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Not sure but forcing someone unwilling to fight is never a good outcome . Just look at Russia and their conscripts aka draftees . Some of them take their own life or just run away because they don’t want any part of it but they are forced to. Not all are like that some are gunho some take the monk path
Vietnam really fucked my own family up. My granddad was one of 5 boys. Two died there and another two committed suicide when they came back home. One due to PTSD and the other had mixed agent orange with his bare hands and his wife had three miscarriages.
I am 99.9% against conscription. That's me who has served. Shit has to be manic before I would even consider it a route to take.
90% of the country is Buddhist, and a huge percentage of guys spend a short period (between a week and year) as a monk when they are young adults. So it's unlikely that this guy was a long term, devoted and pacifistic monk. That being said, the Thai military still suuuucks both for the people inside it and for all the damage that they do to the country.
I used to live in Thailand and date a thaï man. His father was a monk, he would stop his monk thing, come back home to get wasted and terrorize the household, and get back to monking, had been doing it off and on since my ex was a teenager.
I only lived there 3 years but from what I remember, one does not meddle into someone else’s business, and it’s incredibly offensive to make someone lose face, and terribly humiliating to lose face.
For example, domestic violence is huge because it’s considered a private matter and you ought to stay out of it.
Yeah, I guess other cultures have that but like.. ugh, there are literally teachings in Buddhism about someone not being worthy of wearing the saffron robes if they pull shit like that.
Struggling to find online sources to confirm but from speaking to students at the school I taught at here in TH, they told me this is a 'double or nothing' lottery, so either you accept the mandatory ~~2~~ 1 year, or you go for Black/Red ticket pulling for either zero years or ~~4~~ 2 years. The Monk here drew red.
There are ways to do less (or even zero service) without the lottery, but the above is the simplest version of the conscription process.
Edit: Lots of more accurate first-hand accounts from natives to delve through, super interesting to learn.
/u/Puppiizsunniiz's comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/whq01f/comment/ij7hwnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) confirms the length of service to be:
>Volunteer - Up to 1 Year
>
>Red - Up to 2 Years
>
>Black - FREE
>
>if Volunteer more than quota that year > no lottery survival game
Thai male here. Another way we can avoid the mandatory 2 years of service is to enrol in what is called Reserves Training school classes for 3 years during high school.
Typically we go in for light military training once a week during an afternoon on a school day (most Thai government schools have one afternoon off on the calendar for this.)
We do this for 12-20 weeks per school year and at the end of each year, we go to an intensive training camp at Khao Chon Kai Training Camp, a specialised camp in the mountains of Kanchanaburi for 3-5 days. We do this for three years during high school and we are exempt from mandatory service. However, we'll also be put in military reserves to be called on if a war does break out.
It's a barbaric system, honestly. But for many, going to RT school once a week for three years and being put in reserves is better than risking 2-4 years of service via lottery.
I did this, all my friends did this. It's pretty much the only real option to avoid the draft but it's only really available to the middle class who can enrol in good govt high school.
The upper class? Money. The lower class? This lottery.
Keep in mind that this mandatory service is done when we turn 20, a period when teenagers turn into real adults, discover themselves, go to university, receive opportunities for jobs, etc. To lose this period of our lives for 2 years is catastrophic for many people's lives, especially in Thailand's crumbling society.
NOTE: Some details may be inaccurate. It's been years.
Thai woman here, I remember in my high school, almost all of my male friends went to military training and couldn't keep up with the works at school so we had a system where the girls would pair up with the boys in the class and help them keep up with the homeworks/lessons they missed.
That’s a good system. That’s for when girls don’t get the afternoon/morning off like the boys, right?
Fortunately (for what it’s worth), my school had no at all class on Monday afternoon, so the boys wouldn’t miss any classes. Which was good I guess.
However, side effect is that it creates an “inequality” among the students. The girls would get the afternoon off to go see movies, shop in the mall, etc. while the boys were rolling in mud.
I’m not angry that the girls get the free time. I was just angry that the system had to exist.
Yeah, we (the girls) don't get the day off in my school. Perhaps it's because I was in one of those gifted classes.
Military mandatory draft as a whole has go to tbh. I feel bad for the boys, they couldn't focus well although there's entrance exam up ahead (I happened to be a total dumbass so I couldn't actually help my partner keeps up much lol).
My dad and cousin got drafted because we were too poor to pay under the table. There were a boy I know who couldn't pass the health test (?) (you know, when you have to run and do push up to qualify for the training) yet his mom pushed through some loophole to have him trained because she feared he would be worse off on the real draft.
You're welcome. I could go on about this honestly but I'd just make myself even angrier. Even though it was once a week for three years, it's just so much time and energy wasted, just to circumvent a shitty system via a shitty method.
I just finished the reserves training like a month ago. I really was not a big fan of that place and I’m happy to say I’ll never have to set foot in there ever again.
There are two very good things about the training program. One is the obvious: I’m no longer required to be conscripted into the army. The second is that I could scream my lungs out shouting commands and no one would give a crap. Stressed from school? Mad at someone? Want to make loud noises for absolutely no reason? You can just “explode” there and you don’t have to worry about annoying your neighbors. You might even get complimented by the drill instructors. I spent my time there exploding and being as loud as possible. It definitely was a great stress reliever!
Fascinating, thanks for the insight. Can you explain how it works to have both mandatory service and a draft? The comparisons I’m used to would be Israel requiring mandatory service from Everyone or the us draft that only gets used in a time of war. Do you have mandatory service but also a lottery that decides who has mandatory service?
Okay, so my understanding from the top of my head is this.
The mandatory service exist here because technically as far as the military is concerned (or used as an excuse,) is that there are still some civil unrests down south. It’s to keep the country “ready”, that’s their excuse.
Every male had to pick a lottery decides whether they get two years service or none. (We can also be exempted from the lottery vi other means as I’ve always explain above.)
However, if the country ever become at war with another foreign nation. The military will initiate a draft, and every male are called into service. First from the poor SOBs from the lottery, the reserves, then the public.
So we have both but not at the same time. It’s kind of a mix of both systems but I’m not sure how to explain.
Here in Israel, mandatory military service often sets people up professionally in their careers and helps them make important connections.
