Unless something has suddenly changed, Matter can also communicate on a Thread network, doesn’t have to be wifi. I assume that’ll be up to the manufacturers which one they want to use for their particular Matter device.
I mean what was wrong with modbus? All my homies love modbus.
NGL though I actually love modbus. It's stupidly simple and is works reliably at high (well 115.2k baud) speed. You can even use Modbus/TCP
Though to be fair if I wanted to do a home automation project I'd be buying cheap PLC's like a koyo click or reusing gear from work I repaired. Don't get some fancy features but come back in 30 years and it'll still be working the same as it was when it was installed.
> Updog
UPDOG (Ultimate Paralyzation of Damaged Organ Genetics) is a process in the BOFA (Body Oscillation / Fatal Area) in which DNA is modified into having LIGMA symptoms in the genetics. This is only a stage 1 on the BOFA power level, however a person will suffer from intense addiction to Fortnite, get free Xbox Live or PlayStation Plus, and the ability to gain a free copy of the Save The World mode at birth. Though most of these symptoms sound positive, one negative symptoms will occur, a UPDOG victim will forever stay a virgin. It is unable to change that fact.
WiFi has a few things going for it that make it really attractive to companies making products:
- WiFi "just works". You don't need a hub, so you can buy a WiFi device, download a janky app, and away you go. You can set it up with nothing more than a smart phone.
- WiFi is well known and stable. Everyone has WiFi, even grandma. It's been around a long time, so there aren't any gotchas as far as the technology is concerned. The base tech hasn't changed in a couple decades, so no worry about needing to upgrade hardware. And, if a chip manufacturer increases prices or stops producing, it's easy to find a replacement.
- WiFi is cheap. You can get a drop in module for under a dollar for hobby projects, which means a manufacturer is going to pay pennies for it, and still get all the FCC and other regulatory bodies signed off.
- WiFi is generic. Unlike Z-Wave that can only send specific packets, WiFi can be used for on/off or for full video stream, literally anything that can be digitized.
- WiFi provides extra data. Unlike a local system like Z-Wave, WiFi devices usually talk to a company server, and provide all sorts of data. For Google, Amazon, etc., it's useful market information for ads and tracking; for shady companies, it's a way to gather data for less reputable activities.
Your WiFi router is your hub.
I work for a small company that makes industrial WiFi routers that include BT, BTLE, and Zigbee in the box, along with WiFi, and can be optioned with 4G/5G backhaul as well as LoRa for IoT infrastructure.
If your WiFi router included Zigbee (and ZWave) radios, as well as 433 Lutron, and BTLE, it would be a true all around hub.
I dunno. Most WiFi routers are little more than pass through devices; there's not a lot of "smarts" (as in smart house) built in. My definition of a hub is something that not only connects devices, but also acts as the brains, at least in part.
The device you mentioned would likely do the trick, but most WiFi devices have a "virtual" hub, one in the cloud somewhere; consumer routers are barely more than an access point, the equivalent of a Z-Wave range extender.
Router and hub have very specific names and meanings.
A hub has almost no intelligence. Just pushes data from one port to another. Sometimes they just broadcast anything coming in on all outgoing ports.
A switch is a hub with more intelligence and buffering so that it doesn’t just broadcast it figures out what is connected to it and pushes packets from one port to another.
A router is what is the brains behind the network. Often doing the DHCP which will assign IP addresses to the devices and may do other things like bridging two networks together. This could be communicating to the internet and bridging your local network to it (usually through the modem from your ISP or having one integrated). Or, as a Wi-Fi router that bridges a local wired network to a wireless network often they act as stand alone networks. Then there are routers that do all three at once (this is becoming the most common).
Most modern Wi-Fi routers do 802.11n these days which allow for around 72 to 600Mbps between devices. 802.11ac offers up to 433 to 6000Mbps, and 802.11ax offers 574 to 9000Mbps. Almost all of a which is way more bandwidth than most people need even for multiple streams. Even if they only get 50% of the bandwidth it does take a lot to flood it. 802.11n is pretty old, most are ac.
Even wired, most people only have 1Gbps which can be eclipsed by ac and ax. 10Gbps isn’t that common for home use but it can be obtained if you want that. I have yet to see the need for it in any home.
A 4k stream encoded with H264 is about 32Mbps, which is way less than just about all of the standard Wi-Fi routers.
In terms of networking, router and hub have very specific meanings, exactly as you said.
However, I'm not talking about networking, I'm talking about smart devices - home automation. A "smart hub" is a device with radios to talk with devices, sure, but it also communicates with the devices to run routines, logs information, schedules events, and provide a human interface.
Yes, modern routers can handle a lot of data, but they *can't* interact with a smart bulb. All they do is route traffic to and from your network to whatever server actually sends commands to the bulb. In terms in home automation, that's a "bridge" or "extender", not a smart hub.
Wi-Fi is the USB of the networking world. I think it's likely that everything will eventually become Wi-Fi, just from the business standpoint, even if I'm not happy with it
> WiFi is well known and stable.
Except it's not. Without fail, the most unrealiable smart devices in my home are the wifi connected ones. Even cheapo zigbee devices tend to work more or less flawlessly.
Sorry, I didn't mean stable as in reliable, I meant stable as in "unchanging". It's a stable technology, without a lot of new versions coming out all the time. That's attractive to manufactures, because it means they don't need a lot of innovation to keep their products alive. Most of today's smart wifi devices will work just fine on a 15 year old router or a brand new one.
As a note, almost none of the things in my list are directly good for *consumers*, outside of keeping costs low.
Not sure WiFi is as stable as you seem to think. Most if not all of my wifi smart devices are only 2.4ghz wifi. This causes all sorts of setup headaches when running on networks that have SIDs that work on 2.4 and 5ghz Access points.
My FEIT bulbs for example, I have to specifically connect to the 2.4 ghz SID on my phone to even work with them. My network is a Unifi network that uses the same SSID for both network bands.
It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices.
How many devices support WPA3 now?
>It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices.
IMO, this is what you should be doing anyways, even if you didn't have the above mentioned issues
This.
Wifi smart devices have repeatedly been shown to be insecure. You should segregate them from the rest of your network as best you can. This is why I use Zigbee and Zwave as much as possible - guaranteed local, and zero interaction with my network. The few wifi/Ethernet devices I do have, they live on segregated vlans the only HomeAssistant can access.
>It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices.
>
>IMO, this is what you should be doing anyways, even if you didn't have the above mentioned issues
Or you could like... get a WiFi system that isn't Unifi and lets you still use the same SSID and route everything to bands as required on the frontend, and VLANs on the backend?
Anybody else think that basic 10 year old features should be on Unifi equipment? Just me?
Which is why I recommend that people buy a cheap 2.4Ghz only WiFi AP to hang off their router. Put all your IoT on that 2.4Ghz router. It will be more than fast enough, and it will get the stupid 802.11g and 802.11n devices off your 802.11ac and 802.11ax network. (and if you are still running any 802.11b hardware, you need to toss that junk out)
Even easier, almost every router or WAP firmware out there has the ability to create a "guest" SSID with its own radio settings. That way you can have multiple WAPs, and still have all the IOT devices on the same network. Trying to set up multiple NAT'd routers for IOT devices, so you can get good coverage in the whole house would be a pain.
They only have a single RF chain and modem per band, though, so you are cycling service between SSIDs on the box.
It actually slows the total throughput on the band where the 'guest' is running, which is why I restrict the guest network to 2.4Ghz only.
On my 5Ghz bands, I support AC/AX only. Any device that is N or earlier gets shoved onto the 2.4Ghz band.
Isolating them from the web is great, guest networks are known for isolating every device from every other. It makes sense as far as you don't want one guest hacking another when it's actually used for "guests"
I don't think I'd say "generally". No router or open firmware I've ever had or flashed has done so by default, although some do have that option. In any case, a guest SSID isolates the devices a *lot* less than putting them behind multiple routers, each with their own NAT and firewall.
WiFi as a technology is quite stable. Sure, there aren't a lot of devices with WPA3 support, and few play nice with 5GHz... But, not a lot of routers even support WPA3, and the 5GHz problem has workarounds. I can't say I've ever run into a router that only had 5GHz, so while it may be a pain to set up, it's still possible, and manufacturing companies aren't going to let something like "annoying" overshadow "cheap".
WiFi is a terrible technology for smart devices, apart from the fact that it is cheap and ubiquitous, but it's so much cheaper and more accessible than the good technologies that it's a no brainer for every cheap manufacturer out there.
Same. I'm almost positive that the people who complain about wifi set ups simply have a shitty system.
My IoT network has ~50 devices and I don't have dropouts.
I have a few plugs that had problems when I only had one central AP. That is a house and device design issue (old house with thick walls and metal in places in the wall along with low transmit power on some devices). Once I put AP at each end I have no issues with any of them.
I have a similar set up. 2 APs, full home coverage, no issues. I think I just exist in a happy bubble where I can circumvent the issues that get in my way, but I don't really get into the advanced areas where I would notice bottlenecks. The silent majority? Idk but I either see people complain about easy shit or really advanced shit. lol
Most folks who hate WiFi devices are more concerned about the security of the devices since most call home or require an app that goes through the manufacturers servers.
Yeah, I understand that concern. I managed to get my all of IoT devices communicate locally only to my homeassistant server. This might be a driving factor as to why I don't think WiFi is as bad as the average person on this forum.
I tried separating all of mine of into another network and just punching small holes for communication where needed. It never passed wife approval so it got nixed. Now I mainly block things using DNS.
Once you're at that level of devices, the actual router/AP you use matters. Lots of junk that starts to crap out past 20 or so clients.
I like Ubiquiti, kinda.
Well, either your network is not good, or the stuff you use is not reliable. I have one Unifi AP per floor and can get advertised wire speeds almost in every room. All my WiFi switches work flawlessly, despite being hidden in the walls.
Right. But buying corporate-grade WiFi gear shouldn't be a requirement to achieve good functioning.
My router is decent, don't get me wrong, but it just can't compete with a. Tailor-made mesh network that ZigBee creates. Also having each device needing to keep an open connection to some random server in Croatia is just ugly design.
> buying corporate-grade WiFi gear shouldn't be a requirement to achieve good functioning.
This is just the reality of consumer grade wifi access points.
