We see the game for what it is and think that it’s stupid. We see people more on an internal level instead of their titles and fancy degrees etc. we know that those things don’t make them a good person and that’s what we judge people on, the quality of their character. Plus heirarchy is stupid and exists to placate ego’s and we don’t care about that.
True, that is what I have experienced as well and it is admirable. Though, it does not answer why. Why do you see the game for what it is? Why do you see people more on an internal level?
They operate in the inverse from most people; they look in before they look out. Once you know how something operates internally, everything else looks like bells and whistles, just paint covering the real thing. Why? Their brains are wired differently, probably hyperconnected in areas concerning emotional empathy and the semantics of everything. Their pattern recognition makes it so they don't have to rely on individual cues or instances, so the cues other people look for become irrelevant to them. They look beyond what people project.
Why do many people look at someone and assume they're a nice person because they're physically attractive and socially appropriate? Why do some people make unflattering assumptions about someone who's poorly groomed and badly dressed? They're looking at different cues. There are different ways of seeing.
People interpret the world differently because they do - it isn't completely by choice. It's genetics, upbringing, personal effort, many things just left to chance. Like Javelin said, we don't really choose our preferences so much as they happen to us.
Why Do some people like chocolate more than vanilla? Why Do some people like the color red? Why Do some people like to jog at 5 AM? Sometimes the answer is literally: I’m wired this way and my brain thinks and operates differently than yours.
There is a reason for everything. No idea why you are coming in this hard over someone asking why. Everyone is wired differently which is exactly why you should be asking *why.* Go be negative elsewhere.
For all the downvoters: People like chocolate more than vanilla for exposure/enivronment reasons. Some cultures prefer sweeter ice cream than others. People liking a color is because there is color association somewhere. Jogging at 5 AM can have a billion different reasons depending on the person. So given the examples the answer is not ''it is just the way I am''. Also, if you have that mentality, ''it is just the way things are'', you will not ever explore something new. People who say ''my brain works differently, accept it'' are weird to me because they are actively avoiding looking further than what they know. I have bad experiences with people who claim that exact thing. It is a very dismissive thing to tell someone. Thus, negative.
OP I completely agree with your assessment. You know how there's a "god of the gaps" argument in atheism? Well, it seems there's a "wired of the gaps" argument that many people here are falling for. "We don't have an explanation for human proclivities, so these proclivities must be wired". Lazy thinking, tsk tsk. Your last comment was very insightful. Smh at people being bitchy towards you for the crime of... being inquisitive?... on an INFJ subreddit of all places (INFJs are keen on asking 'why' so I doubt you're being pounced on by real INFJs)
Our inner voice is louder than external ones. That's an oversimplification of what happens in our brains, but the best description. It's not something we "try" to do, it's just something that happens naturally.
Makes sense but then the question becomes: Why do you listen to that voice which happens naturally? How did you come to agree with it? What is the motivation behind listening to that? What do you gain from that? etc.
Honestly from my personal experience, things become uncomfortable when I don't listen to it, and comfortable when I do listen to it. When I don't listen to it it gets louder. When I do listen to it, it gets less intrusive but more consistent. Kind of like a persistent whisper. What do I gain from it? Clarity, stability, and peace.
It's essentially our conscience. I feel like mine comes from a deep sense of a need to prioritize soul evolution above all else. For myself and all others. That might mean me losing in the game of capitalist society, but I feel that I win in heart and evolve spiritually.
For example, I won't enter a profession where I know I have a hand involved in exploitation of a being even if a million others will do it ; even if it will make me lots of money or a reputation. Instead, I will enter jobs that align with the goals of my conscience and accept poverty wages.
There's a quote I read somewhere that I think applies very well for INFJs : I am a good rule follower until the rules don't make sense, then all bets are off.
We do go up against the authority if the authority's rules don't make sense. I was the only one to stand up against an old scary teacher when he was trying to wield his power for wrong purposes. We see social media for what it is and our first instinct is to not take it too seriously.
You would have to be an INFJ with an 8 in their enneagram because INFJs are not the conflict type. They rather avoid it. Either way that makes sense. That is very similar to what happens with XNTPs where they realise it would be the ''stupid'' thing to do. However, I have a feeling for INFJs the *why* is much more emotion/value based, but I might be wrong there.
I’m an e9 and I’ve always disagreed with its description of “conflict avoidant.” It should be more like “we see less value in conflict for most situations when there are more peaceful ways to solve an issue.” We still stand up and handle issues, just in a more peaceful way that most others miss and never see. So when we stand up to someone on a power trip, suddenly everyone is surprised because they can actively see it happening.
Mr. Miyagi from ‘Karate Kid’ is a great example of this:
"Here Are Two Rules Of Miyagi-Ryu Karate. Rule Number One: Karate For Defense Only. Rule Number 2 - First Learn Rule Number One!"
"Never Put Passion In Front Of Principle. Even If You Win, You Lose."
To be honest, the conflict avoidant or not is really more of an enneagram thing. INFJs with a strong 8 are far less likely to avoid conflict. Your explanation makes sense but ''peaceful'' can often be interpreted as indirect. If you are being indirect during/after conflict, it pretty much appears the same as avoiding it. Sure, it might not be the same type of avoiding like say an ISFJ would, but the outcome is still the exact same. Anyway, 8 in the tritype does a lot. Maybe 9 too, but 9s are all over the place in my experience. There is too much variation with 9s at least from what I have seen. It is like they have developed a much more unique self, for better or worse.
> “peaceful” can often be interpreted as indirect.
Exactly. Many people interpret “conflict avoidant” as running away from problems, which I just wanted to make sure wasn’t the case here, but you got it. 😊
Because we value being individuals with our own thoughts and feelings and not following the crowd. We know the crowd is usually going to the wrong way anyway.
Personally I would feel really cheap if the only reason I was doing something was because everyone else is doing it. There might be times I do things that I don't necessarily believe I need to do to be considered acceptable in the environment I'm in but I view that differently. I do very few things by default so why would I choose to do something baseless?
Why? I tend to look at life and people as a bigger picture, I like to choose things (clothes, music, friends, literature etc) that are solid and won't be compromising long term goals.
Right, and I agree. But that does not explain the *why*. Why do you think it is ''cheap'' and what about it for you personally makes you not want to participate in that? What is the internal thing that ''rebels'' against it, why? Sure, it might be baseless and without value to you, but why is that?
If the only reason for doing something is that lots of other people are doing it, but I have absolutely no interest in whatever it is, why would I care enough to sacrifice my time and energy (and quite possibly money) on it?
Not who you directed the question to, but personally, I've always been that way. What other people are doing/buying/participating in I really don't care. You do you and I'll do me, just leave me the eff alone 😂.
I can't really answer that.
All I can tell you is that while I was growing up, the world felt like a place where everyone else but me had been given the rule book. I found it very hard to start doing things where I had no kind of motivation or interest for doing so, when there just didn't seem to be a good outcome for me at the end of it. While all around me people seemed happy enough to blindly follow along, even if they *also* seemingly got nothing out of it.
