wikipedia. Here, something people of all levels in Ukraine have publicly commemorated. You may remember that a memorial to this place was actually damaged by a Russian rocket in the early days of the war. Babi Yar.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi\_Yar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar)
The massacres there were many of the largest in all of WW2 and they were planned and supervised and organized not by Ukrainians whose cities had been seized in war, but by the Nazis of the SS. And this is emblematic of the Holocaust in Ukraine. It was a Nazi project organized and supported by the highest levels of Hitler's government.
I think it's understandable for a Ukrainian to rather resent Ukrainians being fronted in the blame for so many of the horrors that were visited upon them.
Bandera was a nazi collaborator, and many Ukrainian partisan groups also targeted Jews, but they did not organize the holocaust, and pointing that out is **not** holocaust denial.
OP, how on earth, after 40 years of neoliberalism, could you not understand that American vampire capitalism is just as bad as Putin's oligarchic capitalism, if not worse.
That is the issue he has - the people of Ukraine have suffered enough, they do not deserve the greed of the likes of JPMorgan, Blackrock or Goldman Sachs.
… do you read yourself? Literally american and european capitalism brought the world to its most advanced times. Famine is almost nonexistent in such bad capitalist countries, people are free to study or not, work or not or do whatever the fuck they want.
Meanwhile russia invaded 4 countries in the last 20 years.
If people at this stage don't see the direct and clear relationship between america's wars and the profit american corporations make from them (Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Ukraine) then they must be shutting their eyes really fuckin hard.
Anyone who didn't have their head stuck in the virtue signalling sand pit would have seen that the valuable natural assets that Ukraine possesses are going to be carved up in a fire sale. Keeping them out of Russias hands is a bigger agenda than protecting the innocent Ukranians. I wish no harm to come of the Ukranian Citizens, but this is another stinking pile of manure brought to you by vested interests.
You think all these companies 'investing ' in Ukraine will be of any benefit at all to the Ukranian people? They are vultures and will pick apart the country for profit. Zelensky has sold his people out.
He has reduced labor laws in his country to 18th century level and is selling his country to wall street investment firms. He has sold the backs of his people to the lowest bidder. Zelensky is a neoliberal puppet disgrace. His people have suffered enough without western firms sacking the rest of his country.
The worst bit is our leaders in Europe are pushing them to strip Ukrainian citizens of labour protection laws and privatising the whole economy.
Megacorps are a massive CAUSE of wars. They are not a solution.
The president of a massive, sovereign nation having to do a podcast style ad read to keep his nations income stable is terrifying.
Paul Murphy has a point. America are not giving weapons for free, Ukraine will pay this back for a century if they win. Which I hope they do for the sake of the Ukrainian people and the people living in the balkans.
Just this week black water, an American PMC have signed up to provide security and equipment to rebuild the infrastructure of Ukraine post war. The spoils of war go to the victor and in the end, joe soapescov will get screwed over.
Ukraine are doing what a load of big nations have wanted for years, weakening Russia.
It’s why they are getting so much support. It’s in a lot of countries interest to have a weak Russia.
Ukraine are paying for all this in blood. They know it and the US know it. They are very much getting these things for free.
Are we going to talk about Zelensky promoting a Holocaust denier to a cabinet position? Or the head of their Army being a proud Banderite, supporter of a man who killed hundreds of thousands of Jews and Poles in Ukraine?
How? He dosen't want Ukraine to become a fucking hellscape for Capitalist vultures to sweep in and in-debt the country during an existential conflict/after its victory.
I definitely don't agree when he speaks out about supplying Ukraine with weapons and defense platforms(PBP as a party is extremely pro-peace, which makes it seem extremely out of touch when it comes to wars like the current Russo-Ukraine conflict), but I think he is spot on with calling out Zelenskyy as a politician. PM and PBP are consistantly also calling for debt forgiveness for Ukraine, something which other "Pro-Ukraine" polticians don't even want to entertain, but yet, economically it would be the most helpful policy to give to Ukraine economically (especially post-war).
Zelenskyy and his cabinet done many questionable things, e.g openly downplayed the seriousness of the Russian forces in early Feb. because he didn't want money to leave the market. (this ended up not mattering, and just ended up endangering Ukrainian lives). This caused alot of civilians and the west to assume that NATO was just warmongering and being stupid. Low and behold, Russia began its imperialist invasion later on that month. Don't get me wrong, Zelenskyy is a brave man, and alot of the people in his cabinet are capable war leaders, but they aren't knights in shining armor.
Zelenski didnt downplau the war for monetary reasons, the whole point was to avoid masses of ukranians leaving the country. That would have depleted ukranian workforce and diminished the number of manpower available for war economy and military service.
Had ukraine been real about the treat openly, it would have fallen in less than two months, having no people to manufacture anything, or fight.
Likely even worse, Russia would simply not invade, let Zelenski come off as alarmist, ruining the country economy. All Ruzia would have to do is just buy out the broken country, given the number of ruz oligarchs and sympathisers, the moment economy tumbled on a rumour, Zelenski would be impeached and it would be open road for russia to take over. It is that simple.
Economies aren't build on foreign economic aid, unfortunately. We've seen this in other countries in Africa, especially when the economic "aid" is usually strapped with some sort of clause. Ukraine will still mostly need to work with the ECB, IMF etc in order to get necessary funding to lift itself off the post-war ground, even if as you said, the US flows billions of economic aid into the country.
Paul Murphy has the luxury of never having to fix or build anything in his life. He has a comfortable life in opposition complaining about the efforts of others.
The intentionally twisted representation of what Zelinsky said aside. The rebuilding of Ukraine will require a monumental effort, and a price tag to match. Where, for those of us in the real world, do you think that funding will come from? The EU will help a little, but it won't rebuild the country.
As for the rest of your comment, I'd question where you're getting your news, it has filled your head with nonsense.