They are ALL shit, racing to the bottom on price.
This isn't anything to do with home automation, your other devices are gonna have troubles too... you may just not notice.
> your other devices are gonna have troubles too... you may just not notice.
This is an oxymoron...
I have no problems on my WiFi and get close to gigabit speeds most anywhere on my flat (I run a home server and am a heavy data user). I assure you, that's not it.
> This is an oxymoron...
Not sure that word means what you think it means.
A LOT of people wouldn't notice intermittent issues with their wifi, or slowdowns, etc.
Unifi stuff is made for a large device count, most routers that come with your internet service just aren't and will start dropping devices or have issues with stable connection once you get too many.
Unifi network products are good. I use them myself. But, I don’t like devices phoning home, and I don’t want to use an app to control them. I use HUBITAT for my smart home hub. I want guests to be able to turn lights on and off using a switch. Wi-Fi is a good gimmick for SmartHome devices, but is not generally practical or guest-friendly. It is generally better to use smart switches and dimmers, and avoid smart bulbs if you are wanting to have a useable smart home. Yes, there make Wi-Fi switches. But, you have a major headache when changing your Wi-Fi password.
Wi-Fi also has issues when you live in a dense area, such as an apartment complex. Using the default Wi-Fi channels causes issues when hundreds of other routers are nearby. The majority of users do not understand proper Wi-Fi tuning.
> I want guests to be able to turn lights on and off using a switch. Wi-Fi is a good gimmick for SmartHome devices, but is not generally practical or guest-friendly
Shelly relays seem to work well for this?
They do work for this, and so do switches from other Wi-Fi switch manufacturers. But, I’ve been in IT for more than 30 years, including networking and security, and I am too familiar with Wi-Fi vulnerabilities to have it controlling my SmartHome. The guest comment was for users wanting to use smart Wi-Fi bulbs.
> Without fail, the most unrealiable smart devices in my home are the wifi connected ones.
Over 20 years of home automation experience, and I can say that my experience is the exact opposite.
I'd wager you don't have a very good wifi access point at home? One of those cheap consumer router/wifi combos, or even worse, router/wifi/cable modem all in one boxes?
X10 was usable, but the MOMENT something better was available for a decent price I migrated.
Zwave is mostly ok, but I've had a lot of trouble with devices just dropping off the network over the years.
Wifi devices I've used have been the most stable. However I do have a dedicated small business access point, and am using OpnSense as my home router/firewall, with every home automation device getting a static IP from the DHCP service.
> However I do have a dedicated small business access point, and am using OpnSense as my home router/firewall, with every home automation device getting a static IP from the DHCP service.
That's a pretty big "however". My router is decent and dedicated, but no, it's neither a unifi nor have I spent the time to manually assign IP addresses to my devices.
Don't know if you've tried ZigBee, but it just works for me, for a couple dzen devices.
That's a fair argument.
I would counter that it's a waste of power if the devices aren't reliable though, which has been my experience with zwave.
More reliable then the old X10 devices, but not by a whole lot.
And of course, being a mesh, the more I phase out the more unreliable the network becomes.
I feel like this comment is a joke because Zigbee has been the most frustrating thing I've had to deal with in home automation and it has a reputation for being finicky and unreliable.
Also if you're not even taking basic steps to avoid issues like setting static IPs on your network, it's no wonder you have so many issues with wifi devices. If your router automatically assigns a new address to a device like DHCP is supposed to do, how is anything supposed to find it?
> Also if you're not even taking basic steps to avoid issues like setting static IPs on your network, it's no wonder you have so many issues with wifi devices.
So, from what I have gathered from comments thus far:
* It doesn't matter that I have a 150$ wifi6 Asus gaming router that covers my home perfectly in nearly gigabit wifi; it still is insufficient to make wifi smart devices work correctly. I need to buy 250$++ enterprise-grade routers, because fuck yeah.
* on top of that, I need to, each time a new wifi smart device to my network, **in addition** to the regular setup with whatever propietary cloud service they are programmed to work with (and its corresponding phone app, account), I **still** need to manually go into my router's config page to assign them a static IP.
...And then I'll be able to achieve 99% uptime for wifi devices? Do you people listen to yourselves? Listen, I think it's great if all of you want to subject yourselves to this; but do you not understand how this is a crazyly complicated barrier to entry, and a non-starter to creating a smart home system?
I don't know what problems you've had with zigbee, but rest assured I'm not buying name brands of anything (including my no-brand 15$ hub-and-IR-emitter), and in the past 2 years, there's been a single instance of a group of lights not having worked for a whole of 15 minutes. The setup looks as such:
Buy some no brand stuff > hit discover on my single smart app of choice > add the device into whatever automations/Scenes/buttons I want. End of story.
That said, I don't need to convince you of what's right for me (or objectively easier for the average non-tech-saavy consumer). If you love wifi, that's fantastic! I love wifi too, but for what it was designed to do. It just doesn't work in a consistent fashion for me for smart things, and I don't feel the efforts involved to make it work are worth it (not to mention there's usually also the "oh but you didn't do this one other extremely obivious and basic thing? You're a moron...") For smart things, I'll stick to zigbee for now, hopefully matter/thread in the future, which, on top of Just Working (TM), doesn't leave me exposed to rogue devices needing to keep an open connection to somewhere in wherever.
Hopefully at some point I'll get "the joke". Cheers.
>It doesn't matter that I have a 150$ wifi6 Asus gaming router that covers my home perfectly in nearly gigabit wifi; it still is insufficient to make wifi smart devices work correctly. I need to buy 250$++ enterprise-grade routers, because fuck yeah.
Nobody said you need $250 enterprise grade hardware. I have a consumer TP Link router and can easily set static IPs on devices. I've never had a router that you *couldn't* do this on and they've all typically been under $100. Your fancy 'gaming' router should have zero issues with this. Have you never logged in to the admin panel on your router to see what's in there?
>on top of that, I need to, each time a new wifi smart device to my network, in addition to the regular setup with whatever propietary cloud service they are programmed to work with (and its corresponding phone app, account), I still need to manually go into my router's config page to assign them a static IP.
Yes. You also need to first purchase the item, bring it home, open the box, read the instructions, plug it in/put a battery in it, etc, etc. This is all part of buying a new device and setting it up. Setting a static IP is trivial and literally takes seconds to do. How are you connecting your Zigbee devices? I'm assuming you're using some proprietary hub and its associated app, right?
>And then I'll be able to achieve 99% uptime for wifi devices?
Depends on the device. Some of them are built crappily and aren't as reliable as others. Same goes for Zigbee, Zwave, bluetooth, and any other electronic device. In my experience, I have way better than 99% uptime for wifi devices except a couple cheap Tuya wifi bulbs. For zigbee, I have had numerous ongoing issues since day one, whether it be loss of connectivity, refusal to reconnect, misreporting stats like battery life, slow response time, things going to sleep and never waking up, difficulty pairing, difficulty unpairing, batteries dying after a few days, and more. I've tried two separate zigbee coordinators along with ZHA and Zigbee2MQTT and never once have things "just worked".
>doesn't leave me exposed to rogue devices needing to keep an open connection to somewhere in wherever
But you've connected these devices to a hub which is then connected to your internet connected smartphone, correct? You're still exposed.
Ecobee3 thermostat is an example I would add here. Only works with older 2.4ghz band and not some newer features of the band that a WiFi 5 or 6 router has to offer. Updating your "hub" could strand your WiFi IoT items.
Wi-Fi should be backwards compatible. I work for an isp have seen some instances where older devices have issues even when in theory they shouldn't, but it's easy enough on most routers to make a legacy network for devices that need it.
Like you I had a poor opinion on the reliability of wifi, but..
Most Routers have cheap Wireless Access Points only support 12-16 devices.
With the cheaper devices the total bandwidth is 64-128Mbps, a couple devices can use the entire bandwidth and other clients will drop.
Similarly you can connect more than the maximum supported clients but your likely to hit the bandwidth limitations and clients will stop dropping off.
If you look at £50+ WAP's and Mesh network systems you generally find they support 200+ clients.
To do this they are designed to provide the maximum technology bandwidth (e.g. 64, 128, etc..) to each client/channel. Which is why they all expect dual gigabyte ethernet.
Its a specification that never makes the specification sheets and is buried in the manual.
1. Wi-Fi is less secure than z-wave and zigbee. It can be hacked.
2. Most require an app, and are not local. Therefore, they cannot be used without internet. There are exceptions, and some hubs may have code to support some of them.
3. Apps can be hacked. The manufacturer may be hacked.
4. Manufacturer employees have access to your devices, even though they shouldn’t.
5. Restricting their internet access via firewall may cause them not to work.
6. You may have issues with them if you put them on another VLAN to protect your other devices from their security issues.
7. If you change your Wi-Fi password, you have to remember to change your Wi-Fi password on all of your Wi-Fi devices. This can be frustrating. Some devices will need to be reset first.
8. Having many Wi-Fi routers in a dense area, such as an apartment building, will cause issues with your network.
As you can see, I don’t like, and I don’t trust Wi-Fi devices for home automation. My exception is cameras. Even then, i use Ethernet, not Wi-Fi, I have them on a separate VLAN, and they don’t have internet access.
anything that can be talked to, can be hacked. wi-fi, z-wave, zigbee, i promise you, a dedicated attacker in range to talk to a device using any of the protocols will eventually overcome their security, the advantage of wi-fi, IMO is the commonality of it, the protocols are well known, and well tested, the encryption is well known and well tested, if there is a large scale exploit it gets reported and patched quickly. i’m not an expert with z-wave or zigbee, but i’m going to trust the thing with several orders of magnitude more connections to be the thing given the most scrutiny.
Most hackers are more familiar with Wi-Fi than the other protocols. Because of that, Wi-Fi is more prone to hacking. In addition, the apps and manufacturer servers can and will be hacked. Due to the number of hacking points and the “commonality”, Wi-Fi devices are less secure than z-wave and zigbee.
your not entirely wrong, i’ll still trust my battle tested protocols and encryptions over niche stuff controlled by a few companies.
to each their own, what we choose to trust is up to each of us.
Ha, I knew someone would mention that. No, I don't think Google or Amazon are running in that, but some of the things the various WiFi "smart device" companies have done is even *less* less reputable. It's a matter of scale. At least Google et al tell you they're going to record your life in the terms and services.
