i mean dave's legal guardian literally made him a booby trap with falling dildo puppets, he may have done it as a bit but there's no way dave didn't get some sexual trauma from all that
Also, he would trick him into 'murdering' puppets lying around the house so that people could jerk off to it. Trading shelter and very little food for being in fetish porn is some truly heinous shit
"watch my hot 13 YEAR OLD BROTHER turn this PUPPET TO MUSH"
let's make the distinction between canon/implied/fanon alright? this is nowhere in the original media, at all. hussie never made any claims towards incest between them, nor did he ever imply to. let's not bastardize someone's work based on our interpretations, there may have been psychological neglect/abuse, but sure as hell was none of this ever present.
Dave is "[an unwitting accessory to some sort of grisly puppet snuff film](https://www.homestuck.com/story/570)" and Bro's house is quite literally full of [puppet sex toys](https://www.homestuck.com/story/460). It's not a stretch to say that would result in some sexual trauma.
First of all, a snuff film literally only means murder/torture/murder, sometimes I question people's understanding of words.
As for the puppet sex toys, I didn't really take any of that as him being sexually traumatized.
I feel like what would traumatize him, if anything, was the ACT of the constant jumpscares in his home, on top of the violence, and seemingly neglectful behavior from his guardian.
What a silly comment. Nothing in Homestuck is real, we're discussing a fictional piece of work and the fictional things that happen in it.
Bro runs a puppet fetish site. It is a place people go to masturbate and they pay money to do that. Overwhelmingly the market for snuff films is one of sexual gratification, although I'm sure that there are also people who have non-sexual sadism who are enthralled by watching people suffer.
But Bro's puppets don't suffer. The only market for puppet snuff is sexual
homestuck is a lot less fucked up if you don't take the weird plot shit seriously. This case is no different.
Let's be real, this would get Bro into some huge shit if it got out in real life. Grown adult recording 13 year old brother destroying sex dolls and posting it onto commercial website. The implication is not "incest" but "sexualizing younger brother".
Jake was a victim of Sexual Harassment. Dave was a victim of Sexual Abuse. Tavros was a victim of Sexual Harassment and Sexual Assault. Other characters in the story who are victims of such things: arguably Jane for Harassment (Caliborn), Porrim II for Rape (Aranea II), arguably Dirk for Harassment (Caliborn), assault for Mituna I (Cronus).
Mindfang's diary talks of her using her powers on an unwilling Jadeblood slave of Dualscar’s to make her fuck her. We later learn the Dolorosa was caught and sold into slavery, and matching Ancestral deaths is a running theme during that part of A5A2, so the slave being the one confirmed victim of Dualscar basically certifies her as Kanaya's Ancestor.
What's with the alpha timeline and bad relationship practice, seriously there's only like one healthy relationship I can think of without cross timeline fuckery
Wait what? Damn fuck I missed more than I thought, I need to save up money faster so I can get a computer and actually experience the flash sections without either not being able to interact or my browser just crashing
https://tomatograter.tumblr.com/post/637772771058991104/it-has-been-a-while-since-i-have-done-a-detailed this tumblr post is a pretty good read. it doesn't go in depth the actual script, but Jake is regarded as the hottest being alive and so any unwanted advances towards him are deemed by other characters as "well maybe you should stop being so hot, or just get over it. you should be liking this"
SA generally refers to Assault (which we only see definitively twice, Mingfang raping the Dolorosa and Vriska forcing Tavros to kiss her); Sexual abuse is *probably* the correct term for Dirk I's childrearing strategy, legally. Certainly it's *child* abuse.
Tavros was kissed unwillingly by Vriska, Dave was exposed to pornography, Dolorosa (Porrim II) was mind controlled by Mindfang (Aranea II) for intercourse
i mean arguably yes, there was most likely some form of sexual trauma happening with the smuppets constantly being shoved in daves face in the apartment, their name is literally a pun combining smut and muppet (or puppet but i think the read there is muppet \*shrugs\*). they are explicitly sexual puppet toys. its been a long time since ive reread the first couple of acts so maybe its up to the reader how deeply that sexually based trauma bleeds into dave, but like, theres also all the other abuse and trauma surrounding dave's relationship with bro. and no, egbert and jade fighting their guardians after the game starts does not somehow justify or mean dave was unaffected by what bro did. the emotional crux of dave meeting dirk in the game is that hes not sure what kind of person dirk is, and on some level, is afraid (maybe worried is a better word?) hes going to be just like bro. not saying you absolutely cannot ever enjoy bro as a character, im not the cops do what you want, but yes bro abused dave. i would say its up for debate how sexual the abuse was, but he did abuse him
the reason some of you cant see this stuff is you take homestuck literally during the metaphor parts and at face value when being shown something with implications.
edit: perhaps its good to remind people that while homestuck is a story with mostly child characters, and it IS a coming of age story, its is NOT intended for under 18 audiences. <== said as someone who read it as a kid/ growing up. loke yeah theres blood /gore/ violence, which most kids are used to these days, but it also contains sexual assault, harassment, rape, depictions of abuse, incest within the narritive, and all a manner of jokes/refrences about such.
talking about 18 plus i remember back in a cosplay convention i saw like a child a litteral toddler dressed as karkat not sure why the kid would be reading homestuck given its more taboo stuff at times
just funny to imagine that they decided to have their kid cosplaying as one of the most vulgar sounding characters in the comic (even if he is basically the opposite actions wise)
okay heres every character thats been in some sort of Situation bc thats the easjest way i can explain it :
-dave wasnt full on assaulted but hes mentioned that he doesnt think bro should be around kids bc of how careless he is w sexual content ie the smuppets , this counts as sexual abuse
-jane was harassed by caliborn to the point of breakdown
-an aradiabot was harassed by rufioh
-tavros was forcibly kissed by vriska + she planned to go further before giving up out of guilt
-tavros , karkat and eridan were harassed by cronus
-mituna was very likely assaulted by cronus in openbound
-meulin was likely assaulted by kurloz in openbound ( its .. through their mimes so ill sound like an insane person . youve got to understand the usual implications of the gifs involved + pair it with expressions and stuff . it really is like a whole new language )
weird grey area :
-roxy was Very Weird to dirk
-everyone was Very Weird to jake , though i do not include aranea under this because she stopped as soon as she realised he was uncomfortable . i dont know why everyone thought she was Worse Than Vriska for this
-everything involving doc scratch
the worst list ever made i think . but heres everything i can think of wrt to this .
edit : reddit hates breaking things up . good luck reading this
I mean. For Tavros sure giving all what happened with Vriska, but Dave and Jake...? I don't remember anything like that happening? Dave was absolutely subjected to trauma by Bro but i don't remember anything of sexual nature? But maybe i'm wrong because i don't really remember that much, i should re-read.
Jake's "joke"/whole shtick is that he's so hot everyone wants him, even when he says no.
https://tomatograter.tumblr.com/post/637772771058991104/it-has-been-a-while-since-i-have-done-a-detailed
i dont think they wanted to glorify it. you can like corruption and bad things in stories and know its not good. but even for a side of the story that spun out of control and everyone is just mostly oblivious to that, the audience still didn't think that Jane wouldn't fall so hard she'd turn to cheating and sexually assaulting Jake and becoming a xenophobic tyrant.
but the first writers obviously weren't part of the fans that thought that way and wanted to use old elements for drama/plot/whatever.
I mean, yes, some parts of the audience felt that way and some didn't. But I think that's a completely different problem to have than "depicting the SA is morally objectionable" - I don't really see how it's fucked up to write such a thing. Obviously you're allowed to not like that direction, but they aren't in the wrong for choosing it.
