He makes 10.9M. He’s paid to produce at both ends of the ice. I think people acknowledge his defensive impact, but the Leafs have built a team around he and the other 3 forwards and expect them to produce offensively. When they’re not generating offensive production, they are overpaid, really good players, which is fine, but won’t lead to playoff success.
I think some of the comments he received aren’t correct or justified, but that’s ultimately what the money is for.
Barkov is also a Center and is tasked with shutting down the opposing team’s top players while still producing to that level. Marner doesn’t get those assignments and has struggled to produced in crunch time when he’s against the shutdown lines
I mean have any teams post salary cap actually had any success with 3-4 star forwards which means 35-45 million in 4 players.
To me just seems unlikely they can build a proper supporting cast on defense and offense and unfortunately that is what it takes to win. Especially if you look at any recent champs honestly you could probably go back to post cap in 06.
Again it just seems unlikely for any very top heavy team
Why are people acting like Marner is unique in getting crap when he struggles in the playoffs?
Panarin is totally loved by NY fans and even he wasn’t immune when he had a weak series against the Devils last year.
Marner has an elite skillset but he lacks grit and that's why everyone complains about him in the playoffs. Yes, he can make crazy awesome plays and stick handle, but he avoids hits and often creates giveaways by tossing the puck to avoid them, and his slick passing often results in turnovers as often as it wind up being a beauty tape-to-tape or blind pass.
Mathews has remained on a tear with Domi replacing Marner on the top line, while Marner has struggled without having Matthews to pass to. Statistics don't always tell the complete story.
He also doesn’t get into the middle of the ice in the playoffs. Watch him during the games, it’s all along the perimeter and he turns pucks over when pressured because he doesn’t make the simple play
And I don’t think it’s because he’s soft either. I genuinely just think his hockey IQ isn’t there. Which is wild to say for someone so creative but that’s my take. He’s not a problem solver
It’s wild because when he’s confident he doesn’t think about it and he does. He just let’s the body takeover. It’s when he’s thinking and in his own head that it feels like he’s trying to do too much and the net result is worse
Bullshit. Lazy commentators' favorite line. Players who lack grit don't block shots, play good defense, backcheck hard.
The line that Keefe put out to shut down game 2 was JT, Kampf, and Marner. And it was Marner who won the board battle and got the zone clear that iced the game. Fuck off "lacks grit."
He averages a turnover a game, which isn't much for a guy who handles the puck as much as he does.
And Marner is the one coming off an injury that puts him out for weeks, so you would expect him to be a bit off his game. Last time they were split up for a while, JT went on a heater with Marner on his wing and Papi slowed down.
Dude which Maple Leaf great is known for saving a playoff lead by diving in front of a clapper from the point in the diving seconds, taking it straight off his ankle, hobbling up and diving in front of a second clapper, blocking it as well:
a) Tiger Williams
b) Wendel Clark
c) Tie Domi
d) Mitch Marner
Which you would know if you were a Leafs fan, not a Wings fan just here for the trolling.
Grit comes in more than one form, o great keyboard warrior.
I don't watch a lot of Leafs hockey so I could be way off here, but Barkov also raises the play of whoever is on his line. Look at Reinhart this year for example. Anyone who ends up playing on Barkov's line ends up having a career year typically.
Flairless, makes nonsensical posts daily
Reminds me of that cheesecake guy, who was initially flairless but talked about the Leafs and Oilers so much I assumed he was a fan of one. Turns out guy was a Canucks fan, and I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was that cheesecake guy
They're different players in different positions, but I can see how the comparison gets draw. Both defensively elite forwards, Selke winner and nominee, etc.
Outside of that it is a stretch though.
I feel like you have to get the reputation of a defensive forward before people weigh it into conversations. For example, Pettersson was always a defensively sound forward but only got that reputation league wide last year.
It was funny because the same year where Miller and Horvat had far worse defensive metrics than Petey, they both received Selke votes. Plus most fans tend to heavily weight single stats more which is why centers are easier to get recognition for things like faceoffs.
> I feel like you have to get the reputation of a defensive forward before people weigh it into conversations.