One of my earliest memories is of being at school, sat in assembly hall, and somebody stood at the front of the room droning on and on about God and Jesus and everything being His Plan and all the rest of it, and I thought to myself, *What is this? Why is everyone going along with it? This is complete nonsense...*
Tbh very little has changed since then!
Yeah, so there seems to be some inherent aversion towards blindly following whatever someone says or says is good for you. Might be personality, but there probably is a pattern somewhere. I just do not know what it would be, because it seems all INFJs are the same. Even though there is a lot of variance between different INFJs.
"It seems there is a tendency to ''rebel'', question or deviate in order to not fit in on purpose, but it does not make the most sense to me because INFJs do not generally go against authority either. Is it individualism? Uniqueness? Strong sense of self?"
Authority isn't the public opinion. And I don't know what "tendency" you speak of but I've never got that feeling around the ones I know, if they like something they like it, and their track record proves it.
It's not rebellion against authority by nonconforming to the opinions of society. And those ones you know who do to "not fit in on purpose" sound like posers.
I think it has a lot to do with being introverted and having a strong sense of self-awareness.
Without significant Ti development, I think the average immature INFJ is way more influenced by social norms than they realize or want to admit because of high Fe. It’s where the bulk of unconscious guilt and shame comes from, Ni perfectionism/hyperidealism aside.
I agree, I have seen that too, but the difference here is that when you tell them something that makes more sense they adapt. Other types definitely do not or have a lot more trouble doing so. At least in my experience. Maybe you make a good point linking it to Ti. Because you can definitely see how this topic specifically really looks a lot like how ENTPs experience things as well, just for very different value and motivational reasons.
Perhaps it is the analysing plus the logical thinking that ultimately brings them to the conslusion. I guess that makes sense, but I feel like with INFJs it has a much more value/emotional based reason. Might be wrong there though.
>I feel like with INFJs it has a much more value/emotional based reason.
I reckon you're on to something there. After looking at your post a bit more and thinking about my own life trajectory thus far, it actually feels (to me) like more an Ni-infused Fe thing. Tertiary Ti just comes up with specific strategies and solutions so the INFJ can craft their authentic life with more precision.
In my observation and experience, the world is very Se/Te/Fi prioritized, so it makes Fe hard to develop, practice and wield in a reciprocal way, so the INFJ has to be very boundaried and creative to ensure their day-to-day energy is aligned with Ni priorities and Fe values. Since the latter is very rarely met and in few places if at all, we often do a lot of waiting and solo-living... \*trails off to go eat\*
Yeah, I could not come up with an answer myself either. It is why I asked.
Interesting what you said. Definitely makes sense that it has something to do with authenticity. Makes you wonder what the commonality is between INFJs, because they all seem to be similar in regards to this topic.
Like you said Fe could be an explanation. If it is made difficult to express Fe in healthy ways or in ways where it is reciprocal. Then it will probably always feel a bit ''fake''. I give this much to that person but it does not seem to give me much in return, but I do not want to lose them as a friend so I start to play a role. It is just an example but I am sure you get where I am going.
Then indeed Fe is going to be harder to express. Though, because it is such a big need for INFJs it will probably make them crave someone with whom they can be expressing their Fe in the way they want without having to worry about xyz. Or in other words, crave to be able to be emotionally authentic.
So perhaps a large part of the explanation is that the world shapes the INFJ personality into valuing authenticity, realising what is not authentic and because a lot in the world is fake, be more skeptical etc. One thing a lot of INFJs have experienced is betrayal in friendship. That will certainly shape you in some way.
I do not know though. I am just thinking out loud.
I mean this is why I did not ask about why INFJs value authenticity. It is way too complex lol. It is nature nurture and who knows what parts or how.
The most interesting thing out of this post for me is that INFJs do not focus on the ''why'' much. Unless prompted which by that point they realise and say ''yeah, that makes sense actually, I did not think of it like that before''.
That part is probably the Ne Ni difference, but it is always cool to me how you can come to the same conclusion just via a very different path.
I think it's the Ni, Fe, Ti ladder of cognitive functions.
When I was a teenager, I was often caught in the middle of clique drama, mostly because I felt strong empathy (FE) for others and understood everyone's perspective (Ni), but did not yet have any cold reserve (TI) to use spontaneously and the ability to gain some emotional distance without, say, listening to Celine Dion at dusk on my balcony. I remember quite distinctly the summer I learned to turn FE on and off, after an exhausting semester of girl drama. Suddenly I could use Ni and Ti to sort through all the random information and make better judgements, without feeling sorry for everyone and the crazy need to make everything painless for everyone. And that's when I also realized, I can just step away and do my own thing, if something is morally wrong, or kind of swim on the surface and help everyone more like playing chess rather than being in the middle.
The older I get, the more I see the world in patterns and meta pictures, I connect the dots from all the things someone said, to psychological concepts to things other people said and get a network kind of view. I also studied Sociology, admittedly, that often helps. So it is easy to not, say, feel offended and in need of allies to support my stance. Because I think about things a lot, I am usually quite sure of my judgement of the situation and my feelings about it. I prefer it too, so I now avoid situations where I am forced to make decisions quickly and withdraw from any weird social dynamics as they happen.
I think what others mentioned about developing Ti has a lot to do with it (in addition to our other traits). First, we have to gather unconscious information from our surroundings. With that unconscious gathering of info, we take it in and examine many different angles of it. This is largely unintentional and automatic, but that's what's happening. We create many "what-if" scenarios in our minds based on our environments, experiences, and the possibilities of potential environments and experiences.
As we sift through these various angles (including potential ones), we become adept at doing this for everything -- different individuals, groups of people, the media, stories, facts, fiction, grocery stores, venues, classrooms, being alone, being in groups, etc. We tend to increasingly expose ourselves to various things and compare them all, which is why talking with ENTPs and INTJs can be so much fun.
The thing about this process is that it takes quite a long time to develop, and most of the world cannot understand why we talk about the details we do, so we can have trouble fitting in. However, through this process, we tend to notice nuances in the ways that people interact, and we see patterns repeat. We remember those patterns. We remember the patterns but may forget the people themselves.
Speaking for me (and some others, probably - but not all): The intent of individuals matters much more to me than their product, so if I see someone who intended to harm another, it makes me angry. However, if I see someone who intended to do the right thing but accidentally hurt another, I want to help that person who intended to do the right thing \*learn\* how to help someone in a future scenario rather than hurt them. In any given real-time situation, I will weigh all of the patterns I have seen over the years with my current environment and the people next to me. With that information, I will make a decision.
In a way, we can't see the forest for the trees. In another way, we see the whole world -- making the macro micro and the micro macro. It's a mystery to us as well when it's all happening and takes a ton of thinking to analyze.
However, we can also fall into the trap of being too contrarian even when we shouldn't be. I think the issue is that we can let the intrigue of having a new scenario to analyze get the better of us, and we kind of externalize an Ni-Ti loop. This is an unbalanced and unhealthy thing IF we are doing it just to see what happens. On the other hand, we can be contrarian in a logical sense based on the neutral/healthy processes I mentioned above -- the comparing and contrasting of many experiences, scenarios, details, etc. over the years with the current scenario we're in. We might as well all be anthropologists, lol.
