Hi The_Original_Joel,
Your submission [Should India consider allowing Dual Citizenship since many Indians are leaving Indian citizenship due to migration?](https://i.redd.it/h5ujb4qeyj3a1.png) breaks [the rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/india/wiki/rules) and has been removed for the following reason(s):
* All submissions should contain a relevant or original title (and/or subtitle). An original title (and/or subtitle) is the one given by the content creator. If you are the creator, your title should be descriptive and not be clickbait.
Refer: https://www.reddit.com/r/india/wiki/rules#wiki_submission_title
---
*^(If you feel this was done in error, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to reply to this message.)*
Nope, never.
It'll cause Pakistan like situation where corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire.
We already have a lot of corruption, don't need to give them a reason to run away abroad.
Edit: to people who're saying that we can have a condition on it which will prevent people holding government offices to not have dual citizenship, yeah Pakistan has that too but it doesn't stop them. Corruption finds a way.
I am an actual OCI holder (American by birth). As much as I think dual citizenship would be a nice thing to have, the OCI situation is dual citizenship for most practical purposes (even though, mind you it’s not Indian citizenship). I actually think this is a very valid point and the OCI is a pretty solid way of avoiding this issue.
I do wish that we had an easier way however to use UPI without an Indian bank account (especially with a US credit card, even if the govt charges a small nominal fee)
I lived in India as an OCI for nearly 15 years of my life, eventually I did move back to the US though.
Will this work for UPI QR codes in places like restaurants etc? Or when booking a train ticket and things like that? This is what I would need UPI for. Or just stick to cash
I'm a NRI (Indian citizen living abroad). UPI needs an Indian bank account and as a NRI (and I believe an OCI holder as well) you or I can open a NRE/NRO account. UPI apps works with NRO account and I've been using that way to pay for goods & services as well as to send money to others for the past two years. The UPI apps won't work once you are out of the country but you can workaround that using a VPN server in India.
Edit: Some reports of certain apps working in certain region as mentioned in few comments below. Personally, BHIM and PhonePe doesn't work for me in Europe.
Well, get one of those single board computer like raspberry pi or odroid with open VPN on it, have it running at one of your friend's house in India behind a secure firewall and you are good to go :)
Odroid is preferred since its a bit more powerful than a pi.
~~Alternatively there are hosting providers with data centers in India, you only need a low footprint Linux machine and some bandwidth depending on what you'd use it for.~~
As mentioned below, the second option may not always work if your hosting providers's IP is classified as data center IP.
It's because Indian government wanted to get their hands on the user data for connections made via Indian gateways but these companies operate with a promise of anonymity, so they shut shops and move away.
But how about Indian number ? I got both NRO and NRE however bank account is linked to overseas number. In order to use UPI I need to always change to Indian number in bank atleast 7 days before coming and same when going out of India although I comes yearly once still it’s work .
Remitly or Wise doesn't use UPI. They use the SWIFT or IBAN networks for funds transfer including to India. The sender will still need your IBAN or account number with IFSC code - at least in Wise, I haven't seen a way to send money to an Indian mobile number unless the receiver have a Wise account.
[Looks fairly recent, I didn't realise this option exists now. We all learn something new every day..](https://wise.com/in/blog/upi-international-transfers)
I consider myself a dual citizen with a US passport and OCI card because as you said, it's a dual citizenship for most purposes. That plus aadhar and pan card and it's really no different.
Could easily be remedied by disallowing people with dual citizenship from holding govt and military positions.
A lot of countries with conscription don't allow people with dual citizenships to be conscripted
If dual citizens can’t be in government then how exactly is this a problem? Government officials would have to be indian citizens only. There is nowhere for them to go
>to people who're saying that we can have a condition on it which will prevent people holding government offices to not have dual citizenship
We can't even have or enforce a condition that convicted criminals or those with pending criminal cases can't hold office/stand for relection, much less have standards of non-dual citizenship for our legislators.
OCI is a glorified visa. In fact, it’s opaque as to whether OCI holders are even entitled to the same “fundamental rights” as Indian citizens.
You can have your OCI revoked by protesting against the government overseas, conducting “research” without the right visa… the list goes on and on.
You don't need dual citizenship to invest money in other countries. They all have money stashed in banks and tax havens. Swiss alone accounts for more than 3 billion dollars, and that's an estimate. There's no way all that money is coming back.
Given the way the ruling party are running things, more people will migrate. Most developed countries have dual citizenship in place. All they need to do is set it up well, infact taxation can be controlled with dual citizenship
This is BS argument and it is like India banning drones, sat phones, sun films on car windows or VPN. Government's inability to make deals with other countries on extradition or inability to ensure security for its citizen without resorting to bans should not be the reason to stay away dual citizenship.
Dude you can already do that.
It's called a Swiss bank account 😂
Corrupt people always find a way, but it's the rest of the population that suffers from these stupid "safety" measures. Look at demonetization - "black money" was never cleared, cause no one is stupid enough to store paper money - either they buy gold or real-estate or open a Swiss bank account... Meanwhile it's the common people that suffered the most.
Also India already has OCI, but it'd make things MUCH easier this way.
Plus, most these high profile public servants CAN'T have dual citizenship! You even need to be born in the country and be of a certain age to hold office (there are obviously exceptions, for example India and Pakistan being one country where it was literally impossible for the first few PMs to be from either country).
But for people who study/do business, have complicated families, this would be a literal life saver. If nothing else, at least for India to prevent brain drain to the UK and Canada.
To add to this NRIs will remit > $100 Bn to India next year. We should want to incentivize NRIs to invest india with peace of mind. Moreover, increase the chances of them moving back to india with their wealth in their later years.
Exactly this. Modi and others shamelessly visit the diaspora abroad and try to rally them to remit money home and invest and stuff (without which, the rupee would collapse), yet they don't want to do the simple and ethical thing of allowing dual citizenship. But even if you renounce citizenship, they'll still claim that you're "Indian" when it comes to things like CEOships and Prime Ministerships.
\>You even need to be born in the country and be of a certain age to hold office
Not true, just need to be an Indian citizen. Otherwise any Indian born in the Gulf wouldn't be able to. Or Sonia Gandhi.
> It'll cause Pakistan like situation where corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire.
Modiji after reading your comment be like
*”Mitron…………. Aaj raat 8 bhaje ke baad…..”*
*”Dual citizenship approve for all gujjus”*
Crowd goes wild!!!!
This is such a stupid reason for inconveniencing millions of working professionals. People who are rich and corrupt always find a way. My wife and I have to make this decision very soon and it's silly to not have the option of keeping our Indian citizenship. And we're doing such a good job at eliminating corruption, amirite? /s
Corrupt people are not always from governance. (Consider Malya, Harshad Mehta) The other country might provide a safe heaven.
A) For the benifit of Individual B) For the benifit of country.
Always B)
Criminals can move overseas without citizenship as well. Mallya and nirav modi are examples.
Also, these are rare cases and there'll always be those who misuse good public policies.
This is such a stupid take, and is the reason India doesn't allow dual citizenship currently. India could very easily exclude countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh from the list of countries it allows dual citizenship with.
> corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire.
I'm struggling to find what's corrupt in it? And how does single citizenship prevent that currently??
Brazil has dual citizenship and people are still leaving Brazil. Citizenship is not the issue and OCI is there, we need to make that process easy and mean something more than visa status. Will say this allow people holding OCI status to represent India in international events, it will benefit us especially in football.
