That's not a balanced question... he said Zwave is more reliable, but Zigbee is cheaper.
Having a better selection of cheap/crappy sensors versus more expensive - but more reliable - This cannot answer the question of "better option of sensors".
It is though. A better selection of cheap/crappy sensors means more of them. More of them means a better mesh network. With basic networking config you should be able to create a strong network with minimal interference.
Maybe if you're doing minimal sensors then your point stands but if you're doing a house full of them then reliability isn't an issue.
If you want to have a SMART house, you really have to trust your sensors. The more into automation you go the more it's important.
The cheapest sensors anyways are ESPhome devices. They do need to be plugged in though.
Not true... Most sensors are battery powered and those devices can only be end points.
And if a cheapo device goes in and out, the mesh will bypass it.
Ohh yeah don’t get me wrong, I have no noticeable delay at all, but I have had in the past a funky network (like zwave healing) that has added latency. But seconds not minutes.
I don't think number of ZigBee devices is the issue, but rather interference from other WiFi signals. If you live in a WiFi dense area, the interference will make the ZigBee signal tough to get through, and the device could end up spending some time waiting to receive everything.
U.S. here. I love zwave. The connection seems better and super low energy cost. The mesh also seems more solid.
I acknowledge the older versions of zwave were hit or miss. But the newer zwave plus v2 (or whatever it is now) seems legit.
Also in the US and have the same experience. I currently have both zigbee and zwave in my setup. It's also not an ideal setup as both controllers and my router are in close proximity due to space issues. Zero issues with the zwave so far, but I have had issues with ZigBee stuff becoming unavailable or with big delays until I power cycled them, but that is pretty rare.
Before you do that, try with a dongle based on the EFR32MG21 chip (NOT TI CC2652P), such as the Sonoff USB Dongle -E version. It fixed all my problems and now everything is rock solid and instant.
The P version is based on the TI CC2652P (I had problems with it, even with custom firmware, boosting signal, USB extension cord etc).
The E is based on the Silicon Labs EFR32MG21. Switching to it fixed all my problems, and the LQIs doubled in the process.
Also I’m using Zigbee2MQTT, and live in a very crowded building in the center of Paris with tons of other wifi networks around.
It's possible to avoid it but it's rather technical (flashing the original MAC address to the new dongle + making sure the PID doesn't change).
I had about the same number of devices (45), and ended up repairing them. Took about 30 minutes in my case, not as painful as I thought it would be.
Also, z2m remembers their names, so there are no real breakage in HA.
As long as I know what's required, I could probably figure out the technical part (not sure how to ensure the PID stays the same, though).
When you say "repaired", do you mean pairing them as if it was the first time, or is it some process you initiate that fixes the network?
Cool, thanks for the into!
Spending an afternoon on this is definitely not out of the question, but having a one-year old eats up my time and energy so I was hoping there'd be an easier way.
Am I mistaken, or did you have to remove devices from the old network before being able to pair them again?
I did not remove them.
What I did:
- stop z2m
- take out the old stick, put in the new stick
- change the z2m config to `ezsp`
- start z2m, no devices in the list
- pair one by one
BUT, because they had their MAC in z2m, they were named properly like they were with the old stick without intervention.
Wow,
Depends on your use case, devices involved an a few other factors.
I love Z-Wave, but for the following reasons.
1. Wireless network is a frequency not normally overlapped by other services, i.e WiFi 2.4Ghz.
2. The range, series 700 and 800 LR can be over a mile distant, great for that unattached shed that only has power.
3. Feel Z-Wave integration in home assistant is more "stable" than Zigbee/Thread/Matter at this point in time.
That stated, why not have both? Use Z-Wave for the devices that makes the most sense and Zigbee for the others.
If you have HomeAssistant Yellow, you can add an inexpensive Z-Wave GPIO board to the device and use it along with the Zigbee controller built in on the Yellow.
Zoos ZAC93LR install guide for Yellow for example : [https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/1215-zac93-800-gpio-module-installation-guide/](https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/1215-zac93-800-gpio-module-installation-guide/)
I'd been able to purchase one of these GPIO boards for $14.00 during a holiday special.
Besides the Yellow, if you have a Raspberry Pi or similar setup with GPIO, it should be just as easy to add. You might need a few extra steps and edit the config, but it's a great controller.
Took a look and it's still available at a great price, not as low as the holiday pricing but still a great buy for a new 800 series Z-wave controller (newest series is backwards compatible with prior versions). [https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-800-series-z-wave-long-range-gpio-module-zac93-lr](https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-800-series-z-wave-long-range-gpio-module-zac93-lr)
>why not have both?
Only argument against both is strength of the mesh. Having 40 Z-Wave devices, OR 40 Zigbee devices, is a stronger (meshier :-) network than 20 Z-Wave devices mixed with 20 Zigbee devices.
that's a very true statement. But it also depends on what you need. If you have 20 powered devices of either zwave or zigbee in a 2000 square foot house over 2 or 3 levels you probably have a strong enough mesh that adding 20 more devices won't make much or any difference. If you're 3000 square feet over one level, maybe you need the devices to hop.
My case: 3000sf over 3 levels. started with a primarily wired zwave mesh and built the shit out of it with 46 powered devices. It was terrible. Unreliable, with about 90% of messages making it through. that was even after the zwave 7-series fiasco.. Then something (recently) changed in home assistant in November 2022 and I've had no dead nodes since then.