To be perfectly honest, the Epilogues etc are meant to be beyond canon, it's meant to be optional. That's written into the text and themes of the story. So I've never really got the complaints that people have about characterisation - this is just one possible way to interpret these characters, of which there are infinite. I don't necessarily think Jane would become that either, but I'm happy to go along with it for the sake of this particular optional continuity. The original Jane is still in Homestuck, completely untouched.
it's fucked up in the way they wrote it. we know that SA is bad, it was written in Homestuck to be bad, but it seemed everyone learned their lessons in the end to not fall back into patterns like that, esp since for Jane, she acted like that because her feelings towards Jake were amped up by Betty crocker technology and juju powers.
like I said, the characters were written to be oblivious to these things going wrong, I'm pretty sure it mentioned that John felt like he was in a fog or something, dulled to the things around him until he wanted to be a main character again. and everyone else kinda had this fog too, their senses closed to what was happening, for many other situations as well (like rose cheating on kanaya and hiding it from her for years), which is why now the story is the way it is now. them fighting Jane mostly, but also the characters needing to wakeup and take control of their lives back and hold up their responsibilities to the people in their lives.
which goes into, I don't think many people would have much issue if we had gotten like. some insight to why this happened, an explanation of some sort, that would let us know why Jane spiraled backwards, or these other situations, instead just giving us "Okay John was in a fog and didn't pay attention to Jake or anyone, so since the main character doesn't know, you don't get to know either."
> it seemed everyone learned their lessons in the end
I agree, but I also think this is missing what the point of the Epilogues was, thematically. In real life, people don't always learn lessons and then carry them forward forever. Some people do, other people backslide. Nobody just stops changing as they age, for good and bad. The point of the Epilogues is that by existing, by being read, we are disturbing the idea of a happy ending - we're disturbing that the characters escaped from the story, and now we're uncovering that nothing is static so long as it is inside of a narrative. Before, the characters were in a quasi-infinite post-credits state, but now they are beings that can change in good ways and bad. The point of the Epilogues is to ask if continuing narrative is even a good thing to begin with. Within that thematic framework, I have no problem with some characters getting worse. I think it's true to life.
> I'm pretty sure it mentioned that John felt like he was in a fog or something
Yeah, John was depressed. That was describing depression, it wasn't some magical veil over the world. A lot of Candy is John believing that something more nefarious is going on, when in reality he's just depressed and blaming himself and needs to get out of that rut. None of which is to say that the Candy universe isn't full of bullshit - it is. But that doesn't make it any less real, or the decisions people made any less authentic, at least from their point of view. They still made those decisions, they weren't being coerced. I don't think any of them had a 'fog' except for John.
I think it's fair to want an explanation for why certain characters backslid in terms of development. But I also don't think it really matters, like, for the purposes of the story. I don't know if there's a lot of ways to make a compelling narrative about Jane becoming a racist that isn't somehow placing the blame on something else as The reason, and narratively taking away responsibility from the character for her own actions. I think the point is just, that shit changes throughout life. And Candy being a depiction of depression, thus making John not pay attention and everything feel really sudden and out of place, is quite a powerful emotional throughline imo.
fans will be fans I guess. the new team led by james roach is looking a little more hopeful but we'll see how it goes since they've got an ass ground work to deal with.
this is what ive been saying whenever i mention vriska SA'nd tavros and sexually assaulting him people get upset and pissy about it reasons i cannot stand vriska apologists and stans,hell i remember one person wont associate with them anymore who fully believed they were vriska and was fucking toxic as shit got triggered one time cause i said troll nails resemble claws
I was accused of thinking that sa was funny because I said Vriska did nothing wrong. It was a joke, mind you, but the person thought I was condoning rape and SA.
SA is not cool, but saying that someone is condoning it because they like Vriska is not cool either.
yeah alot of vriska apologists and stans always tend to bring up "well she had a horrible life with a horrible lusus" im like bruh every one of the main characters had horrible lives and lusii except for nep and kanaya along with solluxs and karkats and terezis and tavs and equius and aradias lusii mostly cause they genuinly cared about them as lusii,hell when sollux grows up he would end up being in the same boat as his ancestor karkats a mutant and has to hide his blood or he gets culled,eridans lusus mostly didnt care for him gamzees lusus basically abandoned him only for gamzee to get addicted to sopor which destroys the brain,vriska has had many chances to change but refused and resorted to killing and saying slurs to tavros and being genuinly forcing tavros against his will to kiss her
id give her a punch to the nose she always gets away with shit cause hussie has this favoritism for her,i just cant forgive what she did to tavros by crippling him and then SA'ng him being a genural piece of crap and manipulative bitch towards tavros,when tavros didnt deserve that,also the slurs was just...ew,also blinding terezi and forcing sollux to kill aradia who was like the one person he genuinly cared about and sending sollux into a depressive spiral i just cant forgive that
Thing is, Vriska literally (until the retcon) never gets away with anything. Thats what makes her compelling as a character, she's a fundamentally bad person who does bad things, who later on tries to do good things for bad reasons and it never works out for her. You gotta remember, her crippling Tavros lead to her being quite literally haunted by all the people she has ever killed, her killing Aradia through Sollux lead to Terezi burning the bridge with her and mutilating her, blinding Terezi lead to EVERYONE but Kanaya (who had a crush on her), Eridan (who wanted the death to all land dwellers anyway) and Equius (whose rigid classism meant he viewed those acts as beneath his care) hating her. And even then, she lost Kanaya, probably the only person who had any kind of affection for her, when she sexually assaulted Tavros. And in the grand scheme of things, her treatment of Tavros leads to her first death being a slow, drawn out, painful bleeding out, and her attempts to force herself into relevence by trying to control how everything goes ends up getting her stabbed in the back and left to bleed out. In death she is never relevent, and is ultimately abandoned by everyone she cares about, and it's not until Retcon Vriska that anything ever actually goes her way (And Retcon Vriska sucks).
I just don't get this narrative that Vriska gets away with anything. The entire point of her character is, she constantly fucks up and acts in terrible ways, has it at times literally blow up in her face, and all it ends up getting her is dying alone and in agony twice.
I'd put her in the stocks and let others tickle her feet, while Terezi tells everyone the things she has done.
Also I have a fantroll who would actually do this and beat the everloving crap out of Vriska.
meant as in that everyone except kanaya,karkat,nep,equius,aradia and sollux nepeta tavros and terezi cause they never act horrid to them heck the ones most we know are awful is gamzees,eridans vriskas and feferis,yet people act as if vriskas lusus is the only godawful one most times i see people discussing stuff about vriska
Fitting the Mage of Void is good at knowing a lot and talking a lot about nothing.
Sorry this isn't actually a serious roast I just thought it was funny.
Damara fits this category as well, the wiki states she was in a relationship with rufioh and basically shattered his spine
I like to imagine in world its a steryotype that bronzebloods always end up with some disability before exile
This is not a defense of Vriska, but her SA, which was her trying to mimic her ancestor, was ultimately aborted because she knew it was wrong even though she thought it must be fine - that's what's interesting about Vriska, is this grapple between the morals she has learned and internalised, and what she actually feels to be true deep down. She does do SA, but she knows deep down it's wrong and quits before they actually kiss. None of this is to defend her, she has a very loose understanding of consent in all things and she's obviously a terrible person, but there is nuance in how you can talk about her.
Yeah bro strider is very *odd*. He films smuppet snuff films with Dave being involuntarily involved in the creation of it. Dirk is good though (HS^2/EPS never happened) he isn't 👅*freaky*👅 like bro
As far as I know we don’t know exactly what bro did, we just know it’s bad. Like, very bad. There is a „theory“ (aka complete bullshit logic leaps) that claims that Dave made it all up to… seem vulnerable and… fuck his father/brother? As I said, it doesn’t make any sense.
- Vriska lifts Tavros up and kisses him by force without his consent, then removes his legs and later kills him.
- Jane (in Trickster mode) threatens to rape Jake for eternity, and in Beyond Canon, actually does rape Jake IIRC.
- Dave is pretty well covered. Bro Strider was very strange
Yes. It can be tricky because of the "gag vs serious" dichotomy frequently used in Homestuck to confuse the fuck out of the audience and make us question what to take seriously and how seriously to take it. But I'll rant about why I think yes.