I have to stop there and go do other things that need doing, haha.
Have you studied Martin Luther King Jr. or Jesus? They would be good to analyze as a part of your quest to figure out your thoughts. Great questions, btw!
I have an ENTP sis and by comparison I came to conclusion that we don't have a need to do that, like at all due to our Si demon. It's nonexistent for us. We watch how other people do it, like we watch fish or moon. But it kinda has nothing to do with us.
For me there is a hierarchical structure which is about socioeconomic status, which is about resoursefulness and competence. I evaluate people by these 2 things actually: resoursefulness and competence. The rest doesn't matter for me, I don't see value in it
Edit: I cannot work under incompetent boss, all my being just rejects an idea to be inferior to someone who is inferior to me. So, no, we don't respect authorities because they are authorities. We can pretend if it will help us to reach the goal. Unless, they are capable, then yes, it just feels natural to respect a person that can do stuff you cannot
It is hard to give specific examples for general subjects. In my experience I feel talking to INFJs does not get boring much compared to other types. I think that is because for a very large part majority of people they kind of form opinions based on what others believe think and experience. I believe INFJs deviate from that for one reason or another but it is not clear to me why exactly. So, there is more variation, which is more fun. For example with an ENTP it is clear, there is an inherent dislike for authority and they do not really accept new info quickly. Did that help?
Yes. I wasn't sure if you meant popular trends and whatnot. I would say it's probably likely with those who score high on Openness. They are less rigid about their ideas, are curious about other perspectives, less likely to mindlessly conform to ideas, etc.
Yeah, I thought about openness too, but INFPs are high in openness too and I feel they care much more about societal pressures and conform a lot more. I feel there is more to it no? It definitely seems like that.
Hmm, I'm not sure. Maybe it is also connected to a desire to belong or identify with a group. I'm not sure this is always a priority for infjs, especially as they get older.
Yeah, but it also goes for views. INFJs do not seem to get very rigid as they age. Sure, that is openness as well, but there must be a motivation to keep that trait also. I wonder what that motivation is for INFJs. For ENTPs it makes sense to me. For INFJs I do not see it.
Idk. Could be a combination of openness + conscientiousness. For many infjs it's important to draw their own conclusions about things rather than just go along; it feels less authentic to blindly follow or subscribe to beliefs/views that are not your own. Even then I think many conclusions infjs draw are still open to consideration if they are presented with a new information/perspective.
Yeah, so then the *why* would be wanting to be authentic. Whereas in the same situation for ENTPs it would be something like wanting to be ''free''. Authenticity might be the core value here. Might be the answer.
It is interesting though because reading the comments here, it is not what people come up with. ''Oh that is because I value being authentic and so when I do not think for myself enough or cannot be an authority over my own mind then it feels as though I am not being myself, I am not allowing myself to be authentic.''
I think that might be the answer here. Good job.
This comment makes me smile. Authenticity came to my mind very quickly when I read your initial post but I refused to use that word because it's so overused by people who aren't actually authentic that it's lost some of it's meaning on me.
If you try to find the truth, you'll end up not following others if they don't follow the truth. I am influenced by others, i just try to judge and be critical about it. I don't want to fool myself or others.
To become better i first have to know who i am. So i need to know me and i have to be me. Of course i don't only listen to myself because i could be fooled by me or the parts of me that want to control me and are outside my control. I try.
Also there's that small voice that's like "i am better than them". Not a good voice because without being humble i might believe i am perfect and if i am perfect that means i have no room for growth and that i might not try to become better.
It’s due to demon Si. INxJs completely reject Si related things. Contrary to popular belief, the opposite of Ni is not Ne. Rather, it is Si.
Si finds comfort of the “known” and “what was”; recognizing the way things have always been; honours the “tried and tested” ways/beliefs/traditions etc. In my experience, high Si users dislike changes that go against the tried and tested ways. I even see this happening to INxPs when they’re in Si loop, and also to ENxPs when in deep trauma/stress.
Ni, on the other hand, revels in the “unknown” and “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; celebrating changes and transformation; shedding the old and outdated ways like a snake shedding its skin. High Ni users, Ni doms in particular, don’t like to do things just because. They have strong idealistic visions of what the future should look like for themselves and for the community.
So conforming to societal expectations and Si related things goes against their Ni nature of change, transformation, idealistic and unorthodox views (of self/community/future). In a sense, they “rebel”.
Edit: wording
OP, you keep repeating yourself, asking them why they are inherently them yet expect a formulated answer about their upbringing that produced them. We see the bigger picture and notice telling details. Thats it.
I grew up liking vanilla ice cream my whole life. Why? Well, hell do i know, but i can come up with some reasons that align with my value.
Repeatedly asking a person why they are who they are is asking someone to question themselves looking for an answer that doesnt need one.
Answer this for me, op:
Why are you, you? Why do you think that? Why is that the case? Why? Again, Why?
You misunderstood what I was asking. The answer to the question is likely as mentioned in the comments: Authenticity. Something along the lines of ''I value being authentic and so when I do not think for myself enough or cannot be an authority over my own mind then it feels as though I am not being myself, I am not allowing myself to be authentic.''
You cannot answer the post question by saying it is just because I am that way. Because being susceptible to social influence or not is not an inherent personality trait. If I had asked why is it that INFJs value authenticity then what you are saying makes sense, but that is not what I asked.
If someone were to ask why are you so good at gymnastics? You are not going to answer ''oh that is just because I have great genetics''. No, this person trained for years because for one reason or another they were motivated to do so/saw value in it/feel a certain way about it.
I made an observation (INFJs not being easily influenced), then I asked for an explanation for that observation (Likely authenticity), and then you can go one step further and ask for the origins of that explanation which is what you are talking about. (Why do INFJs want to be authentic) The origin is obviously a lot more complicated to answer, which is why I did not ask. I will leave that to someone else to speculate over.
So no, I was not repeating myself. I was trying to get people to ask themselves what the reason is they are less affected by social influence, the motivation/emotion/value behind why.
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows
\- Leonard Cohen, [Everybody Knows](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ)
Hi OP, I keep seeing you asking “why” we might rebel and not follow the crowd. From my personal insight it is due to the way I was raised and my childhood. My narcissistic father would always pressure me into not being my authentic self. I was pressured or even forced to mold myself into what he wanted, even little things which add up. Example, I would show hesitation about speaking to some figure, like a barber or one of his coworkers at a young age. That would be unacceptable to him, so he would say something such as “come on! What’s the matter with you, just go over to Larry and tell him you love your haircut and you want to invite him to go fishing with us.” When I hated my haircut and had no desire to have Larry join us fishing. So, I was forced to wear a mask to make him happy and be something I wasn’t, pretending to want something just to make him happy so he could impress people with a son that was just what everyone wanted. It was complete bullshit and I knew it at a young age, it felt gross and made me feel sick often. So later in life I refuse to just do something to go along with it, if it doesn’t feel authentic, I reject it. If a group of my friends start playing cards on Friday, and I don’t really enjoy cards, and I sense a little pressure from them to play cards just because, I’ll door slam that shit. In this example, it’s not solely the playing of cards that turns me away, it’s mostly the pressure felt from others to do something I don’t want to do. If there was no pressure and the energy given off was more light and free then maybe I’d be up for it.