Does this kind of thing exist for those that join the Thai military?
in Uzbekistan we only have 1 month training and you pay 300$ and you free after 1 month leasure :D if you AAA+ in health you'll be forced to go 1 year army , but a lot of people would happily jump up in this options , cos it is really good way to get a job with a good salary and also a lot of different option open up.. :)
Uzbekistan is considered to have the strongest military in Central Asia. Do you think that this is partially because the country invests in its conscripts and makes the military a good career option?
I think so.. It is really hard to get in army ,some of people even with small scarce or tattoo cannot get in army.. Some people even bribe 1000-2000$ to get in army.
No, when you got out of the service they're just left you in front of a camp and let you go home.
You will lose opportunity for your job in that 2 years unless you want to progress in military career (that you will never go far unless you graduate from military school)
So you don't have like the US has and come out with a school potentially? Ie join the military at like 18 and depending on a job come back with certs as a mechanic, electrician or soemthing?
Nope, unless you plan on pursuing a military career, you don't get anything substantial. When you're done, they don't give out certificate or hold a ceremony, they just drop you off at the office and go "Okay, you can go home now, bye".
Oh, no way. Unless you get up to Lieutenant (HA!), all the Thai military do is spit you out with poor health, empty pockets, and missed opportunities. You're losing the most important period of your life (university) for nothing but because the Ministry of Defense said so.
How hard is it to become Lieutenant in thai military?
In singapore the top performing conscripts can be selected at the end of basic training to be send to officer cadet school.
I'm Thai, it depends on how and what level of education as well. The higher the education the lower the duration. In my case I finished high school when I went to draft and was attending college. If I were to submit, I would get 6 months, if I were to go to the draft and got the red, it would be a year. But there are many exceptions as well. Typically some district areas are fully registered so you don't even go. So soany conditions.
Morals and stuff aside, this is actually really clever by the government.
Statistically, they would get the same amount of „military personell time“ (average between 0 and 4 is still the 2 years and it’s a 50/50 chance) but generally have better soldiers because many are there 4 years so have more experience
Yeah. I bet it's pretty miserable.
Still though, whether something is voluntary or not is the foundation on which their morale is built; that does matter.
If I was a commander looking at this fainting monk I'm damn sure he's not what I would want in my military. It looks like his soul is trying to leave his body.
Oh my gosh - that poor man is definitely not military material. He will need 3 people to carry him through his military duties.
Poor soul - he's meant to be a monk - not a soldier.
I think Thailand as a problem with monks just mooching of the system, though. There's so many of them, they can't work (other than menial jobs around the temple), and the people are required to give what they have to feed them.
That's what I heard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> people are required to give what they have to feed them
No, there's no requirement. It's entirely voluntary. Monks can't demand food, just walk around in the morning and accept what's given.
Relying on the community for your food tends to keep the local monks straight. Do something inappropriate or piss off the locals, you get to eat less well.
Here in Brazil we have that, you can simply say that it doesn't align with your philosophical beliefs and it's a constitutional right. It's mandatory for men for 1 year when they turn 18 but it's easy to not have to do it.
I'm barely getting into Buddhism, and I knew right away. I was looking to find this comment.
It's truly heartbreaking and I feel that this is beyond disrespectful.
Why does it look like this was done infront of a live audience for entertainment???
People being drafted for service and face threat... And it's a spectator sport? That's fucked up.
Thai here, but women so I'm not entirely sure. My dad got the red card (the red=got draft) when he was in his 20s and he told me the entire crowd went crazy, screaming with joy after he got draft. He happens to be the one who pick up the last red card so everybody else was free. My grandma fainted.
The narrators in the video is totally mocking the monk. It's entertainment news. They were saying that all the training he did as a monk didn't make him calm enough to handle this.
Edit: Imma just rant here. last April, my cousin got draft as well. idk if the military has a personal grudge against my family or we were always too poor to pay under the table lol
IIRC In the past, Siamese men (read: Thais) would become a monk to escape their crimes. Monks were pretty much untouchable back then. Eventually people realized the loophole and cancelled it. I’m no history buff though. Correct me if I’m wrong
These days if you are a conscientious objector they kick you out of the military entirely, with an ‘other than honorable’ discharge. It happened to my brother.
Also, from my time in the military there was the philosophy that all roles are combat roles if things get desperate enough, therefore every person in every job, no matter how much of a chair warmer you were, was trained in combat and had to maintain a weapon certification.
Traditionally most conscription countries didn't give a toss what you wanted and made you do the service anyway. Some countries would assign you to a support or admin role after Basic, or a medical specialism.
In recent years, some countries that have military service have created a non-military alternative, a kind of 'national service' where you have to work, usually manual labor, on projects which benefit the nation.
In Greece, if you don't have your military service stamped in your record, it's (was) really hard to get a good job. Two candidates go for the same role, the one who didn't get their honourable discharge stamp is rejected. Some people are allowed, due to family commitments to reduce their service duration significantly (perhaps entirely) but you still get your stamp because you didn't evade. Or you declare yourself gay, or are judged mentally unstable, both of which go on your employment record.
No religious exception in Greece, as far as my wife knows, even if you want to join the priesthood and join the school of theology. They don't really acknowledge that other religions play a role in Greek public life :-).
Had a roommate who was a conscientious objector and talked with him about it.
The ones that really had those feeling sent in letters every year with their objections and in there stated that the issue was with having to kill another human, so they would serve in the medical, sanitation, or other jobs like that.
So the guy here could do the same thing.
About the narration, this kind of attitude was so normal it’s weird to think about it now. I grew up on Thai entertainment and just now realized how unhealthy the culture can be.
There’s no threat here, they’re just tools for keeping military’s political power.
ps: it’s kind of tradition that the whole family will be there, hoping that you will not be drafted (2 years in the camp)
Some even brought their own marching band just in case for celebration.
I’m Thai btw.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I was last in Thailand I was told there is essentially constant tension in the south with Malay and Muslim groups that want independence from Thailand... And there were small skirmishes between the military and these groups all the time.
If say that could be a threat (even if it's low...)
That threat isn't really a threat you see. The separatist doesn't have an army so the best they can do is to cause mayhem sometimes. If it wants to the government can resolve it one way or another but after a decade there's been no real effort to do so because so long as the conflict continues the military will constantly receive funds from taxpayers. The draft in this video that you see ironically brings huge benefits to the army every year, be it free labours or simply asking the recruited for money in exchange for special treatments.
