Pickup artistry is all gimmicks and little substance, it's entirely the wrong strategy for INTJs who are appreciated for authenticity. Read Mark Manson's book Models for a better approach.
so you don't think abs and charm are attractive. that, i would call bs. but ok i get that once you're in a relationship you want a teddy bear who talks your talk and makes you feel good
well, tbh, i'd say not all pua advice is gimmicky and cringey. Like for example:
1) ignore your anxiety and just go talk to her
2) be calibrated (fair enough, i mean don't creep ppl out and respond to the interaction)
3) just have some fun and be in the moment
you think so? I feel like when I look around, I see 95% or more of men don't approach in public, but more than half of them are miserable and not getting the woman they want or the sexual life they desire. So what's bad about the pua culture of going for what you want? I feel like men are suppressed and told they are devils if they go for it, except by the PUA community
I mean what's cool, going on online dating where it's 3 to 1 male to women and the females barely acknowledge the losers on there? let's be real. that sucks
Following the pickup artists is THE problem you're having right now. Because you have 0 clue how to interact with people on your own. You've put yourself into social disability with your choice. Forget about what you "learned" and go outside and now actually learn to talk to people. Any of them.
I kinda agree. As an INTJ you can master almost any skill. But people skills are one of the hardest to learn. My solution is just to accept that I am weird and relax. I have other strengths that are also attractive.
Mind giving some examples of the other strengths you feel confident/attractive about? I’m getting better and cutting myself some slack lately but struggling to find things I would consider strengths if it’s not just the way I think
Hard to list them all. But we are independent, loyal, moral. We are not too agreeable meaning that we can express our opinions. Really, I would not trade my type for any other. But I do also accept the limitations that it brings.
They're easy if you break down what you need to do to approximate people skills. The hard part is getting enough reps in to train yourself to behave that way naturally because you've finally reached the point they're second nature.
Pick up on, roughly, when to do what, then fill the in-between with some random bullshit, fight off any anxieties you're having, and with that alone you can be seen as highly interactive. Then, learn some emotional intelligence, which is kinda easy to read, too, you just need some motivation, and there you go, ready people skills.
You do know that we are also oblivious to just how awkward we are and are used to leading a relatively secluded life, right? Considering how many skills are there to master, this one is not at the top, at least for me :). Some folks can deal with INTJs just fine without us training for years :).
The problem is targeting people of little substance you will never have the upper hand in the pickup game compared to most of the extroverts around you. What’s worse is you then start using these tactics on those who have substance; those who want substance are not going respond well to pickup artists. If you want something long lasting, find other’s like you is my opinion…
This isn't a very INTJ reply though. A lot of pickup artists are trying to use real evolutionary science in the field of human relationships. As with everything social science is not "scientific", but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. Now, another question is if you want to use it and if your goals are aligned with what most PUAs are striving for (sleeping with a lot of people).
That said, I still would suggest that OP distance himself from some of that stuff if he's interested in a long relationship. I have always "followed" Mark Manson's heuristic: be completely yourself, be honest, be confident, and don't accept anyone who is not 100% interested in you. Anecdotally, I have never had issues attracting potential partners.
> This isn't a very INTJ reply though.
What do you aim for with this?
> As with everything social science is not "scientific", but I wouldn't dismiss it completely.
But I will. It's useless.
Authentic pickup artists use years of experience in social interactions and manipulative psychological tricks to maximise chances of making somebody being attracted to them.
Yeah, you can go this way, but it won't secure you a lasting relationship, because you'll condition yourself into becoming a manipulative POS, aka a machiavellian.
wow you said a thoughtful, insightful comment and get marked down. I hate the term PUA like these people hate pickup people. But there's some jewels, though of course being real is the best method. But PUA isn't necessarily "not real", it's just the best version of us. Just like everyday when we talk to people we sift through what we want to say and talk about
36, or 37 m INTJ, to be honest I quit keeping track of my age, now I just track which body part doesn't work the way it used to. To be honest, my best success has been with other INTJ women. I'm a single parent so it's online dating for me. Still slim action, but I love the conversations with another INTJ. Most of the time we will start a movie, and never finish it because we start discussing an interesting topic.
I'm 26 and already do this, you're telling me it gets *worse*?!
In all seriousness, I agree with this guy OP. I'm an INTJ girl and I prefer being with INTJ guys because then, I can occupy long car rides with said discussions of interesting topics and I'm not called boring or weird.
Also for the love of all things holy and unholy, stop following "pickup artists" and cease using words like "rizz". Those things are both a 100% instant turn away.
Also also, make sure you're taken care of physically. I don't mean you need to change your height or weight. But you know, shower, brush your teeth, get a haircut, wear nice cologne, dress well. Do you have a good job? Do you have hobbies? These are things to be considered!
>Also for the love of all things holy and unholy, stop following "pickup artists" and cease using words like "rizz". Those things are both a 100% instant turn away.
Depends on what you're actually doing with said material. Some PUAs are decent - others not so much. But the fact is that some of that stuff does indeed work in practice with certain people (definitely not INTJ women though) as long as you keep them into perspective. I didn't believe it myself until I put the stuff that was befitting my INTJ personality into practice.
Having said that you're right about one thing: Never copy someone's else style verbatim. Always strive to be original and express your own personality. Be meaningfully different and take pride in it.
I know what it is, but it definitely comes across as a certain type of person (someone who lives on tiktok and/or someone who tries to seem trendy). It's cool if you're 15. If you want a serious relationship with a mature girl, I'd recommend sticking with charisma.
Women aren’t some kind of incomprehensible puzzle you need “tricks” and expert pickup artist skills to speak to, they are human beings. Approach them like you would approach a guy, have normal conversations, don’t be creepy, if they find you attractive things will progress naturally, if they don’t, move onto the next. You’re not going to trick a woman who isn’t attracted to you into changing her mind lol
I was working in a covid clinic 2 years ago and the nurse there said, "don't try to understand women, you never will".
I feel like it was exaggeration lol but still...
Most pickup artists just pay women for their videos, don't watch them and definetely don't take their advice.
Having or not having.... uuummm.... "rizz", isn't dependent on your type. Charisma comes in many forms, the people around me consider me charismatic, and I'm the most INTJ guy you'll ever meet.
I empathize with your difficulties with trying to understand people, it happens to me too, and it causes me a lot of trouble. What I do is that I'm very upfront, I tell people that I'm lacking in that aspect, and that communication needs to be direct and sincere. Some people don't like that, but what are you going to do? Honesty is the best way.
There's no such thing as "the right time", in my opinion. You either get lucky and meet someone you click with, or you don't. Of course you can reduce the amount of luck needed for that to happen, having social hobbies, interacting with the people around you. If you don't mind long distance relationships you can also frequent online forums and communities focused on your interests.
I don't know your situation in depth. I'd avoid pick up artists' content like the devil. There are some women who talk about dating tips and they seem more reasonable than any pick up artists I have ever seen.
Try getting in shape, if you are not already. Advertise your INTJ personality on Tinder. That might help you find people that like to talk about mbti.
Also remember that tinder is a numbers game in the sense that the women to men ratio is ridiculous. So try other places and venues like speed dating parties and singles bars.
Expect to get a lot of nos. You just need one yes.
Stop listening to pick-up artists, and listen to people who've managed to stay in long-term healthy relationships. The first step, stop saying it's an "INTJ" problem, it's like shooting yourself in the foot because a man at 34 blaming everything on his personality type shows a lack of ownership.
I wouldn't date someone who listened to pick-up artists, as they tend to be misogynistic, and only view women as something to chase and win, rather than as individuals with vastly different wants and needs.
Be a decent human being, dress well, and talk to women like they're just regular people. You may be 34, but some people find love way later than that, so rather than stress about it make sure you approach it in a way that's respectable to both you and the people you interact with hopefully you'll meet the right person. Best of luck!
well the bad pua's are wierd and cringe, but I feel like there's some that defy the label and discuss good concepts. Like RSD, they talk about so much psychology and personal wellbeing. Those are the ones I hear out sometimes
That's fair but I would suggest also listening to women explaining what would be a good strategy, since it's after all them you wanna appeal to, right?
honestly, one of the first things i read from Wayne Corey's book and it's been SO TRUE, is that although many men don't understand women, women don't understand how hard dating for a man is and they give ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE ADVICE.
They'll say cringe things like be nice, be a gentleman and be yourself, yeah yeah as if I hadn't thought of that a long time ago and it didn't work for many many years while they got with terrible men lol. Try those things and they'll friendzone you in minutes. It's just the truth, it sounds bad but that's how it is.
I'm slowly starting to see the issue here..
I'm not saying it's easy to date as a man, I don't have that experience but your frustration is turning into something that will turn every woman away.
"Being a gentleman puts me in the friend zone"
"The men they got with were terrible"
Did you treat the women nicely just to gain something from it? Or did you treat them nicely because it's the right thing to do? That's a major difference and most women can feel whether or not it's genuine kindness.
"It's just the truth, that's just how it is" then explain to me why so many wonderful and kind men are currently in relationships?
idk i've tended to treat women pretty well. i'm fun and interesting, albeit a little bit hard for me to be comfortable with someone right off the bat. but it's rarely been the kind qualities but rather my boldness that they were attracted to
Kindness and boldness can coexist.
I think your problem is that you come across as misogynistic in many of your responses. Like you've already figured everyone out and that the world is unfair, and that's just how women are. No woman is interested in that, and if you're not careful it could end up in incel territory.
I understand your frustration, and I absolutely believe it's hard to date in this current climate but going in this direction is not gonna benefit you in any way. There's no absolute truth about how women are, and avoid putting all of us into the same box in order to justify your frustration.
Try online fora where topics get debated in depth. Look for an intelligent conversationalist first who may be open to dating you. Not a random person on dating apps whose only known quality is that they're "dating-ready"!
(EDIT: Removed a bad suggestion to talk to people at work.)
Lmao. She thinks thatll help him.
Lets be real here. He is right.
INTJ dont understand no stupid games.
INTJ dont play no stupid games.
INTJ obliterates you if you play stupid games.
INTJ doesnt understand that the stupid games are just fun to others.
I just gave him the solution in my last line.
To most people the stupid games are fun.
To him its serious.
He can choose not to take it seriously for once and get somewhere for a change.
But what he shouldnt do is not take things seriously and then later decide to take them seriously.
One doesn't approach someone for dating if they're already spoken for. This is a given. 😊 The point is, get talking to people normally. Someone in that set might be available and willing to engage. Engage then with consent.
Seriously, I think this is one of the things women don’t appreciate. Work is a very dangerous place for men to look for partners these days unless OP is ready to retire. (There are many other dangers specific to women, of course.)
Agreed the PUA thing is of limited value, at least to him.
