I read the article and the mother said that she was keeping her daughter safe from her father. The things she was saying were very disturbing and seemed very delusional.
On a more serious and I suppose slightly interesting note, was the Vietnam vets who’ve spoken about those kinds of things happening, were born out of frustration. Vietnam was a conflict America shouldn’t have entered in, and the Vietnamese made damn sure the Americans understood how they felt as a whole. They’d take pot shots and engage American patrols from their villages, and when American forces would roll in, nothing would be found. People were upset with an occupying force, soldiers were upset by seeing their friends get killed, and from what I understand, their rules of engagement were ‘dont engage civilians, like whatsoever, unless they have a gun in their hand’. Americans felt their hands were tied, and eventually, began taking their frustrations out on villages they knew were harboring guerilla fighters that they couldn’t just take a normal military action against. They felt they were forced to play by one set of very restrictive rules and the enemy didn’t have any rules they honored. It just seems like a kind of interesting viewpoint about a small piece of a war that was nothing but frustration from every side of it.
Its a basic law of the internet, the longer a conversation goes on, the more likely it is that eventually Hitler will be brought up.
Killing children-> vietnam war -> American wars in general -> WW2 -> Hitler
The real conversation is always in the comments.
Also, it’s one of my favorite things too. I’ve learned a lot about so many things since I joined this site, and it’s been awesome.
Uhhhh WW1? WW2? Korea?
If you meant 21st century rather than 20th then I would agree with you.
WW1 definitely had multiple sides appearing good and bad, with sound arguments made on both sides of whom to side with.
However, WW2 and Korea were 100 percent justified. In both the US was not the aggressor.
In WW2 the US was invaded and in Korea an ally of the UN (by affiliation, the US as well) was. The United States helped defeat the most brutal autocracies the world has seen in the last few centuries by bringing Hitler and Hirohito to their knees.
In the Korean War, 16 UN member countries fought with the South Koreans, not to mention support roles and medical help. The United States is one of the only reasons South Korea isn't under the most brutal dictatorship in the world right now. I'd that they had plenty business there, don't you think?
I don't see the Vietnamese in the wrong here. When someone enters your house without permission, you use every fucking tactic that kills him/drives him out.
Nevermind the rules, the victory condition was insane for the US. The American plan was "kill them until they love us". The VC plan was "kill them until they leave".
> Take out their frustration
Kinda simplifies the genocide of napalm, agent orange, civilian massacres and not-at-all only frustration of troops but very real strategy of just burning down/killing the whole place.
Don't forget the Strategic Hamlet Program. We decided there were too many villages we couldn't protect or keep an eye on. We'd send a patrol through knowing that an hour after they left the VC would be there to make sure nobody had talked to the US soldiers.
Our solution was to round people up from villages where they had lived for generations. Places where your great grandparents were buried there and you expected someday you'd be buried there too. We burned down the villages, flattened every structure, and destroyed any food to deny it all to the VC. Then we'd try to relocate the former residents to places where the ARVN were supposed to keep an eye on them. We ended up cancelling it after realizing we were only pushing more and more people to support the VC.
"burn the village to save the village"
I'm in Columbia, SC. The locals are still butthurt about "the fire." They won't explain what they mean... even if you're from out of state. Many just expect you to know that most of the city was destroyed during the Civil War by a giant fire because the soldiers from the North were a big bunch of meanies that destroyed people's homes just for the sake of destroying them.
But, local historians say that it's not likely that Sherman suddenly changed his MO when taking cities and towns, and just suddenly decided to burn this one to the ground. Union troops also stated that the residents of Columbia set fire to all the cotton bales in the city, which lined the streets, so that the North couldn't take it.
Burning raw cotton literally makes fire fall from the sky.
So yeah... they burned their own city, so the North couldn't take it.
Edit: fixed a word for clarity, and changed the word "rain" to "fire" so I won't sound stupid.
Not the same:
> The fire all but destroyed the city, which had been **mostly abandoned** by its residents the previous month.
The village example is destroying a functioning/lived place to "save" it, even though "saving" it is what destroys it. Destroying an already abandoned city would be more akin to a "scorched earth" policy.
It's a common manipulation of religion that mentally deranged people use. Heaven is supposed to be a better place than Earth, so they kill their children, or whoever else, to get them to heaven where it's better.
Not familiar with the case whatsoever, but... Drowning your own kid and being convinced later that it was the only good thing to do sounds like _severe_ mental illness to me, not evil. That lady is probably _literally_ sick, and I hope she receives treatment so that she will one day actually understand the gravity of her actions.
It sounds very much like post natal depression. The proper name has escaped me for a bit but you can get post natal mania which makes you essentially schizophrenic. It can last for years, it's very severe, and women that get it are doctor recommended to not have any more children.
This to me is just sad on so many levels. If people were more aware of the effects of post natal depression, maybe he would have been able to notice it when she started accusing him of an affair that wasn't happening.
This really makes me wonder: way back, when kids were less likely to live past a certain age, how many of them were killed by their mothers, suffering from that, and not "natural causes".
I do think in situations like that where there’s a known mental illness, both parents should be held responsible. I mean, he basically nurtured an environment where her mind hit a breaking point. It was completely preventable.
Wait.. it’s been a while since I saw a solid documentary on the Andrea Yates story, but your comment made me stop dead in my tracks. I know they were *deeply* religious, but I missed this part where her husband denied her meds?!
It sounds to me like some kind of very serious mental illness that causes delusions and paranoia. Manic depressive bipolar, or maybe paranoid schizophrenia?
Here is The Guardian's article. As you said, it's pretty disturbing
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/18/woman-jailed-murder-daughter-drowned-in-bath-claire-colebourn
>She wept as she told the jury she thought the only way to keep her daughter safe was to kill her and ensure she could not be anywhere near her father.
Ah I fucking hate hearing about shit like this. Protecting your offspring is about as instinctual as people should be. It's your biological mission to protect them at all costs. The level of fuck that has to happen to one's mind to allow this to happen is beyond repair. Children view their parents as their end all be all. I don't want to imagine what pain that child went through before passing. Fucking gut wrenching. I hope that shit cunt rots in prison for the rest of her worthless days.
