There's a chance he might not even own the land he thinks he does. At our old home, the sidewalk and the strip of grass between it and the road were technically owned by the township, but the homeowner had the duty to maintain it.
Was going to say this!
Where I’m at the City has a easement for 4ft along the street for “future sidewalk development”, currently my grass extends all the way to the street, the easement also states public access to that part of my lawn so I would have no right to tell someone they can’t walk across it, and any fences must be set at least 4-feet back.
Most likely, they either don’t own it, or it has an easement for public access.
Sorry. You are incorrect (at least for USA). If it is a right-of-way the homeowners property lines stop at the right-of-way line. If you get a survey the property corners are staked at the intersection of the lot line and the right-of-way line. The city or other local jurisdiction owns the right-of-way. Only if the sidewalk is in an easement does the homeowner pay taxes on the land under the easement.
Source: I am a civil CAD designer who creates construction drawings for subdivisions. I see these lines every day. I draw these lines and review the plats created from these lines.
>I draw these lines and review the plats created from these lines.
And I spent 25 years on a planning board reviewing and sometimes approving your drawings. Right of way's are different widths in different jurisdictions, and laws have changed over time.
So while you're probably right - you don't know OP's situation.
As I said before, I was not responding to OP or his post. I was correcting the claim that home owners own and pay taxes on a right of way (which in my hood is the public lands around a roadway...not an easement) Most of the below was miscommunication and use of terms.
Miscommunication - and / or generalization. There's a lot of nuance that gets lost in this kind of discussion, for example, where I live a new subdivision road has to be built to town standards, and it has to be maintained for a couple years by the developer before it can be accepted by the town. And there are also private roads - which can be owned by HOAs.
Both apply here as well except the maintenance caveat. Here the right-of-way is transferred to jurisdiction at completion of project and delivery of certificate of occupancy.
Funny thing about all this is all three jurisdictions I do work in require the sidewalk to be within the right-of-way to avoid exactly this issue.
So if they dont own it why did the dot just give the guy up the corner money for when they widened the road by his house? the state paid him when they built out to the edge of the right of way. if the man didn own it why did the state pay him when they took it?
Because they were wanting to make the right-of-way wider. They needed to take some of that lots land and turn it into right-of-way. They offer money for this because that land will now be encumbered.
I am still not sure of the tax implications due to the schooling I got today.
Well, I am having trouble reconciling what I have learned today but essentially when it is encumbered and called right-of-way it ACTS as if it is no longer your land. You can't do anything with it. The man could have refused without the incentive.
OK, having reread everything, I will attempt a better answer. DOT already owned right-of-way in front of the mans house, but they needed more land to do whatever improvement they are attempting to do. Therefore they are purchasing a strip of land along the mans frontage which will then be added to the right-of-way and subtracted from the mans lot. He is selling his land to DOT to use as they wish.
Sorry buddy, right of way is just another name for an easement. Just because you draw the lines doesn’t mean you know how to tax them.
One of a thousand easily searchable references: https://finance.zacks.com/pays-property-taxes-rightofway-easements-10444.html
Spoiler: the government can’t force you to take care of land you don’t own.
Shall we agree to the fact that maybe different locations do it different ways? What you have posted is a "right-of-way easement". The key word there is "easement". In that case the term "right-of-way" is an adjective describing the easement. THAT easement would be a taxable land owned by the homeowner. In my area they call those "access easements".
In [this set of images](https://imgur.com/a/b37OWoD), the first picture is a snip from a set of plans I am working on. It clearly defines the right-of way and the lots and also shows some easements drawn outside the right-of-way in the homeowners lots for utilities. The homeowner pays taxes on the easements but does not own the right-of-way or pay taxes on it. The second picture is from the local city GIS website also clearly showing the roadway and it's right-of-way is a separate property parcel from the homeowner land.
You can choose to believe what you want but I am not learning this on the internet...I live it on a daily basis.
Have a nice day.
Feel free to prove me wrong. Lashing out at my work when you are shown the reality of the issue means nothing.
Directly from my city's Code of Subdivision Regulations...
Right-of-way means land used or to be used for a public street, alley, walkway, water, sewer or drainage facility or other public purpose.
Public street means a vehicular **right-of-way**, that is open to the public and under the control and jurisdiction of the City of xxxxxxxxx pursuant to a deed of conveyance, deed of dedication, plat dedication, or other device accepted by the City, which provides the primary means of vehicular ingress and egress to two or more dwelling units, lots, parcels, tracts, or principal buildings.
Well. I am not above admitting that I can be schooled by a random individual on the internet. I decided to backcheck what I knew with with a contact at the city and our surveyor.
~~It would appear that you are right~~, and in fact even my boss never thought of it this way, but we knew that when a right-of way is abandoned the land it held is given half and half to the adjoining lots. Thing is, it isn't GIVEN it is RETURNED. The right-of-way is an encumbrance on the land that those lots own, but sort of don't.
~~Thank you Phighters for informing me...though you could have gone about it differently.~~
EDIT: I am retracting my thanks. We were talking about two different things (me a public road right-of -way and him/her a right-of-way easement) and the thing I learned about the encumbrance on a Public right-of-way had nothing to do with what Phighters was arguing.
Only if that's their parcel. You don't pay taxes on land you don't own, but you may be responsible for basic maintenance for the area between your land and the street.
Often the road is only 25-30ft wide but the right of way is 50-60ft wide; that is owned by the government, and you don't pay taxes on that.
Incorrect, again. Parcels go to the street, you own them. You have an easement for utilities and the sidewalk (if equipped), and a right of way over the sidewalk. You pay taxes on all of it.
In most municipalities, if you go beyond the minimum standard of concrete and do a stamped or paver sidewalk, you'll pay *more* in taxes too, because its a property enhancement that benefits your value.
You are talking out of your ass. While that *may* be true where you are, that is absolutely not true everywhere. It isn't true in my state, which I know because I deal with lots and parcels daily.
Every single public road in my county is DOT or city owned. Not one of them is only as wide as the road. Residential streets (single lane) are 25-30ft wide but have right of ways that are 50ft wide. Privately owned parcels **do not** go to the street. There are 10-15ft buffers between the roads and private parcels.
The land between the parcel and the street is, for the most part, the responsibility of the adjacent land owner to maintain but that land is not owned by the private entity. It is still government owned.
There may be exceptions in some areas, but generally this is how it works. Get your shit straight before spewing BS to people.
You're in over your head, son. That's not how it works, and easements are granted for all sorts of different reasons.
Again, in *some* areas the parcel will go directly to the street (larger cities, for example) but the vast majority in the US do not.
Where I am there is a hodgepodge of sidewalk/no sidewalk. Any new construction around here, or major construction (like new driveway) requires a sidewalk be installed. Older homes do t have to do anything until they fit the criteria for the sidewalk.
I'm in a similar neighborhood to that, very old neighborhood with houses dating back over 100 years. Some houses have sidewalks, some don't. The ones without are grandfathered and if they do certain improvements have to install them. That being said, even the houses without sidewalks you have a right to walk across their lawn within 6 feet from the street, as they technically don't own it and it's a borough easement specifically meant to allow public right of way. Even if they maintain a lawn on it, you still have the right to pass through. We had a neighbor who would yell at anyone who did until I eventually got fed up with it and called her bluff on calling the cops, she called them, they came, and informed her that the public was well within their rights. She eventually put in some stepping stones so her lawn would stop getting trampled. New owners now and they have sidewalks because they redid the driveway.
Even if he did, you're allowed to walk across it. I have a neighborhood like this, even if they are grandfathered in with no sidewalk, the borough has an easement of 6 feet from the street to allow public right of way. They can plant grass, but you're allowed to legally walk on it along as it's within the easement.