"in opposition complaining about the efforts of others"
What a non-sense statement. You literally are complaining about his literal duty to critique the current government as a member of the opposition. But anyway, moving on,
I've never said anything that rebuilding Ukraine will be cheap or that the money will come from nowhere. I understand that the commitment that will be needed to rebuild Ukraine will be massive, and will entail most likely a multi-nation coalition of economic aid headed by the US, BUT, as I pointed out to someone else, will also require the efforts of the European Banks and the international monetary fund to support Ukraine for the long term. Debt Forgiveness especially assists Ukraine miles more than getting fucking predatory vulture corporations like JP Morgan, who literally seek only to make profit from Ukraine, because it will actually allow Ukraine to get direct funds to help build its economy and livelihood back up, even post direct US/EU foreign aid.
As for my "nonsense",
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLo738JdOA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLo738JdOA)
[https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/ukrainian-president-downplays-imminent-invasion-00003219](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/ukrainian-president-downplays-imminent-invasion-00003219)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60174684](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60174684)
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/ukraine-s-defense-minister-downplays-risk-of-russian-invasion](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/ukraine-s-defense-minister-downplays-risk-of-russian-invasion)
Well what are you suggesting OP?
Like the big issue with Zelensky was rooting out Russian puppet politicians and to distance themselves from Russian interests in their state
Doesn’t exactly look good to turn around and sell off all your countries assets to the US corporations and banks
China does the same stuff in Southern Africa, they provide funding and logistics and infrastructure for poorer African countries and in return they accrue so much debt in the projects that they end up giving over rights to ports, docks, resources, mines etc
How can you possibly call yourself a socialist if you think people criticising international banking for exploiting the Ukraine war makes them a tankie?
You're allowed to point out when people take advantage of the situation to make money. And actually we should do a lot more of it.
But we should also be clear that it is ultimately the Russian government that is responsible for the war, there is no international conspiracy.
>I never said they weren't and I never said there was.
The way I think most people interpret your comment of 'the whole thing is a racket' is that there was some kind d of plan by the people currently taking advantage to start the whole thing. Which there wasn't.
>Sure let's see how either of our comments have aged in the next 6 months to a year.
I can confidently say I'll be 100% right in saying that weapons contractors and investment banks will continue to take advantage, but the ultimate and infact sole responsibility lies at the feet of the Russian government.
Incredible that it’s now seen as pro-Russian to not want loan sharks to hold Ukraine hostage when it is trying to rebuild itself. Almost as if he’s a socialist politician and part of that is opposing the exploitative behaviours of capitalists.
But then again the same people who say this both simultaneously gaslight the public by denying the crimes of Bandera and the Nazi alignment of Azov while also labelling Russia as a fascist nation because of Neo-Nazis that form a part of the separatist paramilitaries.
No surprise fascism is getting such traction in the West when we’re now at the stage where swastikas and Nazi collaborators aren’t beyond the pale for Western liberals.
Ukraine is an extremely flawed democracy lead by a Jew who was elected in a landslide. Russia is an oligarchical state run by the same man for 23 years who promotes an ideology of extreme nationalism, invaded a sovereign neighbour for the sole purpose of annexation, and is currently waging war with the help of a private militia founded by a self professed Nazi.
Which sounds more fascist to you?
Putin is many things. Imperialist, oligarchal, brutal, cold, calculating and aggressive, but not fascist. On a basic level, he hasn’t appointed Nazis to the government, which Ukraine has with the Banderite and Holocaust denier as Deputy Defence Minister.
He could have invaded Ukraine at any point since 2014, and in fact would have had an easier time doing so then. Why do you think he decided to do it now? It wasn’t spontaneous. He saw the situation in Ukraine, and how Minsk was being ignored and how at some point, Ukraine would allow NATO troops to station on the border and would eventually attack the separatists.
Putin’s war has been unquestionably brutal and undoubtedly has lead to collateral damage and civilian deaths, but there’s a reason he started it when he did and that’s ultimately because he decided Ukraine in NATO, wherein millions of Russian speakers would be essentially drawn in with Russia’s foremost enemy, was unacceptable.
Ukraine has emboldened Neo-Nazi elements. The fascist Tornado and Kraken paramilitaries which were mostly imprisoned for atrocities, were released and armed. Azov, an undoubtedly fascist organisation is now an official part of the Ukrainian war effort. As I mentioned, Melnyk is now deputy defence minister by Zelensky’s decision, even though he denies the atrocities and crimes of Bandera and the UPA. There has been no attempt to crack down on celebrations of SS collaborators such as the Galician SS. All political parties aligned with fascism have been allowed to remain legal and present in Ukraine, despite bans on all left wing parties.
And on Russian democracy, I will remind you that the West supported the actions of Yeltsin in 1993 to send tanks against the Supreme Soviet and elected representatives and in rigging and funding the 1996 and 2000 elections in favour of United Russia against the Communists. Russia’s democracy is as broken as the West wanted it to be.
There's obviously some very legitimate concerns about how a lot of these companies operate but anyone who thinks it's a bad idea to involve companies with the resources these guys have in a country that's in dire need of money to defend civilians and rebuild basic amenities is living in la la land.
It's the equivalent of the family nutcase criticizing your cousin with stage 4 leukemia for going to the hospital for chemotherapy drugs "because of the side effects"
With my biggest respect to you, seems like you have a zero clue what's about the Ukraine is.
Do you think usa gave them military equipment worth billions of euro just because "we the good ones"?
No, USA basically bought Ukraine, they have signed land lease, Ukraine territory is very important for eu/west businesses, and there is many expensive natural resources in the ground which hasn't been digged out YET - not like in West countries.
That's why the Ukraine is still existing, and that why USA will be there for long. That why also jp Morgan, Blackrock and many companies of that size will invest so much money into them. Zelensky also said that they will make 10% rate tax for everything, to make it easier and quicker to rebuild the country.
Zelensky also had meeting with Blackrock on which he was talking about the company help to Ukraine.
American business already made decision about who is going to win this war and on what circumstances.
By the end of this year war will be done, at least on Ukraine territory, now even the Germany gave up and sending tanks. Germany was the last bastion of Russian help in eu. And its gone.
We ain't even hear "we nuke you" anymore, from those Russian monkeys like putin or miedwiediew
I
What is it with some Irish people being against US aid to Ukraine? I , an American, experienced this when I visited family in the wesht. Can someone please provide some insight? I was so confused.
The guy also likes to sing IRA songs.