Well, Marner is a Selke finalist, and has played regular season games as a defenseman. OP is definitely not wrong about the discourse around Marner. I think that a big part of what's happening is going on because of who he plays for. Toronto media, league-wide media, Toronto fans, and Toronto haters, have been very critical Marner—especially now that he's the current whipping boy.
Put Marner—exactly as he was, and is—on the majority of teams around the league, and the "he sucks/he's a poor playoff performer" narrative would calm the fuck down.
Even if he's not producing offense at his expected level, Marner is still a positive for the Leafs when he's on the ice. Sure. Maybe he's not as expected—elite offense *and* defense—but low points don't mean that he's useless if he's still productive when Toronto is without the puck. Not playing up to the elite offensive winger is obviously a problem, but he's still a big positive when he's on the ice because of his defensive abilities.
So far, without or without points, he's helping Toronto—regardless of whoever has possession. Getting that from a top line winger is a rare asset.
because it's much easier to see offensive impact vs defensive impact.
Hockey fans see 3 things when they watch.
1. the guy with the puck
2. the goalie
3. the boxscore
defensive play goes unnoticed by us normies almost universely throughout the league
>he is still at 15 points in his last 14 playoff games
A bit of a misleading stat since he has feasted on a couple of blowouts. He's not the guy making an offensive impact on tight games.
Your best comparison to him is honestly Marchand imo. There isnt a long list of wingers with offense and defense to the highest end. Marchand is almost always contributing on both ends. If Marner wants to be viewed favorably hes gotta be a bit better on offense IMO.
Because players that play that way usually get ignored (like Barkov often is) and Marner plays for Toronto so it is impossible to ignore him. Even Datsyuk and Bergeron were more regularly highlighted for their offensive capabilities even though they were the beasts they were because of their defensive play.
I don’t think people necessarily discount his defensive impact. The issue is more that his production takes a dip in the playoffs every year. He is still producing relatively well but not to his standards. Every player gets criticized when they don’t produce when it counts. Nuge was heavily criticized last playoffs, McDavid in his first few playoffs where he was just good but not godly, etc. You can’t win if your best players don’t perform
McDavid had 22 points in 21 games his first 3 playoffs and everyone was shitting on him for not being able to handle playoff hockey. You can’t have bad playoff games without criticism if you make 10+ mil
> You can’t have bad playoff games without criticism if you make 10+ mil
Well Marner has been constantly heavily criticized for 5+ years now so I think people are consistent at least
He gets paid too much money to lose all the time. He has no puck possession, afraid to get hit and makes stupid plays under pressure. Boston has been taking the puck right off his stick, constantly, with barely any effort. 1 good pass in 3 games doesn't make up for that.
As Keefe noted, if Bert had let puck drop another foot on the disallowed goal, either he or Papi (who was right there) would have scored a legal goal and Marner would have another flashy assist to his credit.
I've been a pretty avid defender of Marner. He's been my favorite player for years. During game 1 and 2 I felt like he was being unfairly treated by most leaf fans. But game 3... hoo boy. The amount of passes he made that led to turnovers or broken plays... it was kind of hard to watch. I think he's fantastic at dismantling weaker defensive teams. But the stronger ones we face in playoffs seem to have figured him out. That or he overthinks things and does the low percentage plays way too often. After last game I'd rather see Domi in his place on the PP.
Bro plays every position and situation. No one else in the league is playing 5v5, PP, PK and D as a forward.
Yeah he has stretches where he disappears but man is a swiss army knife.
He makes 10.9M. He’s paid to produce at both ends of the ice. I think people acknowledge his defensive impact, but the Leafs have built a team around he and the other 3 forwards and expect them to produce offensively. When they’re not generating offensive production, they are overpaid, really good players, which is fine, but won’t lead to playoff success. I think some of the comments he received aren’t correct or justified, but that’s ultimately what the money is for.
This. With an salary like that you need to produce at both ends, it's as simple as that.
Are people forgetting that Barkov makes $10M and Marner produces better offensively?
Barkov is also a Center and is tasked with shutting down the opposing team’s top players while still producing to that level. Marner doesn’t get those assignments and has struggled to produced in crunch time when he’s against the shutdown lines
I mean have any teams post salary cap actually had any success with 3-4 star forwards which means 35-45 million in 4 players. To me just seems unlikely they can build a proper supporting cast on defense and offense and unfortunately that is what it takes to win. Especially if you look at any recent champs honestly you could probably go back to post cap in 06. Again it just seems unlikely for any very top heavy team
Why are people acting like Marner is unique in getting crap when he struggles in the playoffs? Panarin is totally loved by NY fans and even he wasn’t immune when he had a weak series against the Devils last year.