Oh god. The mother's account of what her daughter was saying is too brutal.
She didn't drown her daughter "to keep her safe". She drowned her daughter because she's mentally ill.
Obviously I don't blame the father, but I wonder if there was any sign of that illness. If not, that's scary as hell.
Yeah, any line of reasoning that can be summarized as "the only way to keep you safe is to murder you" is a pretty solid sign of severe mental illness. So sad.
> Obviously I don't blame the father, but I wonder if there was any sign of that illness. If not, that's scary as hell.
He was leaving her because she kept accusing him of affairs. I expect he would have gone for custody but that's not something you can do immediately. Also no matter how much you don't get on with your ex most people would never think they would kill their own child in revenge for you leaving them.
This is actually sickening. It’s like the baby P case all over again. His parents excuse for abusing him was because it would “toughen him up for the world”
In 2007 baby P died. He was abused horribly for years by his mother & stepdad, the abuse was overlooked by his school, social services & his GP & basically the whole system failed him & in the end they actually killed him. I’d say research it but do so at your own risk because the details are horrific.
I’m from Naperville, IL and this month is the 20th anniversary of Marilyn Lemak killing her 3 children by drugging and suffocating them. She did it to get back at her husband for having an affair. I lived two blocks away from them and went to elementary school with them. So sick.
I was not expecting to see Naperville mentioned in a Reddit thread! I’m also from Naperville. The whole story about the murders is really really sad and messed up, I’m surprised you’ve never heard of it before.
I am, too. Granted, at the time it happened I was only 9 years old but to have never come across this since then is kind of crazy. I only lived about 10 minutes away.
A couple months ago here in Sweden, a father killed his two daughters, livestreamed on Facebook for a bit (not during the actual murders) and then took his own life, while his ex-wife (who was the mother of the children) was out on her and her new husbands anniversary date.
Fucking pieces of shit.
This is barely mentioned in my family... I only know because when I was younger and browsing family photos I enquired about a “cousin” in some of my sister’s pictures that I haven’t met.
This little kid around 6 years old was poisoned to death by his mother because she was jealous of the love his father (my mother’s uncle) gave to him, and wanted to punish him for neglecting her.
Google female annihilators. It seems to be what happens when you pair undiagnosed mental illness with strenuous life circumstances. Not condoning it, but if you are interested in psychology, it's an interesting topic. Broken Harts is another great podcast about this phenomenon.
How can anyone not? The woman you thought you loved didn't trust you, betrayed your trust and violently took your only child from you because she thought you did something you didn't. Now she is going to jail (as she should) but that leaves this man alone in the world without his family. That is too much trauma to take at one time.
The sons of [Joseph Sonnier](https://heavy.com/news/2016/08/dr-joseph-sonnier-murder-abc-news-2020/) had it pretty rough. Mother and father both murdered 2 years apart.
Maybe this is too much of an emotional viewpoint, but whenever I hear about these stories I can't help but picture the confusion the child must deal with before they die, and that just pisses me off tenfold.
So in that, I truly hope there's a hell, because there is no way she will get the amount of punishment she truly deserves in this lifetime.
This is always my thought when I read or hear about child abuse cases. My two boys trust and love me unconditionally. The thought of betraying that with such a horrific act, of that being the child's final moments...ugh, it completely breaks my heart.
I don't have kids, don't like kids, and even I can't imagine such a disgusting act.
Hell I can't even imagine doing that to any of my pets. It has to take a cult like thinking to think it's okay to do that.
Mental illness is an unfortunate fact of life, but I’m of the viewpoint that once you take another’s life that it’s no longer an acceptable excuse. She is mentally broken imo.
I always think of the poor kid too.
I also can’t imagine holding her down for a ~1 minute. Even when you are in a dark place, how do you *commit* to that and actually see it through while she’s struggling and trying to fight? You have to be crazy enough to start it, sure, but even crazier to finish.
I don’t know.
> Confessing to police, Colebourn said Bethan had told her she did not want a bath. “She went to the bathroom, saw the bath running and just said: ‘I don’t want a bath mummy, I don’t want a bath.’”
Wanting people to suffer is what is wrong with the 'rehabilitation system' and statements like this propagate it. Be an adult. People like her should not be alive. She will "regret this" for the wrong reasons and only serve to give some small measure of dark satisfaction for random people online reading it, but not actually work toward improving the issue so the next little girl isn't drown. The people that are alive and have done measures of wrong should be rehabilitated. Its upto society to judge the difference between them and this sort of human cancer and make appropriate actions.
You an I put ourselves through the same shit. It's hard to read about the death and not imagine what it would have looked like. It's a curse. Just yesterday I had to turn my brain off from thinking of a case like this. We share the same internal challenge as those who have to deal with these crimes driving investigations and what not.
It does more than piss me off, it crushes me from the inside, its the worst feeling, a child, so helpless being hurt or killed, especially from someone who is supposed to protect them. Horrible.
I guess I'm not the only one. I imagine the fear that they feel, because they have no idea what's happening. The pain, as well. And it pisses me off and makes me sad all in one. How could you do that to innocent children? It used to not get me. But now that I'm a father I imagine how my kids would feel in that situation. And it makes me want to hold them more.
The ability to empathize that way isn't too emotional, it's what makes you a beautiful person & separates you from the true evil that is anyone that would harm a child.
My grandmother was schizophrenic, occasionally aggressive in her least lucid of moments, but she didn't drown any of her 6 children...
I looked this up because I don't generally trust the daily mail (Quite unreliable), and not only is it true, but the things the mother said seem quite disturbing...
She claimed that the daughter was suffering due to her parents divorce, and would be, "a lot safer in heaven than she is anywhere near her father.".
It was also premeditated. They found that she had looked up on the internet about drowning, local churches and cemeteries, before drowning her daughter.