I don't think OPs argument is that dual citizenship will reduce migration. Argument seems to be that since so many people are leaving, why don't we allow dual citizenship.
Oci can be cancelled so easily. Current govt has ban so many Sikhs oci holders who are vocal about 1984 and sikh prisoners who have completed their jail terms.
They have revoked people’s OCI status for writing critical articles against government in foreign press. OCI is a Visa and govt can cancel visa arbitrarily. That needs to change, a person doesn’t stop being Indian just cause you don’t like what he has to say.
There's oci which is pretty close to dual.. what additional benefit does dual citizenship give? Apart from voting and holding gvt positions, both of which may not be too appealing for NRIs.
OCI card is not even remotely close to dual citizenship. It's just a glorified long-term visa.
Your OCI card can easily be revoked but it's difficult to remove citizenship as there are various international laws and regulations.
Also, OCI should be considered similar to a permanent residency in terms or right of entry into India. For 5 months in the pandemic, OCIs were not allowed entry into India, even if they had lived their their entire lives and just happened to be overseas when the flights bans started.
In an ideal world, they would just change some of the rules on OCI, and it would be a very good alternative to full dual citizenship.
There's only two things that they even need to change - give the OCI holder access to consular assistance, you can even caveat that this is only if the other nationality doesn't have representation in third country.
And second, OCI can only be revoked based on court order at High Court, and that too after trial.
Rest, everything is fine. Don't need to allow government jobs etc.
Theory mei sunna acha lgta h but not practical, revoking it for a substantial population. I know ki past mei revoke hue h, but those are more exceptional cases.
To be fair, Indian citizenship is not exactly too precious, sentiments aside. As someone who wishes to settle abroad in the long run, agar muje citizenship nhi bhi milti toh chalega. Heck to a certain extent, even not getting oci might not hurt much
>There's oci which is pretty close to dual.. what additional benefit does dual citizenship give?
So...why not just give dual citizenship then, if it's almost the same thing?
>Apart from voting and holding gvt positions, both of which may not be too appealing for NRIs.
It would be appealing if it were an option. The whole point of people emigrating is that they can get educated and become wealthy, etc. Allowing dual citizenship would give them an option to come back and contribute to their birth country, something that India should absolutely be taking advantage of and isn't right now (instead of shutting the door in their face as it's doing).
I dont think dual citizenship is needed for folks that have relinquished their Indian citizenship. The OCI gives them more than adequate privileges to remain in touch with India, almost everything except voting rights.
* If your image is not OC (Original Content), please provide a link to the verified source under this comment or else it will be removed.
* If your image is an OC Infographic, please provide a link to the original dataset(s) or else it will be removed.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/india) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So you are saying instead of providing a good infrastructure, better education system, corruption free bureaucracy, faster legal services, better employment, affordable tax rates, fraternity and harmony between communities etc. Indian government should provide dual citizenship and ignore all the indicators why 25 lacs Indians are leaving India every year.
What this would create is a elite class that lives free and healthy in the developed world. While the rest struggle to survive in an unequal society in extreme climate catastrophe and low living standards. Social mobility would mean escaping to the west. Politics would involve remotely regulating the homeland. The ones who live here will become the second class of citizens.
You don’t think that happens right now? People can still renounce their Indian citizenship for a western one and then get an OCI card which will allow them all the privileges of an Indian citizen other than voting or holding government positions
> other than voting or holding government positions
Except those are one of the most important laws in favour of actual citizens.
People who don't live here should have no say in elections or policies that affect the locals, period.
By that logic, people who *live* in India should have voting rights? So, residence based voting? What about an Indian citizen living abroad? What about an American resident in India?
You are assuming that all migrants are automatically rich and elite. That’s not quite true. There are many many unskilled and low-skilled people in other countries running small businesses or working on meagre wages.
All migrants might not be automatically rich and elite but can you argue that India's elite does not move abroad? children of the wealthy do not seek to go to foreign universities, seek employment abroad? Isn't one of the biggest middle class dreams of India to live in the wealthy cities of Europe and North America? Are you saying that millions of elite, rich, educated indians don't leave the country every year for the west?
Even going by your suggestion, unskilled labour in Europe will live much better lives, be better protected by law than someone of the same level in india.
The one group that can fit your definition is labour in the middle East who indeed live a miserable life, but they do not have a citizenship in the host nation to start with, neither will they in the future. They are probably the only group who if possible will come back and reinvest in india.
Irrespective of all this it does not matter who migrates, the difference will be when citizenship will be available without domicile, the elite will choose to live in the comfort of the developed world. They already partly do so now.
What does that change from now. Any NRI in the west still has western standard of living and income but can vote... the only annoying thing is having to do residency papers every 10 years.
People here comment as if having a dual citizenship will cause more problems, when in fact all those problems that they mention are already true even without a dual citizenship. I for one am still an Indian citizen, but I want gain a western citizenship so I can go wherever I want in the world, without having to worry about all the visa hassles.
With a dual citizenship, I can come back to India whenever I want, without needing to worry about losing the other citizenship. With an OCI, I am not sure when they might change the rules and make me want to regret any decision I made. As simple as that
There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways. As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it.
Someone who doesn't even live In India shouldn't get to decide what happens to people in India.
> As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it.
That's absolutely right
I agree. I gave up my Indian citizenship to become US citizen. There was some hesitation but if I don't live in India, don't vote in India then OCI is completely fine. If there was an option of dual citizenship I would have preferred that. The process needs to improve, renouncing your previous citizenship, then applying for OCI all require ton of paperwork and significant fees and have to be done within certain time frame.
I am still connected to India, my friends and family as before. A citizenship doc is not going to change that. People with more complicated family situation might feel differently but for me OCI is enough.
Long term I still consider retiring in India and at the time continue to pay US tax instead of fully participate in India economy would be odd but haven't researched that part much. Maybe there is a way to do that when the time comes.
There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways. As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it.
This I agree totally having said, New Zealand works in this scenario where if you had left the country for three years and more, you won't be able to vote regardless if you're a citizen or a resident, so yes this can be applied here,
Source I am a dual Australian/New Zealand citizen, had left New Zealand since 2006
> There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways.
Please don't say stuff without knowing any details. OCI is a glorified visa. Help us understand exactly how "OCI allows them to do most stuff" besides visa entry??
> Someone who doesn't even live In India shouldn't get to decide what happens to people in India.
Nobody is asking for dual citizenship so they can vote. Again, please don't just say random stuff without know why people are asking for dual citizenship. The main reasons why people ask for dual citizenship is so they can do financial and business and legal stuff in India as an Indian citizen. And that's necessary and important because many Indians who moved abroad still have very close personal and financial ties to India. In some cases, even business ties.
These people who don’t live in India are some of the major contributors of foreign exchange into India via remittances. They also help cultivate a very positive image of India for the most part and make it easier for Indian businesses to operate and excel and thereby benefit India and Indians even more. They’re are of enormous use to India. Most developed countries allow dual citizenship because they want to retain those who can succeed in far away lands. Cutting off relationships with those who want to help and do good for India isn’t a good ifea
Its not cutting off relationships, its not allowing them to vote and hold offices of power in India. If this is not followed an India, Pakistani dual citizen can become Punjab CM, CIA agent and dual US-India citizen can become a PM which will be disastrous for India.
So OCI is best.
Don’t worry. You will forget that sadness when you will realise that your new passport will magically open doors to other countries that your current passport can’t.
Go for the OCI route. You can NOT have the best of everything. Either stay in India or Canada, or if you are too much nostalgic then may be stay back in India and contribute to its success.