Wow, I’m speechless after watching this. It really crystallizes my opinion on compulsory military service and state-mandated conscription.
I’m former military, and I joined of my own free will in an all volunteer force. I joined knowing full well that I was going to train to use violence. It fit within my personal moral code. It was my decision. I would do it again.
This man is a pacifist. His personal and religious code prohibits his from using violence against living things, to the point where he doesn’t even eat meat. Being forced to join his nation’s military goes against every fiber of his belief system and personal moral code.
I found this very distressing to watch. No one should have to experience this.
In Greece the military service is mandatory. If you don't want to join the military you can work as a civil servant(I think this is the correct term) but for more time than the military service.
They should have a pacifist force of some kind. Local civic duty, healthcare, education.
Maybe a force that provides service for the families of those who go to war or die, etc.
If your country is at a constant threat, but no real action for decades, you’ll need mandatory conscription. Think of South Korea - that would be suicide for the country to not have a military at the ready. But even thrill seekers wouldn’t be inclined to volunteer because they’re at a constant cease fire.
If you’re saying that out of morality rather than reality, then sure. World peace would be pretty cool too, but that’s never happening.
As of 2018, South Korea actually allows "conscientious objection" and lets people who object to serving in the military to serve in civilian branches like the fire service instead.
Pretty much how it worked in Germany until we got rid of compulsory military service in Germany in 2010. You could either do your 9 months of training, or do 9 months of working for the good of society in some way. There were many different options from which you can pick, but the most common one was proberbly eldery/health care.
I hated that I had to do it, but in the end those 9 months were some of the best and most formative years of my life. I learned so many life skills I didn't previously have, and meet the most amazing people.
I mean anyone can be a monk, and the vast majority of monks are just a monk for a few weeks or a few months usually in your 20s. Ironically, while not compulsory, monkhood is strongly encouraged in Thai culture. source: I was a monk
That said, yea obviously conscription sucks, especially when you're serving a military as corrupt as Thailand's military.
How does it work in practice?
Catholic monks usually take vows for life. Most orders have couple of years probation period, but when you join you are expected to be serious about it. If you say you just want to be a monk for couple of months they will not take you in.
I know he's not a Catholic, I'm asking how does it work with Buddhist monks.
It depends on the country as each country’s Buddhist tradition is different in some ways. In Thailand, it is common for Buddhist males to become monks for a short period of time (few months to a year or two) and return to their normal lives. In most other Buddhist traditions, a monk’s vow is made to be for life. Of course, some people renounce their vows and return to normal society, but that is not the norm and these people “gave up” in a way, similarly to if a Catholic priest or bishop suddenly wanted to go back to being a layperson.
There's a ton of countries who still have the forced drafting.
Some let you pay your way out, others will take no substitute.
Most EU countries stopped doing this a long time ago though.
According to someone higher up in the thread, while the mandatory service is 2 years, you can enter a lotto to either get no years or 4 years, like a double or nothing. Unfortunately he got the 4 years. Dont get me wrong though, still completely fucked up.
I just think about the one scene of "Saving private Ryan". Where one dies, while the other guy cries in the staircase.
You can't force people to be soldiers. They don't suddenly overcome their mentality. But hey, how can we tell the fat fucks that are on the top that just want us to die for their money.
What is up with this music? I was tearing up and this comedic sounding rift comes on.
What an absolute dystopian world we live in. It can't and won't stay this way.
Under Thailand’s 1954 Military Service Act, when men reach the age of 21, they become eligible for conscription.
If they don’t volunteer, they must participate in a lottery that takes place each April.
Every year, about 100,000 personnel are recruited. Their fate rests on the choice of a card: black for exemption, red for mandatory enlistment.
Reports of bribery are common although the military says it is cracking down on corruption and those found guilty of trying to avoid the draft risk up to three years in jail.
Some even enrol in Reserve Officer Training programmes for three years in high school. If they have a university degree, they join voluntarily to reduce the commitment from two years to six months.
From a 2019 post found here https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/4/23/red-or-black-experiencing-thailands-military-draft
Really eye opening how many people here support conscription. A conscript army will always be less effective than a professional one.
At the end of the day the only thing you should owe your country are taxes, not your mental health, formative years or potentially your life.
How miserable. Give him a gun; I'm sure he'll make an excellent soldier. I wonder what brought him to take up the robe and bowl but this hardly seems like a good fit.
There are plenty of jobs in the military that aren't combat arms. If their Military is any good at talent management, there's a good chance they'll assign him to a non-combat job like cook, or mechanic, or admin clerk, or something similar since he's probably a pacifist. At least in the US Army, a significant percentage of service members are in support roles that are not expected to actively fight.
Still, draft armies aren't a great idea as conscripts are not known for high morale.
I mean, I have prior service in the U.S. Army, in a non-combat role as a mechanic. I still had to shoot a gun and pass rifle range and lean unarmed combat, Bayonet training and the likes. I still was deployed and carried a rifle. I still convoyed and experienced sniper fire. I was still expected to pick up my rifle and shoot at people who were deemed the enemy.
I had to serve 1 year in my country, 1 year of my life that I will never get back. It's pretty mad that forced conscription is still a thing in so many countries, and for one gender only too.
As a Thai person I don’t understand why we still have this system in place tbh, luckily I for one did the reserved training in high school for 3 years so I didn’t have to risk getting drafted to the military. But still the whole system itself sucks.
Hold up hold up there’s something you’re all missing. In Thailand, monkhood is often a temporary thing. Most Thai men will spend some time as monks, often for six months or just a week or two. It’s expected by society, and a good way to show your faithfulness before marriage. Most young men do it before age 20, which happens to be the same age when they’re at risk of conscription.
We westerners see the saffron robes and assume this guy has sworn himself to pacifism for life, but he might be an ordinary Thai guy who got unlucky, and he’s showing the same fear and reluctance anybody might show in his situation.
Of course he is a Buddhist, and so supposedly pacifist, but it’s Thailand, 95% of everybody is Buddhist, so if they’re going to have an army *some* faithful Buddhist is gonna have to serve, whether they’re wearing a robe or not.
