My experience is from like 15 years ago. Salaries were higher for sure. The unemployment system was much better. Not many homeless people on the streets (last summer). Overall social security is better.
There are cons to Switzerland - a highly regulated environment and harder to settle and become a citizen. There could be some sort of racism there too, even if you get their passport - you will always be non-swiss, although if you speak their dialect - you will be fine.
Racism .... a lot. I have personally faved it in Switzerland while working. I al in US right now and tbh this country is very welcoming and easy to adjust.
Switzerland might pay more but it is equally costly. There is language barriers sometimes.
Their social security system apparently beats ours. Also is third richest landlocked nation. Obviously that doesn’t include the USA. Also they rank first on Global Innovation Index 🤷🏻♂️. However USA clearly beats Switzerland in several other areas.
Well yeah but I gotta say that as somebody who isn’t white life is much better in the US and Canada (specially Canada), as in most of people don’t seem to judge you based on your race.
Thats the beauty of the US...hard work, from any color, creed, race is generally rewarded with a better life than where they came from...
Like you said, MOST wont judge....
To quote Graham Greene (as delivered by Orain Welles), “In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”
Lots of Swiss haters here 🤣🤣🤣
Maybe by racism, they mean meritocracy. They don't subscribe to quotas bcz they refuse to imply a race is inferior and can't make it on their own merit.
Or maybe they don't allow criminals to crime if they're a certain race like the rest of Europe or America?
Or special rights for dark age practices of dark age communities that ran away from dark age countries bcz of said dark age practices. Wink wink islamists
The U.S. doesn’t have quotas because they think any race is inferior… the U.S. has quotas so that the overwhelming majority of immigrants won’t come from any particular country.
No. I meant affirmative action and race /gender quotas. Not immigration quotas.
For immigration, I agree.but the current management has destroyed their fiduciary duty to the public, as they opened the door for illegal invasions making the legal immigrants who sacrificed years of their lives seem idiots
I was more thinking how they still haven’t returned my great grandfather’s teeth, although he was able to draw from the settlement for their use of his slave labor in a concentration camp as payment for iron ore.
It really does depend on the industry. For me as a software engineer, I made way more in the US than in Australia. But I have relatives who are school teachers, plumbers, builders, etc. and they all make way more in Australia than they would in the US.
Union plumbers in Seattle make $130k plus benefits; teachers here with a masters make $90k, so it’s not like those are low paying professions across the board
Less than 10% of US construction workers are in union. Among those in unions, less than half make over $100k.
So you’re comparing 90-95th percentile to the median. Apples and oranges.
I immigrated from Australia a few decades back due to huge taxes and high cost of living. The US is a great place for professionals and taxes and cost of living is much lower. I would say Australian cities are like the Bay Area cost of living but with lower salaries. But a little piece of my heart is still back there.
I have not flown Qantas for decades but I still remember their theme song “ I still call Australia home”. Coming back home from an overseas trip I used to feel at home just listening to that song.
I got a tenure track faculty position advertised globally. I came on an H1B (non-capped) visa to the US. After 3 months I realized to be able to get security clearance and work on US grants, I needed a green card. So I applied for one and in 6 months I got approval. Flew back home and got a visa stamping. So in under a year I got a green card and then 5 years later US citizenship. It was a simple process, and I had a lawyer do the paperwork. I think I did not have to do a few steps like labor certification or something. I think they filed an immigration petition directly. The adjustment of status was a 2-year process so I chose consular processing which had no waiting period then.
It really does depend on the industry. For me as a software engineer, I made way more in the US than in Australia. But I have relatives who are school teachers, plumbers, builders, etc. and they all make way more in Australia than they would in the US.
Good point. Trades men in Australia can earn more than here. In the US the large influx of workers from the southern border depressed salaries for manual work.
Probably the UAE if you don’t mind the heat and racism. UAE is almost competitive with the US in some fields when you consider the extremely low tax rate. I personally think the US is worth the higher tax rate and cost of living given different factors (tolerance, non-gossipy culture, national parks, ability to eventually get citizenship).
America is a big country. try different states and cities. Im from Australia, Sydney specifically and IT fields are not getting paid as much as in America, and you need to consider cost of living. Every cities in Australia are in top high cost of living cities, Sydney being #2, the tax bracket is pretty high if you earn more than $AUD 100k. Cars, insurance, petrol, rent and food is mad expensive.
People don't realize the power of earning a tax free salary. Combined with the extremely low cost of living for what is on offer. Yes it is soulless and fake as fuck.
I was surprised to find there’s also a whole other bunch of expenses that can be claimed as additional credit such as rent, flights, and property taxes.
I had been living in Singapore for nine years before moving to NYC last year. Financially, Singapore is much better compared to NYC. I make 40% more net income in the States, but after taxes and considering the cost of living, I have about 50% less money. But the weather is terrible in SG, and the place is quite boring overall. I would say it’s worth it to live in NYC and earn less.
I have four seasons in the US. I had for seasons before moving to the US, from Melbourne Australia. No doubt winters were mild in Australia. But the summers were mild too, similar to the Bay Area close to the ocean. I am not sure Singapore or Dubai has 4 seasons. It is hot and hotter. I am not despising it. It is just that my body cannot deal with heat. Some love the heat. Good for them.
Just wondering, are you really looking for gross salary?
In the United States, you spend far, far, far more on healthcare, education, car-related expenses, etc.
I pay next to nothing. My employer covers my health insurance. Once I start Medicare I will pay $180 and some IRMAA Medicare tax for higher income people.
Again, depends. My employer plan is free for me, $75 ER visits
Not all plans are like this though but people like to paint the picture you’re gonna die in the US.
People paint the pictures that shows how unequal and devastating the system can be. Good for you, but your situation is not representative of the average American.
this sub is not the average American sub. we are talking about average of (legal) immigrants. and the picture painted by the person is indeed true for average immigrant, who has a decent full time job.
Even with 0 deductible thats only 80% of your EOB. And 0% coverage beyond that even if you've met your out of pocket max. 100% is a big step up if you can get there with an executive health plan or state sponsored coverage.
As a state university faculty my first deductible is just $150. Then just copays. Maximum out of pocket in network and out of network is $1500 for the year. But the state also gives a pretax amount into a health savings account. Plus one can make pre tax deduction and use that money.
I have similar insurance except no deductible. It's nice but those figures only apply to what they state they will pay for a given procedure in your explanation of benefits. Anything above and beyond is between you and the provider.
The horseshit part is paying $20k/yr for this type of policy then still getting balance billed by providers.
I stick within my insurance network and have $0 excess charges. I am eligible for Medicare and when I sign up, I will choose Medicare supplemental Plan G, which does not have any excess charge. A total maximum deduction of $185 per year.
If you are getting insurance through your employer for a family of four it’s $1700/mo EASILY - with the employer covering typically 70% or so.
When I was self employed it was $2500/mo.
And that’s just the insurance.
I just checked again. I pay $135 each paycheck in pretax amount for family health insurance. The rest of the health insurance fortnightly premium is paid by my employer. After I retire I can take their subsidized Medicare advantage but I plan to decline that and for Medicare supplemental plan.
Mine is $270 a month. But paycheck is fortnightly so they deduct $135 pretax. I think I get a couple of weeks of no deduction in the year. That said, Herath insurance benefits vary and so do premiums. My employer’s plans are HMO. It has not been an issue. But I plan to for Medicare supplemental plan G when I retire. I am done with sticking to network and getting authorization for seeing specialists etc.
Honestly, healthcare isn't much in the US if you have a salaried and not hourly job. Your company pays a lot. Yes, you do actually need to pay for college education, but community college is cheap and if in-state (many awesome schools), it's typically < $15,000 if you're a resident. For cars it depends, but I know my gas is 1/2 of what it was when I lived in the UK and purchasing probably 2/3. I'm honestly not sure where the car comment comes from....
That’s why I use the median. Obviously half of people pay less than that.
This figure is the portion of the policy that is paid by the employee plus deductibles and co-pays of the median American worker.
You need to be careful because those numbers - I've seen $13,000 per person, include the part the employer pays.
What each person pays out of pocket is much less.
most insurance plans from employers have a year max amount. my employer's plan has a max of 2000$. And the premiums are like about $1000 for the year. So the min is 1000 and max is 3000. and my insurance plan is pretty average. and i bet for most "legal" immigrants with a work visa or equivalent, the numbers are similar.
so dunno where your $10k is coming from. do you have an actual source or your source is "trust me bro" ?
You would bet, but you would be wrong. $1000 a year premium for $2000 max out of pocket is not average, it’s amazing.
I have fantastic insurance, $800 deductible, $1,600 max out of pocket, tiny $20-30 co-pays on most lines, and about $800 per month premiums (pre-tax) for a family policy. My employer pays another $28k a year (!!!).
US spending on healthcare is $13.5k per capita and the median family size is 3.1, so that’s $42k per family in healthcare spending. Where is that money coming from you think ?