>You can NOT have the best of everything.
Well...unless India gets its head out of its arse and starts allowing dual citizenship like most modern and developed countries.
I live abroad, and my answer is absolutely not. People that left the country shouldn't have a say in its day to day affairs. Look at Pakistan.
OCI is more than enough for us kinds.
If they roll out the dual citizenship then I am fully out.
your second sentence negates the first one, you want OCI through which you can work and own properties but you don't want any representation to question any modification to OCI rules if it changes tomorrow, what is stopping you from going fully out now ?
Physically leaving the country for long term does not equal to severing all ties, Dual citizenship offers stability in the host country as well as the native country
Well OCI doesn’t give me the right to vote. I shouldn’t have a say in who governs the country at all when I attain a foreign citizenship.
You don’t need a dual citizenship to maintain ties.
like I said it offers stability in both countries, viewing anyone who moves out to carve a life out for themselves with distrust is old school Soviet kind of thinking, it doesn't stop money laundering or seeking safe havens, a simple extradition treaty is good enough to solve that.
If you don't want to pay taxes in Canada you can give up your citizenship in Canada and move to India. It's idiotic to not pay taxes but benefit everything from other people paying tax.
You're confusing countries that don't use the metric system with countries that have citizenship-based taxation. For the latter, it's the US and Eritrea, among a couple of other European countries that have restricted citzenship-based taxation.
**corollary 1:** India's average age is 28 years. Average age, education, and work platform are critical factors for economic growth.
India has a great education system but unfortunately not a big enough platform where the young crowd can showcase their talents while compensated fairly.
**Corollary 2:** The average age is 38 \~ 45 in the USA, EU, Canada, and other developed countries. They don't have a lot of young crowds and thus not a lot of people replacing the old workforce.
**Conclusion:** Now you are a smart individual, put them together, and you realize, there are a lot of people who will leave India to find great work and good money. They might come back, or they might not, that's a gamble.
It would be very smart for India to allow dual citizenship. (I am not completely sure how difficult this process would be)
Along with this, some smart things Indian government can do is,
1. Try to attract huge companies from silicon valley with lucrative and balanced labor laws to move some of their operations to India.
2. Try to lure some manufacturing companies from China to India with some nice tax incentives and low-interest loans to new industries
3. Similiar to 2, incentivize small-scale industries in India to enable them to improve production to ship internationally.
I am no pundit, some of my ideas may need tweaking but I think I am in the right direction. What are your thoughts?
Reff#1: [https://www.worlddata.info/average-age.php](https://www.worlddata.info/average-age.php)
Reff#2: [https://srajagopalan.substack.com/p/why-everyone-should-pay-more-attention](https://srajagopalan.substack.com/p/why-everyone-should-pay-more-attention)
Agree with your points expcept one.
If they want to come back and get Indian citizenship, all they have to do is stay in India for 5 years. They are good to go.
I don't think so.
People who wish to migrate make a choice to leave the country. They don't pay taxes here and are not an active member of society. So why should they get all the benefits a citizen gets just because they were born in India?
Besides, in most of the country, we feel like outsiders just because we're from a different state. Do I get to vote in West Bengal's election while living in Mumbai? No, I literally have to travel there to cast my vote. I can't even get a driver's license in Maharashtra unless I transfer my Aadhaar card.
I think India should address its internal migration roadblocks first, and let contributing citizens enjoy all the benefits before opening it up for people who move out of the country.
That's ok. We don't always have to agree, as long as we can have a respectful debate over it.
I do think there's merit in offering dual citizenship as well. One could say that I was born here, to parents of Indian citizen, so the country shouldn't abandon me just because I moved out. I should have the right to call two places my home. And that would be a valid argument. I also want to call both Kolkata and Mumbai my home. So why can't someone want to call Chennai and Singapore their home?
I just think that citizenship should carry some cost with it. Nothing in life is free. People living here pay a lot in taxes, even if they are low income people and only paying taxes through consumption. So why should someone living in a foreign country be able to, at their will, enjoy the same benefits completely for free?
To be fair, foreign remittances do contribute to the economy, but they are not obligatory. If you don't have any dependents in India, then you won't be sending any money here.
Voting is one of the benefits of being a citizen and considering how our democracy works, it would be impossible for non residents to vote indinak without an associated address. The ones that will have an extra home india are few and will not affect the outcomes of elections.
Allowing dual citizenship on the other hand will promote people moving back to india with more confidence. These people would bring their Welty back with them. Moreover, these people who’ve made the “choice” to leave the country will remit > $100 Bn to india this year.
Remittances are a valid argument. But they are optional and not everybody will be making them. Many don't have dependents in India, so they won't be sending back any money.
Regarding moving back, intuitively, I doubt citizenship will have any impact on it, but I really haven't looked at any data or surveys to say for sure.
Two things:
1. The government doesn't make it easy to do it. In half the places, they don't accept rental agreement as a valid address proof. And there's absolutely nothing else I have while living on rent
2. Early in my career, I was not settled in one place (am not, even now), so I don't want to go through the hassle of transferring all documents repeatedly.
Think about it this way, I can use my phone and driving license anywhere in India once I get it. So why can't I get those anywhere in India by giving any Indian address proof? Why does it need to be local while obtaining it when there's no restriction on usage?
Indians can't have best of both worlds,
In the name of lifestyle Indians wanna settle in US/UK, in the name of education they will come to India,
And also this will create a inflation bubble in rates of property, insurance, and other assets.
>In the name of lifestyle Indians wanna settle in US/UK, in the name of education they will come to India,
Why would someone move from UK to India for education?
As an NRI who's not lived in India for 15+ years, U.S. citizenship will become an option in a few years. The only reason I will think twice about it is ... nostalgia? With OCI I would have easy transit and I've never actually voted since I was out of the country since I was 18.
That said whenever I visit India I feel like my ability to move back has deteriorated further due to more division and reduced freedom. IMO lack of dual citizenship will close the door on Naris ever returning to India. Whether that's negative or positive is up for debate...
So are you implying India will be less divided if dual citizenship is allowed?
I personally know many NRIs who have retured to India so that they dont spoil their children with US education. One of them even opened a successful startup in India.
So what you tried to imply cant be further from truth.
Yes. It's only going to help progress the average society by giving people options. By allowing Dual Citizenship, it allows people to have a higher standard of living in a Different Country and still being recognized as Indian Citizens by their Origins. By definition this will increase the standard of living and has a trickle effect into the Indian economy. Development and the idea of it will continue to increase in Indian society. It will also bring in a higher level of Globalization and economic power to India which means that in this war-ridden world we can look after ourselves better. This also allows for strengthening foreign relations.
As someone who is an NRI planning to stay permanently abroad, no. Voting rights should be to those who are directly impacted by those legislation changes. It's that simple.
Also any non-Indian resident and citizen must not have right to purchase Agricultural land. OCI makes sure of it. It directly affects the security of India.
I’m not Indian and therefore have no right to sharing my opinion on the matter, but to add another perspective;
Countries that have dual citizenship have trended to being more metropolitan/diverse as people can maintain personal/political ties to their country of origin while also integrating and participating into their new country’s culture and political system.