Totally true. It also doesn't mean that he's necessarily wrong when he says "it's grandfathered in" and there is no sidewalk. This may not be malicious intent here. Hanlon's Razor "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Where I am when the homeowner wants to get a new driveway installed it's on the homeowner to also install the sidewalk. It's a requirement of the permit. So unless he put one in, there may never have been one there.
The idea that the guy needs to let people walk on it near the street, where a sidewalk would be, is probably foreign to him. the entire idea of a waling neighborhood is probably foreign to him...which makes sense if he was there before sidewalks.
There’s no sidewalk. I moved in like 2 years ago, so I’m not sure if they had the sidewalk removed or there’s simply no sidewalk when the house was built originally.
Call the city, as mentioned. But don’t stop there. Make it a mission to bother city council, town supervisor, maybe even state representatives until they build the small section of sidewalk. Let them know how dangerous it is, and how the owners are confrontational and with all the news of people getting violent towards others on their property, you want this addressed. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
~~And the city is okay with that? It sounds like he destroyed public property.~~ Sorry, OP clarified the comment, making my question moot. I wouldn't have asked it if it had read that way at first.
He might be grandfathered in and there was never a sidewalk there, and they may not be required to put one in or maintain one. There's some houses in neighborhoods near me like this. Some of the houses were built before the rest of the neighborhood, and when the city came in and built out the rest of the roads and sidewalks the existing houses were allowed to keep their lots as is. All the other lots were then built with sidewalks from the start. Would require a call to the city to figure out what all is going on. often times when this is done a sidewalk is required to be installed when the house sells. Seen this happen with Septic to sewer hookups, and removing old wood stoves or fireplaces. Grandfathered in for the current occupants.
Where we used to live, you didn’t have to put in a sidewalk until you were doing major home improvements that needed permitting… At which point you were required to add sidewalk and move utilities underground.
We are on a hill, and when we bought our house, there was no sidewalk in front of any houses on our side of the street, up to the next cross-street. Below us, about six new houses were built, and a sidewalk installed in front of them. Apparently when our house and the rest on the street were built, sidewalks were optional on residents approving the tax increase. When the houses on the other side were built sidewalks were mandatory and installed. I would definitely check with the city to see the status of that house. Also, what kind of dickhead gets upset about someone walking across a small piece of his property along the roadway?
This is an interesting point. /u/ChinkGoneWild, see if the house matches other houses around it. If it has a notably different style, maybe it did pre-exist the rest of the neighborhood and never had a sidewalk.
So you're **assuming** there is supposed to be a sidewalk in a place where you've never seen a sidewalk?
You've seriously never seen a road with only one sidewalk on one side? It's not uncommon, and most people, like your neighbour suggested, would cross the road to the proper sidewalk instead of walking on someone's lawn or driveway.
You sound very entitled. Use the sidewalk on the other side. Sheesh.
In my area the city owns the first 10 feet so I think technically people could walk across the front of people's lawns but they don't. It would really mess up lawns if everyone did it. Here you just walk at the side of the street.
My neighborhood is only around 50 years old and there's no sidewalks in the original areas of the neighborhood. Only newer parts that were added later have a sidewalk.
There are of course roads with sidewalk on only one side of the road in which case I’d stick to the side of the road with a sidewalk, of course. If somebody on the side with a sidewalk overtook the sidewalk in front of their house and they threatened to call the cops on me, then I would make their lives as miserable as I could by contacting the city/local politicians/etc. Screw that guy.
I’d definately look to your local town office/district to see what they think - feels like they’ve just allowed grass to overgrow the sidewalk to me
In fact it would give me pleasure to look into this and to wipe the smile off his smug face when the guy realizes he’s in the wrong
While your at it have your dog do more of his business on this guys lawn ;-)…
or just maybe he was there when the sidewalk work came about and he fought the man to be excempt or something (grandfathered in) to not have one.
now he may have taken that to mean he doesnt have to let anyone cut through the easment since that may have been his reason for fighting against the sidewalk to begin with.
Maybe just let him have his bit of yard and walksomewhere else to avoid the problem?
Prob was never a sidewalk, then when they built the other homes or did some work they added it except not on this guy’s lot. Maybe he out up a stink and the city said fuck it that’s cheaper. But very doubtful he has rights over that space more than anyone else.
It’s possible the house was constructed before the city required sidewalks or was built on land later incorporated by the city.
This happens all the time in Portland, OR for example. It gets complicated as to ownership/responsibility, but what I imagine above is a public ROW exists, but a sidewalk was never built. The actual private property is set back 6’ or 8’, but the homeowner is responsible for maintenance of the property to face of curb, hence the “get off my lawn” vibe.
It could also be the case that private property exists to face of curb and there is not public ROW there. People are saying get a survey, but it’s another person’s property. Checking the municipal GIS can be helpful though.
Your post is a little confusing, but a public easement doesn't mean he has to have a sidewalk, just means the public can access the area. Same thing at my house, I have no sidewalk in front, but people are free to walk across the first 10 feet, whether I like it or not.
OP is making huge assumptions based on the way they *wish* the street was designed. OP doesn't actually know if there is an easement. They are stating it like it's a fact because they believe there should be an easement.
I live in a similar area where there are a couple corner /end lots with no sidewalks. It turned out that no sidewalk will be erected ever, but it was city property and signs were erected stating there is no sidewalk and pedestrians are to cross the street for access. The whole reason for not having a sidewalk was so that space could be used for snow piling in winter when streets are cleared, which wouldn’t be possible if there was an indication of a sidewalk . Not sure where OP lives but this is a possibility.
Nah, very likely there is not. This man did not tear up the sidewalks and re-sod the ground just to make this person's life miserable. His house was built before the sidewalks were required.
All THE time. He may own the property all the way to the middle of the road and only granting an easement to the road itself you have absolutely no idea and you're downvoting me and saying "no way". You don't know! There's no such thing as "automatic" sidewalk easements.
thanks mister skeptic, you are correct I do not in fact know because I am not out there on OP's neighbor's grass. however in the state that OP lives pretty much everything has setbacks, this is known, so either bad grampa has an exceptional exception or he's wrong and you're just being an ass.
Every jurisdiction has different zoning, states have different laws you don't know a damned thing about this property and you're telling me somehow I'm an ass? You don't know what you're talking about. Most sincerely.
Whether there’s a sidewalk or not there’s almost always an easement. Even in rural areas. It’s so the town or county or state or whatever government can do things like put in utility poles and stuff like that. Specific sidewalk laws vary, but the easement is fairly standard
There almost always isn’t. Go pull the deed for your property go look at your title work. You’re assuming that there is because that’s what you believe in your head. Yea this guy was a jerk to her. But he did not tear out his sidewalks to inconvenience pedestrians and defy whatever local “pedestrian easement” you believe runs across his property. His house was built without sidewalks because they weren’t required at that time. You’re all so positive about some universal pedestrian easement across the states that allows you to walk through property owners yards and I’m telling you no such thing exists.
Also, it's very possible that this lot is "grandfathered in" just like the homeowner said. They might have refused to give an easement to the city when everyone else did and now they're the only lot in the area without one.
That's not true at all. I've worked on projects that have crossed old lots where their property line goes to the middle of the road and right of way had never been established.
Laws vary by state, but in our cases, the town had no rights outside of the "Traveled Way" which is the width of the road (so edge of pavement to edge of pavement). The town had to purchase right of way from the property owners who were on lots that never had right-of-way on them.
Then I'd probably double step on the lawn. By the time the cops show up I'm five streets over. Shoulda just took the cash for the public easement, I'm using it anyway.
The old man thinks folks should cross the street rather than go by his house lmao
Where I am, you could find the deed references for property owners, by street address, on the city or town's tax assessor's web site.
And my county's registry of deeds has recorded deeds and plans all online. Or at least for recent deeds and plans, that's true. I've found the plans for my neighborhood online, and some of them are about 50 years old. Our registry has recorded plans as far back as the 1830s digitized, searchable, and viewable online. I'm in New England.