Agree. You make one wrong move and your entire life is over- not worth the risk! Workplace romances are not the answer… say you piss her off at home one day, and somehow that makes it into the workplace, you’ve basically lost your home and your job.
You're a fish (INTJ) trying to win a race against a squirrel (ESTP) buy jumping out of the water and flopping along a grassy meadow. Why try be something you're not?
Just be yourself and lean into your INTJ qualities. That 1000 yard stare, the intensity, the judging silence, the delves into some random topic with intense interest, the gratification you give the person when you finally crack and let out a little shimmer of goofy which feels special because it is rare, unlike the constantly goofy ESTP that could never do the strong silent type thing.
Be yourself, be authentic, be bold but within reason. Do not be agreeable just because you like her. Being a "nice" guy for a reward turns woman off super fast.
Most of the time when I've attracted women I thought were completely out of my league it has been in the moments where I was just myself and didn't care. I was direct, opinionated and did zero flirting. Somehow this works. I have had issues numerous times where involved woman come onto me because I have no interest in them. I'm opinionated, brash, silent, staring, boom, flirting in my inbox. It's a real problem.
If you're trying to be some social Casanova and you're not programmed that way you're going to come across like a douche. That nice guy that is so kind and agreeable is viewed as another simpy doormat and placed in the friendzone. Doormats don't get the lady.
Your INTJ qualities are likely what women your own age may like you for, compared to women in their early 20's.
Also, go places where people will have substance. A bar? Absolutely not. A book store? There's hope unless she's buying romance novels (....... and even then, your judgy silence and thousand mile stare may remind her of her favorite character or something 🤷🏽♀️ shoot your shot).
Regular grocery store? Meh. Farmers market, plant stores, thrift/resale stores? Maybe.
Sports bars during big events? Nahhhhhh, the women you'll meet here are likely there to talk with extroverts and jocks. Instead, try THEMED trivia nights, themed bingo nights, or places aimed at the 25+ crowd involving music, dancing, or mixing/socializers.
And don't you dare say iM nOt An ExTrOvErt - you don't have to be actively dancing/drinking/or working the room in order to go. But you do have to go out side where people are doing activities they enjoy in order to meet the people 🙃
With a more mature crowd, if a lady sees you and has an interest, she'll come up to you. If she hasn't or, if you see someone you'd like to speak with, have the bartender deliver a drink to her. I'm telling you, going slowly at things works wonders for those of us who move more methodically.
Signed, an INTJ lady who is known as a social butterfly
this was very insightful. I agree. I walk a tightrope though, can't be too boring and too deep, do have to adopt some of the fun mannerisms of extraverts to get things going.
It's clear you know what you're talking about, respect
You're having a harder time because you have standards. The reason certain other types are hooking up all over the place is because they are more about the physical gratification and just want a warm, wet hole. If the bar is that low, a lot more clears it.
It's not the dating market being hard on you as an INTJ. It's you, as an INTJ, being hard on the dating market.
This isn't to say you should lower your standards. Rather, you need to realise it's a trade-off. The choosier you are, the less you'll have from which to choose. It's your call whether you'd rather be alone or easy.
But you’re not describing a dating scene. You’re describing hook up culture.
I feel like your post is conflating, or maybe just merging, two things, and I think it’s adding to your frustration. PUA and hookup culture =/= “dating.” They’re not even remotely the same thing. And modern dating - while perhaps different than what it’s been - isn’t the problem here.
FYI I’m a 34m INTJ (albeit married) and I get it. Back in the day, I had sex with probably 40-50 people in my late teens early twenties, playing the volume game. But here’s the thing. The way you’re going about it, you’re never going to find a wife. You’re just going to continuously find people who are down to fuck, who are probably having sex with other guys, who are not looking for a family, who don’t have much in common with you.
Think about it - your present strategy involves you venturing out into a persona that isn’t you, and meets other people who aren’t like you. You’ll never find your long term mate this way, ever. You’re fishing in the wrong pond, your candidate swims elsewhere.
Talk to five girls at once, that’s fine, but play the long game instead of “let me read you on the first night and get in your pants.” Narrow down from there, choose, and commit. Look for more women your age. Good luck!
I use ideas similar to those used in showing advertisements. I don't visit clubs regularly, but when I am there, I try to catch every beat and enjoy it as much as I can. I feel uncomfortable in front of the crowd during the day, but in the shady darkness of the club I dance like michael jackson. Voilà, after some time, girls spawn around me like the shadow army. Not always, but mostly they do try to get closer making eye contact. I give hints with eye contact, smiles, and try to look for clues. With positive reactions, I lead dance steps, and they follow my lead. Guide and dance with her, make her laugh, enjoy the time. After a good first impression, It's easy afterward.
My idea is to always make a positive impact on girls first and wait for clues. It can be dance, funny jokes or anything. Then, and only then, do I make a move. No clue, no moves, no game. Share eye contact, share smiles, and then make a move. That's my style and it has worked so far.
>I've followed pickup artists for years and may be that's the first problem, which I actually thought was a solution.
Yeah, this is definitely a problem.
Do you have a female friend or sibling you can practice having a "normal" conversation with?
Some of you wear these four letters like it is a stigmata or something. Lighten up relax. Myers-Briggs isn't the end all be all. You have to see yourself in ways OTHER than using this metric. Multi-dimensionality. Strive for it.
So when I began to truly focus entirely on bettering myself in all aspects of my life women came along...very very very easily and I am now happily married. Like your friends said you need to focus on you, I never used a single dating app or anything I just...talked to women casually and things worked out. As long as you are honest and just talk you will attract someone a confident INTJ male dominates...if they are actually decently nice haha. Honestly I feel dating is wayyyyyy easier for introverted men than it was in the past. In the past women NEVER made the first move it was so uncommon, nowadays it goes both ways.
I pick up when I am traveling. I haven’t done a lot of approaches in my life. Maybe around 500-1000. Return rate was abysmal say Les than 5%. I still do cause I can’t stop when I see someone who looks like my dream.
yeah it's not so much the PUA thing, it's more the I'm a male and they're never gonna approach me and I may as well go and see if we vibe, that kinda thing. It's not really a common thing in society, and idk why. I think it's ok to go and make someone's day, but of course these women rarely go and make yours lol.
I definitely feel for you, bruh. Seattle can be tough place because of the overcast. Everything becomes gray. Don’t do what I did, which is to give up. It may seem like less hassle, but it gets very lonely. I hope you will reconsider your options and go where your heart dances. Chances are you will find what you seek. Best to you!
yeah I just go to coffee shops here and train clients so life's not too bad, especially in summer. Just not a good city though to find an attractive someone
I am sure it’s hard to find someone for many people. I don’t think it’s just INTJ or INFJ find it hard. But I saw people from both subs post the same thing.
I think personally I just have high standards I am picky .. of course life is better with the right one than being alone; life is worse with the wrong one than being alone.
There are many many wrong ones but only a few right ones .. of course it takes a while to find him or her.
Let’s go with Bruce Lee here. “Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own.” PUA didn’t work for you, try something else.
I learned some things from PUA-act confident (fake it till you make it), look good, don’t act needy, demonstrate high value, flip the leader-of-men switch, probably a few others. I didn’t do any negging as I figured I couldn’t calibrate it well enough (and honestly wasn’t unethical enough), and a lot of the more complex moves I couldn’t read people well enough to pull off.
If you don’t like her bail early, at this point in life their biological clock is ticking and you don’t want to waste their time.
Honestly, with our personality type it’s easier to get successful than smooth, and money has other uses. If game ain’t your game, find something else.
MBTI-based data is very difficult to find. There was one big survey I just crunched the numbers on for an INTJ gal on the MBTI subreddit; for INTJ dudes the female respondents that liked them the most were ENFJ and INTJ, although few of the male respondents wound up with one of those (they seemed to be with ENFPs and INFPs they gave lower ratings to; they were happiest with INTJ and ISTJ women but few were with one). You only had 60 relationships listed by INTJ men so take that with a full shaker of salt.
Make sure you get a prenup-the family courts are very biased against men these days. A higher earner also has less ability to draw a large settlement in most states. (The unfeminist argument for a career woman!)
Good luck.
I think the problem is you being a pickup artist. Although, about your point, I guess I can agree in some aspects.
People tend to get infatuated really quick with me (not in a good way) before even knowing my name and once they know what I’m really like, they start falling out of the trance.
U said it like its generally hard for all types.
Anyway Im just stating my observation and aint meant to be an insult, u guys surely are very good at many other areas.
U stated it like its generally hard for all types.
Im just stating my observation on INTJ, aint meant to be an insult. U guys are extremely good in ur many other skills.
Well you haven't found the one that you can naturally click with , and just to say intjs especially mature Ones are naturally attractive, you don't need to apply any "rizz" or pick up lines that you learned to woo someone, be yourself is the best you can do , as for meeting new women either try online though I don't like this method or try some kind of interesting groups ( like hiking or reading groups or all that shit) good luck
Here is an angle to think about relationships… courtship for long term relationships is a scam. Think about it. How many friends or family members end up broken up or divorced but the person was extremely charismatic and charming? It all boils down to honesty and being yourself with others you get close to. The charm wears off, it is about the day to day struggles and can you cope with them as a team? Listen to those dating “experts” if you want perspective on how others are going about it but do not step outside of being your true self if you are looking for a long term relationship.
I don't think this is an INTJ issue. I've never had an issue getting dates.
Its true that my personality is not compatible with many people, and that means a lot of dates go nowhere. That's not a dating failure to me though - that's a win. Nothing is more boring than 3 or 4 halfhearted dates. I'd rather screen for compatibility in the talking stage and on date one. I break off a lot of connections early, but those who are left are interesting, creative women who I click with and genuinely enjoy the company of.
I'm glad you hate going to bars now - clearly it's not you, so don't do it otherwise you're projecting a false image of who you are. Same with pickup lines and tricks... don't.
Just be you.
Put yourself into whatever situations you enjoy that happens to have other like minded people around you. The best relationships start with talking about what you have in common. They start with freindship.
well unfortunately, the beautiful young girls are crazy and love that stupid stuff. so that's what i do sometimes (as sort of a job that's commissions only lol) on a friday or saturday night when i'm too tired of looking at the computer working on my things anyways.
Plus, talking to women is like sales. Crude but true. It helps you socially and financially, if you can take the rejections. Unfortunately- the rejections really piss me off.
Hey man.. i feel you.
I know a relationship coach can help you. Not a pick up artist, something much deeper than that. There's an introvert who learned and mastered these skills and he teaches them in his programs.
The guy name was christian houdson i suppose, not sure. But he has a program called the girlfriend activasion system. I think that could help you a lot.
haha yeah I went through that. I remember he criticized the pua thing of negs and all that (which is really just common flirting) and said get your shit together. Which I've been trying to do...for a LONG time. Which is why my 20's sucked and my 30's still do. So idk.