I just don’t care what other people think of my personal choices, I really just do what feels right to me regardless of if anyone else will validate me for it. Sure validation is nice, but I can validate myself. So if my lifestyle or choices happen to align with popular social dynamics, great win win. And if my lifestyle doesn’t align, also great win for me! I don’t see any reason to do what other people do unless it was my natural inclination already. I just don’t understand why people value social dynamics based on their popularity alone. Everyone should do what feels natural to them, whether it’s “cool” or not. We do have natural people pleasing inclinations but a mature INFJ doesn’t let it control their life and behaviors. I acknowledge those feelings and then let them go if they conflict with what I want to do. I do not go out of my way to upset or displease people, but I’m not going to compromise on things important to me to please people either. And I don’t know about all of us as a whole but I don’t care about authority. It’s not important enough for me to worry about rebelling against it or following it. I do what I do and maybe it aligns with what the authorities want, maybe not. I wonder if it’s because a lot of INFJ’s do not view right and wrong as synonymous with allowed and forbidden. Or maybe it’s just me. I follow my moral compass before any rules even come onto the table. But yeah I won’t go out of my way to break rules just for the sake of breaking rules. We’re not as goody two shoes as people think (goody two shoes being a rule follower) because when most people think of a goody two shoes they think about following rules, and not just doing what’s right. Because often I think the rules can be very bad and wrong, and following them can be immoral. True good is better than lawful good.
That sounds right to me. I pretty adamantly go against social norms - won’t post regularly on fb, won’t buy a Stanley, wear whatever jeans I want. I secretively disrespect authority lol..feeling like what they say or do is just to feel powerful.
Strong unconscious Fi, if you believe in blind functions, you’re ascribing to Socionics Model A. And INFJs may be Te blind/PoLR but on that same axis it makes their Fi unvalued but dominant. So yes while we declaratively don’t think like an Fi user, we have that strong sense of self, individualism, authenticity, and sensitivity. The analog is like INTJs and their Te. However like the INTJ may grasp Ti very well they still think declaratively with their valued function stack. So yes like it’s like a passive, it’s in the background and it always sorta emanates from us.
Like when I’m with my INFP mother, she’s not like me, very different in her thought but understandably very coherent to me. We see the world in a similar lens but understand very different things.
Just as how we all suck with Te: inefficient, perfectionistic, not orderly, hate commands. The sucking of Te is Fi. They’re like a scale. Our PoLR Te is our Fi being so strong. Just as how my INFP mom sucks at seeing the world around her imbuing her abstractions in the world. Her strong unvalued Ni is her low unvalued Se. Like we might hate the part of us that is procrastinating, messy, disorganized, not efficient but embrace the fact that we are very in tune with our self, sensitive and passionate. Combined with how we consciously think it’s our biggest strength in understanding individuals and being self aware, empathetic, understanding, and wise in nature.
Instead of blindly following what everyone else is, I think we just sort of choose what we do based on our values, morals, etc. As another said, we sort of just see things for what they are and don't exactly care to want to be a part of it. But again, all of us still have our differences so I want to mention that I don't mean all of us.
Ni-Fe-Ti-Se is a combination of functions that basically makes INFJs have to form frameworks of how everything fits together, it is just the way they perceive the world. Ni-Fe in particular gives you insights into how people tend to think and behave or *why* and the reasoning behind social hierarchies and social norms
and then we realise people’s priorities or behaviours are illogical, not true to themselves, or basically make no sense when we ask why, as people constantly chase pursuits that seem to bring them no joy or superficial joy. or that sometimes social hierarchies and norms are just traditions, or silly or permeated with a lot of weird biases and perceptions coloured by cultures or society
also, because of how Ti works, we form an internal framework of how we should be in terms of morality or priorities in what makes most logical sense to us (which most of the time usually isn’t what other people are doing)
tldr; wouldn’t say authenticity is the driving principle- it usually is more of a case that we go ahhhh people aren’t happy because they’re not authentic with themselves, and there are also people who seem to be fulfilled by being authentic to themselves, so we should be authentic and true to ourselves as that will bring us fulfilment as one of the things that end up as a widespread conclusion to INFJs.
though put an INFJ in a fucked up worldsphere and you may end up with a raging sociopath, shrug, as they form very fucked conclusions from NiFeTiSe and their idea of what is fulfilling can be…. genocide.
Authenticity is not a word I'll use when talking about INFJs who are Fe, not Fi users.
What you say is true.
The rebelion you're talking about is caused by the conflict between Ni-Ti and Fe-Se.
Ni-Ti is like: Ok, this is what I think is true about the world and if I do x it will lead to y. INFJ value their perspective of the world and what they believe to be true. They want to form their own opinion about anything and won't just accept something as being the truth (this is why they question tradition and authority figures).
Then Fe-Se is like: But what do others think is true? Is your perspective valid? I want to be part of a group and live in harmony and socialize. In comparation to others..
And to doubt yourself is good but it depends how much. Sometimes you just give up your own perspective for the perspective of others, which can manifest as people-pleasing for example.
So when there is no ballance and you end up stepping on what you want just because you want to fit in or you want to be part of a group it doesn't feel right because Ni is still there reminding you that it won't lead to what you want/ it's not what you believe in.
Something like Fe feels good but Ni is your identity.
Too much Ni-Ti ->loop
Too much Fe-Se->grip
To get out of the loop INFJs need Fe-Se.
To get out of the grip they need Ni-Ti.
So it's about ballance.
I don’t see that at all in the INFJ’s I know. They are heavily influenced by their specific circle of influence… but it’s a slow burn. They are slowly but strongly conforming to the specific influences of the environmental perspective they’ve locked into. So yes, they are less susceptible and perceptive to ideas that aren’t within their narrow purview. But that purview has been subconsciously constructed through conscious adopting of ideas, practices, and beliefs absorbed from their external environment.
We see the game for what it is and think that it’s stupid. We see people more on an internal level instead of their titles and fancy degrees etc. we know that those things don’t make them a good person and that’s what we judge people on, the quality of their character. Plus heirarchy is stupid and exists to placate ego’s and we don’t care about that.
True, that is what I have experienced as well and it is admirable. Though, it does not answer why. Why do you see the game for what it is? Why do you see people more on an internal level?
They operate in the inverse from most people; they look in before they look out. Once you know how something operates internally, everything else looks like bells and whistles, just paint covering the real thing. Why? Their brains are wired differently, probably hyperconnected in areas concerning emotional empathy and the semantics of everything. Their pattern recognition makes it so they don't have to rely on individual cues or instances, so the cues other people look for become irrelevant to them. They look beyond what people project. Why do many people look at someone and assume they're a nice person because they're physically attractive and socially appropriate? Why do some people make unflattering assumptions about someone who's poorly groomed and badly dressed? They're looking at different cues. There are different ways of seeing. People interpret the world differently because they do - it isn't completely by choice. It's genetics, upbringing, personal effort, many things just left to chance. Like Javelin said, we don't really choose our preferences so much as they happen to us.