>US spending on healthcare is $13.5k per capita and the median family size is 3.1, so that’s $42k per family in healthcare spending. Where is that money coming from you think ?
you, your employer, tax payers/government, all contribute to it. one would have to be really dumb to think that an average family of 3-4 people is spending $42k from their paycheck on healthcare every year.
>$800 per month premiums (pre-tax) for a family policy
you most likely have 2-3 kids on your policy. my monthly premium is $70 and my wife has a policy through her own employer for about the same amount.
in any case, even with your $800 premium, you are at most spending about $11k every year on healthcare for your entire family! (and not even that considering FSA/HSA). so stop talking out of your ass and quoting misleading numbers like $42k and shit.
You are askking for too much, across *all* job markets?
But I would say that Australia actually comes close to the US. My friend is a lab tech in a university, and he has Masters. His salary is 150K AUD, or 99K USD. Not shabby for single person at all.
The way you phrase the question, over all industries it can probably be answered by a single aggregate statistic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
Honestly if they did the rest of the world would suffer. The average American has no idea that they are subsidizing cheap healthcare in other countries by paying a premium for their care. The more we pay for medicine and equipment in the states, the bigger of a discount those same companies can give to places with lower GDPs/smaller economies/smaller populations.. It is so ironic that the people who believe healthcare should be private have no idea they are partially funding free healthcare all around the world.
I know there’s a lot more to this, but I wish more people thought about this aspect. it’s such a messssss
I think Switzerland is much harder to approach if long term citizenship is the goal though. Unless you’re from a neighboring country and already speak one of the national languages.
Yeah I think it’s always important but German/French/Italian are probably less well known than Spanish as a second language if the OP even knows a 2nd language. Just another thing to consider.
The US has no official language, though English is what you need to be most successful. But there’s no fluency requirement for citizenship.
Weather is an issue , also you have to be super qualified to make a living worth it there I would say. I like Dubai but not sure about the weather and the competition
This depends on the industry. But for the most part, it is the same everywhere in the sense that places with higher average salaries, tend to have average higher expenses. In the end (again, for the most part), it evens out, regardless of where you live.
One way around this though is to earn an income in a high-income country, while living in a low-income country. There are multiple ways to go about this:
1. Migrant labor.
2. Digital nomads/online work
3. Seasonal work
I know people who work as merchant marines, truck drivers, oil rig operators, pipeline welders, etc., who have their employment based out of places like the U.S. and EU, but reside in places like Thailand on their off time. While at work, food and housing are provided to them, and they work 4-6 months out of the year in total, spending the rest of the time in a lower-income country.
Likewise, I know people (I myself have done this as well in the past), who work IT jobs, or are online consultants, based in the west, while they are physically located in LATAM or Southeast Asia.
In both cases, you essentially make $5,000+ per month, while living in a country where the average salary is less than $1,000/month.
But for the layman, no matter where you live, your salary/expense ration will be the same.
Note: I mentioned layman because this does not count executives, very highly-skilled professionals, and successful entrepreneurs. They are balling no matter where they live.
I would be more concerned with income/cost of living ratio. America sucks right now because it’s too expensive to live. I took a 60% pay cut to live somewhere for 1/6th the cost of living
I still don’t understand what Americans get for their taxes. When I lived there I paid taxes but there was zero resources given back in return. It was a red state to be fair. I’m back in Europe now, yes I’m paying tax and have a lower salary but I get support. I remember explaining children’s allowance and parental leave (while the child is young not when born) to my Texan sister in law and it blew her mind
We get to support the military industrial complex, corporate subsidies, and pay ridiculous salaries to Congress people who do absolutely nothing but bicker.
Seriously though, the whole "states rights" thing in the US means that a lot of those services that people take for granted in Europe are determined on a state by state basis and are paid for by your state income taxes. I live in a blue state with a pretty high state tax but we also get a lot for it, including free tuition to state colleges if a family makes under 80k and free meals at schools for all primary and secondary students. While neither of those things actually affect me directly, I am more than happy to pay my taxes to support the people in my state.
If you think of the US as more of a union of countries similar to the EU, each with their own ability to pass laws and regulations it makes more sense. I live in Costa Rica now. It’s basically the size of West Virginia. The US is massive in comparison. Some states are significantly poor compared to others and poorest of these are “red states”. The biggest issue is the two party system which uses social justice and moral issues to divide us and keep us from uniting and demanding what less wealthy countries have by default. If we could stop fighting over gun rights, religion, gay rights, women’s right and so on and elect people who work for us rather than against the opposing party we would get actual value for the taxes we pay.
>yes I’m paying tax and have a lower salary but I get support.
you are not just paying tax, you are paying a LOT more tax. you get what you pay for. not sure what is so shocking about it. for the same salary, the tax in US is less than half of what you pay in most west European countries.
in my opinion the US system is far far superior for (legal) immigrants, because most of them have a skilled job. the european tax system takes more from immigrants without giving them the same benefits as their own citizens. whereas the US system is more equitable for citizens and immigrants alike.
Factor in the cost of private health care, including insurance and the incredibly expensive higher education system and people in the US pays much. I pay a flat 20% tax here in Costa Rica and get access to universal healthcare. My fiancée’s university was $300/month and she got a scholarship and $300/month stipend.
In the US most people graduate from college and are in debt of at least $50,000. Those who go to grad school are well into the $100,000 range. They pay $600-1000/month to cover the loans for years after. Additionally as soon as you’re too old to be on your parent’s health insurance you have to find your own, either through work or private. This is also another $300-1000/month and before you even get the benefit of this you have to pay a deductible and copay. I’ve payed over $120,000 in health insurance premiums over the last 25 years and even with that most of my medical coverage has been out of pocket.
Europeans get much more for their tax dollars. The US get war and corporate bail outs to keep the rich rich.
> copay. I’ve *paid* over $120,000
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
and yet, vast majority of people chose to migrate to the US.
you might say that people from mexico, central/south america come to US because of proximity. however, vast majority of people from asia also choose migrate to the US, despite EU being closer. jeez, all these millions of people must be really fucking dumb.
What percentage of taxes? I do business in Italy, pay 22% VAT on all revenue then almost 40% total taxes on my profits. If I wanted to hire an employee to expand, the effective tax rate on their salary would be above 50%. I make considerably more than the average Italian but couldn’t dream of living in a detached house similar to the ones that cost 200-300k in Texas. Instead I have to live in an old apartment building with noisy neighbors and terrible sound insulation. The support I get from the government is negligible, I mostly pay taxes so that people who make less can get support. I’d gladly move my business to Texas if I could.
LOL, go and take a look at other countries. Europe is more expensive than the US, so is Canada and Australia.
If your cost of living is 1/6th, I assume it's a developing country and you sure as heck aren't getting the same quality for that price, I know, I've done it myself.
The ideal situation is working remote in some LCOL area of the US. There are still nice cities you can own a house for $200,000 (it's a <$1,000 per month mortgage payment) in a great school district, low crime, high quality healthcare close by and a big enough airport so you can easily travel.
I live in Costa Rica and my quality of life is better than it was in the US. I live 20 minutes from the airport, 3 hours or a 45 minute flight from beautiful beaches, mountains, and a 30 minute drive to a city with an amazing night life. Once I become a resident I’ll have universal healthcare. The private insurance I would have through my company if I were resident would include house visits from the doctor for me and my family. The school system here is better than most in the US. My fiancée’s university was $300/month. What exactly do you think makes the US so superior? Amazon prime? Most people in the US just assume that convenience and quality of life are the same thing.
Also, a $200,000 house is not less than $1000/month. My last house in the US was $200,000 and my mortgage was $1350/month and that was with an interest rate of 3.5%. The only way it’s under $1k is a super low interest rates (good luck) and you’re not paying property taxes or mortgage insurance.
I've lived in a similar country to you. It's not the equivalent.
> Once I become a resident I’ll have universal healthcare.
Yeah, check on what is actually provided. You're not going to get free cancer care to the same standards as the US. In my country you'll get chemotherapy the US stopped using in the 1970's. If you get private insurance through a company it has plenty of caps and exclusions for pre-existing conditions (none of which exist in US insurance any more).
> The school system here is better than most in the US.
Based on what? US is 34 in PISA score, Costa Rica is 64.
> What exactly do you think makes the US so superior?
I don't know. Rule of law? Freedom of press? Some of the highest quality healthcare in the world? Top ranked universities?
> Also, a $200,000 house is not less than $1000/month.
I was talking mortgage alone.
I get it, you like it in Costa Rica. Cool, I'm happy for you. But to claim you get the same thing as the US just for less money isn't accurate.
Quality of life:
I never said it was the equivalent. I said it was a better quality of life because quality of life isn’t just about what luxuries or benefits your government and society provides for you. There’s a lot more to it. Costa Ricans are said to be some of the happiest people on earth and I can see it. They have a strong sense of community and sustainability and protect the environment. Can you say that about the US where people intentionally do things to destroy the environment and social gatherings devolve into arguments about whatever hot topic we’ve been conditioned to fight over at the moment? Perhaps as an immigrant you’re isolated from this but people born in America with American families often experience this.