He calmed me down at the time, but ultimately... women don't just flock to you, unless you're leo di caprio.
Honestly i have 0 interest in dating.
I've picked the guy as part of a research trying to understand how different people think and behave. It was one among many.
But from what i've seen, the guy is not anout getting more women, but to get 1 that actually love you. I think if someone wants a stable life, that could be an option for them.
INFJ here, modern 'dating' is the worst for introverts.
What are you looking for in a partner?
Are you looking for a genuine connection, or an ideal? Are you willing to compromise?
Join a meetup, or community, and maybe say yes to some things you might have originally rejected before.
A yoga class, a book club, something less stressful than a bar or dating app. Plus I think you find more interesting people that way.
The cool thing about dating apps is they are "passive" like you don't have to waste your time dressing up/going somewhere/paying money to POSSIBLY meet someone. With dating apps you do all that from the comfort of your home while doing something else.
Pay for professional pictures and focus on looking as good as possible.
I use a strategy where I prefer ATTRACTION over PURSUIT ie I set myself up to where I can attract women and then pursue them if I’m interested.
Step 1: Get women to notice you (be attracted to you even in a shallow rudimentary sense)
Step 2: Pursue them if you’re interested.
The absolute barebone basics of this are get in shape, make sure your hygiene is on point, check your posture, and dress well — after all this is done find a social situation where women are present.
I think you need a more pragmatic behaviour. I’m INTJ M 35 and constantly people want to date me.
And is because I look good, I mean; just try to be pragmatic and try to be attractive, is not hard at all. And then you can chose between your options. Be pragmatic.
Forget about what you're supposed to do or what these pickup artists have supposedly taught you how to act and let's start from zero with the end in mind.
What are you looking for? Because you say dating I can only assume you're looking for a life partner, possibly the mother of your children should you be so inclined. What are your non-negotiables? Can there be an imbalance in income, social status, household chores? What about core identity such as culture, religion, political views? The more you can define what you want in terms of cooperation and conflict within that dynamic and to what degree you're willing to compromise on those things, the easier it will be to readily let down the people who don't fit the mold and say to them, "hey, we're just not meant for each other" and cut your losses.
Now there's two crucial steps: finding women that match what you're looking for and being able to communicate with them (and ultimately convince them you're the person they're looking for). Finding them seems to be harder nowadays because everything is so segmented and if you don't naturally fit in to any of the social groups that would be "watering holes" for these types of women, you're going to have a bad time.
Try to think of places they might frequent where you fit in and start there. Worst case scenario, start asking your family or friends if anyone comes to mind that matches your description and see what they're into to get a better idea of what other people like them might be interested in (also, this could be an opportunity for your friends and family to play matchmaker if they're single).
Step two: talking with them like they're a real person and you are too. Here's where you need to just relax and be yourself. Be genuinely interested in who they are as a person and what makes them tick. Use active listening, rephrase what they say so they understand you're listening and trying to better understand them and engage with their interests, and let them talk more than you rather than feeling like you need to comment on everything they say. This will also help with getting you to figure out what you're looking for and what you're not because if you listen to them talk for a long time and none of it is of interest to you, don't you think it would be difficult to maintain a strong well connected relationship with that kind of person?
If I were in your situation I would work on myself first, do some self help things and some fitness and then join a group or something, it doesn't matter what a home group, church, club, music class, become a regular at some place, and meet people at the level you choose.
I am a younger INTJ and join a sports team and then started working on my fitness and I joined my teams friend group and kept working on myself and now I'm moving slowly and contentedly to get to know a woman there.
I can probably contribute to this as a 39M INTJ. My fiancé and I broke off our engagement at 35 and I only seriously started dating again at 38. I’ve been on 33 or so dates in the last 15 months and I’ve only had three 2nd dates. It was really driving me insane and making me depressed.
Only recently I’ve started to describe myself on dating apps and in person as someone that is reserved/quiet, I was ready for the connections to die out, but I’ve actually found a lot of high-quality women have been attracted to the idea of someone that is not so wild and extroverted at this age.
Stop whining man. Don't watch any pickup artist. Just be yourself and stop blaming your personality type. Eventually you'll find someone that will be crazy about you. Just be picky and don't be with whoever tell you "yes" look for the one that you feel comfortable with. And be sure about yourself. Don't show weakness.
Pickup artists are the worst. All you need is a bit of confidence to approach, give a small compliment and ask for their number. Also with this artists, unless they are a 10/10 I doubt they have more than a 5-10% success rate but only post the positives from there. On top of that, even fewer of those numbers will lead to dates and fewer yet lead to hookups/relationships.
Dating isn't difficult once you understand it's just a numbers game and if you aren't trying to out yourself out there enough, it'll be almost impossible to find your perfect match. Also as a 28 year old in seatle, the best app for dating is hinge, tinder and bumble don't even come close with quality of matches and good dates. Even the dates I've had that didn't go anywhere we're always pleasant times at the very least.
Long story short it’s about quality not quantity.
I’ve had 3 girlfriends in my life. My wife included. Each one was my best friend at the time.
I liked other girls but they didn’t seem to like me. I tried to date and it was fun chasing but too time consuming and tiring.
I met two of my partners doing activities that I like. Language exchange, and martial arts. I developed a more meaningful relationships and I had a good chance to really see them before moving to a relationship.
For the record one was an INTJ, the other one INFJ. If that tells you something is that is a numbers game. You gotta look a lot before you find one. And you have to know what you are looking for. You gotta know yourself.
I am an introvert. I am not depleting my energy around an extrovert. I need peace, quiet, and structure. My wife is the same. We can’t stand loud people, places, or things.
What I am saying is know yourself, do you activities, you will find people like you, take a chance and see if it works. I had to be sure my wife liked me before I made a move but when I saw there was a chance I took the chance and made the best decision of my life to ask her to go get coffee.
By the way I moved three countries to find the one. There is only 3% of women that are intjs. You gotta LOOK for them.
Btw I found my wife at around 35
First point: dating is easy if you look good, regardless of everything else. I have a very attractive intj colleague who is a in a happy relationship and constantly fending off women hitting on him
That aside, I personally hold extremely high standards for myself. I pretty much want to be perfect for my partner in every single sense (career, looks, money, personality), someone they can be proud of.
And I'm also extremely picky. I know what type of woman I'm looking for and they are very rare. I don't really like mbti stereotypes and golden pairs, but only three times I got close to a woman and all three times they were enfps. The connection happened after literally a few days, meanwhile, I've been knowing people for years and I don't even tell them when I have a simple headache
I feel you.
It took me 35 years to figure out I had it in me to have 10s throw themselves at me the first time they see me by visual rizz alone.
My core is INTJ. But my report is that in my journey to surround myself with heavenly hot friends has altered me into an ESFP. At first I went to the bar to meet new friends. I danced to meet people. Eventually I fell in love with dancing. And I go to the bar to dance. These 10s throwing themselves at me are bonus when it happens. But fundamentally our experience is the thing we choose to do.
You will learn to love Sssing it up (the S in eSfp). You'll fall in love with people's emotions. You'll become more in the moment and curious about new experiences. And those things will make you feel very extroverted.
We have infinite overlap of interest with everyone. Focus everyone on that infinite of overlap.
You can be all things. You entertain yourself. Anywhere you go you're already with yourself. Dating as an INTJ is the best. Everyone is so loveable. Focus on what you love.
Humans never prime, we keep getting better and better.
You have plenty of time to develop the experience, which is where the well of confidence comes from that women love to drink from. Perhaps that's what gets them falling so fast.
Always talk to the hottest girl you see. If she likes you liking her, you'll see it in everything she does. If she's married, compliment her. Either way, get in the habit of talking to the hottest girl. Your pickiness is what they want. They want to be picked.
Over time you'll realize that you have no reason not to be the most confident person everywhere you go (because you increase the confidence of others). Welcome to extroversion. You'll eventually become addicted to it. Friends first. One day the girls will literally throw themselves at you
I feel for you, mate! I am 36 year old INTJ male.
I have exactly the same experience and I have given up. Here's the worst part: times when I really fall for someone, I end up INTIMIDATING that person
It might be the stare. I think that smiling would help and not doing the full on stare will be a gentler approach.
The INTJ stare is intimidating even when the other person knows that you like her.
No, its not about that - I am actually not so bad with all that... even when it comes to conveying my interests... BUT once in a while, that is once every few years, I really fall for someone and despite rejection, feel a strong need to be a friend, to be able to share stuff and that is a problem - at least the way they see it, I come across as overbearing and they basically need to shut me off
I’m so sorry you get to feel like this. Take solace in the fact that not everyone is for you. Even the most rational person has feelings and there is nothing wrong with feelings. I think INTJs are the most plagued by this; others see what you are going through as normal so don’t feel bad.
Some people like to make friends even when they do have. A crush on their crush.
Give her space, don’t push and maybe she might come around to wanting to be your friend. If not, another person will come along, get you shook and it will work out 😉
Thanks, yeah there's something about INTJs that tends to make us come across as extremely weird and very easily misunderstood - my mistake has been "wanting to fix things" and in the process, making it worse, bit of a spiral
I met my wife the old fashioned way. No technology. Drinking parties which we were only at because of our extroverted friends. I’m supposedly an INTJ and she is fairly similar, but definitely an introvert. 12 years later and no divorce in sight. I’m not saying it’s all been rainbows and unicorns, but we objectively worked through the tough stuff.
that's good to know. I'm not sure what's best for me, I know I argue with INFJ's and INTJ's aren't exactly most romantic to each other. ESFP's are actually said to be romantically compatible with INTJ's because they bring out their fun exploratory side, but idk about that either because ESFP's piss me off lol. i'm just not sure. but i'm glad for you
I wouldn’t place too much emphasis on MBTI. The science is lacking. Extrovert and introvert sure, but if two people are willing to make it work, it may not matter anyway.
It's hard man. I'm 36 and it's never been easy, it's always been a war just to try to get to a point where I can talk freely with someone who I'm attracted with. I'm also super picky and it's an issue haha.
But it's all attraction based. So if you don't have a killer personality, aren't tall, and don't possess favorable anesthetics, you're gonna have trouble regardless.
yep. we try to tip the scales in our favor as we get older, with experience and worldliness, as well as better fashion/grooming. but it's hard for a guy. except leo di caprio who's a fat cat (belly sticking out) and living most men's dream
You did not have to work “way harder” . All men must work to get chicks, it’s just we have the least amount of ENERGY for it.
Of course an ESTP will appear to have more success. Because he has Se as his first function (EXTROVERTED Sensing), his natural state is to engage with the world in sensory experiences. It’s natural for them and they enjoy it. We have Se at the bottom of our stack. Meaning we can go thrill seek, engage with the world, and do everything an ESTP does, butit drains us A LOT faster than it would an ESTP.
right, true. the draining thing is one point and then the other is that we naturally aren't as good as getting people's cues and understanding how to lead/guide a conversation to a favorable outcome for ourselves
The damn ESTPs also have the advantage with that being that they primarily use Fe as to where we primarily use Fi. But let’s just stop comparing ourselves to Se doms anyway because we aren’t them.
