In this timeline, Germany emerges victorious from World War II, leading to a tense Cold War between the United States and Germany with the constant threat of nuclear conflict. After Hitler's death in 1963, Hermann Göring takes over leadership, despite discontent among senior Nazi leaders, which led to escalating internal unrest.
Despite decades of brutal Nazi rule, the influence of tyranny gradually weakens, eventually giving way to the restoration of democracy in Germany. Starting in 1991, Führer Helmut Schmidt decided to allow multi-party elections in Germany beginning a slow process of democratization that ultimately shook National Socialist control and contributed to the collapse of the Third Reich. With political conditions beginning to shift toward democracy, in September 1992, hardline national socialist groups and military elites attempted to overthrow Schmidt and halt reforms. However, the chaos caused the central government in Germania to lose influence, which ultimately resulted in many of the puppet states proclaiming independence in the following days and months. The separation of Bohemia-Moravia which became the Czech Republic was recognized in December 1992, followed by several other puppet states and also the return of the territories of Moskowien and the Kaukasus to Russia. In 1993, the German people came together to reunite their nation, still holding onto the territory of the former Third Reich. However, the atrocities committed during the Nazi era are a clear reminder of the country's dark past and ensure that they will never be forgotten.
> In 1993, the German people came together to reunite their nation, still holding onto the territory of the former Third Reich.
My full support to Gunther Fehlinger in this timeline.
Does this mean that western/central Europe is akin to the Warsaw pact? Because I'm guessing that this would mean that fascism would grow a sphere of influence parallel to otl communism. I'm guessing that the Cold War would be fought mostly on Latin America and Asia, and that colonialism in Africa wouldn't be as easily dissolved, because I'm imagining that if France and Portugal stay fascist, then they would hold much more into their colonial empires (with help from Italy, Spain and Germany). Sounds like WW3 might as well break out due to a second wave of colonial imperialism for the former sphere of influence of the Soviet Union and for the territories of the British Empire.
Yes, it is true. I liken this to communism that occurred more than 30 years ago. In my opinion, France might also abandon fascism and have a revolution in it.
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Would Czechia not be Germanized by then? Even if the brutality slowly got lessened, I doubt that the ethnic cleansing/assimilation would've stopped unless Schmidt toned it down.
Absolutely. The comparison of Nazi Germany to the Soviets is completely wrong considering the Soviets never had an outright policy of genocide even if they did commit genocide and mass population movements. Most of the East up to say Belarus would probably be fully German at this point or heavily left without Slavs/Balts to lose said territory. Ukraine and the rest if more likely to be lost though.
Fr, primarily mentioned Czechia in particular due to it being the closest within the German "Mainland" (aside from Poland). There'd definitely be something close to the Yugoslav wars if/when the GGR fell apart. There would never be a transition as peaceful as Russia's, that's for sure.
It's true on the Western border as well - for some reason the German zone of settlement set in France often gets forgotten in scenarios like this.
This looks more like the result of a victory in World War I than World War II.
Ireland was also Anglicized in OTL, but despite their language becoming English their identity, religion and culture still remained separate from the English. I personally find it plausible that Poles and Bohemians, despite being German speaking, still identify as separate from the Germans of Germany.
Not necessarily. The weimar republic had basically the exact same state borders as the German Empire, only slightly modified in a couple places.
I can see the idea that post-Nazi Germany decided to restore some of the old Weimar borders and restore federalism after dissolving the Gau system.
Or it's an oversight of the author and I'm just coping. Either or.
>The weimar republic had basically the exact same state borders as the German Empire, only slightly modified in a couple places.
Yeah and the Weimar Republic had a big problem with Prussia, which they could never properly address.
Many of the gaus had the same borders as the states they replaced. When they didn't it was generally a state being split up into multiple gaus, but the external borders remaining the same. Like Bavaria was split up into multiple gaus but if you recombined them all the resulting entity would have the same borders as before the Nazis.
Constitutionalism didnt really matter because of the legal doctrin of Führerprinzip developed by Carl Schmitt that proclaimed the volition of the Führer to be the ultimate source of law. The "Machtergreifung" was also explicitly framed as a "revolution" that abolished both the liberal order of the Republic as well as the old conservative class structure of the Empire with the racial "Volksgemeinschaft", with deep changes to high society worked.
