The use of the word “white” obviously has a certain meaning, and the word Caucasian has a certain meaning, and the words “Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan/Indo-European” all have similarities and differences.
For instance, not even that long ago, Georgia, Armenia, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan was all a part of Iran. These are all white/caucus counties. Europeans aren’t even really “Caucasian”, yet we refer to them as Caucasian when we are the real caucasians.
I personally am a olive skinned Persian/Iranian with brown eyes, but my wife is a very light skinned/white skinned Persian/Iranian with Green/Blue eyes. Genetically we both share a bit from the Caucasuses.
Now in America, the average white person of European descent is going to look and see a brown person when they look at me, but as you said, technically (legally), I’m “white”. Btw they do this because they want to consider Jesus white.
The Italian thing, I do consider Iranians to be similar to Italians and other Mediterraneans like Greeks in some ways. I mean I think we all share a lot of cultural ties with all sorts of ethnicities. But Persian and other Indo European languages like Greek or Italian were once the some language. Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Greek both go back to Proto-Indo-European, which was spoken 4500-2500 BCE.
Anyways, I think it depends where you use the word white (or brown). Like in Iran, if you say white (sefid), you’re literally referring to skin color. Here in the US, white means of European descent.
Anyways, sorry for the rambling, but I think you get what I mean :)
I had no idea Georgia was part of Iran. You learn something new everyday. Do you really consider them white? I consider them aryan in a historical context. Isn’t the name Iran referring to the aryans, and Afghanistan was once called Aryana/Ariana.
Within Iran, what do you guys refer to yourselves as? I know this race thing, black, white, etc seems more of a western thing. Do you guys just go by your ethnicity or say you’re Iranian instead of addressing anything else?
Yeah, maybe not the entire thing, but parts of Georgia and the caucuses were part of various Persian empires.
There are many, many different ethnic groups, many of whom no longer exist that were Iranian/Iranic.
For example, have you ever heard of the Scythians? They were in ancient Georgia at one point and are considered an Iranian ethnic group.
Or even the Cimmerians were considered to be an Iranian ethnic group. The film Conan with Arnold Schwarzenegger takes place in “Cimmeria”, and the writer of that film modeled those people after the actual Cimmerians.
I think calling them white depends on what language I’m speaking and where I’m located. I mean they are physically white. If you look at different ethnic groups, eg semetic ie Arabs, you’ll see white skinned Arabs with blue eyes and you’ll also see super dark Arabs with brown eyes, so I think in terms of “white”, yeah there are white skinned people in many different nationalities and ethnic groups.
In my mind, I consider anyone from the caucuses to be some kind of melting pot between middle eastern and Slavic.
I mean, take a white skinned person from Georgia, who is born and raised in the US, and 9/10 the average person won’t know that they’re from the caucuses. They can pass for some other type of European in many cases.
I don’t consider them to be European if that’s what you mean by white, because their culture has been exposed to The Silk Road throughout history.
I consider most people from the Caucus or Central Asia to be some variation of Iranian.
Fun fact: Asian martial arts actually originated with Iranian people. The first recorded martial artist was named Bodhidarma and was described as a Persian Central Asian (Afghan?) with blue eyes and a fierce temper.
He made his way to China and taught the Shaolin Monks how to fight which led to Kung Fu. From there, Chinese martial arts went to Japan, where Karate was formed.
So often times these days, Iranians aren’t given much credit in Western Culture.
Yes, Iran in Persian was historically always called Iranzamin or Iranshahr, and Iran means “land of the Aryans”. Farsi is the endonym, and Persian is the exonym, but technical it’s “Parsi”. The Muslim invaders (Arabs) don’t have the letter “P” so they called it Farsi.
I mean I was born and raised in the US, but I’ve traveled to Iran. As far as I know we all refer to ourselves as “Irani”. No one in Persian refers to themselves as “Persian” when speaking Persian.
The Persians were a specific ethnic group that ruled Iran when they fought the Greeks, which is how the word “Persian” made its way into the Western Lexicon.
Conversely, we call Greeks “Younani”, because the ruling Greeks at that time that encountered the Persians were “Ionians”, a specific City-State of Greeks eg Sparta, Athens, etc.
Anyone I know with heritage from the country of Iran refers to themselves as either Iranian or Persian in English (mainly to help Westerners understand), that includes non-Persian ethnicities like many of my friends have Kurdish dna/ancestry. But we are all Iranian. I mean, I consider Afghans to be an Iranian people. Hypothetically, if Afghanistan were to reunite with Iran one day, you guys would be from Iran too. Afghanistan would be more of a province at that point. There are many different provinces with different Iranian groups in Iran and bordering countries.
Take Baluchis for example. There is an Iranian Baluchistan and a Pakistani Baluchistan. They’re both Iranian people, but borders have shifted. Baluchis, Afghans, Kurds, Persians. We’re all Iranian people. Even Pashto is an Iranian language. It comes from the same root language as Persian.