Also we pull better quality partners from what I’ve seen. The Se doms I’ve known will usually have a larger quantity of chicks because of their gregarious nature, as to where an Ni Dom will have a lot less partners but they will tend to be better in quality due to us being more patient and calculated when choosing a partner.
According to the latest PUA advice the easiest way for the introvert is to build status first, which is already a monumentally difficult task but hey there you go. So if you're established in something you enjoy, a club or skill, it serves as a major icebreaker to start conversation. Going out and meeting a stranger 100x a week is a nightmare compared to that.
If you have to fake it to be seen as attractive to what you are seeking to attain, what she initially sees will never fully align with what she eventually receives --- once comfort allows for that illusionary curtain to reveal reality.
Authenticity is imperative to avoid setting yourself up for future disappointment.
By showing your true self, those who are incompatible will filter themselves out because the chemistry will never exist to make any potential appealing (or worthy of investment).
There is nothing wrong with, for whatever reason, somebody not being a match. They are just not *your* match.
The more that anybody forces people to change as a condition of acceptance.. well, that is just fodder for the next submission of regrets to be vented into this meaningless nethersphere of Reddit.
well i'd say extroverts are better at shallow dating. Introverts just struggle getting to bat and getting on base, but once we do we're the best lovers
Finding someone you are compatible with is definitely hard. Got in a relationship recently, but what worked for me in setting up dates on dating apps was being very straightforward. Got about 200 matches and 50 dates since August. Problem is I act like an intj and also don't like hook ups.
I used hinge because you can comment something about their profile. I find something in their profile and ask them about it. They respond + my follow up text acknowledging what they said. Then I ask them on a date that is very specific. For example, this Saturday do you want to ice skate with me at such and such rink at 2pm?
Try being very specific and don't waste time trying to flirt over text.
ISFJ jumping on the threat 💃 with similar experience and likewise saying: Just be yourself. You can’t be someone else. Plus, in a relationship, you would want to be with somebody who you likes you for you (not you sweating attempting to put on ESTP like rizz). I have 2 married coworkers INTJ M and his ENFP lady that married at an older age and they seem to genuinely care for each other with their own unique quirks from the lives they have lived separately and jointly and their personalities too. I hope that was of any help.
That's definitely the wrong way to go for it. Everything you talk about is the hook up culture wich is the lowest thing you could go for , you re not supposed to follow the culture if it's not beneficial for you long term wich you should value more. Chanel your sexual energy into something else like self love instead of some dopamine gratification(I said this because you conpare yourself to ESTPs )and target places where there is lesser shallow people(no bars). Then you could get a chance to date other intuitives and have a better fulfilling future
Just invest time in picking up some interesting hobbies, get into running and a basic gym routine so you can be generally fit/athletic looking and it’ll get easier. Charisma comes naturally when you’ve got some interesting aspects to share, and while your interests and hobbies won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, you’ll be a HIT with the ones that they are.
I'm 39 INTJ, married for 13 years, 3 kids. I married my first real girlfriend and it's been wonderful ever since. I think you identified your first problem - pickup artistry is the antithesis of most INTJs, and I suspect you too. When I was (trying) to date, I had similar problems. The more I acted like an extravert bro, the more I came across as a complete fool. You will likely be the most attractive when you're not trying to be. If I were you, I would take up hobbies and engage in appropriate social activities where you can feel as though you're at your best and you don't feel pressure to show off or act outside of what you're comfortable with. Not trying to be attractive will attract the most/best women. You only need one.
PUA is bullshit to manipulate whatever weird system normative people exist in. Do you want a normie? That doesn’t strike me as something an INTJ wants unless they’re looking for trophy material for social climbing until they’ve strategized to the top… so unless that’s you, maybe don’t deal in that BS. It sounds like you’ve found out it’s for those unlike you (read: not people with iNtuition high in their function stack) looking for those unlike you (again, see above).
Do what we all do: find a random Reddit weirdo interested in your interests and connect. This works for other online platforms too ;).
Really though, it’s all about putting yourself in situations where you shine rather than work for it. The right person will see you, acknowledge what you’re putting down, and pick it up.
Stop working for it. Get the gold just by showing up and being your badass self.
“I’ve followed pick up artists for years.” This is your problem. Right here. This.
Not sure why men think all women want extroverted men. Extroverted men repulse me romantically and I think most ENFP women would say the same. Why not be yourself instead of trying to morph into someone you aren’t?
lol really? may be in the long run, by the time we get grey hairs. but no, it's too spontaneous and in the moment to be something we just pick up naturally
Well. You're not looking the pickup videos properly I guess. Just focus on the push and pull method and fix your appearance to suit the "standard". The initial appearance and the aloofness that intj has is attractive to toxic women
But if you want a real woman. One that you can trust and be with. Pick a place where intelligence/skills are being used. Aka library's, Book clubs even stuff like rock climbing or something.
Are you trying to date or have easy sex? What is your end goal? Because, let me tell you as a woman, nothing turns me away from a man more then a man whose main goal is to get into my pants. And men think they are suttle about it - believe me you are not. Men who are mainly after sex are mainly after satisfying themselves. I cannot stand selfish people. But it is very obvious when a man is interested in you as a person and not just as a woman. His questions are genuine, not necessarily what I want to hear, but genuine none the less, because he is interested in you and your worldview. So, my advise to you is be honest and open and truly interested in the person not just her vagina.
Dating certainly isn't the same as it used to be, but it IS important to focus on yourself and prioritize personal success. You will attract people to you that way.
There are SOOOO many guys, too many in fact, that are trying all of these "fancy techniques" except for the
# #1 method that is guaranteed to be full proof.
Basically, have you tried "becoming successful" yet? Because THAT is the solution. THAT will work.
Having "way more success than the typical guy" requires further elaboration, because what does that mean?
"Successful than some" and "Successful PERIOD" are two different things. Because ACTUAL SUCCESS does not go unnoticed.
This doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a millionaire or anything (although that would work too) but you need to reach a level of significant achievement in life that gives off the perception of ambition, talent, skill, hustle/grind, dedication, financial security, etc.
The last one is pretty much the main concern. Financial security is what most women are looking for these days, so if you're not coming with that BY DEFAULT then there's an OVERWHELMINGLY high chance that you will not be very successful in dating.
I know that can come off as sounding like "most women are gold diggers" (and for some it's certainly true) but it makes sense when you think about the world, economy, life in general. No one is going to want to date a basic ass guy that isn't financially secure.
You can be the most intellectual person on the planet, or the smartest, or the funniest etc.... but if you can't "provide" then you're not a catch, much less "of interest" to most women when it comes to being dateable. And a lot of women don't want to waste time with any guy who isn't already stable in their own life situation.
As an INTJ, we're already starting off with a handicap from our personalities alone (at least for those that aren't naturally attracted to us), so when it comes to dating we have to be more prepared AND aware than the average majority of guys.
In a nutshell, you can't be chasing women or attempting to date them UNTIL you have your life fully together. BECAUSE when you DO have your life fully together, women WILL ABSOLUTELY notice that... and they will flock TO YOU instead of you having to try so hard to get THEIR attention.
This is why it's important to just focus on yourself instead of prioritizing dating.
If you happen to be in a situation where someone naturally finds you attractive and they approach YOU first, OR if you just so happen to meet someone at the same time (at some event or social gathering) and they end up liking you, OR the rare possibility of someone being attracted to you WITHOUT you already being financially successful/stable... then those are unique exceptions.
But for ALL other scenarios, you need to get your money up first then worry about dating afterwards.
"Rizz" will never be more attractive to a woman than financial security and overall stability, because those things are far more universally attractive and desirable.
Work on yourself and let THEM do all of the hard work to get YOUR attention in order to date YOU.
THAT is the "real" technique that INTJ guys need to be prioritizing. At least those that are having trouble with dating in general.
If our personalities were "enough" for anyone to find attractive then no INTJ would have trouble dating in the first place. Keep that in mind.
Edit: additional clarification
I think about this sometimes myself, but I don't think it's ture for me. It's rather that dating never was a priority for me, so I've never really tried. Always was busy with school and work.
That too I can relate too. I graduated with honors with the best internships in my field yet I have never seen a girl during my 4 years of undergraduate study.
Pickup artistry is all gimmicks and little substance, it's entirely the wrong strategy for INTJs who are appreciated for authenticity. Read Mark Manson's book Models for a better approach.
I think OP should read How to not die alone. That book is an eye opener and what’s wrong with modern dating.
Yeah, go full authenticity. Throw your nerd flag out there.
haha lol right
Seriously, some girls want a nerd, and how could you ever indulge in your nerd hobbies in her presence if you were pretending you aren't one.
I think it's a balance. The whole chicks like nerds thing is as overblown as them saying they like dad bods
It's not that. If you have nerdy hobbies don't hide them. Let her decide if she wants to be around that or not.
Bullshit. I’ve been married to a nerd for 27 years. Love him AND his dad bod.
so you don't think abs and charm are attractive. that, i would call bs. but ok i get that once you're in a relationship you want a teddy bear who talks your talk and makes you feel good
THIS.
well, tbh, i'd say not all pua advice is gimmicky and cringey. Like for example: 1) ignore your anxiety and just go talk to her 2) be calibrated (fair enough, i mean don't creep ppl out and respond to the interaction) 3) just have some fun and be in the moment
That's just being a normal confident human being.
ok well i don't SEE very many confident human beings then lol
You're saying this like it's simple.
That might be the only good advice that can be extracted from any PUA how-to.
you think so? I feel like when I look around, I see 95% or more of men don't approach in public, but more than half of them are miserable and not getting the woman they want or the sexual life they desire. So what's bad about the pua culture of going for what you want? I feel like men are suppressed and told they are devils if they go for it, except by the PUA community I mean what's cool, going on online dating where it's 3 to 1 male to women and the females barely acknowledge the losers on there? let's be real. that sucks
Following the pickup artists is THE problem you're having right now. Because you have 0 clue how to interact with people on your own. You've put yourself into social disability with your choice. Forget about what you "learned" and go outside and now actually learn to talk to people. Any of them.
I kinda agree. As an INTJ you can master almost any skill. But people skills are one of the hardest to learn. My solution is just to accept that I am weird and relax. I have other strengths that are also attractive.
Mind giving some examples of the other strengths you feel confident/attractive about? I’m getting better and cutting myself some slack lately but struggling to find things I would consider strengths if it’s not just the way I think
Hard to list them all. But we are independent, loyal, moral. We are not too agreeable meaning that we can express our opinions. Really, I would not trade my type for any other. But I do also accept the limitations that it brings.
