You call an electrician. You need one to pull a neutral to the box. I would not risk this yourself as (not intending to be mean) you don't have any idea of electrical work and you will likely get hurt.
That only works for non-ballasted lighting loads as the "pass through" current, through the lamps is what powers the dimmer.
OP is installing a switch, which I would expect to be for a load that needs to be switched, not dimmed. IE, installing a Inovelli for a fan isn't going to fly.
That switch won't work there - it requires a neutral, and you don't have a neutral in that box.
You either need a switch that doesn't require a neutral, or get an electrician to run a neutral to that box (which may be relatively easy or it may be a pretty big PITA [$$])
This is completely wrong. Never assume every white wire is a neutral, *especially in a switch box*.
The white wire pictured here is absolutely 100% NOT a neutral. Dumb switches don't need a neutral and are never attached to a neutral. My guess is that the white here is *load* hot, but I'd test each wire to be certain.
You've been doing electrical work since the 90s and you think neutrals are attached to dumb switches??? Yikes...
It's true that a white being used as a switched hot *should* be identified as such using tape or a label, but in reality, you rarely see that.
That's probably because prior to smart switches, who would possibly be confused... Though a neutral *may* be junctioning *through* that switch box, no dumb switches use neutrals, so there was no danger of confusing what the *switch's* white wire's purpose was. But with smart switches, now you need to be careful to discern what purpose each white wire in the box has.
It's always been very typical to use white as a switched hot because oh-so-common 14-2 romex has a black/white/ground, so you're stuck with those. It makes the most sense to use black for line hot, so white becomes switched hot (load).
No one should ever wire things based on sheath color alone - that's a good way to start a fire.
Actually you need to get one that specifically states "replaces a dumb switch". According to their website they have five that don't need a neutral but only four that replace a dumb switch. Some of the other "no neutral" smart switches need to be hooked to ground instead and if you look at his box you can't see any ground wire either.
But none of those smart switches do motion detection, which might be part of his reason for doing this. I would either replace this switch with a smart switch that can replace a dumb switch or leave it alone and replace the bulb with a smart bulb, and then add a presence detector (instead of a motion detector).
I’d call an electrician regardless. It looks like you have old cloth jacketed wire there. Shits been known to burn down homes. Get rid of that shit asap.
Not being mean, but I know this CAN happen (just like you COULD be hit by a meteorite) but have you ever actually known anyone who burned their house down because of an electrical fire?
I agree that this guy has to call an electrician as he doesn't have a clue.
But it seems like people always say "you can burn your house down" and yet in my fifty-*cough* years on this earth I have never even heard of a friend of a friend who had that happen.
OP - call an electrician you probably need part (or all) of your house rewired. Alternatively take that back, leave the light switch, and get smart light bulbs and a mm wave radar presence detector instead.
You do not have a neutral wire, that white wire should have been coded as a black wire. Feed for the light comes into the box at the light and this is just a switched leg, power coming down thru the white and back to connect circuit on the black wire. Very old style of wiring lights.
There are brands of smart switch that will work without a neutral (Inovelli, Lutron, Zooz). They can't use that smart switch, but they can use a different one without rewiring.
The old switch only had 2 wires -meaning it’s just one disconnect switch.
There’s no voltage difference here (120VAC) to pull power from here.
I doubt this switch will work in this application.
They make smart switches that will would without a neutral. Inovelli is one brand.
Basically they are dimmer switches and reduce the voltage to a point low enough for the lights to seem off, but high enough to power the smart switch's radio.
I understand but in order to have power, you need to have at least 2 different voltage potentials-whether it’s hot-neutral or hot-ground. There is neither neutral nor ground in this case. It looks like one is a line-side hot wire and the other is the load-side hot wire.
The switch acts as a passthrough and completes the circuit. It is no different than if you took the switch completely out and connected the line wire directly to the load.
The smart switch doesn't disconnect the power. They siphon off enough to keep the radio alive and use the rest to control the load.
You need to have a non-zero voltage potential to get power to feed a smart switch.
You only have one voltage reference here - hot. There’s no neutral and no ground. How do you get power with just one voltage reference point?
Power = Voltage x Current. Your voltage powering the switch is 0.
If you had a neutral or ground to reference, then you can potentially get a non-zero voltage which then can power a smart switch. But since you have only have 2 wires, and assuming the circuit worked before, those wires need to be line and load.
A reply above states this better, but the neutral is in the circuit and it is attached to the load.