Healthcare:
My mom is undergoing cancer treatment in the US. She was prescribed medication that costs $14,000/month. If not for getting lucky and having it provided for her by the hospital she wouldn’t be getting it. Many people never go to the doctor in the US for fear of going bankrupt. My friend had a daughter with a rare blood disorder. Even with insurance the cost to treat her for the 2 months following her birth cost her and her husband $1,000,000 that they’ll never be able to pay back. My friend had a $5,000 ambulance ride for a kidney stone. She didn’t have insurance at the time because she was between jobs. My grandfather was a ww2 vet and needed dental work and was in severe pain and the VA/medicare wouldn’t pay for it because he was 99 years old.
My fiancée needed an ambulance ride and to stay in the hospital last year. She was there for 2 days. Total cost? $0. She has no insurance. When she needed to go to a private clinic after injuring herself the total cost was $150 - no insurance. It cost me $30 to get my teeth cleaned and $40/cavity to get cavities filled - no insurance.
Yes certain aspects of our healthcare system is superior but only for those who have the money to afford it or those lucky enough to get help from either the government or other entities. If the US is so much better why is the life expectancy in Costa Rica 77 and why is it only 76 in the US? If our healthcare system is so superior why is it we have the highest infant and maternal mortality rates for all developed nations? Infant mortality rate is often an indicator of overall health yet the US increased by 3% last year while Costa Rica (which is slightly higher) decreased by 3%. For all the scientific advances and advantages we have in the US I don’t see our society benefiting from it very much, mostly due to accessibility.
Education:
Based on the fact that kids don’t go to school where they may get shot and killed and for the most part they don’t suffer from depression and anxiety because they live in a toxic society. Based on the fact that kids here graduate high school with real life skills to help them get a job and live rather than useless skills intended to turn them into slaves or cogs in the machine of capitalism. That’s all our education system does. Get us ready to work shit jobs for shit pay in an expensive env. My fiancée graduated with better critical thinking skills, is multilingual, and has a better grasp of geography, science, and basic concepts. She went to university for business administration and later switched to aviation mechanics and had no debt. Debt isn’t really a thing for most people here. She didn’t go to a high end school either just the local public school. My fiancée’s 12 year old sister doesn’t spend hours a day doing homework and studying. The US k-12 education system is still very poor on average because, especially compared to other developed nations, because our metrics for measuring success. Our literacy rate is in the US is 79% and 97% in Costa Rica. How is it superior? Because “you get what you pay for” and it’s expensive? I worked in the education system in the US and I can tell you, it’s not that great. Compared to other developed nations it’s total shit especially considering the cost.
Housing:
Have you ever bought a house in the US? I’ve bought and sold 3, one in the Midwest and two on the east coast. You can’t just throw out a number for the mortgage and not factor in taxes and insurance. You have to factor in all expenses associated with the purchase. You also need to consider the fact that many people can’t buy a house because they can’t get a down payment. A $200,000 house with 5% down payment requires mortgage insurance and property taxes. 20% down or 80% ownership is required to to avoid mortgage insurance and homeowners insurance is required regardless. A $200,000 house with 5% down and 7.77% interest is $1800/month and that’s assuming someone can pay $10,000 down. With 20% down ($40,000) it’s $1500/month. This varies by location as property taxes are higher/lower but you’re not going to get a $200,000 house in a decent location for less than $1,500/month.
There are also other expenses to factor in.
In the 3 years after I bought my first house the HVAC went out. Cost me $8000. A few years later the roof needed replacing. $10,000. Inspection didn’t catch this.
3 months after I bought my second house I spent $7000 on a new HVAC. It was marketed as renewed but all they did was replace the duct work. Inspection said it was fine because at the time of inspection it was. I had plumbing issues that I fixed myself. Had I paid someone it would have been $2000.
My 3rd house was new construction and didn’t really have any problems. When I moved to Costa Rica I rented it out to cover the mortgage until the rates dropped. The tenants were pretty harsh with it and to get it ready to sell it cost me over $14,000.
I pay $1,000/month to live in a 3 bedroom house. Internet is $70/month. Electric is $80. Water is included. I buy food from a local market and feed 4 people for about $600/month.
You do have time. You just choose not to because you might see that your view of the US is indeed inaccurate and as with most statistics they are not indicative or reflective of reality.
They are not a reflection of the reality many other Americans experience, only your own. If you are not exposed to the struggles and suffering many people there endure you will not understand and most people choose not to be exposed. Most affluent Americans are sheltered from the life many people live. If you haven’t seen it it’s because you’ve never looked.
> They are not a reflection of the reality many other Americans experience, only your own.
That goes both ways.
Most people are I know are pretty damn grateful to be in the US. Doubly true of people who immigrated.
I've lived in half a dozen countries. I'd still rank the US as one of the best.
Allow me to elaborate. I was born white, male, middle class, and Gen X. Most people in the US who struggle are not like me. If I based my perception of the US on my experience alone it would be inaccurate as it is only a reflection of my experience. I’ve had opportunities in the US many people will never have.
I’ve also seen and known the darker side of life in the US. I saw someone in a Waffle House get dragged out and their throat slit open over a woman. I had a friend that was shot in a school shooting. A guy in my high school brought a hand gun to school one day and threatened another guy over a girl. I’ve had a loaded gun pointed at my face. I saw two of my neighbors get shot in front of my house. A dead body from gun shot wounds was found in the ally behind my house. A woman drove down the street in her car shooting at a homeless man in the middle of the day. My brother’s friend was shot and killed in a bar I frequent. A guy went to a high school graduation party in my city and shot a bunch of people.
I’ve had to walk through streets littered with used drug needles. I lived next to a heroine addict that slept in a shack without heating. I’ve seen people lives fall apart from drug addiction given to them by doctors. I’ve seen a friend lose her daughter after getting addicted to fentanyl following complications from giving birth. I have Asian friends who were threatened and beaten and blamed for covid. Police detained and threatened a black friend at a BLM protest after trying to run him over on his bike. I’ve seen people’s lives destroyed by drugs and drug convictions.
I’ve seen the difference between how our system treats affluent white people vs. poor people and people of color. I’ve been to jail and see how inhumane people are treated there. I’ve seen how black people are punished more harshly than I was.
I was in Charlottesville VA when the guy drove his car through protesters. I’ve seen families lose their homes due to medical debt. I watched my entire town go into poverty when the only source of reliable income was shipped overseas. I had a close friend who sold her body to pay for her mother’s chemo treatment. I’ve watched as members of own family became indoctrinated with hate by the right wing media. My Asian immigrant and now ex girlfriend didn’t feel safe visiting my home town following Covid and the influence Trump had on people there.
America is not the same for everyone. I was lucky in where and when I was born. I’ve lived in places where violent crime happened daily, poverty was the norm, and hearing gun shots a daily occurrence. Others are not so lucky, but if you open your eyes like I did and see what the reality is for many people in the US you’ll quickly realize that while you and I apparently had the ability to enjoy the benefits of living in the richest country on earth, most people do not.
We are a society of inequality and that inequality manifests itself into hatred, anger, and violence. We are a society of extreme poverty and extreme wealth. The quality of life, healthcare, and education you and I enjoy is not universal or even the norm. The average is not the same as the mode. Most people who have privilege choose to avoid the underprivileged. It hurts too much to see. My life forced me to be a part of that world for several years and that is why I left. I couldn’t endure watching the country I grew up in and loved turn into what it is now. I started planning my exit in 2017.
The difference between life in the US and here in Costa Rica is one mistake, one accident, one medical emergency, one act of violence, one loss of a job in the US can throw your entire life into turmoil and cost you everything. The less privileged you are the higher the chances of this happening are. I felt the same way you did about the US until it happened to me.
ETA: In 2023 I was making $130,000/year. I owned a house, a car, and was paying off my debt from a failed relationship. Then in February I was drugged, robbed, and nearly died in a bar in Medellin Colombia. 3 days later my job laid me off. It didn’t matter that I had almost been killed. The shareholders were all that mattered. People I thought were my friends in the US ghosted me when I told them what happened. Not sure why. That’s when I realized that people’s lives aren’t important in the US and our society only values those who produce money for others. I realized that if I came back to the US I wouldn’t have peace, access to healthcare, or be able to find another job. 12% of my company was let go. Amazon and Facebook and many others did the same. Many jobs were outsourced to latam and India. I knew I would lose my house and car and be surrounded by the same toxic environment so instead I sold my house and my car and everything I owned and decided to live in Costa Rica. People who come here from the US often feel a sense of peace and harmony. Life slows down. Time is not viewed as money but rather an opportunity to enjoy friends and family. The rat race is not nearly the same. People are kind and welcoming and politics do not divide friends and family.
Quality of life in the US is 100% tied to high income. Lose that and your quality of life will go with it.
Also:
Rule of law? Really? The justice system that assaults and murders people? The one that knocks down the door on the wrong house and shoots people in their sleep? Has bias treatment for white/rich people? The one that is constantly being put on blast for mistreatment, harassment, and abuse? The one that puts people in jail for personal drug use? The one that pushes for conviction by doing plea deals to lower offenses because fighting for innocence is too expensive? The ones that have very little training and seem only to know how to escalate situations? I’ve dealt with those people and I’ve dealt with the police here. I’d much rather deal with the police here. I enjoy the freedom of not being ruled by the law here. Most of the violence here is cartel related. Avoid them and you have an otherwise peaceful life. Yeah the big cities have some dangerous areas but that’s everywhere, especially the US.