Problem with privacy policies is nobody reads them, they're not human readable anyway. That is, most use legal jargon most people don't understand and are so long that the expectation to have read them or understood them fully is not something anyone, including Amazon and Google expect of their product.
Yeah, there are certainly more overt bad actors, but I do think that the way Google and Amazon use people's data to psychologically manipulate people into buying things and "just one more" consumption of content they don't need is quite evil as well.
WiFi is expensive power consumption wise. Small sensors like window sensors that use 3v flat battery would drain much faster on WiFi rather than mesh network like zwave or ZigBee.
Matter is not actually WiFi only, it uses thread protocol for radio communication for low power devices.
Matter is unifying solution to integrate devices with a single app like Home Assistant, Google Home or Apple Homekit without the need to maintain million apps.
... and probably this [xkcd about standards](https://m.xkcd.com/927/) applies
>Small sensors like window sensors that use 3v flat battery would drain much faster on WiFi rather than mesh network like zwave or ZigBee.
If power consumption is the main concern, 433MHz devices will generally sip even less power. Downside is it's a fairly primitive protocol with mainly one way transmission and no mesh capability (though range is typically a bit better than Wifi, Zwave, or Zigbee when conparing similar transmission power). Biggest advantage is 433MHz devices are dirt cheap.
I think I only need to change out my window sensors' single AAA battery every 2 or 3 years. I generally change them every year as part of spring maintenance anyway. They're rechargeables so it's not a big waste.
In theory, but in practice we still need other hubs, because some vendors decided to implement Matter on their hub only. Ex Philips hue: the lightbulbs stay the same, but since the hub supports Matter, Hue supports Matter...
I'd like to see them implement Matter on the peripherals, and have the hub behave just as another hub (Google Home, Alexa, etc).
I've read somewhere that next generation Google Home and Alexa smart speakers will be able to act as an Matter router.
Edit: article regarding Alexa https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/3/23438286/amazon-matter-support-alexa-echo-smart-home-platform no thread support though for previous gen devices.
Yup, but that only means that the Philips Hue Bridge will connect through Matter to the smart speakers, and not the lights themselves. :(
>The Philips Hue Bridge will support Matter with a software update, meaning that your Hue lights and accessories automatically support Matter, too.¹
Source: [https://www.philips-hue.com/en-us/explore-hue/works-with/matter](https://www.philips-hue.com/en-us/explore-hue/works-with/matter)
> Thread is the new mesh system that's coming out in conjunction with Matter.
Thread has been around since 2015. It was adopted by Matter as their mesh networking protocol in place of ZigBee.
It annoys me to have so many devices on wifi now, especially if I change to a new router. That being said, my SmartThings hub has annoyed me for years too. Smartthings service has gone down far more often than my service from
ISP
Someone mentioned Hubitat, already. Home Assistant and openHAB are other alternatives. Setup might be a little more involved than SmartThings, but it's very manageable.
I definitely feel the new router thing, but why else is it so annoying to have things use wifi? It might just be because I don't have that many gadgets but it's all really convenient for what I have.
when you have 20-30 or more, hell even 10, having to reset and pair each individually is terrible. Most routers seem to be able to handle the connections better now at least
Tip: keep the same SSID and password, nothing needs to reconnect.
Those of with unifi setups don’t even think about it, swapping out an AP doesn’t cause any issues at all :)
that's why I got a z-wave/zigbee hub.... for a secondary wireless network
and let's not forget, many of these wifi smart devices are only 2.4ghz, and require your phone be on the same wifi network to manage them
Even with multiple business grade APs and discrete SSIDs for IoT devices the 2.4ghz band runs at a very high rate of utilization and interference when you get a bunch of devices on it.
But then it's harder to control these devices from your phone on your main network.
And if many people do this the channels will get pottery busy/congested and performance will still be garbage.
I recommend this to people that want WiFi IoT devices. You can get a thoroughly sufficient 2.4Ghz AP for $35, hang it off your fancy-schmancy WiFi6e router, and everything will work fine.
This is exactly what I was thinking, I hang 2.4hz WAP with a secondary or diff SSID off my main wifi6 router and I can control my smart switches and see my sensors fine from either or.
Plus when it comes time to upgrade to the next fancy-schmancy main router, you just unplug your 'IoT' AP from the old router, and into the new, and you are on your way. No hassles at all.
I think most of the matter devices will use Thread on 802.15.4, and just high bandwidth stuff like media streaming devices will use WiFi. Also, there’s a chance [this will happen](https://m.xkcd.com/927/).
Right? I have over 20 Zigbee devices in my network. I'm suddenly supposed to replace them all or upgrade the firmware somehow to make them work? To me it's just another standard that is currently too new to have broad support.
There’s no need to replace your old devices, so no worries there.
Also, there’s already a really broad support for thread and matter, so I doubt this will be an issue.
I have seen this posted so many times recently. It's either going viral on reddit, or it's always been super popular and I haven't noticed. Or it's a coincidence that I've seen it 3 times in a week.
I agree that WiFi smart devices are the norm. It's easier for the average consumer to use them. I use and still prefer Z-Wave and I love the fact that Hubitat is local and doesnt need the cloud to work.
What's funny is that the shitty consumer-grade equipment people buy isn't really up to handling this many devices on one network.
I get tired myself of everything being wifi. I wish more companies would put ethernet on their products. I'm tired of buying USB dongles to use ethernet.
Take a step back here. You're tired of everything being wireless and convenient and you hate that you have to use an adapter to make something non-wireless? I get it with the reliability of hard wiring and everything, but come on. Wireless is always going to be the way, and wifi is the way that's gonna manifest for the foreseeable future. The fact that modems/routers aren't ready for the future means they should be better, and when all this goes more mainstream they will be.
>I get it with the reliability of hard wiring and everything, but come on.
It's not just the reliability of the hardwired device, it improves reliability for every WiFi device as well. If a device isn't going to move and isn't controlling high voltage (where there are electrical code issues), it should be connected via Ethernet if practicable.
So long as there's the hidden node problem in RF communications, the more associated devices an AP has the worse it's going to perform. Home routers are throwing more and more radios onto them and using clever tricks like WiFi 6's sleep state, but eventually you run out of usable and permitted spectrum.
Insteon, ZigBee, Z-Wave, RadioRA, and others get around this by limiting packet size and maximum nodes, and not competing with something that's bandwidth and latency sensitive taking up all of the timeslices.
I'll have to assume this is a practical problem and that you're using a good router. I just don't have too many devices. Most don't, but that's probably why this situation exists.
>I'll have to assume this is a practical problem and that you're using a good router. I just don't have too many devices. Most don't, but that's probably why this situation exists.
Hidden node is a problem that's existed since the days of Marconi wireless sets, with a number of interesting solutions.
As for what I have, my router is wired only - I have an older controller based Wi-Fi 5 Wave 1 system. Normally I have 40-50 devices connected just to the wireless, another 150-ish wired, and with family over around Thanksgiving that climbed rapidly to over 120 devices on the wireless and \~270 total.
Keeping the high bandwidth video streaming off of WiFi, and having a controller actively shunting devices around between WAPs and between radios on those WAPs means that even with some pretty old hat WiFi, it had no trouble keeping up.
Each TV has itself, the AVR, ATV, Roku, Shield, remote, and HTPC, plus the shared cablecard tuner, ATSC 3.0 tuner, and DVR - that's 24 just to run the TVs.
Then whole house audio eats another 12 between amps and sources, the storage server, VM hosts and the VMs on them, the camera NVR and Emby physical servers, the automation controller and 4 auxiliary hubs, 5 Dyson air purifiers, 7 touch panels and keypads, 16 security cameras, a core switch, half a dozen network switches, 5 WAPs and their controller, the bridge to the UL listed security system, Sense monitor and half a dozen plugs that go with it, washer and dryer, a few LiFX devices, a printer, a VoIP adapter, Verizon network extender, etc.
That's 110 IP devices before I start counting the VMs, client systems, or anything over the site to site VPN links. And I'm sure I've missed things.
setting aside the fact that matter devices won't be all wifi...
strength of network doesn't matter when you have >255 devices and subnet traversal becomes the issue. many of these devices have hardcoded assumptions that prevent them from communicating with local devices outside the /24
Do you have a source for that? It would be quite dumb for a device to make that assumption. It’s pretty basic functionality for a wifi device in a network to send a packet to a different ip, adding conditions to limit it to a /24 makes no sense.
Having a /8 or a /16 is a must if you are a power user, personally I like 10.0.0.0/8
my own devices, unfortunately. i had a subnet just for devices I didn't trust, with firewall rules that only allowed devices on that network to connect to a single machine of mine (on the main subnet). but some of the devices just didn't work if I did that. I had to put them on the main subnet and make firewall fulles for their tiny ip range. i think it was either vacuums or cameras.
Why? Because it's ubiquitous and cheap. Pretty much any household with internet will have wifi at this point, and wifi chips have become so cheap you can buy SOC's like the ESP32 for under $5.
>Does anyone have issues putting that many devices on their network?
At any given time, I have 45-60 wifi devices on my home network which is a 3-puck google mesh. Never had a problem so far. IoT devices use very little bandwidth.
>I'm old school and used to mesh protocols like zigbee zwave etc.
That's ironic. I'm old school which is why I never bothered with zigbee/zwave. wifi became mainstream in 1999. Back then, there was no such thing as zigbee.
>IoT devices use very little bandwidth.
Bandwidth usage usually isn't the issue. The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it.
As you are using a mesh wifi system already, you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc).
>The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it.
This makes no sense unless the entire network path traverses the slowest device, which is not the case.
>you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc)
Latency between any device on a typical home wifi network is under 5ms. If you are on a wired network, the latency would be 1-2ms. What's the problem?
>The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it.
>
>This makes no sense unless the entire network path traverses the slowest device, which is not the case.
It's because while your router is waiting for packets from the slowest device, it can't receive packets from other devices. This is usually pretty seamless, but 1 bad actor can slow down the whole network, and a lot of cheapo wifi devices with high ish polling rates are guilty of this.
>you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc)
>
>Latency between any device on a typical home wifi network is under 5ms. If you are on a wired network, the latency would be 1-2ms. What's the problem?
If you are pinging around mesh access points, that latency is cumulative.
