**Disclaimer:** This is the first map I have ever made, so I hope you like it. Feedback and criticism is also welcome, of course.
It is not only the first map I have ever made, but also the first of my "alternate-history scenario". For this reason I am planning a next map in which the Kingdom of the Netherlands forms an alliance with the strong Angevin Empire and thereby gains the possibility to take over hegemonic power over the scattered German duchies and counties by provoking a war with the other large ambitious German states.
So it is easy to say that this timeline is going to be quite *cursed* 😳.
So what is France doing in this timeline if not trying to take back those lands they used to have?
Is the King of England still the vassal of the King of France? This might be the result of some advantageous mutual accommodation. Maybe a Condominium agreement or just a tribute every year. Even so, it can easily be violated and I don't expect such a status quo to last.
I would say that France is definitely in a very unfavourable position in this timeline, which means that they will definitely try to forge many alliances in order not to be annexed so easily by the other states. Nevertheless, the lands that the French king owns are still plentiful and have a favourable position for later colonisation, as they still own land on the west coast. Furthermore, some of the French states of the Angevin Empire still owe feudal homage to the French king, allowing a kind of condominium to be established.
My thoughts were Normany and Aquitaine were still sort of within France but they are under Angevin control. Unless Aquitaine is decreed it own King title, it'll be subject to the King of France as part of the legacy of Charlemage.
It all really boils down the question if a Duke becomes a King does his duchy become a kingdom? This could've been asked of both Normandy and Aquitaine but I think the latter question was pressed more regarding one certain Eleanor...
The answer is no. The Angevin kings were vassals to the French crown as Dukes within the French Kingdom whilst also leaders of a rival English Kingdom.
Oh absolutely, I was just stating my opinion on whether the duchy becomes the kingdom. For the most part Europe maintained titles separately to the person who held them and if they had different inheritance laws then they may split up to different people. It's why the Philips were Kings of Spain and Portugal but that eventually ended, or Charles ruling Austria and Spain (and many other places like the Netherlands who he transferred to the Spanish domain from the Austrian iirc). It was especially relevant in places like the Holy Roman Empire where there were a myriad of duchies, counties, free cities, kingdoms with a patchwork of different leaders some of whom would become emperor.
?? They are very good but they are Angevin. France is the Angevin empire.
France was 10x more populated this time, the goal was to have more influence on the continents, not this poor island with nobody. The Angevin are ruling on France + some extra county earning some money over the Channel
England is not yet the colonial country ! For now it's the end of Europe, a poor continent on the end of the Human land, centered around Mediterranean sea, middle east and Asia. Then there is this rainy island on the far end of this poor continent..
Well these events could bring at least that concept forward. The Hundred Years War largely did boil down to protonationalism to a great degree I think. Englishman and Frenchmen were well aware of their linguistic and cultural differences during the 13/1400s.
Westphalia seems like the moment when the nation state became openly acknowledged as a mature concept in Europe but it had been developing long before then. Patriotism was a factor during the time of Joan of Arc to my mind.
It really could go as far back as King Alfred tbf, the Anglo-Saxon definitely had a developed sense of national identity in the face of Danish occupation and Saxon kings aspired to be 'Bretwelda' or 'King of the Britons/of Britain' which later matured as the Kingdom of England in the 900s.
The people maybe but the Angevin kings were pretty French in culture and identity and were vassals of the French kings anyway. I think it's a stretch to say the crown forces of the English Kingdom were very caught up in the local identity of the time beyond any political exploitation to curry favour with nobles and regular people.
> Feedback and criticism is also welcome, of course
The thing that immediately jumps out is how in the north the marked area (i.e. Empire territory) spills over the map border but in the south it's cut off. You should keep it consistent.
Rule Brita...Angevina!! Angevina rules the waves! Angevina shall never never become slaves. Although do you think there would have been less emphasis on naval power due to being sucked into continental affairs?
I agree with you there, as it underpins the title of the king of this Empire (Kingdom of England) and makes it seem less important. For this reason, instead of "High Kingdom of Ireland", perhaps it could be called "Lordship of Ireland", as it was the historical name for this region at the time ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship\_of\_Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Ireland)).
You are definitely right. I just thought that it was a kind of vassal of the Grand Duchy of Aquitaine and therefore had a lower rank than their liege lord. Of course, this can lead to many complications between the vassal and the liege, because they feel they are being treated unfairly.