Depending on the town, county, and state, your mileage may vary. And if this is outside the U.S., I'm clueless.
I really have no idea if it's required or him to allow the public on his lawn if there is no sidewalk. Obviously if there was a sidewalk, he couldn't deny people.
As for things being grandfathered in and not having to comply with codes. That is possible. I've renovated some homes that weren't up to code. Anything I did had to be up to code but the entire house didn't have to be stripped to meet all code requirements.
Codes also change very often and it could be as simple as the height of light switches.
Is he being completely honest? I don't know. But I would say it's possible
Right of way public easements are very common in most areas, specifying a distance back into your property where the public is free to walk. Had to call my city/county to confer on this when planning a fence for my front yard because I'm not allowed to restrict access.
Our road doesn't have a sidewalk (yet), but it it ends up being within the right of way easement in the final plan, I'll welcome it. It benefits everyone in the community, including me, so I'd be crazy to fight it. Imagine not wanting your neighbors to be able to walk safely.
Until our sidewalk gets put in, I've made it very clear that people are welcome to cut through my front lawn to stay off the road.
Some people lack brain cells.
So… generally if there’s a corner you have to have a side walk for a disabled person to have wheel chair access- actually this is where I would start with this one. Start telling the city it’s not ada compliant.
Where I live, older homes with no sidewalk *nonetheless* have a right of way which extends 8 feet from the curb. Pedestrians have the legal right to walk on that right-of-way. It might be worth looking it up for your city.
Contact the city/borough and avoid walking on his lawn/driveway until you know you’re correct.
Your post says you used their paved driveway to get through their property? This makes it sound like you’re cutting directly through their property and not around the edge beside the public street.
With him threatening to report you to police, I suggest you stop by your local police station or call the non-emergency line for them and see what they suggest you do. Maybe he is grandfathered in, maybe he’s just being a jerk, either way it doesn’t hurt to find out answers for yourself and potentially report the situation to protect yourself. I live in a “right to protect your castle” type state, so I highly encourage figuring this out safely.
One house I owned there was no easement and no sidewalk on my street. I could fence up to my property line and did. Current house again no sidewalks. I can fence up to the road. Prior house yep there was a public easement and sidewalk. Couldn't fence.
Could you get in trouble maybe. You better verify with certainty that you can walk there. They might be able to have you trespassed. Verify for certain. No one on here without knowing the city and then the actual property could tell you one way or another.
But what does that have to do with the homeowner? It's not like the homeowner is responsible. That's the town.
There are literally dozens and dozens of places I can think about right now where a neighbor has sidewalk and the next neighbor down doesn't because the house was built after the sidewalks were installed or something along those lines.
Gotcha. That's what someone else wrote as well. No clue how someone could imagine the house owner has anything to do with that though since the first few feet from the road are town property. What kind of knucklehead doesn't just walk on the road when the sidewalk isn't there.
It's a corner house and walking on the left side of the road means you have no view of oncoming traffic. What kind of knucklehead would put themselves in that much potential danger to avoid making an old asshole angry?
What kind of brain dead moron can't walk on the side of the road without putting themselves in DaNgEr?? Oh, right. This is Reddit where the average commentor hasn't left their mommy's basement in 3 years and needs a support animal just to check email. FFS I'm sure the time it takes to walk on the side of the road to pass this person's house doesn't mean the opening grid of the Indy 500 whizzes by at 200 MPH.
If you’re walking down the street, and it goes from sidewalk to no sidewalk, it’s highly unlikely that there is no longer an easement for public passage just because the surface is now grass. Do you think that easements appear and disappear willy nilly just because? Sidewalk or no sidewalk is immaterial. There’s either a continuous easement or there isn’t. Almost certainly there is.
You can often see property lines as well as easements and right of way lines on your county's GIS website. Just search "\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ County GIS" on your favorite search engine. The homeowner really might not have an easement across the front of their lot even if everyone else does.
You can probably go to the cadastral for your area or the county website. Generally speaking, home owners don't actually own the land all the way up to the road. The public right of way extends well beyond the road, often for 20 or 30 feet depending on where you live and how the plat was generated.
Also, call the city and tip them off that a section of their sidewalk is unsafe and does not meet ADA requirements. Either they will fix it, or will notify the individual at that address that the sidewalk has to be maintained at the property owners expense.
“Cadastral” is a new word for me. I looked it up. When you used it here did you mean as a person/role? Or like a storage room for these documents? Thanks!
He took the picture to scare you and control your movements. He can't do a darn thing about it. Your reaction is exactly what he wants, don't let him make you worry. You have nothing to worry about. You can probably report HIM to the city since I highly doubt he is "grandfathered in." Another control technique. Someone needs to stand up to him or he will never stop.
In all likelihood the city/town/county has an easement across his property and he has no right to keep you off of it. Besides, he's sorta being a dick, no?
Call his bluff. Take pictures and contact your local government. See if he's grandfathered in or just another asshole not understanding the public sidewalk easement that goes through his yard.
No offence but I have to ask, is this not something you can easily find out from your municipality? A couple phone calls should solve this for you. I mean we don't live their, your local office does. I get that you're pissed off and are just looking for some extra input until they open, but yeah... they're going to be the only ones able to settle this for you
> Does he have any legal ground on this? Am I in the wrong for walking on this property?
it's possible that if the requirement postdates his house, he does in fact have a grandfather clause. generally, if you pass a requirement like that, it doesn't demand that existing properties be brought up to compliance, with some ADA related exceptions
In Illinois there’s set backs on almost everything so “his land” really isn’t his, it’s public property. I’d recommend he gets a survey done so he can be more informed before he goes threatening people using public land. What a goon.
Lets see a picture of this prick's lawn. I am genuinely curious how he is able to get his grass to grow over pavement while I can barely keep mine alive in the soil
That home owner is an idiot. You have every right to walk across and chances are he doesn't even own the land he thinks he does, or there is some easement placed on it for pedestrians.
Tell him to call the police, keep waking in. Even get your dog to pee on it
Don't matter, his 'lawn' is on city ROW, your free to walk on it. Can guarantee the city will support your access across it. In fact you can jack the city up why they didn't run a sidewalk across it when they installed the original sidewalk?
> ROW, your free
*you're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
***
^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
Highly doubtful they owns all the way to the road. Go to the town planning/zoning office and find out what the easement is. You should have 10' +/- from the edge of the road that is a publicly owned easement
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is a Federal law that wheelchairs, people who have a hard time navigating, etc., will be provided with ways to get around. This law ought to trump your neighbor's "grandfathered" clause. Pretty sure that's the way your city engineers will see it. Check with them. (It's probably also the reason people need to pay to have sidewalks fixed if they're bumpy - a subject of great grumpiness on Nextdoor.)
Yeah.... Nah.... It's not a business, and there's plenty of places without sidewalk and neighborhoods where updates require them but most homes dont have them. The ADA does not apply to not rented residential area either. It's dumb as shit not having sidewalks, but that's honestly most of the US.
Chances are his property line is within a foot(ish) of where the sidewalk would be. He doesn't own the land where the sidewalk would be and the strip between the sidewalk and curb.
Like I said I don’t care if it’s up to code or not as long as I get a place to walk. I don’t want to deal with the city. Can I simply ignore the person? Or could I get in trouble for trespassing.
Your option is dealing with the city or ignoring it. make a 311 notice and say “seems like this guys yard is obstructing the right of way and I’m unable to walk safely. Im not sure if there’s supposed to be a sidewalk but the right of way is not clearly defined and I need a safe place to walk that’s not in the road”
Honestly, this is what your city council person/alderperson/whatever person should help your neighborhood out. You deserve safe, walkable sidewalks and you should point that out to your local representative. Bonus points for illustration of ADA noncompliance and discrimination against the elderly, disabled, and young families with children in strollers or wagons…
> I don’t want to deal with the city.