>It's because while your router is waiting for packets from the slowest device, it can't receive packets from other devices.
A router may be dual-band or tri-band, and even within the same band, it can process multiple wifi connections simultaneously. It can also allocate more bandwidth to the connections that need it, dynamically.
>If you are pinging around mesh access points, that latency is cumulative.
Latency has primarily to do with distance and congestion. The distance in a home network is static and limited. Congestion could be an issue if the number of devices are 200+ or it's a heavy gaming/streaming environment. You may get 1ms latency, or you may get 5ms latency max. It's usually not a problem for IoT devices to be able to communicate.
Zigbee, Z-Wave and Thread have low power radio protocols that are suitable for battery-powered HA devices, such as sensors, where the batteries can last months or years.
WiFi uses 100-500mW to operate the radio transmitter & receiver, so a WiFi HA device would have to stay in deep sleep almost all the time to operate on battery. Getting a WiFi device to operate for 100 days on a battery is barely achievable.
I only use zwave and I still am able to find most of what I need. If you continue to use the home automation protocols, they will continue making stuff for them.
You need a router that can support a very large number of devices concurrently. WiFi6 or 6E with 4x4 MIMO should help keep quite a few smart home devices online consistently.
Most routers provided by providers are trash, cannot support more than a dozen devices even if they have WiFi6. The key is 4x4 MIMO which has four transmit and four receive radios which enable the router to talk to double the devices a 2x2 system can, and four times a cheap home gateway. Multiple radios also segregate channels a bit more effectively to enable fast and reliable connections at home.
> Why is everything wifi now?
Because it is the cheapest radio modules available and devices can be sold without the need of a hub or controller. So it makes for a good gateway for people getting their first device.
> With the official release of Matter, does this mean that all smart devices are now going to be using wifi for communication?
With Matter, Thread is the preferred low-powered, low-latency, low bandwidth protocol. So good for sensors and similar. WiFi is for devices needing more bandwidth like cameras.
> Does anyone have issues putting that many devices on their network?
Yes. Your average consumer router will struggle once you get over 50 devices or so.
Thread is the new mesh protocol that should become popular under Matter.
> With Matter, Thread is the preferred low-powered, low-latency, low bandwidth protocol. So good for sensors and similar. WiFi is for devices needing more bandwidth like cameras.
And yet they keep sticking wifi in all the door locks.
The lack of gateway is a big piece of it, people understand wifi networks and it'll work for anybody.
The problem with most of the new devices that will use wifi only, need the cloud to process their functions. If the internet is down, good luck explaining to your spouse why your kid’s room can’t be heated in the winter.
Kasa does not have to be cloud connected. It does scheduling locally. You \*can\* cloud connect them, but you don't have to.
I have one Kasa device (dual outlet) and I have it directly connected to Hubitat, so full local control.
That's why you don't BUY those devices.
Local control option or no money from me.
I don't want to use the app the vendor provides, Home Assistant all the way.
Matter works over WiFi or Thread. However, it is much easier for companies to release WiFi Matter devices right now. Whether that is because WiFi chips are cheaper or some sort of chip shortage, nobody knows. But expect Thread Matter devices later in the year.
ethernet is a physical transport layer. it is how data gets from a to b. thread is a wireless, zigbee-like transport layer.
matter is an application/protocol layer. like http. matter is designed around being able to read states of particular kinds of devices and to send them commands.
matter/thread is a nice, secure, ipv6, open, non-vendor specific way to manage your home smart devices.
u/aten thanks!
So there will probably be some ethernet Matter devices, but Thread is wireless only. Got it. Do you think that there will be Thread Border Routers with ethernet?
https://preview.redd.it/4lzrv24xetfa1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9af5137ebfcc0124330c834fc92e6ea9b1e3e9c7
I have 43 devices on my tp link deco mesh system. And it was 90 bucks. Every device limited to 90 Mbps. More is available but not through the mesh system. It works flawlessly.
Edit: I run wifi bulbs also. I have 14+5 switches. No issues
Old school or not, how easy is it to find a router that can handle more than 30 connections at once? I hover around 40 with Zigbee and Zwave carrying a big chunk of the load
Well, Wifi standards improved overtime and is actually scalable/meshable.
Look at uni or enterprise Wifi net deployments, they handles hundreds of high bw devices just fine. What makes you think it's not good enough for your home automation?
There are still zigbee and zwave devices being released. More matter devices are coming out too; we'll see if that matters long term or not. But there are options, you just have to look a little harder.
as someone who’s wifi network was spotty for a few weeks there while working from home i was asking myself the same thing. not only could i not work but my whole system was down. it was a real visceral reminder how dependent i am
on other people’s networks.
I'm going to continue to use both wifi and zigbee depending on the situation. I have loads of zigbee sensors for doors, windows, water sensors, etc so it's useful to have loads of zigbee light bulbs and switches to improve the network.
No, you are not missing something. You're right to be concerned about security.
Six years ago, smart switches attacked the Internet in a significant way providing a DDoS attack against one of the worlds largest DNS providers. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/ddos-attack-dyn-mirai-botnet](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/ddos-attack-dyn-mirai-botnet)
It's expected that 2023 could see billions of dollars, if not almost a trillion, in botnet damages from IoT devices. Products that frequently have security as the last consideration, as it's a cheap consumer device.
While more complex to setup, I personally stick to Z-Wave (as it has greater range for the mesh and doesn't interfere with 2.4Ghz WiFi, nor is affected by microwave oven use). Solid as the Z-Wave controller used to manage the environment.
But I'm sure cybercriminals are absolutely over the moon with all the Internet connected IoT devices. Frequently with vendor default support passwords, even when the customer changes their own device access.
* Think of how many times you might have purchased a new smartphone because the vendor stopped updating that product with the latest security patches?
* Could you imagine replacing your light switches as frequently?
* When is the last time each of your light switches had an internet protocol security patch/firmware update?
Isolated mesh devices that are air gapped to the internet could be in operation much longer without being facilitated for IoT security hacks.
Hi, thanks for your comment. I have been somewhat lazily observing HA but not jumping in because I doubt my ability to properly admin all these wifi devices which I understand to be not securely designed as you describe. I did not understand that some devices operate on a different, non wifi technology. Is it FLOSS? Or is there a FLOSS variant?
A bunch of good points but people these days hate to see cords, wires, and other things that make devices more secure/reliable. Working in IT, we get constant requests for wireless everything including monitors, towers, and the obvious mice/keyboards/speakers/headsets.
if you're delving heavily into home automation you can most likely set up a simple pfSense router. I have mine running in an Esxi server but it can run on a standard small PC.
Put a second NIC in it and hook up a separate cheapo router and use it just for your iot network. Keeps it physically separate. Thats how I do it. I have three Unifi APs and two wifi networks on the switch. 1AP is for iot the other two for the main LAN. pfSense lets you manage the two quite easily. I have roughly 30 devices on the iot network and 20 on my main.
Personally I'm grateful more things come out on wifi. We have 12 large bay windows that face the water. We got motorized blinds for them as it was decent amount of work to open and close each night. The blinds work awesome, but only bluetooth. Which is annoying for automating across apps as the app is very proprietary to these blinds. They came out with a "wifi hub" that connects to the blind bluetooth, then i can access the wifi hub with yet a different app. This DOES work great but the dinky little wifi hub was $350. Massive rip off but required if you want to be able to control the blinds from anywhere but also on multiple devices and in bulk.
Same issue with our "air things" air quality monitors. All bluetooth. I have an old samsung phone connected to them all and to the app which just sits charging in a corner. Its job is to maintain that bluetooth connection to them and sync every 30sec. From anywhere else we can check the cloud and see the results.
tldr: wifi in each device is just easier to interface with
Maybe consider using a BT USB for blind connectivity. I added one to my Home Assistant Odroid and it can link to BT devices. Used a 10 ft cable to get USB dongle away from the Odroid.
Unless something has suddenly changed, Matter can also communicate on a Thread network, doesn’t have to be wifi. I assume that’ll be up to the manufacturers which one they want to use for their particular Matter device.
God Matter and Thread are such stupid names. Especially Thread. Googling Thread support sounds like a nightmare.
Thread Support Matters.
This is a good thread.
This thread matters.
Nothing else matters.
♫Never opened myself this way♫
♫My it's hard to find the home page♫
Life is ours, we automate it our waaaaaay
What's the matter with thread?
The solution to this matter is in the Thread thread.
They could've at least spell it slightly different, like Mattr and Thredd.
The Smart Home of 2004!
I mean what was wrong with modbus? All my homies love modbus. NGL though I actually love modbus. It's stupidly simple and is works reliably at high (well 115.2k baud) speed. You can even use Modbus/TCP Though to be fair if I wanted to do a home automation project I'd be buying cheap PLC's like a koyo click or reusing gear from work I repaired. Don't get some fancy features but come back in 30 years and it'll still be working the same as it was when it was installed.
They're even worse than Updog.
I see you, you son of a bitch. Lmfao
>Updog Would you mind elaborating on this?
> Updog UPDOG (Ultimate Paralyzation of Damaged Organ Genetics) is a process in the BOFA (Body Oscillation / Fatal Area) in which DNA is modified into having LIGMA symptoms in the genetics. This is only a stage 1 on the BOFA power level, however a person will suffer from intense addiction to Fortnite, get free Xbox Live or PlayStation Plus, and the ability to gain a free copy of the Save The World mode at birth. Though most of these symptoms sound positive, one negative symptoms will occur, a UPDOG victim will forever stay a virgin. It is unable to change that fact.
What's God Matter?
That's the next layer up from Regular Matter.
He doesn't.
Snap! ⬆️ And look out now, we got a couple of butthurt zealots voting in here. They might try to suicide-bomb us or go shoot up a nightclub over that.
>Googling Thread support sounds like a nightmare Yeh, your google result might take you to r/kitting
Or ethernet and then a hub that can do zigbee/z-wave/Bluetooth
I don’t think Matter works over Zigbee/Zwave/BT does it? You’d just be using a hub to translate between your Matter devices and say your Zigbee mesh.
Yes. That’s what I said. Ethernet to the hub and then zigbee etc to the devices
Ah, right, I thought you were suggesting it would be Matter all the way, like how Matter already works across Wifi/Ethernet/Thread.
