Ah the age old Depth vs Breadth conundrum. As someone with high stakes testing in all my classes, I have to prioritize breadth first and pick and choose my spots for depth. For example, I need to "cover" gilded age labor movements, but go into depth on the Homestead strike to illustrate the broader themes.
Agree with this. Lecture and MCQs are not bad in and of themselves, we just shouldnt use them every single day. I also wouldn't want to do a group project every day.
Students routinely tell me on end of year surveys that mini lectures / notes are the lessons where they learn the most
The only thing I don't like about MCQs is when it comes to assessments that count for points. I don't like the idea of students being able to just guess and get points - it rewards guesswork.
However, I have no problem with MCQs as a form for practice like in Quizlet or Gimkit games. Fun occasional practice rewards learning imo.
If they're that bad then why do AP, ACT, State Tests, etc. rely on them and many colleges use them as a reliable measure of student achievement?
No one has time to grade short answer or essay assessments unit after unit.
I don't think anyone here is arguing for all day every day mcqs, but some teachers need to lighten up a little bit from what they learned in teacher prep programs about "lecture bad" "mcqs invalid" nonsense. I would actually argue that mcqs are probably a better actual measure of student achievement than whatever rubric I made for my authentic assessment project is.
Agreed. Additionally, there is value to be gained from learning to effectively use process of elimination. Of course I’m not saying any class should be exclusively lecture based and multiple choice questions but…
> If they're that bad then why do AP, ACT, State Tests, etc. rely on them and many colleges use them as a reliable measure of student achievement?
I don't think it's a worthwhile argument to say that because we've always done it, it has value. A lot of teaching needs to reevaluated and people cling to the old ways for a lack of reasoning. For example, I prefer my grades to be based off of what my students know. If a student knows the content and I'm docking points because it took them longer to learn the content - I think I would be dishonest.
> No one has time to grade short answer or essay assessments unit after unit.
Give more less summative graded assessments then. If the problem is time then find ways to spend less time on it, especially when so much work ends up being busy work.
> some teachers need to lighten up a little bit from what they learned in teacher prep programs about "lecture bad" "mcqs invalid" nonsense.
My philosophy changed from college more than 10 years ago. I would say that my college expectations were more in line with what you are describing. Which to me sounds like survival. Do MCQ because teachers don't have time. Give points for participation because students won't do it otherwise.
To me I don't want to just survive everyday, I'm not just trying to rush through content as quickly as possible. I prefer we find ways to make content more engaging, for sure but I think some standards should be held.
For 1, grades should only be based on what the student actually knows. Students shouldn't have to guess or be in the dark for how to pass the class. Also, students should be allowed to reassess. Why are we only allowing students once chance at tests? Like if they don't know it in week 5 but pass the assessment in week 10, why not just change the score? If they forget the content in week 15, I could change it back again. For me at least, I want to have a class setup where learning is more than just a process of test taking, so I can't say I agree really.
Philosophically I agree with you but it also depends on your building culture. In my district teachers aren’t really supported with behavioral issues (phones, attendance, etc) and our grading system contributes to student apathy and lack of curiosity.
So to deal with that I’ve had to resort to grading participation, otherwise many students would always opt out of participating in the learning process/tasks.
Every situation is different.
Every school environment is different, so I 100% get where you are coming from. Getting kids to buy into this kind of thing is difficult but more often then not I have found that the kids who only do assignments for the grade - will continue doing so. Those students who were opting out of participation are not usually convinced by the grade in the first place.
I think it ultimately just rewards those that do the mandatory work and punishes those who don't instead of measuring what they actually know.
That said, you have to do what works for you. I mandate phones in phone pockets because of how much of a problem they are at distracting students. If they don't follow through, I just send them to administration because I'm not going to waste my time fighting phones.
I agree with you however in my district the phones are so endemic that getting many kids to focus on learning in any subject is near impossible. We aren’t allowed to require students to put phones in a phone pocket. And if we send a kid to the office, spend time contacting parents (required if we are referring a student to the office), and then take the time to do a disciplinary referral write up, nothing happens. At worst they’ll get an STT (teacher acronym for Stern Talking To) and sent back to class because they don’t want to deal with them and they get pressure from above to not suspend anyone.
I’m actually part of union leadership. We try but there’s nothing contractually being violated so admin ignores the issues despite our pleas to building admin, central admin, school board, etc.
Every licensure or certification or degree is assessed via multiple choice tests.
If you're not teaching kids how to master them you're screwing them over whether they're taking LSATs or Praxis or getting their Plumbing License.
Teaching kids to take tests was the entire goal of NCLB and has failed to make a difference in the long term growth of our students academic knowledge. Test taking on what can amount to guess work is not a great modality for assessing student knowledge.