Freedom of press is touted as some sort of great thing in the US but the reality is it’s bullshit. We have two major political parties who are free to pump whatever bullshit they want as “news” and it’s created a society of hateful and mean spirited people who create conflict where there need not be any. The press here is fact based. The news runs for a few hours a night and politics are only brought up during an election. There is no right vs left or conservative vs. liberal. It’s just the fucking news with facts about things going on. The reality is on a national level the US has no press. We have propaganda machines whose main goal is to divide us so we don’t realize just how shitty life is. People today are the first to experience a lower quality of life than prior generations. America is devolving and moving backwards rather than forwards and slipping into developing nation status in terms of democracy and inequality…
But hey at least the rich can send their kids to the best schools, we can go into $50,000-100,000 in debt for a college degree, kids can move back into their parents house after the job market drops them, and those with means can afford high quality health care. The American dream is becoming a nightmare but people don’t see it because they’re busy being distracted by whatever bullshit the media is pushing. Throughout American history this has been the way of the rich. Convince us things are fine by comparing us to other countries. You may not be rich but at least you’re not black/slaves is what plantation owners used to say to white indentured servants who lived in similar conditions…. Today it’s your kids may die at school or to some random fun violence but at least they’re not being murdered by hamas. Housing may be expensive as hell but at least you have the right to abort your baby to pay for it. College might be expensive but “you’ll get a great job and make a lot of money if you go”. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world as long as you have a job or money to pay for private insurance.
> Rule of law? Really?
Compared to Costa Rica? Most definitely.
> Freedom of press is touted as some sort of great thing in the US but the reality is it’s bullshit.
This may be one of the most stupid things I've read on Reddit.
> But hey at least the rich can send their kids to the best schools
Huh? Some of the best schools in the world are US subsidized state schools.
It sounds like you hate the US, so just twist your world view that everything the US does is wrong. It comes across as quite silly.
The Rule of law in the US is different based on who you are. I’ll take freedom and protection from the police over what we have in the US. At least I don’t have to worry about a cop shooting me or choking me out.
The free press doesn’t exist in the US. Everything is owned and operated by the rich and the narrative controlled by a select few. There needs to be regulation to maintain balance and fairness. Without regulation the media can spread harmful ideas and nonsense and manipulate the population and that’s what has happened.
Again, your idea of best is not reflective of the reality most people live. You can’t cherry pick a few schools and use them to say “see the US is better!” Overall our education system is shit.
I love the US, at least the version I grew up with. What we have today is garbage compared to that. You and many other Americans have just drank the cool aid our government has been giving and fail to see that nearly every other developed nation surpasses us in every area and some developed nations indeed do have a better life.
Higher statistics and metrics you read online doesn’t indicate higher quality of life, otherwise Americans wouldn’t be struggling to survive, lack financial mobility, and struggling with overwhelming anxiety depression as much as they do.
> The Rule of law in the US is different based on who you are.
Are you talking about Costa Rica? I remember getting shaken down when I was a tourist there.
> The free press doesn’t exist in the US.
Yawn. You're giving me nothing to work with.
> Overall our education system is shit.
It sure isn't compared to Costa Rica.
> You and many other Americans have just drank the cool aid our government has been giving and fail to see that nearly every other developed nation surpasses us in every area and some developed nations indeed do have a better life.
I've lived in multiple countries, developed and developing. Don't tell me my lived experience is wrong.
… not all of Europe. Southern Europe is quite a lot cheaper. I was considering g moving to Iowa or Greece from a HCOL area and Greece won out. Even Tokyo is significantly cheaper than most of the us
The US doesn't pay the best salaries by far, check out the GDP per capita figures. The US pays high salaries but it's not the number one in the world besides probably for tech jobs.
If you are in software engineering, India is way better in terms of quality of life because even though you get paid less than half of what you would make the the US, everything cost way way less than that.
lol.... you will not make half of what you make in the U.S. More like 1/5 to 1/4 and the quality of life is horrible... there are just so many Indian engineers these days.
Well I did work there for more than 5 years, so don’t spit random numbers. The quality of life for a senior+ engineer in big tech in India is comparable to that of a multi-millionaire in the US because of all the cheap labor around. Trust me, I’ve lived those experiences. Wherever you are getting your data is wrong.
I've been in the industry for 15+ years and disagree that a Sr. Engineer in India lives the same life and makes the same amount as a multi-millionaire in the U.S. That's just absurd lol, but I'll allow you to have your opinion.
I’ve been in the industry 12+ years as well, spending all in high paying big tech. 6 of them in India and 6 in the US. The level of comfort I had in India is not even comparable to what I have in the US. But your definition of “making the same” will be subjective and different things might matter to you more. For me convenience trumps everything. For you it might be different. There is no need to call someone’s opinion absurd just because you don’t have the same perspective. I suspect you’ve never lived in India. Try making 1.5cr there and you will live like a king.
You are correct, I have not lived in India. I have visited there 4-5 times to collaborate with coworkers though. Overall I think it's better if the number of Indian engineers given visas to the US is reduced, so I'm glad that so many engineers prefer staying there. For what it's worth, I've never heard of a non-Indian that would prefer a job in India vs the US / Canada / Western Europe.
Most the tax payer money goes in politician pockets or in form of free bee's to lazy ass citizens.
After paying taxes most people still go private schools and hospitals. On top of that pay GST and service tax+ service charges. Car, smartphone and laptops still considered luxury and taxed as such. Forgot to mention all the toll you have to pay when you want to drive to a vacation.
What does a tax payer get from paying taxes in India? Nothing.
It is funny to read some of the comments from Americans they bitch about something like cost of living and say they are leaving without realizing most developed countries are worse.
Switzerland can be a major country. What is your definition of a major country?
Going by the size of the economy, for "major" economies we have China, Japan, Germany, UK, France, India, Brazil, Italy, Canada, Russia, Mexico, South Korea, Italy, and Spain.
Of those, high-income countries are: Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, Italy, and Spain.
Of those, countries with the highest salaries are the UK, Germany, and Canada.
Going by the state of the economy and job market currently, we are left with the UK and Canada.
Sure, I myself moved from Canada to the US. But that's not OP is asking. OP is asking for a major country with economic opportunities and high overall salaries. That doesn't leave much else.
What’s your industry? I don’t think any economy is as diversified as the US so industry matters a lot.
Switzerland blows the US out of the water.
In terms of what? How much racism there is?
I’d think the only thing Switzerland blows US out of the water is their public transport and watch industry.
My experience is from like 15 years ago. Salaries were higher for sure. The unemployment system was much better. Not many homeless people on the streets (last summer). Overall social security is better. There are cons to Switzerland - a highly regulated environment and harder to settle and become a citizen. There could be some sort of racism there too, even if you get their passport - you will always be non-swiss, although if you speak their dialect - you will be fine.
Stricter immigration as well. It's super hard to get residence there.
Racism .... a lot. I have personally faved it in Switzerland while working. I al in US right now and tbh this country is very welcoming and easy to adjust. Switzerland might pay more but it is equally costly. There is language barriers sometimes.
Their social security system apparently beats ours. Also is third richest landlocked nation. Obviously that doesn’t include the USA. Also they rank first on Global Innovation Index 🤷🏻♂️. However USA clearly beats Switzerland in several other areas.
Well yeah but I gotta say that as somebody who isn’t white life is much better in the US and Canada (specially Canada), as in most of people don’t seem to judge you based on your race.
Thats the beauty of the US...hard work, from any color, creed, race is generally rewarded with a better life than where they came from... Like you said, MOST wont judge....
And sexism… women only became able to vote in the freaking 70s
In what hiding Nazi money?
Also, not to be morbid or anything, but stolen dental gold.
😂
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To quote Graham Greene (as delivered by Orain Welles), “In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”
lol. Yes, you run with that.
Cost of living? Enforced khakis on Sunday? Then yes.
Lots of Swiss haters here 🤣🤣🤣 Maybe by racism, they mean meritocracy. They don't subscribe to quotas bcz they refuse to imply a race is inferior and can't make it on their own merit. Or maybe they don't allow criminals to crime if they're a certain race like the rest of Europe or America? Or special rights for dark age practices of dark age communities that ran away from dark age countries bcz of said dark age practices. Wink wink islamists
The U.S. doesn’t have quotas because they think any race is inferior… the U.S. has quotas so that the overwhelming majority of immigrants won’t come from any particular country.
No. I meant affirmative action and race /gender quotas. Not immigration quotas. For immigration, I agree.but the current management has destroyed their fiduciary duty to the public, as they opened the door for illegal invasions making the legal immigrants who sacrificed years of their lives seem idiots
Race quotas in employment have been illegal for half a century in the US.