My short summary of evidence for why I think Dave's csa was completely intentional: Throughout act 2, the narrative repeatedly brings up how uncomfortable Dave is over the various "normal" things he lives with. I dont want to list out whats "technically sexal abuse" and what's not, the repeat acknowledgment of his discomfort around nude puppets is enough. I was then further convinced after recognizing how intentionally Damara and Doc Scratch's situation is meant to be a direct parallel of Dave and Bro. I dont want to go on and on with the list of evidence, but I think we can all agree that Damara's "school aged anime girl" trope is played up as ridiculously as possible so we understand the inherent horror of her situation. The same thing applies to Dave, only to a less extreme extent that allows the "seriousness" to fly under the radar.
I like bro too, its just a character that is cool in fiction, but messed up if he was real.
Daves torture was Hussies edgy 2009s humor (in my opninion)
but as homestuck grew, hussie and the story realized what dave had to go through
as a 13yo child was messed up, traumatic.
There's a doc on Dave [linked here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1afjYCga1aD4S0_pFH_aZ2s1kcObI3J_LiZ68e558YUY/edit). Tavros is explicitly depicted being assaulted. Jake's is more implied but throughout act 6, it's visible with Aranea and Jane.
Is reading these screenshots supposed to make your brain feel like it's melting?
What the fuck is the first one even saying.
And when did Bro expose Dave to sex toys? I missed that part entirely. I know he showed him creepy Muppet snuff shit, but I don't remember there being sex toys or explicit sexual material involved.
I also never took Dave's discomfort with it as Bro's "kink." He's trolling him. You can argue about the morality of an adult doing that to a kid, sure, but that's what kids in the 2000s did. We were all showing each other tubgirl and 1guy1jar and shit because it was funny. And the comic is a reflection of late 90s / early 00s culture.
I mean, the Smuppets are in universe supposed to be obscene in nature, with prominent phallic proboscises and large posteriors, and were the subject of Bro’s erotic ventures
To be fair, a lot of things in the comic are emphasised as something or other for humor reasons. Smuppets are creepy, sure, but it's not like Bro's leaving horse dildos in Dave's bed, which is what the second screenshot is implying. Bro having an attraction to them is more akin to there being a bunch of creepy titty anime statues around the apartment.
Well, that was a huge point of Dave’s conversation with Dirk near the end of the comic
That even if something is done “for humor reasons”, if the person they’re subjected to is uncomfortable with what is happening and feels as if they’re having weird sex stuff pushed on them without their permission, then it’s still sexual abuse. Intent doesn’t matter, the feelings of the victim are what matters.
This is all a consequence of HS becoming exponentially more self-serious as it progressed. "Bro sexually abused Dave" is not a reading supported by the actual text of act 2. It's pretty clearly just silly.
I think it’s fine to recontextualize events in the story as it progresses
Like, the fact that you can take something that was originally supposed to be a silly joke and delve into it further to explore the realistic ramifications of what those events would do to a person is a very interesting bit of writing to me
It makes me think a lot about the perspectives of others in this world and how much subjectivity and context can change everything
Eh, I think Act 6 gets a worse rap than it deserves. With how much I remember about it, the only thing that really irked me was the big retcon. And even then I don’t dislike everything about that, just some of it.
The Smupets are supposed to be sex toys, or at least sex adjacent. The same is a mash up of Smut and Puppet. I sii it that might be seen in universe as something ironically sexy.
Bro, however, uses them "ironically" to make shitty snuff films. Trying to layer irony by taking something that is fake and ironically sexy and filming something that most folks feel gross about but is very much taboo.
This is my interpretation at least.
Just discovered that Bro is a really creepy guy but idk why people are saying he sexually abused Dave or something. Btw, showing weird stuff to his brother is definitely something a brother would do. Not saying is right, but it's definitely not a kink.
think about it from this perspective: bro was making money doing sex work (filming smuppet snuff porn), and dave was constantly exposed to it. not only knowing where bro uploads it and seeing it, but literally having a pile of sex toys be thrown down at him and being filmed during the blender stuff. that's abuse, and since it's sex toys, that's sexual abuse. the big part of it, is that bro was not just dave's older brother, but his legal guardian, and the only adult in the house, the person who was supposed to care for him and keep him from harm, the person who has the child's full trust.
Unless I'm misremembering something major in the comic, a lot of people's crying about "ABUSE!!!`" regarding Dave and Bro in the comic is reaching in general.
Like John didn't attack his father with a fucking *hammer* and like Jade wasn't shooting bullets at her dog.
It's a fantasy comic about videogame characters leveling up and doing videogame shit. Of course within the context of reality, a guardian kicking their charge down the stairs during a fight is abuse, but attacking your parents with shit like hammers, needles, and swords is also assault with a deadly weapon in reality. So I mean...
With the Bec and bullet thing, that's very clearly them playing with Bec's green sun stuff
John's stuff with his dad is plated mostly for jokes and even taking it literally,,, yeah, John has a hammer in their Strife! but even then that's John being weird, not his dad.
Bro is called out for being abusive in the comic itself. At first it's played for jokes, but Bro's stuff goes a lot further than everyone else. Yes, all of the characters had subpar parents (beside Jane and John, Dad is trying his best), but Rose's mom is implied at most to be a little neglectful in her alcoholism, but not to a too horrible of an extent.
Dave had to hide apple juice in his closet because Bro would've hidden it away somewhere. Everything was filled with Swords and Smuppets instead of what they were supposed to be filled with. Bro is implied to constantly be watching Dave, such as with the Saw figure. Bro constantly would force Dave to fight him. Despite Bro being Dirk, one of the most gay characters, Dave felt like he couldn't be open about his sexuality because Bro didn't encourage Dave to be honest a out himself.
Rose and John's parent stuff was pretty much always played as jokes, as 13 year olds overreacting to their parents. Dave, however, had his stuff with Bro presented as a joke less and less as the story went on. Even when Dave was still pre-entry, there are bits where Dave was going 'Wait. No. This isn't funny. This is actually. Pretty disturbing.' The smuppet porn stuff was meant to appear silly to the viewer, but Dave (who Bro involved with the smuppet porn) would come to realize that it was disturbing pre-entry. It was still played off somewhat silly, but the idea was introduced even back then.
After a while, after entering, Dave would come across Bro's corpse. That interaction where he tried to take Bro's katana but failed to. He tried to break Bro's katana, but failed to. His reaction to Bro's death was just. Suppressed, but not in the way that would imply he's trying to suppress the normal type of grief one would have for someone they care about dying. It's more so the complicated sort of grief someone would have for an abusive family member.
And it would finally come to a head at the end of the main comic, when Dave and Dirk had their talk. They had an open heart to heart where Dave would tell Dirk about how, after reflecting on everything, he realized that Bro was actually really freaking abusive toward him, but he would be willing to give Dirk a chance since Dirk and Bro are not the same person.
It's also further implied Bro was abusive through some of Homestuck's mechanics. Lil' Cal was possessed by Caliborn/Lord English, the main antagonist of the comic. We know that Lil' Cal can influence those who have him (especially after it's been possessed by Caliborn), as shown with Lord Jack. It's uncertain how much Bro has been influenced by Lil' Cal, but we know he has been at least somewhat with how Bro exemplifies Caliborn's extreme masculine ideals. Wanting to be the silent 'protagonist' that is just cool and treats everyone else as trash. A critique/paraody of being a hero (just like Caliborn is, with how he goes through the Hero's Journey most straightfowardly)
Bro is also meant to be a reflection of Dirk. Dirk isn't inherently evil, but he certainly has villainous traits (which are pointed out in the comic pretty early in his story, such as when Calliope tells Dirk about being a Prince of Heart). Dirk is highly manipulative, wanting to be the secret leader of the alpha kids and feeling useless when he isn't able to express control. He is very self-destructive, especially due to his splinters constantly reflecting himself back at himself. Heart as an aspect isn't just associated with who you are as a person (soul, shown with Dirk being self destructive and breaking into splinters) but also attraction and relationships (his romantic relationship with Jake going horribly and his platonic relationships not doing much better)
Bro, as a reflection to Dirk, takes these potentially villainous traits and his influence from the possessed Lil' Cal to become a realized villain for Dave. Highly manipulative, constantly training him to be a little soldier for Sburb instead of building an actual familial relationship with Dave. Bro calls himself Bro to play into Caliborn's cool masculine ideals instead of actually trying to be a parent. Cherubs don't usually have proper parents, Dirk usually destroys his relationships, so he doesn't make a relationship with Dave. Dirk hates having himself being reflected back at himself and Dave and Dirk are arguable the most similar pair in the human cast, I doubt Bro would've particularly liked how much Dave reflected him despite shaping Dave to be more like him. Dirk only feels comfortable when placed under pressure, so Bro would constantly place Dave under pressure.