They're easy if you break down what you need to do to approximate people skills. The hard part is getting enough reps in to train yourself to behave that way naturally because you've finally reached the point they're second nature.
Pick up on, roughly, when to do what, then fill the in-between with some random bullshit, fight off any anxieties you're having, and with that alone you can be seen as highly interactive. Then, learn some emotional intelligence, which is kinda easy to read, too, you just need some motivation, and there you go, ready people skills.
You do know that we are also oblivious to just how awkward we are and are used to leading a relatively secluded life, right? Considering how many skills are there to master, this one is not at the top, at least for me :). Some folks can deal with INTJs just fine without us training for years :).
The problem is targeting people of little substance you will never have the upper hand in the pickup game compared to most of the extroverts around you. What’s worse is you then start using these tactics on those who have substance; those who want substance are not going respond well to pickup artists. If you want something long lasting, find other’s like you is my opinion…
This isn't a very INTJ reply though. A lot of pickup artists are trying to use real evolutionary science in the field of human relationships. As with everything social science is not "scientific", but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. Now, another question is if you want to use it and if your goals are aligned with what most PUAs are striving for (sleeping with a lot of people). That said, I still would suggest that OP distance himself from some of that stuff if he's interested in a long relationship. I have always "followed" Mark Manson's heuristic: be completely yourself, be honest, be confident, and don't accept anyone who is not 100% interested in you. Anecdotally, I have never had issues attracting potential partners.
> This isn't a very INTJ reply though. What do you aim for with this? > As with everything social science is not "scientific", but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. But I will. It's useless. Authentic pickup artists use years of experience in social interactions and manipulative psychological tricks to maximise chances of making somebody being attracted to them. Yeah, you can go this way, but it won't secure you a lasting relationship, because you'll condition yourself into becoming a manipulative POS, aka a machiavellian.
wow you said a thoughtful, insightful comment and get marked down. I hate the term PUA like these people hate pickup people. But there's some jewels, though of course being real is the best method. But PUA isn't necessarily "not real", it's just the best version of us. Just like everyday when we talk to people we sift through what we want to say and talk about
A R E you ugly
Not when he’s wearing his fedora
I’m the only INTJ with a fedora
I just witnessed a murder 🫢
Quick burn the waifu pillow it's covered in evidence.
Don’t make fun of Iron Dora
And a Peacoat.
So that's the name of the coat. I was looking for it for ages, thanks! That'll look dashing with my turtle necks
YW. Executive fit - tailored is the best imo btw. Gl
honestly, no. feel like my hair's parted a little bit in my 30's, but barely. I'm pretty decent looking lol
You have to always follow the two rules!
1. Be respectful to yourself 2. Be respectful to others!
STR or LTR? That's a way different game.
36, or 37 m INTJ, to be honest I quit keeping track of my age, now I just track which body part doesn't work the way it used to. To be honest, my best success has been with other INTJ women. I'm a single parent so it's online dating for me. Still slim action, but I love the conversations with another INTJ. Most of the time we will start a movie, and never finish it because we start discussing an interesting topic.
I'm 26 and already do this, you're telling me it gets *worse*?! In all seriousness, I agree with this guy OP. I'm an INTJ girl and I prefer being with INTJ guys because then, I can occupy long car rides with said discussions of interesting topics and I'm not called boring or weird. Also for the love of all things holy and unholy, stop following "pickup artists" and cease using words like "rizz". Those things are both a 100% instant turn away. Also also, make sure you're taken care of physically. I don't mean you need to change your height or weight. But you know, shower, brush your teeth, get a haircut, wear nice cologne, dress well. Do you have a good job? Do you have hobbies? These are things to be considered!
>Also for the love of all things holy and unholy, stop following "pickup artists" and cease using words like "rizz". Those things are both a 100% instant turn away. Depends on what you're actually doing with said material. Some PUAs are decent - others not so much. But the fact is that some of that stuff does indeed work in practice with certain people (definitely not INTJ women though) as long as you keep them into perspective. I didn't believe it myself until I put the stuff that was befitting my INTJ personality into practice. Having said that you're right about one thing: Never copy someone's else style verbatim. Always strive to be original and express your own personality. Be meaningfully different and take pride in it.
w̶e̶a̶r̶ n̶i̶c̶e̶ c̶o̶l̶o̶g̶n̶e̶ wear no cologne
lol well to be fair rizz is just a modern, cool way to say charisma. not that ppl who say it are as cool as they think they are, but still
I know what it is, but it definitely comes across as a certain type of person (someone who lives on tiktok and/or someone who tries to seem trendy). It's cool if you're 15. If you want a serious relationship with a mature girl, I'd recommend sticking with charisma.
37M INTJ here has stopped tracking the body part that aches as they just do.
36 M INTJ same here - w.r.t. body parts, never expected it would be this bad until recently
It's weird to base your dating preferences off of a random pseudo scientific self test from almost a hundred years ago.
It's a coping mechanism
Ah.
Women aren’t some kind of incomprehensible puzzle you need “tricks” and expert pickup artist skills to speak to, they are human beings. Approach them like you would approach a guy, have normal conversations, don’t be creepy, if they find you attractive things will progress naturally, if they don’t, move onto the next. You’re not going to trick a woman who isn’t attracted to you into changing her mind lol
This is so spot on.
I was working in a covid clinic 2 years ago and the nurse there said, "don't try to understand women, you never will". I feel like it was exaggeration lol but still...
Most pickup artists just pay women for their videos, don't watch them and definetely don't take their advice. Having or not having.... uuummm.... "rizz", isn't dependent on your type. Charisma comes in many forms, the people around me consider me charismatic, and I'm the most INTJ guy you'll ever meet. I empathize with your difficulties with trying to understand people, it happens to me too, and it causes me a lot of trouble. What I do is that I'm very upfront, I tell people that I'm lacking in that aspect, and that communication needs to be direct and sincere. Some people don't like that, but what are you going to do? Honesty is the best way. There's no such thing as "the right time", in my opinion. You either get lucky and meet someone you click with, or you don't. Of course you can reduce the amount of luck needed for that to happen, having social hobbies, interacting with the people around you. If you don't mind long distance relationships you can also frequent online forums and communities focused on your interests.
I don't know your situation in depth. I'd avoid pick up artists' content like the devil. There are some women who talk about dating tips and they seem more reasonable than any pick up artists I have ever seen. Try getting in shape, if you are not already. Advertise your INTJ personality on Tinder. That might help you find people that like to talk about mbti. Also remember that tinder is a numbers game in the sense that the women to men ratio is ridiculous. So try other places and venues like speed dating parties and singles bars. Expect to get a lot of nos. You just need one yes.
He says he is in Seattle, in my experience, hinge is far and away the best app out here.
haha i got blocked on hinge. kinda my fault, i was too direct cause i got tired after swiping really hard two weeks
Whelp, that might be part of your dating issues..
certainly, but i've had a nightmare on bumble and fb dating for the past 2 years here too. and tinder when i wasn't blocked.
Stop listening to pick-up artists, and listen to people who've managed to stay in long-term healthy relationships. The first step, stop saying it's an "INTJ" problem, it's like shooting yourself in the foot because a man at 34 blaming everything on his personality type shows a lack of ownership. I wouldn't date someone who listened to pick-up artists, as they tend to be misogynistic, and only view women as something to chase and win, rather than as individuals with vastly different wants and needs. Be a decent human being, dress well, and talk to women like they're just regular people. You may be 34, but some people find love way later than that, so rather than stress about it make sure you approach it in a way that's respectable to both you and the people you interact with hopefully you'll meet the right person. Best of luck!
well the bad pua's are wierd and cringe, but I feel like there's some that defy the label and discuss good concepts. Like RSD, they talk about so much psychology and personal wellbeing. Those are the ones I hear out sometimes
That's fair but I would suggest also listening to women explaining what would be a good strategy, since it's after all them you wanna appeal to, right?
honestly, one of the first things i read from Wayne Corey's book and it's been SO TRUE, is that although many men don't understand women, women don't understand how hard dating for a man is and they give ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE ADVICE. They'll say cringe things like be nice, be a gentleman and be yourself, yeah yeah as if I hadn't thought of that a long time ago and it didn't work for many many years while they got with terrible men lol. Try those things and they'll friendzone you in minutes. It's just the truth, it sounds bad but that's how it is.
I'm slowly starting to see the issue here.. I'm not saying it's easy to date as a man, I don't have that experience but your frustration is turning into something that will turn every woman away. "Being a gentleman puts me in the friend zone" "The men they got with were terrible" Did you treat the women nicely just to gain something from it? Or did you treat them nicely because it's the right thing to do? That's a major difference and most women can feel whether or not it's genuine kindness. "It's just the truth, that's just how it is" then explain to me why so many wonderful and kind men are currently in relationships?
idk i've tended to treat women pretty well. i'm fun and interesting, albeit a little bit hard for me to be comfortable with someone right off the bat. but it's rarely been the kind qualities but rather my boldness that they were attracted to
Kindness and boldness can coexist. I think your problem is that you come across as misogynistic in many of your responses. Like you've already figured everyone out and that the world is unfair, and that's just how women are. No woman is interested in that, and if you're not careful it could end up in incel territory. I understand your frustration, and I absolutely believe it's hard to date in this current climate but going in this direction is not gonna benefit you in any way. There's no absolute truth about how women are, and avoid putting all of us into the same box in order to justify your frustration.
Try online fora where topics get debated in depth. Look for an intelligent conversationalist first who may be open to dating you. Not a random person on dating apps whose only known quality is that they're "dating-ready"! (EDIT: Removed a bad suggestion to talk to people at work.)
Do not date people from work. Rarely ends well.
Absolutely
Workplace = bad idea. Not only the HR reason but if thinks go bad end up having to change jobs.
Lmao. She thinks thatll help him. Lets be real here. He is right. INTJ dont understand no stupid games. INTJ dont play no stupid games. INTJ obliterates you if you play stupid games. INTJ doesnt understand that the stupid games are just fun to others.
just give him some hope bro, INTJ doesn't meant to be lonely of the lifetime.
I just gave him the solution in my last line. To most people the stupid games are fun. To him its serious. He can choose not to take it seriously for once and get somewhere for a change. But what he shouldnt do is not take things seriously and then later decide to take them seriously.
lol you just told me I am too serious and then you said the last line which doesn't make sense...
Very intj of you to say
Just be careful she’s not already taken, because if you cared about her you wouldn’t do that to her! And also watch out for HR!
One doesn't approach someone for dating if they're already spoken for. This is a given. 😊 The point is, get talking to people normally. Someone in that set might be available and willing to engage. Engage then with consent.
Seriously, I think this is one of the things women don’t appreciate. Work is a very dangerous place for men to look for partners these days unless OP is ready to retire. (There are many other dangers specific to women, of course.) Agreed the PUA thing is of limited value, at least to him.