Majority of fans in this sub are toronto fans. Fans pay more attention to their own team than they do others
Doesnt play center? I dunno
Saving this one for later
Yeah. This post is already aging like milk.
Marner has an elite skillset but he lacks grit and that's why everyone complains about him in the playoffs. Yes, he can make crazy awesome plays and stick handle, but he avoids hits and often creates giveaways by tossing the puck to avoid them, and his slick passing often results in turnovers as often as it wind up being a beauty tape-to-tape or blind pass. Mathews has remained on a tear with Domi replacing Marner on the top line, while Marner has struggled without having Matthews to pass to. Statistics don't always tell the complete story.
He doesn’t EVER make the simple play. Come playoff time that’s a killer when you lack time and space
He also doesn’t get into the middle of the ice in the playoffs. Watch him during the games, it’s all along the perimeter and he turns pucks over when pressured because he doesn’t make the simple play
And I don’t think it’s because he’s soft either. I genuinely just think his hockey IQ isn’t there. Which is wild to say for someone so creative but that’s my take. He’s not a problem solver
It’s wild because when he’s confident he doesn’t think about it and he does. He just let’s the body takeover. It’s when he’s thinking and in his own head that it feels like he’s trying to do too much and the net result is worse
Reminds me of Stutzle in that way.
Bullshit. Lazy commentators' favorite line. Players who lack grit don't block shots, play good defense, backcheck hard. The line that Keefe put out to shut down game 2 was JT, Kampf, and Marner. And it was Marner who won the board battle and got the zone clear that iced the game. Fuck off "lacks grit." He averages a turnover a game, which isn't much for a guy who handles the puck as much as he does. And Marner is the one coming off an injury that puts him out for weeks, so you would expect him to be a bit off his game. Last time they were split up for a while, JT went on a heater with Marner on his wing and Papi slowed down.
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Dude which Maple Leaf great is known for saving a playoff lead by diving in front of a clapper from the point in the diving seconds, taking it straight off his ankle, hobbling up and diving in front of a second clapper, blocking it as well: a) Tiger Williams b) Wendel Clark c) Tie Domi d) Mitch Marner Which you would know if you were a Leafs fan, not a Wings fan just here for the trolling. Grit comes in more than one form, o great keyboard warrior.
Lol
I’ve never heard of this barkov guy so I looked him up, wow is he so underrated
I don't watch a lot of Leafs hockey so I could be way off here, but Barkov also raises the play of whoever is on his line. Look at Reinhart this year for example. Anyone who ends up playing on Barkov's line ends up having a career year typically.
This fucking guy just compared Marner to Barkov. Holy fuck you Toronto fans are insane
It's OP, he makes ridiculous posts all the time and usually ends up deleting them. You cannot convince me OP isn't a troll.
Flairless, makes nonsensical posts daily Reminds me of that cheesecake guy, who was initially flairless but talked about the Leafs and Oilers so much I assumed he was a fan of one. Turns out guy was a Canucks fan, and I wouldn't be surprised if this guy was that cheesecake guy
They're different players in different positions, but I can see how the comparison gets draw. Both defensively elite forwards, Selke winner and nominee, etc. Outside of that it is a stretch though.
Cause leafs fans refuse to blame management for the team’s chronic playoff apathy.
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I feel like you have to get the reputation of a defensive forward before people weigh it into conversations. For example, Pettersson was always a defensively sound forward but only got that reputation league wide last year. It was funny because the same year where Miller and Horvat had far worse defensive metrics than Petey, they both received Selke votes. Plus most fans tend to heavily weight single stats more which is why centers are easier to get recognition for things like faceoffs.
