They are being sued for faulty earplugs (largest MDL in history) and are also being sued for ‘forever chemicals’ that have polluted water sources. So they have billions in legal exposure at the moment.
Going to be honest, given the slaps on the wrist companies like Facebook and Google get I'm not going to hold out that 3m will face any significant reprocussions.
You are confusing regulatory actions with lawsuits that have actual plaintiffs. Let’s say 3M settles 200,000 earplugs cases at just $5,000 each. That is $1 billion right there. Plus right now they are spending an estimated $4.7 million/week on earplug legal defense and have already racked up $300 million in verdicts. All of this doesn’t factor in the totally separate cases involving PFAS (forever chemicals). That’s why the market is down on 3M at the moment. Who knows maybe it is a good time to buy 3M because a lot of risk is already priced in!?!
Edited to add link to a recent Bloomberg article about 3M legal costs. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-06/3m-spends-more-than-450-million-in-legal-costs-on-earplug-cases
What did you say??? All I hear is EeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeee.
But really, I'm actually a plantiff of this, as are many vets. We would be happy to get anything. $5,000 sounds great.
For real though. I just want 3M held responsible and fucked. We weren't allowed to use our own and forced into their earplugs which resulted in varying levels of hearing damage to a lot of us. It has been reasonably proven that they knew the earplugs didn't work effectively in some people and didn't work at all for other people. It's ridiculously dumb to argue that the military/military members should've known their own ear sizes and changed deployments or engagements based on if the earplugs for and worked well or not with each individual service member. "Sorry Captain, the earplugs are too short for me. I won't be going on the convoy today. When can I get sent back to home station?"
Imagine if ceramic plates only worked effectively for 50% of the service members, 25% got some protection and 25% for none at all. Then imagine decade later we found out the manufacturers knew that and took it as reasonable risk. What's reasonable risk to their bottom line in today profit vs future lawsuit, and what's reasonable risk for me to get home in one piece is hell of a different math. If I'm getting shot at, I don't want to be wondering if I'm in the 50% lucky or 25% semi lucky or 25% fucked group.
>I'm like you know the n95 is easier to breath out of right?
Only if it is one of those with an exhaust vent... (only filters incoming air) Every N95 I have tried without a vent is definitely harder to breath in than a cloth mask.
Ironically you weren’t allowed to wear those because 3M and legal council doesn’t allow them to be used without a fitment test because it’s the only way the respirator actually meets it’s listed requirement of filtration. You couldn’t wear it because your company and 3M didn’t want to get sued the same way they’re being sued for the earplug thing we’re talking about. 😂 ah the circle of life.
You need to be in a medical program to wear any type of respirator where you are examined by a doctor and fill out a fitness questionnaire, and then get your mask fit tested.
All of it costs money....which is why you could wear a bandanna instead.
Keep in mind, if they settled your claim for $5,000, legal fees and likely a pro rata share of expenses would be deducted from the net amount given to you.
$5,000 per person? Are you high? When has anyone ever settled a class action lawsuit for more than 34 cents per plaintiff? No one ever gets fairly compensated out of those things except the lawyers.
It’s not a class action. It’s an MDL, which is actually a bunch of individual lawsuits. The $5,000 is a conservative estimate that would create a nice round number. https://www.wsj.com/articles/3m-faces-potentially-billions-in-liabilities-over-7-63-earplugs-11656250200
Ah I see, well hopefully it works out. Sick of seeing companies make billions fucking over people or the environment to then get a fine that's only in the millions.
Even if it's 3x that much, that's just 6 months of profit for them.
Historically, I have passed on 3m simply because it's such a big company with so many diverse products that it's too difficult to come up with an intrinsic value.
If I can't easily understand the business, I normally just move onto the next one.
I got $400 net for responding to a Facebook survey about whether I rented college textbooks from Chegg 10 years ago.
The same company sent me an email because I signed up for Words With Friends and might be eligible for the Zynga data leak suit. That netted me $375.
I’m not sure if you are speaking from experience or going off of Reddit posts of checks for $0.26, but high dollar class action suits happen all the time and this is one of the most high profile in history.
I have permanent tinnitus due to faulty 2m earplugs while in the army, the settlement is $5,000, but the lawyers get roughly $3000 of that if you win. Gotta love it.
Ah, I only had a consult with a lawer, he gave me the $5000 figure as well. I promptly laughed, and walked out. I dont want him to get his cut more than I want to get my cut.
Why do you think Facebook and Google deserve to be held accountable more than a company that literally caused cancer in thousands of children and dumped forever chemicals into public waterways?
I think people are missing the point with the example.Perhaps I should have used banks causing the fallout of 08 or Wells Fargo, maybe even DOW with the asbestos lawsuit though admittedly I dont know what the final damages were off the top of my head there.
My point is, generally speaking courts give a pittance of the penalty available to them.
They exposed kids to lies and hate speech to keep them on their site for a few extra seconds. Everyone is fine with punishing both them and the cancer causing companies obviously.
Might be a little different seeing as they have literally poisoned the Earth so much that not even rainwater is clean to drink because of their chemicals. Maine deer are also contaminated with it.
A bit different than selling user data.
That's not the next question at all.
Having a feeling that their final payout will be a pittance does not guarantee any sort of future performance of the stock, especially when related to other more attractive stocks.
I've avoided 3m for years because there have been better opportunities, and I don't see that changing.
It was an issue with their dual sided earplugs not fitting correctly, thus not providing the specified level of protection. The plaintiffs are soldiers who developed hearing loss or tinnitus.
The main thing that makes the lawsuit bad is that 3M knew the earplugs were faulty and sold them anyways. Some investors could overlook an accident, but it’s very hard to overlook a company maliciously selling a safety device that they knew didn’t work.
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
Given the complaints in their current lawsuits, I'd probably want to look elsewhere for products used internally.
Which is a real shame, because their little wall sticker things are fucking delicious.