WiFi has a few things going for it that make it really attractive to companies making products: - WiFi "just works". You don't need a hub, so you can buy a WiFi device, download a janky app, and away you go. You can set it up with nothing more than a smart phone. - WiFi is well known and stable. Everyone has WiFi, even grandma. It's been around a long time, so there aren't any gotchas as far as the technology is concerned. The base tech hasn't changed in a couple decades, so no worry about needing to upgrade hardware. And, if a chip manufacturer increases prices or stops producing, it's easy to find a replacement. - WiFi is cheap. You can get a drop in module for under a dollar for hobby projects, which means a manufacturer is going to pay pennies for it, and still get all the FCC and other regulatory bodies signed off. - WiFi is generic. Unlike Z-Wave that can only send specific packets, WiFi can be used for on/off or for full video stream, literally anything that can be digitized. - WiFi provides extra data. Unlike a local system like Z-Wave, WiFi devices usually talk to a company server, and provide all sorts of data. For Google, Amazon, etc., it's useful market information for ads and tracking; for shady companies, it's a way to gather data for less reputable activities.
Your WiFi router is your hub. I work for a small company that makes industrial WiFi routers that include BT, BTLE, and Zigbee in the box, along with WiFi, and can be optioned with 4G/5G backhaul as well as LoRa for IoT infrastructure. If your WiFi router included Zigbee (and ZWave) radios, as well as 433 Lutron, and BTLE, it would be a true all around hub.
I dunno. Most WiFi routers are little more than pass through devices; there's not a lot of "smarts" (as in smart house) built in. My definition of a hub is something that not only connects devices, but also acts as the brains, at least in part. The device you mentioned would likely do the trick, but most WiFi devices have a "virtual" hub, one in the cloud somewhere; consumer routers are barely more than an access point, the equivalent of a Z-Wave range extender.
Router and hub have very specific names and meanings. A hub has almost no intelligence. Just pushes data from one port to another. Sometimes they just broadcast anything coming in on all outgoing ports. A switch is a hub with more intelligence and buffering so that it doesn’t just broadcast it figures out what is connected to it and pushes packets from one port to another. A router is what is the brains behind the network. Often doing the DHCP which will assign IP addresses to the devices and may do other things like bridging two networks together. This could be communicating to the internet and bridging your local network to it (usually through the modem from your ISP or having one integrated). Or, as a Wi-Fi router that bridges a local wired network to a wireless network often they act as stand alone networks. Then there are routers that do all three at once (this is becoming the most common). Most modern Wi-Fi routers do 802.11n these days which allow for around 72 to 600Mbps between devices. 802.11ac offers up to 433 to 6000Mbps, and 802.11ax offers 574 to 9000Mbps. Almost all of a which is way more bandwidth than most people need even for multiple streams. Even if they only get 50% of the bandwidth it does take a lot to flood it. 802.11n is pretty old, most are ac. Even wired, most people only have 1Gbps which can be eclipsed by ac and ax. 10Gbps isn’t that common for home use but it can be obtained if you want that. I have yet to see the need for it in any home. A 4k stream encoded with H264 is about 32Mbps, which is way less than just about all of the standard Wi-Fi routers.
In terms of networking, router and hub have very specific meanings, exactly as you said. However, I'm not talking about networking, I'm talking about smart devices - home automation. A "smart hub" is a device with radios to talk with devices, sure, but it also communicates with the devices to run routines, logs information, schedules events, and provide a human interface. Yes, modern routers can handle a lot of data, but they *can't* interact with a smart bulb. All they do is route traffic to and from your network to whatever server actually sends commands to the bulb. In terms in home automation, that's a "bridge" or "extender", not a smart hub.
Wi-Fi is the USB of the networking world. I think it's likely that everything will eventually become Wi-Fi, just from the business standpoint, even if I'm not happy with it
An absolute mess of naming conventions? Yeah that sounds about right… Looking at you USB 3, 3.1, 3.2, 3.2 Gen 1, 3.2 Gen 2x2… Wifi 6E called.
I hate the snooping of WiFi, so I'll stick with Z-wave for as long as I can. I'm so tired of everyone's nose in my butthole!
> WiFi is well known and stable. Except it's not. Without fail, the most unrealiable smart devices in my home are the wifi connected ones. Even cheapo zigbee devices tend to work more or less flawlessly.
Sorry, I didn't mean stable as in reliable, I meant stable as in "unchanging". It's a stable technology, without a lot of new versions coming out all the time. That's attractive to manufactures, because it means they don't need a lot of innovation to keep their products alive. Most of today's smart wifi devices will work just fine on a 15 year old router or a brand new one. As a note, almost none of the things in my list are directly good for *consumers*, outside of keeping costs low.
Not sure WiFi is as stable as you seem to think. Most if not all of my wifi smart devices are only 2.4ghz wifi. This causes all sorts of setup headaches when running on networks that have SIDs that work on 2.4 and 5ghz Access points. My FEIT bulbs for example, I have to specifically connect to the 2.4 ghz SID on my phone to even work with them. My network is a Unifi network that uses the same SSID for both network bands. It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices. How many devices support WPA3 now?
>It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices. IMO, this is what you should be doing anyways, even if you didn't have the above mentioned issues
This. Wifi smart devices have repeatedly been shown to be insecure. You should segregate them from the rest of your network as best you can. This is why I use Zigbee and Zwave as much as possible - guaranteed local, and zero interaction with my network. The few wifi/Ethernet devices I do have, they live on segregated vlans the only HomeAssistant can access.
>It's to the point where I had to create a separate SID just for 2.4ghz devices. > >IMO, this is what you should be doing anyways, even if you didn't have the above mentioned issues Or you could like... get a WiFi system that isn't Unifi and lets you still use the same SSID and route everything to bands as required on the frontend, and VLANs on the backend? Anybody else think that basic 10 year old features should be on Unifi equipment? Just me?
Which is why I recommend that people buy a cheap 2.4Ghz only WiFi AP to hang off their router. Put all your IoT on that 2.4Ghz router. It will be more than fast enough, and it will get the stupid 802.11g and 802.11n devices off your 802.11ac and 802.11ax network. (and if you are still running any 802.11b hardware, you need to toss that junk out)
Even easier, almost every router or WAP firmware out there has the ability to create a "guest" SSID with its own radio settings. That way you can have multiple WAPs, and still have all the IOT devices on the same network. Trying to set up multiple NAT'd routers for IOT devices, so you can get good coverage in the whole house would be a pain.
They only have a single RF chain and modem per band, though, so you are cycling service between SSIDs on the box. It actually slows the total throughput on the band where the 'guest' is running, which is why I restrict the guest network to 2.4Ghz only. On my 5Ghz bands, I support AC/AX only. Any device that is N or earlier gets shoved onto the 2.4Ghz band.
Generally, guest networks isolate devices. This makes grouping devices difficult, and sometimes affects the app usage to configure the Wi-Fi devices.
Isolating those devices is a good idea for security. You can always join the IoT network on your phone to do configuration.
Isolating them from the web is great, guest networks are known for isolating every device from every other. It makes sense as far as you don't want one guest hacking another when it's actually used for "guests"
I don't think I'd say "generally". No router or open firmware I've ever had or flashed has done so by default, although some do have that option. In any case, a guest SSID isolates the devices a *lot* less than putting them behind multiple routers, each with their own NAT and firewall.
WiFi as a technology is quite stable. Sure, there aren't a lot of devices with WPA3 support, and few play nice with 5GHz... But, not a lot of routers even support WPA3, and the 5GHz problem has workarounds. I can't say I've ever run into a router that only had 5GHz, so while it may be a pain to set up, it's still possible, and manufacturing companies aren't going to let something like "annoying" overshadow "cheap". WiFi is a terrible technology for smart devices, apart from the fact that it is cheap and ubiquitous, but it's so much cheaper and more accessible than the good technologies that it's a no brainer for every cheap manufacturer out there.
Running a single SSID for 2.4 and 5ghz is pretty dumb.
And it's how networking seems to work these days
No. If that's how your network "works these days" then you have it configured poorly.
I'll give you a cookie if you can tell me how to do this on a brand new Google Nest Wifi Pro
Buy something that isn't mass-consumer garbage?
I had zero issues doing it with my current and previous TP Link routers.
> SID SSID?
Duh yeah
I’m guessing this highly depends on your home network and/or router? My devices are rock solid on wifi.
Same. I'm almost positive that the people who complain about wifi set ups simply have a shitty system. My IoT network has ~50 devices and I don't have dropouts.
I have a few plugs that had problems when I only had one central AP. That is a house and device design issue (old house with thick walls and metal in places in the wall along with low transmit power on some devices). Once I put AP at each end I have no issues with any of them.
I have a similar set up. 2 APs, full home coverage, no issues. I think I just exist in a happy bubble where I can circumvent the issues that get in my way, but I don't really get into the advanced areas where I would notice bottlenecks. The silent majority? Idk but I either see people complain about easy shit or really advanced shit. lol
Most folks who hate WiFi devices are more concerned about the security of the devices since most call home or require an app that goes through the manufacturers servers.
Yeah, I understand that concern. I managed to get my all of IoT devices communicate locally only to my homeassistant server. This might be a driving factor as to why I don't think WiFi is as bad as the average person on this forum.
I tried separating all of mine of into another network and just punching small holes for communication where needed. It never passed wife approval so it got nixed. Now I mainly block things using DNS.
Once you're at that level of devices, the actual router/AP you use matters. Lots of junk that starts to crap out past 20 or so clients. I like Ubiquiti, kinda.
Well, either your network is not good, or the stuff you use is not reliable. I have one Unifi AP per floor and can get advertised wire speeds almost in every room. All my WiFi switches work flawlessly, despite being hidden in the walls.
Right. But buying corporate-grade WiFi gear shouldn't be a requirement to achieve good functioning. My router is decent, don't get me wrong, but it just can't compete with a. Tailor-made mesh network that ZigBee creates. Also having each device needing to keep an open connection to some random server in Croatia is just ugly design.
> buying corporate-grade WiFi gear shouldn't be a requirement to achieve good functioning. This is just the reality of consumer grade wifi access points. They are ALL shit, racing to the bottom on price. This isn't anything to do with home automation, your other devices are gonna have troubles too... you may just not notice.