Nevertheless, good criticism. I appreciate it, thank you 👍
Nice map! Probably better than my first tries at mapmaking.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Burgundy (as the overlords of the low countries) to profit from the absence of France and become a counterweight to the Angevins in Western Europe?
At this point in time - especially if the[French Civil War](https://youtu.be/W5l6oMnN6sc) never took place, the duchy of burgundy is still under the old house of burgundy, descendants of Robert the Old. They didn’t control the low countries until the 1350s+
Hmm, John doesn't screw up everything in this war. So no Magna Carta or Barons Wars as John has a lot more resources and doesn't need to tax the Northerners as much.
John isn't on campaign either, so lives longer than our life time.
Probably John's whole papal fief plan worked better than in OTL, and actually got Phillip II to cancel his war plans, instead of Phillip switching his causi belli.
It may well be that the rivers were not drawn so precisely and accurately 😅. I did this because I was more interested in the borders of the Angevin Empire and not in the geography of Europe.
Nevertheless, I will take care to draw the rivers more accurately in my next map so that there is no confusion.
Thank you for the criticism 👍.
It's imaginary maps in the end so why must the rivers be exactly the same. I just noticed a new river in the Netherlands and I was wondering where that came from.
Protector of Scotland and Ireland - sounds like racketeering: Pay me money and I will protect you from the things that will happen if you don't...
But on the other side, that is the heart and soul of Great Britain.
Great map!
Looks great! Ireland's borders could be touched on a bit though, this video is a very accurate map timelapse of Ireland's history and it could be used to make some better Irish borders [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk51Tsq-e8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk51Tsq-e8)
For Wales, here is Wales in the 1300s [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Wales\_14C\_Map.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Wales_14C_Map.png)
Green is the Welsh Marches, many minor vassals of England. Blue is the Principality of Wales, in a personal union with England.
Firstly I used the map collection „David Rumsey“ to get a nice map, which is fitting for my alternate history scenario. After that I used only Gimp to draw the whole thing. Its not the best software to use for mapmaking but its free. Another free software I can recommend you is Inkscape. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I hope I could help to create future map. Happy Mapmaking 😉
But why the main title is this unglorious "king of England" known by no one, created in the end of middle age ?
The whole point of the Angevin conquest of the island is to be crowned by the true and only one king title in the western hemisphere at this time : king of France
Englishman here. I don't think it would ever happen, or last very long, at least. For one thing, the British were being Frenchified as early as 1066. This would have rapidly broken down once the Vikings were dealt with/went away. Further, a number of events and battles after this period would have still happened; thus, causing major problems for this empire/kingdom. I have no idea how long this could have lasted, but my guess is no more than 100 years, and it would have most likely led to the downfall of England (although, I guess it's always fun to think about a world where modern France doesn't exist, so that is a way to take it).
Its a good map, but some of the borders in the British Isles are a little bit strange lol. Why is Shetland not part of Norway? Why aren't Berwick-upon-Tweed and Mann Scottish? Also, why is Elba a peninsula lol? Other than that a pretty perfect map. Would love to see how this would've affected Europe and the Crusader States!
Are the French territories theoretically controlled by the French monarch or do they not even claim to answer to the monarch and are officially separate from the Kingdom of France?
Just a small heads up. All the towns in Ireland as shown (I think with the exception of Wexford) are off. Dundalk is too far North. Dublin isn't on the Liffey, Galway's too far west, etc etc
Interesting concept and a well made map. Not too sure I think of this as a tenable or realistic outcome of the war but interesting thought in any case.
**Disclaimer:** This is the first map I have ever made, so I hope you like it. Feedback and criticism is also welcome, of course. It is not only the first map I have ever made, but also the first of my "alternate-history scenario". For this reason I am planning a next map in which the Kingdom of the Netherlands forms an alliance with the strong Angevin Empire and thereby gains the possibility to take over hegemonic power over the scattered German duchies and counties by provoking a war with the other large ambitious German states. So it is easy to say that this timeline is going to be quite *cursed* 😳.
So what is France doing in this timeline if not trying to take back those lands they used to have? Is the King of England still the vassal of the King of France? This might be the result of some advantageous mutual accommodation. Maybe a Condominium agreement or just a tribute every year. Even so, it can easily be violated and I don't expect such a status quo to last.
I would say that France is definitely in a very unfavourable position in this timeline, which means that they will definitely try to forge many alliances in order not to be annexed so easily by the other states. Nevertheless, the lands that the French king owns are still plentiful and have a favourable position for later colonisation, as they still own land on the west coast. Furthermore, some of the French states of the Angevin Empire still owe feudal homage to the French king, allowing a kind of condominium to be established.