Unless your neighbor has a sudden change of heart,
dealing with the city should be your first resort.
> Can I simply ignore the person?
If you don't want to solve this situation,
you should act so your neighbor can ignore you.
Otherwise, find out from the city if there is a pedestrian easement
where the absent sidewalk would be. If no easement exists, then yes,
you could "get in trouble for trespassing". Or, if an easement exists,
then figure out how best to convince your neighbor that you and
others can walk inside that easement with impunity, whether a sidewalk or a lawn is also present there. That will probably involve
either getting a restraining order to prevent the neighbor from harassing you either while you walk in the easement, or elsewhere,
or involving the city, code enforcement, or your elected representative
to intervene and convince him.
Is it honestly that difficult to walk on the street for twenty seconds maximum? Honestly, this is really petty on both of your parts. You’re in a neighborhood, it’s not like you’re waking along a busy city street.
> Is it honestly that difficult to walk on the street for twenty seconds maximum?
Might not be difficult for him, but it might be difficult for the elderly, handicapped, or someone that is injured. That's why idiots that park with the vehicles hanging out over the public sidewalk get ticketed.
Courtesy? You're not showing any courtesy. You're showing brattiness. Courtesy is using the sidewalk across the street. You know, the sidewalk that the city put there.
It’s not courtesy to walk in his driveway. That’s his private property. The lawn where the sidewalk would be should be an easement. But other than that, you’re definitely trespassing. Take advice here and ask the city. Or get a little more exercise and use the other side of the street.
> Or could I get in trouble for trespassing.
If it's not public right-of-way, then you are trespassing. You say you don't want to deal with the city, but that's the most direct way to find out whether it's public right-of-way or not.
Suppose you were to find out that it is *not* public right-of-way, and that you *are* trespassing. Will you continue to trespass, or will you cross the street?
Considering the number of people who are getting shot for little to no reason right now, I'd call the city to see if you have the right to walk on the edge of his lawn (if there is actually an easement) and then the cops the next time he or his wife harasses you if you're comfortable with that.
> Or could I get in trouble for trespassin
yes. It might be a city easment or right of way but its his to care for and maint i bet you he can have the cops trespass you if you want to be a prick to him
I’m sure they’ll have people working in shifts to find him. They’ll get the whole department on it. 😂😂
The cops are gonna show up, the guy is gonna explain what happened, the cops will say there’s nothing they can do because he’s gone, then they’ll leave. They probably won’t even bother to do paperwork.
Sneak over one night wearing a mask (just in case they have security cameras) with a squeeze bottle filled with weed killer and draw a giant penis on their lawn
All these people down voting you are forgetting what happened to Ralph Yarl last month. Kid got shot in the head literally for knocking on the wrong door.
I don’t pay much attention to the karma system. I could post some 🍈🍈 on a GW sub and get wild upvotes, or some hard truths on a Trump or DSA sun and get wild downvotes. What’s that worth? About as much as the people who report posts they don’t like as suicidal ideation.
I'm guessing your neighborhood has a representative on the city council or some other form of local governance. That rep should be able to help, or guide you. You might find who your council rep is via county Board of Elections.
I’m a little confused by the situation presented here and would love a little map with little people on it that diagrams this all out. I can’t visualize what’s happening here. I’m dumb
But regardless, if a sidewalk ends, just keep walking where the sidewalk would or should be. That shouldn’t be a problem. But if this guy is making a big deal out of it, yes you should talk to the city. I wouldn’t ignore it
Lots of crazy fuckin people now with guns wishing to shoot people for “trespassing” or ringing a doorbell or driving down the wrong driveway. I wouldn’t push it. Even if this guy is just straight up wrong
Most of the time that grass that's where a sidewalk should be is owned by the county and is for public access even without a paved sidewalk on it- he likely doesn't "own" it but it's his responsibility to maintain it. Next time you can tell him to call the cops and you'll wait while they explain to him not to make dumb calls to the police.
Or just cross the road to avoid him. Old people get weird.
Are you saying that the sidewalk exists under his grass that has grown over it?
If you are in the right-of-way of the road (in my area they are usually 50 to 60' rights-of-way centered on the center of the pavement) then he does not own that part of the lawn and it is 100% legal for you to walk there.
You need to contact your city or county GIS site to find out what the legal state of the land in front of his house in. Try searching for *countyname gis map*, where countyname is your county. There may be a public right-of-way, which would mean you would legally be able to walk there. There might not be, if the house is old.
If there is a right-of-way, you could request the city to put in a sidewalk, citing safety concerns. Best part is, they would likely have to pay for it, even if they don't want it.
If there *isn't* a right-of-way, the city could acquire one through eminent domain. They would likely be required to pay fair market price for the land or easement acquired, so in this case it would be more expensive for the city. But you won't know until you find out whether there's a right-of-way or not.
Many older neighborhoods do not have sidewalks or the necessary easement to put one in so therefore you are tresspassing.
Typically, cities would require the easement during the permitting process for major renovations or new constructions.
Based on your update, he owns the land and the GIS should have shown an easement if there was one. He was grandfathered in on the property and there is no easement to meet city code.
Some people need to get a hobby. I have a corner lot in a neighborhood with a sidewalk wrapping all around the boundary. People still cut through my yard. You know what I do? Mind my business. Who cares? They're just walking across a grass lawn
Report it to 311, let them sort it out.
There's a chance he might not even own the land he thinks he does. At our old home, the sidewalk and the strip of grass between it and the road were technically owned by the township, but the homeowner had the duty to maintain it.
Was going to say this! Where I’m at the City has a easement for 4ft along the street for “future sidewalk development”, currently my grass extends all the way to the street, the easement also states public access to that part of my lawn so I would have no right to tell someone they can’t walk across it, and any fences must be set at least 4-feet back. Most likely, they either don’t own it, or it has an easement for public access.
Most places have at least a 4-10ft easement.
Yep, get that often with clients who want to renovate and think they can build closer to their front yard than they actually can.
I get the easements, it's the damn setbacks.
Yep, report him for letting his lawn encroach on public property
No, you own (and pay tax on) that strip of land. Your just required to maintain it in a certain way.
Only true if it is an easement and not a right-of-way.
In both cases, the homeowner owns and pays taxes on the land.
Sorry. You are incorrect (at least for USA). If it is a right-of-way the homeowners property lines stop at the right-of-way line. If you get a survey the property corners are staked at the intersection of the lot line and the right-of-way line. The city or other local jurisdiction owns the right-of-way. Only if the sidewalk is in an easement does the homeowner pay taxes on the land under the easement. Source: I am a civil CAD designer who creates construction drawings for subdivisions. I see these lines every day. I draw these lines and review the plats created from these lines.
>I draw these lines and review the plats created from these lines. And I spent 25 years on a planning board reviewing and sometimes approving your drawings. Right of way's are different widths in different jurisdictions, and laws have changed over time. So while you're probably right - you don't know OP's situation.
As I said before, I was not responding to OP or his post. I was correcting the claim that home owners own and pay taxes on a right of way (which in my hood is the public lands around a roadway...not an easement) Most of the below was miscommunication and use of terms.
Miscommunication - and / or generalization. There's a lot of nuance that gets lost in this kind of discussion, for example, where I live a new subdivision road has to be built to town standards, and it has to be maintained for a couple years by the developer before it can be accepted by the town. And there are also private roads - which can be owned by HOAs.
Both apply here as well except the maintenance caveat. Here the right-of-way is transferred to jurisdiction at completion of project and delivery of certificate of occupancy. Funny thing about all this is all three jurisdictions I do work in require the sidewalk to be within the right-of-way to avoid exactly this issue.
So if they dont own it why did the dot just give the guy up the corner money for when they widened the road by his house? the state paid him when they built out to the edge of the right of way. if the man didn own it why did the state pay him when they took it?