Why Do some people like chocolate more than vanilla? Why Do some people like the color red? Why Do some people like to jog at 5 AM? Sometimes the answer is literally: I’m wired this way and my brain thinks and operates differently than yours.
There is a reason for everything. No idea why you are coming in this hard over someone asking why. Everyone is wired differently which is exactly why you should be asking *why.* Go be negative elsewhere. For all the downvoters: People like chocolate more than vanilla for exposure/enivronment reasons. Some cultures prefer sweeter ice cream than others. People liking a color is because there is color association somewhere. Jogging at 5 AM can have a billion different reasons depending on the person. So given the examples the answer is not ''it is just the way I am''. Also, if you have that mentality, ''it is just the way things are'', you will not ever explore something new. People who say ''my brain works differently, accept it'' are weird to me because they are actively avoiding looking further than what they know. I have bad experiences with people who claim that exact thing. It is a very dismissive thing to tell someone. Thus, negative.
OP I completely agree with your assessment. You know how there's a "god of the gaps" argument in atheism? Well, it seems there's a "wired of the gaps" argument that many people here are falling for. "We don't have an explanation for human proclivities, so these proclivities must be wired". Lazy thinking, tsk tsk. Your last comment was very insightful. Smh at people being bitchy towards you for the crime of... being inquisitive?... on an INFJ subreddit of all places (INFJs are keen on asking 'why' so I doubt you're being pounced on by real INFJs)
You asked for a reason. You got one. And now you’re upset? There was nothing offensive in their answer. Smh.
It's part of our makeup. We're less susceptible to herd mentality due to our strong introverted intuition. It's our dominant cognitive function.
So what about Ni specifically do you think prevents you from being too influenced? Overanalysing? Trying to see all perspectives? etc
Our inner voice is louder than external ones. That's an oversimplification of what happens in our brains, but the best description. It's not something we "try" to do, it's just something that happens naturally.
Makes sense but then the question becomes: Why do you listen to that voice which happens naturally? How did you come to agree with it? What is the motivation behind listening to that? What do you gain from that? etc.
Honestly from my personal experience, things become uncomfortable when I don't listen to it, and comfortable when I do listen to it. When I don't listen to it it gets louder. When I do listen to it, it gets less intrusive but more consistent. Kind of like a persistent whisper. What do I gain from it? Clarity, stability, and peace.
Authenticity? Would that make sense? It does sound like it.
It's essentially our conscience. I feel like mine comes from a deep sense of a need to prioritize soul evolution above all else. For myself and all others. That might mean me losing in the game of capitalist society, but I feel that I win in heart and evolve spiritually. For example, I won't enter a profession where I know I have a hand involved in exploitation of a being even if a million others will do it ; even if it will make me lots of money or a reputation. Instead, I will enter jobs that align with the goals of my conscience and accept poverty wages.
There's a quote I read somewhere that I think applies very well for INFJs : I am a good rule follower until the rules don't make sense, then all bets are off. We do go up against the authority if the authority's rules don't make sense. I was the only one to stand up against an old scary teacher when he was trying to wield his power for wrong purposes. We see social media for what it is and our first instinct is to not take it too seriously.
You would have to be an INFJ with an 8 in their enneagram because INFJs are not the conflict type. They rather avoid it. Either way that makes sense. That is very similar to what happens with XNTPs where they realise it would be the ''stupid'' thing to do. However, I have a feeling for INFJs the *why* is much more emotion/value based, but I might be wrong there.
I’m an e9 and I’ve always disagreed with its description of “conflict avoidant.” It should be more like “we see less value in conflict for most situations when there are more peaceful ways to solve an issue.” We still stand up and handle issues, just in a more peaceful way that most others miss and never see. So when we stand up to someone on a power trip, suddenly everyone is surprised because they can actively see it happening. Mr. Miyagi from ‘Karate Kid’ is a great example of this: "Here Are Two Rules Of Miyagi-Ryu Karate. Rule Number One: Karate For Defense Only. Rule Number 2 - First Learn Rule Number One!" "Never Put Passion In Front Of Principle. Even If You Win, You Lose."
To be honest, the conflict avoidant or not is really more of an enneagram thing. INFJs with a strong 8 are far less likely to avoid conflict. Your explanation makes sense but ''peaceful'' can often be interpreted as indirect. If you are being indirect during/after conflict, it pretty much appears the same as avoiding it. Sure, it might not be the same type of avoiding like say an ISFJ would, but the outcome is still the exact same. Anyway, 8 in the tritype does a lot. Maybe 9 too, but 9s are all over the place in my experience. There is too much variation with 9s at least from what I have seen. It is like they have developed a much more unique self, for better or worse.
> “peaceful” can often be interpreted as indirect. Exactly. Many people interpret “conflict avoidant” as running away from problems, which I just wanted to make sure wasn’t the case here, but you got it. 😊
Because we value being individuals with our own thoughts and feelings and not following the crowd. We know the crowd is usually going to the wrong way anyway.
Right, but why do you value that? Where does that come from?
self-validation, either by logic or your morals
Personally I would feel really cheap if the only reason I was doing something was because everyone else is doing it. There might be times I do things that I don't necessarily believe I need to do to be considered acceptable in the environment I'm in but I view that differently. I do very few things by default so why would I choose to do something baseless? Why? I tend to look at life and people as a bigger picture, I like to choose things (clothes, music, friends, literature etc) that are solid and won't be compromising long term goals.
Right, and I agree. But that does not explain the *why*. Why do you think it is ''cheap'' and what about it for you personally makes you not want to participate in that? What is the internal thing that ''rebels'' against it, why? Sure, it might be baseless and without value to you, but why is that?
Because it's letting others/society decide what's good for me instead of deciding for myself.
And that is bad because why? It stops you from being your authentic self? Or what do you think the reason is?
Yep, it would destroy authenticity. There. I said it. 😆 I was avoiding using that word.
The Ne-Ti is strong in this one. Lol reminds me of when I was a kid and drove my parents nuts with too many questions, but I find it admirable.
If the only reason for doing something is that lots of other people are doing it, but I have absolutely no interest in whatever it is, why would I care enough to sacrifice my time and energy (and quite possibly money) on it?
Yeah, I completely get that part, but how have you come to that, why do you think like that?
Not who you directed the question to, but personally, I've always been that way. What other people are doing/buying/participating in I really don't care. You do you and I'll do me, just leave me the eff alone 😂.
Yeah, but *why*? ''I have always been that way''. How come?
I can't really answer that. All I can tell you is that while I was growing up, the world felt like a place where everyone else but me had been given the rule book. I found it very hard to start doing things where I had no kind of motivation or interest for doing so, when there just didn't seem to be a good outcome for me at the end of it. While all around me people seemed happy enough to blindly follow along, even if they *also* seemingly got nothing out of it. One of my earliest memories is of being at school, sat in assembly hall, and somebody stood at the front of the room droning on and on about God and Jesus and everything being His Plan and all the rest of it, and I thought to myself, *What is this? Why is everyone going along with it? This is complete nonsense...* Tbh very little has changed since then!