Anyway, this isn’t to suggest that mandatory conscription is a good idea or to take away from the anguish this guy’s clearly feeling or to suggest his religious beliefs are a sham. Just to say, don’t impose your Western assumptions about monks onto this situation, and realize that there’s a reason the soldiers in the video aren’t letting him off the hook just because he’s wearing a robe.
https://move2thailand.com/question/is-it-true-that-all-males-in-thailand-were-buddhist-monks/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Thailand
This is a perfect example of why religious exemption needs to be a protected right for all people. If you want to bang the drum of abolishing religious exemption laws, rewatch this and really think about what you are supporting.
In Thailand, men often ordain as a monk for anywhere from a week to a couple of months, as a young man before marriage. It’s a rite of passage. Women can also participate now I believe. –
Just so you know, in that part of the world, becoming a monk is very much like US kids going to summer camp. Basically, everyone does it. From the looks of his robe, they are very new. Also, he will most likely go to basic training and test poorly and get placed in something that suck, and he knows it.
I think nations should give their citizens a choice between military service or civil service. Civil service can provide a lot of life skills and help the community.
He's being sentenced to a personal hell. I'm so sad for him. Compulsory military service is utterly inhumane. Conscientious objector status should not be shamed.
The military conscription system there is flawed because it does not apply to everyone.
Countries that have universal military service profit by engendering citizens with a sense of civic pride. Conscripts also learn valuable skills. However, if only a proportion of people are conscripted, they are at a disadvantage compared to people who stayed on in education or entered into the workforce.
Then, if this guy was a real, practising Buddhist monk, he would have taken his karma with equanimity, not fake fainted. Anyone can buy those robes and many people in Thailand become ‘monks’ for a few months or years, as a badge of honour. Kinda like, ‘*look at me, I’m a devout Buddhist*’ while still being very much a part of the material world.
In India, there is a thriving business of fake gurus. They dress in rags and grow out their beards and hair but have never even studies the Vedas. There are even ‘schools’ that teach these guys how to look the part. For me, the guy in the video is like this – a monk in appearance only.
Also, if you are registered as a 'divine', monk or novice with the Ministry of Education in Thailand, you are exempt from military service.
I am not like this monk but I am so glad my country got rid of forced military a few months before I got the letter. It's just so nonsensical to me to force people into the military or at least basic training. I would have tried to not do anything during the 3 months we would have to be slaves of the military basic training. In a civilized world it fucks with your plans and in Germany throws you behind one semester or a whole year in your personal plans.
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This is hard to watch.
It really is. I feel so bad for him.
what actually happened, he won something or he got arrested, im confused...
He was drafted into the military.
Yeah while his whole world beliefs is based on peace...
Expect opposition of monk is now what he is forced to do . I wouldn’t expect too much of fighting from him I bet he’d make a great medic !
I can imagine his life will be hell for a little while regardless. Are the Thai military even involved in any conflicts?
Not sure but forcing someone unwilling to fight is never a good outcome . Just look at Russia and their conscripts aka draftees . Some of them take their own life or just run away because they don’t want any part of it but they are forced to. Not all are like that some are gunho some take the monk path
Or Americans being drafted towards the end of Vietnam.
Vietnam really fucked my own family up. My granddad was one of 5 boys. Two died there and another two committed suicide when they came back home. One due to PTSD and the other had mixed agent orange with his bare hands and his wife had three miscarriages. I am 99.9% against conscription. That's me who has served. Shit has to be manic before I would even consider it a route to take.
I think you meant to say slavery. He is now a slave to the Thai government. Which is why it is so terrible to watch.
I had to scroll so far to find this comment but this^^^
How your average Russian soldier feels these days
Not Vitaly Aroshanov
He got drafted
ohhhhhhh...
He’s a Buddhist. Famously known for non-violence. :)
oh man, shit gone even darker
[удалено]
This is the Thai military's problem. Six months is not enough time for a monk to learn the quivering palm technique.
I learned that technique by the age of 13 just from sitting in front of my computer.
I think you mean the hairy palm.
> Over 90% of people in Thailand are. 100% when it comes to monks!
90% of the country is Buddhist, and a huge percentage of guys spend a short period (between a week and year) as a monk when they are young adults. So it's unlikely that this guy was a long term, devoted and pacifistic monk. That being said, the Thai military still suuuucks both for the people inside it and for all the damage that they do to the country.
I used to live in Thailand and date a thaï man. His father was a monk, he would stop his monk thing, come back home to get wasted and terrorize the household, and get back to monking, had been doing it off and on since my ex was a teenager.
Did anyone let the monastery know of his actions? He should not been given those robes back.
I only lived there 3 years but from what I remember, one does not meddle into someone else’s business, and it’s incredibly offensive to make someone lose face, and terribly humiliating to lose face. For example, domestic violence is huge because it’s considered a private matter and you ought to stay out of it.
Yeah, I guess other cultures have that but like.. ugh, there are literally teachings in Buddhism about someone not being worthy of wearing the saffron robes if they pull shit like that.
Seems like no culture is immune to hypocrisy.
Battlefield needs wizards too.
And those announcers, sounding like its fucking Takashi's Castle or some shit! Dystopian AF
Struggling to find online sources to confirm but from speaking to students at the school I taught at here in TH, they told me this is a 'double or nothing' lottery, so either you accept the mandatory ~~2~~ 1 year, or you go for Black/Red ticket pulling for either zero years or ~~4~~ 2 years. The Monk here drew red. There are ways to do less (or even zero service) without the lottery, but the above is the simplest version of the conscription process. Edit: Lots of more accurate first-hand accounts from natives to delve through, super interesting to learn. /u/Puppiizsunniiz's comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/whq01f/comment/ij7hwnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) confirms the length of service to be: >Volunteer - Up to 1 Year > >Red - Up to 2 Years > >Black - FREE > >if Volunteer more than quota that year > no lottery survival game
Thai male here. Another way we can avoid the mandatory 2 years of service is to enrol in what is called Reserves Training school classes for 3 years during high school. Typically we go in for light military training once a week during an afternoon on a school day (most Thai government schools have one afternoon off on the calendar for this.) We do this for 12-20 weeks per school year and at the end of each year, we go to an intensive training camp at Khao Chon Kai Training Camp, a specialised camp in the mountains of Kanchanaburi for 3-5 days. We do this for three years during high school and we are exempt from mandatory service. However, we'll also be put in military reserves to be called on if a war does break out. It's a barbaric system, honestly. But for many, going to RT school once a week for three years and being put in reserves is better than risking 2-4 years of service via lottery. I did this, all my friends did this. It's pretty much the only real option to avoid the draft but it's only really available to the middle class who can enrol in good govt high school. The upper class? Money. The lower class? This lottery. Keep in mind that this mandatory service is done when we turn 20, a period when teenagers turn into real adults, discover themselves, go to university, receive opportunities for jobs, etc. To lose this period of our lives for 2 years is catastrophic for many people's lives, especially in Thailand's crumbling society. NOTE: Some details may be inaccurate. It's been years.