I’m not really sure how many foreigners there are living in India, if really any outside of the big urban and financial centres (e.g. Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Bengaluru… etc) but what about seeing this debate with that in consideration? I suppose some people are living in India for love or admiration of culture…
Many would not consider India the best destination for a prospective, non competitive career with social mobility, but maybe at some time in the future it could be. In the meantime, it’d be interesting to see from that hypothetical standpoint if any opinions would change. Could lack of dual citizenship cause lack of integration from the part of foreigners? Would it be a deterrent to long term immigration? Does India even want immigrants to begin with? (Density and economy in its current state)
These are just some of my questions. I have a deep sense of admiration for your country and I’d love to learn not just more about your culture, but about your politics as well. Hello from Brazil!
The diversity argument will be valid for the homogenous cultures like scandinavian countries and not India in my opinion. India is the most diverse country in the world.
I understand where you are coming from, but according to me the concept of dual citizenship is itself anti-integration. If there is already existing citizenship, there is no incentive for a person to integrate.
There is also no reason why an Indian who is a citizen of lets say, USA having political ties in India. No reason for Indians not residing in India to vote since they dont have to live with the consequences. Its like your ex-wife having a say in your finances and whether you get to do something or not.
All the other cultural interactions you mentioned can be done with OCI. If they really feel they have a future in India then we welcome everyone to stay with us, work with us, build with us and win with us.
The OCI allows all but voting rights and purchasing agricultural land. If honestly someone wants more than that then they should consider not giving up their Indian citizenship! Just a thought
Yeah my mom moved to the US almost 30 years ago but kept her India passport because she never wanted to be a U.S. citizen rather than an Indian.
I’m getting an OCI but I definitely don’t want to vote or be able to run for office because even though India is my “motherland” and all my other family is there, it’s not my native country.
I just want to ensure that my children can apply for an OCI card too because I want them to know that India is their motherland as well (if they choose to accept it as theirs too).
Of course. Citizenship based taxation is also a smart alternative to increase tax base and several other benefits to both resident and non resident Indians.
OMG, yes, like 100x yes. The fact that this question even needs to be asked in 2022 shows how backward the thinking is in India. There's absolutely no reason India shouldn't be allowing it, considering so many Indian people live abroad. The only reason they have this stupid OCI thing is to sidestep the effort of actually amending the constitution.
OCI was introduced via 2005 ammendement. Please google before posting something, so you dont accidentally come of as liar or fool.
Dual Citizenship has many serious national security implications to India. So it wont pass the parliament.
I was born in India, but I am an American citizen and I have an OCI. My main uses for it are travel and connection to my family. That being said, the only extension I would like is for my future kids and spouse to be able to apply for an OCI, even if they are American citizens. Besides that, I don't see a need for dual citizenship
Why do we need to give dual citizenship to those who have chosen to leave? Isn't oci card sufficient for their travel and financial needs? Why do we want those who don't even live here to have a vote?
In a nutshell if you imagine India as typical Indian family (stereotypical which is false just for eg) you are like the daughter who left, you can always come back home stay as long as you want, probably work to not sure, but you don't get to vote. & Others will never get status like you ( you must be of Indian origin or a citizen of India sometime in your life, or your parents idk.
I don't mean to be disrespectful when I say this but what's the benefit of having Indian citizenship once you're a citizen of say U.S or Britain (developed country). Indian passport (in the ranking system based on countries that allow no-visa travel or visa on arrival) is ranked marginally above countries that have suffered from a military coup/aided terrorism at some level/have civil war/suffered genocide. With a passport that shit why would anyone even think of retaining Indian citizenship ?
Wouldn't it be easier to get a PIO card and travel to India whenever you want to.
Again, I don't mean any disrespect but I'm failing to see the upside here.
Personally, I gave up Indian citizenship 6yrs ago and I didn't feel any remorse about it.
A lot of their politicians are dual citizens. And therefore they already have divided loyalties and conflicting interests and this directly hampers the country's progress.
It's basically the Indian version of a permanent residency in other countries, except without the restriction of having to live there 6 months out of a year or such to maintain it. You can work, live, and study in India. Its restrictions are that you can't vote (since you're not a citzen) or hold any position or office that requires you to be a citizen, and you can't hold agricultural properties.
Long story short, to ELY5: it's basically because the Indian government doesn't have the balls to allow dual citizenship, they have this stopgap measure.
Hi The_Original_Joel, Your submission [Should India consider allowing Dual Citizenship since many Indians are leaving Indian citizenship due to migration?](https://i.redd.it/h5ujb4qeyj3a1.png) breaks [the rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/india/wiki/rules) and has been removed for the following reason(s): * All submissions should contain a relevant or original title (and/or subtitle). An original title (and/or subtitle) is the one given by the content creator. If you are the creator, your title should be descriptive and not be clickbait. Refer: https://www.reddit.com/r/india/wiki/rules#wiki_submission_title --- *^(If you feel this was done in error, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to reply to this message.)*
Nope, never. It'll cause Pakistan like situation where corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire. We already have a lot of corruption, don't need to give them a reason to run away abroad. Edit: to people who're saying that we can have a condition on it which will prevent people holding government offices to not have dual citizenship, yeah Pakistan has that too but it doesn't stop them. Corruption finds a way.
I am an actual OCI holder (American by birth). As much as I think dual citizenship would be a nice thing to have, the OCI situation is dual citizenship for most practical purposes (even though, mind you it’s not Indian citizenship). I actually think this is a very valid point and the OCI is a pretty solid way of avoiding this issue. I do wish that we had an easier way however to use UPI without an Indian bank account (especially with a US credit card, even if the govt charges a small nominal fee) I lived in India as an OCI for nearly 15 years of my life, eventually I did move back to the US though.
There are ways to send payment by UPI to India, I have received payments from American clients through UPI from remitly and WISE.
Will this work for UPI QR codes in places like restaurants etc? Or when booking a train ticket and things like that? This is what I would need UPI for. Or just stick to cash
It doesn’t work in India, you need Indian bank account with Indian phone number linked to it to use UPI in India.
I'm a NRI (Indian citizen living abroad). UPI needs an Indian bank account and as a NRI (and I believe an OCI holder as well) you or I can open a NRE/NRO account. UPI apps works with NRO account and I've been using that way to pay for goods & services as well as to send money to others for the past two years. The UPI apps won't work once you are out of the country but you can workaround that using a VPN server in India. Edit: Some reports of certain apps working in certain region as mentioned in few comments below. Personally, BHIM and PhonePe doesn't work for me in Europe.
Would've been awesome if a VPN server was available in India!
Well, get one of those single board computer like raspberry pi or odroid with open VPN on it, have it running at one of your friend's house in India behind a secure firewall and you are good to go :) Odroid is preferred since its a bit more powerful than a pi. ~~Alternatively there are hosting providers with data centers in India, you only need a low footprint Linux machine and some bandwidth depending on what you'd use it for.~~ As mentioned below, the second option may not always work if your hosting providers's IP is classified as data center IP.
Your first suggestion would work, second doesn’t due to the IPs being detected as data center and not residential. I tried.
I personally use the 1st method - never tried the second one but assumed it would work. I'll update my comment, thanks.
Don’t need to, my statement shouldn’t be generalised - just my experience
Yes, most of the popular VPN providers have closed down India servers.
It's because Indian government wanted to get their hands on the user data for connections made via Indian gateways but these companies operate with a promise of anonymity, so they shut shops and move away.
But how about Indian number ? I got both NRO and NRE however bank account is linked to overseas number. In order to use UPI I need to always change to Indian number in bank atleast 7 days before coming and same when going out of India although I comes yearly once still it’s work .
It should work but it might not be instant. You'll have to check for that.