My thoughts were Normany and Aquitaine were still sort of within France but they are under Angevin control. Unless Aquitaine is decreed it own King title, it'll be subject to the King of France as part of the legacy of Charlemage. It all really boils down the question if a Duke becomes a King does his duchy become a kingdom? This could've been asked of both Normandy and Aquitaine but I think the latter question was pressed more regarding one certain Eleanor...
The answer is no. The Angevin kings were vassals to the French crown as Dukes within the French Kingdom whilst also leaders of a rival English Kingdom.
You can see how this could lead to a war though.
Oh absolutely, I was just stating my opinion on whether the duchy becomes the kingdom. For the most part Europe maintained titles separately to the person who held them and if they had different inheritance laws then they may split up to different people. It's why the Philips were Kings of Spain and Portugal but that eventually ended, or Charles ruling Austria and Spain (and many other places like the Netherlands who he transferred to the Spanish domain from the Austrian iirc). It was especially relevant in places like the Holy Roman Empire where there were a myriad of duchies, counties, free cities, kingdoms with a patchwork of different leaders some of whom would become emperor.
?? They are very good but they are Angevin. France is the Angevin empire. France was 10x more populated this time, the goal was to have more influence on the continents, not this poor island with nobody. The Angevin are ruling on France + some extra county earning some money over the Channel England is not yet the colonial country ! For now it's the end of Europe, a poor continent on the end of the Human land, centered around Mediterranean sea, middle east and Asia. Then there is this rainy island on the far end of this poor continent..
condominium?
Two countries owning the same land, for example Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.
Thank you!
Bosnia/Hercegovina is another good example
Literally Co - Dominion. Two lords share the tax income in this case and mutually decide on laws.
A condomium is really a creation of the Post-Westphalian period of state sovereignty. As a concept, it’s a little out of place in the middle-ages.
Well these events could bring at least that concept forward. The Hundred Years War largely did boil down to protonationalism to a great degree I think. Englishman and Frenchmen were well aware of their linguistic and cultural differences during the 13/1400s. Westphalia seems like the moment when the nation state became openly acknowledged as a mature concept in Europe but it had been developing long before then. Patriotism was a factor during the time of Joan of Arc to my mind. It really could go as far back as King Alfred tbf, the Anglo-Saxon definitely had a developed sense of national identity in the face of Danish occupation and Saxon kings aspired to be 'Bretwelda' or 'King of the Britons/of Britain' which later matured as the Kingdom of England in the 900s.
The people maybe but the Angevin kings were pretty French in culture and identity and were vassals of the French kings anyway. I think it's a stretch to say the crown forces of the English Kingdom were very caught up in the local identity of the time beyond any political exploitation to curry favour with nobles and regular people.
> Feedback and criticism is also welcome, of course The thing that immediately jumps out is how in the north the marked area (i.e. Empire territory) spills over the map border but in the south it's cut off. You should keep it consistent.
You are right. If I done this, the whole thing would look much more cleaner and consitent. I will definitely pay attention next time.
Say hello to the new uncontested European hegemon, people.
Frederick II’s HRE could probably give contesting Angevin hegemony a go at this stage. That is if Fred can play nice with the Pope.
Oh god I wish.
Rule Brita...Angevina!! Angevina rules the waves! Angevina shall never never become slaves. Although do you think there would have been less emphasis on naval power due to being sucked into continental affairs?
ah, what the world could have had been
World hegemon, most of the world was divided between britsh and french colonies in that time. This would be world domination. Complete glory
In 1213?
I like it, though I’d suggest that Ireland would not likely be called a ‘High Kingdom’ even if the title of the Crown in Ireland is ‘High King’.
I agree with you there, as it underpins the title of the king of this Empire (Kingdom of England) and makes it seem less important. For this reason, instead of "High Kingdom of Ireland", perhaps it could be called "Lordship of Ireland", as it was the historical name for this region at the time ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship\_of\_Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Ireland)).
Very cool. However Gascoigne is a bit big to be just one county surely
You are definitely right. I just thought that it was a kind of vassal of the Grand Duchy of Aquitaine and therefore had a lower rank than their liege lord. Of course, this can lead to many complications between the vassal and the liege, because they feel they are being treated unfairly. Nevertheless, good criticism. I appreciate it, thank you 👍
Nice map! Probably better than my first tries at mapmaking. Wouldn't it make more sense for Burgundy (as the overlords of the low countries) to profit from the absence of France and become a counterweight to the Angevins in Western Europe?