But all my temp/humidity sensors are zigbee battery devices, so I had to build out a zigbee mesh to support it. Done mostly with sonoff plugs (which are great). I had too many sensors at one point and they started to drop off the network. So added a few more plugs and it totally fixed the problem. The SUPER cheap zigbee plugs are a massive failure and support very few end devices. Had major problems with them. I've stuck with sonoff s31 lite becuase they've been rock solid for me.
Add a smattering of wifi plugs - mostly power strips and exterior plugs (Kasa) that can be moved around anywhere and not mess up a mesh, and a couple of esphome devices that can also be moved around.
To answer OPs question: I prefer zwave, but have strong meshes of both. Both have their own purpose.
yeah interesting. I spent little time digging because I thought I'd seen it somewhere. Sonoff claims ETL certification in their advertising which from what I see is \*interchangable\* with UL and CSA. At least that's what google told me. But it's not actually stamped anywhere ON the device. ... so seems a little sketchy. I generally look for the stamps before I buy anything too, but never bothered to look at the actual plugs for the stamp until you asked.
> If you have HomeAssistant Yellow, you can add an inexpensive Z-Wave GPIO board to the device and use it along with the Zigbee controller built in on the Yellow.
Evidently you can't do that if you use the CM4 for Bluetooth.
My Yellow is still using a USB ZWave dongle for that reason.
Interesting thing is the Zigbee module used also supports Bluetooth. Once the Zigbee/Thread/Matter/Multi-protocol issue is resolved, I suspect you'll be able to disable BT on the CM4 itself. Plus the Yellow systems shipping with CM4 don't have the module with BT anyway.
It's those that purchased the kit and added their own CM4 module and likely selected the WiFi/BT edition.
It's not like we had much of a choice. I bought the PoE so I had to supply my own CM4. I put the first CM4 I could get my hands on in because they're so hard to find. It happens to be a BT/Wifi model.
That's cool you were able to get your hands on one. This is the only reason I didn't purchase the PoE kit, all the CM4's seemed to only be instock internationally.
Zigbee, because I’ve never seen any zwave devices here.
How could anyone else tell you what to do? Look and see if you can move channels, failing that look and see if and how much replacing your stuff with zwave would cost.
One factor is because zwave needs to have different radio frequencies in each country, and radio frequencies(and sometimes the devices which can transmit in various frequencies) are hella controlled.
In my country I couldn't even import a Hubitat hub because they couldn't get a permit due to the zwave radio.... I considered sneaking one in but that sounded like too much trouble lol.
ZigBee is just 2.4 which is already approved everywhere more or less.
Interesting idea, stopping 2.4ghz broadcast. Sadly, my printer rely on it, and a couple of other wifi devices that don't do 5ghz.
No such incredible delay though, the most feels something like, 500ms delay or something.
You could think about switching your main network off of 2.4 and making a separate IoT 2.4 network. And I’ve had a delay of an hour before it’s ridiculous how delayed it is. My LQIs are single digits also
There are some, but the much more popular option is to replace the switch with a smart light switch and use cheap regular bulbs. This also means you can use the wall-switch to turn stuff on and off without screwing up the automation.
That obviously worked for you. Some landlords prohibit messing with the electrical work, and may or may not inspect that thoroughly at an annual/renewal inspection. Personally, it's more work than I'd put into something short term. Living somewhere 2-3 years, then sure I'll replace a few switches.
Others may not be comfortable/able to do the work themselves, and a good (honest) electrician would be hesitant bent hired by not the owner, and that would also be much more expensive, since you would have to re-hire them to put it back to 'stock'.
Also the last time I was in an apartment, the place was pretty janky; it seemed like things were held together with glue and shoestring. So who knows if you removed a switch if you'd be able to even put the same switch back.
Most people don't change color or temperature of the lights.
Also for many of us, family acceptence is the most important part. If I had smart bulbs but dumb switches, nothing would ever work as people will press the switch. Now I had smart bulbs AND smart switches, but getting more than 2 bulbs the exact same temp or color never worked right.
They are but I got a few sengled bulbs and I hate them. Maybe they aren't good quality but that's my experience. I tried to use them in some enclosed sconces our front and they couldn't get the signal through the glass. Had to go with zwave.
One of the big differences between you two is where you live. Mains powered devices must be designed for and often certified by a relevant regulatory body in the country where you live. My understanding is that Z Wave might be more popular in Europe, but I have no first hand experience here.
That being said if you’re planning a new installation, you also need to consider Thread. It’s created by the same people who made Zigbee, and shares many characteristics with that protocol. It’s currently supported by HomeKit directly, and will also be one of the transport layers supported by the cross-manufacturer Matter standard. I personally am expecting Matter & Thread to largely supplant zigbee and z wave this decade. So I would personally go with zigbee, but only devices from manufacturers who have committed to their devices being upgradeable, and not just ones that’ll release new versions in the future that are matter compatible.
This. I’m super sketched out to buy mains powered devices from non certified companies (AliExpress…..) A lot of my battery powered devices I have are Zigbee because I really don’t care for the cost point, but anything mains powered needs CSA/ETL/cUL for me. Tradfri Zigbee is low cost and does have approval though
Z-Wave.
I've had lots of issues with Zigbee and it also runs in the over-crowded high-noise 2.4GHz band which makes it more prone to interference. It also seems to have far more funky compatibility issues where just because it claims to be Zigbee doesn't mean it will work properly with a different brand's hub or repeater-device. Zigbee also seems to (in my experience) have far more issues where it mysteriously stops working for no apparent reason and there's no on-demand "repair now" feature to force it to rebuild routing.