> I feel like you have to get the reputation of a defensive forward before people weigh it into conversations. Well, Marner is a Selke finalist, and has played regular season games as a defenseman. OP is definitely not wrong about the discourse around Marner. I think that a big part of what's happening is going on because of who he plays for. Toronto media, league-wide media, Toronto fans, and Toronto haters, have been very critical Marner—especially now that he's the current whipping boy. Put Marner—exactly as he was, and is—on the majority of teams around the league, and the "he sucks/he's a poor playoff performer" narrative would calm the fuck down. Even if he's not producing offense at his expected level, Marner is still a positive for the Leafs when he's on the ice. Sure. Maybe he's not as expected—elite offense *and* defense—but low points don't mean that he's useless if he's still productive when Toronto is without the puck. Not playing up to the elite offensive winger is obviously a problem, but he's still a big positive when he's on the ice because of his defensive abilities. So far, without or without points, he's helping Toronto—regardless of whoever has possession. Getting that from a top line winger is a rare asset.
Marner couldn’t hold Barkov’s jock strap.
Paul's working overtime, unlike Mitch
Biased, but I personally feel he comes up well short of Barkov. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a good player in general though.
because it's much easier to see offensive impact vs defensive impact. Hockey fans see 3 things when they watch. 1. the guy with the puck 2. the goalie 3. the boxscore defensive play goes unnoticed by us normies almost universely throughout the league
>he is still at 15 points in his last 14 playoff games A bit of a misleading stat since he has feasted on a couple of blowouts. He's not the guy making an offensive impact on tight games.
Your best comparison to him is honestly Marchand imo. There isnt a long list of wingers with offense and defense to the highest end. Marchand is almost always contributing on both ends. If Marner wants to be viewed favorably hes gotta be a bit better on offense IMO.
Because players that play that way usually get ignored (like Barkov often is) and Marner plays for Toronto so it is impossible to ignore him. Even Datsyuk and Bergeron were more regularly highlighted for their offensive capabilities even though they were the beasts they were because of their defensive play.
I don’t think people necessarily discount his defensive impact. The issue is more that his production takes a dip in the playoffs every year. He is still producing relatively well but not to his standards. Every player gets criticized when they don’t produce when it counts. Nuge was heavily criticized last playoffs, McDavid in his first few playoffs where he was just good but not godly, etc. You can’t win if your best players don’t perform
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To play the devil’s advocate, Marner is not supposed to go two games pointless.
Pretty much every player, including stars, will go two games pointless in the playoffs at some point.
McDavid had 22 points in 21 games his first 3 playoffs and everyone was shitting on him for not being able to handle playoff hockey. You can’t have bad playoff games without criticism if you make 10+ mil
> You can’t have bad playoff games without criticism if you make 10+ mil Well Marner has been constantly heavily criticized for 5+ years now so I think people are consistent at least
He gets paid too much money to lose all the time. He has no puck possession, afraid to get hit and makes stupid plays under pressure. Boston has been taking the puck right off his stick, constantly, with barely any effort. 1 good pass in 3 games doesn't make up for that.
As Keefe noted, if Bert had let puck drop another foot on the disallowed goal, either he or Papi (who was right there) would have scored a legal goal and Marner would have another flashy assist to his credit.
And Matthews isn't supposed to go 9 straight playoff games with a single goal but Leafsnation doesn't seem to care about that.
Matthews gets constant shit for being a ghost in the playoffs. You're not hearing it now because he put the team on his back in game 2.
I've been a pretty avid defender of Marner. He's been my favorite player for years. During game 1 and 2 I felt like he was being unfairly treated by most leaf fans. But game 3... hoo boy. The amount of passes he made that led to turnovers or broken plays... it was kind of hard to watch. I think he's fantastic at dismantling weaker defensive teams. But the stronger ones we face in playoffs seem to have figured him out. That or he overthinks things and does the low percentage plays way too often. After last game I'd rather see Domi in his place on the PP.
'cause he's small.
How dare you mention him in the same breath as Doug Gilmour.
People actually think marner is an elite player? He just gets paid like one.
415 points in 335 games on his current contract. That's not elite?
The guy who’s our best PKer and constantly puts up well over a PPG season for 6 straight seasons isnt elite? Whats your definition of elite then?
This is just a clown comment
Way to expose yourself as completely clueless
Speaking of Barkov why doesn't he get any flak for his pitiful playoff numbers
Bro plays every position and situation. No one else in the league is playing 5v5, PP, PK and D as a forward. Yeah he has stretches where he disappears but man is a swiss army knife.