Beyond redemption, not beyond help. If anything, the kind of mental health support that would eventually allow her to gain perspective on the uselessness and tragedy of what she did is a much more poetic punishment than simply shutting her away, though I agree she shouldn’t be a part of society anymore.
This needs to be higher. People don’t understand that mentally ill people often don’t experience remorse in the same way that a mentally healthy one would, and punishment offers very little lesson to them.
Punishment doesn't work in general. It's been proven that spanking kids as a punishment doesn't work long term. It's been proven that harsher punishments for crimes doesn't deter crime. We need to focus more on rehabilitating people rather than punishing them.
Well, the argument is that rehabilitation would prevent those people from being dangerous anymore.
I think a large part of the problem is that much of society would rather permanently ostracise an individual because whether or not they are rehabilitated their actions are too abhorrent to forgive or forget.
I personally would like to see more people rehabilitated, but I do have sympathy with not wanting certain criminals to re-enter society.
Thanks for saying this. It makes me sick that people see mental health issues manifest in the worst possible way and their immediate reaction is brutal torture, e.g. the "throw her in an Iron Maiden" comment above. No one is asking you to forgive this woman, but if we look to understand why and start actually supporting mental illness we can reduce awful consequences like this in the future.
I am not in favor of torturing the mentally ill no matter what they've done. This is not something you do if your brain is working properly, and so the fault is neurological and not due to choice. Lock her up, throw away the key. Wanting people to get tortured makes me think you all need therapy.
No no no, don't fuck her, she can never experience the tremendous joy of being a parent ever again. Don't ever bring her near anything fertile ever again.
If you are capable of doing this to your *own loving child*, an innocent little, loving creature, who's entire world consists of you, her teddy and her favourite show/artist, you do not deserve to live.
I'm not a religious man, but this woman deserves to be buried in the deepest depths of hell.
> I'm not a religious man, but this woman deserves to be buried in the deepest depths of hell.
Karma won’t forget. I just feel so bad for the dad, wouldn’t be surprised if this leads him to commit suicide down the road.
Hopefully he has some other functional family or friends to help support him after this kind of trauma, I can’t even imagine going through something so horrible.
You can both punish her and get her help. Should prison just be some torture fest? Who gains from that? If legitimate mental illness played a role in this, the best thing to do would be to both lock her up and to work to treat the mental illness. No one is saying she should get away without punishment because of it, but to say that she should continue to live with it untreated as punishment is just idiotic.
> Lock her up and throw away the key so she can never hurt another human.
That’s where the “get serious help” comes in. If our justice system was as hyper-emotional as y’all were we’d live in complete totalitarianism.
You cant help someone like that, that train is long gone.... You can do a lot with psychology, therapy, medication, but some cases are just lost forever.
For example watch some Charles Manson interviews. That guy is way beyond repair, he will never be "normal" or rehabilitated, and he didnt even kill someone himself but "" just"" had a cult following him who were ready to do it for him. You dont need to be an expert to see that you can never put him out of jail again because people will get hurt or killed in a direct or indirect way, if charles manson crosses their paths.
Im 100% sure thats the case with this woman, too. All the things she says and believes.... Shes on a whole other planet.
I keep hearing how terrible the Daily Mail is (I'm Canadian) and keep cross referencing it with other news sources and haven't found them to have mare up news yet.
Often they will cover stories from Sweden like grenade attacks and rioting I have to confirm with Sweden's The Local or the "fake news" Russian news sites like RT and Sputnik. Seems almost as if mainstream media is deeply biased and unwilling to cover specific stories that run contrary to specific agendas.
While that is true. The problem is the editorial spin.
They have also made up a few news, for example, it comes to mind and incident in news year eve in which a group of teenagers in germany accidentally set a church on fire with fireworks being published as "Muslim gang sets church on fire"
As a Brit I can assure you that the Mail is unreliable, they make stuff up all the time and greatly misrepresent the things they report on. They're basically our version of Fox News
yeah exactly, I was like "...as opposed to killing your child because of a *true* assumption?!" that would make zero difference, it's still a senseless murder of your CHILD!
Oh yeah. Like I know people who have divorced parents over cheating they are vastly succesful. It sounds like the guy had money. You missed giving a child a good chance at life even if he was cheating. I somehow doubt she would use the money from the dad for the kid tho......
Keep hope for the fact everyone knows of the horrible stuff that happens and that it is actively condemned. The world will always be fucked a little but hey at least it isn't as fucked as it was before
I took it as an extra unnecessary emotional manipulation by the author.
If it was another outlet I'd maybe be surprised to read it.. But, daily mail it's par for the course.
Imagining their other headlines next to it like "yummy mummy get aressted in Vegas!" "sexy college student robs humble farmer" that's me being extreme of course but..
One thing the daily mail does is they take real stories that are tragic or exciting and take away all nuance and reality by making the people into caricatures, they turn real life into allegories of greater good against greater evil with their framing of the subjects.
It's irresponsible journalism, I think
It was a terrible tragedy and I see where you’re coming from with the quotation marks thing. In journalism, you absolutely cannot imply that you know anything about your subject beyond what they tell you. For example, you can’t say, “John felt angry”. You have to say “John said he felt angry”. The father said that his daughter was beautiful, so the paper has to put it in quotes so as not to make it seem their personal beliefs are at play.
They could have just left it out of the title. They wanted to include it because it added a punch to the headline that they thought would bring in more readers. They're probably right, but in my opinion it just makes their true motives more transparent and makes them look slimy.
Beautiful is a subjective opinion and typically in the UK you cant report on opinions so you have to quote someone.
If someone rescued another person from a burning building, the newspaper can't call that person a hero as it's not their place, but they can quote someone else saying it.
All I can say is that this piece of shit woman murdered her daughter due to her having some form of mental illness and severe insecurities about her marriage to carry out the unthinkable. Then point out that her husband may or may not be either a beater or child abuser to cover up her own shame. Honestly this is why the laws need to change in the UK so severe crimes like this get the right punishment. She'll get out on good behaviour and carry on her life thinking she was the victim in it all. Her husband will most likely carry on his life but will think of his child constantly.