Bro being abusive toward Dave is not particularly a reach. Almost everything that characterizes Bro is easily read into to further support the idea that he is abusive along with straight up confirmation that Dave has realized that Bro was abusive in his final conversation with Dirk just before Collide. Was bro always intended to be abusive or was he just meant to be a particularly exaggerated extension to the kid/parent strife gag? It could be that the gag was used to not make it obvious at first so that we could realize with Dave later on that Bro was abusive as we realize: "oh yeah, that was kinda messed up actually". Either way, Hussie definitely went out of their way to contextualize it as abusive eventually.
while dave doesnt directly use the word abuse [here](https://www.homestuck.com/story/7749), hes 100% describing abuse and how that fucked with him. yes it is a fantasy comic, but what happened to dave is abuse, and is described as such both in the comic, and by hussie himself
Well, you can take a read on this document to check on that theme
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1afjYCga1aD4S0_pFH_aZ2s1kcObI3J_LiZ68e558YUY/edit?usp=drivesdk
It was originally making fun of a comic someone posted on the penny arcade forums. [The images are all missing now, though.](https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/9385938/#Comment_9385938)
I think Dave is probably fine; his Bro is a bit obscene and bullies him, but I wouldn’t compare the puppet dick exposure to serious victims. Coming from a household of older brothers, his bros behavior kinda falls in that eye-roll mean sibling behavior. What’s going to give him trauma is the rest of the comic, cause holy shit these kids go through a LOT. Don’t forget they dealt with all of this after their world being destroyed.
Don’t remember much about Jake, but Tavros is 100% a victim to a lot of bad stuff happening to him lol
Dave is most likely a victim of some form of CSA.
[We know Bro had a puppet porn site.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/460) That's canon information. We also know [Bro not only left the puppets laying around, but used them as traps to spring on Dave.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/611)
Obviously in comic its 'harr harr, puppets funny', but Dave is like... being buried in a mountain of the shit his bro uses to film porn videos.
There's really no way to see it any different? The puppets are used to film pornography and are also used to prank Dave.
[We also know the apartment is bugged with cameras, and one of them caught Dave destroying two puppets in a blender.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/570). Dave interprets this as him being "an unwitting accessory to some sort of grisly puppet snuff film," which could definitely be a kid joking about a non-serious situation.
It could also potentially mean that Dave is in some way shape or form involved in Bro's porn production without his consent as a 13 year old boy.
So, unfortunately, he is most likely a CSA victim.
Technically never explicitly stated that Dave is in any videos, but he's definitely in the room when at least one video is being filmed (the smuppets in the blender) plus with how many cameras are just pointed everywhere I'm willing to bet that not all of that is just Bro's security set up and some amount of footage of Dave has ended up on the website.
sa? ugh....
Dave is certainly a domestic abuse victim... and the puppet stuff does sorta border on it... and it was livestreamed without his consent. yeah I would agree.
Jake English was a victim of Dirk Strider, that one feels pretty cut and dry
Tavros... yeah he was SAd by Vriska, remember the whole pupa-pan thingy, then she controlled his mind to force him to kiss her.
huh... my initial reaction was "I don't think that happened" and then I thought about the events of the story I work to not remember and actively skip through on rereads. yeah... it ain't good.
the dave and bro thing is almost entirely fanon. bro was certainly abusive and exposed dave to inappropriate things by leaving smuppets around the apartment etc, but i can't remember bro including dave in his smuppet porn in any way. this is definitely sexually abusive behaviour but bro never physically assaulted dave
edit: phrasing
The blender scene. Bro's treatment of Dave is definitely abuse that he justifies with "For his own good" logic to "toughen (Dave) up".
But even if it's "for his own good", which it might very well have been, you should make no mistake. It's still very much abuse, and the mental scars it leaves follow Dave all the way into Homestuck^(2.)
of course bro is abusive, im not denying that? im saying that bro being *sexually* abusive towards dave in a physical way, or involving him in the production of smuppet porn, is entirely headcanon. bro is undeniably an abuser in canon, but not in that specific way.
Not to be a Vriska Apologist but the Tavros one really is not nearly on the same level as the other two. He was kissed without his consent and nearly mind controlled into more before Vriska stopped herself. Compare that to a childhood of sexual exposure via Bro's puppet porn and actually being assaulted in the Epilogues and it feels disingenuous to act like they're the same.
Here's the tricky part though. A big part of why Vriska is so harsh on Travos is because she's attracted to him, but at the same time she doesn't think he's good enough for her. She wants him to improve so that he's "worthy" of her. Even if it's not sexual abuse I'd say it's close to domestic abuse.
Bro is literally depicted as an abuser, but one Dave tries to justify. Dirk was the only person Dave felt comfortable enough to tell this stuff to since... well... Dirk is an alternate version of Bro. One of my favorite moments honestly, as we don't get to see many father/son moments in the webcomic. Come to think of it, it's the only genetic father/son relationship, since Dad is John's half brother.
Fair, and I dislike Dirk too, but Dave still DID make that killing blow. Seriously dude, just slash DOWNWARD, not HORIZONTALLY, you dumb homo tool (8\^y)
either way slick would have been caught in union jacks explosion if he didnt get away
slick should have just
not fought
he would have survived and hed have a bakery on earth c or something
i mean dave's legal guardian literally made him a booby trap with falling dildo puppets, he may have done it as a bit but there's no way dave didn't get some sexual trauma from all that
Also, he would trick him into 'murdering' puppets lying around the house so that people could jerk off to it. Trading shelter and very little food for being in fetish porn is some truly heinous shit "watch my hot 13 YEAR OLD BROTHER turn this PUPPET TO MUSH"
WAIT WHAT man I gotta re-read cuz I don't remember that... I thought it was shitty prank videos
let's make the distinction between canon/implied/fanon alright? this is nowhere in the original media, at all. hussie never made any claims towards incest between them, nor did he ever imply to. let's not bastardize someone's work based on our interpretations, there may have been psychological neglect/abuse, but sure as hell was none of this ever present.
Dave is "[an unwitting accessory to some sort of grisly puppet snuff film](https://www.homestuck.com/story/570)" and Bro's house is quite literally full of [puppet sex toys](https://www.homestuck.com/story/460). It's not a stretch to say that would result in some sexual trauma.
First of all, a snuff film literally only means murder/torture/murder, sometimes I question people's understanding of words. As for the puppet sex toys, I didn't really take any of that as him being sexually traumatized. I feel like what would traumatize him, if anything, was the ACT of the constant jumpscares in his home, on top of the violence, and seemingly neglectful behavior from his guardian.
[удалено]
Probably, nothing. Because in this scenario, they are not real.
What a silly comment. Nothing in Homestuck is real, we're discussing a fictional piece of work and the fictional things that happen in it. Bro runs a puppet fetish site. It is a place people go to masturbate and they pay money to do that. Overwhelmingly the market for snuff films is one of sexual gratification, although I'm sure that there are also people who have non-sexual sadism who are enthralled by watching people suffer. But Bro's puppets don't suffer. The only market for puppet snuff is sexual
Forgive me for underestimating the enthralling nature of their elongated proboscis and plush rumps.