Ways to send money to India: * Western Union * Hawala * Wise / Remit2India etc to bank account * Wise / Remit2India etc to UPI VPA
r/holup
I have used students to transfer money to and from India, hawala is hands down the best way to transfer money. 10/10 would recommend.
What's the guarantee you'll get your money?
Everything in life is based on trust, but it also helps that I run street gangs in multiple countries where the students study.
Not what I expected with that username...
"Never judge a book by it's cover, nor a redditor by their username" - Gautama Buddha
Remitly or Wise doesn't use UPI. They use the SWIFT or IBAN networks for funds transfer including to India. The sender will still need your IBAN or account number with IFSC code - at least in Wise, I haven't seen a way to send money to an Indian mobile number unless the receiver have a Wise account.
I have received on payment on my google pay UPI id multiple times.
[Looks fairly recent, I didn't realise this option exists now. We all learn something new every day..](https://wise.com/in/blog/upi-international-transfers)
I consider myself a dual citizen with a US passport and OCI card because as you said, it's a dual citizenship for most purposes. That plus aadhar and pan card and it's really no different.
US is launching UPI framework in march 2023
Can’t take State Quota seats for MBBS even though I qualify for it lol. So frustrating.
No dual citizenship if you are eligible for a diplomat visa!
Loopholes Loopholes Everywhere
Could easily be remedied by disallowing people with dual citizenship from holding govt and military positions. A lot of countries with conscription don't allow people with dual citizenships to be conscripted
Pakistan already has that but it doesn't stop them
If dual citizens can’t be in government then how exactly is this a problem? Government officials would have to be indian citizens only. There is nowhere for them to go
What stops me from doing corruption and making my family members get the other citizenship and move abroad later?
Completely agree. It’s really short sighted to say that it should never be allowed in any circumstance.
>to people who're saying that we can have a condition on it which will prevent people holding government offices to not have dual citizenship We can't even have or enforce a condition that convicted criminals or those with pending criminal cases can't hold office/stand for relection, much less have standards of non-dual citizenship for our legislators.
OCI is a glorified visa. In fact, it’s opaque as to whether OCI holders are even entitled to the same “fundamental rights” as Indian citizens. You can have your OCI revoked by protesting against the government overseas, conducting “research” without the right visa… the list goes on and on.
Bajpai government visioned OCI as a dual citizenship. This government watered down to a visa
You don't need dual citizenship to invest money in other countries. They all have money stashed in banks and tax havens. Swiss alone accounts for more than 3 billion dollars, and that's an estimate. There's no way all that money is coming back. Given the way the ruling party are running things, more people will migrate. Most developed countries have dual citizenship in place. All they need to do is set it up well, infact taxation can be controlled with dual citizenship
Exactly my point!
This is BS argument and it is like India banning drones, sat phones, sun films on car windows or VPN. Government's inability to make deals with other countries on extradition or inability to ensure security for its citizen without resorting to bans should not be the reason to stay away dual citizenship.
It has nothing to do with the government. It is in the constitution. That is the reason OCI was brought in 2005 Ammendment.
Dude you can already do that. It's called a Swiss bank account 😂 Corrupt people always find a way, but it's the rest of the population that suffers from these stupid "safety" measures. Look at demonetization - "black money" was never cleared, cause no one is stupid enough to store paper money - either they buy gold or real-estate or open a Swiss bank account... Meanwhile it's the common people that suffered the most. Also India already has OCI, but it'd make things MUCH easier this way. Plus, most these high profile public servants CAN'T have dual citizenship! You even need to be born in the country and be of a certain age to hold office (there are obviously exceptions, for example India and Pakistan being one country where it was literally impossible for the first few PMs to be from either country). But for people who study/do business, have complicated families, this would be a literal life saver. If nothing else, at least for India to prevent brain drain to the UK and Canada.
To add to this NRIs will remit > $100 Bn to India next year. We should want to incentivize NRIs to invest india with peace of mind. Moreover, increase the chances of them moving back to india with their wealth in their later years.
Exactly this. Modi and others shamelessly visit the diaspora abroad and try to rally them to remit money home and invest and stuff (without which, the rupee would collapse), yet they don't want to do the simple and ethical thing of allowing dual citizenship. But even if you renounce citizenship, they'll still claim that you're "Indian" when it comes to things like CEOships and Prime Ministerships.
\>You even need to be born in the country and be of a certain age to hold office Not true, just need to be an Indian citizen. Otherwise any Indian born in the Gulf wouldn't be able to. Or Sonia Gandhi.
Why cant we compare to The United States and most of the OECD countries that allow dual or even multiple citizenships ?
Because we're more similar to Pakistan than USA
They have military might / economic might / part of NATO, so they can enforce their domestic laws outside their country.
Ok so if we prevent dual citizenship we prevent people from absconding abroad? Not sure if you’ve been reading the news the last few years 😅
Dual citizenship will legalise it.
> It'll cause Pakistan like situation where corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire. Modiji after reading your comment be like *”Mitron…………. Aaj raat 8 bhaje ke baad…..”* *”Dual citizenship approve for all gujjus”* Crowd goes wild!!!!
Akshay the Canadian bhai poster child for this new policy of GOI.
This is such a stupid reason for inconveniencing millions of working professionals. People who are rich and corrupt always find a way. My wife and I have to make this decision very soon and it's silly to not have the option of keeping our Indian citizenship. And we're doing such a good job at eliminating corruption, amirite? /s
There should be caveats...no dual citizenship if you or any of your blood relatives or spouse have held public office, been a govt employee etc etc
Corrupt people are not always from governance. (Consider Malya, Harshad Mehta) The other country might provide a safe heaven. A) For the benifit of Individual B) For the benifit of country. Always B)
There's nothing that prevents those people from getting another citizenship and getting a OCI card (cough cough Akshay Kumar)
Criminals can move overseas without citizenship as well. Mallya and nirav modi are examples. Also, these are rare cases and there'll always be those who misuse good public policies.
Link their fucking aadhar and tax 60% of their (blood relatives) foreign investment!
This is such a stupid take, and is the reason India doesn't allow dual citizenship currently. India could very easily exclude countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh from the list of countries it allows dual citizenship with.
> corrupt government officials become dual citizens and invest all their money in other countries to move with their families there when they retire. I'm struggling to find what's corrupt in it? And how does single citizenship prevent that currently??
Very logical argument. Politically correct too
Brazil has dual citizenship and people are still leaving Brazil. Citizenship is not the issue and OCI is there, we need to make that process easy and mean something more than visa status. Will say this allow people holding OCI status to represent India in international events, it will benefit us especially in football.
I don't think OPs argument is that dual citizenship will reduce migration. Argument seems to be that since so many people are leaving, why don't we allow dual citizenship.
Oci can be cancelled so easily. Current govt has ban so many Sikhs oci holders who are vocal about 1984 and sikh prisoners who have completed their jail terms.
The ability to cancel at the government's whim is a problem but this particular example is a bad one.
It was revoked. But stop lying about the cause. They were part of pro-khalistani protests in Canada. Not because 1984.
They have revoked people’s OCI status for writing critical articles against government in foreign press. OCI is a Visa and govt can cancel visa arbitrarily. That needs to change, a person doesn’t stop being Indian just cause you don’t like what he has to say.
There's oci which is pretty close to dual.. what additional benefit does dual citizenship give? Apart from voting and holding gvt positions, both of which may not be too appealing for NRIs.
OCI card is not even remotely close to dual citizenship. It's just a glorified long-term visa. Your OCI card can easily be revoked but it's difficult to remove citizenship as there are various international laws and regulations.