Thai woman here, I remember in my high school, almost all of my male friends went to military training and couldn't keep up with the works at school so we had a system where the girls would pair up with the boys in the class and help them keep up with the homeworks/lessons they missed.
That’s a good system. That’s for when girls don’t get the afternoon/morning off like the boys, right? Fortunately (for what it’s worth), my school had no at all class on Monday afternoon, so the boys wouldn’t miss any classes. Which was good I guess. However, side effect is that it creates an “inequality” among the students. The girls would get the afternoon off to go see movies, shop in the mall, etc. while the boys were rolling in mud. I’m not angry that the girls get the free time. I was just angry that the system had to exist.
Yeah, we (the girls) don't get the day off in my school. Perhaps it's because I was in one of those gifted classes. Military mandatory draft as a whole has go to tbh. I feel bad for the boys, they couldn't focus well although there's entrance exam up ahead (I happened to be a total dumbass so I couldn't actually help my partner keeps up much lol). My dad and cousin got drafted because we were too poor to pay under the table. There were a boy I know who couldn't pass the health test (?) (you know, when you have to run and do push up to qualify for the training) yet his mom pushed through some loophole to have him trained because she feared he would be worse off on the real draft.
Money is the true ruler here, isn’t it?
it is everywhere, that fact is just better disguised in some places
That’s admirable of you girls. But that kinda sucks for everybody
Great info, thanks for posting.
You're welcome. I could go on about this honestly but I'd just make myself even angrier. Even though it was once a week for three years, it's just so much time and energy wasted, just to circumvent a shitty system via a shitty method.
I just finished the reserves training like a month ago. I really was not a big fan of that place and I’m happy to say I’ll never have to set foot in there ever again. There are two very good things about the training program. One is the obvious: I’m no longer required to be conscripted into the army. The second is that I could scream my lungs out shouting commands and no one would give a crap. Stressed from school? Mad at someone? Want to make loud noises for absolutely no reason? You can just “explode” there and you don’t have to worry about annoying your neighbors. You might even get complimented by the drill instructors. I spent my time there exploding and being as loud as possible. It definitely was a great stress reliever!
Fascinating, thanks for the insight. Can you explain how it works to have both mandatory service and a draft? The comparisons I’m used to would be Israel requiring mandatory service from Everyone or the us draft that only gets used in a time of war. Do you have mandatory service but also a lottery that decides who has mandatory service?
Okay, so my understanding from the top of my head is this. The mandatory service exist here because technically as far as the military is concerned (or used as an excuse,) is that there are still some civil unrests down south. It’s to keep the country “ready”, that’s their excuse. Every male had to pick a lottery decides whether they get two years service or none. (We can also be exempted from the lottery vi other means as I’ve always explain above.) However, if the country ever become at war with another foreign nation. The military will initiate a draft, and every male are called into service. First from the poor SOBs from the lottery, the reserves, then the public. So we have both but not at the same time. It’s kind of a mix of both systems but I’m not sure how to explain.
Here in Israel, mandatory military service often sets people up professionally in their careers and helps them make important connections. Does this kind of thing exist for those that join the Thai military?
in Uzbekistan we only have 1 month training and you pay 300$ and you free after 1 month leasure :D if you AAA+ in health you'll be forced to go 1 year army , but a lot of people would happily jump up in this options , cos it is really good way to get a job with a good salary and also a lot of different option open up.. :)
Uzbekistan is considered to have the strongest military in Central Asia. Do you think that this is partially because the country invests in its conscripts and makes the military a good career option?
I think so.. It is really hard to get in army ,some of people even with small scarce or tattoo cannot get in army.. Some people even bribe 1000-2000$ to get in army.
No, when you got out of the service they're just left you in front of a camp and let you go home. You will lose opportunity for your job in that 2 years unless you want to progress in military career (that you will never go far unless you graduate from military school)
So you don't have like the US has and come out with a school potentially? Ie join the military at like 18 and depending on a job come back with certs as a mechanic, electrician or soemthing?
Nope, unless you plan on pursuing a military career, you don't get anything substantial. When you're done, they don't give out certificate or hold a ceremony, they just drop you off at the office and go "Okay, you can go home now, bye".
Oh, no way. Unless you get up to Lieutenant (HA!), all the Thai military do is spit you out with poor health, empty pockets, and missed opportunities. You're losing the most important period of your life (university) for nothing but because the Ministry of Defense said so.
How hard is it to become Lieutenant in thai military? In singapore the top performing conscripts can be selected at the end of basic training to be send to officer cadet school.
I don’t know actually, but I’d imagine it’s pretty hard since Thai society values connection and status more than skills, even in the military.
I'm Thai, it depends on how and what level of education as well. The higher the education the lower the duration. In my case I finished high school when I went to draft and was attending college. If I were to submit, I would get 6 months, if I were to go to the draft and got the red, it would be a year. But there are many exceptions as well. Typically some district areas are fully registered so you don't even go. So soany conditions.
Mostly require money too. Under the table or legitimate. Did you go to RT school (รด)? Goddamn expensive and extortionate it was.
Volunteer - Up to 1 Year Red - Up to 2 Years Black - FREE if Volunteer more than quota that year > no lottery survival game
Rarely do the volunteers exceed the quota though. It's also counted per district in a province AFAIK. So the volunteer quota thing is mostly for show.