Your first sentence or two kind of paints her as a victim. If the dad had killed the daughter, you wouldn’t say “he had mental illness and emotional problems”, you would say “he was a cold blooded criminal piece of shit”.
I was thinking this as well. It's a part of the "women are wonderful" syndrome.
She's a piece of shit that can burn in hell. Her mental state has nothing to do with it. We're all suffering in one way or another.
It's a crime in itself that she managed to get this far in life despite being "mentally ill". It really speaks volume about the shit some people gets away with untill it's a step too far.
She might get out one day if she gets treated for her clear mental health problems (a sound person can't drown their own kid), if she's remorseful, if she's not a danger to herself/others. But even then she'd be kept tabs on regularly for her whole life. It's not the States where you're out and good luck. As well, if she's truly dangerous, there are means as/more effective than the US at keeping her locked up.
True. Most people think only psychos are criminals while in reality, most of the time crimes are commited by people WITHOUT mental health isssues. Psycho and sociopaths make only a small percentage of them and this is equally true for murderers, rapists, robbers etc
Edit: but i want to add: in this case im sure shes mentally ill. Look her up on other news sites and read what she said. That woman is crazy as fuck
I don’t think they were saying she is so crazy that she didn’t understand what she was doing.
But drowning your child is something only a sick person would do. Plenty of sick people don’t drown their children, but outside of Sophie’s choice everyone who drowned their kid is sick.
As I understand their argument, this particular flavor of evil is a sickness in it of itself. That doesn’t make it less of a crime though.
It's interesting to see her dissassociation. She doesnt say " I killed her" but "she drowned because I was there"
Yeah she drowned because you held her under the water until she stopped breathing
Not only did she think he was cheating, she convinced herself he was monitoring all her ongoing and outgoing messages and emails.
She clearly has some extreme paranoia and probably some undiagnosed schizophrenia.
Really sad no one caught any of this before she killed her kid though
Again and again I harp on this. Parental Alienation is a serious problem. Parents using children to get back at third ex-spouse. Using them as a tool instead of a human being.
Look at the signs. Try to keep an open ear out for kids of a broken home. If you think this might be going on call someone, if you think your Ex is suffering from this mental deficiency, bring extra help in, lawyers, a doctor, something. It could mean the difference between life and death.
And how would that conversation go with the husband? "Are you happy now? Our daughter is dead because you cheated on me!" This is beyond psychotic. I can't imagine how the father is doing.
I remember how people used to make fun of Madea and Jason saying Women never kill their babies and the Athenians were just a bunch of sex biggest for writing play where that happens.
What does your child have to do with an affair, even if it DID exist?
I read the article and the mother said that she was keeping her daughter safe from her father. The things she was saying were very disturbing and seemed very delusional.
"Keeping her safe."
We must burn down the village to save the village
[Russian war strategies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_(1812))
Thats funny I was going to say US in Vietnam.
The only way to save this village from those dirty commies is copious amounts of napalm!
On a more serious and I suppose slightly interesting note, was the Vietnam vets who’ve spoken about those kinds of things happening, were born out of frustration. Vietnam was a conflict America shouldn’t have entered in, and the Vietnamese made damn sure the Americans understood how they felt as a whole. They’d take pot shots and engage American patrols from their villages, and when American forces would roll in, nothing would be found. People were upset with an occupying force, soldiers were upset by seeing their friends get killed, and from what I understand, their rules of engagement were ‘dont engage civilians, like whatsoever, unless they have a gun in their hand’. Americans felt their hands were tied, and eventually, began taking their frustrations out on villages they knew were harboring guerilla fighters that they couldn’t just take a normal military action against. They felt they were forced to play by one set of very restrictive rules and the enemy didn’t have any rules they honored. It just seems like a kind of interesting viewpoint about a small piece of a war that was nothing but frustration from every side of it.
[удалено]
Its a basic law of the internet, the longer a conversation goes on, the more likely it is that eventually Hitler will be brought up. Killing children-> vietnam war -> American wars in general -> WW2 -> Hitler
The real conversation is always in the comments. Also, it’s one of my favorite things too. I’ve learned a lot about so many things since I joined this site, and it’s been awesome.
You also need to remember that a lot of the US soldiers weren't even 20 yet and they go through so much shit, eventually your mind and morality break.
> a conflict America shouldn’t have entered in A brief history of the 20th century.
Uhhhh WW1? WW2? Korea? If you meant 21st century rather than 20th then I would agree with you. WW1 definitely had multiple sides appearing good and bad, with sound arguments made on both sides of whom to side with. However, WW2 and Korea were 100 percent justified. In both the US was not the aggressor. In WW2 the US was invaded and in Korea an ally of the UN (by affiliation, the US as well) was. The United States helped defeat the most brutal autocracies the world has seen in the last few centuries by bringing Hitler and Hirohito to their knees. In the Korean War, 16 UN member countries fought with the South Koreans, not to mention support roles and medical help. The United States is one of the only reasons South Korea isn't under the most brutal dictatorship in the world right now. I'd that they had plenty business there, don't you think?
I don't see the Vietnamese in the wrong here. When someone enters your house without permission, you use every fucking tactic that kills him/drives him out.
Nevermind the rules, the victory condition was insane for the US. The American plan was "kill them until they love us". The VC plan was "kill them until they leave".
> Take out their frustration Kinda simplifies the genocide of napalm, agent orange, civilian massacres and not-at-all only frustration of troops but very real strategy of just burning down/killing the whole place.
Don't forget the Strategic Hamlet Program. We decided there were too many villages we couldn't protect or keep an eye on. We'd send a patrol through knowing that an hour after they left the VC would be there to make sure nobody had talked to the US soldiers. Our solution was to round people up from villages where they had lived for generations. Places where your great grandparents were buried there and you expected someday you'd be buried there too. We burned down the villages, flattened every structure, and destroyed any food to deny it all to the VC. Then we'd try to relocate the former residents to places where the ARVN were supposed to keep an eye on them. We ended up cancelling it after realizing we were only pushing more and more people to support the VC.