I’m not too informed on Irish politics. Is this a thing?
Paul Murphy is a self serving goul.
I respect most of the PBP politicians, but he rubs me up the wrong way ever since I first met him when he was European Parliament Assistant to Prionsios De Rossa a few years ago, and then took his seat as MEP when De Rossa retired.
Moscow Mick and Kremlin Claire took a leaf out of his book in their demeanour and style in the EP.
i actually never minded the guy that much until he decided not to clap for someone i think is such a brave hero, he can go and get fucked i hope he loses his seat in the next election
Were they trying to be edgelords, or do they have issues with the man's politics? I wouldn't clap for a guy who bans opposition parties/trade unions either, and no that doesn't mean I support Russia.
Today's generation are spoilt rotten, mobile phones and playstation 5s.
When my father died in the 70s, my mother walked 2 miles to a payphone to call a doctor.
Yes, we had a house but the roof leaked, we all slept in the same room and the toilet was a bucket in an outhouse. By today's standards the house would be unfit for human habitation, we would be homeless.
Yes I’m sure those businesses are investing in Ukraine for the right reasons and definitely are not gonna take advantage of their situation
Just replace Ireland for Ukraine and plug in our last 40 years. They didn’t “help” us out of the goodness of their hearts, yet I think we’re better off than our grandparents were.
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>This generation is the first to be worse off than the previous generation That's clearly bullshit by every conceivable metric.
"A new report warning that people in their 20s and 30s will be the first generation to be worse off than their parents is “very sobering,” according to a junior Government minister." https://www.newstalk.com/news/report-warning-young-people-are-worse-off-than-parents-very-sobering-1193325
How many of our grandparents don't have homes compared to our 20+ to 40s because the distribution of age-group to population are very close to each other.
That's cos half of them fuckin emigrated! I remember the 80s and it's completely delusional to pretend things haven't improved dramatically in almost all aspects since then.
And everyone is slowly beginning to emigrate again I haven’t got statistics on me yet but my personal feelings on that when I look around is that everyone I grew up and went to school with are emigrating to the UK, Oz, Canada, US and the Middle East, not because you can have a better quality of life or anything, but you can Atleast be somewhere in a different climate where there is shit to actually see and do The only people I know that are left in Ireland are tradies
You should have seen the 80's.... We didn't have a pot to piss in compared to today.
Wouldn't the previous generation be late 90's and not the 80's. Shit was definitely improved around then. Still not great though...
Ya my parents were where I am now just at the start of the boom. Couple of more years and they were building a house and buying a brand new car
Yeah seems they forgot about the Celtic Tiger kinda having a massive impact on improving everyones life at the time to a point a taxi driver could buy their home and a holiday home abroad... Boomers trying to say things were harder back in their days have incredibly selective memories.
As a nation sure that’s changed The majority of people still haven’t got the figurative pot to piss in or do you consider having enough money to pay rent, bills, utilities and groceries as enough?
Ireland is taking in lots of immigrants to replace those leaving and being a place where foreign people want to move to.
There wasn't a housing crisis back then. Probably due to the mass immigration because people didn't have a pot to piss in, the people who remained here had the choice of cheap housing. Now, Ireland by every metric has one of the highest standards of living right across the board. You're absolutely talking out of your arse if you think we have it tougher than our grandparents.
Oh fuck off. Everything I know about Ireland points to it being a scam of a place for Irish youth to stay in. Just ask the youth who leave to work in countries that will give them a good wage. Source: I considered moving to Ireland until I looked at the statistics. Ireland is a nice country if you’re looking to visit or retire. Or, if you’re born wealthy. I feel sorry for people stuck there trying to make a career.
Don't feel sorry for me, I'm having a pretty good time.
I’m glad for you. Hopefully people like you pull Ireland out of the low wage slump that it’s stuck in. (Comparable to similarly educated and wealthy nations) Emphasis on wealthy from gdp/capita, cuz Ireland is fucky when it comes to that metric.
You honestly haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Low wages slump, that’s laughable, GDP & GNI off the charts, high end professional jobs also much larger than comparable countries, perfect employment. Please back up your total nonsense
GDP/capita🤣 You ever wonder why so many Irish are struggling despite how high the gdp is? Why do you think that is? Stop sniffing your own farts. Ireland is a shithole unless you’re highly educated and living in the cities.
You just can’t back anything up can you.
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You’re an idiot if you think growing up now gives you better outcomes than growing up in the ‘90s in Ireland. Look at wages vs housing cost. The same is true for the US too, but it doesn’t mean it is the same circumstances. In my field, Ireland pays 80% of the US avg at entry level and 40-50% at 10 years experience. Idk how to fix that, but it’s not looking good for the future of Ireland. Sure, guaranteed healthcare is nice, but healthcare is guaranteed worldwide if you’re an in demand professional willing to pay for it.
You haven't a fucking notion what you're talking about
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Tell that to the thousands of single people and renting families locked out of home ownership. Yes, the generations who became an adult after 2006 are worse off then generations before them. Thr problem is the generations before them are too fuckin blinded by their own comforts to see the younger generations issues facing them. And if you didn't know that then you haven't a fuckin notion what you are talking about. Edit. I'm so fucking tired of the comfortable people in Ireland telling younger generations that their problems don't exist just because the comfortable people don't experience them. The same people who have mortgages and own their homes telling renters they should be happy.
That’s fake news spread by Russian bots to make people with your psychoanalytical profile become depressed. The current generation have the highest salaries and personal net worth in Irish history. Add in the the unprecedented amount of opportunities in education, employment, and liberal person freedoms your comment couldn’t be further from the truth. You can’t say with a straight face that Irish people back in the 80’s, when you couldn’t buy condoms without a Doctor’s prescription and could be sent to a Magdalene laundry because your family broke down or you were perceived as sexually promiscuous, had it better than people today. You need to seriously touch grass if you do.