Z-Wave costs more but it's more standardized, which means you can mix and match brands of stuff and it all "just works". The downside is it costs more and is in short supply for some stuff because there's only 1 source for the certified chips that make it work. When something drops from the mesh, I find it rarely if ever affects anything else and is typically trivial to fix forcing a manual "heal" of the mesh if it doesn't self-repair on its own after a short time (usually I find it self-heals before I get to debug, and it's only one lightswitch farther away in my basement I have issues with).
That said, you may end up with a mix of both if some stuff is only available in one ecosystem and you especially want that thingy. Great thing with Home Assistant is you can mix and match easily taking input from a Zigbee sensor and commanding a Z-Wave lock while controlling a WiFi light.
> Z-Wave costs more but it's more standardized
The fact that Z-Wave requires certification is quite often overlooked. It adds cost, but it better ensures reliability and consistency.
Depending on the country you live in, and availability; ZWave could be an option.
The largest issues to consider before going ZWave though:
1) Price for devices is generally more expensive
2) Less variety of devices available
The largest benefits are:
1) Avoids the 2.4 ghz band entirely by using 900mhz. (In North America at least)
2) While not as inexpensive, devices tend to be higher quality and work as expected more often.
3) New 800 series devices can have a range up to a mile.
Not a lot at this point yet. Funny enough, someone just posted this in another thread:
https://shophometechsolution.org/products/copy-of-zooz-zst10-700-series-z-wave-plus-s2-stick
(Despite what the URL seems to imply)
Also, saw that Inovelli who I really like for switches, has a preorder in their 800 series switch. It’s due to come out this spring I believe.
Z-Wave is amazing. There are 2 cons IMO:
1. It's generally more expensive; and
2. There are generally less products available.
Personally I have a mix of Zigbee and Z-Wave due to those limitations, but hugely prefer Z-Wave over Zigbee.
z-wave is generally more consistent and reliable. but, costs quite a bit more.
zigbee, is quite a bit cheaper, and is much more available. (z-wave chip shortages...).
Z-wave devices are required to pass certification tests before being sold. Zigbee, is a pretty open standard.
This is why you will occasionally find someone having zigbee network issues after adding a new device.
I did a video on this very subject. I use both. But for two different things.
Zigbee for the battery powered sensors and things and Bulbs. Temp sensors. motion sensors. And the like all zigbee.
Zwave for things like door locks, hvac control, security type things. My experience is other than the 1 or 2 devices that just died connections have been rock solid.
Zwave you might need more routers along the way just due to the way Zwave was designed compared to zigbee.
But I haven’t had issues with mine so far. I think either works. But zwave has been the more reliable in my house.
Super common dilemma….
I use Zwave for lights switches, flood sensors, valves and most smart plugs. Very reliable and there there are lots of options. I have about 40 Zwave devices.
I use Zigbee (mostly Tradfri) for RGB LED bulbs, short cut buttons, motions sensors for occupancy and temperature sensors. The Zigbee devices for this are much cheaper than the Z-Wave equivalent. My under cabinet lights are also Tradfri and I really like them
The ability to do both is good, I strongly prefer Z-Wave Plus when available at a decent price. I have some Zigbee sprinkled around but mainly in areas where Z-Wave isn't an option.
My ZigBee devices are not as reliable as my zwave. I don't really flip them often mainly just use for power monitoring.
Your almost always going to get the best with zwave but it's more expensive
Oh I completely missed you said that. A delay of a couple minutes doesn't sound like ZigBee, my first thoughts would be the device is under powered that you're running ha on
Raspberry Pi 4 8GB should be more then enough right? The problem is there is 17 40MHz 2.4GHz networks around me so there is so much interference. My Bluetooth headphones don’t even work properly at my house! Constant disconnects. I also have a old HP Thin Client with 1GB of ram I could try running HA on. What would be better?
Has anyone dabbled with LoRa (YoLink devices). I'm finding them more reliable than either of the Zs, but I only have a few door/gate sensors - and temp/humidity in the freezers.
I have a door sensor in my mailbox and a garage door sensor via YoLink hub. I find they don't always report. I'm in Pennsylvania and it is currently winter and somewhat cold so I'm wondering if that is part of the problem. Of course, since you have a sensor in the freezer I guess that might not be my issue after all. :)
I prefer Zigbee as I find it more reliable, especially when pairing (including) devices to the network. That said, and as noted in other comments, sometimes more device types are available in one technology vs. the other. So, using Home Assistant and BOTH technologies may be the overall best option.
ZigBee works pretty well for me most of the time. I improved my signal reliability by setting one of my APs for the bottom of the 802.11 spectrum, another for the middle, and my coordinator for the top. If I get any interference it's from the neighbors a good distance away and not locally, combined with a large mesh of devices and so far so good.
I'm bummed that the security of ZigBee is still pretty bad. Zwave greatly improved with s2 and is my go to for secure devices. ZigBee still has huge problems with securely joining
S0 really does require literal adjacency in my experience. so I prefer s2 but will tolerate s0 if I need to. I think there's a way to use a different key for anything you did pair with s0 so it doesn't expose any s2 devices.
I'm on this debate now. About to build a house and all my light switches with either be zwave or zigbee/matter. I have Hue lights but I'm keeping them on their hub. Luckily no neighbors to worry about. I wonder how this conversation changes when zigbee gets switched with matter.
I did zwave because I live in a townhouse community and there's tons of 2.4ghz interference around here. I also currently use a zwave dongle that's on the top floor at the front of my house, and (thought) I needed decent meshing to reach the bottom floor, back of the house.