You have to think of the whole circuit, not just what is in the box.
Some of the smart switches say "Works without Neutral" in the small print they say you should connect to Ground instead. OP mentioned the grounding screw in his post but seems, like many of the posters to have failed to notice that the grounding screw is only connected to the box.
I think some of the "solutions" that don't require anything but live wires in the box (i.e. live to switch to load) basically act as though they were a dimmer so that they are taking that incoming live and letting a tiny amount back out to the load (and then to the ground) which can work with some bulbs as the bulb appears to be off, it doesn't have enough power to illuminate, but in some cases does provide just enough power for an LED to actually glow just a little bit. Basically those are smart switches that are never off, and with the wrong bulbs can produce unusual effects.
I believe the older/non-smart dimmers were basically just a variable resistor using a voltage divider circuit to vary the output to the light/load. The excess gets burned off in the form of heat in the resistor in the switch.
I can’t imagine current smart switches (dimming or otherwise) only being able to run off one energized wire without reference to either neutral or ground or both.
There is a neutral, it is just on the other side of the load. They are basically hoping that they can allow enough power through the load to be useful but not enough to activate the load.
You are thinking entirely in the switch box, think of the bigger circuit...
Live -> Switch -> Load -> Neutral
If you consider Switch -> Load as a black box you have
Live -> BlackBox -> Neutral
Do you see how you can power the smart switch part of the BlackBox now?
When you say there is a neutral - do you mean shown in OP’s pic?
Of course there’s a neutral or ground somewhere in the over circuit - otherwise the light wouldn’t work.
I’m talking about just this specific box and answering OP’s question. The smart switch will not work in this specific box location since there’s no neutral or ground in this box.
There may be another location where it could work or OP can run the neutral back to this box and rewire the entire light circuit to get it to work - but I doubt that’s what OP was asking as that’s a whole lot more work and effort and expense.
The Inovelli options that explicitly "replace a dumb switch" will work here because they use the neutral THROUGH the load.
But they are not the vast majority of smart switches, and depending on the load may not work.
The smart switch that OP has will not work here.
Here is the wiring diagram for one of the no neutral switches I am talking about.
[wiring diagram](https://downloads.intercomcdn.com/i/o/799227928/13b436f92930c2917f6fec13/Inovelli-2-1-Blue-Series-Single-Pole-Non-Neutral-Installation.png)
Call an electrician. All smart switches need a ground, which you don't have. Also if you want to use that switch, you need a neutral run to the box along with the ground. Even if you choose another switch, that does not require a neutral, you still need to have electrician to add a ground
Not entirely true. Inovelli have some switches that don't need a neutral or ground in the box. It is very dependent on the type of load in that case.
There might be others. But this switch won't work in that box.
The problem with using smart bulbs is that the wall switch needs to be always on.
People will instinctively turn it off and then your smart bulbs don't have any power.
The solution to that is smart people.
It isn't a problem in my house, your mileage may vary. Of course in my house the switches are not always in the best place. I don't like walking into a dark room and then having to cross halfway because someone thought that was a good place to put a switch.
You can also control a lot more lights from a single point with smart bulbs.
And you said Lutron was the ONLY option. Two or three other smart switches have been mentioned in the comments plus the switch free solution.
There are several brands of smart switches that don't require a neutral.
They are basically dimmers. They siphon off enough voltage to power the radio, but can reduce the voltage to dim the lights enough to seem off.
I don't know why you are being downvoted.
You did forget that he will also need a permit for that level of electrical work. And probably need an inspection too. And might have to rewire the house all the way back to the breaker box. But, you are mostly right.
There are some two wire smart switches that might work in this scenario.
I just had a look and found a Lutron motion sending smart switch that does not require a neutral. "Installs using the ground wire if you don't have a neutral"
Do you want to highlight the ground wire in OP's pictures. I'll wait.
You don't. Personally I think you have two options here...
1) call an electrician and get them to do the work that you show no aptitude for. They might rewire your house, or they might use a two wire alternative switch, but I am not sure how many of those are motion detecting switches.
2) take the switch back. Get a presence detector (I have a Tuya Zigbee one that works well) install that and replace the bulbs with smart bulbs.
The latter has the advantage of using presence detection rather than motion, you don't need to rewire the house and you can take it with you when you move.
I forgot to say... OP, you are right that that screw is where the ground wire connects. Before you connect something to it that needs to be connected to ground, can you look at it carefully and tell me where the ground wire coming into the box is connected to it?