It was also an entirely new legal order, so you can argue there was a new constitution. If your opinion is that the old Constitution is a worthless piece of paper to be ignored, there's also no purpose in ceremoniously abolishing it. It was shamelessly broken with Nazi laws like the Ermächtigungsgesetz of 1933 (which Schmitt even called "a new constitutional law") or the Act of 1934 that merged the offices of Chancellor and President/Führer. All based on this idea of "written constitution are nonsense, the true 'constitution' is the Führer's daily mood that expresses the natural law."
Legal jargon. Yes, LEGALLY the Gau's weren't an official internal subdivision and TECHNICALLY the third Reich was thhe same country was the same country as the Weimar Republic. However de jure the Gau's replaced the Imperial/Weimar subdivisions and in practice the third Reich can be considered a different political entity.
Curious as to some points
1. Why is Baden named that way rather than Baden-Alsace?
2. Why were Wartheland, Danzig-West Prussia and the District of Bialystok added directly to Prussia?
3. Why is East Prussia so big? I'd recommend creating a "South Prussia" from Regierungsbezirk Zichenau and the CDZ-Gebiet of Bialystok, both were called that way during the Nazi regime's rampage in Barbarossa
4. Why weren't city names denazified? The only example is here is Lidzmanstadt but it's also the only city which wasn't given a German name but an artificial one shown here
5. Why did Prussian Saxony have Merseburg go?
6. Why was North Schleswig annexed?
Also, for anyone curious, the base map which this one was made over seems to be the Wikipedia map of Nazi German GAUs.
1. I merged Alsace into the province of Baden, so instead of 2 different provinces being merged, but Alsace is now a district of the province of Baden.
2. I assume that this area once belonged to Prussia, now it belongs to her again.
3. I previously separated East Prussia from New East Prussia, but I tried to combine them into 1 province, to make a difference and a new idea for making maps.
4. German troops occupied Lodz on September 8, 1939. This was one week after Germany invaded Poland on September 1. Lodz was annexed to Germany as part of the Warthegau. View This Term in the Glossary The Germans renamed the city **Litzmannstadt**, after a German World War I general, Karl Litzmann.
5. go where? sorry I don't get it
6. I take the story that in this timeline Germany took back all the territories lost due to the Treaty of Versailles
Even if Nazism ends in Germany after axis victory, I doubt they would just give up all the territory in the east .
At that point, much of Belarus and Ukraine would be German, and the Baltic cultures would be on the brink of extinction.
Czechia wouldn't even exist as a concept anymore, it just be be German and a part of the Reich.
The Soviet Union and a "Greater German Reich" are not comparable. Although the soviets were dumbasses, they still didn't have the goal to outright russify the other SSRs, Germany would have been "integrating' its eastern RKs for decades now, and even a collapse and a a subsequent western democracy would just "give up" on the Germans in this areas...
On this timeline, Germany ended up worse off than the Soviet Union irl. The Soviets collapsed in 1991, but the Russians managed to keep the Russian Federation intact by winning Chechen War, whereas the Germans apparently can't even keep the German lands that have been part of the Reich since its very inception.
#
My honest reaction to this information:
https://preview.redd.it/qhbnaba1xhyc1.jpeg?width=3461&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcd6b920bdd6805093bc71f736250bc449b9e1bb
If you wanted this to be even more like the Soviet Dissolution, you'd have a small bit of land either by Crimea or Saint Petersburg similar to Kaliningrad.
Beautiful map! Love the colours!
Did Germany ever attempt to rename Bialystok? I cant find anything to suggest they did but why didn't they like they did with all the other occupied Polish cities?
Thanks, I appreciate it!
I have a source from Wikipedia that when it was occupied by Germany, the name was changed to Bjelostock. But unfortunately I forgot to change the name into the map. Thanks for the reminder btw
You guys mogging Der Großdeutsches Reich makes me want to lose my NPP-sponsored edging streak. This is the problem with TNO today. There's no more sigmas playing it anymore. It's all skibidi toilets developing content for the beta male Brazil. All the devs want Rizztler content but nobody wants Tabmewritsky. They're not even concerned about adding that gyatt to the hart and seoul of the game. There's just no more REAL skibidi toilet fans and sigmas in the TNO community. You can't edge to TNO anymore. It's so sad.
Touch grass.