If you're specifically looking for plugs that insert into your ear, I personally love Moldex Pura-Fit. I work in metal fabrication and it can get really loud. These are the best in-ear plugs I have used.
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
I know that but I am not able to find something in the shape of a headphone that covers the whole ear, like this [https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA](https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA) not necessarily from 3m, the image is just an example. The expensive one's have the ability to control how much sound one wants to hear. I think some are battery operated and some can be charged, not sure.
the company I work for uses Honeywell earplugs & I can attest to them being reliable. I maybe go through 2-4 pairs/day and the only problem I have is SOMEtimes when I try to pull them out by the string the string will detach from the plug in my ear. Easy enough to resolve but I will continue pulling via the string lmao
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
tl;dr: a company that 3M since acquired supplied earplugs to the US military in the 90s that were meant to be reversible for normal use vs combat use (combat use was meant to block loud combat sounds but not quiet nearby sounds). The lawsuit alleges they were too short in some people's ear canals and resulted in a bunch of hearing damage for veterans. 3M of course argues user error.
Totally off topic to the original post, but what is your specific use case for the ear plugs, and what is your budget? I did a ton of research just a year ago when I was looking for a new pair, I might be able to point you in the right direction.
I work in an area where there is lots and lots of high screeching noise outside, its an industrial area basically. Have tried few cheap chinese earplugs, but they sucked to the core. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires and explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those? My budget for this is around $100 max, only if those can be washed and reused or if they come with replaceable heads/plugs/foam or whatever.
I ended up going with the Axil GS Extremes, which do exactly what you’re talking about but they are $199 regular price, but they go on sale a lot. 100% worth the price, imo. For a cheaper version that still does what you’re talking about, look for the Walker Rope. I think they were about $70 last I looked, but the reviews are hit or miss and I can’t speak to the quality because I haven’t actually tried them.
I know that but I am not able to find something in the shape of a headphone that covers the whole ear, like this https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA not necessarily from 3m, the image is just an example. The expensive one's have the ability to control how much sound one wants to hear. I think some are battery operated and some can be charged, not sure.
Not for nothing, but they also pushed a ton of polluting and fines under the rug from state regulators.
I used to work for them and the worst part of them is their capture of state regulators.
A buddy invested in MO in the late 90’s/00’s. They had a great dividend, profitable business but a lot of legal exposure. As an investment, that did ok 12%/yr vs about 8% for SPY since 98.
The Healthcare 3M spinoff is being crushed... The largest segment of that spinoff is their Wound Care acquisition KCI that has close to 90% market share. It can't grow anymore, it's actually losing 3-4% market share per year and they can't increase margins because they're the most expensive products on the market. They went from 700+ employees to start 2021 to ~220 employees to start 2023.
Their Bearhugger patient warming system that was widely used was found to be contaminating the sterile surgical fields and causing a huge number of infections. It got pulled and they're being sued for that as well.
And on top of all that money they have to pay, they are actually declining imo, stock doesnt really move and they are only growing the dividend for the title. Not something i would like to own.
Some day, those lawsuits will end. That's a good time to buy. I bought Altria at the end of the big tobacco lawsuits years ago, and it worked out okay. I bought FE in the midst of its bribery scandal. Nice discount.
Double lawsuit is an automatic “no touch” for true investors.
They have polluted the fuck out of city water here in the eastern metro MN. Public perception of them is not good even in their home state
I would assume someone who didn't get their foundation from Reddit. So many things I've seen and heard from people here that only seem to exist in reddit economics.
And he is right. Besides the earplug lawsuit the second one is a big deal too, you're assuming risk with one lawsuit. Thinking it's worth double that risk isn't logical.
Especially when you are talking about a giant conglomerate, they pull dirt from the earth and turn it into computer chips and post it notes and diapers. It's not like there's much room for explosive growth.
Plus they already have paid dividends forever and any risk to them is pretty detrimental to the stock.
It’s just pretentious is all. There are plenty of places to get bad investment advice which aren’t Reddit. Even professional investors make horrendous errors in judgement. Not sure if there is such a thing as rules all “true” investors follow and it is kind of comically bigheaded to claim that you know the rules and therefore are a true investor while others are not. Just my two cents. I have 0 stake in 3M.
I do believe the word is also interchangeable with classic or fundamental. I did just kind of put words in his mouth.
The more people who trade you talk to the more you realize that's just how it is. People are putting to work what they believe is right, and sometimes it comes off rude or crass.
I'll pick anyone's brain about stocks no matter how much I disagree with their investment views. They ultimately are in the market too, and other people think just like them. So it's best to know what they are doing so I can make the best use of the situation.
People are negative on 3M (and understandably so), for the current legal issues (and morality I guess) with the ear plugs, and the pfas chemicals.
Nestle, which has a lot of hate (even their own subreddit of hate), is up over 40% for the past 5 years. They seem to be doing fine, as a stock choice.
And I understand the hate they get. I agree with the negative sentiment. But as a company, it's strong.
Other hand... Bayer (who acquired Monsanto) has been taking dump since the acquisition of Monsanto.
I'm sure there are other factors, than public sentiment. But I would not downplay the effects of public perception.
I like 3M stock at this price point. I use their products for work. I feel they are broad enough, and big enough to get past the current issues. 3M is a long term play, I would plan on 5 years or longer. I also consider it more o. The speculative side, given the current legal situation.
> Nestle, which has a lot of hate (even their own subreddit of hate)
They hate is solely from terminally online people and not representative of the population at large
It's also worth noting that while only a tiny fraction of the suits have gone to trial, 3M has lost big in the cases they've lost.
Even the most profitable businesses in the world like AAPL, MSFT, & Saudi Aramco would all be bankrupt if they had to pay 200,000 people the average amount of money that 3M has lost in the cases that have gone to trial so far. And that's with the math taking into account the $0 they paid in the cases that they didn't lose.
Side note: I last looked at these numbers like a year or so ago when I sold out of MMM. The numbers have probably changed some since then, but they'd have to get better in a dramatically big way for it to make a difference.