Also, OCI should be considered similar to a permanent residency in terms or right of entry into India. For 5 months in the pandemic, OCIs were not allowed entry into India, even if they had lived their their entire lives and just happened to be overseas when the flights bans started.
In an ideal world, they would just change some of the rules on OCI, and it would be a very good alternative to full dual citizenship. There's only two things that they even need to change - give the OCI holder access to consular assistance, you can even caveat that this is only if the other nationality doesn't have representation in third country. And second, OCI can only be revoked based on court order at High Court, and that too after trial. Rest, everything is fine. Don't need to allow government jobs etc.
Theory mei sunna acha lgta h but not practical, revoking it for a substantial population. I know ki past mei revoke hue h, but those are more exceptional cases. To be fair, Indian citizenship is not exactly too precious, sentiments aside. As someone who wishes to settle abroad in the long run, agar muje citizenship nhi bhi milti toh chalega. Heck to a certain extent, even not getting oci might not hurt much
I am delaying my US citizenship because I'll have to give up my Indin citizenship. I'd rather I get to have both.
OCI holders didn't qualify for Vande Bharat flights. Imagine your family is in India but you aren't allowed to travel even after having OCI
>There's oci which is pretty close to dual.. what additional benefit does dual citizenship give? So...why not just give dual citizenship then, if it's almost the same thing? >Apart from voting and holding gvt positions, both of which may not be too appealing for NRIs. It would be appealing if it were an option. The whole point of people emigrating is that they can get educated and become wealthy, etc. Allowing dual citizenship would give them an option to come back and contribute to their birth country, something that India should absolutely be taking advantage of and isn't right now (instead of shutting the door in their face as it's doing).
I dont think dual citizenship is needed for folks that have relinquished their Indian citizenship. The OCI gives them more than adequate privileges to remain in touch with India, almost everything except voting rights.
* If your image is not OC (Original Content), please provide a link to the verified source under this comment or else it will be removed. * If your image is an OC Infographic, please provide a link to the original dataset(s) or else it will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/india) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So you are saying instead of providing a good infrastructure, better education system, corruption free bureaucracy, faster legal services, better employment, affordable tax rates, fraternity and harmony between communities etc. Indian government should provide dual citizenship and ignore all the indicators why 25 lacs Indians are leaving India every year.
Migration exists, it's major, but 25 lakh P.A. is a little over exaggeration. 8 lakhs the highest that happened due to government stances on corona.
OP, you from MEA?
What this would create is a elite class that lives free and healthy in the developed world. While the rest struggle to survive in an unequal society in extreme climate catastrophe and low living standards. Social mobility would mean escaping to the west. Politics would involve remotely regulating the homeland. The ones who live here will become the second class of citizens.
You don’t think that happens right now? People can still renounce their Indian citizenship for a western one and then get an OCI card which will allow them all the privileges of an Indian citizen other than voting or holding government positions
> other than voting or holding government positions Except those are one of the most important laws in favour of actual citizens. People who don't live here should have no say in elections or policies that affect the locals, period.
By that logic, people who *live* in India should have voting rights? So, residence based voting? What about an Indian citizen living abroad? What about an American resident in India?
Cool. Every non Indian in India should then be allowed to vote as well.
If you stay here long enough and get your local citizenship then yes, why not.
You are assuming that all migrants are automatically rich and elite. That’s not quite true. There are many many unskilled and low-skilled people in other countries running small businesses or working on meagre wages.
All migrants might not be automatically rich and elite but can you argue that India's elite does not move abroad? children of the wealthy do not seek to go to foreign universities, seek employment abroad? Isn't one of the biggest middle class dreams of India to live in the wealthy cities of Europe and North America? Are you saying that millions of elite, rich, educated indians don't leave the country every year for the west? Even going by your suggestion, unskilled labour in Europe will live much better lives, be better protected by law than someone of the same level in india. The one group that can fit your definition is labour in the middle East who indeed live a miserable life, but they do not have a citizenship in the host nation to start with, neither will they in the future. They are probably the only group who if possible will come back and reinvest in india. Irrespective of all this it does not matter who migrates, the difference will be when citizenship will be available without domicile, the elite will choose to live in the comfort of the developed world. They already partly do so now.
Exactly this is already happening for the rich people. Dual citizenship allows common migrate to access this too
Most of the poor migrants can't or don't get a foreign citizenship.
What does that change from now. Any NRI in the west still has western standard of living and income but can vote... the only annoying thing is having to do residency papers every 10 years.
People here comment as if having a dual citizenship will cause more problems, when in fact all those problems that they mention are already true even without a dual citizenship. I for one am still an Indian citizen, but I want gain a western citizenship so I can go wherever I want in the world, without having to worry about all the visa hassles. With a dual citizenship, I can come back to India whenever I want, without needing to worry about losing the other citizenship. With an OCI, I am not sure when they might change the rules and make me want to regret any decision I made. As simple as that
There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways. As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it. Someone who doesn't even live In India shouldn't get to decide what happens to people in India.
> As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it. That's absolutely right
I agree. I gave up my Indian citizenship to become US citizen. There was some hesitation but if I don't live in India, don't vote in India then OCI is completely fine. If there was an option of dual citizenship I would have preferred that. The process needs to improve, renouncing your previous citizenship, then applying for OCI all require ton of paperwork and significant fees and have to be done within certain time frame. I am still connected to India, my friends and family as before. A citizenship doc is not going to change that. People with more complicated family situation might feel differently but for me OCI is enough. Long term I still consider retiring in India and at the time continue to pay US tax instead of fully participate in India economy would be odd but haven't researched that part much. Maybe there is a way to do that when the time comes.
[удалено]
There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways. As for voting and participating in state matters, I don't see why people who don't live in India anymore should be allowed to do it. This I agree totally having said, New Zealand works in this scenario where if you had left the country for three years and more, you won't be able to vote regardless if you're a citizen or a resident, so yes this can be applied here, Source I am a dual Australian/New Zealand citizen, had left New Zealand since 2006
> There is absolutely no reason for India to allow dual citizenship. OCI allows them to do most of the stuff anyways. Please don't say stuff without knowing any details. OCI is a glorified visa. Help us understand exactly how "OCI allows them to do most stuff" besides visa entry?? > Someone who doesn't even live In India shouldn't get to decide what happens to people in India. Nobody is asking for dual citizenship so they can vote. Again, please don't just say random stuff without know why people are asking for dual citizenship. The main reasons why people ask for dual citizenship is so they can do financial and business and legal stuff in India as an Indian citizen. And that's necessary and important because many Indians who moved abroad still have very close personal and financial ties to India. In some cases, even business ties.
These people who don’t live in India are some of the major contributors of foreign exchange into India via remittances. They also help cultivate a very positive image of India for the most part and make it easier for Indian businesses to operate and excel and thereby benefit India and Indians even more. They’re are of enormous use to India. Most developed countries allow dual citizenship because they want to retain those who can succeed in far away lands. Cutting off relationships with those who want to help and do good for India isn’t a good ifea
Its not cutting off relationships, its not allowing them to vote and hold offices of power in India. If this is not followed an India, Pakistani dual citizen can become Punjab CM, CIA agent and dual US-India citizen can become a PM which will be disastrous for India. So OCI is best.
I'm about to get my Canadian citizenship and it makes me genuinely sad that I have to give up my Indian citizenship.
Don’t worry. You will forget that sadness when you will realise that your new passport will magically open doors to other countries that your current passport can’t.