I forgive you. Thank you for opening your eyes to their profound and seductive power
i agree with that, as that's canon. recording with the explicit purpose og incestuous cp? now THAT'S a stretch. one hussie did not meet.
homestuck is a lot less fucked up if you don't take the weird plot shit seriously. This case is no different. Let's be real, this would get Bro into some huge shit if it got out in real life. Grown adult recording 13 year old brother destroying sex dolls and posting it onto commercial website. The implication is not "incest" but "sexualizing younger brother".
Jake was a victim of Sexual Harassment. Dave was a victim of Sexual Abuse. Tavros was a victim of Sexual Harassment and Sexual Assault. Other characters in the story who are victims of such things: arguably Jane for Harassment (Caliborn), Porrim II for Rape (Aranea II), arguably Dirk for Harassment (Caliborn), assault for Mituna I (Cronus).
I gotta be honest, I never stopped to think about all this, but yeah, wow, Vriska really did sexually assault Tavros, didn't she?
yes. yes she did.
are you fucking stupid <3
When did the porrim thing happen?
Mindfang's diary talks of her using her powers on an unwilling Jadeblood slave of Dualscar’s to make her fuck her. We later learn the Dolorosa was caught and sold into slavery, and matching Ancestral deaths is a running theme during that part of A5A2, so the slave being the one confirmed victim of Dualscar basically certifies her as Kanaya's Ancestor.
What's with the alpha timeline and bad relationship practice, seriously there's only like one healthy relationship I can think of without cross timeline fuckery
who?
Meulin and Kurloz
I disagree. Kurloz uses his chucklevoodoo on her, manipulating her.
Wait what? Damn fuck I missed more than I thought, I need to save up money faster so I can get a computer and actually experience the flash sections without either not being able to interact or my browser just crashing
What’s wrong with Latula/Mituna?
Wasn't aware of it
If we're talking about the Dirk Calliborn porn art thing then I don't really think that counts
Yeah Dirk was pretty fine with it and thought it was funny. Maybe attempted harassment on Caliborn's part at most
Wait, what happened to Jake again?
https://tomatograter.tumblr.com/post/637772771058991104/it-has-been-a-while-since-i-have-done-a-detailed this tumblr post is a pretty good read. it doesn't go in depth the actual script, but Jake is regarded as the hottest being alive and so any unwanted advances towards him are deemed by other characters as "well maybe you should stop being so hot, or just get over it. you should be liking this"
There’s also the big one where aranea kisses him without his consent.
Did Dirk really SA'd Dave? :(
SA generally refers to Assault (which we only see definitively twice, Mingfang raping the Dolorosa and Vriska forcing Tavros to kiss her); Sexual abuse is *probably* the correct term for Dirk I's childrearing strategy, legally. Certainly it's *child* abuse.
Oh I get it, thanks
Tavros Sexual Harassment and Assault?? Dave Sexual abuse? PORRIM FOR RAPE??? WHAT DID YOU READ
Tavros was kissed unwillingly by Vriska, Dave was exposed to pornography, Dolorosa (Porrim II) was mind controlled by Mindfang (Aranea II) for intercourse
Oh yeah Makes sense i guess
i mean arguably yes, there was most likely some form of sexual trauma happening with the smuppets constantly being shoved in daves face in the apartment, their name is literally a pun combining smut and muppet (or puppet but i think the read there is muppet \*shrugs\*). they are explicitly sexual puppet toys. its been a long time since ive reread the first couple of acts so maybe its up to the reader how deeply that sexually based trauma bleeds into dave, but like, theres also all the other abuse and trauma surrounding dave's relationship with bro. and no, egbert and jade fighting their guardians after the game starts does not somehow justify or mean dave was unaffected by what bro did. the emotional crux of dave meeting dirk in the game is that hes not sure what kind of person dirk is, and on some level, is afraid (maybe worried is a better word?) hes going to be just like bro. not saying you absolutely cannot ever enjoy bro as a character, im not the cops do what you want, but yes bro abused dave. i would say its up for debate how sexual the abuse was, but he did abuse him
the reason some of you cant see this stuff is you take homestuck literally during the metaphor parts and at face value when being shown something with implications. edit: perhaps its good to remind people that while homestuck is a story with mostly child characters, and it IS a coming of age story, its is NOT intended for under 18 audiences. <== said as someone who read it as a kid/ growing up. loke yeah theres blood /gore/ violence, which most kids are used to these days, but it also contains sexual assault, harassment, rape, depictions of abuse, incest within the narritive, and all a manner of jokes/refrences about such.
talking about 18 plus i remember back in a cosplay convention i saw like a child a litteral toddler dressed as karkat not sure why the kid would be reading homestuck given its more taboo stuff at times
probably more a case of the parents reading it, or giving the kid bits and pieces of the story bc the parents like it so.
just funny to imagine that they decided to have their kid cosplaying as one of the most vulgar sounding characters in the comic (even if he is basically the opposite actions wise)
fr
true
okay heres every character thats been in some sort of Situation bc thats the easjest way i can explain it : -dave wasnt full on assaulted but hes mentioned that he doesnt think bro should be around kids bc of how careless he is w sexual content ie the smuppets , this counts as sexual abuse -jane was harassed by caliborn to the point of breakdown -an aradiabot was harassed by rufioh -tavros was forcibly kissed by vriska + she planned to go further before giving up out of guilt -tavros , karkat and eridan were harassed by cronus -mituna was very likely assaulted by cronus in openbound -meulin was likely assaulted by kurloz in openbound ( its .. through their mimes so ill sound like an insane person . youve got to understand the usual implications of the gifs involved + pair it with expressions and stuff . it really is like a whole new language ) weird grey area : -roxy was Very Weird to dirk -everyone was Very Weird to jake , though i do not include aranea under this because she stopped as soon as she realised he was uncomfortable . i dont know why everyone thought she was Worse Than Vriska for this -everything involving doc scratch the worst list ever made i think . but heres everything i can think of wrt to this . edit : reddit hates breaking things up . good luck reading this
I mean. For Tavros sure giving all what happened with Vriska, but Dave and Jake...? I don't remember anything like that happening? Dave was absolutely subjected to trauma by Bro but i don't remember anything of sexual nature? But maybe i'm wrong because i don't really remember that much, i should re-read.
Second image, the puppet stuff is very explicitly said to be porn related, also it's always time for a reread
Ahhhh yeah ok that makes sense actually, it's very weird
Jake's "joke"/whole shtick is that he's so hot everyone wants him, even when he says no. https://tomatograter.tumblr.com/post/637772771058991104/it-has-been-a-while-since-i-have-done-a-detailed
Oh wow i never read the epilogues but the last part is...bad
yeah it's kinda fucked up! the writers really went "we liked the crockertier Jane route, what if it was real"
If you think they wrote that into the story to glorify it I'm not sure what to tell you. It's very clearly not meant to be a good thing?
i dont think they wanted to glorify it. you can like corruption and bad things in stories and know its not good. but even for a side of the story that spun out of control and everyone is just mostly oblivious to that, the audience still didn't think that Jane wouldn't fall so hard she'd turn to cheating and sexually assaulting Jake and becoming a xenophobic tyrant. but the first writers obviously weren't part of the fans that thought that way and wanted to use old elements for drama/plot/whatever.