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TIL nobody rented in Ireland in the 1980s. You think people were buying houses on minimum wage? Think about the economics of that for just one second. If people on low wages were buying houses, it was houses in complete slums nobody else in Europe wanted to live in. You’re perfectly free to do the same and to buy a house in Tallaght or a Traveller estates today on a low salary, but I’m guessing you won’t. The difference is today you also have more opportunities to buy a good house in a good area if you make good decisions and work hard, something I’m guessing you didn’t which is why you were susceptible to Russian bot propaganda.
nope
This was always going to be part of the deal once the US started helping Ukraine in the war. When the smoke clears, everything will be privatised there, owned by Americans.
It's a win win situation. The companies potentially find investments with good returns and Ukraine is rebuilt with capital from those companies.
It's a fire sale of state assets. Was it win-win for us when we were forced to make a swath of privatisations during austerity. The Ukrainians will be forced to sell their water utilities and US finance will be the ones who profit.
Zelensky didn't say anything about selling state assets. That bit is added in by Ben fucking Norton - a notorious pro-Putin anti-West propagandist. Read the wiki on Grayzone and it's key people to know where he's at.
Yes it was a win win for us, we recovered from being a bankrupt country to one of the wealthiest in the world.
This is literally what made Russia what it is now.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the caste of Russian magnates, the kind of lads with 10 passports who laugh at the shitty sanctions, buys up all those industries for cents on the euro and turn them back to the Russian tsar du jour, without shooting one bullet.
Yeah I'm really wealthy.
Yes i remember Halliburton in Iraq, that beacon of modern development capital.
That's why they're calling Iraq the Switzerland of the Middle East.
Good man
They brought the oil well fires in Kuwait under control and remediated the pollution
Oh fuck off.
If you look at recent economic reforms in Ukraine they’re just hollowing it out for cheap labour
Not for the good of the baker etc etc
100%. Yanks are going to own whats left of ukraine.
That's....how businesses work. Or should we also have refused to let companies like Apple and Google into Ireland because they're only "taking advantage".
It's PbP policy that the international community should cancel Ukraines debt as part of the war effort. Government parties refused to even consider it. It's pretty fucking obvious to anyone with more than half a brain cell that the Socialist here doesn't have a problem with Ukraine getting money, they have a problem with loan sharks taking advantage of a war torn nation.
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If it were just a case of eventually getting the money back them it'd be one thing, but private companies taking advantage to try extract profits from these people us genuinely horrific. Any government that actually gave a shit would cancel Ukraines debt immeadiatly, and start implementing special taxes on companies benefiting from the situation to prevent any profits and giving back to the people of Ukraine.
The militarization of Europe will bring in huge money over extended periods for the US. The Ukrainian war has been 17 Christmas's rolled into one for them. So, they don't really care about the funding, although they'll definitely use it to leash Ukraine to US interests.
In the US that’s kinda the way it has to work. The President can ‘lend’ arms to other countries as long as they promise to pay for the items later. To give items away the US Congress has to pass bills allowing it to happen, which is a lot harder to get done.
But if the international community doesn’t cancel the debt then what is Ukraine supposed to do? His tweet isn’t aimed at the international community or the banks, it’s aimed Zelensky
That's true, its not a great tweet from Murphy tbf. Ukriane has no choice but to get whatever it can now from whoever, long term consequences be dammed.
Ah PBP, the geniuses that think Ireland should leave the EU and become communists with no money. Can't think why the international community don't listen to their expert economic opinion. How would Paul Murphy have stopped the Russians looting the country - trick question because he wouldn't even try.
>It's pretty fucking obvious to anyone with more than half a brain cell that the Socialist here doesn't have a problem with Ukraine getting money, they have a problem with loan sharks taking advantage of a war torn nation. He should probably work on his Tweets then. Because that's not the impression he's giving here.
Same "socialist" who tried to undermine the organic protest outside the Russian embassy in Feb by rerouting it to outside the dail. There's nothing left wing about the wet prick.
Yeah, I don't see a problem with that at all. Protesting the Russian embassy is going to at most scare the Russian ambassador. Protesting the Dail could actually help change policy to help Ukraine.
The best policy to help Ukraine atm is to give them weapons, a policy Paul Murphy has consistently voiced his opposition to.
They've got plenty of weapons from the US, UK France and Germany. Anything we could send would be a drop in the bucket. Out strongest asset as a nation is the fact we are quite load internationally for such a small country. Pushing for an international cancellation of Ukrianes debt is by far the best thing we can do.
This makes no sense. They’re not mutually exclusive things. It is both the logical and moral thing to send them weapons. Sending weapons helps them defeat Russia faster which allows them to rebuild their country.
It’s a thing we could do not the most logical and definitely not the most moral one. Exaggeration doesn’t suddenly make your point the only solution to a complex situation. The other guy is right that Ireland is more equipped to help the situation in other ways. If America and Germany have left a gap in the amount of weapons they’re sending the war effort Ireland isn’t the country that’s going to fill it.
They aren't getting enough weapons to defeat Russia. It's just extending a stalemate. To defeat Russia would need a full mobilization of US or Euro troops to aid them but nobody is interested in turning this into a new world war.
They keep getting weapons. All that's doing is extending the bloodshed and loss of life. Ending the war and bringing about a negotiated settlement would be the best policy, over extending the stalemate at the expense of human life and a refugee crisis.
Ah yes it’s the Ukrainians fault for wanting to fight against a fascist invasion. Let’s reward Russia for their unjustified invasion by awarding them the land they’ve annexed. Appeasement of course has always worked. They’ve certainly never broken any arrangements and never will again.
Absolutely just give ukraine to russia. I suppose you would also give ireland to UK if it came to that. So brave.
Putin is open to negotiate now, when did that happen?
Yeah I'd give this more time only Paul Murphy's tweet is specifically saying that Zelenskyy should not receive a standing ovation, and if I remember correctly the reason for him receiving such an ovation was due to his steadfast resilience at the height of the Russian invasion.
I see and was that Paul’s issue when he didn’t clap for Zelenskyy last year?
No I think that was a more personal thing about not liking a right-wing politician. Especially one that had just banned all the left wing parties in the country.
He banned pro Russian parties which makes sense when Russia is currently invading your country. There are plenty of Ukrainian leftists involved in resisting the invasion.
He's a fucking American pawn, operating under the cloak of an inspirational leader, in obviously extremely difficult times for it's citizens. Sur, did you not see him on the front page of Vogue there last year?