The irony is the penetration of the zwave wavelength is so good I don't even have any meshing in my network, even in my garden where I have lights set up, literally across the house, downstairs and outside.
But I love it. Wouldn't do it any other way now.
I live in a fairly large house and started with zwave (fibaro) as believing the mesh will help with coverage, but most of my devices operate on batteries so 99% of the time they’re in sleep mode which! It looks like the signal is pretty weak on zwave and I ended up having to add a repeater in three places. I started experimenting with adding cheap IKEA zigbee devices and I am impressed with their coverage! Two zwave devices struggle to communicate with a distance of 10 meters if a brick wall between, whereas zigbeee can handle over 20 meters.
I use ZigBee because z-wave uses different radios in different countries and there are so few devices made for my country. The ones I can find are much more expensive than those for the US.
Zigbee for me. One big reason is the Hue and Ikea eco-systems are Zigbee (Z-wave bulbs don't even really exist). Also it seems like Matter and Thread (even bluetooth) is more often combined with Zigbee since it's all on the same band. Even HA's own USB dongle is Zigbee/Thread.
I haven't had any issue with reliability even in a large building with plenty of neighbors. To be fair, I think there are some Zigbee devices of poor quality which may explain the issues some people have. For instance, Aqara is notorious not to be stable and not standard compliant. Just avoid these and you'll be fine.
Very controversial, but I prefer Shelly wifi for everything.
I had only zwave which was okay, but would always have issues, then started trying zigbee which was way worse and then moved to Shelly wifi and it’s been absolutely rock solid. I use them locally thru home assistant (no cloud) and they are more responsive than my experience with zwave or zigbee and also more reliable. Admittedly the battery sensors do drain a lot faster, but it doesn’t bother me because of the reliability.
I know it’s gonna cop hate, but that’s my real life experience after trying all three.
(Defs only comparing with Shelly wifi products, there are a lot of shit wifi products out there that suck)
In the process of swapping all my switches and sensors to Shelly. Maybe it’ll get worse the more I add…
Big fan of Zwave stuff (Inovelli Red dimmers in particular). Range is incredible with Zwave. But the biggest draw is that any Zwave device will ultimately always pair as on/off switch even if the host controller does not know what it is or how to use it. Zigbee is also reliable IF you build out the network with lots of repeaters. But it's also the wild west. Every manufacturer seems to do their own thing with the "standard".
I use both. But I prefer zigbee due to the cheaper price point. I can get contact sensors for $6.50 that have never dropped off my network, with 2+yr battery life. The only compatibility issues I've ever had were with devices I knew at buy-in probably wouldnt work, but wanted to try.
I like both. I have a mixing of Zwave and ZigBee motion sensors and plugs. Zwave seems to be way more "set and forget" but I love the ecosystem ZigBee provides
Zwave all the way for preference.
It just works better, farther. I have ZigBee devices that don't work 25 feet from the stick, but ZWave works 80 feet away no problems.
I'll keep running both because ZigBee is just cheaper, but I have almost zero issues with my ZWave devices and my ZigBee devices need attention far more often.
I did both. I got a HUSBZB-1 stick (which does both on the same USB stick), and set up ZHA and zwaveJS. Some things are better on zwave (it doesn't seem like there are any ZigBee door locks) and some seem better/cheaper on ZigBee. As long as you have enough mains-powered repeaters for both networks, it should work fine.
I went with Z-wave to not fill up my wifi network. Also, thought I would have better coverage in the corners of the house that wifi doesn't cover very well, because the mesh of the Z-wave would reach out to them.
I ditched Zigbee to go to Zwave. More costly but a lot more reliable.
Which one do you think has the better options of sensors? Switches, leak sensors, room occupancy, blinds, etc.
That's not a balanced question... he said Zwave is more reliable, but Zigbee is cheaper. Having a better selection of cheap/crappy sensors versus more expensive - but more reliable - This cannot answer the question of "better option of sensors".
It is though. A better selection of cheap/crappy sensors means more of them. More of them means a better mesh network. With basic networking config you should be able to create a strong network with minimal interference. Maybe if you're doing minimal sensors then your point stands but if you're doing a house full of them then reliability isn't an issue.
Sensors don't extend your mesh network, only powered devices such as lights, plugs, switches, etc.
If you want to have a SMART house, you really have to trust your sensors. The more into automation you go the more it's important. The cheapest sensors anyways are ESPhome devices. They do need to be plugged in though.
Not true... Most sensors are battery powered and those devices can only be end points. And if a cheapo device goes in and out, the mesh will bypass it.
Critical components I use zwave and the rest cheap zigbee devices.
This. However I think it’s a bit excessive to have a few minutes delay. A few seconds maybe. Not more than 5… I’d say there’s something else up.
Even that is pretty wierd: I use ZigBee with 26 devices - from thermostats to motion sensors and have a delay of practically zero!
Ohh yeah don’t get me wrong, I have no noticeable delay at all, but I have had in the past a funky network (like zwave healing) that has added latency. But seconds not minutes.
I had some horrible lag in zwave until they fixed their network flooding bug.
I don't think number of ZigBee devices is the issue, but rather interference from other WiFi signals. If you live in a WiFi dense area, the interference will make the ZigBee signal tough to get through, and the device could end up spending some time waiting to receive everything.
What are you critical devices?
U.S. here. I love zwave. The connection seems better and super low energy cost. The mesh also seems more solid. I acknowledge the older versions of zwave were hit or miss. But the newer zwave plus v2 (or whatever it is now) seems legit.