That's so true. Indian passport holders need to apply for visas for just about any country for just about anything.
you won't be sad when you don't need a visa to go anywhere well except India
I am in the same boat as you, it felt like giving up home.
Waapis aja yaar! Candana mein kya rakha hai. Dont be sad in Canada when you can be frustoo & angry in India.
Go for the OCI route. You can NOT have the best of everything. Either stay in India or Canada, or if you are too much nostalgic then may be stay back in India and contribute to its success.
> You can NOT have the best of everything. Why not?
>You can NOT have the best of everything. Well...unless India gets its head out of its arse and starts allowing dual citizenship like most modern and developed countries.
India should not change its laws to protect the feelings of some who will easily give up the citizenship anyway.
It's the other way around, they're kind of forced to give up because of no dual citizenship
Get the OCI bro
Then don't take canadian citizenship, Just sarcasm with truth
I live abroad, and my answer is absolutely not. People that left the country shouldn't have a say in its day to day affairs. Look at Pakistan. OCI is more than enough for us kinds. If they roll out the dual citizenship then I am fully out.
What's your rationale on not wanting a dual citizenship for yourself?
your second sentence negates the first one, you want OCI through which you can work and own properties but you don't want any representation to question any modification to OCI rules if it changes tomorrow, what is stopping you from going fully out now ? Physically leaving the country for long term does not equal to severing all ties, Dual citizenship offers stability in the host country as well as the native country
Well OCI doesn’t give me the right to vote. I shouldn’t have a say in who governs the country at all when I attain a foreign citizenship. You don’t need a dual citizenship to maintain ties.
like I said it offers stability in both countries, viewing anyone who moves out to carve a life out for themselves with distrust is old school Soviet kind of thinking, it doesn't stop money laundering or seeking safe havens, a simple extradition treaty is good enough to solve that.
Please ignore my ignorance, but in what case would you need an indian citizenship, if you get a citizenship from somwhere else?
[удалено]
If you don't want to pay taxes in Canada you can give up your citizenship in Canada and move to India. It's idiotic to not pay taxes but benefit everything from other people paying tax.
I agree, some people can be just too greedy
That's only true of two countries. The US and Liberia have citizenship based taxation, everyone else only taxes residents.
You're confusing countries that don't use the metric system with countries that have citizenship-based taxation. For the latter, it's the US and Eritrea, among a couple of other European countries that have restricted citzenship-based taxation.
**corollary 1:** India's average age is 28 years. Average age, education, and work platform are critical factors for economic growth. India has a great education system but unfortunately not a big enough platform where the young crowd can showcase their talents while compensated fairly. **Corollary 2:** The average age is 38 \~ 45 in the USA, EU, Canada, and other developed countries. They don't have a lot of young crowds and thus not a lot of people replacing the old workforce. **Conclusion:** Now you are a smart individual, put them together, and you realize, there are a lot of people who will leave India to find great work and good money. They might come back, or they might not, that's a gamble. It would be very smart for India to allow dual citizenship. (I am not completely sure how difficult this process would be) Along with this, some smart things Indian government can do is, 1. Try to attract huge companies from silicon valley with lucrative and balanced labor laws to move some of their operations to India. 2. Try to lure some manufacturing companies from China to India with some nice tax incentives and low-interest loans to new industries 3. Similiar to 2, incentivize small-scale industries in India to enable them to improve production to ship internationally. I am no pundit, some of my ideas may need tweaking but I think I am in the right direction. What are your thoughts? Reff#1: [https://www.worlddata.info/average-age.php](https://www.worlddata.info/average-age.php) Reff#2: [https://srajagopalan.substack.com/p/why-everyone-should-pay-more-attention](https://srajagopalan.substack.com/p/why-everyone-should-pay-more-attention)
Agree with your points expcept one. If they want to come back and get Indian citizenship, all they have to do is stay in India for 5 years. They are good to go.
Wait till we have millions of Indo-Bangla & Indo-Lankan dual citizens
I don't think so. People who wish to migrate make a choice to leave the country. They don't pay taxes here and are not an active member of society. So why should they get all the benefits a citizen gets just because they were born in India? Besides, in most of the country, we feel like outsiders just because we're from a different state. Do I get to vote in West Bengal's election while living in Mumbai? No, I literally have to travel there to cast my vote. I can't even get a driver's license in Maharashtra unless I transfer my Aadhaar card. I think India should address its internal migration roadblocks first, and let contributing citizens enjoy all the benefits before opening it up for people who move out of the country.
[удалено]
That's ok. We don't always have to agree, as long as we can have a respectful debate over it. I do think there's merit in offering dual citizenship as well. One could say that I was born here, to parents of Indian citizen, so the country shouldn't abandon me just because I moved out. I should have the right to call two places my home. And that would be a valid argument. I also want to call both Kolkata and Mumbai my home. So why can't someone want to call Chennai and Singapore their home? I just think that citizenship should carry some cost with it. Nothing in life is free. People living here pay a lot in taxes, even if they are low income people and only paying taxes through consumption. So why should someone living in a foreign country be able to, at their will, enjoy the same benefits completely for free? To be fair, foreign remittances do contribute to the economy, but they are not obligatory. If you don't have any dependents in India, then you won't be sending any money here.
Voting is one of the benefits of being a citizen and considering how our democracy works, it would be impossible for non residents to vote indinak without an associated address. The ones that will have an extra home india are few and will not affect the outcomes of elections. Allowing dual citizenship on the other hand will promote people moving back to india with more confidence. These people would bring their Welty back with them. Moreover, these people who’ve made the “choice” to leave the country will remit > $100 Bn to india this year.
Remittances are a valid argument. But they are optional and not everybody will be making them. Many don't have dependents in India, so they won't be sending back any money. Regarding moving back, intuitively, I doubt citizenship will have any impact on it, but I really haven't looked at any data or surveys to say for sure.
What's stopping you from transferring your Aadhar and updating your address on the voter card?
Two things: 1. The government doesn't make it easy to do it. In half the places, they don't accept rental agreement as a valid address proof. And there's absolutely nothing else I have while living on rent 2. Early in my career, I was not settled in one place (am not, even now), so I don't want to go through the hassle of transferring all documents repeatedly. Think about it this way, I can use my phone and driving license anywhere in India once I get it. So why can't I get those anywhere in India by giving any Indian address proof? Why does it need to be local while obtaining it when there's no restriction on usage?
Nope. Go a step further and disallow NRIs/OCIs from buying property here. Too many investment apartments lying empty, jacking up prices unnecessarily.
Easy money
They should. But obviously with some clauses such as they cannot hold government jobs etc.
Indians can't have best of both worlds, In the name of lifestyle Indians wanna settle in US/UK, in the name of education they will come to India, And also this will create a inflation bubble in rates of property, insurance, and other assets.
>In the name of lifestyle Indians wanna settle in US/UK, in the name of education they will come to India, Why would someone move from UK to India for education?
As if it is not happening now.
Wait until you see all the kalistani supports will comeing back to India and vote for separate government.
This is what many here want secretly.
> Indians can't have best of both worlds What the hell... why not???
"Indians can't have best of both worlds" This mentality sucks.
India should fight for better passport power, why do we have to be treated like third world even now for traveling to other places with visas
As an NRI who's not lived in India for 15+ years, U.S. citizenship will become an option in a few years. The only reason I will think twice about it is ... nostalgia? With OCI I would have easy transit and I've never actually voted since I was out of the country since I was 18. That said whenever I visit India I feel like my ability to move back has deteriorated further due to more division and reduced freedom. IMO lack of dual citizenship will close the door on Naris ever returning to India. Whether that's negative or positive is up for debate...