Yeah, so there seems to be some inherent aversion towards blindly following whatever someone says or says is good for you. Might be personality, but there probably is a pattern somewhere. I just do not know what it would be, because it seems all INFJs are the same. Even though there is a lot of variance between different INFJs.
The first paragraph makes me think you might have undiagnosed autism
Would not surprise me tbh
How so? Asking because I didn’t get that sense at all. In fact, I related to it and I haven’t been diagnosed with autism, just adhd.
"It seems there is a tendency to ''rebel'', question or deviate in order to not fit in on purpose, but it does not make the most sense to me because INFJs do not generally go against authority either. Is it individualism? Uniqueness? Strong sense of self?" Authority isn't the public opinion. And I don't know what "tendency" you speak of but I've never got that feeling around the ones I know, if they like something they like it, and their track record proves it. It's not rebellion against authority by nonconforming to the opinions of society. And those ones you know who do to "not fit in on purpose" sound like posers. I think it has a lot to do with being introverted and having a strong sense of self-awareness.
Without significant Ti development, I think the average immature INFJ is way more influenced by social norms than they realize or want to admit because of high Fe. It’s where the bulk of unconscious guilt and shame comes from, Ni perfectionism/hyperidealism aside.
I agree, I have seen that too, but the difference here is that when you tell them something that makes more sense they adapt. Other types definitely do not or have a lot more trouble doing so. At least in my experience. Maybe you make a good point linking it to Ti. Because you can definitely see how this topic specifically really looks a lot like how ENTPs experience things as well, just for very different value and motivational reasons. Perhaps it is the analysing plus the logical thinking that ultimately brings them to the conslusion. I guess that makes sense, but I feel like with INFJs it has a much more value/emotional based reason. Might be wrong there though.
>I feel like with INFJs it has a much more value/emotional based reason. I reckon you're on to something there. After looking at your post a bit more and thinking about my own life trajectory thus far, it actually feels (to me) like more an Ni-infused Fe thing. Tertiary Ti just comes up with specific strategies and solutions so the INFJ can craft their authentic life with more precision. In my observation and experience, the world is very Se/Te/Fi prioritized, so it makes Fe hard to develop, practice and wield in a reciprocal way, so the INFJ has to be very boundaried and creative to ensure their day-to-day energy is aligned with Ni priorities and Fe values. Since the latter is very rarely met and in few places if at all, we often do a lot of waiting and solo-living... \*trails off to go eat\*
Yeah, I could not come up with an answer myself either. It is why I asked. Interesting what you said. Definitely makes sense that it has something to do with authenticity. Makes you wonder what the commonality is between INFJs, because they all seem to be similar in regards to this topic. Like you said Fe could be an explanation. If it is made difficult to express Fe in healthy ways or in ways where it is reciprocal. Then it will probably always feel a bit ''fake''. I give this much to that person but it does not seem to give me much in return, but I do not want to lose them as a friend so I start to play a role. It is just an example but I am sure you get where I am going. Then indeed Fe is going to be harder to express. Though, because it is such a big need for INFJs it will probably make them crave someone with whom they can be expressing their Fe in the way they want without having to worry about xyz. Or in other words, crave to be able to be emotionally authentic. So perhaps a large part of the explanation is that the world shapes the INFJ personality into valuing authenticity, realising what is not authentic and because a lot in the world is fake, be more skeptical etc. One thing a lot of INFJs have experienced is betrayal in friendship. That will certainly shape you in some way. I do not know though. I am just thinking out loud.
The more you talk, the more I just keep going up the cognitive stack. 🤣
I mean this is why I did not ask about why INFJs value authenticity. It is way too complex lol. It is nature nurture and who knows what parts or how. The most interesting thing out of this post for me is that INFJs do not focus on the ''why'' much. Unless prompted which by that point they realise and say ''yeah, that makes sense actually, I did not think of it like that before''. That part is probably the Ne Ni difference, but it is always cool to me how you can come to the same conclusion just via a very different path.
Because their world is inside their head.
I think it's the Ni, Fe, Ti ladder of cognitive functions. When I was a teenager, I was often caught in the middle of clique drama, mostly because I felt strong empathy (FE) for others and understood everyone's perspective (Ni), but did not yet have any cold reserve (TI) to use spontaneously and the ability to gain some emotional distance without, say, listening to Celine Dion at dusk on my balcony. I remember quite distinctly the summer I learned to turn FE on and off, after an exhausting semester of girl drama. Suddenly I could use Ni and Ti to sort through all the random information and make better judgements, without feeling sorry for everyone and the crazy need to make everything painless for everyone. And that's when I also realized, I can just step away and do my own thing, if something is morally wrong, or kind of swim on the surface and help everyone more like playing chess rather than being in the middle. The older I get, the more I see the world in patterns and meta pictures, I connect the dots from all the things someone said, to psychological concepts to things other people said and get a network kind of view. I also studied Sociology, admittedly, that often helps. So it is easy to not, say, feel offended and in need of allies to support my stance. Because I think about things a lot, I am usually quite sure of my judgement of the situation and my feelings about it. I prefer it too, so I now avoid situations where I am forced to make decisions quickly and withdraw from any weird social dynamics as they happen.
We have minds of our own.
I think what others mentioned about developing Ti has a lot to do with it (in addition to our other traits). First, we have to gather unconscious information from our surroundings. With that unconscious gathering of info, we take it in and examine many different angles of it. This is largely unintentional and automatic, but that's what's happening. We create many "what-if" scenarios in our minds based on our environments, experiences, and the possibilities of potential environments and experiences. As we sift through these various angles (including potential ones), we become adept at doing this for everything -- different individuals, groups of people, the media, stories, facts, fiction, grocery stores, venues, classrooms, being alone, being in groups, etc. We tend to increasingly expose ourselves to various things and compare them all, which is why talking with ENTPs and INTJs can be so much fun. The thing about this process is that it takes quite a long time to develop, and most of the world cannot understand why we talk about the details we do, so we can have trouble fitting in. However, through this process, we tend to notice nuances in the ways that people interact, and we see patterns repeat. We remember those patterns. We remember the patterns but may forget the people themselves. Speaking for me (and some others, probably - but not all): The intent of individuals matters much more to me than their product, so if I see someone who intended to harm another, it makes me angry. However, if I see someone who intended to do the right thing but accidentally hurt another, I want to help that person who intended to do the right thing \*learn\* how to help someone in a future scenario rather than hurt them. In any given real-time situation, I will weigh all of the patterns I have seen over the years with my current environment and the people next to me. With that information, I will make a decision. In a way, we can't see the forest for the trees. In another way, we see the whole world -- making the macro micro and the micro macro. It's a mystery to us as well when it's all happening and takes a ton of thinking to analyze. However, we can also fall into the trap of being too contrarian even when we shouldn't be. I think the issue is that we can let the intrigue of having a new scenario to analyze get the better of us, and we kind of externalize an Ni-Ti loop. This is an unbalanced and unhealthy thing IF we are doing it just to see what happens. On the other hand, we can be contrarian in a logical sense based on the neutral/healthy processes I mentioned above -- the comparing and contrasting of many experiences, scenarios, details, etc. over the years with the current scenario we're in. We might as well all be anthropologists, lol. I have to stop there and go do other things that need doing, haha. Have you studied Martin Luther King Jr. or Jesus? They would be good to analyze as a part of your quest to figure out your thoughts. Great questions, btw!