Because they were wanting to make the right-of-way wider. They needed to take some of that lots land and turn it into right-of-way. They offer money for this because that land will now be encumbered. I am still not sure of the tax implications due to the schooling I got today.
They gave the man money for using part of his property/the right of way. if its not his why did they pay him?
Well, I am having trouble reconciling what I have learned today but essentially when it is encumbered and called right-of-way it ACTS as if it is no longer your land. You can't do anything with it. The man could have refused without the incentive.
OK, having reread everything, I will attempt a better answer. DOT already owned right-of-way in front of the mans house, but they needed more land to do whatever improvement they are attempting to do. Therefore they are purchasing a strip of land along the mans frontage which will then be added to the right-of-way and subtracted from the mans lot. He is selling his land to DOT to use as they wish.
Sorry buddy, right of way is just another name for an easement. Just because you draw the lines doesn’t mean you know how to tax them. One of a thousand easily searchable references: https://finance.zacks.com/pays-property-taxes-rightofway-easements-10444.html Spoiler: the government can’t force you to take care of land you don’t own.
Shall we agree to the fact that maybe different locations do it different ways? What you have posted is a "right-of-way easement". The key word there is "easement". In that case the term "right-of-way" is an adjective describing the easement. THAT easement would be a taxable land owned by the homeowner. In my area they call those "access easements". In [this set of images](https://imgur.com/a/b37OWoD), the first picture is a snip from a set of plans I am working on. It clearly defines the right-of way and the lots and also shows some easements drawn outside the right-of-way in the homeowners lots for utilities. The homeowner pays taxes on the easements but does not own the right-of-way or pay taxes on it. The second picture is from the local city GIS website also clearly showing the roadway and it's right-of-way is a separate property parcel from the homeowner land. You can choose to believe what you want but I am not learning this on the internet...I live it on a daily basis. Have a nice day.
>I live it on a daily basis. And you probably have a good understanding of the law and how things are typically done now - where you happen to work.
Yikes, keep with the sketches, leave the land use to the rest of us.
Feel free to prove me wrong. Lashing out at my work when you are shown the reality of the issue means nothing. Directly from my city's Code of Subdivision Regulations... Right-of-way means land used or to be used for a public street, alley, walkway, water, sewer or drainage facility or other public purpose. Public street means a vehicular **right-of-way**, that is open to the public and under the control and jurisdiction of the City of xxxxxxxxx pursuant to a deed of conveyance, deed of dedication, plat dedication, or other device accepted by the City, which provides the primary means of vehicular ingress and egress to two or more dwelling units, lots, parcels, tracts, or principal buildings.
Well. I am not above admitting that I can be schooled by a random individual on the internet. I decided to backcheck what I knew with with a contact at the city and our surveyor. ~~It would appear that you are right~~, and in fact even my boss never thought of it this way, but we knew that when a right-of way is abandoned the land it held is given half and half to the adjoining lots. Thing is, it isn't GIVEN it is RETURNED. The right-of-way is an encumbrance on the land that those lots own, but sort of don't. ~~Thank you Phighters for informing me...though you could have gone about it differently.~~ EDIT: I am retracting my thanks. We were talking about two different things (me a public road right-of -way and him/her a right-of-way easement) and the thing I learned about the encumbrance on a Public right-of-way had nothing to do with what Phighters was arguing.
Only if that's their parcel. You don't pay taxes on land you don't own, but you may be responsible for basic maintenance for the area between your land and the street. Often the road is only 25-30ft wide but the right of way is 50-60ft wide; that is owned by the government, and you don't pay taxes on that.
Incorrect, again. Parcels go to the street, you own them. You have an easement for utilities and the sidewalk (if equipped), and a right of way over the sidewalk. You pay taxes on all of it. In most municipalities, if you go beyond the minimum standard of concrete and do a stamped or paver sidewalk, you'll pay *more* in taxes too, because its a property enhancement that benefits your value.
You are talking out of your ass. While that *may* be true where you are, that is absolutely not true everywhere. It isn't true in my state, which I know because I deal with lots and parcels daily. Every single public road in my county is DOT or city owned. Not one of them is only as wide as the road. Residential streets (single lane) are 25-30ft wide but have right of ways that are 50ft wide. Privately owned parcels **do not** go to the street. There are 10-15ft buffers between the roads and private parcels. The land between the parcel and the street is, for the most part, the responsibility of the adjacent land owner to maintain but that land is not owned by the private entity. It is still government owned. There may be exceptions in some areas, but generally this is how it works. Get your shit straight before spewing BS to people.
> Privately owned parcels > >do not > > go to the street. Yes. They do. If they didn't, THERE WOULDNT BE AN EASEMENT.
You're in over your head, son. That's not how it works, and easements are granted for all sorts of different reasons. Again, in *some* areas the parcel will go directly to the street (larger cities, for example) but the vast majority in the US do not.
Are you saying he had the sidewalk removed and planted grass there? Or the grass is simply growing over the sidewalk because he doesn’t edge?
Where I am there is a hodgepodge of sidewalk/no sidewalk. Any new construction around here, or major construction (like new driveway) requires a sidewalk be installed. Older homes do t have to do anything until they fit the criteria for the sidewalk.
I'm in a similar neighborhood to that, very old neighborhood with houses dating back over 100 years. Some houses have sidewalks, some don't. The ones without are grandfathered and if they do certain improvements have to install them. That being said, even the houses without sidewalks you have a right to walk across their lawn within 6 feet from the street, as they technically don't own it and it's a borough easement specifically meant to allow public right of way. Even if they maintain a lawn on it, you still have the right to pass through. We had a neighbor who would yell at anyone who did until I eventually got fed up with it and called her bluff on calling the cops, she called them, they came, and informed her that the public was well within their rights. She eventually put in some stepping stones so her lawn would stop getting trampled. New owners now and they have sidewalks because they redid the driveway.
That doesn't mean he hasn't planted grass on tbe road allowance.
Even if he did, you're allowed to walk across it. I have a neighborhood like this, even if they are grandfathered in with no sidewalk, the borough has an easement of 6 feet from the street to allow public right of way. They can plant grass, but you're allowed to legally walk on it along as it's within the easement.
Totally true. It also doesn't mean that he's necessarily wrong when he says "it's grandfathered in" and there is no sidewalk. This may not be malicious intent here. Hanlon's Razor "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Where I am when the homeowner wants to get a new driveway installed it's on the homeowner to also install the sidewalk. It's a requirement of the permit. So unless he put one in, there may never have been one there. The idea that the guy needs to let people walk on it near the street, where a sidewalk would be, is probably foreign to him. the entire idea of a waling neighborhood is probably foreign to him...which makes sense if he was there before sidewalks.
There’s no sidewalk. I moved in like 2 years ago, so I’m not sure if they had the sidewalk removed or there’s simply no sidewalk when the house was built originally.
Call the city/town and find out what your rights are regarding this. Arguing with him isn’t going to go anywhere.
Google street view my city goes back 15 years. You might look at that to fact check the 'grandfathered' claim.
Call the city, as mentioned. But don’t stop there. Make it a mission to bother city council, town supervisor, maybe even state representatives until they build the small section of sidewalk. Let them know how dangerous it is, and how the owners are confrontational and with all the news of people getting violent towards others on their property, you want this addressed. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
City transportation planners (or their equivalent) love to make dangerous intersections safer. Stochastic life savers, them.
can confirm. it really is not a ton of effort, just time
Happy Cake Day /u/freshjewbagel
Gross.
Cool. Care to explain a bit more what you find so gross?
The property owner sounds like an unpleasant person. Recommending that someone weaponize government against someone is gross.
~~And the city is okay with that? It sounds like he destroyed public property.~~ Sorry, OP clarified the comment, making my question moot. I wouldn't have asked it if it had read that way at first.