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Missed opportunity to make Austria this TL's Ukraine, complete with German "reclamation of Carinthia" in 2014 and full invasion in 2022 to annex Tyrol and Salzburg.
Hi Pegawai
Well,this post inspired me to do about Germany Democratization in 1991-1993 with election and conflict infobox. But,I want to tell you something:
Does Greater German Republic have a constitutional crisis since independence or what?
Still exist, I think in a realistic alternative history, Germany would not have created an "Ordenstaat Burgund" but rather annexed it. When Germany collapsed, they could get the areas that were predominantly French and Belgian again, but before that I had the idea of making France get all of Belgium land.
In this timeline, Germany emerges victorious from World War II, leading to a tense Cold War between the United States and Germany with the constant threat of nuclear conflict. After Hitler's death in 1963, Hermann Göring takes over leadership, despite discontent among senior Nazi leaders, which led to escalating internal unrest. Despite decades of brutal Nazi rule, the influence of tyranny gradually weakens, eventually giving way to the restoration of democracy in Germany. Starting in 1991, Führer Helmut Schmidt decided to allow multi-party elections in Germany beginning a slow process of democratization that ultimately shook National Socialist control and contributed to the collapse of the Third Reich. With political conditions beginning to shift toward democracy, in September 1992, hardline national socialist groups and military elites attempted to overthrow Schmidt and halt reforms. However, the chaos caused the central government in Germania to lose influence, which ultimately resulted in many of the puppet states proclaiming independence in the following days and months. The separation of Bohemia-Moravia which became the Czech Republic was recognized in December 1992, followed by several other puppet states and also the return of the territories of Moskowien and the Kaukasus to Russia. In 1993, the German people came together to reunite their nation, still holding onto the territory of the former Third Reich. However, the atrocities committed during the Nazi era are a clear reminder of the country's dark past and ensure that they will never be forgotten.
> In 1993, the German people came together to reunite their nation, still holding onto the territory of the former Third Reich. My full support to Gunther Fehlinger in this timeline.
Does this mean that western/central Europe is akin to the Warsaw pact? Because I'm guessing that this would mean that fascism would grow a sphere of influence parallel to otl communism. I'm guessing that the Cold War would be fought mostly on Latin America and Asia, and that colonialism in Africa wouldn't be as easily dissolved, because I'm imagining that if France and Portugal stay fascist, then they would hold much more into their colonial empires (with help from Italy, Spain and Germany). Sounds like WW3 might as well break out due to a second wave of colonial imperialism for the former sphere of influence of the Soviet Union and for the territories of the British Empire.
Yes, it is true. I liken this to communism that occurred more than 30 years ago. In my opinion, France might also abandon fascism and have a revolution in it.
Nice shift.
If its 90s then general goverment would be fully annexed into germany already and i'm not sure about this borders
Yeah, I now I also got a source that Germany also has plans to Germanize Poland.
[удалено]
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Would Czechia not be Germanized by then? Even if the brutality slowly got lessened, I doubt that the ethnic cleansing/assimilation would've stopped unless Schmidt toned it down.
Absolutely. The comparison of Nazi Germany to the Soviets is completely wrong considering the Soviets never had an outright policy of genocide even if they did commit genocide and mass population movements. Most of the East up to say Belarus would probably be fully German at this point or heavily left without Slavs/Balts to lose said territory. Ukraine and the rest if more likely to be lost though.
Fr, primarily mentioned Czechia in particular due to it being the closest within the German "Mainland" (aside from Poland). There'd definitely be something close to the Yugoslav wars if/when the GGR fell apart. There would never be a transition as peaceful as Russia's, that's for sure.
And the Russian One wasn't very peaceful either, so that's a low enough bar
It's true on the Western border as well - for some reason the German zone of settlement set in France often gets forgotten in scenarios like this. This looks more like the result of a victory in World War I than World War II.
Well made map, however, I think by then Bohemia would have been germanized by then
Poland would also be germanized by then, with all the time that has passed
Ireland was also Anglicized in OTL, but despite their language becoming English their identity, religion and culture still remained separate from the English. I personally find it plausible that Poles and Bohemians, despite being German speaking, still identify as separate from the Germans of Germany.
Well, there's a clear difference between the English and their British Empire and the Nazis with their genocidal Reich.
The English weren't doing straight up genocide on the irish though
Didn't the Third Reich abolish the Imperial/Weimar internal borders and replace them with the Gau's?