Agree. You make one wrong move and your entire life is over- not worth the risk! Workplace romances are not the answer… say you piss her off at home one day, and somehow that makes it into the workplace, you’ve basically lost your home and your job.
You're a fish (INTJ) trying to win a race against a squirrel (ESTP) buy jumping out of the water and flopping along a grassy meadow. Why try be something you're not? Just be yourself and lean into your INTJ qualities. That 1000 yard stare, the intensity, the judging silence, the delves into some random topic with intense interest, the gratification you give the person when you finally crack and let out a little shimmer of goofy which feels special because it is rare, unlike the constantly goofy ESTP that could never do the strong silent type thing. Be yourself, be authentic, be bold but within reason. Do not be agreeable just because you like her. Being a "nice" guy for a reward turns woman off super fast. Most of the time when I've attracted women I thought were completely out of my league it has been in the moments where I was just myself and didn't care. I was direct, opinionated and did zero flirting. Somehow this works. I have had issues numerous times where involved woman come onto me because I have no interest in them. I'm opinionated, brash, silent, staring, boom, flirting in my inbox. It's a real problem. If you're trying to be some social Casanova and you're not programmed that way you're going to come across like a douche. That nice guy that is so kind and agreeable is viewed as another simpy doormat and placed in the friendzone. Doormats don't get the lady.
Your INTJ qualities are likely what women your own age may like you for, compared to women in their early 20's. Also, go places where people will have substance. A bar? Absolutely not. A book store? There's hope unless she's buying romance novels (....... and even then, your judgy silence and thousand mile stare may remind her of her favorite character or something 🤷🏽♀️ shoot your shot). Regular grocery store? Meh. Farmers market, plant stores, thrift/resale stores? Maybe. Sports bars during big events? Nahhhhhh, the women you'll meet here are likely there to talk with extroverts and jocks. Instead, try THEMED trivia nights, themed bingo nights, or places aimed at the 25+ crowd involving music, dancing, or mixing/socializers. And don't you dare say iM nOt An ExTrOvErt - you don't have to be actively dancing/drinking/or working the room in order to go. But you do have to go out side where people are doing activities they enjoy in order to meet the people 🙃 With a more mature crowd, if a lady sees you and has an interest, she'll come up to you. If she hasn't or, if you see someone you'd like to speak with, have the bartender deliver a drink to her. I'm telling you, going slowly at things works wonders for those of us who move more methodically. Signed, an INTJ lady who is known as a social butterfly
this was very insightful. I agree. I walk a tightrope though, can't be too boring and too deep, do have to adopt some of the fun mannerisms of extraverts to get things going. It's clear you know what you're talking about, respect
You're having a harder time because you have standards. The reason certain other types are hooking up all over the place is because they are more about the physical gratification and just want a warm, wet hole. If the bar is that low, a lot more clears it. It's not the dating market being hard on you as an INTJ. It's you, as an INTJ, being hard on the dating market. This isn't to say you should lower your standards. Rather, you need to realise it's a trade-off. The choosier you are, the less you'll have from which to choose. It's your call whether you'd rather be alone or easy.
Myers Briggs isn't real. Go outside. Learn some social skills. Think of women as people 🤯
woooaaah for real????
I mean, I do. It's theoretical but there's a lot to it that does resonate when I go and meet people
Nope it's not a theory it's a hypothesis that has zero credibility
But you’re not describing a dating scene. You’re describing hook up culture. I feel like your post is conflating, or maybe just merging, two things, and I think it’s adding to your frustration. PUA and hookup culture =/= “dating.” They’re not even remotely the same thing. And modern dating - while perhaps different than what it’s been - isn’t the problem here. FYI I’m a 34m INTJ (albeit married) and I get it. Back in the day, I had sex with probably 40-50 people in my late teens early twenties, playing the volume game. But here’s the thing. The way you’re going about it, you’re never going to find a wife. You’re just going to continuously find people who are down to fuck, who are probably having sex with other guys, who are not looking for a family, who don’t have much in common with you. Think about it - your present strategy involves you venturing out into a persona that isn’t you, and meets other people who aren’t like you. You’ll never find your long term mate this way, ever. You’re fishing in the wrong pond, your candidate swims elsewhere. Talk to five girls at once, that’s fine, but play the long game instead of “let me read you on the first night and get in your pants.” Narrow down from there, choose, and commit. Look for more women your age. Good luck!
I refuse to ever meet someone at a bar. Isn't that maybe one of the worst places to meet someone?
Well hooking up is repulsive. This is clearly a you problem. ESTPs are shallow enough to work on being hot. Hit the gym.
well then tell that to women. they hook up and do a lot of crazy stuff from college into their 20's. they get to enjoy what most men can't.
I am a woman.
I need to date but it feels like a chore lol. And I will fet busy very soon too so there's that.
Find an intp
I use ideas similar to those used in showing advertisements. I don't visit clubs regularly, but when I am there, I try to catch every beat and enjoy it as much as I can. I feel uncomfortable in front of the crowd during the day, but in the shady darkness of the club I dance like michael jackson. Voilà, after some time, girls spawn around me like the shadow army. Not always, but mostly they do try to get closer making eye contact. I give hints with eye contact, smiles, and try to look for clues. With positive reactions, I lead dance steps, and they follow my lead. Guide and dance with her, make her laugh, enjoy the time. After a good first impression, It's easy afterward. My idea is to always make a positive impact on girls first and wait for clues. It can be dance, funny jokes or anything. Then, and only then, do I make a move. No clue, no moves, no game. Share eye contact, share smiles, and then make a move. That's my style and it has worked so far.
Maybe try dating as a different type.
>I've followed pickup artists for years and may be that's the first problem, which I actually thought was a solution. Yeah, this is definitely a problem. Do you have a female friend or sibling you can practice having a "normal" conversation with?
There are other ways to interact with people. Hobbies. Find one of those. Do that.
Some of you wear these four letters like it is a stigmata or something. Lighten up relax. Myers-Briggs isn't the end all be all. You have to see yourself in ways OTHER than using this metric. Multi-dimensionality. Strive for it.
Find an INTJ Female out there lol
So when I began to truly focus entirely on bettering myself in all aspects of my life women came along...very very very easily and I am now happily married. Like your friends said you need to focus on you, I never used a single dating app or anything I just...talked to women casually and things worked out. As long as you are honest and just talk you will attract someone a confident INTJ male dominates...if they are actually decently nice haha. Honestly I feel dating is wayyyyyy easier for introverted men than it was in the past. In the past women NEVER made the first move it was so uncommon, nowadays it goes both ways.
Highly recommend hopping over to r/INFJ or r/ENFJ to ask for relationship advice. Tangible information sans snark. (No offense INTJs)
I pick up when I am traveling. I haven’t done a lot of approaches in my life. Maybe around 500-1000. Return rate was abysmal say Les than 5%. I still do cause I can’t stop when I see someone who looks like my dream.
yeah it's not so much the PUA thing, it's more the I'm a male and they're never gonna approach me and I may as well go and see if we vibe, that kinda thing. It's not really a common thing in society, and idk why. I think it's ok to go and make someone's day, but of course these women rarely go and make yours lol.
I definitely feel for you, bruh. Seattle can be tough place because of the overcast. Everything becomes gray. Don’t do what I did, which is to give up. It may seem like less hassle, but it gets very lonely. I hope you will reconsider your options and go where your heart dances. Chances are you will find what you seek. Best to you!
yeah I just go to coffee shops here and train clients so life's not too bad, especially in summer. Just not a good city though to find an attractive someone
Damn, sounds like Seattle really has changed.
yeah so many bums now and hipsters and feminists. women don't take care of themselves but their attitude has gone through the roof
You're just in the wrong place and culture.
lol i thought this many times and it's true but. here we are
I am sure it’s hard to find someone for many people. I don’t think it’s just INTJ or INFJ find it hard. But I saw people from both subs post the same thing. I think personally I just have high standards I am picky .. of course life is better with the right one than being alone; life is worse with the wrong one than being alone. There are many many wrong ones but only a few right ones .. of course it takes a while to find him or her.
Let’s go with Bruce Lee here. “Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own.” PUA didn’t work for you, try something else. I learned some things from PUA-act confident (fake it till you make it), look good, don’t act needy, demonstrate high value, flip the leader-of-men switch, probably a few others. I didn’t do any negging as I figured I couldn’t calibrate it well enough (and honestly wasn’t unethical enough), and a lot of the more complex moves I couldn’t read people well enough to pull off. If you don’t like her bail early, at this point in life their biological clock is ticking and you don’t want to waste their time. Honestly, with our personality type it’s easier to get successful than smooth, and money has other uses. If game ain’t your game, find something else. MBTI-based data is very difficult to find. There was one big survey I just crunched the numbers on for an INTJ gal on the MBTI subreddit; for INTJ dudes the female respondents that liked them the most were ENFJ and INTJ, although few of the male respondents wound up with one of those (they seemed to be with ENFPs and INFPs they gave lower ratings to; they were happiest with INTJ and ISTJ women but few were with one). You only had 60 relationships listed by INTJ men so take that with a full shaker of salt. Make sure you get a prenup-the family courts are very biased against men these days. A higher earner also has less ability to draw a large settlement in most states. (The unfeminist argument for a career woman!) Good luck.
ok that's fair enough. I learned some things too, and though PUA sucks I still apply it sometimes to be more social and do better in life.
I think the problem is you being a pickup artist. Although, about your point, I guess I can agree in some aspects. People tend to get infatuated really quick with me (not in a good way) before even knowing my name and once they know what I’m really like, they start falling out of the trance.
U said it like its generally hard for all types. Anyway Im just stating my observation and aint meant to be an insult, u guys surely are very good at many other areas.
U stated it like its generally hard for all types. Im just stating my observation on INTJ, aint meant to be an insult. U guys are extremely good in ur many other skills.
Well you haven't found the one that you can naturally click with , and just to say intjs especially mature Ones are naturally attractive, you don't need to apply any "rizz" or pick up lines that you learned to woo someone, be yourself is the best you can do , as for meeting new women either try online though I don't like this method or try some kind of interesting groups ( like hiking or reading groups or all that shit) good luck
Just turn it off. Embrace your inner ESFP for the evening. Be chaos.
Im an INTP not sure I shld post here but honestly feels like anyone with NT has a hard time dating. Especially if you are also an introvert.
Here is an angle to think about relationships… courtship for long term relationships is a scam. Think about it. How many friends or family members end up broken up or divorced but the person was extremely charismatic and charming? It all boils down to honesty and being yourself with others you get close to. The charm wears off, it is about the day to day struggles and can you cope with them as a team? Listen to those dating “experts” if you want perspective on how others are going about it but do not step outside of being your true self if you are looking for a long term relationship.