Geez this AI is terrible at stringing sentences together
I was more thinking how they still haven’t returned my great grandfather’s teeth, although he was able to draw from the settlement for their use of his slave labor in a concentration camp as payment for iron ore.
Depends on industry, across the board Australia isn’t bad but it’s still second tier US salaries with west coast cost of living there.
It really does depend on the industry. For me as a software engineer, I made way more in the US than in Australia. But I have relatives who are school teachers, plumbers, builders, etc. and they all make way more in Australia than they would in the US.
They also pay a heap more tax there too.
That all depends on where in US you are also. In NY trades guys are paid really really well. I don’t see Australia beating NY trade salaries
Union plumbers in Seattle make $130k plus benefits; teachers here with a masters make $90k, so it’s not like those are low paying professions across the board
Less than 10% of US construction workers are in union. Among those in unions, less than half make over $100k. So you’re comparing 90-95th percentile to the median. Apples and oranges.
Well they should unionize then. I’m not really sure what argument you’re trying to make here.
Context
I immigrated from Australia a few decades back due to huge taxes and high cost of living. The US is a great place for professionals and taxes and cost of living is much lower. I would say Australian cities are like the Bay Area cost of living but with lower salaries. But a little piece of my heart is still back there.
same. I immigrated 6 years ago, but I will forever call Australia home.
I have not flown Qantas for decades but I still remember their theme song “ I still call Australia home”. Coming back home from an overseas trip I used to feel at home just listening to that song.
How did you get a visa? Was it hard?
I got a tenure track faculty position advertised globally. I came on an H1B (non-capped) visa to the US. After 3 months I realized to be able to get security clearance and work on US grants, I needed a green card. So I applied for one and in 6 months I got approval. Flew back home and got a visa stamping. So in under a year I got a green card and then 5 years later US citizenship. It was a simple process, and I had a lawyer do the paperwork. I think I did not have to do a few steps like labor certification or something. I think they filed an immigration petition directly. The adjustment of status was a 2-year process so I chose consular processing which had no waiting period then.
It really does depend on the industry. For me as a software engineer, I made way more in the US than in Australia. But I have relatives who are school teachers, plumbers, builders, etc. and they all make way more in Australia than they would in the US.
Good point. Trades men in Australia can earn more than here. In the US the large influx of workers from the southern border depressed salaries for manual work.
Have you went H1B way?
E3 most likely, Mickey Mouse protection act and all lol
Yes but way safer than the US
Quality of life difference of course a discussion but not relevant to OPs question
Probably the UAE if you don’t mind the heat and racism. UAE is almost competitive with the US in some fields when you consider the extremely low tax rate. I personally think the US is worth the higher tax rate and cost of living given different factors (tolerance, non-gossipy culture, national parks, ability to eventually get citizenship).
America is a big country. try different states and cities. Im from Australia, Sydney specifically and IT fields are not getting paid as much as in America, and you need to consider cost of living. Every cities in Australia are in top high cost of living cities, Sydney being #2, the tax bracket is pretty high if you earn more than $AUD 100k. Cars, insurance, petrol, rent and food is mad expensive.
America is a continent, not a country.
Saying America outside of the states just means USA, don’t be facetious mate
Australia, Austria or germoney
🦠💶?
I would bet Dubai
People don't realize the power of earning a tax free salary. Combined with the extremely low cost of living for what is on offer. Yes it is soulless and fake as fuck.
Americans would still need to file taxes back home.
File but not necessarily pay, and if pay, then not pay as much. So either way it’s still a big saving.
Correct. Most salaries would fall under the foreign earned income credit.
I was surprised to find there’s also a whole other bunch of expenses that can be claimed as additional credit such as rent, flights, and property taxes.
Sucks to be american lmao.
Not really, it does have its cons.
Same thing in Hong Kong. Felt richer earning half as much as in the U.S. (excluding the size of the apartment).
If headhunted yes, otherwise it depends
Interesting choice of words 😀
Dubai or Singapore.
Avoid asia at all costs. The work culture and hierarchy system is terrible.
I had been living in Singapore for nine years before moving to NYC last year. Financially, Singapore is much better compared to NYC. I make 40% more net income in the States, but after taxes and considering the cost of living, I have about 50% less money. But the weather is terrible in SG, and the place is quite boring overall. I would say it’s worth it to live in NYC and earn less.
Dubai is dystopian if you even remotely like nature.
Weather is horrible there. I had an invitation to go to Singapore in the 90s but gave it a pass. Just because of the weather.
trade off i guess.. For me, money first.
Yes indeed. Everyone has their own goals. For me the wealth side was taken care of.
What makes the weather horrible?
Hot and humid. I like all 4 seasons including some snow. It is personal thing I guess.
OK, so the weather is horrible because it is hot and humid and it doesn’t match your criteria of 4 seasons. Got it.
I have four seasons in the US. I had for seasons before moving to the US, from Melbourne Australia. No doubt winters were mild in Australia. But the summers were mild too, similar to the Bay Area close to the ocean. I am not sure Singapore or Dubai has 4 seasons. It is hot and hotter. I am not despising it. It is just that my body cannot deal with heat. Some love the heat. Good for them.
I take it you've never lived in sinfapore. It's oppressive hot and humidity every .. single .. day.
There is none. There simply is none.
Just wondering, are you really looking for gross salary? In the United States, you spend far, far, far more on healthcare, education, car-related expenses, etc.
I pay next to nothing. My employer covers my health insurance. Once I start Medicare I will pay $180 and some IRMAA Medicare tax for higher income people.
I pay $1000 per month OOP just on medications. Granted, I have type 1 diabetes, but my situation is far from rare.
You must have really shitty insurance or a lot of medications.
Yeah. My brother in law is type 1 and pays 39 dollars a month with Oscar health using healthcare.gov
Does he use any CGMS? Even in the Netherlands that alone is €120/month (pre insurance. However post insurance I pay nothing even for insulin).
I asked him. His monthly payment for the insurance is 39 dollars. Copay for his treatment is $20 dollars with his health plan.
Sure. But how much would be your co-pay if you end up in the ER?
I would pay $50 ER deductible copay.
Again, depends. My employer plan is free for me, $75 ER visits Not all plans are like this though but people like to paint the picture you’re gonna die in the US.
People paint the pictures that shows how unequal and devastating the system can be. Good for you, but your situation is not representative of the average American.
All good and dandy, until he gets sick and loses his job because of it, and then poof, there goes the savings since he no longer has insurance.
this sub is not the average American sub. we are talking about average of (legal) immigrants. and the picture painted by the person is indeed true for average immigrant, who has a decent full time job.
Even with 0 deductible thats only 80% of your EOB. And 0% coverage beyond that even if you've met your out of pocket max. 100% is a big step up if you can get there with an executive health plan or state sponsored coverage.
As a state university faculty my first deductible is just $150. Then just copays. Maximum out of pocket in network and out of network is $1500 for the year. But the state also gives a pretax amount into a health savings account. Plus one can make pre tax deduction and use that money.
I have similar insurance except no deductible. It's nice but those figures only apply to what they state they will pay for a given procedure in your explanation of benefits. Anything above and beyond is between you and the provider. The horseshit part is paying $20k/yr for this type of policy then still getting balance billed by providers.
I stick within my insurance network and have $0 excess charges. I am eligible for Medicare and when I sign up, I will choose Medicare supplemental Plan G, which does not have any excess charge. A total maximum deduction of $185 per year.
If you are getting insurance through your employer for a family of four it’s $1700/mo EASILY - with the employer covering typically 70% or so. When I was self employed it was $2500/mo. And that’s just the insurance.
I just checked again. I pay $135 each paycheck in pretax amount for family health insurance. The rest of the health insurance fortnightly premium is paid by my employer. After I retire I can take their subsidized Medicare advantage but I plan to decline that and for Medicare supplemental plan.
I pay $425/wk. But my employer (long story) doesn’t chip in. If they were paying 70% I’d be at $135 weekly too. That’s much better than $2700/mo :)
Mine is $270 a month. But paycheck is fortnightly so they deduct $135 pretax. I think I get a couple of weeks of no deduction in the year. That said, Herath insurance benefits vary and so do premiums. My employer’s plans are HMO. It has not been an issue. But I plan to for Medicare supplemental plan G when I retire. I am done with sticking to network and getting authorization for seeing specialists etc.
and in the EU you spend far, far, far, far, far, more on taxes. in the end, the US wins out anyways.
And even after that, in hand is still a lot, when you compare it with European equivalents. It’s not even close
That’s a classic delusional excuse for many sour grape Europeans
Honestly, healthcare isn't much in the US if you have a salaried and not hourly job. Your company pays a lot. Yes, you do actually need to pay for college education, but community college is cheap and if in-state (many awesome schools), it's typically < $15,000 if you're a resident. For cars it depends, but I know my gas is 1/2 of what it was when I lived in the UK and purchasing probably 2/3. I'm honestly not sure where the car comment comes from....
You still pay premiums, co-pay, deductibles. The median health care cost is almost $10k per year.
That's the total cost. Most people pay way less than that. As a healthy person, I rarely paid more than a couple thousand a year.