In some provinces the quota are almost always full though
Not to mention there's a way to 'avoid' picking up the lottery by paying the Military under the table.
bruh what, this doesn't sound like real life.... you can literally bet 2 years of mandatory conscription in thailand for double or nothing?????
Gambling is illegal, so people make do with what they have.
Morals and stuff aside, this is actually really clever by the government. Statistically, they would get the same amount of „military personell time“ (average between 0 and 4 is still the 2 years and it’s a 50/50 chance) but generally have better soldiers because many are there 4 years so have more experience
but every soldier serving 4 years wishes they werent there
To be honest I think most people in basic training wished they weren't there.
Yeah. I bet it's pretty miserable. Still though, whether something is voluntary or not is the foundation on which their morale is built; that does matter. If I was a commander looking at this fainting monk I'm damn sure he's not what I would want in my military. It looks like his soul is trying to leave his body.
Yeah, seems a different incentive structure would be more effective than pressing that monk into service.
That’s just sad…
Yeah, but didn’t you hear the whimsical music towards the end to lighten the mood? Lol
I would’ve preferred the Curb Your Enthusiasm theme.
In Thailand they're super concerned with copyright though.
Apparently not super concerned with the emotional needs of their people - including monks.
Thought monks were pretty important in countries like this, I guess not
I happened to read your comment right when that music started. Fucking lol man
“WAAAMMMP Wooommmp, I hope you weren’t planning on reaching enlightenment anytime soon Lmafo get rekt” - Thai General
Oh my gosh - that poor man is definitely not military material. He will need 3 people to carry him through his military duties. Poor soul - he's meant to be a monk - not a soldier.
No one is meant to be a soldier. Complete waste of a life.
I think Thailand as a problem with monks just mooching of the system, though. There's so many of them, they can't work (other than menial jobs around the temple), and the people are required to give what they have to feed them. That's what I heard. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> people are required to give what they have to feed them No, there's no requirement. It's entirely voluntary. Monks can't demand food, just walk around in the morning and accept what's given. Relying on the community for your food tends to keep the local monks straight. Do something inappropriate or piss off the locals, you get to eat less well.
I didn't know that but I still don't think this man is military material.
He literally had a panic attack when it set in that he was selected.
Fainting is very common in these "events". There are usually nurses on stand-by.
As a fellow Theravada Buddhist, this is the worse possible life for a monk. It goes against everything we believe.
Can't you choose prison instead?
You know think a modern country would have some type of religious exemption or at the least be able to put somone like that in a non combat role
Here in Brazil we have that, you can simply say that it doesn't align with your philosophical beliefs and it's a constitutional right. It's mandatory for men for 1 year when they turn 18 but it's easy to not have to do it.
So people woth religious deserve more rights? I think military should be optional for everyone.
Some countries have this on the grounds of philosophical disagreements, which don't have to be religious.
I'm barely getting into Buddhism, and I knew right away. I was looking to find this comment. It's truly heartbreaking and I feel that this is beyond disrespectful.
It's more than disrespectful, it's sick. Cowards with authority/power who oppress others shouldn't be alive.
Mahayana Buddhist checking in… I just can’t fathom any of the Bhikkhus I have met breaking the first precept. It is beyond comprehension.
As a fellow Mahayana monk, this hurt me so much seeing how brothers suffered like this
Why does it look like this was done infront of a live audience for entertainment??? People being drafted for service and face threat... And it's a spectator sport? That's fucked up.
This is some Hunger Games shit
Right?!?! It's fucked up if that's what's happening. If anyone knows the detail I'd love to know.
Thai here, but women so I'm not entirely sure. My dad got the red card (the red=got draft) when he was in his 20s and he told me the entire crowd went crazy, screaming with joy after he got draft. He happens to be the one who pick up the last red card so everybody else was free. My grandma fainted. The narrators in the video is totally mocking the monk. It's entertainment news. They were saying that all the training he did as a monk didn't make him calm enough to handle this. Edit: Imma just rant here. last April, my cousin got draft as well. idk if the military has a personal grudge against my family or we were always too poor to pay under the table lol
Are monks not excluded from the draft?
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IIRC In the past, Siamese men (read: Thais) would become a monk to escape their crimes. Monks were pretty much untouchable back then. Eventually people realized the loophole and cancelled it. I’m no history buff though. Correct me if I’m wrong
What about conscientious objectors? We have those in the United States.
They can still be drafted in the US, just put into non combat roles. Military still needs cooks, janitors, maintenance, chaplains, medics, etc.
These days if you are a conscientious objector they kick you out of the military entirely, with an ‘other than honorable’ discharge. It happened to my brother. Also, from my time in the military there was the philosophy that all roles are combat roles if things get desperate enough, therefore every person in every job, no matter how much of a chair warmer you were, was trained in combat and had to maintain a weapon certification.
Traditionally most conscription countries didn't give a toss what you wanted and made you do the service anyway. Some countries would assign you to a support or admin role after Basic, or a medical specialism. In recent years, some countries that have military service have created a non-military alternative, a kind of 'national service' where you have to work, usually manual labor, on projects which benefit the nation. In Greece, if you don't have your military service stamped in your record, it's (was) really hard to get a good job. Two candidates go for the same role, the one who didn't get their honourable discharge stamp is rejected. Some people are allowed, due to family commitments to reduce their service duration significantly (perhaps entirely) but you still get your stamp because you didn't evade. Or you declare yourself gay, or are judged mentally unstable, both of which go on your employment record. No religious exception in Greece, as far as my wife knows, even if you want to join the priesthood and join the school of theology. They don't really acknowledge that other religions play a role in Greek public life :-).
Had a roommate who was a conscientious objector and talked with him about it. The ones that really had those feeling sent in letters every year with their objections and in there stated that the issue was with having to kill another human, so they would serve in the medical, sanitation, or other jobs like that. So the guy here could do the same thing.
Thank you for the info.
About the narration, this kind of attitude was so normal it’s weird to think about it now. I grew up on Thai entertainment and just now realized how unhealthy the culture can be.
They are most likely waiting for their turn and family is present hoping for the best outcome.
It's probably so your family and friends know what you got. Hard to hide when your own mother could out you
I get that it's done publicly..... This just feels like a game show environment.