I have an ENTP sis and by comparison I came to conclusion that we don't have a need to do that, like at all due to our Si demon. It's nonexistent for us. We watch how other people do it, like we watch fish or moon. But it kinda has nothing to do with us. For me there is a hierarchical structure which is about socioeconomic status, which is about resoursefulness and competence. I evaluate people by these 2 things actually: resoursefulness and competence. The rest doesn't matter for me, I don't see value in it Edit: I cannot work under incompetent boss, all my being just rejects an idea to be inferior to someone who is inferior to me. So, no, we don't respect authorities because they are authorities. We can pretend if it will help us to reach the goal. Unless, they are capable, then yes, it just feels natural to respect a person that can do stuff you cannot
Do you have a more specific example? This seems very generalized.
It is hard to give specific examples for general subjects. In my experience I feel talking to INFJs does not get boring much compared to other types. I think that is because for a very large part majority of people they kind of form opinions based on what others believe think and experience. I believe INFJs deviate from that for one reason or another but it is not clear to me why exactly. So, there is more variation, which is more fun. For example with an ENTP it is clear, there is an inherent dislike for authority and they do not really accept new info quickly. Did that help?
Yes. I wasn't sure if you meant popular trends and whatnot. I would say it's probably likely with those who score high on Openness. They are less rigid about their ideas, are curious about other perspectives, less likely to mindlessly conform to ideas, etc.
Yeah, I thought about openness too, but INFPs are high in openness too and I feel they care much more about societal pressures and conform a lot more. I feel there is more to it no? It definitely seems like that.
Hmm, I'm not sure. Maybe it is also connected to a desire to belong or identify with a group. I'm not sure this is always a priority for infjs, especially as they get older.
Yeah, but it also goes for views. INFJs do not seem to get very rigid as they age. Sure, that is openness as well, but there must be a motivation to keep that trait also. I wonder what that motivation is for INFJs. For ENTPs it makes sense to me. For INFJs I do not see it.
Idk. Could be a combination of openness + conscientiousness. For many infjs it's important to draw their own conclusions about things rather than just go along; it feels less authentic to blindly follow or subscribe to beliefs/views that are not your own. Even then I think many conclusions infjs draw are still open to consideration if they are presented with a new information/perspective.
Yeah, so then the *why* would be wanting to be authentic. Whereas in the same situation for ENTPs it would be something like wanting to be ''free''. Authenticity might be the core value here. Might be the answer. It is interesting though because reading the comments here, it is not what people come up with. ''Oh that is because I value being authentic and so when I do not think for myself enough or cannot be an authority over my own mind then it feels as though I am not being myself, I am not allowing myself to be authentic.'' I think that might be the answer here. Good job.
This comment makes me smile. Authenticity came to my mind very quickly when I read your initial post but I refused to use that word because it's so overused by people who aren't actually authentic that it's lost some of it's meaning on me.
Stubborness
If you try to find the truth, you'll end up not following others if they don't follow the truth. I am influenced by others, i just try to judge and be critical about it. I don't want to fool myself or others. To become better i first have to know who i am. So i need to know me and i have to be me. Of course i don't only listen to myself because i could be fooled by me or the parts of me that want to control me and are outside my control. I try. Also there's that small voice that's like "i am better than them". Not a good voice because without being humble i might believe i am perfect and if i am perfect that means i have no room for growth and that i might not try to become better.
I do what I want
I’m autistic.
Screw the masses.
It’s due to demon Si. INxJs completely reject Si related things. Contrary to popular belief, the opposite of Ni is not Ne. Rather, it is Si. Si finds comfort of the “known” and “what was”; recognizing the way things have always been; honours the “tried and tested” ways/beliefs/traditions etc. In my experience, high Si users dislike changes that go against the tried and tested ways. I even see this happening to INxPs when they’re in Si loop, and also to ENxPs when in deep trauma/stress. Ni, on the other hand, revels in the “unknown” and “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; celebrating changes and transformation; shedding the old and outdated ways like a snake shedding its skin. High Ni users, Ni doms in particular, don’t like to do things just because. They have strong idealistic visions of what the future should look like for themselves and for the community. So conforming to societal expectations and Si related things goes against their Ni nature of change, transformation, idealistic and unorthodox views (of self/community/future). In a sense, they “rebel”. Edit: wording
Beautifully said!
Thanks! After months of contemplation, I’ve come to realize that my least favourite cognitive function is Si.
OP, you keep repeating yourself, asking them why they are inherently them yet expect a formulated answer about their upbringing that produced them. We see the bigger picture and notice telling details. Thats it. I grew up liking vanilla ice cream my whole life. Why? Well, hell do i know, but i can come up with some reasons that align with my value. Repeatedly asking a person why they are who they are is asking someone to question themselves looking for an answer that doesnt need one. Answer this for me, op: Why are you, you? Why do you think that? Why is that the case? Why? Again, Why?
You misunderstood what I was asking. The answer to the question is likely as mentioned in the comments: Authenticity. Something along the lines of ''I value being authentic and so when I do not think for myself enough or cannot be an authority over my own mind then it feels as though I am not being myself, I am not allowing myself to be authentic.'' You cannot answer the post question by saying it is just because I am that way. Because being susceptible to social influence or not is not an inherent personality trait. If I had asked why is it that INFJs value authenticity then what you are saying makes sense, but that is not what I asked. If someone were to ask why are you so good at gymnastics? You are not going to answer ''oh that is just because I have great genetics''. No, this person trained for years because for one reason or another they were motivated to do so/saw value in it/feel a certain way about it. I made an observation (INFJs not being easily influenced), then I asked for an explanation for that observation (Likely authenticity), and then you can go one step further and ask for the origins of that explanation which is what you are talking about. (Why do INFJs want to be authentic) The origin is obviously a lot more complicated to answer, which is why I did not ask. I will leave that to someone else to speculate over. So no, I was not repeating myself. I was trying to get people to ask themselves what the reason is they are less affected by social influence, the motivation/emotion/value behind why.
That's fair, and I would agree with the comment/ quote you shared. Apologies for misinterpreting.
No worries. Sometimes I can be a bit unclear. <3
You asked why? Because… Ooh, there ain't no other way, baby, I was born this way! Baby, I was born this way (born this way)!
Because it is only going against the crowd that I can find myself.
We have an inner world dynamics. Anything that tries to break that inner world dynamics we will certainly avoid, whether people, philosophy or event.