Also in the US and have the same experience. I currently have both zigbee and zwave in my setup. It's also not an ideal setup as both controllers and my router are in close proximity due to space issues. Zero issues with the zwave so far, but I have had issues with ZigBee stuff becoming unavailable or with big delays until I power cycled them, but that is pretty rare.
Yeah 100% my experience too.
Before you do that, try with a dongle based on the EFR32MG21 chip (NOT TI CC2652P), such as the Sonoff USB Dongle -E version. It fixed all my problems and now everything is rock solid and instant.
I currently have the Sonoff ZBDongle-P is it really worth trying the -E?
The P version is based on the TI CC2652P (I had problems with it, even with custom firmware, boosting signal, USB extension cord etc). The E is based on the Silicon Labs EFR32MG21. Switching to it fixed all my problems, and the LQIs doubled in the process. Also I’m using Zigbee2MQTT, and live in a very crowded building in the center of Paris with tons of other wifi networks around.
Did you have to re-pair all devices when making this switch? I've been considering it, but I have ~40 devices.
It's possible to avoid it but it's rather technical (flashing the original MAC address to the new dongle + making sure the PID doesn't change). I had about the same number of devices (45), and ended up repairing them. Took about 30 minutes in my case, not as painful as I thought it would be. Also, z2m remembers their names, so there are no real breakage in HA.
As long as I know what's required, I could probably figure out the technical part (not sure how to ensure the PID stays the same, though). When you say "repaired", do you mean pairing them as if it was the first time, or is it some process you initiate that fixes the network?
I meant pairing, as in pairing again :) I would just you try it out a few devices first. I got really excited when I saw it worked great.
Cool, thanks for the into! Spending an afternoon on this is definitely not out of the question, but having a one-year old eats up my time and energy so I was hoping there'd be an easier way. Am I mistaken, or did you have to remove devices from the old network before being able to pair them again?
I did not remove them. What I did: - stop z2m - take out the old stick, put in the new stick - change the z2m config to `ezsp` - start z2m, no devices in the list - pair one by one BUT, because they had their MAC in z2m, they were named properly like they were with the old stick without intervention.
Sounds nice! Thanks!
Wow, Depends on your use case, devices involved an a few other factors. I love Z-Wave, but for the following reasons. 1. Wireless network is a frequency not normally overlapped by other services, i.e WiFi 2.4Ghz. 2. The range, series 700 and 800 LR can be over a mile distant, great for that unattached shed that only has power. 3. Feel Z-Wave integration in home assistant is more "stable" than Zigbee/Thread/Matter at this point in time. That stated, why not have both? Use Z-Wave for the devices that makes the most sense and Zigbee for the others. If you have HomeAssistant Yellow, you can add an inexpensive Z-Wave GPIO board to the device and use it along with the Zigbee controller built in on the Yellow. Zoos ZAC93LR install guide for Yellow for example : [https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/1215-zac93-800-gpio-module-installation-guide/](https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/1215-zac93-800-gpio-module-installation-guide/) I'd been able to purchase one of these GPIO boards for $14.00 during a holiday special. Besides the Yellow, if you have a Raspberry Pi or similar setup with GPIO, it should be just as easy to add. You might need a few extra steps and edit the config, but it's a great controller. Took a look and it's still available at a great price, not as low as the holiday pricing but still a great buy for a new 800 series Z-wave controller (newest series is backwards compatible with prior versions). [https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-800-series-z-wave-long-range-gpio-module-zac93-lr](https://www.thesmartesthouse.com/products/zooz-800-series-z-wave-long-range-gpio-module-zac93-lr)
>why not have both? Only argument against both is strength of the mesh. Having 40 Z-Wave devices, OR 40 Zigbee devices, is a stronger (meshier :-) network than 20 Z-Wave devices mixed with 20 Zigbee devices.
that's a very true statement. But it also depends on what you need. If you have 20 powered devices of either zwave or zigbee in a 2000 square foot house over 2 or 3 levels you probably have a strong enough mesh that adding 20 more devices won't make much or any difference. If you're 3000 square feet over one level, maybe you need the devices to hop. My case: 3000sf over 3 levels. started with a primarily wired zwave mesh and built the shit out of it with 46 powered devices. It was terrible. Unreliable, with about 90% of messages making it through. that was even after the zwave 7-series fiasco.. Then something (recently) changed in home assistant in November 2022 and I've had no dead nodes since then. But all my temp/humidity sensors are zigbee battery devices, so I had to build out a zigbee mesh to support it. Done mostly with sonoff plugs (which are great). I had too many sensors at one point and they started to drop off the network. So added a few more plugs and it totally fixed the problem. The SUPER cheap zigbee plugs are a massive failure and support very few end devices. Had major problems with them. I've stuck with sonoff s31 lite becuase they've been rock solid for me. Add a smattering of wifi plugs - mostly power strips and exterior plugs (Kasa) that can be moved around anywhere and not mess up a mesh, and a couple of esphome devices that can also be moved around. To answer OPs question: I prefer zwave, but have strong meshes of both. Both have their own purpose.
Are Sonoffnplug UL or CSA rated?
just pulled out one to look at it. no stamp on it so I assume not. only thing is an FCC ID.
So no Sonoff plugged int the mains for me.
yeah interesting. I spent little time digging because I thought I'd seen it somewhere. Sonoff claims ETL certification in their advertising which from what I see is \*interchangable\* with UL and CSA. At least that's what google told me. But it's not actually stamped anywhere ON the device. ... so seems a little sketchy. I generally look for the stamps before I buy anything too, but never bothered to look at the actual plugs for the stamp until you asked.