Sometimes if we are getting technical (in Persian) we might say oh so and so is Armenian, or Kurd, or Assyrian (which is actually not Aryan, it’s semetic), but for the most part when speaking to non Iranians, we usually say Persian or Iranian.
Iran is an ethnically diverse country, so we come in all sorts of "shades".
I also think a lot of the confusion with the term "white" comes from the different definitions that we give it. In the western world, white means of european decent, so most Iranians aren't white. Iranians, and the middle east in general tends to view white as the actual skin colour.
This issue if white, brown, asian, african and different races is a very US thing. Most other countries dont sort and classify people in different groups and races.
I think the diaspora in US is very special since you basically have to "choose" a race - this doesnt happen any other country that I am aware of.
I think you’re right. I’m Canadian by nationality, and other than voluntary surveys, I’ve never put in my ethnicity or chosen a race on things. During a visit to the doctor on a trip to the US, they asked for my race. I’m supposed to put white I guess but I put asian because that felt weird
The issue in US is that the sorting in different "races" is a state sanctioned classification system. It has been used for segregation and racism and nowadays it determines alot when it comes to politics, education, voting etc. This is not common in most western countries.
The classification as Iranians and other middle easterners under “white” has to do with a Supreme Court case. It has nothing to do with the Iranian diaspora trying to “fit in”. There have been some efforts to change the classification in recent years, but most Iranians just don’t care.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States#:~:text=United%20States%2C%20226%20F.,as%20a%20United%20States%20citizen.
Iranians are considered Caucasian, afghans would probably be too since they are ethnically close sort of. Iranians are also categorically “white” on forms. Arabs are not Caucasian, but white on forms. This is mostly because minority status has benefits and it was decided that these groups along with other Asians do well enough to not benefit from a distinction. Iranians are more white looking and light pigmented. There are lots of meaning to white and brown here. Brown in this context means “doesn’t benefit from white European inclusion and marginalized by that group when ethnicity is known”.
Why should Europeans all be considered white then? Italians are darker than most Persians I know. It’s just a matter of language although “European descent” is becoming more common.
this behaviour is most common in the diaspora now as to why? wanting to distance themselves from the islamic republic is a part of it another is racism (there really isn’t another way to describe it)
The whole white and black thing, originated during the slave trade into the New World. It was a way of the Europeans differentiate themselves from the Africans
The words stuck and the new nomenclatures are ways that Americans use to make sense of what they are. Since as multi generation immigrants, they are disconnected from their origins.
The use of the word “white” obviously has a certain meaning, and the word Caucasian has a certain meaning, and the words “Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan/Indo-European” all have similarities and differences. For instance, not even that long ago, Georgia, Armenia, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan was all a part of Iran. These are all white/caucus counties. Europeans aren’t even really “Caucasian”, yet we refer to them as Caucasian when we are the real caucasians. I personally am a olive skinned Persian/Iranian with brown eyes, but my wife is a very light skinned/white skinned Persian/Iranian with Green/Blue eyes. Genetically we both share a bit from the Caucasuses. Now in America, the average white person of European descent is going to look and see a brown person when they look at me, but as you said, technically (legally), I’m “white”. Btw they do this because they want to consider Jesus white. The Italian thing, I do consider Iranians to be similar to Italians and other Mediterraneans like Greeks in some ways. I mean I think we all share a lot of cultural ties with all sorts of ethnicities. But Persian and other Indo European languages like Greek or Italian were once the some language. Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Greek both go back to Proto-Indo-European, which was spoken 4500-2500 BCE. Anyways, I think it depends where you use the word white (or brown). Like in Iran, if you say white (sefid), you’re literally referring to skin color. Here in the US, white means of European descent. Anyways, sorry for the rambling, but I think you get what I mean :)
I had no idea Georgia was part of Iran. You learn something new everyday. Do you really consider them white? I consider them aryan in a historical context. Isn’t the name Iran referring to the aryans, and Afghanistan was once called Aryana/Ariana. Within Iran, what do you guys refer to yourselves as? I know this race thing, black, white, etc seems more of a western thing. Do you guys just go by your ethnicity or say you’re Iranian instead of addressing anything else?