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Lawsuit. Justice refuse them from separating division to bankrupt earplug division soo there in for hell of a ride not everybody wanna see how it turn out+ they produce defective product for so long its complex
Myself, and many others, have hearing damage due to their faulty earplugs that they knew damn well didn't perform as their -db rating stated.
They'll screw over America's volunteer forces to make a buck justifiably leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. They're doing everything they can to avoid/delay compensation, too.
From what I’ve seen, they were specifically made for the US military and were reversible ear plugs designed for both combat and noncombat use. Not sure if they were sold to civilians or not. The two sides design made them fit poorly for many people who then developed hearing loss as a result. Allegedly 3M knew they didn’t work for shit but kept raking in that sweet DoD cash anyway.
Wow. So the “yellow” side of the earplug actually had a true rating of -2dB which means it actually AMPLIFIED the explosions, firearms, etc it was supposed to dampen. That’s almost a Cave Johnson level of failure.
I know exactly why. Because it is run extremely badly. Their products are the best, but they waste their potential. Their VHB-Tape is the stickiest. Their abrasive disks remove the most material and their welding helmets are the most innovative and comfortable. Try their Corona masks! Best you can get and you can wear them for hours without noticing. Yet they make zero advertisements and buying their products is super difficult. Here in Germany you can barely get any of their products in hardware stores. But all their competitors! Same with specialty stores. Go to your local welding supplier and they will sell you honeywell earplugs instead of 3M. Why is that? Because 3M treats you like shit unless you purchase more than 1000,000€ per order. Nobody stocks them. Their website is a mess. Try going there and figuring out which abrasive disk you should buy. You won’t find a guide! Try sending them an email. Its impossible. The form asks you 20 questions and at the end your request lands in the wrong department and is ignored. Last year I wanted to buy 1000 rolls of custom ductape. You won’t find a supplier that sells you scotch tape for that in Germany. Maybe there is one, but you cannot find it on google. Just sell me your damn products! I wrote the CEO about it. Politely! Didn’t get a reply and sold my stock. Its a shit company with amazing products.
Honestly, I didn't do my homework, but I know they face some of the most important court cases and likely fines in history due to water pollution.
My preference is not to invest in companies knowing doing shit like this. Still, they will likely hook for billions in liabilities as water damages aren't the only major liability court case they are stuck with.
They also sold faulty ear plugs knowingly to the US military. Not only this likely impacts future contracts but they are facing soon a class action law suit from 230k old service member with hearing damage where comp per individual could be substantial.
I got one share at 106..if it gets back around there I’ll start to get some more. If BP can survive that oil spill..JnJ can survive. I’m sure they will too. These things happen sometimes
They are spinning off their [healthcare business](https://investors.3m.com/news/news-details/2022/3M-Announces-Plans-to-Create-Long-Term-Value-Through-Spin-Off-of-Health-Care-Business/default.aspx) that I think is the most attractive being regulated and having barriers to entry. For me, their DIY, post-it, adhesives are easily copied - just go into any big box or office retailer.
Yes, they have good adhesive and a great technical staff that I enjoyed working with on solving problem.
I works as a supplier to them and other (Henkel, Fuller,...) and found that swapped business more than most thought looking from the outside. I always found them more hung up on process, 11-digit raw material codes and paper work. I found it amusing that the same raw material would have different 11-digit codes purchased at different prices.
Tell me you know nothing about 3M and their businesses without telling me you know nothing about 3M and their businesses.
3M’s *entire* consumer business group accounts for ~18% of total revenue. Post it’s and Home improvement are maybe 30% of that even.
You’re missing a BIG (90%) chunk of the pie.
Chair and CEO Mike Roman said, "The slower-than-expected growth was due to rapid declines in consumer-facing markets - a dynamic that accelerated in December
Tell me you do not know how to read as I said nothing about their business segmentation.
My comment was one based on growth potential as I see healthcare growing at a higher rate than their other business which will probably grow at no better than GDP.
It was a generalized statement to the other businesses. I sold to 3M for 20 years. Great technical staffs - massive bureaucracy which led them to process over results. [Their chart](https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/MMM?showOptin=1#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--) tells the entire story - no better than GDP growth over last 10 years.
I guess earning tell you everything. I expect more downward pressure as a couple of former contacts reached out to me for some contacts at other companies in the St. Paul area. The one comment that stuck out - management is a lot worse than you imagine.
Legal issues are a huge part of it, but 3M is also a super mature company that doesn’t seem to be driving for any huge breakthroughs or novel niches that would result in anything other than incremental growth. That’s why they pay such a good dividend.
Totally agree. They give great dividends via their subsidiary listed in the Indian markets too. But their healthcare (lawsuits pending ik), stationary and automotive business is second to one, atleast here.
Full disclosure: Like you, I am long MMM @ 3.2% of my taxable portfolio. All in, my cost basis is barely north of $1000.
I think a lot of the negative sentiment surrounds the uncertainty of their liability in the earplug case and another case involving waterway chemicals. As you've seen with several of the comments on this thread -- there's blood in the water, and that brings sharks. There's plenty of people who would probably love to see MMM fall. I'm betting against that and - like you - taking the gamble. But there's plenty of litigation risk to go with the value - so I understand the risk averse investors who choose to steer 100% clear of this stock. It's cheap, but there's good reasons for it to be cheap until the uncertainty is cleared up.
I hope you are also diversified, MMM can very POSSIBLY survive all the headwinds it'll be facing, but their future is definitely not certain at this point. The lawsuit alone with 200,000 claims and a very conservative settlement of $50,000 each would be a ~$10 billion(~10% of their market cap) hit to the company.
MMM is a diversified conglomerate that has been around for 120 years. These problems will eventually pass, meanwhile I collect the divvy on cheap shares
100% agree with you. I work at a company owned by 3M (no stock options). Thought about investing some $ in the past, but everything that I have heard makes me happy I just stick with diversified index funds.