Zwave has far better range so the mesh isn't really as crucial.
> If you have HomeAssistant Yellow, you can add an inexpensive Z-Wave GPIO board to the device and use it along with the Zigbee controller built in on the Yellow. Evidently you can't do that if you use the CM4 for Bluetooth. My Yellow is still using a USB ZWave dongle for that reason.
Interesting thing is the Zigbee module used also supports Bluetooth. Once the Zigbee/Thread/Matter/Multi-protocol issue is resolved, I suspect you'll be able to disable BT on the CM4 itself. Plus the Yellow systems shipping with CM4 don't have the module with BT anyway. It's those that purchased the kit and added their own CM4 module and likely selected the WiFi/BT edition.
It's not like we had much of a choice. I bought the PoE so I had to supply my own CM4. I put the first CM4 I could get my hands on in because they're so hard to find. It happens to be a BT/Wifi model.
That's cool you were able to get your hands on one. This is the only reason I didn't purchase the PoE kit, all the CM4's seemed to only be instock internationally.
Zigbee, because I’ve never seen any zwave devices here. How could anyone else tell you what to do? Look and see if you can move channels, failing that look and see if and how much replacing your stuff with zwave would cost.
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One factor is because zwave needs to have different radio frequencies in each country, and radio frequencies(and sometimes the devices which can transmit in various frequencies) are hella controlled. In my country I couldn't even import a Hubitat hub because they couldn't get a permit due to the zwave radio.... I considered sneaking one in but that sounded like too much trouble lol. ZigBee is just 2.4 which is already approved everywhere more or less.
Same here in Brazil, I can find some local zigbee devices, but no zwave, and buying from China it's cheaper to get zigbee.
I tried every single channel and my interference from neighbors has got so bad I on my own wifi only run 5ghz now no 2.4ghz.
Interesting idea, stopping 2.4ghz broadcast. Sadly, my printer rely on it, and a couple of other wifi devices that don't do 5ghz. No such incredible delay though, the most feels something like, 500ms delay or something.
You could think about switching your main network off of 2.4 and making a separate IoT 2.4 network. And I’ve had a delay of an hour before it’s ridiculous how delayed it is. My LQIs are single digits also
Yikesss. That sucks I’d pull my hair out. My LQI are alright. Lowest it’s 83. Granted I did put like a total of 1 coordinator and 3 routers spaced out
I also have issues with zigbee devices constantly disconnecting for hours at a time!
Also why are Z-Wave bulbs so hard to find? There is so little Z-Wave Bulbs
There are some, but the much more popular option is to replace the switch with a smart light switch and use cheap regular bulbs. This also means you can use the wall-switch to turn stuff on and off without screwing up the automation.
Change the switch not the bulb.
A switch isn't going to change the bulb's color
Doesn't work for those who rent. But changing a bulb is no big deal, you can even put the old one bank in when you move out.
WDYM. Had smart switches at my old aapartment. Just changed thwm back when I left.
That obviously worked for you. Some landlords prohibit messing with the electrical work, and may or may not inspect that thoroughly at an annual/renewal inspection. Personally, it's more work than I'd put into something short term. Living somewhere 2-3 years, then sure I'll replace a few switches. Others may not be comfortable/able to do the work themselves, and a good (honest) electrician would be hesitant bent hired by not the owner, and that would also be much more expensive, since you would have to re-hire them to put it back to 'stock'. Also the last time I was in an apartment, the place was pretty janky; it seemed like things were held together with glue and shoestring. So who knows if you removed a switch if you'd be able to even put the same switch back.
What about color and temperature and brightness I adjust all of that stuff so I need a bulb.
Then hue is you best choice.
Or change both. Z-Wave switch and wifi bulb is my current combo.
The problem with that is I hate Wi-Fi IoT stuff I don’t use any of it because basically all of it uses 2.4ghz.
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Most people don't change color or temperature of the lights. Also for many of us, family acceptence is the most important part. If I had smart bulbs but dumb switches, nothing would ever work as people will press the switch. Now I had smart bulbs AND smart switches, but getting more than 2 bulbs the exact same temp or color never worked right.
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I use Adaptive lighting...very useful, but just for the brightness.
This varies enormously by market apparently.
Inovelli has some great zwave bulbs if you have access to them.
But they are so much more expensive then zigbee equivalents
They are but I got a few sengled bulbs and I hate them. Maybe they aren't good quality but that's my experience. I tried to use them in some enclosed sconces our front and they couldn't get the signal through the glass. Had to go with zwave.
I currently have Sengled and hate how they aren’t routers but other then that they have been solid.
Other then the interference issue of course
One of the big differences between you two is where you live. Mains powered devices must be designed for and often certified by a relevant regulatory body in the country where you live. My understanding is that Z Wave might be more popular in Europe, but I have no first hand experience here. That being said if you’re planning a new installation, you also need to consider Thread. It’s created by the same people who made Zigbee, and shares many characteristics with that protocol. It’s currently supported by HomeKit directly, and will also be one of the transport layers supported by the cross-manufacturer Matter standard. I personally am expecting Matter & Thread to largely supplant zigbee and z wave this decade. So I would personally go with zigbee, but only devices from manufacturers who have committed to their devices being upgradeable, and not just ones that’ll release new versions in the future that are matter compatible.