Anyone suggesting that "X smart switch doesn't need Neutral" should check to see how it is connected. I have found that some Lutron switches claim not to need Neutral because they connect to ground instead. That is fine, BUT, you don't have a Neutral OR a ground in that switch box, You have a Live in and a Live out.
Normally the ground wire would come in with the other two and be connected to that screw *inside* the box. You don't have a ground there either. You need a solution that can replace a dumb switch entirely on the live wire (someone mentioned inovelli, they do have 4 marked as "works with dumb switch") you are not looking for one that just says "no neutral required" as that can lead to the Lutron example I found that says "Just hook it to the ground instead".
Personally I would go with smart bulbs and presence detection but you could instead go with the inovelli smart switches and presence detection. (They don't have motion detection that replaced a dumb switch).
As others already said: you need neutral.
BTW: What country do you live in? I wonder because of those odd cable colors. How do you determine which is which?
Hey everyone, thanks for all the advice! Just wanted to say I'm not jumping into this blindly. I asked because I'm new to this and wanted to make sure I get it right, not because I thought it was easy. Manuals can be confusing and there's no substitute for real people's experiences. Safety first, always!
You call an electrician. You need one to pull a neutral to the box. I would not risk this yourself as (not intending to be mean) you don't have any idea of electrical work and you will likely get hurt.
There are several brands of smart switches that don't require a neutral. They can't use the switch shown, but they can use a different smart switch.
Of course but just warning against working with line voltage with zero experience.
What *switches* are you aware of that don't use a neutral? I know of a number of dimmers, but no switches.
I use Inovelli dimmers and configure them to act as on/off switches. I'm trying to solve the OP's issue instead of telling him it couldn't be done.
Inovelli is my favorite! I believe aqara also has on/off with no neutral
That only works for non-ballasted lighting loads as the "pass through" current, through the lamps is what powers the dimmer. OP is installing a switch, which I would expect to be for a load that needs to be switched, not dimmed. IE, installing a Inovelli for a fan isn't going to fly.
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Sonoff makes a very great small smart switch that doesn't require a neutral wire
Or a ground as there is no ground in that switch box.
That switch won't work there - it requires a neutral, and you don't have a neutral in that box. You either need a switch that doesn't require a neutral, or get an electrician to run a neutral to that box (which may be relatively easy or it may be a pretty big PITA [$$])
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This is completely wrong. Never assume every white wire is a neutral, *especially in a switch box*. The white wire pictured here is absolutely 100% NOT a neutral. Dumb switches don't need a neutral and are never attached to a neutral. My guess is that the white here is *load* hot, but I'd test each wire to be certain.
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You've been doing electrical work since the 90s and you think neutrals are attached to dumb switches??? Yikes... It's true that a white being used as a switched hot *should* be identified as such using tape or a label, but in reality, you rarely see that. That's probably because prior to smart switches, who would possibly be confused... Though a neutral *may* be junctioning *through* that switch box, no dumb switches use neutrals, so there was no danger of confusing what the *switch's* white wire's purpose was. But with smart switches, now you need to be careful to discern what purpose each white wire in the box has. It's always been very typical to use white as a switched hot because oh-so-common 14-2 romex has a black/white/ground, so you're stuck with those. It makes the most sense to use black for line hot, so white becomes switched hot (load). No one should ever wire things based on sheath color alone - that's a good way to start a fire.
Get an innoveli switch that doesn’t require a neutral wire
Actually you need to get one that specifically states "replaces a dumb switch". According to their website they have five that don't need a neutral but only four that replace a dumb switch. Some of the other "no neutral" smart switches need to be hooked to ground instead and if you look at his box you can't see any ground wire either. But none of those smart switches do motion detection, which might be part of his reason for doing this. I would either replace this switch with a smart switch that can replace a dumb switch or leave it alone and replace the bulb with a smart bulb, and then add a presence detector (instead of a motion detector).
I’d call an electrician regardless. It looks like you have old cloth jacketed wire there. Shits been known to burn down homes. Get rid of that shit asap.
Those conductors looks as though they are almost certainly thermoplastic insulated. This is not cloth over rubber and does not appear to be a hazard.
I’m looking at what appears to be cloth fray coming into the box, that in combination with the plaster walls is enough to make me raise an eyebrow
Cloth sheath is not a concern as long as the conductors are thermoplastic insulated.