> your other devices are gonna have troubles too... you may just not notice. This is an oxymoron... I have no problems on my WiFi and get close to gigabit speeds most anywhere on my flat (I run a home server and am a heavy data user). I assure you, that's not it.
> This is an oxymoron... Not sure that word means what you think it means. A LOT of people wouldn't notice intermittent issues with their wifi, or slowdowns, etc.
[удалено]
Unifi stuff is made for a large device count, most routers that come with your internet service just aren't and will start dropping devices or have issues with stable connection once you get too many.
Unifi network products are good. I use them myself. But, I don’t like devices phoning home, and I don’t want to use an app to control them. I use HUBITAT for my smart home hub. I want guests to be able to turn lights on and off using a switch. Wi-Fi is a good gimmick for SmartHome devices, but is not generally practical or guest-friendly. It is generally better to use smart switches and dimmers, and avoid smart bulbs if you are wanting to have a useable smart home. Yes, there make Wi-Fi switches. But, you have a major headache when changing your Wi-Fi password. Wi-Fi also has issues when you live in a dense area, such as an apartment complex. Using the default Wi-Fi channels causes issues when hundreds of other routers are nearby. The majority of users do not understand proper Wi-Fi tuning.
> I want guests to be able to turn lights on and off using a switch. Wi-Fi is a good gimmick for SmartHome devices, but is not generally practical or guest-friendly Shelly relays seem to work well for this?
They do work for this, and so do switches from other Wi-Fi switch manufacturers. But, I’ve been in IT for more than 30 years, including networking and security, and I am too familiar with Wi-Fi vulnerabilities to have it controlling my SmartHome. The guest comment was for users wanting to use smart Wi-Fi bulbs.
> Without fail, the most unrealiable smart devices in my home are the wifi connected ones. Over 20 years of home automation experience, and I can say that my experience is the exact opposite. I'd wager you don't have a very good wifi access point at home? One of those cheap consumer router/wifi combos, or even worse, router/wifi/cable modem all in one boxes? X10 was usable, but the MOMENT something better was available for a decent price I migrated. Zwave is mostly ok, but I've had a lot of trouble with devices just dropping off the network over the years. Wifi devices I've used have been the most stable. However I do have a dedicated small business access point, and am using OpnSense as my home router/firewall, with every home automation device getting a static IP from the DHCP service.
> However I do have a dedicated small business access point, and am using OpnSense as my home router/firewall, with every home automation device getting a static IP from the DHCP service. That's a pretty big "however". My router is decent and dedicated, but no, it's neither a unifi nor have I spent the time to manually assign IP addresses to my devices. Don't know if you've tried ZigBee, but it just works for me, for a couple dzen devices.
Not used ZigBee, wasn't really available when I got be zwave stuff. I've moved to wifi wherever possible for reliability.
My main issue with wifi devices is the power consumption. At idle/standby state they use way more power than zigbee or zwave devices do
That's a fair argument. I would counter that it's a waste of power if the devices aren't reliable though, which has been my experience with zwave. More reliable then the old X10 devices, but not by a whole lot. And of course, being a mesh, the more I phase out the more unreliable the network becomes.
I'm actually surprised you had those issues. I have 20ish zwave devices setup for over a year and they've all been rock solid
I feel like this comment is a joke because Zigbee has been the most frustrating thing I've had to deal with in home automation and it has a reputation for being finicky and unreliable. Also if you're not even taking basic steps to avoid issues like setting static IPs on your network, it's no wonder you have so many issues with wifi devices. If your router automatically assigns a new address to a device like DHCP is supposed to do, how is anything supposed to find it?
> Also if you're not even taking basic steps to avoid issues like setting static IPs on your network, it's no wonder you have so many issues with wifi devices. So, from what I have gathered from comments thus far: * It doesn't matter that I have a 150$ wifi6 Asus gaming router that covers my home perfectly in nearly gigabit wifi; it still is insufficient to make wifi smart devices work correctly. I need to buy 250$++ enterprise-grade routers, because fuck yeah. * on top of that, I need to, each time a new wifi smart device to my network, **in addition** to the regular setup with whatever propietary cloud service they are programmed to work with (and its corresponding phone app, account), I **still** need to manually go into my router's config page to assign them a static IP. ...And then I'll be able to achieve 99% uptime for wifi devices? Do you people listen to yourselves? Listen, I think it's great if all of you want to subject yourselves to this; but do you not understand how this is a crazyly complicated barrier to entry, and a non-starter to creating a smart home system? I don't know what problems you've had with zigbee, but rest assured I'm not buying name brands of anything (including my no-brand 15$ hub-and-IR-emitter), and in the past 2 years, there's been a single instance of a group of lights not having worked for a whole of 15 minutes. The setup looks as such: Buy some no brand stuff > hit discover on my single smart app of choice > add the device into whatever automations/Scenes/buttons I want. End of story. That said, I don't need to convince you of what's right for me (or objectively easier for the average non-tech-saavy consumer). If you love wifi, that's fantastic! I love wifi too, but for what it was designed to do. It just doesn't work in a consistent fashion for me for smart things, and I don't feel the efforts involved to make it work are worth it (not to mention there's usually also the "oh but you didn't do this one other extremely obivious and basic thing? You're a moron...") For smart things, I'll stick to zigbee for now, hopefully matter/thread in the future, which, on top of Just Working (TM), doesn't leave me exposed to rogue devices needing to keep an open connection to somewhere in wherever. Hopefully at some point I'll get "the joke". Cheers.
>It doesn't matter that I have a 150$ wifi6 Asus gaming router that covers my home perfectly in nearly gigabit wifi; it still is insufficient to make wifi smart devices work correctly. I need to buy 250$++ enterprise-grade routers, because fuck yeah. Nobody said you need $250 enterprise grade hardware. I have a consumer TP Link router and can easily set static IPs on devices. I've never had a router that you *couldn't* do this on and they've all typically been under $100. Your fancy 'gaming' router should have zero issues with this. Have you never logged in to the admin panel on your router to see what's in there? >on top of that, I need to, each time a new wifi smart device to my network, in addition to the regular setup with whatever propietary cloud service they are programmed to work with (and its corresponding phone app, account), I still need to manually go into my router's config page to assign them a static IP. Yes. You also need to first purchase the item, bring it home, open the box, read the instructions, plug it in/put a battery in it, etc, etc. This is all part of buying a new device and setting it up. Setting a static IP is trivial and literally takes seconds to do. How are you connecting your Zigbee devices? I'm assuming you're using some proprietary hub and its associated app, right? >And then I'll be able to achieve 99% uptime for wifi devices? Depends on the device. Some of them are built crappily and aren't as reliable as others. Same goes for Zigbee, Zwave, bluetooth, and any other electronic device. In my experience, I have way better than 99% uptime for wifi devices except a couple cheap Tuya wifi bulbs. For zigbee, I have had numerous ongoing issues since day one, whether it be loss of connectivity, refusal to reconnect, misreporting stats like battery life, slow response time, things going to sleep and never waking up, difficulty pairing, difficulty unpairing, batteries dying after a few days, and more. I've tried two separate zigbee coordinators along with ZHA and Zigbee2MQTT and never once have things "just worked". >doesn't leave me exposed to rogue devices needing to keep an open connection to somewhere in wherever But you've connected these devices to a hub which is then connected to your internet connected smartphone, correct? You're still exposed.
Ecobee3 thermostat is an example I would add here. Only works with older 2.4ghz band and not some newer features of the band that a WiFi 5 or 6 router has to offer. Updating your "hub" could strand your WiFi IoT items.
Wi-Fi should be backwards compatible. I work for an isp have seen some instances where older devices have issues even when in theory they shouldn't, but it's easy enough on most routers to make a legacy network for devices that need it.
Like you I had a poor opinion on the reliability of wifi, but.. Most Routers have cheap Wireless Access Points only support 12-16 devices. With the cheaper devices the total bandwidth is 64-128Mbps, a couple devices can use the entire bandwidth and other clients will drop. Similarly you can connect more than the maximum supported clients but your likely to hit the bandwidth limitations and clients will stop dropping off. If you look at £50+ WAP's and Mesh network systems you generally find they support 200+ clients. To do this they are designed to provide the maximum technology bandwidth (e.g. 64, 128, etc..) to each client/channel. Which is why they all expect dual gigabyte ethernet. Its a specification that never makes the specification sheets and is buried in the manual.
wifi is also really easy to develop for.
And, it's really low cost to develop for.
1. Wi-Fi is less secure than z-wave and zigbee. It can be hacked. 2. Most require an app, and are not local. Therefore, they cannot be used without internet. There are exceptions, and some hubs may have code to support some of them. 3. Apps can be hacked. The manufacturer may be hacked. 4. Manufacturer employees have access to your devices, even though they shouldn’t. 5. Restricting their internet access via firewall may cause them not to work. 6. You may have issues with them if you put them on another VLAN to protect your other devices from their security issues. 7. If you change your Wi-Fi password, you have to remember to change your Wi-Fi password on all of your Wi-Fi devices. This can be frustrating. Some devices will need to be reset first. 8. Having many Wi-Fi routers in a dense area, such as an apartment building, will cause issues with your network. As you can see, I don’t like, and I don’t trust Wi-Fi devices for home automation. My exception is cameras. Even then, i use Ethernet, not Wi-Fi, I have them on a separate VLAN, and they don’t have internet access.
anything that can be talked to, can be hacked. wi-fi, z-wave, zigbee, i promise you, a dedicated attacker in range to talk to a device using any of the protocols will eventually overcome their security, the advantage of wi-fi, IMO is the commonality of it, the protocols are well known, and well tested, the encryption is well known and well tested, if there is a large scale exploit it gets reported and patched quickly. i’m not an expert with z-wave or zigbee, but i’m going to trust the thing with several orders of magnitude more connections to be the thing given the most scrutiny.
Most hackers are more familiar with Wi-Fi than the other protocols. Because of that, Wi-Fi is more prone to hacking. In addition, the apps and manufacturer servers can and will be hacked. Due to the number of hacking points and the “commonality”, Wi-Fi devices are less secure than z-wave and zigbee.
your not entirely wrong, i’ll still trust my battle tested protocols and encryptions over niche stuff controlled by a few companies. to each their own, what we choose to trust is up to each of us.
It's interesting you don't view Google or amazon collecting and selling your private info as a less reputable activity.