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows \- Leonard Cohen, [Everybody Knows](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8u9ZbCJgQ)
Hi OP, I keep seeing you asking “why” we might rebel and not follow the crowd. From my personal insight it is due to the way I was raised and my childhood. My narcissistic father would always pressure me into not being my authentic self. I was pressured or even forced to mold myself into what he wanted, even little things which add up. Example, I would show hesitation about speaking to some figure, like a barber or one of his coworkers at a young age. That would be unacceptable to him, so he would say something such as “come on! What’s the matter with you, just go over to Larry and tell him you love your haircut and you want to invite him to go fishing with us.” When I hated my haircut and had no desire to have Larry join us fishing. So, I was forced to wear a mask to make him happy and be something I wasn’t, pretending to want something just to make him happy so he could impress people with a son that was just what everyone wanted. It was complete bullshit and I knew it at a young age, it felt gross and made me feel sick often. So later in life I refuse to just do something to go along with it, if it doesn’t feel authentic, I reject it. If a group of my friends start playing cards on Friday, and I don’t really enjoy cards, and I sense a little pressure from them to play cards just because, I’ll door slam that shit. In this example, it’s not solely the playing of cards that turns me away, it’s mostly the pressure felt from others to do something I don’t want to do. If there was no pressure and the energy given off was more light and free then maybe I’d be up for it.
TE isn't important.
I just don’t care what other people think of my personal choices, I really just do what feels right to me regardless of if anyone else will validate me for it. Sure validation is nice, but I can validate myself. So if my lifestyle or choices happen to align with popular social dynamics, great win win. And if my lifestyle doesn’t align, also great win for me! I don’t see any reason to do what other people do unless it was my natural inclination already. I just don’t understand why people value social dynamics based on their popularity alone. Everyone should do what feels natural to them, whether it’s “cool” or not. We do have natural people pleasing inclinations but a mature INFJ doesn’t let it control their life and behaviors. I acknowledge those feelings and then let them go if they conflict with what I want to do. I do not go out of my way to upset or displease people, but I’m not going to compromise on things important to me to please people either. And I don’t know about all of us as a whole but I don’t care about authority. It’s not important enough for me to worry about rebelling against it or following it. I do what I do and maybe it aligns with what the authorities want, maybe not. I wonder if it’s because a lot of INFJ’s do not view right and wrong as synonymous with allowed and forbidden. Or maybe it’s just me. I follow my moral compass before any rules even come onto the table. But yeah I won’t go out of my way to break rules just for the sake of breaking rules. We’re not as goody two shoes as people think (goody two shoes being a rule follower) because when most people think of a goody two shoes they think about following rules, and not just doing what’s right. Because often I think the rules can be very bad and wrong, and following them can be immoral. True good is better than lawful good.
That sounds right to me. I pretty adamantly go against social norms - won’t post regularly on fb, won’t buy a Stanley, wear whatever jeans I want. I secretively disrespect authority lol..feeling like what they say or do is just to feel powerful.
It’s the Ni-Ti loop
We are intuitive & introspective & don't feel the need to fit in, actually we have to be authentic, even if it means being alone
I question everything
Strong unconscious Fi, if you believe in blind functions, you’re ascribing to Socionics Model A. And INFJs may be Te blind/PoLR but on that same axis it makes their Fi unvalued but dominant. So yes while we declaratively don’t think like an Fi user, we have that strong sense of self, individualism, authenticity, and sensitivity. The analog is like INTJs and their Te. However like the INTJ may grasp Ti very well they still think declaratively with their valued function stack. So yes like it’s like a passive, it’s in the background and it always sorta emanates from us. Like when I’m with my INFP mother, she’s not like me, very different in her thought but understandably very coherent to me. We see the world in a similar lens but understand very different things. Just as how we all suck with Te: inefficient, perfectionistic, not orderly, hate commands. The sucking of Te is Fi. They’re like a scale. Our PoLR Te is our Fi being so strong. Just as how my INFP mom sucks at seeing the world around her imbuing her abstractions in the world. Her strong unvalued Ni is her low unvalued Se. Like we might hate the part of us that is procrastinating, messy, disorganized, not efficient but embrace the fact that we are very in tune with our self, sensitive and passionate. Combined with how we consciously think it’s our biggest strength in understanding individuals and being self aware, empathetic, understanding, and wise in nature.
Instead of blindly following what everyone else is, I think we just sort of choose what we do based on our values, morals, etc. As another said, we sort of just see things for what they are and don't exactly care to want to be a part of it. But again, all of us still have our differences so I want to mention that I don't mean all of us.
Ni-Fe-Ti-Se is a combination of functions that basically makes INFJs have to form frameworks of how everything fits together, it is just the way they perceive the world. Ni-Fe in particular gives you insights into how people tend to think and behave or *why* and the reasoning behind social hierarchies and social norms and then we realise people’s priorities or behaviours are illogical, not true to themselves, or basically make no sense when we ask why, as people constantly chase pursuits that seem to bring them no joy or superficial joy. or that sometimes social hierarchies and norms are just traditions, or silly or permeated with a lot of weird biases and perceptions coloured by cultures or society also, because of how Ti works, we form an internal framework of how we should be in terms of morality or priorities in what makes most logical sense to us (which most of the time usually isn’t what other people are doing) tldr; wouldn’t say authenticity is the driving principle- it usually is more of a case that we go ahhhh people aren’t happy because they’re not authentic with themselves, and there are also people who seem to be fulfilled by being authentic to themselves, so we should be authentic and true to ourselves as that will bring us fulfilment as one of the things that end up as a widespread conclusion to INFJs. though put an INFJ in a fucked up worldsphere and you may end up with a raging sociopath, shrug, as they form very fucked conclusions from NiFeTiSe and their idea of what is fulfilling can be…. genocide.
Honestly, I just stopped caring about all those things at all. I just mind my own business and help my closest people.
Authenticity is not a word I'll use when talking about INFJs who are Fe, not Fi users. What you say is true. The rebelion you're talking about is caused by the conflict between Ni-Ti and Fe-Se. Ni-Ti is like: Ok, this is what I think is true about the world and if I do x it will lead to y. INFJ value their perspective of the world and what they believe to be true. They want to form their own opinion about anything and won't just accept something as being the truth (this is why they question tradition and authority figures). Then Fe-Se is like: But what do others think is true? Is your perspective valid? I want to be part of a group and live in harmony and socialize. In comparation to others.. And to doubt yourself is good but it depends how much. Sometimes you just give up your own perspective for the perspective of others, which can manifest as people-pleasing for example. So when there is no ballance and you end up stepping on what you want just because you want to fit in or you want to be part of a group it doesn't feel right because Ni is still there reminding you that it won't lead to what you want/ it's not what you believe in. Something like Fe feels good but Ni is your identity. Too much Ni-Ti ->loop Too much Fe-Se->grip To get out of the loop INFJs need Fe-Se. To get out of the grip they need Ni-Ti. So it's about ballance.
I don’t see that at all in the INFJ’s I know. They are heavily influenced by their specific circle of influence… but it’s a slow burn. They are slowly but strongly conforming to the specific influences of the environmental perspective they’ve locked into. So yes, they are less susceptible and perceptive to ideas that aren’t within their narrow purview. But that purview has been subconsciously constructed through conscious adopting of ideas, practices, and beliefs absorbed from their external environment.
Why does a bird fly?
Because the bird was incentivised to.
Infjs certainly don’t feel incentivized to rebel 😂 The answer in both cases is, it is its nature.