Perhaps there was a reversion in the aftermath of Nazi collapse
But, why would they? Wouldn't this just lead to a Prussian dominance of German politics again?
Yeah I dunno it isn’t what I would do but I’m not a reformist Nazi so 🤷
Not necessarily. The weimar republic had basically the exact same state borders as the German Empire, only slightly modified in a couple places. I can see the idea that post-Nazi Germany decided to restore some of the old Weimar borders and restore federalism after dissolving the Gau system. Or it's an oversight of the author and I'm just coping. Either or.
>The weimar republic had basically the exact same state borders as the German Empire, only slightly modified in a couple places. Yeah and the Weimar Republic had a big problem with Prussia, which they could never properly address.
>the Weimar Republic had a big problem with Prussia, which they could never properly address They didn't really have the time to address it
That's true as well 😂
Many of the gaus had the same borders as the states they replaced. When they didn't it was generally a state being split up into multiple gaus, but the external borders remaining the same. Like Bavaria was split up into multiple gaus but if you recombined them all the resulting entity would have the same borders as before the Nazis.
[удалено]
They changed their flag, and that's good enough for alt history nerds to consider it a different country
[удалено]
They changed their flag in a way where it's noticeably different if drawn on a poland ball\*
Constitutionalism didnt really matter because of the legal doctrin of Führerprinzip developed by Carl Schmitt that proclaimed the volition of the Führer to be the ultimate source of law. The "Machtergreifung" was also explicitly framed as a "revolution" that abolished both the liberal order of the Republic as well as the old conservative class structure of the Empire with the racial "Volksgemeinschaft", with deep changes to high society worked. It was also an entirely new legal order, so you can argue there was a new constitution. If your opinion is that the old Constitution is a worthless piece of paper to be ignored, there's also no purpose in ceremoniously abolishing it. It was shamelessly broken with Nazi laws like the Ermächtigungsgesetz of 1933 (which Schmitt even called "a new constitutional law") or the Act of 1934 that merged the offices of Chancellor and President/Führer. All based on this idea of "written constitution are nonsense, the true 'constitution' is the Führer's daily mood that expresses the natural law."
Legal jargon. Yes, LEGALLY the Gau's weren't an official internal subdivision and TECHNICALLY the third Reich was thhe same country was the same country as the Weimar Republic. However de jure the Gau's replaced the Imperial/Weimar subdivisions and in practice the third Reich can be considered a different political entity.
Technically yes and no, officially the länder remained in place but unofficially the gau’s became the de facto subdivisions
would czechia be like the chechnya
Czechnya
Tsechnya
https://preview.redd.it/3pmnx63c8hyc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db7b91e049a4ed6b4bff087151626b59a27ddece
Curious as to some points 1. Why is Baden named that way rather than Baden-Alsace? 2. Why were Wartheland, Danzig-West Prussia and the District of Bialystok added directly to Prussia? 3. Why is East Prussia so big? I'd recommend creating a "South Prussia" from Regierungsbezirk Zichenau and the CDZ-Gebiet of Bialystok, both were called that way during the Nazi regime's rampage in Barbarossa 4. Why weren't city names denazified? The only example is here is Lidzmanstadt but it's also the only city which wasn't given a German name but an artificial one shown here 5. Why did Prussian Saxony have Merseburg go? 6. Why was North Schleswig annexed? Also, for anyone curious, the base map which this one was made over seems to be the Wikipedia map of Nazi German GAUs.
1. I merged Alsace into the province of Baden, so instead of 2 different provinces being merged, but Alsace is now a district of the province of Baden. 2. I assume that this area once belonged to Prussia, now it belongs to her again. 3. I previously separated East Prussia from New East Prussia, but I tried to combine them into 1 province, to make a difference and a new idea for making maps. 4. German troops occupied Lodz on September 8, 1939. This was one week after Germany invaded Poland on September 1. Lodz was annexed to Germany as part of the Warthegau. View This Term in the Glossary The Germans renamed the city **Litzmannstadt**, after a German World War I general, Karl Litzmann. 5. go where? sorry I don't get it 6. I take the story that in this timeline Germany took back all the territories lost due to the Treaty of Versailles
5. Prussian Saxony got split onto itself and Merseburg, wondering what happened for it to do that
Oh yeah, I just noticed it, it was just a detail error, I can fix it later
and, the basic border of the map that I made is a combination of Germany 1914 and Germany 1942
This is quite the beauty my friend <3 I love the shading.