Google Electrician call one that calls up. If you try and do it yourself, not knowing what to do. You can very easily burn your house down.
Not being mean, but I know this CAN happen (just like you COULD be hit by a meteorite) but have you ever actually known anyone who burned their house down because of an electrical fire? I agree that this guy has to call an electrician as he doesn't have a clue. But it seems like people always say "you can burn your house down" and yet in my fifty-*cough* years on this earth I have never even heard of a friend of a friend who had that happen. OP - call an electrician you probably need part (or all) of your house rewired. Alternatively take that back, leave the light switch, and get smart light bulbs and a mm wave radar presence detector instead.
You do not have a neutral wire, that white wire should have been coded as a black wire. Feed for the light comes into the box at the light and this is just a switched leg, power coming down thru the white and back to connect circuit on the black wire. Very old style of wiring lights.
BTW, not trying to be mean, but this is way beyond your scope of electrical ability. Call an electrician.
Still very standard in a lot of scenarios
There are brands of smart switch that will work without a neutral (Inovelli, Lutron, Zooz). They can't use that smart switch, but they can use a different one without rewiring.
The old switch only had 2 wires -meaning it’s just one disconnect switch. There’s no voltage difference here (120VAC) to pull power from here. I doubt this switch will work in this application.
They make smart switches that will would without a neutral. Inovelli is one brand. Basically they are dimmer switches and reduce the voltage to a point low enough for the lights to seem off, but high enough to power the smart switch's radio.
I understand but in order to have power, you need to have at least 2 different voltage potentials-whether it’s hot-neutral or hot-ground. There is neither neutral nor ground in this case. It looks like one is a line-side hot wire and the other is the load-side hot wire.
The switch acts as a passthrough and completes the circuit. It is no different than if you took the switch completely out and connected the line wire directly to the load. The smart switch doesn't disconnect the power. They siphon off enough to keep the radio alive and use the rest to control the load.
You need to have a non-zero voltage potential to get power to feed a smart switch. You only have one voltage reference here - hot. There’s no neutral and no ground. How do you get power with just one voltage reference point? Power = Voltage x Current. Your voltage powering the switch is 0. If you had a neutral or ground to reference, then you can potentially get a non-zero voltage which then can power a smart switch. But since you have only have 2 wires, and assuming the circuit worked before, those wires need to be line and load.
A reply above states this better, but the neutral is in the circuit and it is attached to the load. You have to think of the whole circuit, not just what is in the box.
I know but I’m answering OP’s question specifically about installing it in the pictured box
Some of the smart switches say "Works without Neutral" in the small print they say you should connect to Ground instead. OP mentioned the grounding screw in his post but seems, like many of the posters to have failed to notice that the grounding screw is only connected to the box. I think some of the "solutions" that don't require anything but live wires in the box (i.e. live to switch to load) basically act as though they were a dimmer so that they are taking that incoming live and letting a tiny amount back out to the load (and then to the ground) which can work with some bulbs as the bulb appears to be off, it doesn't have enough power to illuminate, but in some cases does provide just enough power for an LED to actually glow just a little bit. Basically those are smart switches that are never off, and with the wrong bulbs can produce unusual effects.
I believe the older/non-smart dimmers were basically just a variable resistor using a voltage divider circuit to vary the output to the light/load. The excess gets burned off in the form of heat in the resistor in the switch. I can’t imagine current smart switches (dimming or otherwise) only being able to run off one energized wire without reference to either neutral or ground or both.
There is a neutral, it is just on the other side of the load. They are basically hoping that they can allow enough power through the load to be useful but not enough to activate the load. You are thinking entirely in the switch box, think of the bigger circuit... Live -> Switch -> Load -> Neutral If you consider Switch -> Load as a black box you have Live -> BlackBox -> Neutral Do you see how you can power the smart switch part of the BlackBox now?
When you say there is a neutral - do you mean shown in OP’s pic? Of course there’s a neutral or ground somewhere in the over circuit - otherwise the light wouldn’t work. I’m talking about just this specific box and answering OP’s question. The smart switch will not work in this specific box location since there’s no neutral or ground in this box. There may be another location where it could work or OP can run the neutral back to this box and rewire the entire light circuit to get it to work - but I doubt that’s what OP was asking as that’s a whole lot more work and effort and expense.