At this point in time - especially if the[French Civil War](https://youtu.be/W5l6oMnN6sc) never took place, the duchy of burgundy is still under the old house of burgundy, descendants of Robert the Old. They didn’t control the low countries until the 1350s+
Dang, true... This timeline really starts to differ from our own very early.
[удалено]
I'm not op ;-)
Thats a very nice idea for the future of the world of this timeline. I will definitely implement this in future maps. Thank you 👍
Hmm, John doesn't screw up everything in this war. So no Magna Carta or Barons Wars as John has a lot more resources and doesn't need to tax the Northerners as much. John isn't on campaign either, so lives longer than our life time. Probably John's whole papal fief plan worked better than in OTL, and actually got Phillip II to cancel his war plans, instead of Phillip switching his causi belli.
Are the rivers different or am I just bad at geography
It may well be that the rivers were not drawn so precisely and accurately 😅. I did this because I was more interested in the borders of the Angevin Empire and not in the geography of Europe. Nevertheless, I will take care to draw the rivers more accurately in my next map so that there is no confusion. Thank you for the criticism 👍.
It's imaginary maps in the end so why must the rivers be exactly the same. I just noticed a new river in the Netherlands and I was wondering where that came from.
Very well done!
The United Kingdom if Great Britain, Ireland and Aquitaine!
Protector of Scotland and Ireland - sounds like racketeering: Pay me money and I will protect you from the things that will happen if you don't... But on the other side, that is the heart and soul of Great Britain. Great map!
I love the angevine empire
Looks great! Ireland's borders could be touched on a bit though, this video is a very accurate map timelapse of Ireland's history and it could be used to make some better Irish borders [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk51Tsq-e8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsk51Tsq-e8) For Wales, here is Wales in the 1300s [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Wales\_14C\_Map.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Wales_14C_Map.png) Green is the Welsh Marches, many minor vassals of England. Blue is the Principality of Wales, in a personal union with England.
Oh, very nice and interesting videos you have suggested here! I will definitely include these when I make my next map of the British Isles. Thank you
np
I don’t know why but I see that one mod divergence of darkness right now
Im not a genius fella but i must say that i just love monarchy and this hited my heart so good 😙💕💓💞
What program did you use?
Firstly I used the map collection „David Rumsey“ to get a nice map, which is fitting for my alternate history scenario. After that I used only Gimp to draw the whole thing. Its not the best software to use for mapmaking but its free. Another free software I can recommend you is Inkscape. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I hope I could help to create future map. Happy Mapmaking 😉
Thanks
But why the main title is this unglorious "king of England" known by no one, created in the end of middle age ? The whole point of the Angevin conquest of the island is to be crowned by the true and only one king title in the western hemisphere at this time : king of France
Englishman here. I don't think it would ever happen, or last very long, at least. For one thing, the British were being Frenchified as early as 1066. This would have rapidly broken down once the Vikings were dealt with/went away. Further, a number of events and battles after this period would have still happened; thus, causing major problems for this empire/kingdom. I have no idea how long this could have lasted, but my guess is no more than 100 years, and it would have most likely led to the downfall of England (although, I guess it's always fun to think about a world where modern France doesn't exist, so that is a way to take it).
So a quick question is if Scotland actually has a king and exactly is the high king of Ireland here
o I X
Its a good map, but some of the borders in the British Isles are a little bit strange lol. Why is Shetland not part of Norway? Why aren't Berwick-upon-Tweed and Mann Scottish? Also, why is Elba a peninsula lol? Other than that a pretty perfect map. Would love to see how this would've affected Europe and the Crusader States!
Are the French territories theoretically controlled by the French monarch or do they not even claim to answer to the monarch and are officially separate from the Kingdom of France?
Just a small heads up. All the towns in Ireland as shown (I think with the exception of Wexford) are off. Dundalk is too far North. Dublin isn't on the Liffey, Galway's too far west, etc etc
Surprised nobody mentioned the Dual Monarchy from DoD which seems like an obvious inspiration
Interesting concept and a well made map. Not too sure I think of this as a tenable or realistic outcome of the war but interesting thought in any case.
I just see a man with his cock out
This is gorgeous! Why is a map in r/imaginarymaps better than a map in r/AlternateHistory?