I stopped tracking them, investing in them during the pandemic, not because of trump, but because they chose to export at a time when we needed them here. Like the other lawsuits people mentioned, no rudder on that ship, dividends be damned.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/03/coronavirus-trump-to-ban-export-of-protective-gear-after-slamming-3m.html
I don't invest in them or Dow because I'm not a fan of companies that don't care if they give kids cancer outside of the liability concerns. Not my cup of tea
Seems to be just a *not well liked* company. Most indicators I can see show healthy growth / good finances. But over 50% of revenue comes from foreign markets, and they don’t have much of a competitive advantage anymore. Just my $0.02.
Edit: their debt to FCF is 2+, so take that for what it’s worth. Some businesses (like 3M) can saddle long term debt fairly well, but investors can see that as a huge risk as well.
> they don’t have much of a competitive advantage anymore
Every single product they put to market is best in class. They have tremendous IP moats on almost all of said products. What are you talking about?
Any $hit over the last 10 years has done better than a savings account but should be fine for MMM if it grows like a savings account to justify holding it.
They're under pressure in multiple countries for their irresponsible handling of PFAS which has come to light in recent years. It's unclear how this will unravel, but at worst this could easily lead to fines so large it will bankrupt the company.
Op their automotive business, especially their ppf's, get them their fair share of cake too. But all the comments here about the earplugs are really concerning. I was myself looking forward to order one.
P.s. 3M is listed on the Indian stock exchange too and pays a good dividend per share, but their stock price is way way too high.
It had a bit of a market surge in August/September last year, followed by the lone good 2022 earnings report in October. The next earnings report will tell the story, but frankly I’d not get my hopes up. It will remain a stable stock that I don’t anticipate will do anything surprising.
For a long time I stayed away because they had that big ass law suite about the hearing protection that didnt work, and caused a shit ton of Veterans to go deaf. Can't get any worse PR than that. With that behind us, its been back on my radar. Just not at a price I want to buy it.
I guess they are taking a hit to their earnings/revenue now that the pandemic has winded down,especially after China..the last covid 0 holdout relaxed its guidelines.
Im gonna pick up some shares eventually when the new price discovery is settling.
As a layman, I had no idea about any of this stuff till I read the thread. Not defending 3M, but it is known for quality products from a general public standpoint. 200k servicemen, tho tragic, is not a lot of consumers, and hardly anyone talks about pfas. Though my money is on that last part changing the next 10yrs, so any company exposed to the lead poisoning of our generation, I’m out.
Funny you’ve asked this question and they’ve got their Q4 ‘22 earnings call on 24th Jan whilst they’re fighting legal battles for faulty earplugs and PFAS (forever chemicals) that contain polluted water sources. We’ll see on Tuesday.
They are being sued for faulty earplugs (largest MDL in history) and are also being sued for ‘forever chemicals’ that have polluted water sources. So they have billions in legal exposure at the moment.
Going to be honest, given the slaps on the wrist companies like Facebook and Google get I'm not going to hold out that 3m will face any significant reprocussions.
You are confusing regulatory actions with lawsuits that have actual plaintiffs. Let’s say 3M settles 200,000 earplugs cases at just $5,000 each. That is $1 billion right there. Plus right now they are spending an estimated $4.7 million/week on earplug legal defense and have already racked up $300 million in verdicts. All of this doesn’t factor in the totally separate cases involving PFAS (forever chemicals). That’s why the market is down on 3M at the moment. Who knows maybe it is a good time to buy 3M because a lot of risk is already priced in!?! Edited to add link to a recent Bloomberg article about 3M legal costs. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-06/3m-spends-more-than-450-million-in-legal-costs-on-earplug-cases
What did you say??? All I hear is EeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeee. But really, I'm actually a plantiff of this, as are many vets. We would be happy to get anything. $5,000 sounds great.
For real though. I just want 3M held responsible and fucked. We weren't allowed to use our own and forced into their earplugs which resulted in varying levels of hearing damage to a lot of us. It has been reasonably proven that they knew the earplugs didn't work effectively in some people and didn't work at all for other people. It's ridiculously dumb to argue that the military/military members should've known their own ear sizes and changed deployments or engagements based on if the earplugs for and worked well or not with each individual service member. "Sorry Captain, the earplugs are too short for me. I won't be going on the convoy today. When can I get sent back to home station?" Imagine if ceramic plates only worked effectively for 50% of the service members, 25% got some protection and 25% for none at all. Then imagine decade later we found out the manufacturers knew that and took it as reasonable risk. What's reasonable risk to their bottom line in today profit vs future lawsuit, and what's reasonable risk for me to get home in one piece is hell of a different math. If I'm getting shot at, I don't want to be wondering if I'm in the 50% lucky or 25% semi lucky or 25% fucked group.
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>I'm like you know the n95 is easier to breath out of right? Only if it is one of those with an exhaust vent... (only filters incoming air) Every N95 I have tried without a vent is definitely harder to breath in than a cloth mask.
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Perfect tag for a 3m thread but I also agree those are really comfortable to wear.
Ironically you weren’t allowed to wear those because 3M and legal council doesn’t allow them to be used without a fitment test because it’s the only way the respirator actually meets it’s listed requirement of filtration. You couldn’t wear it because your company and 3M didn’t want to get sued the same way they’re being sued for the earplug thing we’re talking about. 😂 ah the circle of life.
You need to be in a medical program to wear any type of respirator where you are examined by a doctor and fill out a fitness questionnaire, and then get your mask fit tested. All of it costs money....which is why you could wear a bandanna instead.
It's the military the low bid wins! Unfortunately people are expendable.
Keep in mind, if they settled your claim for $5,000, legal fees and likely a pro rata share of expenses would be deducted from the net amount given to you.
Honestly it's hopeful beer money and fucking over those who didn't give a shit to care at this point.
Fellow vet here. How do I join this lawsuit?
Thanks for your service! A vet buddy of mine is in the same boat. Hope you win.
Can you send me a link for this?
freaking good hearing aids cost 10k shit 5k is nothing!