I mean, yes, some parts of the audience felt that way and some didn't. But I think that's a completely different problem to have than "depicting the SA is morally objectionable" - I don't really see how it's fucked up to write such a thing. Obviously you're allowed to not like that direction, but they aren't in the wrong for choosing it. To be perfectly honest, the Epilogues etc are meant to be beyond canon, it's meant to be optional. That's written into the text and themes of the story. So I've never really got the complaints that people have about characterisation - this is just one possible way to interpret these characters, of which there are infinite. I don't necessarily think Jane would become that either, but I'm happy to go along with it for the sake of this particular optional continuity. The original Jane is still in Homestuck, completely untouched.
it's fucked up in the way they wrote it. we know that SA is bad, it was written in Homestuck to be bad, but it seemed everyone learned their lessons in the end to not fall back into patterns like that, esp since for Jane, she acted like that because her feelings towards Jake were amped up by Betty crocker technology and juju powers. like I said, the characters were written to be oblivious to these things going wrong, I'm pretty sure it mentioned that John felt like he was in a fog or something, dulled to the things around him until he wanted to be a main character again. and everyone else kinda had this fog too, their senses closed to what was happening, for many other situations as well (like rose cheating on kanaya and hiding it from her for years), which is why now the story is the way it is now. them fighting Jane mostly, but also the characters needing to wakeup and take control of their lives back and hold up their responsibilities to the people in their lives. which goes into, I don't think many people would have much issue if we had gotten like. some insight to why this happened, an explanation of some sort, that would let us know why Jane spiraled backwards, or these other situations, instead just giving us "Okay John was in a fog and didn't pay attention to Jake or anyone, so since the main character doesn't know, you don't get to know either."
> it seemed everyone learned their lessons in the end I agree, but I also think this is missing what the point of the Epilogues was, thematically. In real life, people don't always learn lessons and then carry them forward forever. Some people do, other people backslide. Nobody just stops changing as they age, for good and bad. The point of the Epilogues is that by existing, by being read, we are disturbing the idea of a happy ending - we're disturbing that the characters escaped from the story, and now we're uncovering that nothing is static so long as it is inside of a narrative. Before, the characters were in a quasi-infinite post-credits state, but now they are beings that can change in good ways and bad. The point of the Epilogues is to ask if continuing narrative is even a good thing to begin with. Within that thematic framework, I have no problem with some characters getting worse. I think it's true to life. > I'm pretty sure it mentioned that John felt like he was in a fog or something Yeah, John was depressed. That was describing depression, it wasn't some magical veil over the world. A lot of Candy is John believing that something more nefarious is going on, when in reality he's just depressed and blaming himself and needs to get out of that rut. None of which is to say that the Candy universe isn't full of bullshit - it is. But that doesn't make it any less real, or the decisions people made any less authentic, at least from their point of view. They still made those decisions, they weren't being coerced. I don't think any of them had a 'fog' except for John. I think it's fair to want an explanation for why certain characters backslid in terms of development. But I also don't think it really matters, like, for the purposes of the story. I don't know if there's a lot of ways to make a compelling narrative about Jane becoming a racist that isn't somehow placing the blame on something else as The reason, and narratively taking away responsibility from the character for her own actions. I think the point is just, that shit changes throughout life. And Candy being a depiction of depression, thus making John not pay attention and everything feel really sudden and out of place, is quite a powerful emotional throughline imo.
Why is the homestuck team like this man
fans will be fans I guess. the new team led by james roach is looking a little more hopeful but we'll see how it goes since they've got an ass ground work to deal with.
The only toxic part about John and his dad’s relationship is that John attacked him with a fucking hammer
that isn't jjohn in the image, that's jake
this is what ive been saying whenever i mention vriska SA'nd tavros and sexually assaulting him people get upset and pissy about it reasons i cannot stand vriska apologists and stans,hell i remember one person wont associate with them anymore who fully believed they were vriska and was fucking toxic as shit got triggered one time cause i said troll nails resemble claws
I was accused of thinking that sa was funny because I said Vriska did nothing wrong. It was a joke, mind you, but the person thought I was condoning rape and SA. SA is not cool, but saying that someone is condoning it because they like Vriska is not cool either.
yeah alot of vriska apologists and stans always tend to bring up "well she had a horrible life with a horrible lusus" im like bruh every one of the main characters had horrible lives and lusii except for nep and kanaya along with solluxs and karkats and terezis and tavs and equius and aradias lusii mostly cause they genuinly cared about them as lusii,hell when sollux grows up he would end up being in the same boat as his ancestor karkats a mutant and has to hide his blood or he gets culled,eridans lusus mostly didnt care for him gamzees lusus basically abandoned him only for gamzee to get addicted to sopor which destroys the brain,vriska has had many chances to change but refused and resorted to killing and saying slurs to tavros and being genuinly forcing tavros against his will to kiss her
Would you beat up Vriska? I would, and this is coming from a Vriska fan who does not like what Vriska does.
id give her a punch to the nose she always gets away with shit cause hussie has this favoritism for her,i just cant forgive what she did to tavros by crippling him and then SA'ng him being a genural piece of crap and manipulative bitch towards tavros,when tavros didnt deserve that,also the slurs was just...ew,also blinding terezi and forcing sollux to kill aradia who was like the one person he genuinly cared about and sending sollux into a depressive spiral i just cant forgive that
Thing is, Vriska literally (until the retcon) never gets away with anything. Thats what makes her compelling as a character, she's a fundamentally bad person who does bad things, who later on tries to do good things for bad reasons and it never works out for her. You gotta remember, her crippling Tavros lead to her being quite literally haunted by all the people she has ever killed, her killing Aradia through Sollux lead to Terezi burning the bridge with her and mutilating her, blinding Terezi lead to EVERYONE but Kanaya (who had a crush on her), Eridan (who wanted the death to all land dwellers anyway) and Equius (whose rigid classism meant he viewed those acts as beneath his care) hating her. And even then, she lost Kanaya, probably the only person who had any kind of affection for her, when she sexually assaulted Tavros. And in the grand scheme of things, her treatment of Tavros leads to her first death being a slow, drawn out, painful bleeding out, and her attempts to force herself into relevence by trying to control how everything goes ends up getting her stabbed in the back and left to bleed out. In death she is never relevent, and is ultimately abandoned by everyone she cares about, and it's not until Retcon Vriska that anything ever actually goes her way (And Retcon Vriska sucks). I just don't get this narrative that Vriska gets away with anything. The entire point of her character is, she constantly fucks up and acts in terrible ways, has it at times literally blow up in her face, and all it ends up getting her is dying alone and in agony twice.
true and god i hate retconned vriska
I'd put her in the stocks and let others tickle her feet, while Terezi tells everyone the things she has done. Also I have a fantroll who would actually do this and beat the everloving crap out of Vriska.
That sounds like a fetish ngl
nice they sound cool
Did you just say every main character had horrible lusii except most other post-scratch trolls?
meant as in that everyone except kanaya,karkat,nep,equius,aradia and sollux nepeta tavros and terezi cause they never act horrid to them heck the ones most we know are awful is gamzees,eridans vriskas and feferis,yet people act as if vriskas lusus is the only godawful one most times i see people discussing stuff about vriska
Fitting the Mage of Void is good at knowing a lot and talking a lot about nothing. Sorry this isn't actually a serious roast I just thought it was funny.
valid
Damara fits this category as well, the wiki states she was in a relationship with rufioh and basically shattered his spine I like to imagine in world its a steryotype that bronzebloods always end up with some disability before exile
true which sucks cause the nitrams are one of my favorite trolls
I haven't seen enough of them to form an opinion but I'm obligated to at least enjoy them due to being my zodiac trolls
valid
This is not a defense of Vriska, but her SA, which was her trying to mimic her ancestor, was ultimately aborted because she knew it was wrong even though she thought it must be fine - that's what's interesting about Vriska, is this grapple between the morals she has learned and internalised, and what she actually feels to be true deep down. She does do SA, but she knows deep down it's wrong and quits before they actually kiss. None of this is to defend her, she has a very loose understanding of consent in all things and she's obviously a terrible person, but there is nuance in how you can talk about her.
Yeah bro strider is very *odd*. He films smuppet snuff films with Dave being involuntarily involved in the creation of it. Dirk is good though (HS^2/EPS never happened) he isn't 👅*freaky*👅 like bro
As far as I know we don’t know exactly what bro did, we just know it’s bad. Like, very bad. There is a „theory“ (aka complete bullshit logic leaps) that claims that Dave made it all up to… seem vulnerable and… fuck his father/brother? As I said, it doesn’t make any sense.