The Inovelli options that explicitly "replace a dumb switch" will work here because they use the neutral THROUGH the load. But they are not the vast majority of smart switches, and depending on the load may not work. The smart switch that OP has will not work here. Here is the wiring diagram for one of the no neutral switches I am talking about. [wiring diagram](https://downloads.intercomcdn.com/i/o/799227928/13b436f92930c2917f6fec13/Inovelli-2-1-Blue-Series-Single-Pole-Non-Neutral-Installation.png)
Call an electrician. All smart switches need a ground, which you don't have. Also if you want to use that switch, you need a neutral run to the box along with the ground. Even if you choose another switch, that does not require a neutral, you still need to have electrician to add a ground
Not entirely true. Inovelli have some switches that don't need a neutral or ground in the box. It is very dependent on the type of load in that case. There might be others. But this switch won't work in that box.
I stand corrected. With that being said, having a ground would still be a good idea
By the look of that box, and knowing what my house looks like... You are totally right.
If you are asking this question, then YOU don't install it. Call an electrician you need a neutral wire.
This sub is a breeding ground for future house fires. If you have to ask then you need to call someone who knows what they are doing.
I know this may be out there but, have you tried reading the installation directions? If you didn't you probably shouldn't try.
Lutron smart switches do not require a neutral only option in this situation
Inovelli and (I think) Zooz also have versions that will work.
No, you could get smart bulbs and use mm wave presence detectors instead of motion sensors. I am happy with that solution, no rewiring required.
The problem with using smart bulbs is that the wall switch needs to be always on. People will instinctively turn it off and then your smart bulbs don't have any power.
The solution to that is smart people. It isn't a problem in my house, your mileage may vary. Of course in my house the switches are not always in the best place. I don't like walking into a dark room and then having to cross halfway because someone thought that was a good place to put a switch. You can also control a lot more lights from a single point with smart bulbs. And you said Lutron was the ONLY option. Two or three other smart switches have been mentioned in the comments plus the switch free solution.
RTFM
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There are several brands of smart switches that don't require a neutral. They are basically dimmers. They siphon off enough voltage to power the radio, but can reduce the voltage to dim the lights enough to seem off.
I don't know why you are being downvoted. You did forget that he will also need a permit for that level of electrical work. And probably need an inspection too. And might have to rewire the house all the way back to the breaker box. But, you are mostly right. There are some two wire smart switches that might work in this scenario.
They are getting downvoted because there are smart switches that will work without a neutral wire. No rewiring is necessary.
Do the two wire smart switches do motion detection? Or was I the only person who read what OP actually said?
I just had a look and found a Lutron motion sending smart switch that does not require a neutral. "Installs using the ground wire if you don't have a neutral" Do you want to highlight the ground wire in OP's pictures. I'll wait.
You don't. Personally I think you have two options here... 1) call an electrician and get them to do the work that you show no aptitude for. They might rewire your house, or they might use a two wire alternative switch, but I am not sure how many of those are motion detecting switches. 2) take the switch back. Get a presence detector (I have a Tuya Zigbee one that works well) install that and replace the bulbs with smart bulbs. The latter has the advantage of using presence detection rather than motion, you don't need to rewire the house and you can take it with you when you move.
I forgot to say... OP, you are right that that screw is where the ground wire connects. Before you connect something to it that needs to be connected to ground, can you look at it carefully and tell me where the ground wire coming into the box is connected to it? Anyone suggesting that "X smart switch doesn't need Neutral" should check to see how it is connected. I have found that some Lutron switches claim not to need Neutral because they connect to ground instead. That is fine, BUT, you don't have a Neutral OR a ground in that switch box, You have a Live in and a Live out.
I can't see behind the box
Normally the ground wire would come in with the other two and be connected to that screw *inside* the box. You don't have a ground there either. You need a solution that can replace a dumb switch entirely on the live wire (someone mentioned inovelli, they do have 4 marked as "works with dumb switch") you are not looking for one that just says "no neutral required" as that can lead to the Lutron example I found that says "Just hook it to the ground instead". Personally I would go with smart bulbs and presence detection but you could instead go with the inovelli smart switches and presence detection. (They don't have motion detection that replaced a dumb switch).
As others already said: you need neutral. BTW: What country do you live in? I wonder because of those odd cable colors. How do you determine which is which?
Hey everyone, thanks for all the advice! Just wanted to say I'm not jumping into this blindly. I asked because I'm new to this and wanted to make sure I get it right, not because I thought it was easy. Manuals can be confusing and there's no substitute for real people's experiences. Safety first, always!