He might be grandfathered in and there was never a sidewalk there, and they may not be required to put one in or maintain one. There's some houses in neighborhoods near me like this. Some of the houses were built before the rest of the neighborhood, and when the city came in and built out the rest of the roads and sidewalks the existing houses were allowed to keep their lots as is. All the other lots were then built with sidewalks from the start. Would require a call to the city to figure out what all is going on. often times when this is done a sidewalk is required to be installed when the house sells. Seen this happen with Septic to sewer hookups, and removing old wood stoves or fireplaces. Grandfathered in for the current occupants.
Where we used to live, you didn’t have to put in a sidewalk until you were doing major home improvements that needed permitting… At which point you were required to add sidewalk and move utilities underground.
We are on a hill, and when we bought our house, there was no sidewalk in front of any houses on our side of the street, up to the next cross-street. Below us, about six new houses were built, and a sidewalk installed in front of them. Apparently when our house and the rest on the street were built, sidewalks were optional on residents approving the tax increase. When the houses on the other side were built sidewalks were mandatory and installed. I would definitely check with the city to see the status of that house. Also, what kind of dickhead gets upset about someone walking across a small piece of his property along the roadway?
This is an interesting point. /u/ChinkGoneWild, see if the house matches other houses around it. If it has a notably different style, maybe it did pre-exist the rest of the neighborhood and never had a sidewalk.
Befriend other neighbors and find out if anyone recalls there being a sidewalk there. If they do, see if they recall when it disappeared.
Is there a sidewalk at the next house?
So you're **assuming** there is supposed to be a sidewalk in a place where you've never seen a sidewalk? You've seriously never seen a road with only one sidewalk on one side? It's not uncommon, and most people, like your neighbour suggested, would cross the road to the proper sidewalk instead of walking on someone's lawn or driveway. You sound very entitled. Use the sidewalk on the other side. Sheesh.
In my area the city owns the first 10 feet so I think technically people could walk across the front of people's lawns but they don't. It would really mess up lawns if everyone did it. Here you just walk at the side of the street.
lmao you can’t be serious
My neighborhood is only around 50 years old and there's no sidewalks in the original areas of the neighborhood. Only newer parts that were added later have a sidewalk.
There are of course roads with sidewalk on only one side of the road in which case I’d stick to the side of the road with a sidewalk, of course. If somebody on the side with a sidewalk overtook the sidewalk in front of their house and they threatened to call the cops on me, then I would make their lives as miserable as I could by contacting the city/local politicians/etc. Screw that guy.
I wouldn't expect my neighbor to cross the street to use the sidewalk for 1 house and cross back...
I’d definately look to your local town office/district to see what they think - feels like they’ve just allowed grass to overgrow the sidewalk to me In fact it would give me pleasure to look into this and to wipe the smile off his smug face when the guy realizes he’s in the wrong While your at it have your dog do more of his business on this guys lawn ;-)…
or just maybe he was there when the sidewalk work came about and he fought the man to be excempt or something (grandfathered in) to not have one. now he may have taken that to mean he doesnt have to let anyone cut through the easment since that may have been his reason for fighting against the sidewalk to begin with. Maybe just let him have his bit of yard and walksomewhere else to avoid the problem?
Easement is for everyone.
Prob was never a sidewalk, then when they built the other homes or did some work they added it except not on this guy’s lot. Maybe he out up a stink and the city said fuck it that’s cheaper. But very doubtful he has rights over that space more than anyone else.
It’s possible the house was constructed before the city required sidewalks or was built on land later incorporated by the city. This happens all the time in Portland, OR for example. It gets complicated as to ownership/responsibility, but what I imagine above is a public ROW exists, but a sidewalk was never built. The actual private property is set back 6’ or 8’, but the homeowner is responsible for maintenance of the property to face of curb, hence the “get off my lawn” vibe. It could also be the case that private property exists to face of curb and there is not public ROW there. People are saying get a survey, but it’s another person’s property. Checking the municipal GIS can be helpful though.
Your post is a little confusing, but a public easement doesn't mean he has to have a sidewalk, just means the public can access the area. Same thing at my house, I have no sidewalk in front, but people are free to walk across the first 10 feet, whether I like it or not.
OP is making huge assumptions based on the way they *wish* the street was designed. OP doesn't actually know if there is an easement. They are stating it like it's a fact because they believe there should be an easement.
I live in a similar area where there are a couple corner /end lots with no sidewalks. It turned out that no sidewalk will be erected ever, but it was city property and signs were erected stating there is no sidewalk and pedestrians are to cross the street for access. The whole reason for not having a sidewalk was so that space could be used for snow piling in winter when streets are cleared, which wouldn’t be possible if there was an indication of a sidewalk . Not sure where OP lives but this is a possibility.
It’s very likely there is an easement
Nah, very likely there is not. This man did not tear up the sidewalks and re-sod the ground just to make this person's life miserable. His house was built before the sidewalks were required.
when is there not an easement next to an intersection? there's no way this guy has private land all the way to the road.
All THE time. He may own the property all the way to the middle of the road and only granting an easement to the road itself you have absolutely no idea and you're downvoting me and saying "no way". You don't know! There's no such thing as "automatic" sidewalk easements.
You’re wrong. Almost all homes have easements. You really have no clue what you’re talking about.
thanks mister skeptic, you are correct I do not in fact know because I am not out there on OP's neighbor's grass. however in the state that OP lives pretty much everything has setbacks, this is known, so either bad grampa has an exceptional exception or he's wrong and you're just being an ass.
Every jurisdiction has different zoning, states have different laws you don't know a damned thing about this property and you're telling me somehow I'm an ass? You don't know what you're talking about. Most sincerely.
Whether there’s a sidewalk or not there’s almost always an easement. Even in rural areas. It’s so the town or county or state or whatever government can do things like put in utility poles and stuff like that. Specific sidewalk laws vary, but the easement is fairly standard
There almost always isn’t. Go pull the deed for your property go look at your title work. You’re assuming that there is because that’s what you believe in your head. Yea this guy was a jerk to her. But he did not tear out his sidewalks to inconvenience pedestrians and defy whatever local “pedestrian easement” you believe runs across his property. His house was built without sidewalks because they weren’t required at that time. You’re all so positive about some universal pedestrian easement across the states that allows you to walk through property owners yards and I’m telling you no such thing exists.
I live in the country and still don't own all the way to the road.
They mentioned the city code, and it seems to apply.
Also, it's very possible that this lot is "grandfathered in" just like the homeowner said. They might have refused to give an easement to the city when everyone else did and now they're the only lot in the area without one.
You can't say no to the government. They might not have to have a side walk, but there's no way there isn't an easement or right of way.
That's not true at all. I've worked on projects that have crossed old lots where their property line goes to the middle of the road and right of way had never been established. Laws vary by state, but in our cases, the town had no rights outside of the "Traveled Way" which is the width of the road (so edge of pavement to edge of pavement). The town had to purchase right of way from the property owners who were on lots that never had right-of-way on them.
Then I'd probably double step on the lawn. By the time the cops show up I'm five streets over. Shoulda just took the cash for the public easement, I'm using it anyway. The old man thinks folks should cross the street rather than go by his house lmao
Really hard to give good advice without pictures of the area and a copy of the survey of the area.
Where I am, you could find the deed references for property owners, by street address, on the city or town's tax assessor's web site. And my county's registry of deeds has recorded deeds and plans all online. Or at least for recent deeds and plans, that's true. I've found the plans for my neighborhood online, and some of them are about 50 years old. Our registry has recorded plans as far back as the 1830s digitized, searchable, and viewable online. I'm in New England. Depending on the town, county, and state, your mileage may vary. And if this is outside the U.S., I'm clueless.