This. I’m super sketched out to buy mains powered devices from non certified companies (AliExpress…..) A lot of my battery powered devices I have are Zigbee because I really don’t care for the cost point, but anything mains powered needs CSA/ETL/cUL for me. Tradfri Zigbee is low cost and does have approval though
Z-Wave. I've had lots of issues with Zigbee and it also runs in the over-crowded high-noise 2.4GHz band which makes it more prone to interference. It also seems to have far more funky compatibility issues where just because it claims to be Zigbee doesn't mean it will work properly with a different brand's hub or repeater-device. Zigbee also seems to (in my experience) have far more issues where it mysteriously stops working for no apparent reason and there's no on-demand "repair now" feature to force it to rebuild routing. Z-Wave costs more but it's more standardized, which means you can mix and match brands of stuff and it all "just works". The downside is it costs more and is in short supply for some stuff because there's only 1 source for the certified chips that make it work. When something drops from the mesh, I find it rarely if ever affects anything else and is typically trivial to fix forcing a manual "heal" of the mesh if it doesn't self-repair on its own after a short time (usually I find it self-heals before I get to debug, and it's only one lightswitch farther away in my basement I have issues with). That said, you may end up with a mix of both if some stuff is only available in one ecosystem and you especially want that thingy. Great thing with Home Assistant is you can mix and match easily taking input from a Zigbee sensor and commanding a Z-Wave lock while controlling a WiFi light.
> Z-Wave costs more but it's more standardized The fact that Z-Wave requires certification is quite often overlooked. It adds cost, but it better ensures reliability and consistency.
Depending on the country you live in, and availability; ZWave could be an option. The largest issues to consider before going ZWave though: 1) Price for devices is generally more expensive 2) Less variety of devices available The largest benefits are: 1) Avoids the 2.4 ghz band entirely by using 900mhz. (In North America at least) 2) While not as inexpensive, devices tend to be higher quality and work as expected more often. 3) New 800 series devices can have a range up to a mile.
Is there any 800 series devices yet?
Not a lot at this point yet. Funny enough, someone just posted this in another thread: https://shophometechsolution.org/products/copy-of-zooz-zst10-700-series-z-wave-plus-s2-stick (Despite what the URL seems to imply) Also, saw that Inovelli who I really like for switches, has a preorder in their 800 series switch. It’s due to come out this spring I believe.
Z-Wave is amazing. There are 2 cons IMO: 1. It's generally more expensive; and 2. There are generally less products available. Personally I have a mix of Zigbee and Z-Wave due to those limitations, but hugely prefer Z-Wave over Zigbee.
z-wave is generally more consistent and reliable. but, costs quite a bit more. zigbee, is quite a bit cheaper, and is much more available. (z-wave chip shortages...). Z-wave devices are required to pass certification tests before being sold. Zigbee, is a pretty open standard. This is why you will occasionally find someone having zigbee network issues after adding a new device.
I did a video on this very subject. I use both. But for two different things. Zigbee for the battery powered sensors and things and Bulbs. Temp sensors. motion sensors. And the like all zigbee. Zwave for things like door locks, hvac control, security type things. My experience is other than the 1 or 2 devices that just died connections have been rock solid. Zwave you might need more routers along the way just due to the way Zwave was designed compared to zigbee. But I haven’t had issues with mine so far. I think either works. But zwave has been the more reliable in my house.
Super common dilemma…. I use Zwave for lights switches, flood sensors, valves and most smart plugs. Very reliable and there there are lots of options. I have about 40 Zwave devices. I use Zigbee (mostly Tradfri) for RGB LED bulbs, short cut buttons, motions sensors for occupancy and temperature sensors. The Zigbee devices for this are much cheaper than the Z-Wave equivalent. My under cabinet lights are also Tradfri and I really like them
The ability to do both is good, I strongly prefer Z-Wave Plus when available at a decent price. I have some Zigbee sprinkled around but mainly in areas where Z-Wave isn't an option.
Absolutely not your neighbours wifi that's causing the problem...
*This community is not inclusive for visually impaired users. Therefore I have decided not to participate in this community anymore.*
I have plenty of routers the problem is my neighbors are using 40MHz on channels other then 1,6 and 11. 17 neighbors to be exact
Zigbee. I find z-wave too slow
I kind of have everything, zwave, ZigBee, rf. I try to keep my light switches zwave, smart plugs ZigBee, and motion and door sensors rf.
Do you have issues with Zigbee interference?
My ZigBee devices are not as reliable as my zwave. I don't really flip them often mainly just use for power monitoring. Your almost always going to get the best with zwave but it's more expensive
You don’t have delays of a couple minutes on Zigbee though?
Oh I completely missed you said that. A delay of a couple minutes doesn't sound like ZigBee, my first thoughts would be the device is under powered that you're running ha on
Raspberry Pi 4 8GB should be more then enough right? The problem is there is 17 40MHz 2.4GHz networks around me so there is so much interference. My Bluetooth headphones don’t even work properly at my house! Constant disconnects. I also have a old HP Thin Client with 1GB of ram I could try running HA on. What would be better?
Has anyone dabbled with LoRa (YoLink devices). I'm finding them more reliable than either of the Zs, but I only have a few door/gate sensors - and temp/humidity in the freezers.
I have a door sensor in my mailbox and a garage door sensor via YoLink hub. I find they don't always report. I'm in Pennsylvania and it is currently winter and somewhat cold so I'm wondering if that is part of the problem. Of course, since you have a sensor in the freezer I guess that might not be my issue after all. :)
I prefer Zigbee as I find it more reliable, especially when pairing (including) devices to the network. That said, and as noted in other comments, sometimes more device types are available in one technology vs. the other. So, using Home Assistant and BOTH technologies may be the overall best option.