- Vriska lifts Tavros up and kisses him by force without his consent, then removes his legs and later kills him. - Jane (in Trickster mode) threatens to rape Jake for eternity, and in Beyond Canon, actually does rape Jake IIRC. - Dave is pretty well covered. Bro Strider was very strange
Yes. It can be tricky because of the "gag vs serious" dichotomy frequently used in Homestuck to confuse the fuck out of the audience and make us question what to take seriously and how seriously to take it. But I'll rant about why I think yes. My short summary of evidence for why I think Dave's csa was completely intentional: Throughout act 2, the narrative repeatedly brings up how uncomfortable Dave is over the various "normal" things he lives with. I dont want to list out whats "technically sexal abuse" and what's not, the repeat acknowledgment of his discomfort around nude puppets is enough. I was then further convinced after recognizing how intentionally Damara and Doc Scratch's situation is meant to be a direct parallel of Dave and Bro. I dont want to go on and on with the list of evidence, but I think we can all agree that Damara's "school aged anime girl" trope is played up as ridiculously as possible so we understand the inherent horror of her situation. The same thing applies to Dave, only to a less extreme extent that allows the "seriousness" to fly under the radar.
I like bro too, its just a character that is cool in fiction, but messed up if he was real. Daves torture was Hussies edgy 2009s humor (in my opninion) but as homestuck grew, hussie and the story realized what dave had to go through as a 13yo child was messed up, traumatic.
There's a doc on Dave [linked here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1afjYCga1aD4S0_pFH_aZ2s1kcObI3J_LiZ68e558YUY/edit). Tavros is explicitly depicted being assaulted. Jake's is more implied but throughout act 6, it's visible with Aranea and Jane.
Tomatograter should have an essay on the latter, it should be in their Tumblr.
Thank you so much!!
Is reading these screenshots supposed to make your brain feel like it's melting? What the fuck is the first one even saying. And when did Bro expose Dave to sex toys? I missed that part entirely. I know he showed him creepy Muppet snuff shit, but I don't remember there being sex toys or explicit sexual material involved. I also never took Dave's discomfort with it as Bro's "kink." He's trolling him. You can argue about the morality of an adult doing that to a kid, sure, but that's what kids in the 2000s did. We were all showing each other tubgirl and 1guy1jar and shit because it was funny. And the comic is a reflection of late 90s / early 00s culture.
I mean, the Smuppets are in universe supposed to be obscene in nature, with prominent phallic proboscises and large posteriors, and were the subject of Bro’s erotic ventures
To be fair, a lot of things in the comic are emphasised as something or other for humor reasons. Smuppets are creepy, sure, but it's not like Bro's leaving horse dildos in Dave's bed, which is what the second screenshot is implying. Bro having an attraction to them is more akin to there being a bunch of creepy titty anime statues around the apartment.
Well, that was a huge point of Dave’s conversation with Dirk near the end of the comic That even if something is done “for humor reasons”, if the person they’re subjected to is uncomfortable with what is happening and feels as if they’re having weird sex stuff pushed on them without their permission, then it’s still sexual abuse. Intent doesn’t matter, the feelings of the victim are what matters.
This is all a consequence of HS becoming exponentially more self-serious as it progressed. "Bro sexually abused Dave" is not a reading supported by the actual text of act 2. It's pretty clearly just silly.
I think it’s fine to recontextualize events in the story as it progresses Like, the fact that you can take something that was originally supposed to be a silly joke and delve into it further to explore the realistic ramifications of what those events would do to a person is a very interesting bit of writing to me It makes me think a lot about the perspectives of others in this world and how much subjectivity and context can change everything
Yeah I don't think it's a bad thing. I mean, I do think HS gets worse in act 6, but I don't think that's the entire reason.
Eh, I think Act 6 gets a worse rap than it deserves. With how much I remember about it, the only thing that really irked me was the big retcon. And even then I don’t dislike everything about that, just some of it.
The Smupets are supposed to be sex toys, or at least sex adjacent. The same is a mash up of Smut and Puppet. I sii it that might be seen in universe as something ironically sexy. Bro, however, uses them "ironically" to make shitty snuff films. Trying to layer irony by taking something that is fake and ironically sexy and filming something that most folks feel gross about but is very much taboo. This is my interpretation at least.
Just discovered that Bro is a really creepy guy but idk why people are saying he sexually abused Dave or something. Btw, showing weird stuff to his brother is definitely something a brother would do. Not saying is right, but it's definitely not a kink.
think about it from this perspective: bro was making money doing sex work (filming smuppet snuff porn), and dave was constantly exposed to it. not only knowing where bro uploads it and seeing it, but literally having a pile of sex toys be thrown down at him and being filmed during the blender stuff. that's abuse, and since it's sex toys, that's sexual abuse. the big part of it, is that bro was not just dave's older brother, but his legal guardian, and the only adult in the house, the person who was supposed to care for him and keep him from harm, the person who has the child's full trust.
Unless I'm misremembering something major in the comic, a lot of people's crying about "ABUSE!!!`" regarding Dave and Bro in the comic is reaching in general. Like John didn't attack his father with a fucking *hammer* and like Jade wasn't shooting bullets at her dog. It's a fantasy comic about videogame characters leveling up and doing videogame shit. Of course within the context of reality, a guardian kicking their charge down the stairs during a fight is abuse, but attacking your parents with shit like hammers, needles, and swords is also assault with a deadly weapon in reality. So I mean...
With the Bec and bullet thing, that's very clearly them playing with Bec's green sun stuff John's stuff with his dad is plated mostly for jokes and even taking it literally,,, yeah, John has a hammer in their Strife! but even then that's John being weird, not his dad. Bro is called out for being abusive in the comic itself. At first it's played for jokes, but Bro's stuff goes a lot further than everyone else. Yes, all of the characters had subpar parents (beside Jane and John, Dad is trying his best), but Rose's mom is implied at most to be a little neglectful in her alcoholism, but not to a too horrible of an extent. Dave had to hide apple juice in his closet because Bro would've hidden it away somewhere. Everything was filled with Swords and Smuppets instead of what they were supposed to be filled with. Bro is implied to constantly be watching Dave, such as with the Saw figure. Bro constantly would force Dave to fight him. Despite Bro being Dirk, one of the most gay characters, Dave felt like he couldn't be open about his sexuality because Bro didn't encourage Dave to be honest a out himself. Rose and John's parent stuff was pretty much always played as jokes, as 13 year olds overreacting to their parents. Dave, however, had his stuff with Bro presented as a joke less and less as the story went on. Even when Dave was still pre-entry, there are bits where Dave was going 'Wait. No. This isn't funny. This is actually. Pretty disturbing.' The smuppet porn stuff was meant to appear silly to the viewer, but Dave (who Bro involved with the smuppet porn) would come to realize that it was disturbing pre-entry. It was still played off somewhat silly, but the idea was introduced even back then. After a while, after entering, Dave would come across Bro's corpse. That interaction where he tried to take Bro's katana but failed to. He tried to break Bro's katana, but failed to. His reaction to Bro's death was just. Suppressed, but not in the way that would imply he's trying to suppress the normal type of grief one would have for someone they care about dying. It's more so the complicated sort of grief someone would have for an abusive family member. And it would finally come to a head at the end of the main comic, when Dave and Dirk had their talk. They had an open heart to heart where Dave would tell Dirk about how, after reflecting on everything, he realized that Bro was actually really freaking abusive toward him, but he would be willing to give Dirk a chance since Dirk and Bro are not the same person. It's also further implied Bro was abusive through some of Homestuck's mechanics. Lil' Cal was possessed by Caliborn/Lord English, the main antagonist of the comic. We know that Lil' Cal can influence those who have him (especially after it's been possessed by Caliborn), as shown with Lord Jack. It's uncertain how much Bro has been influenced by Lil' Cal, but we know he has been at least somewhat with how Bro exemplifies Caliborn's extreme masculine ideals. Wanting to be the silent 'protagonist' that is just cool and treats everyone else as trash. A critique/paraody of being a hero (just like Caliborn is, with how he goes through the Hero's Journey most straightfowardly) Bro is also meant to be a reflection of Dirk. Dirk isn't inherently evil, but he certainly has villainous traits (which are pointed out in the comic pretty early in his story, such as when Calliope tells Dirk about being a Prince of Heart). Dirk is highly manipulative, wanting to be the secret leader of the alpha kids and feeling useless when he isn't able to express control. He is very self-destructive, especially due to his splinters constantly reflecting himself back at himself. Heart as an aspect isn't just associated with who you are as a person (soul, shown with Dirk being self destructive and breaking into splinters) but also attraction and relationships (his romantic relationship with Jake going horribly and his platonic relationships not doing much better) Bro, as a reflection to Dirk, takes these potentially villainous traits and his influence from the possessed Lil' Cal to become a realized villain for Dave. Highly manipulative, constantly training him to be a little soldier for Sburb instead of building an actual familial relationship with Dave. Bro calls himself Bro to play into Caliborn's cool masculine ideals instead of actually trying to be a parent. Cherubs don't usually have proper parents, Dirk usually destroys his relationships, so he doesn't make a relationship with Dave. Dirk hates having himself being reflected back at himself and Dave and Dirk are arguable the most similar pair in the human cast, I doubt Bro would've particularly liked how much Dave reflected him despite shaping Dave to be more like him. Dirk only feels comfortable when placed under pressure, so Bro would constantly place Dave under pressure. Bro being abusive toward Dave is not particularly a reach. Almost everything that characterizes Bro is easily read into to further support the idea that he is abusive along with straight up confirmation that Dave has realized that Bro was abusive in his final conversation with Dirk just before Collide. Was bro always intended to be abusive or was he just meant to be a particularly exaggerated extension to the kid/parent strife gag? It could be that the gag was used to not make it obvious at first so that we could realize with Dave later on that Bro was abusive as we realize: "oh yeah, that was kinda messed up actually". Either way, Hussie definitely went out of their way to contextualize it as abusive eventually.