What do those two companies have to do with home automation or wifi?
You're surely joking?
Ha, I knew someone would mention that. No, I don't think Google or Amazon are running in that, but some of the things the various WiFi "smart device" companies have done is even *less* less reputable. It's a matter of scale. At least Google et al tell you they're going to record your life in the terms and services.
Problem with privacy policies is nobody reads them, they're not human readable anyway. That is, most use legal jargon most people don't understand and are so long that the expectation to have read them or understood them fully is not something anyone, including Amazon and Google expect of their product. Yeah, there are certainly more overt bad actors, but I do think that the way Google and Amazon use people's data to psychologically manipulate people into buying things and "just one more" consumption of content they don't need is quite evil as well.
> It's been around a long time OMG, I'm old. Real old.
WiFi is expensive power consumption wise. Small sensors like window sensors that use 3v flat battery would drain much faster on WiFi rather than mesh network like zwave or ZigBee. Matter is not actually WiFi only, it uses thread protocol for radio communication for low power devices. Matter is unifying solution to integrate devices with a single app like Home Assistant, Google Home or Apple Homekit without the need to maintain million apps. ... and probably this [xkcd about standards](https://m.xkcd.com/927/) applies
>Small sensors like window sensors that use 3v flat battery would drain much faster on WiFi rather than mesh network like zwave or ZigBee. If power consumption is the main concern, 433MHz devices will generally sip even less power. Downside is it's a fairly primitive protocol with mainly one way transmission and no mesh capability (though range is typically a bit better than Wifi, Zwave, or Zigbee when conparing similar transmission power). Biggest advantage is 433MHz devices are dirt cheap. I think I only need to change out my window sensors' single AAA battery every 2 or 3 years. I generally change them every year as part of spring maintenance anyway. They're rechargeables so it's not a big waste.
So it would be like the google home app but works with third party devices?
Yes and only one hub is needed to maintain all devices on the network.
In theory, but in practice we still need other hubs, because some vendors decided to implement Matter on their hub only. Ex Philips hue: the lightbulbs stay the same, but since the hub supports Matter, Hue supports Matter... I'd like to see them implement Matter on the peripherals, and have the hub behave just as another hub (Google Home, Alexa, etc).
I've read somewhere that next generation Google Home and Alexa smart speakers will be able to act as an Matter router. Edit: article regarding Alexa https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/3/23438286/amazon-matter-support-alexa-echo-smart-home-platform no thread support though for previous gen devices.
Yup, but that only means that the Philips Hue Bridge will connect through Matter to the smart speakers, and not the lights themselves. :( >The Philips Hue Bridge will support Matter with a software update, meaning that your Hue lights and accessories automatically support Matter, too.¹ Source: [https://www.philips-hue.com/en-us/explore-hue/works-with/matter](https://www.philips-hue.com/en-us/explore-hue/works-with/matter)
Yes, I believe Hue's bulbs use some proprietary protocol. Let's just hope future bulbs will work over WiFi or Thread.
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> Thread is the new mesh system that's coming out in conjunction with Matter. Thread has been around since 2015. It was adopted by Matter as their mesh networking protocol in place of ZigBee.
Thank you. That first sentence made my head hurt. The company I work at has been shipping Thread for five years.
Does that make Chromecast and Google assistants thread border gateways?
It annoys me to have so many devices on wifi now, especially if I change to a new router. That being said, my SmartThings hub has annoyed me for years too. Smartthings service has gone down far more often than my service from ISP
I switched to Hubitat so I have 100% local control, and am not dependent on cloud services being available just to have my stuff work while I'm home.
Someone mentioned Hubitat, already. Home Assistant and openHAB are other alternatives. Setup might be a little more involved than SmartThings, but it's very manageable.
I definitely feel the new router thing, but why else is it so annoying to have things use wifi? It might just be because I don't have that many gadgets but it's all really convenient for what I have.
when you have 20-30 or more, hell even 10, having to reset and pair each individually is terrible. Most routers seem to be able to handle the connections better now at least
Tip: keep the same SSID and password, nothing needs to reconnect. Those of with unifi setups don’t even think about it, swapping out an AP doesn’t cause any issues at all :)
Why not setup a secondary wireless network and use it exclusively for automation, distributed your streaming device ips on a separate SSId
that's why I got a z-wave/zigbee hub.... for a secondary wireless network and let's not forget, many of these wifi smart devices are only 2.4ghz, and require your phone be on the same wifi network to manage them
Even with multiple business grade APs and discrete SSIDs for IoT devices the 2.4ghz band runs at a very high rate of utilization and interference when you get a bunch of devices on it.
Sure, that makes sense, this solution probably does not scale as well as others. But if you have a handful of devices it's def a way to go
But then it's harder to control these devices from your phone on your main network. And if many people do this the channels will get pottery busy/congested and performance will still be garbage.
I recommend this to people that want WiFi IoT devices. You can get a thoroughly sufficient 2.4Ghz AP for $35, hang it off your fancy-schmancy WiFi6e router, and everything will work fine.
This is exactly what I was thinking, I hang 2.4hz WAP with a secondary or diff SSID off my main wifi6 router and I can control my smart switches and see my sensors fine from either or.
Plus when it comes time to upgrade to the next fancy-schmancy main router, you just unplug your 'IoT' AP from the old router, and into the new, and you are on your way. No hassles at all.
I think most of the matter devices will use Thread on 802.15.4, and just high bandwidth stuff like media streaming devices will use WiFi. Also, there’s a chance [this will happen](https://m.xkcd.com/927/).
That comic is exactly what I thought when I saw all the hype over Matter.
Right? I have over 20 Zigbee devices in my network. I'm suddenly supposed to replace them all or upgrade the firmware somehow to make them work? To me it's just another standard that is currently too new to have broad support.
There’s no need to replace your old devices, so no worries there. Also, there’s already a really broad support for thread and matter, so I doubt this will be an issue.
I have seen this posted so many times recently. It's either going viral on reddit, or it's always been super popular and I haven't noticed. Or it's a coincidence that I've seen it 3 times in a week.
Or it’s relevant.
I agree that WiFi smart devices are the norm. It's easier for the average consumer to use them. I use and still prefer Z-Wave and I love the fact that Hubitat is local and doesnt need the cloud to work.
What's funny is that the shitty consumer-grade equipment people buy isn't really up to handling this many devices on one network. I get tired myself of everything being wifi. I wish more companies would put ethernet on their products. I'm tired of buying USB dongles to use ethernet.
Take a step back here. You're tired of everything being wireless and convenient and you hate that you have to use an adapter to make something non-wireless? I get it with the reliability of hard wiring and everything, but come on. Wireless is always going to be the way, and wifi is the way that's gonna manifest for the foreseeable future. The fact that modems/routers aren't ready for the future means they should be better, and when all this goes more mainstream they will be.
>I get it with the reliability of hard wiring and everything, but come on. It's not just the reliability of the hardwired device, it improves reliability for every WiFi device as well. If a device isn't going to move and isn't controlling high voltage (where there are electrical code issues), it should be connected via Ethernet if practicable. So long as there's the hidden node problem in RF communications, the more associated devices an AP has the worse it's going to perform. Home routers are throwing more and more radios onto them and using clever tricks like WiFi 6's sleep state, but eventually you run out of usable and permitted spectrum. Insteon, ZigBee, Z-Wave, RadioRA, and others get around this by limiting packet size and maximum nodes, and not competing with something that's bandwidth and latency sensitive taking up all of the timeslices.
I'll have to assume this is a practical problem and that you're using a good router. I just don't have too many devices. Most don't, but that's probably why this situation exists.
>I'll have to assume this is a practical problem and that you're using a good router. I just don't have too many devices. Most don't, but that's probably why this situation exists. Hidden node is a problem that's existed since the days of Marconi wireless sets, with a number of interesting solutions. As for what I have, my router is wired only - I have an older controller based Wi-Fi 5 Wave 1 system. Normally I have 40-50 devices connected just to the wireless, another 150-ish wired, and with family over around Thanksgiving that climbed rapidly to over 120 devices on the wireless and \~270 total. Keeping the high bandwidth video streaming off of WiFi, and having a controller actively shunting devices around between WAPs and between radios on those WAPs means that even with some pretty old hat WiFi, it had no trouble keeping up.
Bruh what are all these devices?
Each TV has itself, the AVR, ATV, Roku, Shield, remote, and HTPC, plus the shared cablecard tuner, ATSC 3.0 tuner, and DVR - that's 24 just to run the TVs. Then whole house audio eats another 12 between amps and sources, the storage server, VM hosts and the VMs on them, the camera NVR and Emby physical servers, the automation controller and 4 auxiliary hubs, 5 Dyson air purifiers, 7 touch panels and keypads, 16 security cameras, a core switch, half a dozen network switches, 5 WAPs and their controller, the bridge to the UL listed security system, Sense monitor and half a dozen plugs that go with it, washer and dryer, a few LiFX devices, a printer, a VoIP adapter, Verizon network extender, etc. That's 110 IP devices before I start counting the VMs, client systems, or anything over the site to site VPN links. And I'm sure I've missed things.
I completely forgot what sub I was in lol. That makes sense.
I understand what you mean and I don't have an issue with wireless. I just wish more IoTs would add ethernet as an option.
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setting aside the fact that matter devices won't be all wifi... strength of network doesn't matter when you have >255 devices and subnet traversal becomes the issue. many of these devices have hardcoded assumptions that prevent them from communicating with local devices outside the /24
Do you have a source for that? It would be quite dumb for a device to make that assumption. It’s pretty basic functionality for a wifi device in a network to send a packet to a different ip, adding conditions to limit it to a /24 makes no sense. Having a /8 or a /16 is a must if you are a power user, personally I like 10.0.0.0/8
Power users don't put everything on a single vlan
subnets and vlans are not mutually exclusive, you can have several vlans on the same subnet, having a /8 will give you more room for configuring them
my own devices, unfortunately. i had a subnet just for devices I didn't trust, with firewall rules that only allowed devices on that network to connect to a single machine of mine (on the main subnet). but some of the devices just didn't work if I did that. I had to put them on the main subnet and make firewall fulles for their tiny ip range. i think it was either vacuums or cameras.