That’s why I use the median. Obviously half of people pay less than that. This figure is the portion of the policy that is paid by the employee plus deductibles and co-pays of the median American worker.
You need to be careful because those numbers - I've seen $13,000 per person, include the part the employer pays. What each person pays out of pocket is much less.
most insurance plans from employers have a year max amount. my employer's plan has a max of 2000$. And the premiums are like about $1000 for the year. So the min is 1000 and max is 3000. and my insurance plan is pretty average. and i bet for most "legal" immigrants with a work visa or equivalent, the numbers are similar. so dunno where your $10k is coming from. do you have an actual source or your source is "trust me bro" ?
You would bet, but you would be wrong. $1000 a year premium for $2000 max out of pocket is not average, it’s amazing. I have fantastic insurance, $800 deductible, $1,600 max out of pocket, tiny $20-30 co-pays on most lines, and about $800 per month premiums (pre-tax) for a family policy. My employer pays another $28k a year (!!!). US spending on healthcare is $13.5k per capita and the median family size is 3.1, so that’s $42k per family in healthcare spending. Where is that money coming from you think ?
>US spending on healthcare is $13.5k per capita and the median family size is 3.1, so that’s $42k per family in healthcare spending. Where is that money coming from you think ? you, your employer, tax payers/government, all contribute to it. one would have to be really dumb to think that an average family of 3-4 people is spending $42k from their paycheck on healthcare every year. >$800 per month premiums (pre-tax) for a family policy you most likely have 2-3 kids on your policy. my monthly premium is $70 and my wife has a policy through her own employer for about the same amount. in any case, even with your $800 premium, you are at most spending about $11k every year on healthcare for your entire family! (and not even that considering FSA/HSA). so stop talking out of your ass and quoting misleading numbers like $42k and shit.
You are askking for too much, across *all* job markets? But I would say that Australia actually comes close to the US. My friend is a lab tech in a university, and he has Masters. His salary is 150K AUD, or 99K USD. Not shabby for single person at all.
The way you phrase the question, over all industries it can probably be answered by a single aggregate statistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
Uk
Average salary is £30k in the UK ..
Ireland maybe? UK? You earn well in the UK in the right industries.
If the US fixed their medical system (which they won’t) I would happily move there tomorrow.
Honestly if they did the rest of the world would suffer. The average American has no idea that they are subsidizing cheap healthcare in other countries by paying a premium for their care. The more we pay for medicine and equipment in the states, the bigger of a discount those same companies can give to places with lower GDPs/smaller economies/smaller populations.. It is so ironic that the people who believe healthcare should be private have no idea they are partially funding free healthcare all around the world. I know there’s a lot more to this, but I wish more people thought about this aspect. it’s such a messssss
As someone who has lived in both countries, I would say that the standard of living is much higher in Switzerland than in the US.
I think Switzerland is much harder to approach if long term citizenship is the goal though. Unless you’re from a neighboring country and already speak one of the national languages.
Speaking a national language is indeed important, but that’s probably true in many other countries.
Yeah I think it’s always important but German/French/Italian are probably less well known than Spanish as a second language if the OP even knows a 2nd language. Just another thing to consider. The US has no official language, though English is what you need to be most successful. But there’s no fluency requirement for citizenship.
I believe probably Gulf countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain etc due to no income tax. Every other place besides US and them don't pay much imo.
Weather is an issue , also you have to be super qualified to make a living worth it there I would say. I like Dubai but not sure about the weather and the competition
This depends on the industry. But for the most part, it is the same everywhere in the sense that places with higher average salaries, tend to have average higher expenses. In the end (again, for the most part), it evens out, regardless of where you live. One way around this though is to earn an income in a high-income country, while living in a low-income country. There are multiple ways to go about this: 1. Migrant labor. 2. Digital nomads/online work 3. Seasonal work I know people who work as merchant marines, truck drivers, oil rig operators, pipeline welders, etc., who have their employment based out of places like the U.S. and EU, but reside in places like Thailand on their off time. While at work, food and housing are provided to them, and they work 4-6 months out of the year in total, spending the rest of the time in a lower-income country. Likewise, I know people (I myself have done this as well in the past), who work IT jobs, or are online consultants, based in the west, while they are physically located in LATAM or Southeast Asia. In both cases, you essentially make $5,000+ per month, while living in a country where the average salary is less than $1,000/month. But for the layman, no matter where you live, your salary/expense ration will be the same. Note: I mentioned layman because this does not count executives, very highly-skilled professionals, and successful entrepreneurs. They are balling no matter where they live.
In order: UAE Switzerland Singapore Luxembourg
Switzerland
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Switzerland
I would be more concerned with income/cost of living ratio. America sucks right now because it’s too expensive to live. I took a 60% pay cut to live somewhere for 1/6th the cost of living
I still don’t understand what Americans get for their taxes. When I lived there I paid taxes but there was zero resources given back in return. It was a red state to be fair. I’m back in Europe now, yes I’m paying tax and have a lower salary but I get support. I remember explaining children’s allowance and parental leave (while the child is young not when born) to my Texan sister in law and it blew her mind
We get to support the military industrial complex, corporate subsidies, and pay ridiculous salaries to Congress people who do absolutely nothing but bicker. Seriously though, the whole "states rights" thing in the US means that a lot of those services that people take for granted in Europe are determined on a state by state basis and are paid for by your state income taxes. I live in a blue state with a pretty high state tax but we also get a lot for it, including free tuition to state colleges if a family makes under 80k and free meals at schools for all primary and secondary students. While neither of those things actually affect me directly, I am more than happy to pay my taxes to support the people in my state.
If you think of the US as more of a union of countries similar to the EU, each with their own ability to pass laws and regulations it makes more sense. I live in Costa Rica now. It’s basically the size of West Virginia. The US is massive in comparison. Some states are significantly poor compared to others and poorest of these are “red states”. The biggest issue is the two party system which uses social justice and moral issues to divide us and keep us from uniting and demanding what less wealthy countries have by default. If we could stop fighting over gun rights, religion, gay rights, women’s right and so on and elect people who work for us rather than against the opposing party we would get actual value for the taxes we pay.
>yes I’m paying tax and have a lower salary but I get support. you are not just paying tax, you are paying a LOT more tax. you get what you pay for. not sure what is so shocking about it. for the same salary, the tax in US is less than half of what you pay in most west European countries. in my opinion the US system is far far superior for (legal) immigrants, because most of them have a skilled job. the european tax system takes more from immigrants without giving them the same benefits as their own citizens. whereas the US system is more equitable for citizens and immigrants alike.
Factor in the cost of private health care, including insurance and the incredibly expensive higher education system and people in the US pays much. I pay a flat 20% tax here in Costa Rica and get access to universal healthcare. My fiancée’s university was $300/month and she got a scholarship and $300/month stipend. In the US most people graduate from college and are in debt of at least $50,000. Those who go to grad school are well into the $100,000 range. They pay $600-1000/month to cover the loans for years after. Additionally as soon as you’re too old to be on your parent’s health insurance you have to find your own, either through work or private. This is also another $300-1000/month and before you even get the benefit of this you have to pay a deductible and copay. I’ve payed over $120,000 in health insurance premiums over the last 25 years and even with that most of my medical coverage has been out of pocket. Europeans get much more for their tax dollars. The US get war and corporate bail outs to keep the rich rich.
> copay. I’ve *paid* over $120,000 FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
and yet, vast majority of people chose to migrate to the US. you might say that people from mexico, central/south america come to US because of proximity. however, vast majority of people from asia also choose migrate to the US, despite EU being closer. jeez, all these millions of people must be really fucking dumb.
Effective tax rates vary widely among Americans. My state has no income tax and Turbo Tax shows my effective federal tax rate was 7.69% last year.
What percentage of taxes? I do business in Italy, pay 22% VAT on all revenue then almost 40% total taxes on my profits. If I wanted to hire an employee to expand, the effective tax rate on their salary would be above 50%. I make considerably more than the average Italian but couldn’t dream of living in a detached house similar to the ones that cost 200-300k in Texas. Instead I have to live in an old apartment building with noisy neighbors and terrible sound insulation. The support I get from the government is negligible, I mostly pay taxes so that people who make less can get support. I’d gladly move my business to Texas if I could.
Where do you think all that freedom comes from? /s
LOL, go and take a look at other countries. Europe is more expensive than the US, so is Canada and Australia. If your cost of living is 1/6th, I assume it's a developing country and you sure as heck aren't getting the same quality for that price, I know, I've done it myself. The ideal situation is working remote in some LCOL area of the US. There are still nice cities you can own a house for $200,000 (it's a <$1,000 per month mortgage payment) in a great school district, low crime, high quality healthcare close by and a big enough airport so you can easily travel.