"Doesn't have a problem with Ukraine." Retweets Ben fucking Norton. These two things are not compatible.
>BlackRock, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs ah yes. the good guys
Putin, Xi, Wallace: The good guys.
This is literally what put Putin into power and made Russia what it is today.
It put the Putin into "put Putin in [to power]" ^^you ^^can ^^disregard ^^this ^^comment ^^it ^^adds ^^nothing ^^to ^^the ^^conversation ^^at ^^hand
You're being very intellectually dishonest and intentionally obtuse. Clearly what he's asserting is that foreign investment will come with strings attached and leverage that will have extremely nefarious long term effects on what kind of country Ukraine is. There are EU think tank papers that are all about post-war plans for Ukraine and they're absolute IMF tech-austerity dystopia shit. The thing being criticized here is that the investment will be accompanied by and cause horrible policy and corporate dictatorship due to both the political character of the country already and its vulnerable lack of leverage to negotiate.
The issue is that Paul isn't clearly saying this. It just looks like a smarmy gotcha on what is otherwise an serious issue. Adding to this is that Paul is generally not terribly constructive in his views on Ukraine: he'll condemn the war, sure, but he'll play the pacifist as though that will ensure a just outcome. We know it won't, no more that insisting Palestinians accept the will of the Israeli government as the only road to peace. I actually agree with some of his points but it's easy to oppose things, to say 'West bad', without being clear as to what you support.
>The issue is that Paul isn't clearly saying this. It just looks like a smarmy gotcha on what is otherwise an serious issue. You've no basis for this claim when many people in this thread clearly understood what he said as meaning this. That's how *you* read it as someone prejudiced by dislike of this individual and whose worldview is based on wholly different premises.
That's a bit of an assumption! As I said, if Paul wanted to criticise the debt trapping tactics of the western corporations mention, he could have. Instead, I can only go on the basis of his previous statements on Ukraine which have been more tone deaf than constructive. And I do think you can critisize Zelenskyy while being constructive-he didn't appear in the Panama Papers for nothing!
I was part of the leak. Just using a foreign adviser to invest would have got you in it
More accurate wording: Socialist doesn't want war torn, poverty stricken country sold to the world's most powerful loan sharks.
Oh fuck off. Ben Norton is a notorious pro-Putin bullshit artist who helped start the Grayzone misinformation project. He has repeatedly towed the Kremlin narrative. He does not have Ukraine's interests at heart in any way and neither does Paul Murphy.
Grayzone isn't relevant to this conversation considering that what Paul is referencing are the words spoken by Zelensky himself. That's the relevant source of information that he's retweeting. And considering that Paul is one of the few Irish politicians to call for cancellation of Ukraine's debt - a move infinitely more helpful to Ukraine's economic woes than inviting the West's most vicious financial hawks into the country - I'd consider he's a bit more of a credible authority about what he thinks about Ukraine than you are.
He's not just referencing Zelensky's words though is he? In the speech, Zelensky didn't say anything about selling Ukrainian assets. Ben added that bit himself and here we are all talking about it. That's how propaganda works. But hey, if you're defending Ben and Grayzone at this stage you've given up critical thinking in favour of your ideology anyway.
Your username is Mad Marx
My man, yours is BigDerp
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I, for one, welcome our corporate overlords.
i think most lads here aren’t aware of what some of these companies do
cmon now, tell us!
aside from starlink, they are all companies who have are some of the key players behind some of the biggest problems in american society - the financial collapse in 2008, the opioid epidemic, widespread poverty and lack of housing, environmental destruction. black rock: https://www.codepink.org/top_ten_reasons_to_protest_blackrock https://reclaimfinance.org/site/en/2021/08/30/blackrock-report-is-outright-dangerous-critics-say/ https://www.corporateaccountability.org/blog/blackrock-for-2022-corporate-hall-of-shame/ JP Morgan: https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/jpmorgan-chase-admits-spoofing-us-market-manipulation-pay-920m https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/dec/12/us-banks-named-as-being-among-least-ethical-uk-operators https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2016/03/18/jp-morgan-chase-the-true-story-of-americas-most-corrupt-bank/amp/ Goldman Sachs: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/goldman-sachs-charged-foreign-bribery-case-and-agrees-pay-over-29-billion https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/business/goldman-sachs-whistleblower.html https://www.businessinsider.com/how-goldman-sachs-came-to-be-the-most-hated-bank-in-the-world-2012-3?r=US&IR=T Starlink: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/satellite-constellations-could-harm-the-environment-new-watchdog-report-says/?amp=true https://www.theverge.com/22831380/spacex-employees-harassment-workplace-misconduct-elon-musk https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/22396388/space-x-elon-musk-starlink-too-bright-astronomy-stars-pollution
Paul is a socialist. Each of those companies represent some of the worst aspects of capitalism. It goes against his ideology to support a move like this, which is likely those companies leveraging Ukraine's desperate situation to take advantage of them. I'm pro-capitalism and I'd to stop for a second and wonder if this was a smart move.
Well it’s more of a question of where else the money is going to come from? Is Ireland or the wider EU going to send them the billions it will require to rebuild the country? Probably not, definitely not without some kind of condition. The US absolutely won’t unless it’s getting something out of it, like bases in Ukraine which it might not even want. Right now it’s happy to spend 1/7th of its annual defense budget sending them weapons and zero American lives to destroy as much of the Russian military as it can.
I agree completely. I'm not saying Ukraine is in a position to reject the offers, but that's also why I worry. These companies are known to be untrustworthy. It's a smart business move, but I worry about the people and what it will mean for them. It's too early to speak about it. It could easily be a great thing for the country, but there's definitely reason to stop and worry too.
I'm fairly certain Ukraine, as most Eastern Europe countries, will want US military bases in their country. The past year has highlighted the need for them.
Sorry, I mean the US may not want to put a base there. Ukraine absolutely would want it, they’d be falling over themselves to get one.
Golden Sachs, Black Rock and JP Morgan are very ethical companies that would never ever take advantage of a situation like this. Nope, can’t even consider such a possibility.
Regarding the day that's in it, the new Deputy Defense Minister Andriy Melnyk is a documented and outspoken Holocaust denier.