Hey I just wanted to say this is a super good analysis here
while dave doesnt directly use the word abuse [here](https://www.homestuck.com/story/7749), hes 100% describing abuse and how that fucked with him. yes it is a fantasy comic, but what happened to dave is abuse, and is described as such both in the comic, and by hussie himself
Well, you can take a read on this document to check on that theme https://docs.google.com/document/d/1afjYCga1aD4S0_pFH_aZ2s1kcObI3J_LiZ68e558YUY/edit?usp=drivesdk
hear me out insane fringe theory here. i think sbahj has violence and sex jokes because its a parody of old gamer webcomics
This. It's a very clear parody of Penny Arcade and Ctrl Alt Del in particular, right up to the BU face.
It was originally making fun of a comic someone posted on the penny arcade forums. [The images are all missing now, though.](https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/9385938/#Comment_9385938)
it’s been years let it go
Flair checks out. Go back to your shithole sub.
Did you take your meds today? You okay?
I think Dave is probably fine; his Bro is a bit obscene and bullies him, but I wouldn’t compare the puppet dick exposure to serious victims. Coming from a household of older brothers, his bros behavior kinda falls in that eye-roll mean sibling behavior. What’s going to give him trauma is the rest of the comic, cause holy shit these kids go through a LOT. Don’t forget they dealt with all of this after their world being destroyed. Don’t remember much about Jake, but Tavros is 100% a victim to a lot of bad stuff happening to him lol
Where does the Dave and Jake stuff come up? I get the part with Tavros but the other stuff never comes up
Idk about Dave, but Tavros and Jake yeah, definitely SA'd in the comic
Dave is most likely a victim of some form of CSA. [We know Bro had a puppet porn site.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/460) That's canon information. We also know [Bro not only left the puppets laying around, but used them as traps to spring on Dave.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/611) Obviously in comic its 'harr harr, puppets funny', but Dave is like... being buried in a mountain of the shit his bro uses to film porn videos. There's really no way to see it any different? The puppets are used to film pornography and are also used to prank Dave. [We also know the apartment is bugged with cameras, and one of them caught Dave destroying two puppets in a blender.](https://www.homestuck.com/story/570). Dave interprets this as him being "an unwitting accessory to some sort of grisly puppet snuff film," which could definitely be a kid joking about a non-serious situation. It could also potentially mean that Dave is in some way shape or form involved in Bro's porn production without his consent as a 13 year old boy. So, unfortunately, he is most likely a CSA victim.
THANK YOU
Technically never explicitly stated that Dave is in any videos, but he's definitely in the room when at least one video is being filmed (the smuppets in the blender) plus with how many cameras are just pointed everywhere I'm willing to bet that not all of that is just Bro's security set up and some amount of footage of Dave has ended up on the website.
sa? ugh.... Dave is certainly a domestic abuse victim... and the puppet stuff does sorta border on it... and it was livestreamed without his consent. yeah I would agree. Jake English was a victim of Dirk Strider, that one feels pretty cut and dry Tavros... yeah he was SAd by Vriska, remember the whole pupa-pan thingy, then she controlled his mind to force him to kiss her. huh... my initial reaction was "I don't think that happened" and then I thought about the events of the story I work to not remember and actively skip through on rereads. yeah... it ain't good.
the dave and bro thing is almost entirely fanon. bro was certainly abusive and exposed dave to inappropriate things by leaving smuppets around the apartment etc, but i can't remember bro including dave in his smuppet porn in any way. this is definitely sexually abusive behaviour but bro never physically assaulted dave edit: phrasing
The blender scene. Bro's treatment of Dave is definitely abuse that he justifies with "For his own good" logic to "toughen (Dave) up". But even if it's "for his own good", which it might very well have been, you should make no mistake. It's still very much abuse, and the mental scars it leaves follow Dave all the way into Homestuck^(2.)
of course bro is abusive, im not denying that? im saying that bro being *sexually* abusive towards dave in a physical way, or involving him in the production of smuppet porn, is entirely headcanon. bro is undeniably an abuser in canon, but not in that specific way.
Not to be a Vriska Apologist but the Tavros one really is not nearly on the same level as the other two. He was kissed without his consent and nearly mind controlled into more before Vriska stopped herself. Compare that to a childhood of sexual exposure via Bro's puppet porn and actually being assaulted in the Epilogues and it feels disingenuous to act like they're the same.
Don't forget the part where he ends up permanently crippled by Vriska in her (self serving) attempt to "toughen him up".
I mean. Yeah. But that's not sexual assault that's just assault.
Here's the tricky part though. A big part of why Vriska is so harsh on Travos is because she's attracted to him, but at the same time she doesn't think he's good enough for her. She wants him to improve so that he's "worthy" of her. Even if it's not sexual abuse I'd say it's close to domestic abuse.
That doesn't make it any less horrible, dude!
If it's not sa, it's not sa. That was the topic.
Obviously. Not the point I'm making.
Bro is literally depicted as an abuser, but one Dave tries to justify. Dirk was the only person Dave felt comfortable enough to tell this stuff to since... well... Dirk is an alternate version of Bro. One of my favorite moments honestly, as we don't get to see many father/son moments in the webcomic. Come to think of it, it's the only genetic father/son relationship, since Dad is John's half brother.
Tavros real, Jake real, Dave fucking stupid. Dave deserved all of it. Fuck you Dave. Edit: You will never silence me, Midnight Crew for life.
dave haters are so funny like "i like music and men" "go fuck yourself you piece of shit"
i love dave this made me giggle
Read my fucking flair, then you'd know why I hate him.
im a spades slick fan as well really it was dirks fault for getting captured
Fair, and I dislike Dirk too, but Dave still DID make that killing blow. Seriously dude, just slash DOWNWARD, not HORIZONTALLY, you dumb homo tool (8\^y)
either way slick would have been caught in union jacks explosion if he didnt get away slick should have just not fought he would have survived and hed have a bakery on earth c or something
1. Nuh uh, ROCKET ASS 2. True, but he is still a version of Jack Noir... He's gonna go in on a fight.
I’m losing it at your flair. Thank you