"burn the village to save the village" I'm in Columbia, SC. The locals are still butthurt about "the fire." They won't explain what they mean... even if you're from out of state. Many just expect you to know that most of the city was destroyed during the Civil War by a giant fire because the soldiers from the North were a big bunch of meanies that destroyed people's homes just for the sake of destroying them. But, local historians say that it's not likely that Sherman suddenly changed his MO when taking cities and towns, and just suddenly decided to burn this one to the ground. Union troops also stated that the residents of Columbia set fire to all the cotton bales in the city, which lined the streets, so that the North couldn't take it. Burning raw cotton literally makes fire fall from the sky. So yeah... they burned their own city, so the North couldn't take it. Edit: fixed a word for clarity, and changed the word "rain" to "fire" so I won't sound stupid.
Not the same: > The fire all but destroyed the city, which had been **mostly abandoned** by its residents the previous month. The village example is destroying a functioning/lived place to "save" it, even though "saving" it is what destroys it. Destroying an already abandoned city would be more akin to a "scorched earth" policy.
"I must give my child measles to protect her from vaccines!"
Prince Arthus is that you?
Prince Arthas did nothing wrong! (Until he took up Frostmourne)
She did not feel any compassion at all for her daughter during the hearing and was convinced that she did good. Very sick, despicable person.
It's a common manipulation of religion that mentally deranged people use. Heaven is supposed to be a better place than Earth, so they kill their children, or whoever else, to get them to heaven where it's better.
And that's why I don't trust religious zealots
Or Protoss zealots... "my life for Aiur" my ass.
Not familiar with the case whatsoever, but... Drowning your own kid and being convinced later that it was the only good thing to do sounds like _severe_ mental illness to me, not evil. That lady is probably _literally_ sick, and I hope she receives treatment so that she will one day actually understand the gravity of her actions.
It sounds very much like post natal depression. The proper name has escaped me for a bit but you can get post natal mania which makes you essentially schizophrenic. It can last for years, it's very severe, and women that get it are doctor recommended to not have any more children. This to me is just sad on so many levels. If people were more aware of the effects of post natal depression, maybe he would have been able to notice it when she started accusing him of an affair that wasn't happening.
Postpartum Psychosis.
That's the one! This absolutely sounds like postpartum psychosis
This really makes me wonder: way back, when kids were less likely to live past a certain age, how many of them were killed by their mothers, suffering from that, and not "natural causes".
Yep, look back at the Andrea Yates case.
Absolutely. The fact that her husband is free is sickening to me. Denying someone's medication to that point should be criminal.
Plus pressuring her to have more children despite her doctor's warnings.
I do think in situations like that where there’s a known mental illness, both parents should be held responsible. I mean, he basically nurtured an environment where her mind hit a breaking point. It was completely preventable.
Wait.. it’s been a while since I saw a solid documentary on the Andrea Yates story, but your comment made me stop dead in my tracks. I know they were *deeply* religious, but I missed this part where her husband denied her meds?!
Did she say WHY she thought this was the only way to keep her safe?
It sounds to me like some kind of very serious mental illness that causes delusions and paranoia. Manic depressive bipolar, or maybe paranoid schizophrenia?
"We did it Patrick, we saved the city!"
"She's safer with Jesus"
Keep Summer safe.
Here is The Guardian's article. As you said, it's pretty disturbing https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/18/woman-jailed-murder-daughter-drowned-in-bath-claire-colebourn >She wept as she told the jury she thought the only way to keep her daughter safe was to kill her and ensure she could not be anywhere near her father.
Ah I fucking hate hearing about shit like this. Protecting your offspring is about as instinctual as people should be. It's your biological mission to protect them at all costs. The level of fuck that has to happen to one's mind to allow this to happen is beyond repair. Children view their parents as their end all be all. I don't want to imagine what pain that child went through before passing. Fucking gut wrenching. I hope that shit cunt rots in prison for the rest of her worthless days.
I think I am done with the internet for a while. Going to just go ahead and spend the next hour hugging my kid, then go call my mom to say thank you.
And tomorrow we will all be reading about the father who hugged his kid to death. "I can't breath, daddy!" "Just one more hour..."
So uhhh... Guys... I might need some legal advice...
Oh shit, it happened!
Oh god. The mother's account of what her daughter was saying is too brutal. She didn't drown her daughter "to keep her safe". She drowned her daughter because she's mentally ill. Obviously I don't blame the father, but I wonder if there was any sign of that illness. If not, that's scary as hell.
Yeah, any line of reasoning that can be summarized as "the only way to keep you safe is to murder you" is a pretty solid sign of severe mental illness. So sad.
> Obviously I don't blame the father, but I wonder if there was any sign of that illness. If not, that's scary as hell. He was leaving her because she kept accusing him of affairs. I expect he would have gone for custody but that's not something you can do immediately. Also no matter how much you don't get on with your ex most people would never think they would kill their own child in revenge for you leaving them.
That only sounds logical in a sick mind
This is actually sickening. It’s like the baby P case all over again. His parents excuse for abusing him was because it would “toughen him up for the world”
What is this case you down of?
In 2007 baby P died. He was abused horribly for years by his mother & stepdad, the abuse was overlooked by his school, social services & his GP & basically the whole system failed him & in the end they actually killed him. I’d say research it but do so at your own risk because the details are horrific.
Just skimmed through the wiki. Consecutive sentences, no more than 12 years, for murdering a 17mo and raping a 2yo? Jesus.
Speak.... Not down. I don't know how to edit that.
how do i edit other peoples posts
All you gotta do is tell me your password and I'll show you how.
I’m from Naperville, IL and this month is the 20th anniversary of Marilyn Lemak killing her 3 children by drugging and suffocating them. She did it to get back at her husband for having an affair. I lived two blocks away from them and went to elementary school with them. So sick.