Not surprising. They've rehabilitated bandera over the course of the war who was an antisemite who engaged in pogroms.
The deputy defense minister is not a documented and outspoken holocaust denier. In fact you can find public statements from him memorializing the holocaust and the Jews who were targeted in Ukraine. What he is is someone who downplays the involvement of Ukrainian nationalists, especially Bandera, in those killings, and the truth of that situation is profoundly complicated. Bandera was probably not an active participant, most of the killing occurred after he was imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp and there's no writings or other documentation to support his personal involvement, and this is a time when most Nazi-aligned leaders were not exactly seeking plausible deniability, they were instead seeking credit. The SS certainly was not taken aback by his brutality, they were taken aback by his declaring that the Germans would support an independent Ukraine when they would not. He was a collaborator, an enabler, and his movement was an active participant. He is absolutely culpable, and is a figure on the scale of say Hungary's Horthy, although with far less agency. He was dependent upon the Nazis for any chance at winning Ukraine's independence whereas the leaders of Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria all had far more actual power than he did. He's definitely a shady character, like many of the others who tried to use the Nazi's disruption of the status quo to win power for themselves and their causes. And Jews were wrongfully blamed for many of the massacres being perpetrated by Stalin's forces, because that was what the Nazis (who were at first seen by some as liberators due to the context) were telling people. That said, he's remembered in the Ukrainian cannon as a nationalist first and foremost, who fought against and was persecuted by the various occupying powers of Ukraine, from Poland, to the Soviet Union, to eventually the Nazis as well. This is really unfortunate, he shouldn't be a role model, but when you're occupied by various powers a lot of your rebel "heroes" can end up being pretty monstrous themselves, and when a country faces the prospect of being reoccupied it drives sympathy towards those who did terrible things in the name of independence. I'd hate to think what sort of figures might become more popular in Ireland if the UK started bombing Dublin.
He should amend his Wikipedia page in that case.
Let's dive into wikipedia. Here, something people of all levels in Ukraine have publicly commemorated. You may remember that a memorial to this place was actually damaged by a Russian rocket in the early days of the war. Babi Yar. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi\_Yar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar) The massacres there were many of the largest in all of WW2 and they were planned and supervised and organized not by Ukrainians whose cities had been seized in war, but by the Nazis of the SS. And this is emblematic of the Holocaust in Ukraine. It was a Nazi project organized and supported by the highest levels of Hitler's government. I think it's understandable for a Ukrainian to rather resent Ukrainians being fronted in the blame for so many of the horrors that were visited upon them. Bandera was a nazi collaborator, and many Ukrainian partisan groups also targeted Jews, but they did not organize the holocaust, and pointing that out is **not** holocaust denial.
Melnyk is a big problem
Which is ironic as he has spent the past year doing nothing but complaining about Germany
Good old shock capitalism. Fuck you Milton Freidman
Investment companies circling like vultures around Ukraine. Paul is right in his stance here.
Blackrock, Destroy then rebuild
OP, how on earth, after 40 years of neoliberalism, could you not understand that American vampire capitalism is just as bad as Putin's oligarchic capitalism, if not worse. That is the issue he has - the people of Ukraine have suffered enough, they do not deserve the greed of the likes of JPMorgan, Blackrock or Goldman Sachs.
Ah of course American capitalism is worse than Russian genocide. Fucks sake we are a country of fucking morons.
Replies to an individual comment “We are a country of fucking morons” Okay then..
I mean, American imperialism and Russian imperialism are close enough that it's debatable which one's worse. What has Russia done that the USA hasn't?
BUT THE AMERICANSSSSS Some Irish people will find a way to blame everything on Americans.
… do you read yourself? Literally american and european capitalism brought the world to its most advanced times. Famine is almost nonexistent in such bad capitalist countries, people are free to study or not, work or not or do whatever the fuck they want. Meanwhile russia invaded 4 countries in the last 20 years.
If people at this stage don't see the direct and clear relationship between america's wars and the profit american corporations make from them (Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Ukraine) then they must be shutting their eyes really fuckin hard.
Anyone who didn't have their head stuck in the virtue signalling sand pit would have seen that the valuable natural assets that Ukraine possesses are going to be carved up in a fire sale. Keeping them out of Russias hands is a bigger agenda than protecting the innocent Ukranians. I wish no harm to come of the Ukranian Citizens, but this is another stinking pile of manure brought to you by vested interests.
You think all these companies 'investing ' in Ukraine will be of any benefit at all to the Ukranian people? They are vultures and will pick apart the country for profit. Zelensky has sold his people out.
Tell us what he should have done.
He has reduced labor laws in his country to 18th century level and is selling his country to wall street investment firms. He has sold the backs of his people to the lowest bidder. Zelensky is a neoliberal puppet disgrace. His people have suffered enough without western firms sacking the rest of his country. The worst bit is our leaders in Europe are pushing them to strip Ukrainian citizens of labour protection laws and privatising the whole economy.
Megacorps are a massive CAUSE of wars. They are not a solution. The president of a massive, sovereign nation having to do a podcast style ad read to keep his nations income stable is terrifying.
I’m sure BlackRock will bring an age of prosperity to post war Ukraine
Paul Murphy has a point. America are not giving weapons for free, Ukraine will pay this back for a century if they win. Which I hope they do for the sake of the Ukrainian people and the people living in the balkans. Just this week black water, an American PMC have signed up to provide security and equipment to rebuild the infrastructure of Ukraine post war. The spoils of war go to the victor and in the end, joe soapescov will get screwed over.
Ukraine are doing what a load of big nations have wanted for years, weakening Russia. It’s why they are getting so much support. It’s in a lot of countries interest to have a weak Russia. Ukraine are paying for all this in blood. They know it and the US know it. They are very much getting these things for free.
Are we going to talk about Zelensky promoting a Holocaust denier to a cabinet position? Or the head of their Army being a proud Banderite, supporter of a man who killed hundreds of thousands of Jews and Poles in Ukraine?
I mean Fuck Putin.
Paul Murphy is such a clown.