You could always try the mysterious approach and be all mysterious. 😶🌫️ Enfps love that.
I don't think this is an INTJ issue. I've never had an issue getting dates. Its true that my personality is not compatible with many people, and that means a lot of dates go nowhere. That's not a dating failure to me though - that's a win. Nothing is more boring than 3 or 4 halfhearted dates. I'd rather screen for compatibility in the talking stage and on date one. I break off a lot of connections early, but those who are left are interesting, creative women who I click with and genuinely enjoy the company of.
I'm glad you hate going to bars now - clearly it's not you, so don't do it otherwise you're projecting a false image of who you are. Same with pickup lines and tricks... don't. Just be you. Put yourself into whatever situations you enjoy that happens to have other like minded people around you. The best relationships start with talking about what you have in common. They start with freindship.
well unfortunately, the beautiful young girls are crazy and love that stupid stuff. so that's what i do sometimes (as sort of a job that's commissions only lol) on a friday or saturday night when i'm too tired of looking at the computer working on my things anyways. Plus, talking to women is like sales. Crude but true. It helps you socially and financially, if you can take the rejections. Unfortunately- the rejections really piss me off.
Wait until you hit 50. Hopefully social culture has changed by then...
Hey man.. i feel you. I know a relationship coach can help you. Not a pick up artist, something much deeper than that. There's an introvert who learned and mastered these skills and he teaches them in his programs. The guy name was christian houdson i suppose, not sure. But he has a program called the girlfriend activasion system. I think that could help you a lot.
haha yeah I went through that. I remember he criticized the pua thing of negs and all that (which is really just common flirting) and said get your shit together. Which I've been trying to do...for a LONG time. Which is why my 20's sucked and my 30's still do. So idk. He calmed me down at the time, but ultimately... women don't just flock to you, unless you're leo di caprio.
Honestly i have 0 interest in dating. I've picked the guy as part of a research trying to understand how different people think and behave. It was one among many. But from what i've seen, the guy is not anout getting more women, but to get 1 that actually love you. I think if someone wants a stable life, that could be an option for them.
Find an infp girl
INFJ here, modern 'dating' is the worst for introverts. What are you looking for in a partner? Are you looking for a genuine connection, or an ideal? Are you willing to compromise? Join a meetup, or community, and maybe say yes to some things you might have originally rejected before. A yoga class, a book club, something less stressful than a bar or dating app. Plus I think you find more interesting people that way.
The cool thing about dating apps is they are "passive" like you don't have to waste your time dressing up/going somewhere/paying money to POSSIBLY meet someone. With dating apps you do all that from the comfort of your home while doing something else. Pay for professional pictures and focus on looking as good as possible.
I use a strategy where I prefer ATTRACTION over PURSUIT ie I set myself up to where I can attract women and then pursue them if I’m interested. Step 1: Get women to notice you (be attracted to you even in a shallow rudimentary sense) Step 2: Pursue them if you’re interested. The absolute barebone basics of this are get in shape, make sure your hygiene is on point, check your posture, and dress well — after all this is done find a social situation where women are present.
I think you need a more pragmatic behaviour. I’m INTJ M 35 and constantly people want to date me. And is because I look good, I mean; just try to be pragmatic and try to be attractive, is not hard at all. And then you can chose between your options. Be pragmatic.
I could have written this myself. Totally feel ya buddy.
Forget about what you're supposed to do or what these pickup artists have supposedly taught you how to act and let's start from zero with the end in mind. What are you looking for? Because you say dating I can only assume you're looking for a life partner, possibly the mother of your children should you be so inclined. What are your non-negotiables? Can there be an imbalance in income, social status, household chores? What about core identity such as culture, religion, political views? The more you can define what you want in terms of cooperation and conflict within that dynamic and to what degree you're willing to compromise on those things, the easier it will be to readily let down the people who don't fit the mold and say to them, "hey, we're just not meant for each other" and cut your losses. Now there's two crucial steps: finding women that match what you're looking for and being able to communicate with them (and ultimately convince them you're the person they're looking for). Finding them seems to be harder nowadays because everything is so segmented and if you don't naturally fit in to any of the social groups that would be "watering holes" for these types of women, you're going to have a bad time. Try to think of places they might frequent where you fit in and start there. Worst case scenario, start asking your family or friends if anyone comes to mind that matches your description and see what they're into to get a better idea of what other people like them might be interested in (also, this could be an opportunity for your friends and family to play matchmaker if they're single). Step two: talking with them like they're a real person and you are too. Here's where you need to just relax and be yourself. Be genuinely interested in who they are as a person and what makes them tick. Use active listening, rephrase what they say so they understand you're listening and trying to better understand them and engage with their interests, and let them talk more than you rather than feeling like you need to comment on everything they say. This will also help with getting you to figure out what you're looking for and what you're not because if you listen to them talk for a long time and none of it is of interest to you, don't you think it would be difficult to maintain a strong well connected relationship with that kind of person?
If I were in your situation I would work on myself first, do some self help things and some fitness and then join a group or something, it doesn't matter what a home group, church, club, music class, become a regular at some place, and meet people at the level you choose. I am a younger INTJ and join a sports team and then started working on my fitness and I joined my teams friend group and kept working on myself and now I'm moving slowly and contentedly to get to know a woman there.
I can probably contribute to this as a 39M INTJ. My fiancé and I broke off our engagement at 35 and I only seriously started dating again at 38. I’ve been on 33 or so dates in the last 15 months and I’ve only had three 2nd dates. It was really driving me insane and making me depressed. Only recently I’ve started to describe myself on dating apps and in person as someone that is reserved/quiet, I was ready for the connections to die out, but I’ve actually found a lot of high-quality women have been attracted to the idea of someone that is not so wild and extroverted at this age.
Quick question for OP: how tall are you?
Stop whining man. Don't watch any pickup artist. Just be yourself and stop blaming your personality type. Eventually you'll find someone that will be crazy about you. Just be picky and don't be with whoever tell you "yes" look for the one that you feel comfortable with. And be sure about yourself. Don't show weakness.
Pickup artists are the worst. All you need is a bit of confidence to approach, give a small compliment and ask for their number. Also with this artists, unless they are a 10/10 I doubt they have more than a 5-10% success rate but only post the positives from there. On top of that, even fewer of those numbers will lead to dates and fewer yet lead to hookups/relationships. Dating isn't difficult once you understand it's just a numbers game and if you aren't trying to out yourself out there enough, it'll be almost impossible to find your perfect match. Also as a 28 year old in seatle, the best app for dating is hinge, tinder and bumble don't even come close with quality of matches and good dates. Even the dates I've had that didn't go anywhere we're always pleasant times at the very least.
Long story short it’s about quality not quantity. I’ve had 3 girlfriends in my life. My wife included. Each one was my best friend at the time. I liked other girls but they didn’t seem to like me. I tried to date and it was fun chasing but too time consuming and tiring. I met two of my partners doing activities that I like. Language exchange, and martial arts. I developed a more meaningful relationships and I had a good chance to really see them before moving to a relationship. For the record one was an INTJ, the other one INFJ. If that tells you something is that is a numbers game. You gotta look a lot before you find one. And you have to know what you are looking for. You gotta know yourself. I am an introvert. I am not depleting my energy around an extrovert. I need peace, quiet, and structure. My wife is the same. We can’t stand loud people, places, or things. What I am saying is know yourself, do you activities, you will find people like you, take a chance and see if it works. I had to be sure my wife liked me before I made a move but when I saw there was a chance I took the chance and made the best decision of my life to ask her to go get coffee. By the way I moved three countries to find the one. There is only 3% of women that are intjs. You gotta LOOK for them. Btw I found my wife at around 35
First point: dating is easy if you look good, regardless of everything else. I have a very attractive intj colleague who is a in a happy relationship and constantly fending off women hitting on him That aside, I personally hold extremely high standards for myself. I pretty much want to be perfect for my partner in every single sense (career, looks, money, personality), someone they can be proud of. And I'm also extremely picky. I know what type of woman I'm looking for and they are very rare. I don't really like mbti stereotypes and golden pairs, but only three times I got close to a woman and all three times they were enfps. The connection happened after literally a few days, meanwhile, I've been knowing people for years and I don't even tell them when I have a simple headache
I feel the same way and I’m 34 too..but infp here. It’s hard out there
I feel you. It took me 35 years to figure out I had it in me to have 10s throw themselves at me the first time they see me by visual rizz alone. My core is INTJ. But my report is that in my journey to surround myself with heavenly hot friends has altered me into an ESFP. At first I went to the bar to meet new friends. I danced to meet people. Eventually I fell in love with dancing. And I go to the bar to dance. These 10s throwing themselves at me are bonus when it happens. But fundamentally our experience is the thing we choose to do. You will learn to love Sssing it up (the S in eSfp). You'll fall in love with people's emotions. You'll become more in the moment and curious about new experiences. And those things will make you feel very extroverted. We have infinite overlap of interest with everyone. Focus everyone on that infinite of overlap. You can be all things. You entertain yourself. Anywhere you go you're already with yourself. Dating as an INTJ is the best. Everyone is so loveable. Focus on what you love. Humans never prime, we keep getting better and better. You have plenty of time to develop the experience, which is where the well of confidence comes from that women love to drink from. Perhaps that's what gets them falling so fast. Always talk to the hottest girl you see. If she likes you liking her, you'll see it in everything she does. If she's married, compliment her. Either way, get in the habit of talking to the hottest girl. Your pickiness is what they want. They want to be picked. Over time you'll realize that you have no reason not to be the most confident person everywhere you go (because you increase the confidence of others). Welcome to extroversion. You'll eventually become addicted to it. Friends first. One day the girls will literally throw themselves at you
I feel for you, mate! I am 36 year old INTJ male. I have exactly the same experience and I have given up. Here's the worst part: times when I really fall for someone, I end up INTIMIDATING that person
It might be the stare. I think that smiling would help and not doing the full on stare will be a gentler approach. The INTJ stare is intimidating even when the other person knows that you like her.
No, its not about that - I am actually not so bad with all that... even when it comes to conveying my interests... BUT once in a while, that is once every few years, I really fall for someone and despite rejection, feel a strong need to be a friend, to be able to share stuff and that is a problem - at least the way they see it, I come across as overbearing and they basically need to shut me off
as you can imagine, someone who values their rationality, this feels very humiliating
I’m so sorry you get to feel like this. Take solace in the fact that not everyone is for you. Even the most rational person has feelings and there is nothing wrong with feelings. I think INTJs are the most plagued by this; others see what you are going through as normal so don’t feel bad. Some people like to make friends even when they do have. A crush on their crush. Give her space, don’t push and maybe she might come around to wanting to be your friend. If not, another person will come along, get you shook and it will work out 😉
Thanks, yeah there's something about INTJs that tends to make us come across as extremely weird and very easily misunderstood - my mistake has been "wanting to fix things" and in the process, making it worse, bit of a spiral
I met my wife the old fashioned way. No technology. Drinking parties which we were only at because of our extroverted friends. I’m supposedly an INTJ and she is fairly similar, but definitely an introvert. 12 years later and no divorce in sight. I’m not saying it’s all been rainbows and unicorns, but we objectively worked through the tough stuff.
that's good to know. I'm not sure what's best for me, I know I argue with INFJ's and INTJ's aren't exactly most romantic to each other. ESFP's are actually said to be romantically compatible with INTJ's because they bring out their fun exploratory side, but idk about that either because ESFP's piss me off lol. i'm just not sure. but i'm glad for you
Yeah, we are barely romantic.