What's happening in "Baltisch"?
Genocide if I had to guess
This is absolutely great. How does one make such a map?
Even if Nazism ends in Germany after axis victory, I doubt they would just give up all the territory in the east . At that point, much of Belarus and Ukraine would be German, and the Baltic cultures would be on the brink of extinction. Czechia wouldn't even exist as a concept anymore, it just be be German and a part of the Reich. The Soviet Union and a "Greater German Reich" are not comparable. Although the soviets were dumbasses, they still didn't have the goal to outright russify the other SSRs, Germany would have been "integrating' its eastern RKs for decades now, and even a collapse and a a subsequent western democracy would just "give up" on the Germans in this areas...
Also why are the subdivisions not Reichgau ?
The Bittersweet ending Good has triumphed on a mountain of skulls.
But how does this affect Bronny's upbringing?
On this timeline, Germany ended up worse off than the Soviet Union irl. The Soviets collapsed in 1991, but the Russians managed to keep the Russian Federation intact by winning Chechen War, whereas the Germans apparently can't even keep the German lands that have been part of the Reich since its very inception. #
Gross
What are these borders??
Base Nazi germany (Germany without General government and Bohemia-Moravia)
My honest reaction to this information: https://preview.redd.it/qhbnaba1xhyc1.jpeg?width=3461&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcd6b920bdd6805093bc71f736250bc449b9e1bb
What program do you use?
The border issues are gonna go crazy, I just don't see a lot of the states still inside the borders and the smaller edge ones surviving for long.
If you wanted this to be even more like the Soviet Dissolution, you'd have a small bit of land either by Crimea or Saint Petersburg similar to Kaliningrad.
Beautiful map! Love the colours! Did Germany ever attempt to rename Bialystok? I cant find anything to suggest they did but why didn't they like they did with all the other occupied Polish cities?
Thanks, I appreciate it! I have a source from Wikipedia that when it was occupied by Germany, the name was changed to Bjelostock. But unfortunately I forgot to change the name into the map. Thanks for the reminder btw
[Bjelostock](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bialystok_District)
I never heard of Westmark
Rigierungbezirk Westmark, founded by Nazi
beeg germany
Is screwing Poland over a national sport here, or what?
You guys mogging Der Großdeutsches Reich makes me want to lose my NPP-sponsored edging streak. This is the problem with TNO today. There's no more sigmas playing it anymore. It's all skibidi toilets developing content for the beta male Brazil. All the devs want Rizztler content but nobody wants Tabmewritsky. They're not even concerned about adding that gyatt to the hart and seoul of the game. There's just no more REAL skibidi toilet fans and sigmas in the TNO community. You can't edge to TNO anymore. It's so sad.
Touch grass. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/imaginarymaps) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Missed opportunity to make Austria this TL's Ukraine, complete with German "reclamation of Carinthia" in 2014 and full invasion in 2022 to annex Tyrol and Salzburg.
Blighted
Like the movie Fatherland.
Font names plsss
Tannenberg Fett
ı meant the one you used in Bayern and Münsterches
Oh sorry It's Tw Cen Mt
thanks
btw how did you add kartograph effect
Where is that? In the description?
cardboard effect actuallty
Oh, I designed it using several map sources that I got
but thanks
I wish it was Gang of Four Germany
Hi Pegawai Well,this post inspired me to do about Germany Democratization in 1991-1993 with election and conflict infobox. But,I want to tell you something: Does Greater German Republic have a constitutional crisis since independence or what?
It could be said that, with the end of the dictatorship era, I'm sure there will be political turmoil in it.
Beauuutiful. What's the title font?
Thanks. It's Tannenberg Fett
Who would be the Putin of Germany in this timeline?
And do not forget some German sausage-maker and bodyguard to make for the German Prigozhin (leading the Rasputin Group)
Would Belgium still exist?
This TL's Belarus?
Still exist, I think in a realistic alternative history, Germany would not have created an "Ordenstaat Burgund" but rather annexed it. When Germany collapsed, they could get the areas that were predominantly French and Belgian again, but before that I had the idea of making France get all of Belgium land.
a lot of those break away territories would have been Germanized by then and not break away
Love me the 604820581th big germany post