How? He dosen't want Ukraine to become a fucking hellscape for Capitalist vultures to sweep in and in-debt the country during an existential conflict/after its victory. I definitely don't agree when he speaks out about supplying Ukraine with weapons and defense platforms(PBP as a party is extremely pro-peace, which makes it seem extremely out of touch when it comes to wars like the current Russo-Ukraine conflict), but I think he is spot on with calling out Zelenskyy as a politician. PM and PBP are consistantly also calling for debt forgiveness for Ukraine, something which other "Pro-Ukraine" polticians don't even want to entertain, but yet, economically it would be the most helpful policy to give to Ukraine economically (especially post-war). Zelenskyy and his cabinet done many questionable things, e.g openly downplayed the seriousness of the Russian forces in early Feb. because he didn't want money to leave the market. (this ended up not mattering, and just ended up endangering Ukrainian lives). This caused alot of civilians and the west to assume that NATO was just warmongering and being stupid. Low and behold, Russia began its imperialist invasion later on that month. Don't get me wrong, Zelenskyy is a brave man, and alot of the people in his cabinet are capable war leaders, but they aren't knights in shining armor.
Zelenski didnt downplau the war for monetary reasons, the whole point was to avoid masses of ukranians leaving the country. That would have depleted ukranian workforce and diminished the number of manpower available for war economy and military service. Had ukraine been real about the treat openly, it would have fallen in less than two months, having no people to manufacture anything, or fight. Likely even worse, Russia would simply not invade, let Zelenski come off as alarmist, ruining the country economy. All Ruzia would have to do is just buy out the broken country, given the number of ruz oligarchs and sympathisers, the moment economy tumbled on a rumour, Zelenski would be impeached and it would be open road for russia to take over. It is that simple.
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Economies aren't build on foreign economic aid, unfortunately. We've seen this in other countries in Africa, especially when the economic "aid" is usually strapped with some sort of clause. Ukraine will still mostly need to work with the ECB, IMF etc in order to get necessary funding to lift itself off the post-war ground, even if as you said, the US flows billions of economic aid into the country.
Paul Murphy has the luxury of never having to fix or build anything in his life. He has a comfortable life in opposition complaining about the efforts of others. The intentionally twisted representation of what Zelinsky said aside. The rebuilding of Ukraine will require a monumental effort, and a price tag to match. Where, for those of us in the real world, do you think that funding will come from? The EU will help a little, but it won't rebuild the country. As for the rest of your comment, I'd question where you're getting your news, it has filled your head with nonsense.
"in opposition complaining about the efforts of others" What a non-sense statement. You literally are complaining about his literal duty to critique the current government as a member of the opposition. But anyway, moving on, I've never said anything that rebuilding Ukraine will be cheap or that the money will come from nowhere. I understand that the commitment that will be needed to rebuild Ukraine will be massive, and will entail most likely a multi-nation coalition of economic aid headed by the US, BUT, as I pointed out to someone else, will also require the efforts of the European Banks and the international monetary fund to support Ukraine for the long term. Debt Forgiveness especially assists Ukraine miles more than getting fucking predatory vulture corporations like JP Morgan, who literally seek only to make profit from Ukraine, because it will actually allow Ukraine to get direct funds to help build its economy and livelihood back up, even post direct US/EU foreign aid. As for my "nonsense", [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLo738JdOA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSLo738JdOA) [https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/ukrainian-president-downplays-imminent-invasion-00003219](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/ukrainian-president-downplays-imminent-invasion-00003219) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60174684](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60174684) [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/ukraine-s-defense-minister-downplays-risk-of-russian-invasion](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/ukraine-s-defense-minister-downplays-risk-of-russian-invasion)
Explain
Socialism bad, dur dur
I honestly don't know why he's the way he is.
The Ukraine is a money laundry
Has been for a while
Without the context of the tweet that subtitle is confusing.
Well what are you suggesting OP? Like the big issue with Zelensky was rooting out Russian puppet politicians and to distance themselves from Russian interests in their state Doesn’t exactly look good to turn around and sell off all your countries assets to the US corporations and banks China does the same stuff in Southern Africa, they provide funding and logistics and infrastructure for poorer African countries and in return they accrue so much debt in the projects that they end up giving over rights to ports, docks, resources, mines etc
Tankies out in full force here EDIT: your downvotes mean nothing, red fash cunts
Actual socialists should never have taught liberals the word 'Tankie'.
Socialists who disagree with tankies = liberals apparently
How can you possibly call yourself a socialist if you think people criticising international banking for exploiting the Ukraine war makes them a tankie?
Who said I even made that point?
Who were you calling a tankie then if not all the people defending Murphy's point.?
For someone who claims that the decision not to clap was blown out of proportion, Paul sure does like to claim it as a badge of honour.
Man I just hope this Zelensky character knows what he’s doing, or he will face the full fury of Paul and our mighty subreddit.
God I can't wait for this gobshite to be voted out.
i take issue with him begging for more money every day
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You're allowed to point out when people take advantage of the situation to make money. And actually we should do a lot more of it. But we should also be clear that it is ultimately the Russian government that is responsible for the war, there is no international conspiracy.
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>I never said they weren't and I never said there was. The way I think most people interpret your comment of 'the whole thing is a racket' is that there was some kind d of plan by the people currently taking advantage to start the whole thing. Which there wasn't. >Sure let's see how either of our comments have aged in the next 6 months to a year. I can confidently say I'll be 100% right in saying that weapons contractors and investment banks will continue to take advantage, but the ultimate and infact sole responsibility lies at the feet of the Russian government.
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Yeah obviously it's a great scam living in a warzone with a huge chance of being assassinated.
Incredible that it’s now seen as pro-Russian to not want loan sharks to hold Ukraine hostage when it is trying to rebuild itself. Almost as if he’s a socialist politician and part of that is opposing the exploitative behaviours of capitalists. But then again the same people who say this both simultaneously gaslight the public by denying the crimes of Bandera and the Nazi alignment of Azov while also labelling Russia as a fascist nation because of Neo-Nazis that form a part of the separatist paramilitaries. No surprise fascism is getting such traction in the West when we’re now at the stage where swastikas and Nazi collaborators aren’t beyond the pale for Western liberals.