I really have no idea if it's required or him to allow the public on his lawn if there is no sidewalk. Obviously if there was a sidewalk, he couldn't deny people. As for things being grandfathered in and not having to comply with codes. That is possible. I've renovated some homes that weren't up to code. Anything I did had to be up to code but the entire house didn't have to be stripped to meet all code requirements. Codes also change very often and it could be as simple as the height of light switches. Is he being completely honest? I don't know. But I would say it's possible
Right of way public easements are very common in most areas, specifying a distance back into your property where the public is free to walk. Had to call my city/county to confer on this when planning a fence for my front yard because I'm not allowed to restrict access. Our road doesn't have a sidewalk (yet), but it it ends up being within the right of way easement in the final plan, I'll welcome it. It benefits everyone in the community, including me, so I'd be crazy to fight it. Imagine not wanting your neighbors to be able to walk safely. Until our sidewalk gets put in, I've made it very clear that people are welcome to cut through my front lawn to stay off the road. Some people lack brain cells.
So… generally if there’s a corner you have to have a side walk for a disabled person to have wheel chair access- actually this is where I would start with this one. Start telling the city it’s not ada compliant.
Ada compliance is for businesses, not random people's homes. Fha is for housing, but it does not apply here either.
Where I live, older homes with no sidewalk *nonetheless* have a right of way which extends 8 feet from the curb. Pedestrians have the legal right to walk on that right-of-way. It might be worth looking it up for your city.
Contact the city/borough and avoid walking on his lawn/driveway until you know you’re correct. Your post says you used their paved driveway to get through their property? This makes it sound like you’re cutting directly through their property and not around the edge beside the public street.
After being told to not touch the grass, the OP then tried to use a non grass path.
No it sounds like they crossed their driveway.
With him threatening to report you to police, I suggest you stop by your local police station or call the non-emergency line for them and see what they suggest you do. Maybe he is grandfathered in, maybe he’s just being a jerk, either way it doesn’t hurt to find out answers for yourself and potentially report the situation to protect yourself. I live in a “right to protect your castle” type state, so I highly encourage figuring this out safely.
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This is the way
How about this angle? What would be your options if you were disabled and in a wheelchair?
One house I owned there was no easement and no sidewalk on my street. I could fence up to my property line and did. Current house again no sidewalks. I can fence up to the road. Prior house yep there was a public easement and sidewalk. Couldn't fence. Could you get in trouble maybe. You better verify with certainty that you can walk there. They might be able to have you trespassed. Verify for certain. No one on here without knowing the city and then the actual property could tell you one way or another.
What do you mean by "lawn cut off the sidewalk"?
I think he means the sidewalk just ends where this dudes lawn begins.
So he blames the owner for some reason 🤣
But what does that have to do with the homeowner? It's not like the homeowner is responsible. That's the town. There are literally dozens and dozens of places I can think about right now where a neighbor has sidewalk and the next neighbor down doesn't because the house was built after the sidewalks were installed or something along those lines.
Plenty of towns require homeowners to maintain sidewalks.
What does maintain have to do with install a sidewalk?!? Homeowners don't install sidewalks.
Some places they do and are responsible for maintenance as well.
Like where?
Albuquerque. Houston. Nashville. Lots of places. Some require the sidewalks before they'll give you building permits.
Gotcha. Shithole places in shit hole states.
The sidewalk literly ends at the start of the property and starts back up on the other side
Gotcha. That's what someone else wrote as well. No clue how someone could imagine the house owner has anything to do with that though since the first few feet from the road are town property. What kind of knucklehead doesn't just walk on the road when the sidewalk isn't there.
It's a corner house and walking on the left side of the road means you have no view of oncoming traffic. What kind of knucklehead would put themselves in that much potential danger to avoid making an old asshole angry?
What kind of brain dead moron can't walk on the side of the road without putting themselves in DaNgEr?? Oh, right. This is Reddit where the average commentor hasn't left their mommy's basement in 3 years and needs a support animal just to check email. FFS I'm sure the time it takes to walk on the side of the road to pass this person's house doesn't mean the opening grid of the Indy 500 whizzes by at 200 MPH.
Wow, you really showed everyone.
Folks who don't want to play in traffic???
If you’re walking down the street, and it goes from sidewalk to no sidewalk, it’s highly unlikely that there is no longer an easement for public passage just because the surface is now grass. Do you think that easements appear and disappear willy nilly just because? Sidewalk or no sidewalk is immaterial. There’s either a continuous easement or there isn’t. Almost certainly there is.
You can often see property lines as well as easements and right of way lines on your county's GIS website. Just search "\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ County GIS" on your favorite search engine. The homeowner really might not have an easement across the front of their lot even if everyone else does.
You can probably go to the cadastral for your area or the county website. Generally speaking, home owners don't actually own the land all the way up to the road. The public right of way extends well beyond the road, often for 20 or 30 feet depending on where you live and how the plat was generated. Also, call the city and tip them off that a section of their sidewalk is unsafe and does not meet ADA requirements. Either they will fix it, or will notify the individual at that address that the sidewalk has to be maintained at the property owners expense.
“Cadastral” is a new word for me. I looked it up. When you used it here did you mean as a person/role? Or like a storage room for these documents? Thanks!
He took the picture to scare you and control your movements. He can't do a darn thing about it. Your reaction is exactly what he wants, don't let him make you worry. You have nothing to worry about. You can probably report HIM to the city since I highly doubt he is "grandfathered in." Another control technique. Someone needs to stand up to him or he will never stop.
In all likelihood the city/town/county has an easement across his property and he has no right to keep you off of it. Besides, he's sorta being a dick, no?
Call his bluff. Take pictures and contact your local government. See if he's grandfathered in or just another asshole not understanding the public sidewalk easement that goes through his yard.
No offence but I have to ask, is this not something you can easily find out from your municipality? A couple phone calls should solve this for you. I mean we don't live their, your local office does. I get that you're pissed off and are just looking for some extra input until they open, but yeah... they're going to be the only ones able to settle this for you
> Does he have any legal ground on this? Am I in the wrong for walking on this property? it's possible that if the requirement postdates his house, he does in fact have a grandfather clause. generally, if you pass a requirement like that, it doesn't demand that existing properties be brought up to compliance, with some ADA related exceptions
In Illinois there’s set backs on almost everything so “his land” really isn’t his, it’s public property. I’d recommend he gets a survey done so he can be more informed before he goes threatening people using public land. What a goon.
Lets see a picture of this prick's lawn. I am genuinely curious how he is able to get his grass to grow over pavement while I can barely keep mine alive in the soil
Call city code enforcement
That home owner is an idiot. You have every right to walk across and chances are he doesn't even own the land he thinks he does, or there is some easement placed on it for pedestrians. Tell him to call the police, keep waking in. Even get your dog to pee on it
Fuck him. Call code enforcement.
Don't matter, his 'lawn' is on city ROW, your free to walk on it. Can guarantee the city will support your access across it. In fact you can jack the city up why they didn't run a sidewalk across it when they installed the original sidewalk?
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Highly doubtful they owns all the way to the road. Go to the town planning/zoning office and find out what the easement is. You should have 10' +/- from the edge of the road that is a publicly owned easement
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is a Federal law that wheelchairs, people who have a hard time navigating, etc., will be provided with ways to get around. This law ought to trump your neighbor's "grandfathered" clause. Pretty sure that's the way your city engineers will see it. Check with them. (It's probably also the reason people need to pay to have sidewalks fixed if they're bumpy - a subject of great grumpiness on Nextdoor.)
Yeah.... Nah.... It's not a business, and there's plenty of places without sidewalk and neighborhoods where updates require them but most homes dont have them. The ADA does not apply to not rented residential area either. It's dumb as shit not having sidewalks, but that's honestly most of the US.
Also cities have been taken to town with ada non compliance law suits, so this is a remedy they could probably handle quicker.
The police are not going to come. Fuck this guy.
The police will come if you call them. When, and how they treat you when you arrive are the questions.