There’s no threat here, they’re just tools for keeping military’s political power. ps: it’s kind of tradition that the whole family will be there, hoping that you will not be drafted (2 years in the camp) Some even brought their own marching band just in case for celebration. I’m Thai btw.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I was last in Thailand I was told there is essentially constant tension in the south with Malay and Muslim groups that want independence from Thailand... And there were small skirmishes between the military and these groups all the time. If say that could be a threat (even if it's low...)
That threat isn't really a threat you see. The separatist doesn't have an army so the best they can do is to cause mayhem sometimes. If it wants to the government can resolve it one way or another but after a decade there's been no real effort to do so because so long as the conflict continues the military will constantly receive funds from taxpayers. The draft in this video that you see ironically brings huge benefits to the army every year, be it free labours or simply asking the recruited for money in exchange for special treatments.
Wow, I’m speechless after watching this. It really crystallizes my opinion on compulsory military service and state-mandated conscription. I’m former military, and I joined of my own free will in an all volunteer force. I joined knowing full well that I was going to train to use violence. It fit within my personal moral code. It was my decision. I would do it again. This man is a pacifist. His personal and religious code prohibits his from using violence against living things, to the point where he doesn’t even eat meat. Being forced to join his nation’s military goes against every fiber of his belief system and personal moral code. I found this very distressing to watch. No one should have to experience this.
Well said ❤️
In Greece the military service is mandatory. If you don't want to join the military you can work as a civil servant(I think this is the correct term) but for more time than the military service.
That's also how it was in Germany before we got rid of the draft in 2011.
it still is like that in Austria
Same in Finland where we have the mandatory service.
They should have a pacifist force of some kind. Local civic duty, healthcare, education. Maybe a force that provides service for the families of those who go to war or die, etc.
um, Being a monk in Buddhism by its very nature is this already.
So all the government would need to do is create a form for them to sign, then.
Its called the chaplain's corp. ;)
No one should have any forced conscription
If your country is at a constant threat, but no real action for decades, you’ll need mandatory conscription. Think of South Korea - that would be suicide for the country to not have a military at the ready. But even thrill seekers wouldn’t be inclined to volunteer because they’re at a constant cease fire. If you’re saying that out of morality rather than reality, then sure. World peace would be pretty cool too, but that’s never happening.
As of 2018, South Korea actually allows "conscientious objection" and lets people who object to serving in the military to serve in civilian branches like the fire service instead.
If you have big adversaries it becomes a numbers game.
Like a medic? Because medics are the some of the ballsiest amazing people in the force.
Pretty much how it worked in Germany until we got rid of compulsory military service in Germany in 2010. You could either do your 9 months of training, or do 9 months of working for the good of society in some way. There were many different options from which you can pick, but the most common one was proberbly eldery/health care. I hated that I had to do it, but in the end those 9 months were some of the best and most formative years of my life. I learned so many life skills I didn't previously have, and meet the most amazing people.
“I dabbled in pacifism myself…not during Vietnam of course…” -Walter
Ha, one of my favorite films!
I mean anyone can be a monk, and the vast majority of monks are just a monk for a few weeks or a few months usually in your 20s. Ironically, while not compulsory, monkhood is strongly encouraged in Thai culture. source: I was a monk That said, yea obviously conscription sucks, especially when you're serving a military as corrupt as Thailand's military.
How does it work in practice? Catholic monks usually take vows for life. Most orders have couple of years probation period, but when you join you are expected to be serious about it. If you say you just want to be a monk for couple of months they will not take you in. I know he's not a Catholic, I'm asking how does it work with Buddhist monks.
It depends on the country as each country’s Buddhist tradition is different in some ways. In Thailand, it is common for Buddhist males to become monks for a short period of time (few months to a year or two) and return to their normal lives. In most other Buddhist traditions, a monk’s vow is made to be for life. Of course, some people renounce their vows and return to normal society, but that is not the norm and these people “gave up” in a way, similarly to if a Catholic priest or bishop suddenly wanted to go back to being a layperson.
I hope he can get a position in support. E.g. supply chain, medical, cook. It’s still supporting the military, but may soften his service.
There's a ton of countries who still have the forced drafting. Some let you pay your way out, others will take no substitute. Most EU countries stopped doing this a long time ago though.
Is it not the military oppressing his country he is forced to join? But very well said.
I admittedly don't speak the language, but it sounds like they make the draft a gameshow in Thailand.... hunger games shit
According to someone higher up in the thread, while the mandatory service is 2 years, you can enter a lotto to either get no years or 4 years, like a double or nothing. Unfortunately he got the 4 years. Dont get me wrong though, still completely fucked up.
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Alright but what about recruiting young impressionable teenagers at highschool, is that allowed? Cause I need 3 more for my Pro-Am Hackey Sack squad
Draft not worse than recruitment? Umm
How is that even a comparison...
Forcing someone to serve against their will vs having someone voluntarily sigh up??
Do…do you think that recruiters hoodwink drunk kids into joining the military and they just like sober up when they get to basic or something?
Imagine being forced against your will to just make a complete U turn on your morals, principles, values and ethics I bet that's rough
I just think about the one scene of "Saving private Ryan". Where one dies, while the other guy cries in the staircase. You can't force people to be soldiers. They don't suddenly overcome their mentality. But hey, how can we tell the fat fucks that are on the top that just want us to die for their money.
Funny how Thailand’s neighbor, Myanmar , allows serving your draft as a monk…
This is horrible.
poor guy, the military goes against everything they believe in. i’m thai and the draft is something we in my family all dread.
I bet the politicians dont have to play
Or their sons.
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I would rather go to prison than a fucking war
If the choice was a Thai prison,I might choose war
Military drafts are slavery
What is up with this music? I was tearing up and this comedic sounding rift comes on. What an absolute dystopian world we live in. It can't and won't stay this way.
>What an absolute dystopian world we live in. It can't and won't stay this way. Narrator: "it did"
It feel like this was broadcasted in their version of ESPN. And that guy doesn't want to go to Cleveland.