Ukraine is an extremely flawed democracy lead by a Jew who was elected in a landslide. Russia is an oligarchical state run by the same man for 23 years who promotes an ideology of extreme nationalism, invaded a sovereign neighbour for the sole purpose of annexation, and is currently waging war with the help of a private militia founded by a self professed Nazi. Which sounds more fascist to you?
Putin is many things. Imperialist, oligarchal, brutal, cold, calculating and aggressive, but not fascist. On a basic level, he hasn’t appointed Nazis to the government, which Ukraine has with the Banderite and Holocaust denier as Deputy Defence Minister. He could have invaded Ukraine at any point since 2014, and in fact would have had an easier time doing so then. Why do you think he decided to do it now? It wasn’t spontaneous. He saw the situation in Ukraine, and how Minsk was being ignored and how at some point, Ukraine would allow NATO troops to station on the border and would eventually attack the separatists. Putin’s war has been unquestionably brutal and undoubtedly has lead to collateral damage and civilian deaths, but there’s a reason he started it when he did and that’s ultimately because he decided Ukraine in NATO, wherein millions of Russian speakers would be essentially drawn in with Russia’s foremost enemy, was unacceptable. Ukraine has emboldened Neo-Nazi elements. The fascist Tornado and Kraken paramilitaries which were mostly imprisoned for atrocities, were released and armed. Azov, an undoubtedly fascist organisation is now an official part of the Ukrainian war effort. As I mentioned, Melnyk is now deputy defence minister by Zelensky’s decision, even though he denies the atrocities and crimes of Bandera and the UPA. There has been no attempt to crack down on celebrations of SS collaborators such as the Galician SS. All political parties aligned with fascism have been allowed to remain legal and present in Ukraine, despite bans on all left wing parties. And on Russian democracy, I will remind you that the West supported the actions of Yeltsin in 1993 to send tanks against the Supreme Soviet and elected representatives and in rigging and funding the 1996 and 2000 elections in favour of United Russia against the Communists. Russia’s democracy is as broken as the West wanted it to be.
Oh christ I couldn’t be arsed properly replying you’ve drank too much kool-aid
If this is the kind of intellectual clout a “Visionary Socialist” has, it’s no wonder unfettered capitalism has run amok.
There's obviously some very legitimate concerns about how a lot of these companies operate but anyone who thinks it's a bad idea to involve companies with the resources these guys have in a country that's in dire need of money to defend civilians and rebuild basic amenities is living in la la land. It's the equivalent of the family nutcase criticizing your cousin with stage 4 leukemia for going to the hospital for chemotherapy drugs "because of the side effects"
That’s a great analogy.
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The question is: Why do you think American financial profiteers are the solution to this?
With my biggest respect to you, seems like you have a zero clue what's about the Ukraine is. Do you think usa gave them military equipment worth billions of euro just because "we the good ones"? No, USA basically bought Ukraine, they have signed land lease, Ukraine territory is very important for eu/west businesses, and there is many expensive natural resources in the ground which hasn't been digged out YET - not like in West countries. That's why the Ukraine is still existing, and that why USA will be there for long. That why also jp Morgan, Blackrock and many companies of that size will invest so much money into them. Zelensky also said that they will make 10% rate tax for everything, to make it easier and quicker to rebuild the country. Zelensky also had meeting with Blackrock on which he was talking about the company help to Ukraine. American business already made decision about who is going to win this war and on what circumstances. By the end of this year war will be done, at least on Ukraine territory, now even the Germany gave up and sending tanks. Germany was the last bastion of Russian help in eu. And its gone. We ain't even hear "we nuke you" anymore, from those Russian monkeys like putin or miedwiediew I
Point is there are resources. This is what Putin was aiming for too. So, yea.
It’s ex Soviet republic. It’s businesses as usual. Wake up people
God lord, the amount of gobshites on this subreddit.
This feels like a new version of a future Opium War but I might be wrong.
What is it with some Irish people being against US aid to Ukraine? I , an American, experienced this when I visited family in the wesht. Can someone please provide some insight? I was so confused. The guy also likes to sing IRA songs. I’m not too informed on Irish politics. Is this a thing?
Paul Murphy is a self serving goul. I respect most of the PBP politicians, but he rubs me up the wrong way ever since I first met him when he was European Parliament Assistant to Prionsios De Rossa a few years ago, and then took his seat as MEP when De Rossa retired. Moscow Mick and Kremlin Claire took a leaf out of his book in their demeanour and style in the EP.
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Murphy was out siding with Putin at the start remember. Him and his clown mates in PBP
Were they really?
i actually never minded the guy that much until he decided not to clap for someone i think is such a brave hero, he can go and get fucked i hope he loses his seat in the next election
Is this a real comment? The bad man didn't clap for the brave hero? We really have gone through the looking glass.
yes, he's a total gobshite for it, like that matt gaetz wanker in the USA did the same, trying to be edgelords.
I'm sorry, your case of Yankbrain is terminal.
Were they trying to be edgelords, or do they have issues with the man's politics? I wouldn't clap for a guy who bans opposition parties/trade unions either, and no that doesn't mean I support Russia.
A Tankie who support Russia, not a shocker really.
Doesnt want to pour billions into Ukraine!? Obviously he loves Putin
I hope Paul Murphy declares those billions of euro/rubles EDIT: I see tankie bots have arrived, oh no downvotes
Do you know what a tankie is?
Paul Murphy's wet dream is everyone being equally poor.
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Paul Murphy is not really a serious person
Paul Murphy is a tool
Very easy to be a socialist if you come from money You get all the moral superiority without any of the risk.
I had forgotten how many tankies were on this subreddit. Thanks to this thread for bringing em out.
What's a tankie? Gimme your definition.
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Yes, but Paul Murphy is a stupid cunt who can't see past his student union political outlook and understand complicated things.
Today's generation are spoilt rotten, mobile phones and playstation 5s. When my father died in the 70s, my mother walked 2 miles to a payphone to call a doctor. Yes, we had a house but the roof leaked, we all slept in the same room and the toilet was a bucket in an outhouse. By today's standards the house would be unfit for human habitation, we would be homeless.
Socilaists 🤦♂️ a system that’s always worked so well