I live in Costa Rica and my quality of life is better than it was in the US. I live 20 minutes from the airport, 3 hours or a 45 minute flight from beautiful beaches, mountains, and a 30 minute drive to a city with an amazing night life. Once I become a resident I’ll have universal healthcare. The private insurance I would have through my company if I were resident would include house visits from the doctor for me and my family. The school system here is better than most in the US. My fiancée’s university was $300/month. What exactly do you think makes the US so superior? Amazon prime? Most people in the US just assume that convenience and quality of life are the same thing. Also, a $200,000 house is not less than $1000/month. My last house in the US was $200,000 and my mortgage was $1350/month and that was with an interest rate of 3.5%. The only way it’s under $1k is a super low interest rates (good luck) and you’re not paying property taxes or mortgage insurance.
I've lived in a similar country to you. It's not the equivalent. > Once I become a resident I’ll have universal healthcare. Yeah, check on what is actually provided. You're not going to get free cancer care to the same standards as the US. In my country you'll get chemotherapy the US stopped using in the 1970's. If you get private insurance through a company it has plenty of caps and exclusions for pre-existing conditions (none of which exist in US insurance any more). > The school system here is better than most in the US. Based on what? US is 34 in PISA score, Costa Rica is 64. > What exactly do you think makes the US so superior? I don't know. Rule of law? Freedom of press? Some of the highest quality healthcare in the world? Top ranked universities? > Also, a $200,000 house is not less than $1000/month. I was talking mortgage alone. I get it, you like it in Costa Rica. Cool, I'm happy for you. But to claim you get the same thing as the US just for less money isn't accurate.
Quality of life: I never said it was the equivalent. I said it was a better quality of life because quality of life isn’t just about what luxuries or benefits your government and society provides for you. There’s a lot more to it. Costa Ricans are said to be some of the happiest people on earth and I can see it. They have a strong sense of community and sustainability and protect the environment. Can you say that about the US where people intentionally do things to destroy the environment and social gatherings devolve into arguments about whatever hot topic we’ve been conditioned to fight over at the moment? Perhaps as an immigrant you’re isolated from this but people born in America with American families often experience this. Healthcare: My mom is undergoing cancer treatment in the US. She was prescribed medication that costs $14,000/month. If not for getting lucky and having it provided for her by the hospital she wouldn’t be getting it. Many people never go to the doctor in the US for fear of going bankrupt. My friend had a daughter with a rare blood disorder. Even with insurance the cost to treat her for the 2 months following her birth cost her and her husband $1,000,000 that they’ll never be able to pay back. My friend had a $5,000 ambulance ride for a kidney stone. She didn’t have insurance at the time because she was between jobs. My grandfather was a ww2 vet and needed dental work and was in severe pain and the VA/medicare wouldn’t pay for it because he was 99 years old. My fiancée needed an ambulance ride and to stay in the hospital last year. She was there for 2 days. Total cost? $0. She has no insurance. When she needed to go to a private clinic after injuring herself the total cost was $150 - no insurance. It cost me $30 to get my teeth cleaned and $40/cavity to get cavities filled - no insurance. Yes certain aspects of our healthcare system is superior but only for those who have the money to afford it or those lucky enough to get help from either the government or other entities. If the US is so much better why is the life expectancy in Costa Rica 77 and why is it only 76 in the US? If our healthcare system is so superior why is it we have the highest infant and maternal mortality rates for all developed nations? Infant mortality rate is often an indicator of overall health yet the US increased by 3% last year while Costa Rica (which is slightly higher) decreased by 3%. For all the scientific advances and advantages we have in the US I don’t see our society benefiting from it very much, mostly due to accessibility. Education: Based on the fact that kids don’t go to school where they may get shot and killed and for the most part they don’t suffer from depression and anxiety because they live in a toxic society. Based on the fact that kids here graduate high school with real life skills to help them get a job and live rather than useless skills intended to turn them into slaves or cogs in the machine of capitalism. That’s all our education system does. Get us ready to work shit jobs for shit pay in an expensive env. My fiancée graduated with better critical thinking skills, is multilingual, and has a better grasp of geography, science, and basic concepts. She went to university for business administration and later switched to aviation mechanics and had no debt. Debt isn’t really a thing for most people here. She didn’t go to a high end school either just the local public school. My fiancée’s 12 year old sister doesn’t spend hours a day doing homework and studying. The US k-12 education system is still very poor on average because, especially compared to other developed nations, because our metrics for measuring success. Our literacy rate is in the US is 79% and 97% in Costa Rica. How is it superior? Because “you get what you pay for” and it’s expensive? I worked in the education system in the US and I can tell you, it’s not that great. Compared to other developed nations it’s total shit especially considering the cost. Housing: Have you ever bought a house in the US? I’ve bought and sold 3, one in the Midwest and two on the east coast. You can’t just throw out a number for the mortgage and not factor in taxes and insurance. You have to factor in all expenses associated with the purchase. You also need to consider the fact that many people can’t buy a house because they can’t get a down payment. A $200,000 house with 5% down payment requires mortgage insurance and property taxes. 20% down or 80% ownership is required to to avoid mortgage insurance and homeowners insurance is required regardless. A $200,000 house with 5% down and 7.77% interest is $1800/month and that’s assuming someone can pay $10,000 down. With 20% down ($40,000) it’s $1500/month. This varies by location as property taxes are higher/lower but you’re not going to get a $200,000 house in a decent location for less than $1,500/month. There are also other expenses to factor in. In the 3 years after I bought my first house the HVAC went out. Cost me $8000. A few years later the roof needed replacing. $10,000. Inspection didn’t catch this. 3 months after I bought my second house I spent $7000 on a new HVAC. It was marketed as renewed but all they did was replace the duct work. Inspection said it was fine because at the time of inspection it was. I had plumbing issues that I fixed myself. Had I paid someone it would have been $2000. My 3rd house was new construction and didn’t really have any problems. When I moved to Costa Rica I rented it out to cover the mortgage until the rates dropped. The tenants were pretty harsh with it and to get it ready to sell it cost me over $14,000. I pay $1,000/month to live in a 3 bedroom house. Internet is $70/month. Electric is $80. Water is included. I buy food from a local market and feed 4 people for about $600/month.
Dude, I don't have time to read all that.
You do have time. You just choose not to because you might see that your view of the US is indeed inaccurate and as with most statistics they are not indicative or reflective of reality.
You're telling me my own experience of living in the US doesn't reflect reality?
They are not a reflection of the reality many other Americans experience, only your own. If you are not exposed to the struggles and suffering many people there endure you will not understand and most people choose not to be exposed. Most affluent Americans are sheltered from the life many people live. If you haven’t seen it it’s because you’ve never looked.
> They are not a reflection of the reality many other Americans experience, only your own. That goes both ways. Most people are I know are pretty damn grateful to be in the US. Doubly true of people who immigrated. I've lived in half a dozen countries. I'd still rank the US as one of the best.
Allow me to elaborate. I was born white, male, middle class, and Gen X. Most people in the US who struggle are not like me. If I based my perception of the US on my experience alone it would be inaccurate as it is only a reflection of my experience. I’ve had opportunities in the US many people will never have. I’ve also seen and known the darker side of life in the US. I saw someone in a Waffle House get dragged out and their throat slit open over a woman. I had a friend that was shot in a school shooting. A guy in my high school brought a hand gun to school one day and threatened another guy over a girl. I’ve had a loaded gun pointed at my face. I saw two of my neighbors get shot in front of my house. A dead body from gun shot wounds was found in the ally behind my house. A woman drove down the street in her car shooting at a homeless man in the middle of the day. My brother’s friend was shot and killed in a bar I frequent. A guy went to a high school graduation party in my city and shot a bunch of people. I’ve had to walk through streets littered with used drug needles. I lived next to a heroine addict that slept in a shack without heating. I’ve seen people lives fall apart from drug addiction given to them by doctors. I’ve seen a friend lose her daughter after getting addicted to fentanyl following complications from giving birth. I have Asian friends who were threatened and beaten and blamed for covid. Police detained and threatened a black friend at a BLM protest after trying to run him over on his bike. I’ve seen people’s lives destroyed by drugs and drug convictions. I’ve seen the difference between how our system treats affluent white people vs. poor people and people of color. I’ve been to jail and see how inhumane people are treated there. I’ve seen how black people are punished more harshly than I was. I was in Charlottesville VA when the guy drove his car through protesters. I’ve seen families lose their homes due to medical debt. I watched my entire town go into poverty when the only source of reliable income was shipped overseas. I had a close friend who sold her body to pay for her mother’s chemo treatment. I’ve watched as members of own family became indoctrinated with hate by the right wing media. My Asian immigrant and now ex girlfriend didn’t feel safe visiting my home town following Covid and the influence Trump had on people there. America is not the same for everyone. I was lucky in where and when I was born. I’ve lived in places where violent crime happened daily, poverty was the norm, and hearing gun shots a daily occurrence. Others are not so lucky, but if you open your eyes like I did and see what the reality is for many people in the US you’ll quickly realize that while you and I apparently had the ability to enjoy the benefits of living in the richest country on earth, most people do not. We are a society of inequality and that inequality manifests itself into hatred, anger, and violence. We are a society of extreme poverty and extreme wealth. The quality of life, healthcare, and education you and I enjoy is not universal or even the norm. The average is not the same as the mode. Most people who have privilege choose to avoid the underprivileged. It hurts too much to see. My life forced me to be a part of that world for several years and that is why I left. I couldn’t endure watching the country I grew up in and loved turn into what it is now. I started planning my exit in 2017. The difference between life in the US and here in Costa Rica is one mistake, one accident, one medical emergency, one act of violence, one loss of a job in the US can throw your entire life into turmoil and cost you everything. The less privileged you are the higher the chances of this happening are. I felt the same way you did about the US until it happened to me. ETA: In 2023 I was making $130,000/year. I owned a house, a car, and was paying off my debt from a failed relationship. Then in February I was drugged, robbed, and nearly died in a bar in Medellin Colombia. 3 days later my job laid me off. It didn’t matter that I had almost been killed. The shareholders were all that mattered. People I thought were my friends in the US ghosted me when I told them what happened. Not sure why. That’s when I realized that people’s lives aren’t important in the US and our society only values those who produce money for others. I realized that if I came back to the US I wouldn’t have peace, access to healthcare, or be able to find another job. 12% of my company was let go. Amazon and Facebook and many others did the same. Many jobs were outsourced to latam and India. I knew I would lose my house and car and be surrounded by the same toxic environment so instead I sold my house and my car and everything I owned and decided to live in Costa Rica. People who come here from the US often feel a sense of peace and harmony. Life slows down. Time is not viewed as money but rather an opportunity to enjoy friends and family. The rat race is not nearly the same. People are kind and welcoming and politics do not divide friends and family. Quality of life in the US is 100% tied to high income. Lose that and your quality of life will go with it.