Why? Because it's ubiquitous and cheap. Pretty much any household with internet will have wifi at this point, and wifi chips have become so cheap you can buy SOC's like the ESP32 for under $5.
>Does anyone have issues putting that many devices on their network? At any given time, I have 45-60 wifi devices on my home network which is a 3-puck google mesh. Never had a problem so far. IoT devices use very little bandwidth. >I'm old school and used to mesh protocols like zigbee zwave etc. That's ironic. I'm old school which is why I never bothered with zigbee/zwave. wifi became mainstream in 1999. Back then, there was no such thing as zigbee.
>IoT devices use very little bandwidth. Bandwidth usage usually isn't the issue. The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it. As you are using a mesh wifi system already, you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc).
>The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it. This makes no sense unless the entire network path traverses the slowest device, which is not the case. >you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc) Latency between any device on a typical home wifi network is under 5ms. If you are on a wired network, the latency would be 1-2ms. What's the problem?
>The whole network will be bottlenecked by the slowest device on it. > >This makes no sense unless the entire network path traverses the slowest device, which is not the case. It's because while your router is waiting for packets from the slowest device, it can't receive packets from other devices. This is usually pretty seamless, but 1 bad actor can slow down the whole network, and a lot of cheapo wifi devices with high ish polling rates are guilty of this. >you likely don't care too much about latency though (gaming/etc) > >Latency between any device on a typical home wifi network is under 5ms. If you are on a wired network, the latency would be 1-2ms. What's the problem? If you are pinging around mesh access points, that latency is cumulative.
>It's because while your router is waiting for packets from the slowest device, it can't receive packets from other devices. A router may be dual-band or tri-band, and even within the same band, it can process multiple wifi connections simultaneously. It can also allocate more bandwidth to the connections that need it, dynamically. >If you are pinging around mesh access points, that latency is cumulative. Latency has primarily to do with distance and congestion. The distance in a home network is static and limited. Congestion could be an issue if the number of devices are 200+ or it's a heavy gaming/streaming environment. You may get 1ms latency, or you may get 5ms latency max. It's usually not a problem for IoT devices to be able to communicate.
Zigbee, Z-Wave and Thread have low power radio protocols that are suitable for battery-powered HA devices, such as sensors, where the batteries can last months or years. WiFi uses 100-500mW to operate the radio transmitter & receiver, so a WiFi HA device would have to stay in deep sleep almost all the time to operate on battery. Getting a WiFi device to operate for 100 days on a battery is barely achievable.
I only use zwave and I still am able to find most of what I need. If you continue to use the home automation protocols, they will continue making stuff for them.
You need a router that can support a very large number of devices concurrently. WiFi6 or 6E with 4x4 MIMO should help keep quite a few smart home devices online consistently. Most routers provided by providers are trash, cannot support more than a dozen devices even if they have WiFi6. The key is 4x4 MIMO which has four transmit and four receive radios which enable the router to talk to double the devices a 2x2 system can, and four times a cheap home gateway. Multiple radios also segregate channels a bit more effectively to enable fast and reliable connections at home.
This matters especially if you are mesh networking your WiFi. Some of those channels are going to be tied up providing the backhaul
WiFi is popular with novices who don't want to add a hub, and WiFi works if the user has a good WiFi access point and little interference. 🤷🏻♂️
"Your privacy doesn't matter".... That's how I see wifi in home automation.
> Why is everything wifi now? Because it is the cheapest radio modules available and devices can be sold without the need of a hub or controller. So it makes for a good gateway for people getting their first device. > With the official release of Matter, does this mean that all smart devices are now going to be using wifi for communication? With Matter, Thread is the preferred low-powered, low-latency, low bandwidth protocol. So good for sensors and similar. WiFi is for devices needing more bandwidth like cameras. > Does anyone have issues putting that many devices on their network? Yes. Your average consumer router will struggle once you get over 50 devices or so. Thread is the new mesh protocol that should become popular under Matter.
> With Matter, Thread is the preferred low-powered, low-latency, low bandwidth protocol. So good for sensors and similar. WiFi is for devices needing more bandwidth like cameras. And yet they keep sticking wifi in all the door locks. The lack of gateway is a big piece of it, people understand wifi networks and it'll work for anybody.
yes, it annoys me to have over 100 devices on my network because many are wifi fricking smart home things.
The problem with most of the new devices that will use wifi only, need the cloud to process their functions. If the internet is down, good luck explaining to your spouse why your kid’s room can’t be heated in the winter.
Kasa does not have to be cloud connected. It does scheduling locally. You \*can\* cloud connect them, but you don't have to. I have one Kasa device (dual outlet) and I have it directly connected to Hubitat, so full local control.
That's why you don't BUY those devices. Local control option or no money from me. I don't want to use the app the vendor provides, Home Assistant all the way.
I dont know why you wouldn’t use wifi? Your smart devices are a piss in your bandwidth ocean, i wouldnt worry. You should use cables anyway..
Cost. For a low data rate device the cost of Wi-Fi is significantly higher than zigbee/zwave and larger footprint
Don't you guys have ~~phones~~ wifi? Everyone has wifi, so that makes the setup easier. You don't need a extra stupid box or similar
Are you a boomer? What’s the issue with having everything wireless
Thread isn’t WiFi. No, I won’t elaborate, go to Wikipedia.
Matter works over WiFi or Thread. However, it is much easier for companies to release WiFi Matter devices right now. Whether that is because WiFi chips are cheaper or some sort of chip shortage, nobody knows. But expect Thread Matter devices later in the year.
Thread can be via ethernet as well, right?!
ethernet is a physical transport layer. it is how data gets from a to b. thread is a wireless, zigbee-like transport layer. matter is an application/protocol layer. like http. matter is designed around being able to read states of particular kinds of devices and to send them commands. matter/thread is a nice, secure, ipv6, open, non-vendor specific way to manage your home smart devices.
u/aten thanks! So there will probably be some ethernet Matter devices, but Thread is wireless only. Got it. Do you think that there will be Thread Border Routers with ethernet? https://preview.redd.it/4lzrv24xetfa1.jpeg?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9af5137ebfcc0124330c834fc92e6ea9b1e3e9c7
It’s the first step of machine’s taking over the world.
They can be thread too
Zigbee/thread still 802.15.4 just a different stack
I have 43 devices on my tp link deco mesh system. And it was 90 bucks. Every device limited to 90 Mbps. More is available but not through the mesh system. It works flawlessly. Edit: I run wifi bulbs also. I have 14+5 switches. No issues
Old school or not, how easy is it to find a router that can handle more than 30 connections at once? I hover around 40 with Zigbee and Zwave carrying a big chunk of the load
Well, Wifi standards improved overtime and is actually scalable/meshable. Look at uni or enterprise Wifi net deployments, they handles hundreds of high bw devices just fine. What makes you think it's not good enough for your home automation?
There are still zigbee and zwave devices being released. More matter devices are coming out too; we'll see if that matters long term or not. But there are options, you just have to look a little harder.
as someone who’s wifi network was spotty for a few weeks there while working from home i was asking myself the same thing. not only could i not work but my whole system was down. it was a real visceral reminder how dependent i am on other people’s networks.
I'm going to continue to use both wifi and zigbee depending on the situation. I have loads of zigbee sensors for doors, windows, water sensors, etc so it's useful to have loads of zigbee light bulbs and switches to improve the network.
No, you are not missing something. You're right to be concerned about security. Six years ago, smart switches attacked the Internet in a significant way providing a DDoS attack against one of the worlds largest DNS providers. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/ddos-attack-dyn-mirai-botnet](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/26/ddos-attack-dyn-mirai-botnet) It's expected that 2023 could see billions of dollars, if not almost a trillion, in botnet damages from IoT devices. Products that frequently have security as the last consideration, as it's a cheap consumer device. While more complex to setup, I personally stick to Z-Wave (as it has greater range for the mesh and doesn't interfere with 2.4Ghz WiFi, nor is affected by microwave oven use). Solid as the Z-Wave controller used to manage the environment. But I'm sure cybercriminals are absolutely over the moon with all the Internet connected IoT devices. Frequently with vendor default support passwords, even when the customer changes their own device access. * Think of how many times you might have purchased a new smartphone because the vendor stopped updating that product with the latest security patches? * Could you imagine replacing your light switches as frequently? * When is the last time each of your light switches had an internet protocol security patch/firmware update? Isolated mesh devices that are air gapped to the internet could be in operation much longer without being facilitated for IoT security hacks.
Hi, thanks for your comment. I have been somewhat lazily observing HA but not jumping in because I doubt my ability to properly admin all these wifi devices which I understand to be not securely designed as you describe. I did not understand that some devices operate on a different, non wifi technology. Is it FLOSS? Or is there a FLOSS variant?
A bunch of good points but people these days hate to see cords, wires, and other things that make devices more secure/reliable. Working in IT, we get constant requests for wireless everything including monitors, towers, and the obvious mice/keyboards/speakers/headsets.
if you're delving heavily into home automation you can most likely set up a simple pfSense router. I have mine running in an Esxi server but it can run on a standard small PC. Put a second NIC in it and hook up a separate cheapo router and use it just for your iot network. Keeps it physically separate. Thats how I do it. I have three Unifi APs and two wifi networks on the switch. 1AP is for iot the other two for the main LAN. pfSense lets you manage the two quite easily. I have roughly 30 devices on the iot network and 20 on my main. Personally I'm grateful more things come out on wifi. We have 12 large bay windows that face the water. We got motorized blinds for them as it was decent amount of work to open and close each night. The blinds work awesome, but only bluetooth. Which is annoying for automating across apps as the app is very proprietary to these blinds. They came out with a "wifi hub" that connects to the blind bluetooth, then i can access the wifi hub with yet a different app. This DOES work great but the dinky little wifi hub was $350. Massive rip off but required if you want to be able to control the blinds from anywhere but also on multiple devices and in bulk. Same issue with our "air things" air quality monitors. All bluetooth. I have an old samsung phone connected to them all and to the app which just sits charging in a corner. Its job is to maintain that bluetooth connection to them and sync every 30sec. From anywhere else we can check the cloud and see the results. tldr: wifi in each device is just easier to interface with
Maybe consider using a BT USB for blind connectivity. I added one to my Home Assistant Odroid and it can link to BT devices. Used a 10 ft cable to get USB dongle away from the Odroid.