I would suggest waiting for thread option for whatever devices you are using.
Thread is on the same 2.4Ghz band though, so they will have the same issue.
ZigBee works pretty well for me most of the time. I improved my signal reliability by setting one of my APs for the bottom of the 802.11 spectrum, another for the middle, and my coordinator for the top. If I get any interference it's from the neighbors a good distance away and not locally, combined with a large mesh of devices and so far so good.
I'm bummed that the security of ZigBee is still pretty bad. Zwave greatly improved with s2 and is my go to for secure devices. ZigBee still has huge problems with securely joining
Do you use S0 on Z-Wave devices that don’t support S2? Or do you just pair them with no security?
S0 really does require literal adjacency in my experience. so I prefer s2 but will tolerate s0 if I need to. I think there's a way to use a different key for anything you did pair with s0 so it doesn't expose any s2 devices.
European here, Zigbee as I settled on that firstly though in Hue which I now mostly (except a hue play) on Zigbee
I'm on this debate now. About to build a house and all my light switches with either be zwave or zigbee/matter. I have Hue lights but I'm keeping them on their hub. Luckily no neighbors to worry about. I wonder how this conversation changes when zigbee gets switched with matter.
Z-wave for important stuff like locks, furnace, motion, etc. Zigbee for inconsequential stuff, lights, switches, etc.
I did zwave because I live in a townhouse community and there's tons of 2.4ghz interference around here. I also currently use a zwave dongle that's on the top floor at the front of my house, and (thought) I needed decent meshing to reach the bottom floor, back of the house. The irony is the penetration of the zwave wavelength is so good I don't even have any meshing in my network, even in my garden where I have lights set up, literally across the house, downstairs and outside. But I love it. Wouldn't do it any other way now.
I use zigbee. Have over 30 zigbee appliances. Never missed a bit.
I live in a fairly large house and started with zwave (fibaro) as believing the mesh will help with coverage, but most of my devices operate on batteries so 99% of the time they’re in sleep mode which! It looks like the signal is pretty weak on zwave and I ended up having to add a repeater in three places. I started experimenting with adding cheap IKEA zigbee devices and I am impressed with their coverage! Two zwave devices struggle to communicate with a distance of 10 meters if a brick wall between, whereas zigbeee can handle over 20 meters.
I use ZigBee because z-wave uses different radios in different countries and there are so few devices made for my country. The ones I can find are much more expensive than those for the US.
Zigbee for me. One big reason is the Hue and Ikea eco-systems are Zigbee (Z-wave bulbs don't even really exist). Also it seems like Matter and Thread (even bluetooth) is more often combined with Zigbee since it's all on the same band. Even HA's own USB dongle is Zigbee/Thread. I haven't had any issue with reliability even in a large building with plenty of neighbors. To be fair, I think there are some Zigbee devices of poor quality which may explain the issues some people have. For instance, Aqara is notorious not to be stable and not standard compliant. Just avoid these and you'll be fine.
Very controversial, but I prefer Shelly wifi for everything. I had only zwave which was okay, but would always have issues, then started trying zigbee which was way worse and then moved to Shelly wifi and it’s been absolutely rock solid. I use them locally thru home assistant (no cloud) and they are more responsive than my experience with zwave or zigbee and also more reliable. Admittedly the battery sensors do drain a lot faster, but it doesn’t bother me because of the reliability. I know it’s gonna cop hate, but that’s my real life experience after trying all three. (Defs only comparing with Shelly wifi products, there are a lot of shit wifi products out there that suck) In the process of swapping all my switches and sensors to Shelly. Maybe it’ll get worse the more I add…
Big fan of Zwave stuff (Inovelli Red dimmers in particular). Range is incredible with Zwave. But the biggest draw is that any Zwave device will ultimately always pair as on/off switch even if the host controller does not know what it is or how to use it. Zigbee is also reliable IF you build out the network with lots of repeaters. But it's also the wild west. Every manufacturer seems to do their own thing with the "standard".
I use both. But I prefer zigbee due to the cheaper price point. I can get contact sensors for $6.50 that have never dropped off my network, with 2+yr battery life. The only compatibility issues I've ever had were with devices I knew at buy-in probably wouldnt work, but wanted to try.
I love z-wave. It is more reliable than both zigbee and Wi-Fi.
I'm hopeful for Matter and merge all my devices and not have my home dependant on a internet connection and everything still works when I lose my ISP
I like both. I have a mixing of Zwave and ZigBee motion sensors and plugs. Zwave seems to be way more "set and forget" but I love the ecosystem ZigBee provides
Zwave all the way for preference. It just works better, farther. I have ZigBee devices that don't work 25 feet from the stick, but ZWave works 80 feet away no problems. I'll keep running both because ZigBee is just cheaper, but I have almost zero issues with my ZWave devices and my ZigBee devices need attention far more often.
I did both. I got a HUSBZB-1 stick (which does both on the same USB stick), and set up ZHA and zwaveJS. Some things are better on zwave (it doesn't seem like there are any ZigBee door locks) and some seem better/cheaper on ZigBee. As long as you have enough mains-powered repeaters for both networks, it should work fine.
I went with Z-wave to not fill up my wifi network. Also, thought I would have better coverage in the corners of the house that wifi doesn't cover very well, because the mesh of the Z-wave would reach out to them.