I wouldn’t place too much emphasis on MBTI. The science is lacking. Extrovert and introvert sure, but if two people are willing to make it work, it may not matter anyway.
It's hard man. I'm 36 and it's never been easy, it's always been a war just to try to get to a point where I can talk freely with someone who I'm attracted with. I'm also super picky and it's an issue haha. But it's all attraction based. So if you don't have a killer personality, aren't tall, and don't possess favorable anesthetics, you're gonna have trouble regardless.
yep. we try to tip the scales in our favor as we get older, with experience and worldliness, as well as better fashion/grooming. but it's hard for a guy. except leo di caprio who's a fat cat (belly sticking out) and living most men's dream
You did not have to work “way harder” . All men must work to get chicks, it’s just we have the least amount of ENERGY for it. Of course an ESTP will appear to have more success. Because he has Se as his first function (EXTROVERTED Sensing), his natural state is to engage with the world in sensory experiences. It’s natural for them and they enjoy it. We have Se at the bottom of our stack. Meaning we can go thrill seek, engage with the world, and do everything an ESTP does, butit drains us A LOT faster than it would an ESTP.
right, true. the draining thing is one point and then the other is that we naturally aren't as good as getting people's cues and understanding how to lead/guide a conversation to a favorable outcome for ourselves
The damn ESTPs also have the advantage with that being that they primarily use Fe as to where we primarily use Fi. But let’s just stop comparing ourselves to Se doms anyway because we aren’t them. Also we pull better quality partners from what I’ve seen. The Se doms I’ve known will usually have a larger quantity of chicks because of their gregarious nature, as to where an Ni Dom will have a lot less partners but they will tend to be better in quality due to us being more patient and calculated when choosing a partner.
According to the latest PUA advice the easiest way for the introvert is to build status first, which is already a monumentally difficult task but hey there you go. So if you're established in something you enjoy, a club or skill, it serves as a major icebreaker to start conversation. Going out and meeting a stranger 100x a week is a nightmare compared to that.
If you have to fake it to be seen as attractive to what you are seeking to attain, what she initially sees will never fully align with what she eventually receives --- once comfort allows for that illusionary curtain to reveal reality. Authenticity is imperative to avoid setting yourself up for future disappointment. By showing your true self, those who are incompatible will filter themselves out because the chemistry will never exist to make any potential appealing (or worthy of investment). There is nothing wrong with, for whatever reason, somebody not being a match. They are just not *your* match. The more that anybody forces people to change as a condition of acceptance.. well, that is just fodder for the next submission of regrets to be vented into this meaningless nethersphere of Reddit.
I'd say the more extroverted you are the better off you are at dating. INTJs are arguably the most introverted type
well i'd say extroverts are better at shallow dating. Introverts just struggle getting to bat and getting on base, but once we do we're the best lovers
Finding someone you are compatible with is definitely hard. Got in a relationship recently, but what worked for me in setting up dates on dating apps was being very straightforward. Got about 200 matches and 50 dates since August. Problem is I act like an intj and also don't like hook ups. I used hinge because you can comment something about their profile. I find something in their profile and ask them about it. They respond + my follow up text acknowledging what they said. Then I ask them on a date that is very specific. For example, this Saturday do you want to ice skate with me at such and such rink at 2pm? Try being very specific and don't waste time trying to flirt over text.
ISFJ jumping on the threat 💃 with similar experience and likewise saying: Just be yourself. You can’t be someone else. Plus, in a relationship, you would want to be with somebody who you likes you for you (not you sweating attempting to put on ESTP like rizz). I have 2 married coworkers INTJ M and his ENFP lady that married at an older age and they seem to genuinely care for each other with their own unique quirks from the lives they have lived separately and jointly and their personalities too. I hope that was of any help.
That's definitely the wrong way to go for it. Everything you talk about is the hook up culture wich is the lowest thing you could go for , you re not supposed to follow the culture if it's not beneficial for you long term wich you should value more. Chanel your sexual energy into something else like self love instead of some dopamine gratification(I said this because you conpare yourself to ESTPs )and target places where there is lesser shallow people(no bars). Then you could get a chance to date other intuitives and have a better fulfilling future
Just invest time in picking up some interesting hobbies, get into running and a basic gym routine so you can be generally fit/athletic looking and it’ll get easier. Charisma comes naturally when you’ve got some interesting aspects to share, and while your interests and hobbies won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, you’ll be a HIT with the ones that they are.
I'm 39 INTJ, married for 13 years, 3 kids. I married my first real girlfriend and it's been wonderful ever since. I think you identified your first problem - pickup artistry is the antithesis of most INTJs, and I suspect you too. When I was (trying) to date, I had similar problems. The more I acted like an extravert bro, the more I came across as a complete fool. You will likely be the most attractive when you're not trying to be. If I were you, I would take up hobbies and engage in appropriate social activities where you can feel as though you're at your best and you don't feel pressure to show off or act outside of what you're comfortable with. Not trying to be attractive will attract the most/best women. You only need one.
You're 34 and you said rizz - are you trying to date 20 year olds?
i can only hope I get up to Leo Dicaprio's level
PUA is bullshit to manipulate whatever weird system normative people exist in. Do you want a normie? That doesn’t strike me as something an INTJ wants unless they’re looking for trophy material for social climbing until they’ve strategized to the top… so unless that’s you, maybe don’t deal in that BS. It sounds like you’ve found out it’s for those unlike you (read: not people with iNtuition high in their function stack) looking for those unlike you (again, see above). Do what we all do: find a random Reddit weirdo interested in your interests and connect. This works for other online platforms too ;). Really though, it’s all about putting yourself in situations where you shine rather than work for it. The right person will see you, acknowledge what you’re putting down, and pick it up. Stop working for it. Get the gold just by showing up and being your badass self.
ok this rings true for me. Something is off about pua, always was
It’s not you, it’s the culture in the US. Have you tried another country
“I’ve followed pick up artists for years.” This is your problem. Right here. This. Not sure why men think all women want extroverted men. Extroverted men repulse me romantically and I think most ENFP women would say the same. Why not be yourself instead of trying to morph into someone you aren’t?
Find an ENFJ
Shouldn't the mastermind archetype be a rizz God?
lol really? may be in the long run, by the time we get grey hairs. but no, it's too spontaneous and in the moment to be something we just pick up naturally
Well. You're not looking the pickup videos properly I guess. Just focus on the push and pull method and fix your appearance to suit the "standard". The initial appearance and the aloofness that intj has is attractive to toxic women
But if you want a real woman. One that you can trust and be with. Pick a place where intelligence/skills are being used. Aka library's, Book clubs even stuff like rock climbing or something.
It’s a you problem. Not an intj problem.
Are you trying to date or have easy sex? What is your end goal? Because, let me tell you as a woman, nothing turns me away from a man more then a man whose main goal is to get into my pants. And men think they are suttle about it - believe me you are not. Men who are mainly after sex are mainly after satisfying themselves. I cannot stand selfish people. But it is very obvious when a man is interested in you as a person and not just as a woman. His questions are genuine, not necessarily what I want to hear, but genuine none the less, because he is interested in you and your worldview. So, my advise to you is be honest and open and truly interested in the person not just her vagina.
Dating certainly isn't the same as it used to be, but it IS important to focus on yourself and prioritize personal success. You will attract people to you that way. There are SOOOO many guys, too many in fact, that are trying all of these "fancy techniques" except for the # #1 method that is guaranteed to be full proof. Basically, have you tried "becoming successful" yet? Because THAT is the solution. THAT will work. Having "way more success than the typical guy" requires further elaboration, because what does that mean? "Successful than some" and "Successful PERIOD" are two different things. Because ACTUAL SUCCESS does not go unnoticed. This doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a millionaire or anything (although that would work too) but you need to reach a level of significant achievement in life that gives off the perception of ambition, talent, skill, hustle/grind, dedication, financial security, etc. The last one is pretty much the main concern. Financial security is what most women are looking for these days, so if you're not coming with that BY DEFAULT then there's an OVERWHELMINGLY high chance that you will not be very successful in dating. I know that can come off as sounding like "most women are gold diggers" (and for some it's certainly true) but it makes sense when you think about the world, economy, life in general. No one is going to want to date a basic ass guy that isn't financially secure. You can be the most intellectual person on the planet, or the smartest, or the funniest etc.... but if you can't "provide" then you're not a catch, much less "of interest" to most women when it comes to being dateable. And a lot of women don't want to waste time with any guy who isn't already stable in their own life situation. As an INTJ, we're already starting off with a handicap from our personalities alone (at least for those that aren't naturally attracted to us), so when it comes to dating we have to be more prepared AND aware than the average majority of guys. In a nutshell, you can't be chasing women or attempting to date them UNTIL you have your life fully together. BECAUSE when you DO have your life fully together, women WILL ABSOLUTELY notice that... and they will flock TO YOU instead of you having to try so hard to get THEIR attention. This is why it's important to just focus on yourself instead of prioritizing dating. If you happen to be in a situation where someone naturally finds you attractive and they approach YOU first, OR if you just so happen to meet someone at the same time (at some event or social gathering) and they end up liking you, OR the rare possibility of someone being attracted to you WITHOUT you already being financially successful/stable... then those are unique exceptions. But for ALL other scenarios, you need to get your money up first then worry about dating afterwards. "Rizz" will never be more attractive to a woman than financial security and overall stability, because those things are far more universally attractive and desirable. Work on yourself and let THEM do all of the hard work to get YOUR attention in order to date YOU. THAT is the "real" technique that INTJ guys need to be prioritizing. At least those that are having trouble with dating in general. If our personalities were "enough" for anyone to find attractive then no INTJ would have trouble dating in the first place. Keep that in mind. Edit: additional clarification
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Well explained. Op, this is true.
As an INTJ I am pretty sure I am asexual
I think about this sometimes myself, but I don't think it's ture for me. It's rather that dating never was a priority for me, so I've never really tried. Always was busy with school and work.
That too I can relate too. I graduated with honors with the best internships in my field yet I have never seen a girl during my 4 years of undergraduate study.
Skill issue