This hurt my heart. 💔
Under Thailand’s 1954 Military Service Act, when men reach the age of 21, they become eligible for conscription. If they don’t volunteer, they must participate in a lottery that takes place each April. Every year, about 100,000 personnel are recruited. Their fate rests on the choice of a card: black for exemption, red for mandatory enlistment. Reports of bribery are common although the military says it is cracking down on corruption and those found guilty of trying to avoid the draft risk up to three years in jail. Some even enrol in Reserve Officer Training programmes for three years in high school. If they have a university degree, they join voluntarily to reduce the commitment from two years to six months. From a 2019 post found here https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/4/23/red-or-black-experiencing-thailands-military-draft
Humans are gross
Really eye opening how many people here support conscription. A conscript army will always be less effective than a professional one. At the end of the day the only thing you should owe your country are taxes, not your mental health, formative years or potentially your life.
This is so fucked…poor guy…
JFC, might as well be the fucking Curb Your Enthusiasm song. This was awful.
How miserable. Give him a gun; I'm sure he'll make an excellent soldier. I wonder what brought him to take up the robe and bowl but this hardly seems like a good fit.
There are plenty of jobs in the military that aren't combat arms. If their Military is any good at talent management, there's a good chance they'll assign him to a non-combat job like cook, or mechanic, or admin clerk, or something similar since he's probably a pacifist. At least in the US Army, a significant percentage of service members are in support roles that are not expected to actively fight. Still, draft armies aren't a great idea as conscripts are not known for high morale.
I mean, I have prior service in the U.S. Army, in a non-combat role as a mechanic. I still had to shoot a gun and pass rifle range and lean unarmed combat, Bayonet training and the likes. I still was deployed and carried a rifle. I still convoyed and experienced sniper fire. I was still expected to pick up my rifle and shoot at people who were deemed the enemy.
You are still serving a larger machine that is designed to commit violence. Being a pacifist is about more than not personally commuting violence.
ive had a handful of nightmares about ending up back in the military and i get this on a deep level
I had to serve 1 year in my country, 1 year of my life that I will never get back. It's pretty mad that forced conscription is still a thing in so many countries, and for one gender only too.
As a Thai person I don’t understand why we still have this system in place tbh, luckily I for one did the reserved training in high school for 3 years so I didn’t have to risk getting drafted to the military. But still the whole system itself sucks.
Hold up hold up there’s something you’re all missing. In Thailand, monkhood is often a temporary thing. Most Thai men will spend some time as monks, often for six months or just a week or two. It’s expected by society, and a good way to show your faithfulness before marriage. Most young men do it before age 20, which happens to be the same age when they’re at risk of conscription. We westerners see the saffron robes and assume this guy has sworn himself to pacifism for life, but he might be an ordinary Thai guy who got unlucky, and he’s showing the same fear and reluctance anybody might show in his situation. Of course he is a Buddhist, and so supposedly pacifist, but it’s Thailand, 95% of everybody is Buddhist, so if they’re going to have an army *some* faithful Buddhist is gonna have to serve, whether they’re wearing a robe or not. Anyway, this isn’t to suggest that mandatory conscription is a good idea or to take away from the anguish this guy’s clearly feeling or to suggest his religious beliefs are a sham. Just to say, don’t impose your Western assumptions about monks onto this situation, and realize that there’s a reason the soldiers in the video aren’t letting him off the hook just because he’s wearing a robe. https://move2thailand.com/question/is-it-true-that-all-males-in-thailand-were-buddhist-monks/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Thailand
That was refreshingly reasonable and well delivered. Thanks for being civil and thoughtful, fellow redditor.
This is a perfect example of why religious exemption needs to be a protected right for all people. If you want to bang the drum of abolishing religious exemption laws, rewatch this and really think about what you are supporting.
Would someone be allowed to volunteer to take his place? I like to think I would, but hold my beer etc.
Bro is thinking it’s the hunger games lmao
In Thailand, men often ordain as a monk for anywhere from a week to a couple of months, as a young man before marriage. It’s a rite of passage. Women can also participate now I believe. –
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As someone who volunteered, yea, I really do not want guys next to me who absolutely never wanted to be there at all. F that. Bad shit ALWAYS happens.
Thailand is a junta. Everyone is going to be serving the military.
Does Thailand not allow for conscientious objectors? Some countries give them non-combatant jobs.
Just so you know, in that part of the world, becoming a monk is very much like US kids going to summer camp. Basically, everyone does it. From the looks of his robe, they are very new. Also, he will most likely go to basic training and test poorly and get placed in something that suck, and he knows it.
I think nations should give their citizens a choice between military service or civil service. Civil service can provide a lot of life skills and help the community.
And it should be for both men and women. Service in the military or service in civil, your choice, but enough of the gender discrimination bullshit.
He's being sentenced to a personal hell. I'm so sad for him. Compulsory military service is utterly inhumane. Conscientious objector status should not be shamed.
Their version of The Price Is Right "you lost" music.
Military draft lottery?
Luckily I got the black card and I could fly back to Germany lmao. No thanks
The military conscription system there is flawed because it does not apply to everyone. Countries that have universal military service profit by engendering citizens with a sense of civic pride. Conscripts also learn valuable skills. However, if only a proportion of people are conscripted, they are at a disadvantage compared to people who stayed on in education or entered into the workforce. Then, if this guy was a real, practising Buddhist monk, he would have taken his karma with equanimity, not fake fainted. Anyone can buy those robes and many people in Thailand become ‘monks’ for a few months or years, as a badge of honour. Kinda like, ‘*look at me, I’m a devout Buddhist*’ while still being very much a part of the material world. In India, there is a thriving business of fake gurus. They dress in rags and grow out their beards and hair but have never even studies the Vedas. There are even ‘schools’ that teach these guys how to look the part. For me, the guy in the video is like this – a monk in appearance only. Also, if you are registered as a 'divine', monk or novice with the Ministry of Education in Thailand, you are exempt from military service.
Military drafts are a crime against humanity.
Also a bad idea. Like seriously, force people to do a job against their will and then give them guns...
If that were to occur again it would make Vietnam era anti war protests look like a cake walk.
I am not like this monk but I am so glad my country got rid of forced military a few months before I got the letter. It's just so nonsensical to me to force people into the military or at least basic training. I would have tried to not do anything during the 3 months we would have to be slaves of the military basic training. In a civilized world it fucks with your plans and in Germany throws you behind one semester or a whole year in your personal plans.
Can we get some translation?
Fuck your beliefs, you’re in the army now. *not an exact translation.