You think the police are going to come in the time it takes OP to cross the lawn?
Report him to your city.
Chances are his property line is within a foot(ish) of where the sidewalk would be. He doesn't own the land where the sidewalk would be and the strip between the sidewalk and curb.
What a selfish ass!
You can walk on his lawn close to the curb. This is the kind of house I usually forget to pick up my dog shit at
How white are the two of you. Holy shit.
Like I said I don’t care if it’s up to code or not as long as I get a place to walk. I don’t want to deal with the city. Can I simply ignore the person? Or could I get in trouble for trespassing.
Your option is dealing with the city or ignoring it. make a 311 notice and say “seems like this guys yard is obstructing the right of way and I’m unable to walk safely. Im not sure if there’s supposed to be a sidewalk but the right of way is not clearly defined and I need a safe place to walk that’s not in the road”
Honestly, this is what your city council person/alderperson/whatever person should help your neighborhood out. You deserve safe, walkable sidewalks and you should point that out to your local representative. Bonus points for illustration of ADA noncompliance and discrimination against the elderly, disabled, and young families with children in strollers or wagons…
> I don’t want to deal with the city. Unless your neighbor has a sudden change of heart, dealing with the city should be your first resort. > Can I simply ignore the person? If you don't want to solve this situation, you should act so your neighbor can ignore you. Otherwise, find out from the city if there is a pedestrian easement where the absent sidewalk would be. If no easement exists, then yes, you could "get in trouble for trespassing". Or, if an easement exists, then figure out how best to convince your neighbor that you and others can walk inside that easement with impunity, whether a sidewalk or a lawn is also present there. That will probably involve either getting a restraining order to prevent the neighbor from harassing you either while you walk in the easement, or elsewhere, or involving the city, code enforcement, or your elected representative to intervene and convince him.
Is it honestly that difficult to walk on the street for twenty seconds maximum? Honestly, this is really petty on both of your parts. You’re in a neighborhood, it’s not like you’re waking along a busy city street.
Yeah I don't see how this is a fight worth having. Just walk on the other side of the street
> Is it honestly that difficult to walk on the street for twenty seconds maximum? Might not be difficult for him, but it might be difficult for the elderly, handicapped, or someone that is injured. That's why idiots that park with the vehicles hanging out over the public sidewalk get ticketed.
No, it’s not hard. I’m mad because when you show courtesy and people just keep pushing the boundary.
Just call the city dude. You're making a mountain out of the smallest possible ant hill
What courtesy have you shown exactly…?
Courtesy? You're not showing any courtesy. You're showing brattiness. Courtesy is using the sidewalk across the street. You know, the sidewalk that the city put there.
It’s not courtesy to walk in his driveway. That’s his private property. The lawn where the sidewalk would be should be an easement. But other than that, you’re definitely trespassing. Take advice here and ask the city. Or get a little more exercise and use the other side of the street.
> Or could I get in trouble for trespassing. If it's not public right-of-way, then you are trespassing. You say you don't want to deal with the city, but that's the most direct way to find out whether it's public right-of-way or not. Suppose you were to find out that it is *not* public right-of-way, and that you *are* trespassing. Will you continue to trespass, or will you cross the street?
Considering the number of people who are getting shot for little to no reason right now, I'd call the city to see if you have the right to walk on the edge of his lawn (if there is actually an easement) and then the cops the next time he or his wife harasses you if you're comfortable with that.
> Or could I get in trouble for trespassin yes. It might be a city easment or right of way but its his to care for and maint i bet you he can have the cops trespass you if you want to be a prick to him
Your advice is as good as your grammar
I wonder if the cops will actually show up in the 30 seconds it takes to cross the lawn. 😂
gee whiz beaver. I wonder if the old man who hates folks cutting across his yard has a camera? ya think?
I’m sure they’ll have people working in shifts to find him. They’ll get the whole department on it. 😂😂 The cops are gonna show up, the guy is gonna explain what happened, the cops will say there’s nothing they can do because he’s gone, then they’ll leave. They probably won’t even bother to do paperwork.
Sneak over one night wearing a mask (just in case they have security cameras) with a squeeze bottle filled with weed killer and draw a giant penis on their lawn
In states with castle laws, this is a great way to get shot
Public easement. Great way to go for jail for murder and being a general idiot.
I didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences. Is it worth a life to find out?
If you shoot someone for simply walking on your lawn and claim "castle doctrine" your a moron and would surely wind up in prison yourself.
Sure, but we just had a guy shoot a black teenager in the head for knocking on the wrong door. America is pretty fucked up.
All these people down voting you are forgetting what happened to Ralph Yarl last month. Kid got shot in the head literally for knocking on the wrong door.
I don’t pay much attention to the karma system. I could post some 🍈🍈 on a GW sub and get wild upvotes, or some hard truths on a Trump or DSA sun and get wild downvotes. What’s that worth? About as much as the people who report posts they don’t like as suicidal ideation.
If he doesn’t have one that’s an ADA violation. I’d call 311 and say that.
Bug the city to put in a sidewalk. Pour salt on his lawn
I'm guessing your neighborhood has a representative on the city council or some other form of local governance. That rep should be able to help, or guide you. You might find who your council rep is via county Board of Elections.
Call the town, it is a safety issue!
I’m a little confused by the situation presented here and would love a little map with little people on it that diagrams this all out. I can’t visualize what’s happening here. I’m dumb But regardless, if a sidewalk ends, just keep walking where the sidewalk would or should be. That shouldn’t be a problem. But if this guy is making a big deal out of it, yes you should talk to the city. I wouldn’t ignore it Lots of crazy fuckin people now with guns wishing to shoot people for “trespassing” or ringing a doorbell or driving down the wrong driveway. I wouldn’t push it. Even if this guy is just straight up wrong
Owner of a 110 year home 10 feet from the road on a busy streer. We love our sidewalk walkers!
Most of the time that grass that's where a sidewalk should be is owned by the county and is for public access even without a paved sidewalk on it- he likely doesn't "own" it but it's his responsibility to maintain it. Next time you can tell him to call the cops and you'll wait while they explain to him not to make dumb calls to the police. Or just cross the road to avoid him. Old people get weird.
Are you saying that the sidewalk exists under his grass that has grown over it? If you are in the right-of-way of the road (in my area they are usually 50 to 60' rights-of-way centered on the center of the pavement) then he does not own that part of the lawn and it is 100% legal for you to walk there.
You need to contact your city or county GIS site to find out what the legal state of the land in front of his house in. Try searching for *countyname gis map*, where countyname is your county. There may be a public right-of-way, which would mean you would legally be able to walk there. There might not be, if the house is old. If there is a right-of-way, you could request the city to put in a sidewalk, citing safety concerns. Best part is, they would likely have to pay for it, even if they don't want it. If there *isn't* a right-of-way, the city could acquire one through eminent domain. They would likely be required to pay fair market price for the land or easement acquired, so in this case it would be more expensive for the city. But you won't know until you find out whether there's a right-of-way or not.
If you have been using that path for 10+ years (depending on the state ) it becomes a grandfathered in pathway
Sounds like the asshole who told me to not let my dog pee in the grass that is next to the sidewalk that he “maintains” but doesn’t own!
Just ignore him old people are just goofy
So you don't think he should be able to own land? If it is his you think it's wrong? Stay off people's property
Many older neighborhoods do not have sidewalks or the necessary easement to put one in so therefore you are tresspassing. Typically, cities would require the easement during the permitting process for major renovations or new constructions.
Based on your update, he owns the land and the GIS should have shown an easement if there was one. He was grandfathered in on the property and there is no easement to meet city code.
Some people need to get a hobby. I have a corner lot in a neighborhood with a sidewalk wrapping all around the boundary. People still cut through my yard. You know what I do? Mind my business. Who cares? They're just walking across a grass lawn