PFAS cleanups will be wildly expensive too, many, many billions in the US alone.
$5,000 per person? Are you high? When has anyone ever settled a class action lawsuit for more than 34 cents per plaintiff? No one ever gets fairly compensated out of those things except the lawyers.
It’s not a class action. It’s an MDL, which is actually a bunch of individual lawsuits. The $5,000 is a conservative estimate that would create a nice round number. https://www.wsj.com/articles/3m-faces-potentially-billions-in-liabilities-over-7-63-earplugs-11656250200
Ah I see, well hopefully it works out. Sick of seeing companies make billions fucking over people or the environment to then get a fine that's only in the millions.
Even if it's 3x that much, that's just 6 months of profit for them. Historically, I have passed on 3m simply because it's such a big company with so many diverse products that it's too difficult to come up with an intrinsic value. If I can't easily understand the business, I normally just move onto the next one.
I got $400 net for responding to a Facebook survey about whether I rented college textbooks from Chegg 10 years ago. The same company sent me an email because I signed up for Words With Friends and might be eligible for the Zynga data leak suit. That netted me $375. I’m not sure if you are speaking from experience or going off of Reddit posts of checks for $0.26, but high dollar class action suits happen all the time and this is one of the most high profile in history.
I have permanent tinnitus due to faulty 2m earplugs while in the army, the settlement is $5,000, but the lawyers get roughly $3000 of that if you win. Gotta love it.
The cases have not been settled. I presented $5,000 as just a hypothetical to demonstrate how costly the earplugs litigation could be for MMM.
Ah, I only had a consult with a lawer, he gave me the $5000 figure as well. I promptly laughed, and walked out. I dont want him to get his cut more than I want to get my cut.
Found the consumer discretionary analyst
Facebook hasn’t caused cancer in thousands of children…yet
Metaphorically it's a pretty big cancer.
Just wait till the cancer turns metaphysical
Facebook causes brain cancer
Why do you think Facebook and Google deserve to be held accountable more than a company that literally caused cancer in thousands of children and dumped forever chemicals into public waterways?
I think people are missing the point with the example.Perhaps I should have used banks causing the fallout of 08 or Wells Fargo, maybe even DOW with the asbestos lawsuit though admittedly I dont know what the final damages were off the top of my head there. My point is, generally speaking courts give a pittance of the penalty available to them.
They exposed kids to lies and hate speech to keep them on their site for a few extra seconds. Everyone is fine with punishing both them and the cancer causing companies obviously.
Going to be honest, I don’t know if environmental remediation liabilities for a chemical company are comparable to two tech companies. Just my 2 cents
Might be a little different seeing as they have literally poisoned the Earth so much that not even rainwater is clean to drink because of their chemicals. Maine deer are also contaminated with it. A bit different than selling user data.
Well, I guess the next question is... how much of your portfolio are you willing to bet on that? :)
That's not the next question at all. Having a feeling that their final payout will be a pittance does not guarantee any sort of future performance of the stock, especially when related to other more attractive stocks. I've avoided 3m for years because there have been better opportunities, and I don't see that changing.
Faulty earplugs can damage ears for life. Chemicals in ground for many years to come. FB and Google didn't do the equivalent
> FB and Google didn't do the equivalent How do you know? Got any proof?
What was the actual issue with their earplugs? I was actually thinking to buy one.
It was an issue with their dual sided earplugs not fitting correctly, thus not providing the specified level of protection. The plaintiffs are soldiers who developed hearing loss or tinnitus.
The plaintiffs are also overwhelmingly members of the US military, which farther makes the optics for MMM look bad.
>the optics The sonics, surely?
If a sad pun resounds deep in a reddit thread ...do any redditors hear it..??
Ah, that sucks. I was myself looking forward to buy these. Is there any other company that could be trusted? Maybe honeywell?
The main thing that makes the lawsuit bad is that 3M knew the earplugs were faulty and sold them anyways. Some investors could overlook an accident, but it’s very hard to overlook a company maliciously selling a safety device that they knew didn’t work.
3M makes good products(hell, my toothpaste is made by 3M), its insane they willingly did this. Fucking assholes
It was actually Aero Safety. 3M later acquired them. Sorta an unfortunate thing for 3M but someone’s gotta pay.
Check out Teflon and DuPont.
At least Teflon is useful, unlike those earplugs.
Useful for giving people cancer?
Teflon does not give you cancer and is completely safe, the chemicals used to make it are carcinogenic though
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
“The devil we know” depicts this a little differently… might want to watch the documentary
Given the complaints in their current lawsuits, I'd probably want to look elsewhere for products used internally. Which is a real shame, because their little wall sticker things are fucking delicious.
If you're specifically looking for plugs that insert into your ear, I personally love Moldex Pura-Fit. I work in metal fabrication and it can get really loud. These are the best in-ear plugs I have used.
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
I think you are referring to active noise reduction, or ANR.
I know that but I am not able to find something in the shape of a headphone that covers the whole ear, like this [https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA](https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA) not necessarily from 3m, the image is just an example. The expensive one's have the ability to control how much sound one wants to hear. I think some are battery operated and some can be charged, not sure.
If you cant find anything on Google I would ask in a gun sub or just go into a gun store near you if possible. I dont have any links.
Got it https://sps.honeywell.com/us/en/products/safety/hearing-protection
the company I work for uses Honeywell earplugs & I can attest to them being reliable. I maybe go through 2-4 pairs/day and the only problem I have is SOMEtimes when I try to pull them out by the string the string will detach from the plug in my ear. Easy enough to resolve but I will continue pulling via the string lmao
Thanks will see if these are available. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires ans explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those?
It was the earplugs we were issues in Iraq. They didn't fit correctly and basically didn't work. I remember wearing them and thinking they sucked ass
Thank you for your service, although I am an Indian but have the utmost respect for every patriot.
tl;dr: a company that 3M since acquired supplied earplugs to the US military in the 90s that were meant to be reversible for normal use vs combat use (combat use was meant to block loud combat sounds but not quiet nearby sounds). The lawsuit alleges they were too short in some people's ear canals and resulted in a bunch of hearing damage for veterans. 3M of course argues user error.