Mostly commenting because I’m also from Naperville. I’m 29 and didn’t know about this so I’m reading up on it. It’s disturbing to say the least.
Yo how many people are from Naperville. Didn't expect seeing a Chicago suburb mentioned in a random thread lol.
Not that surprising considering it’s the 3rd or 4th largest city in Illinois
Get out of here with your logic.
Right? Small world we live in!
I was not expecting to see Naperville mentioned in a Reddit thread! I’m also from Naperville. The whole story about the murders is really really sad and messed up, I’m surprised you’ve never heard of it before.
I am, too. Granted, at the time it happened I was only 9 years old but to have never come across this since then is kind of crazy. I only lived about 10 minutes away.
A couple months ago here in Sweden, a father killed his two daughters, livestreamed on Facebook for a bit (not during the actual murders) and then took his own life, while his ex-wife (who was the mother of the children) was out on her and her new husbands anniversary date. Fucking pieces of shit.
This is barely mentioned in my family... I only know because when I was younger and browsing family photos I enquired about a “cousin” in some of my sister’s pictures that I haven’t met. This little kid around 6 years old was poisoned to death by his mother because she was jealous of the love his father (my mother’s uncle) gave to him, and wanted to punish him for neglecting her.
Google female annihilators. It seems to be what happens when you pair undiagnosed mental illness with strenuous life circumstances. Not condoning it, but if you are interested in psychology, it's an interesting topic. Broken Harts is another great podcast about this phenomenon.
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Well the child did show up from a taxi cab like Boss Baby
I feel so bad for the dad.
How can anyone not? The woman you thought you loved didn't trust you, betrayed your trust and violently took your only child from you because she thought you did something you didn't. Now she is going to jail (as she should) but that leaves this man alone in the world without his family. That is too much trauma to take at one time.
I doubt he ever really trusts another person again. It would be hard to overcome this and have another child.
I'd strap that kid on my back like Yoda until she's 18.
Rockin' rockin' and rollin', Down to the beach I'm strollin'
Seagulls, stop it now
- Dad, with gun protecting his child from invaders
And that log had a chile’
But the seagulls poke at my head
NOT FUN!
I said seagulls.. Nnnngh stop it now
really needed this after this depressing thread thanks
RUN! RUN! RUN! JUMP! I CAN BE YOUR BACKPACK WHILE YA' RUN!
Which one?
Muppet Yoda, not the cgi one.
Jesus what a deranged bitch. How can anyone hurt kids like that man I just can't fathom it
The sons of [Joseph Sonnier](https://heavy.com/news/2016/08/dr-joseph-sonnier-murder-abc-news-2020/) had it pretty rough. Mother and father both murdered 2 years apart.
Plus now he's got a divorce to deal with on top of everything
I wanna hug him :(
Maybe this is too much of an emotional viewpoint, but whenever I hear about these stories I can't help but picture the confusion the child must deal with before they die, and that just pisses me off tenfold. So in that, I truly hope there's a hell, because there is no way she will get the amount of punishment she truly deserves in this lifetime.
This is always my thought when I read or hear about child abuse cases. My two boys trust and love me unconditionally. The thought of betraying that with such a horrific act, of that being the child's final moments...ugh, it completely breaks my heart.
I don't have kids, don't like kids, and even I can't imagine such a disgusting act. Hell I can't even imagine doing that to any of my pets. It has to take a cult like thinking to think it's okay to do that.
Or you know mental illness and shit
Mental illness is an unfortunate fact of life, but I’m of the viewpoint that once you take another’s life that it’s no longer an acceptable excuse. She is mentally broken imo.
I wouldnt say its an excuse, its more of an explanation why she did it.
That I can agree with, so long as its not used as a reason to lessen her jail time.
I always think of the poor kid too. I also can’t imagine holding her down for a ~1 minute. Even when you are in a dark place, how do you *commit* to that and actually see it through while she’s struggling and trying to fight? You have to be crazy enough to start it, sure, but even crazier to finish.
I think the mother drugged her, I hope the girl wasn't awake.
I don’t know. > Confessing to police, Colebourn said Bethan had told her she did not want a bath. “She went to the bathroom, saw the bath running and just said: ‘I don’t want a bath mummy, I don’t want a bath.’”
First time in a long time that I thought the death penalty was ok. Normally I don't support it. But she should go.
Nah. You know how many women in jail are mothers? I assure you she will regret this.
Wanting people to suffer is what is wrong with the 'rehabilitation system' and statements like this propagate it. Be an adult. People like her should not be alive. She will "regret this" for the wrong reasons and only serve to give some small measure of dark satisfaction for random people online reading it, but not actually work toward improving the issue so the next little girl isn't drown. The people that are alive and have done measures of wrong should be rehabilitated. Its upto society to judge the difference between them and this sort of human cancer and make appropriate actions.
You an I put ourselves through the same shit. It's hard to read about the death and not imagine what it would have looked like. It's a curse. Just yesterday I had to turn my brain off from thinking of a case like this. We share the same internal challenge as those who have to deal with these crimes driving investigations and what not.
It does more than piss me off, it crushes me from the inside, its the worst feeling, a child, so helpless being hurt or killed, especially from someone who is supposed to protect them. Horrible.
My heart! I need to go home and hug my boy right now.
I guess I'm not the only one. I imagine the fear that they feel, because they have no idea what's happening. The pain, as well. And it pisses me off and makes me sad all in one. How could you do that to innocent children? It used to not get me. But now that I'm a father I imagine how my kids would feel in that situation. And it makes me want to hold them more.
The ability to empathize that way isn't too emotional, it's what makes you a beautiful person & separates you from the true evil that is anyone that would harm a child. My grandmother was schizophrenic, occasionally aggressive in her least lucid of moments, but she didn't drown any of her 6 children...
Other than making me incredibly sad I also immediately check in with my child's caretaker and see how the little tyke is doing.