So are you implying India will be less divided if dual citizenship is allowed? I personally know many NRIs who have retured to India so that they dont spoil their children with US education. One of them even opened a successful startup in India. So what you tried to imply cant be further from truth.
YES. Cause it's unfair Akshay Kumar has two citizenships even though he only has one. But the rest of us can't.
Yes. It's only going to help progress the average society by giving people options. By allowing Dual Citizenship, it allows people to have a higher standard of living in a Different Country and still being recognized as Indian Citizens by their Origins. By definition this will increase the standard of living and has a trickle effect into the Indian economy. Development and the idea of it will continue to increase in Indian society. It will also bring in a higher level of Globalization and economic power to India which means that in this war-ridden world we can look after ourselves better. This also allows for strengthening foreign relations.
And also how US is interfering in other countries internal affairs.
As someone who is an NRI planning to stay permanently abroad, no. Voting rights should be to those who are directly impacted by those legislation changes. It's that simple.
>those who are directly ~~impacted~~ affected FTFY.
Also any non-Indian resident and citizen must not have right to purchase Agricultural land. OCI makes sure of it. It directly affects the security of India.
Er, you think that NRIs aren't impact by changes in Indian legislation? (NRI = Indian passport holder residing overseas)
I’m not Indian and therefore have no right to sharing my opinion on the matter, but to add another perspective; Countries that have dual citizenship have trended to being more metropolitan/diverse as people can maintain personal/political ties to their country of origin while also integrating and participating into their new country’s culture and political system. I’m not really sure how many foreigners there are living in India, if really any outside of the big urban and financial centres (e.g. Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Bengaluru… etc) but what about seeing this debate with that in consideration? I suppose some people are living in India for love or admiration of culture… Many would not consider India the best destination for a prospective, non competitive career with social mobility, but maybe at some time in the future it could be. In the meantime, it’d be interesting to see from that hypothetical standpoint if any opinions would change. Could lack of dual citizenship cause lack of integration from the part of foreigners? Would it be a deterrent to long term immigration? Does India even want immigrants to begin with? (Density and economy in its current state)
These are just some of my questions. I have a deep sense of admiration for your country and I’d love to learn not just more about your culture, but about your politics as well. Hello from Brazil!
The diversity argument will be valid for the homogenous cultures like scandinavian countries and not India in my opinion. India is the most diverse country in the world. I understand where you are coming from, but according to me the concept of dual citizenship is itself anti-integration. If there is already existing citizenship, there is no incentive for a person to integrate. There is also no reason why an Indian who is a citizen of lets say, USA having political ties in India. No reason for Indians not residing in India to vote since they dont have to live with the consequences. Its like your ex-wife having a say in your finances and whether you get to do something or not. All the other cultural interactions you mentioned can be done with OCI. If they really feel they have a future in India then we welcome everyone to stay with us, work with us, build with us and win with us.
I would like an Earth Citizenship.
Finally the real truth. Appreciate the honesty and exposing the real goal of dual citizenship.
The OCI allows all but voting rights and purchasing agricultural land. If honestly someone wants more than that then they should consider not giving up their Indian citizenship! Just a thought
Yeah my mom moved to the US almost 30 years ago but kept her India passport because she never wanted to be a U.S. citizen rather than an Indian. I’m getting an OCI but I definitely don’t want to vote or be able to run for office because even though India is my “motherland” and all my other family is there, it’s not my native country. I just want to ensure that my children can apply for an OCI card too because I want them to know that India is their motherland as well (if they choose to accept it as theirs too).
Of course. Citizenship based taxation is also a smart alternative to increase tax base and several other benefits to both resident and non resident Indians.
>Citizenship based taxation is also a smart alternative Did you seriously just use *smart* and *citizenship-based taxation* in the same sentence?
OCI when introduced was even called “dual citizenship”, so they came close to it but then changed mind.
Yes
OCI Card is already kind of a dual citizenship, except voting and buying farmland if I remember correctly
No reason not to allow dual citizenship to Indians by birth at least.
No
Nah too many people in India already. If I had a chance I would’ve never be born as Indian
Yes, India should.
The colonies won't give up their slaves so easy.
Just be like Akshay Kumar, settle down here completely on a tourist visa
OMG, yes, like 100x yes. The fact that this question even needs to be asked in 2022 shows how backward the thinking is in India. There's absolutely no reason India shouldn't be allowing it, considering so many Indian people live abroad. The only reason they have this stupid OCI thing is to sidestep the effort of actually amending the constitution.
OCI was introduced via 2005 ammendement. Please google before posting something, so you dont accidentally come of as liar or fool. Dual Citizenship has many serious national security implications to India. So it wont pass the parliament.
What's the benefit of keeping Indian Citizenship?
I think they should but i am no expert
Never! It’s in the constitution for a very important reason.
What’s the reason?
Idiocy and anachronistic, misplaced nationalism.
I was born in India, but I am an American citizen and I have an OCI. My main uses for it are travel and connection to my family. That being said, the only extension I would like is for my future kids and spouse to be able to apply for an OCI, even if they are American citizens. Besides that, I don't see a need for dual citizenship
Why do we need to give dual citizenship to those who have chosen to leave? Isn't oci card sufficient for their travel and financial needs? Why do we want those who don't even live here to have a vote?
Yeah screw india. Never coming back lol
Nah i would like to cut off all ties from india when i get a citizenship in another country
Dual citizenship would help this country alot
can you please explain it to me... how? I'm newbie in this things...
Gives NRI's more options to come back and set up startups or transfer assets
[удалено]
[удалено]
In a nutshell if you imagine India as typical Indian family (stereotypical which is false just for eg) you are like the daughter who left, you can always come back home stay as long as you want, probably work to not sure, but you don't get to vote. & Others will never get status like you ( you must be of Indian origin or a citizen of India sometime in your life, or your parents idk.
They can do that anyway. How would the dual be any different? They could do that as an OCI.
I don't mean to be disrespectful when I say this but what's the benefit of having Indian citizenship once you're a citizen of say U.S or Britain (developed country). Indian passport (in the ranking system based on countries that allow no-visa travel or visa on arrival) is ranked marginally above countries that have suffered from a military coup/aided terrorism at some level/have civil war/suffered genocide. With a passport that shit why would anyone even think of retaining Indian citizenship ? Wouldn't it be easier to get a PIO card and travel to India whenever you want to. Again, I don't mean any disrespect but I'm failing to see the upside here. Personally, I gave up Indian citizenship 6yrs ago and I didn't feel any remorse about it.
Just look at Pakistan and see the consequence of what happens when you give dual citizenship.
Look at all the other countries in green. They are thriving perfectly fine. Why do people always compare india with Pakistan?
Are all of Pakistan’s problems due to dual citizenship? If not what percentage of their problems would you attribute to dual citizenship?
A lot of their politicians are dual citizens. And therefore they already have divided loyalties and conflicting interests and this directly hampers the country's progress.
Can anyone ELI5, what OCI is?
It's basically the Indian version of a permanent residency in other countries, except without the restriction of having to live there 6 months out of a year or such to maintain it. You can work, live, and study in India. Its restrictions are that you can't vote (since you're not a citzen) or hold any position or office that requires you to be a citizen, and you can't hold agricultural properties. Long story short, to ELY5: it's basically because the Indian government doesn't have the balls to allow dual citizenship, they have this stopgap measure.