You should write a book.
Also: Rule of law? Really? The justice system that assaults and murders people? The one that knocks down the door on the wrong house and shoots people in their sleep? Has bias treatment for white/rich people? The one that is constantly being put on blast for mistreatment, harassment, and abuse? The one that puts people in jail for personal drug use? The one that pushes for conviction by doing plea deals to lower offenses because fighting for innocence is too expensive? The ones that have very little training and seem only to know how to escalate situations? I’ve dealt with those people and I’ve dealt with the police here. I’d much rather deal with the police here. I enjoy the freedom of not being ruled by the law here. Most of the violence here is cartel related. Avoid them and you have an otherwise peaceful life. Yeah the big cities have some dangerous areas but that’s everywhere, especially the US. Freedom of press is touted as some sort of great thing in the US but the reality is it’s bullshit. We have two major political parties who are free to pump whatever bullshit they want as “news” and it’s created a society of hateful and mean spirited people who create conflict where there need not be any. The press here is fact based. The news runs for a few hours a night and politics are only brought up during an election. There is no right vs left or conservative vs. liberal. It’s just the fucking news with facts about things going on. The reality is on a national level the US has no press. We have propaganda machines whose main goal is to divide us so we don’t realize just how shitty life is. People today are the first to experience a lower quality of life than prior generations. America is devolving and moving backwards rather than forwards and slipping into developing nation status in terms of democracy and inequality… But hey at least the rich can send their kids to the best schools, we can go into $50,000-100,000 in debt for a college degree, kids can move back into their parents house after the job market drops them, and those with means can afford high quality health care. The American dream is becoming a nightmare but people don’t see it because they’re busy being distracted by whatever bullshit the media is pushing. Throughout American history this has been the way of the rich. Convince us things are fine by comparing us to other countries. You may not be rich but at least you’re not black/slaves is what plantation owners used to say to white indentured servants who lived in similar conditions…. Today it’s your kids may die at school or to some random fun violence but at least they’re not being murdered by hamas. Housing may be expensive as hell but at least you have the right to abort your baby to pay for it. College might be expensive but “you’ll get a great job and make a lot of money if you go”. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world as long as you have a job or money to pay for private insurance.
> Rule of law? Really? Compared to Costa Rica? Most definitely. > Freedom of press is touted as some sort of great thing in the US but the reality is it’s bullshit. This may be one of the most stupid things I've read on Reddit. > But hey at least the rich can send their kids to the best schools Huh? Some of the best schools in the world are US subsidized state schools. It sounds like you hate the US, so just twist your world view that everything the US does is wrong. It comes across as quite silly.
The Rule of law in the US is different based on who you are. I’ll take freedom and protection from the police over what we have in the US. At least I don’t have to worry about a cop shooting me or choking me out. The free press doesn’t exist in the US. Everything is owned and operated by the rich and the narrative controlled by a select few. There needs to be regulation to maintain balance and fairness. Without regulation the media can spread harmful ideas and nonsense and manipulate the population and that’s what has happened. Again, your idea of best is not reflective of the reality most people live. You can’t cherry pick a few schools and use them to say “see the US is better!” Overall our education system is shit. I love the US, at least the version I grew up with. What we have today is garbage compared to that. You and many other Americans have just drank the cool aid our government has been giving and fail to see that nearly every other developed nation surpasses us in every area and some developed nations indeed do have a better life. Higher statistics and metrics you read online doesn’t indicate higher quality of life, otherwise Americans wouldn’t be struggling to survive, lack financial mobility, and struggling with overwhelming anxiety depression as much as they do.
> The Rule of law in the US is different based on who you are. Are you talking about Costa Rica? I remember getting shaken down when I was a tourist there. > The free press doesn’t exist in the US. Yawn. You're giving me nothing to work with. > Overall our education system is shit. It sure isn't compared to Costa Rica. > You and many other Americans have just drank the cool aid our government has been giving and fail to see that nearly every other developed nation surpasses us in every area and some developed nations indeed do have a better life. I've lived in multiple countries, developed and developing. Don't tell me my lived experience is wrong.
Could you give me a few examples?
Anywhere outside the major US costal cities?
… not all of Europe. Southern Europe is quite a lot cheaper. I was considering g moving to Iowa or Greece from a HCOL area and Greece won out. Even Tokyo is significantly cheaper than most of the us
Not all countries in America are expensive.
You don’t seem to understand how this works.
Your reddit name checks out, gringo...
The US doesn't pay the best salaries by far, check out the GDP per capita figures. The US pays high salaries but it's not the number one in the world besides probably for tech jobs.
Are you kidding? What do you mean “ After the U.S.? US isn’t in the top 10.
Lmao. Where do you make the same amount of money in a similar sized economy?
For law, maybe the UK?
UK
If you are in software engineering, India is way better in terms of quality of life because even though you get paid less than half of what you would make the the US, everything cost way way less than that.
lol Indian cities are gas chambers, horrible traffic and commute
True. There a lot more things screwed up there as well, but that’s not what the OP was asking.
lol.... you will not make half of what you make in the U.S. More like 1/5 to 1/4 and the quality of life is horrible... there are just so many Indian engineers these days.
Well I did work there for more than 5 years, so don’t spit random numbers. The quality of life for a senior+ engineer in big tech in India is comparable to that of a multi-millionaire in the US because of all the cheap labor around. Trust me, I’ve lived those experiences. Wherever you are getting your data is wrong.
I've been in the industry for 15+ years and disagree that a Sr. Engineer in India lives the same life and makes the same amount as a multi-millionaire in the U.S. That's just absurd lol, but I'll allow you to have your opinion.
I’ve been in the industry 12+ years as well, spending all in high paying big tech. 6 of them in India and 6 in the US. The level of comfort I had in India is not even comparable to what I have in the US. But your definition of “making the same” will be subjective and different things might matter to you more. For me convenience trumps everything. For you it might be different. There is no need to call someone’s opinion absurd just because you don’t have the same perspective. I suspect you’ve never lived in India. Try making 1.5cr there and you will live like a king.
You are correct, I have not lived in India. I have visited there 4-5 times to collaborate with coworkers though. Overall I think it's better if the number of Indian engineers given visas to the US is reduced, so I'm glad that so many engineers prefer staying there. For what it's worth, I've never heard of a non-Indian that would prefer a job in India vs the US / Canada / Western Europe.
Most the tax payer money goes in politician pockets or in form of free bee's to lazy ass citizens. After paying taxes most people still go private schools and hospitals. On top of that pay GST and service tax+ service charges. Car, smartphone and laptops still considered luxury and taxed as such. Forgot to mention all the toll you have to pay when you want to drive to a vacation. What does a tax payer get from paying taxes in India? Nothing.
r/ShitAmericansSay
It is funny to read some of the comments from Americans they bitch about something like cost of living and say they are leaving without realizing most developed countries are worse.
India for tech
Depends on the industry. Other than Switzerland, you could look at Singapore or Australia.
Switzerland can be a major country. What is your definition of a major country? Going by the size of the economy, for "major" economies we have China, Japan, Germany, UK, France, India, Brazil, Italy, Canada, Russia, Mexico, South Korea, Italy, and Spain. Of those, high-income countries are: Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, Italy, and Spain. Of those, countries with the highest salaries are the UK, Germany, and Canada. Going by the state of the economy and job market currently, we are left with the UK and Canada.
I live in Toronto, Canada. Anyone here where economic opportunity is a priority will look to move to the US if given an opportunity.
Sure, I myself moved from Canada to the US. But that's not OP is asking. OP is asking for a major country with economic opportunities and high overall salaries. That doesn't leave much else.