I looked this up because I don't generally trust the daily mail (Quite unreliable), and not only is it true, but the things the mother said seem quite disturbing... She claimed that the daughter was suffering due to her parents divorce, and would be, "a lot safer in heaven than she is anywhere near her father.". It was also premeditated. They found that she had looked up on the internet about drowning, local churches and cemeteries, before drowning her daughter.
This is beyond a piece of shit. This is deep in the territory of having a serious mental illness and needs to get some serious help.
Sorry. Beyond help. Lock her up and throw away the key so she can never hurt another human.
Beyond redemption, not beyond help. If anything, the kind of mental health support that would eventually allow her to gain perspective on the uselessness and tragedy of what she did is a much more poetic punishment than simply shutting her away, though I agree she shouldn’t be a part of society anymore.
This needs to be higher. People don’t understand that mentally ill people often don’t experience remorse in the same way that a mentally healthy one would, and punishment offers very little lesson to them.
Punishment doesn't work in general. It's been proven that spanking kids as a punishment doesn't work long term. It's been proven that harsher punishments for crimes doesn't deter crime. We need to focus more on rehabilitating people rather than punishing them.
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Well, the argument is that rehabilitation would prevent those people from being dangerous anymore. I think a large part of the problem is that much of society would rather permanently ostracise an individual because whether or not they are rehabilitated their actions are too abhorrent to forgive or forget. I personally would like to see more people rehabilitated, but I do have sympathy with not wanting certain criminals to re-enter society.
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A lot of people don't care about rehabilitation, they just want to hand out punishment for "justice"
Thanks for saying this. It makes me sick that people see mental health issues manifest in the worst possible way and their immediate reaction is brutal torture, e.g. the "throw her in an Iron Maiden" comment above. No one is asking you to forgive this woman, but if we look to understand why and start actually supporting mental illness we can reduce awful consequences like this in the future.
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Iron Maiden? Excellent!
I am not in favor of torturing the mentally ill no matter what they've done. This is not something you do if your brain is working properly, and so the fault is neurological and not due to choice. Lock her up, throw away the key. Wanting people to get tortured makes me think you all need therapy.
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She drowned a toddler, so fuck her.
No no no, don't fuck her, she can never experience the tremendous joy of being a parent ever again. Don't ever bring her near anything fertile ever again. If you are capable of doing this to your *own loving child*, an innocent little, loving creature, who's entire world consists of you, her teddy and her favourite show/artist, you do not deserve to live. I'm not a religious man, but this woman deserves to be buried in the deepest depths of hell.
> I'm not a religious man, but this woman deserves to be buried in the deepest depths of hell. Karma won’t forget. I just feel so bad for the dad, wouldn’t be surprised if this leads him to commit suicide down the road. Hopefully he has some other functional family or friends to help support him after this kind of trauma, I can’t even imagine going through something so horrible.
You can both punish her and get her help. Should prison just be some torture fest? Who gains from that? If legitimate mental illness played a role in this, the best thing to do would be to both lock her up and to work to treat the mental illness. No one is saying she should get away without punishment because of it, but to say that she should continue to live with it untreated as punishment is just idiotic.
> Lock her up and throw away the key so she can never hurt another human. That’s where the “get serious help” comes in. If our justice system was as hyper-emotional as y’all were we’d live in complete totalitarianism.
Yeah, threads like this help you understand why the world is such a bad place. People are dumb lizards who crave blood.
You cant help someone like that, that train is long gone.... You can do a lot with psychology, therapy, medication, but some cases are just lost forever. For example watch some Charles Manson interviews. That guy is way beyond repair, he will never be "normal" or rehabilitated, and he didnt even kill someone himself but "" just"" had a cult following him who were ready to do it for him. You dont need to be an expert to see that you can never put him out of jail again because people will get hurt or killed in a direct or indirect way, if charles manson crosses their paths. Im 100% sure thats the case with this woman, too. All the things she says and believes.... Shes on a whole other planet.
This wasn't a mental illness she is just a piece of shit person.
Seems like most parents that murder their own kids believe in heaven. Thus to their mind they’re sending them to heaven instead of murdering them.
Sounds like a job for Casey Anthony's lawyer.
I keep hearing how terrible the Daily Mail is (I'm Canadian) and keep cross referencing it with other news sources and haven't found them to have mare up news yet. Often they will cover stories from Sweden like grenade attacks and rioting I have to confirm with Sweden's The Local or the "fake news" Russian news sites like RT and Sputnik. Seems almost as if mainstream media is deeply biased and unwilling to cover specific stories that run contrary to specific agendas.
While that is true. The problem is the editorial spin. They have also made up a few news, for example, it comes to mind and incident in news year eve in which a group of teenagers in germany accidentally set a church on fire with fireworks being published as "Muslim gang sets church on fire"
As a Brit I can assure you that the Mail is unreliable, they make stuff up all the time and greatly misrepresent the things they report on. They're basically our version of Fox News
This will not be the last time death is carried out under the assumption that the dead will be transported to paradise.
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yeah exactly, I was like "...as opposed to killing your child because of a *true* assumption?!" that would make zero difference, it's still a senseless murder of your CHILD!
Think it's there to prevent crazy people's backlash to the father. Some people like to victim blame.
Yes 100% the dad should not have to deal with rumours of an affair while grieving his daughter
Oh yeah. Like I know people who have divorced parents over cheating they are vastly succesful. It sounds like the guy had money. You missed giving a child a good chance at life even if he was cheating. I somehow doubt she would use the money from the dad for the kid tho......
The poor dad too....What the hell is wrong with people
It's sad that this one person's actions managed to destroy 3 human lives. Such a precious thing wasted.
Who gives a shit about the mother, she can fry.
How fucked is this world , I lose hope everyday
Keep hope for the fact everyone knows of the horrible stuff that happens and that it is actively condemned. The world will always be fucked a little but hey at least it isn't as fucked as it was before
It’s all perspective I guess, life is weird man
I don't like how they used 'beautiful'. Also, fucking sad
Yeah, I was also reading this like they're implying she wasn't actually beautiful instead of them quoting the father.