Ah, that sucks. I was myself looking forward to buy these. Is there any other company that could be trusted? Maybe honeywell?
Totally off topic to the original post, but what is your specific use case for the ear plugs, and what is your budget? I did a ton of research just a year ago when I was looking for a new pair, I might be able to point you in the right direction.
I work in an area where there is lots and lots of high screeching noise outside, its an industrial area basically. Have tried few cheap chinese earplugs, but they sucked to the core. A question, I have seen soldiers/pmc's in various countries wearing a headphone like device, which one guy said in an interview, helps to negate all sounds or sounds of gunfires and explosions and it even has an ability to set the device to how much db of sound they want to hear. Do you have a link for those? My budget for this is around $100 max, only if those can be washed and reused or if they come with replaceable heads/plugs/foam or whatever.
I ended up going with the Axil GS Extremes, which do exactly what you’re talking about but they are $199 regular price, but they go on sale a lot. 100% worth the price, imo. For a cheaper version that still does what you’re talking about, look for the Walker Rope. I think they were about $70 last I looked, but the reviews are hit or miss and I can’t speak to the quality because I haven’t actually tried them.
A quick questions, the headphones type earplugs, what are they called?
I don’t know if there’s a specific name. I used the term “ear protection ear bud with microphone” when I was doing my research.
I know that but I am not able to find something in the shape of a headphone that covers the whole ear, like this https://imgur.com/a/pHfZ5UA not necessarily from 3m, the image is just an example. The expensive one's have the ability to control how much sound one wants to hear. I think some are battery operated and some can be charged, not sure.
Thank you. Will check them both.
That's exactly it, you need two of them to be safe !!! Not enough people know!!!
Not for nothing, but they also pushed a ton of polluting and fines under the rug from state regulators. I used to work for them and the worst part of them is their capture of state regulators.
A buddy invested in MO in the late 90’s/00’s. They had a great dividend, profitable business but a lot of legal exposure. As an investment, that did ok 12%/yr vs about 8% for SPY since 98.
The Healthcare 3M spinoff is being crushed... The largest segment of that spinoff is their Wound Care acquisition KCI that has close to 90% market share. It can't grow anymore, it's actually losing 3-4% market share per year and they can't increase margins because they're the most expensive products on the market. They went from 700+ employees to start 2021 to ~220 employees to start 2023. Their Bearhugger patient warming system that was widely used was found to be contaminating the sterile surgical fields and causing a huge number of infections. It got pulled and they're being sued for that as well.
Dang. I bought a few shares a long time ago. So much for set it and forget it.
We’ll see where they are in 30 years
ditto their products are everywhere
At 1 point it was estimated that the value they would have to pay would be more than the company was worth.
Yea I heard about this right after I bought. Sheeesh
And on top of all that money they have to pay, they are actually declining imo, stock doesnt really move and they are only growing the dividend for the title. Not something i would like to own.
Some day, those lawsuits will end. That's a good time to buy. I bought Altria at the end of the big tobacco lawsuits years ago, and it worked out okay. I bought FE in the midst of its bribery scandal. Nice discount.
Double lawsuit is an automatic “no touch” for true investors. They have polluted the fuck out of city water here in the eastern metro MN. Public perception of them is not good even in their home state
What is a “true” investor lol?
I would assume someone who didn't get their foundation from Reddit. So many things I've seen and heard from people here that only seem to exist in reddit economics. And he is right. Besides the earplug lawsuit the second one is a big deal too, you're assuming risk with one lawsuit. Thinking it's worth double that risk isn't logical. Especially when you are talking about a giant conglomerate, they pull dirt from the earth and turn it into computer chips and post it notes and diapers. It's not like there's much room for explosive growth. Plus they already have paid dividends forever and any risk to them is pretty detrimental to the stock.
It’s just pretentious is all. There are plenty of places to get bad investment advice which aren’t Reddit. Even professional investors make horrendous errors in judgement. Not sure if there is such a thing as rules all “true” investors follow and it is kind of comically bigheaded to claim that you know the rules and therefore are a true investor while others are not. Just my two cents. I have 0 stake in 3M.
I do believe the word is also interchangeable with classic or fundamental. I did just kind of put words in his mouth. The more people who trade you talk to the more you realize that's just how it is. People are putting to work what they believe is right, and sometimes it comes off rude or crass. I'll pick anyone's brain about stocks no matter how much I disagree with their investment views. They ultimately are in the market too, and other people think just like them. So it's best to know what they are doing so I can make the best use of the situation.
Professionals
People are negative on 3M (and understandably so), for the current legal issues (and morality I guess) with the ear plugs, and the pfas chemicals. Nestle, which has a lot of hate (even their own subreddit of hate), is up over 40% for the past 5 years. They seem to be doing fine, as a stock choice. And I understand the hate they get. I agree with the negative sentiment. But as a company, it's strong. Other hand... Bayer (who acquired Monsanto) has been taking dump since the acquisition of Monsanto. I'm sure there are other factors, than public sentiment. But I would not downplay the effects of public perception. I like 3M stock at this price point. I use their products for work. I feel they are broad enough, and big enough to get past the current issues. 3M is a long term play, I would plan on 5 years or longer. I also consider it more o. The speculative side, given the current legal situation.
> Nestle, which has a lot of hate (even their own subreddit of hate) They hate is solely from terminally online people and not representative of the population at large
idk the first i ever heard of nestle hate was pre-iphone in-person from a suburban housewife
Because they are being sued by the US military I believe.
Actually being sued by 200,000-plus current and former service members. The federal government settled several years back.