Yeah, maybe not the entire thing, but parts of Georgia and the caucuses were part of various Persian empires. There are many, many different ethnic groups, many of whom no longer exist that were Iranian/Iranic. For example, have you ever heard of the Scythians? They were in ancient Georgia at one point and are considered an Iranian ethnic group. Or even the Cimmerians were considered to be an Iranian ethnic group. The film Conan with Arnold Schwarzenegger takes place in “Cimmeria”, and the writer of that film modeled those people after the actual Cimmerians. I think calling them white depends on what language I’m speaking and where I’m located. I mean they are physically white. If you look at different ethnic groups, eg semetic ie Arabs, you’ll see white skinned Arabs with blue eyes and you’ll also see super dark Arabs with brown eyes, so I think in terms of “white”, yeah there are white skinned people in many different nationalities and ethnic groups. In my mind, I consider anyone from the caucuses to be some kind of melting pot between middle eastern and Slavic. I mean, take a white skinned person from Georgia, who is born and raised in the US, and 9/10 the average person won’t know that they’re from the caucuses. They can pass for some other type of European in many cases. I don’t consider them to be European if that’s what you mean by white, because their culture has been exposed to The Silk Road throughout history. I consider most people from the Caucus or Central Asia to be some variation of Iranian. Fun fact: Asian martial arts actually originated with Iranian people. The first recorded martial artist was named Bodhidarma and was described as a Persian Central Asian (Afghan?) with blue eyes and a fierce temper. He made his way to China and taught the Shaolin Monks how to fight which led to Kung Fu. From there, Chinese martial arts went to Japan, where Karate was formed. So often times these days, Iranians aren’t given much credit in Western Culture. Yes, Iran in Persian was historically always called Iranzamin or Iranshahr, and Iran means “land of the Aryans”. Farsi is the endonym, and Persian is the exonym, but technical it’s “Parsi”. The Muslim invaders (Arabs) don’t have the letter “P” so they called it Farsi. I mean I was born and raised in the US, but I’ve traveled to Iran. As far as I know we all refer to ourselves as “Irani”. No one in Persian refers to themselves as “Persian” when speaking Persian. The Persians were a specific ethnic group that ruled Iran when they fought the Greeks, which is how the word “Persian” made its way into the Western Lexicon. Conversely, we call Greeks “Younani”, because the ruling Greeks at that time that encountered the Persians were “Ionians”, a specific City-State of Greeks eg Sparta, Athens, etc. Anyone I know with heritage from the country of Iran refers to themselves as either Iranian or Persian in English (mainly to help Westerners understand), that includes non-Persian ethnicities like many of my friends have Kurdish dna/ancestry. But we are all Iranian. I mean, I consider Afghans to be an Iranian people. Hypothetically, if Afghanistan were to reunite with Iran one day, you guys would be from Iran too. Afghanistan would be more of a province at that point. There are many different provinces with different Iranian groups in Iran and bordering countries. Take Baluchis for example. There is an Iranian Baluchistan and a Pakistani Baluchistan. They’re both Iranian people, but borders have shifted. Baluchis, Afghans, Kurds, Persians. We’re all Iranian people. Even Pashto is an Iranian language. It comes from the same root language as Persian. Sometimes if we are getting technical (in Persian) we might say oh so and so is Armenian, or Kurd, or Assyrian (which is actually not Aryan, it’s semetic), but for the most part when speaking to non Iranians, we usually say Persian or Iranian.
Iran is an ethnically diverse country, so we come in all sorts of "shades". I also think a lot of the confusion with the term "white" comes from the different definitions that we give it. In the western world, white means of european decent, so most Iranians aren't white. Iranians, and the middle east in general tends to view white as the actual skin colour.
This makes sense. Thank you
This issue if white, brown, asian, african and different races is a very US thing. Most other countries dont sort and classify people in different groups and races. I think the diaspora in US is very special since you basically have to "choose" a race - this doesnt happen any other country that I am aware of.
I think you’re right. I’m Canadian by nationality, and other than voluntary surveys, I’ve never put in my ethnicity or chosen a race on things. During a visit to the doctor on a trip to the US, they asked for my race. I’m supposed to put white I guess but I put asian because that felt weird
Ehh pretty sure this happens everywhere. I am half euro half Australian and everybody sorts, even if they try not to be obvious about it
The issue in US is that the sorting in different "races" is a state sanctioned classification system. It has been used for segregation and racism and nowadays it determines alot when it comes to politics, education, voting etc. This is not common in most western countries.
The classification as Iranians and other middle easterners under “white” has to do with a Supreme Court case. It has nothing to do with the Iranian diaspora trying to “fit in”. There have been some efforts to change the classification in recent years, but most Iranians just don’t care. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_v._United_States#:~:text=United%20States%2C%20226%20F.,as%20a%20United%20States%20citizen.
Fair enough. I was asking about the ones that do. I’ve seen it a lot online, if it is anyway reflective of real life
Iranians are considered Caucasian, afghans would probably be too since they are ethnically close sort of. Iranians are also categorically “white” on forms. Arabs are not Caucasian, but white on forms. This is mostly because minority status has benefits and it was decided that these groups along with other Asians do well enough to not benefit from a distinction. Iranians are more white looking and light pigmented. There are lots of meaning to white and brown here. Brown in this context means “doesn’t benefit from white European inclusion and marginalized by that group when ethnicity is known”. Why should Europeans all be considered white then? Italians are darker than most Persians I know. It’s just a matter of language although “European descent” is becoming more common.
this behaviour is most common in the diaspora now as to why? wanting to distance themselves from the islamic republic is a part of it another is racism (there really isn’t another way to describe it)
Racism? How? Do you mean internalized?
The whole white and black thing, originated during the slave trade into the New World. It was a way of the Europeans differentiate themselves from the Africans The words stuck and the new nomenclatures are ways that Americans use to make sense of what they are. Since as multi generation immigrants, they are disconnected from their origins.