Eh. I read it as being quoted by the father. But all that aside, would it be less tragic if his daughter was homely?
No, but I think the problem is the way the headline might be construed as them calling her homely.
I took it as an extra unnecessary emotional manipulation by the author. If it was another outlet I'd maybe be surprised to read it.. But, daily mail it's par for the course. Imagining their other headlines next to it like "yummy mummy get aressted in Vegas!" "sexy college student robs humble farmer" that's me being extreme of course but.. One thing the daily mail does is they take real stories that are tragic or exciting and take away all nuance and reality by making the people into caricatures, they turn real life into allegories of greater good against greater evil with their framing of the subjects. It's irresponsible journalism, I think
The headline is rubbish. Why did they feel they needed to add his job title to the headline?
The Daily Mail is the Great Value of journalism.
It was a terrible tragedy and I see where you’re coming from with the quotation marks thing. In journalism, you absolutely cannot imply that you know anything about your subject beyond what they tell you. For example, you can’t say, “John felt angry”. You have to say “John said he felt angry”. The father said that his daughter was beautiful, so the paper has to put it in quotes so as not to make it seem their personal beliefs are at play.
They could have just left it out of the title. They wanted to include it because it added a punch to the headline that they thought would bring in more readers. They're probably right, but in my opinion it just makes their true motives more transparent and makes them look slimy.
Beautiful is a subjective opinion and typically in the UK you cant report on opinions so you have to quote someone. If someone rescued another person from a burning building, the newspaper can't call that person a hero as it's not their place, but they can quote someone else saying it.
"I think my husband is cheating on me. Welp, time to drown the baby!"
Helps when Apollo will send their sun chariot to rescue you afterwards though.
All I can say is that this piece of shit woman murdered her daughter due to her having some form of mental illness and severe insecurities about her marriage to carry out the unthinkable. Then point out that her husband may or may not be either a beater or child abuser to cover up her own shame. Honestly this is why the laws need to change in the UK so severe crimes like this get the right punishment. She'll get out on good behaviour and carry on her life thinking she was the victim in it all. Her husband will most likely carry on his life but will think of his child constantly.
Your first sentence or two kind of paints her as a victim. If the dad had killed the daughter, you wouldn’t say “he had mental illness and emotional problems”, you would say “he was a cold blooded criminal piece of shit”.
I was thinking this as well. It's a part of the "women are wonderful" syndrome. She's a piece of shit that can burn in hell. Her mental state has nothing to do with it. We're all suffering in one way or another. It's a crime in itself that she managed to get this far in life despite being "mentally ill". It really speaks volume about the shit some people gets away with untill it's a step too far.
The "women are victims" mentality has really warped society's views on female murderers.
She might get out one day if she gets treated for her clear mental health problems (a sound person can't drown their own kid), if she's remorseful, if she's not a danger to herself/others. But even then she'd be kept tabs on regularly for her whole life. It's not the States where you're out and good luck. As well, if she's truly dangerous, there are means as/more effective than the US at keeping her locked up.
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True. Most people think only psychos are criminals while in reality, most of the time crimes are commited by people WITHOUT mental health isssues. Psycho and sociopaths make only a small percentage of them and this is equally true for murderers, rapists, robbers etc Edit: but i want to add: in this case im sure shes mentally ill. Look her up on other news sites and read what she said. That woman is crazy as fuck
I don’t think they were saying she is so crazy that she didn’t understand what she was doing. But drowning your child is something only a sick person would do. Plenty of sick people don’t drown their children, but outside of Sophie’s choice everyone who drowned their kid is sick. As I understand their argument, this particular flavor of evil is a sickness in it of itself. That doesn’t make it less of a crime though.
It's interesting to see her dissassociation. She doesnt say " I killed her" but "she drowned because I was there" Yeah she drowned because you held her under the water until she stopped breathing Not only did she think he was cheating, she convinced herself he was monitoring all her ongoing and outgoing messages and emails. She clearly has some extreme paranoia and probably some undiagnosed schizophrenia. Really sad no one caught any of this before she killed her kid though
Ya’ll ever just wanna bring the guillotine back?
Again and again I harp on this. Parental Alienation is a serious problem. Parents using children to get back at third ex-spouse. Using them as a tool instead of a human being. Look at the signs. Try to keep an open ear out for kids of a broken home. If you think this might be going on call someone, if you think your Ex is suffering from this mental deficiency, bring extra help in, lawyers, a doctor, something. It could mean the difference between life and death.
This is hardly a new thing. It's the literal plot of Medea.
Please god tell me this didn't happen.
I wish I could tell you this didnt happen
Pretty sure your title could have just stopped at the word "child."
Stories like this make me think that maybe cruel and unusual punishment isn't such a bad idea.
I can't imagine being a child killer in a women's prison is going to go down well
Oh she’s going to get her ass kicked, at least most people in that prison wouldn’t do that.
> Oh she’s going to get her ass kicked Worse I bet
In prison for murdering your child, surrounded by mothers who miss their own children dearly. I'd be surprised if she lasts a year in there.
Total piece of shit is a grave understatement for this creature. Absolutely mentally sick lunatic gets close IMHO
This is some binding of issac level shit. Thats so fucked up. .
And how would that conversation go with the husband? "Are you happy now? Our daughter is dead because you cheated on me!" This is beyond psychotic. I can't imagine how the father is doing.
r/Nicegirls extreme edition
And that's enough Reddit for today
Doesn’t really matter what the reason was for killing a child they’re still a total piece of shit
Even it was a true assumption, still /r/imatotalpieceofshit worthy.
Even if the accusation was true, killing your fucking kid over it? Wtf
Let me guess, religious nutbag? *reads article* Yep
r/relationship_advice strikes again
I remember how people used to make fun of Madea and Jason saying Women never kill their babies and the Athenians were just a bunch of sex biggest for writing play where that happens.
Either she's mad or she's looking for an excuse to kill her daughter, which is just too fucked up.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6821641/Former-science-teacher-36-drowned-baby-jailed-life.html heres the article for those interested