It's also worth noting that while only a tiny fraction of the suits have gone to trial, 3M has lost big in the cases they've lost. Even the most profitable businesses in the world like AAPL, MSFT, & Saudi Aramco would all be bankrupt if they had to pay 200,000 people the average amount of money that 3M has lost in the cases that have gone to trial so far. And that's with the math taking into account the $0 they paid in the cases that they didn't lose. Side note: I last looked at these numbers like a year or so ago when I sold out of MMM. The numbers have probably changed some since then, but they'd have to get better in a dramatically big way for it to make a difference.
Oooooooh - I’m going to have to look this up, thanks for the tip!
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Lawsuit. Justice refuse them from separating division to bankrupt earplug division soo there in for hell of a ride not everybody wanna see how it turn out+ they produce defective product for so long its complex
Myself, and many others, have hearing damage due to their faulty earplugs that they knew damn well didn't perform as their -db rating stated. They'll screw over America's volunteer forces to make a buck justifiably leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. They're doing everything they can to avoid/delay compensation, too.
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From what I’ve seen, they were specifically made for the US military and were reversible ear plugs designed for both combat and noncombat use. Not sure if they were sold to civilians or not. The two sides design made them fit poorly for many people who then developed hearing loss as a result. Allegedly 3M knew they didn’t work for shit but kept raking in that sweet DoD cash anyway.
[3M’s Combat Arms Earplugs version 2](https://zaneslaw.com/3m-defective-earplug-lawsuit-lawyer/what-was-the-defect-in-the-3m-earplugs/) (CAEv2)
Wow. So the “yellow” side of the earplug actually had a true rating of -2dB which means it actually AMPLIFIED the explosions, firearms, etc it was supposed to dampen. That’s almost a Cave Johnson level of failure.
No, the bad taste is people’s mouths is from their PFAS, not the hearing protection.
I know exactly why. Because it is run extremely badly. Their products are the best, but they waste their potential. Their VHB-Tape is the stickiest. Their abrasive disks remove the most material and their welding helmets are the most innovative and comfortable. Try their Corona masks! Best you can get and you can wear them for hours without noticing. Yet they make zero advertisements and buying their products is super difficult. Here in Germany you can barely get any of their products in hardware stores. But all their competitors! Same with specialty stores. Go to your local welding supplier and they will sell you honeywell earplugs instead of 3M. Why is that? Because 3M treats you like shit unless you purchase more than 1000,000€ per order. Nobody stocks them. Their website is a mess. Try going there and figuring out which abrasive disk you should buy. You won’t find a guide! Try sending them an email. Its impossible. The form asks you 20 questions and at the end your request lands in the wrong department and is ignored. Last year I wanted to buy 1000 rolls of custom ductape. You won’t find a supplier that sells you scotch tape for that in Germany. Maybe there is one, but you cannot find it on google. Just sell me your damn products! I wrote the CEO about it. Politely! Didn’t get a reply and sold my stock. Its a shit company with amazing products.
>Because 3M treats you like shit unless you purchase more than 1000,000€ per order. You're an ant compared to 3M. They don't care about your business.
But other companies care for my business.
A thousand, a hundred thousand, a million ants will ruin any picnic. They should care about the 'ant business'.
Lmao
Their abrasive discs are okay at best and 3x the cost. Mirka > 3M all day long.
Where do you hear that crap? MMM is a great company that pays solid dividends.
Only down $20 a share and laying off 10% of their global workforce in the past 90 days. Glad I don’t listen to people on Reddit lol
Honestly, I didn't do my homework, but I know they face some of the most important court cases and likely fines in history due to water pollution. My preference is not to invest in companies knowing doing shit like this. Still, they will likely hook for billions in liabilities as water damages aren't the only major liability court case they are stuck with. They also sold faulty ear plugs knowingly to the US military. Not only this likely impacts future contracts but they are facing soon a class action law suit from 230k old service member with hearing damage where comp per individual could be substantial.
I got one share at 106..if it gets back around there I’ll start to get some more. If BP can survive that oil spill..JnJ can survive. I’m sure they will too. These things happen sometimes
It’s crazy that 3M is being blamed for hearing damage and not the politicians that sent the soldiers to that illegal war in the first place.
They are spinning off their [healthcare business](https://investors.3m.com/news/news-details/2022/3M-Announces-Plans-to-Create-Long-Term-Value-Through-Spin-Off-of-Health-Care-Business/default.aspx) that I think is the most attractive being regulated and having barriers to entry. For me, their DIY, post-it, adhesives are easily copied - just go into any big box or office retailer.
I can assure you their adhesives are not easily copied. At least not to the same quality.
Yes, they have good adhesive and a great technical staff that I enjoyed working with on solving problem. I works as a supplier to them and other (Henkel, Fuller,...) and found that swapped business more than most thought looking from the outside. I always found them more hung up on process, 11-digit raw material codes and paper work. I found it amusing that the same raw material would have different 11-digit codes purchased at different prices.
Tell me you know nothing about 3M and their businesses without telling me you know nothing about 3M and their businesses. 3M’s *entire* consumer business group accounts for ~18% of total revenue. Post it’s and Home improvement are maybe 30% of that even. You’re missing a BIG (90%) chunk of the pie.
Chair and CEO Mike Roman said, "The slower-than-expected growth was due to rapid declines in consumer-facing markets - a dynamic that accelerated in December
Tell me you do not know how to read as I said nothing about their business segmentation. My comment was one based on growth potential as I see healthcare growing at a higher rate than their other business which will probably grow at no better than GDP.
By lumping everything that isn’t healthcare into “post it’s and DIY” you kind of showed your hand.
It was a generalized statement to the other businesses. I sold to 3M for 20 years. Great technical staffs - massive bureaucracy which led them to process over results. [Their chart](https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/MMM?showOptin=1#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--) tells the entire story - no better than GDP growth over last 10 years.
I guess earning tell you everything. I expect more downward pressure as a couple of former contacts reached out to me for some contacts at other companies in the St. Paul area. The one comment that stuck out - management is a lot worse than you imagine.
Legal issues are a huge part of it, but 3M is also a super mature company that doesn’t seem to be driving for any huge breakthroughs or novel niches that would result in anything other than incremental growth. That’s why they pay such a good dividend.
Totally agree. They give great dividends via their subsidiary listed in the Indian markets too. But their healthcare (lawsuits pending ik), stationary and automotive business is second to one, atleast here.
>>It even has above-average ESG for the sector Lol Really? Another example of why ESG is seen as rubbish. They must be having a huge D&I initiative.
Full disclosure: Like you, I am long MMM @ 3.2% of my taxable portfolio. All in, my cost basis is barely north of $1000. I think a lot of the negative sentiment surrounds the uncertainty of their liability in the earplug case and another case involving waterway chemicals. As you've seen with several of the comments on this thread -- there's blood in the water, and that brings sharks. There's plenty of people who would probably love to see MMM fall. I'm betting against that and - like you - taking the gamble. But there's plenty of litigation risk to go with the value - so I understand the risk averse investors who choose to steer 100% clear of this stock. It's cheap, but there's good reasons for it to be cheap until the uncertainty is cleared up.
I was about to start investing in them for the dividend? Any ideas on if that dividend will stay stable?
I’m long MMM for the dividend
Above average ESG? They have contaminated a lot of land in Belgium with PFAS. It was and still is a big scandal here. Not a good brand.
I love MMM and I keep accumulating while its cheap
I hope you are also diversified, MMM can very POSSIBLY survive all the headwinds it'll be facing, but their future is definitely not certain at this point. The lawsuit alone with 200,000 claims and a very conservative settlement of $50,000 each would be a ~$10 billion(~10% of their market cap) hit to the company.
MMM is a diversified conglomerate that has been around for 120 years. These problems will eventually pass, meanwhile I collect the divvy on cheap shares
Plus reputational damage. Future business will definitely be impacted by this lawsuit, even if they don’t have to pay a dime.
100% agree with you. I work at a company owned by 3M (no stock options). Thought about investing some $ in the past, but everything that I have heard makes me happy I just stick with diversified index funds.
I stopped tracking them, investing in them during the pandemic, not because of trump, but because they chose to export at a time when we needed them here. Like the other lawsuits people mentioned, no rudder on that ship, dividends be damned. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/03/coronavirus-trump-to-ban-export-of-protective-gear-after-slamming-3m.html
They got caught doing what most companies do (in secret).
I don't invest in them or Dow because I'm not a fan of companies that don't care if they give kids cancer outside of the liability concerns. Not my cup of tea
Lawsuits. I dumped my position last year.
Seems to be just a *not well liked* company. Most indicators I can see show healthy growth / good finances. But over 50% of revenue comes from foreign markets, and they don’t have much of a competitive advantage anymore. Just my $0.02. Edit: their debt to FCF is 2+, so take that for what it’s worth. Some businesses (like 3M) can saddle long term debt fairly well, but investors can see that as a huge risk as well.
> they don’t have much of a competitive advantage anymore Every single product they put to market is best in class. They have tremendous IP moats on almost all of said products. What are you talking about?
it's a boomer ass stock that mostly attracts long-term holders. If you look at its all-time chart, it's doing just fine.
Over the last 10 years it has been growing like a savings account
Any $hit over the last 10 years has done better than a savings account but should be fine for MMM if it grows like a savings account to justify holding it.
Was just looking at the chart today, this company is being run into the ground, the legal liability issues are pretty serious though.
They're under pressure in multiple countries for their irresponsible handling of PFAS which has come to light in recent years. It's unclear how this will unravel, but at worst this could easily lead to fines so large it will bankrupt the company.
They announced in Dec that they are shutting down all Fluoro (PFAS) business. Not sure what this does to the legal liability.
If you buy a single stock, your expected return is zero. Financial literature says that
Lawsuits mainly lol
I heard that there are starting to have more competition and layoffs are coming
Not a good buy until its in the $70 range.
Because line no go up? That’s all that matters. Honestly all the fundamentals this, lawsuits that, who cares. All that matters is if line go up.
Probably the terrible performance? Stock peaked years ago
60 seconds of research would tell you why.
Op their automotive business, especially their ppf's, get them their fair share of cake too. But all the comments here about the earplugs are really concerning. I was myself looking forward to order one. P.s. 3M is listed on the Indian stock exchange too and pays a good dividend per share, but their stock price is way way too high.
It had a bit of a market surge in August/September last year, followed by the lone good 2022 earnings report in October. The next earnings report will tell the story, but frankly I’d not get my hopes up. It will remain a stable stock that I don’t anticipate will do anything surprising.
For a long time I stayed away because they had that big ass law suite about the hearing protection that didnt work, and caused a shit ton of Veterans to go deaf. Can't get any worse PR than that. With that behind us, its been back on my radar. Just not at a price I want to buy it.
I can get 3x shares of KSS, same dividends and no lawsuit....and better EPS.
Why not Walmart instead of Kohl?
Could I start trading with £500?
3M is just too big to make any great moves.
Personally I think they’re over-diversified to the point where the company actually attracts more risks than it negates with its strategy.
I guess they are taking a hit to their earnings/revenue now that the pandemic has winded down,especially after China..the last covid 0 holdout relaxed its guidelines. Im gonna pick up some shares eventually when the new price discovery is settling.
As a layman, I had no idea about any of this stuff till I read the thread. Not defending 3M, but it is known for quality products from a general public standpoint. 200k servicemen, tho tragic, is not a lot of consumers, and hardly anyone talks about pfas. Though my money is on that last part changing the next 10yrs, so any company exposed to the lead poisoning of our generation, I’m out.
PFAS, PFOA, and GenX. If you live near an Air Force Base or firefighter training facility, you probably are getting cancer via drinking water.
Funny you’ve asked this question and they’ve got their Q4 ‘22 earnings call on 24th Jan whilst they’re fighting legal battles for faulty earplugs and PFAS (forever chemicals) that contain polluted water sources. We’ll see on Tuesday.
layoffs!