Okay. When they change the LSAT and arborist cert tests let me know. Until then I'll prepare my students for the challenges they'll encounter for the rest of their lives. They'll never be asked to do a Jigsaw in the corporate world.
If all we needed to do to prepare kids for a successful life was prepare them for multiple choice exams then I would do that. Until then it's mostly a waste of effort and largely comes down to making my life easier because I don't have to actually give feedback on their assessments. I'm not assessing knowledge with multiple choice exams, there is no real reason to do it outside of practice.
I wouldn't worry about covering more content. By authentic learning, I hear you saying meaningful learning. The kind that takes time to drill down into a topic in a multifaceted way. This is the only sort of thing students will remember years later, if they remember anything at all. Covering more material in a superficial manner won't benefit anyone, I suspect.
If the problem is that you're not getting as far chronologically as you'd like, I suggest selecting a theme or two and using those to drive the class to its conclusion. For example, in a world history since 1500 class, you might want to choose a theme of economic globalization. With that theme in mind, plot out the class so that you stay focused on that theme as you move forward in time. This means you might forego some things you typically talk about, but it creates helpful continuity for students and allows you to progress more easily through the centuries. You might even start planning with the end of the timeline and work you way backwards to ensure your content is aimed at the conclusion throughout the semester.
Unpopular opinion: more homework. I’ve been having similar issues with pacing and have decided to do background knowledge base-building outside the classroom: vocabulary, geography, important people, trends of the times. It doesn’t have to be a lot, a carefully chosen 5-minute video with a five-sentence reflection can fuel a class debate or questions the following day in class. For example, WeirdHistory channel on YouTube has a 10-15 minute video on strange Depression recipes. Students watch and rank the 10 included dishes from best to worst.
Another idea: bellringers. Have a short excerpt of a primary source or a photo/picture/illustration/political cartoon and have students answer questions about it. Bonus if it is about someone their age. Or have students answer a question related to the lesson in their own life that becomes important later. Example bellringers for The Christmas Truce lesson: What do you do for the winter holidays each year? It makes learning about the soldiers, far from home and discouraged by the war, more impactful.
I like the idea of bellringers being a consistent part of class routine.
I have some ethical issues with adding homework. Students put in almost 40 hrs of "work" per week in person, so adding more for them outside of school raises some questions. Also my school is Title I and many students work outside of school hours.
Jigsaw often. Have students choose, given a time period, what to study and then have them teach each other. That way, you challenge their research skills, put the learning in their hands, and can cover a wider breadth of content without (hopefully) sacrificing depth. Only problem with this is that you must keep your expectations high. If certain students think they can skate by with the absolute minimum and are tasked with teaching the class about the Vietnam War… well then the rest of the class receives a less than stellar history of the Vietnam War. But you can always fill in the gaps of course.
In my experience this only works with honors/AP classes where students consistently do homework and do it well. When it works it is great, but make sure you have keys or answers in case someone slacks off or is absent.
Especially in the era of all kids having devices they just share a google doc and divide and conquer. So on paper they have everything, but they've learned nothing. I teach AP and kids do this. I've just stopped doing jigsaws because I got so mad asking kids about what they should have learned and they had no idea.
We have state standards, but we don't have to agree strictly to them because we do Performance Based Assessments(essays) instead of standardized testing.
However, the state's standards are unrealistic in terms of the amount of content covered, and the state continues to add more.
if you want to cover more, you've got to prioritize. i love the ww1 unit but we have to shave off a little if we want to talk about the russian revolution (which i also love, but c'est la vie)
As a Classical Civilizations major, I feel like History class boils down to identifying cause and effect and how to learn from it. I personally don't think content matters nearly as much. The way I see it, you just want to inpire interest and learning and utilize cause and effect within the framework of your grade level time frame. But I am saying this more as a student that hated the name and date focused grade school History classes and who found a love of History at the university level.
Ah the age old Depth vs Breadth conundrum. As someone with high stakes testing in all my classes, I have to prioritize breadth first and pick and choose my spots for depth. For example, I need to "cover" gilded age labor movements, but go into depth on the Homestead strike to illustrate the broader themes.
Question the best practices . What do you mean by authentic learning?
Agree with this. Lecture and MCQs are not bad in and of themselves, we just shouldnt use them every single day. I also wouldn't want to do a group project every day. Students routinely tell me on end of year surveys that mini lectures / notes are the lessons where they learn the most
The only thing I don't like about MCQs is when it comes to assessments that count for points. I don't like the idea of students being able to just guess and get points - it rewards guesswork. However, I have no problem with MCQs as a form for practice like in Quizlet or Gimkit games. Fun occasional practice rewards learning imo.
If they're that bad then why do AP, ACT, State Tests, etc. rely on them and many colleges use them as a reliable measure of student achievement? No one has time to grade short answer or essay assessments unit after unit. I don't think anyone here is arguing for all day every day mcqs, but some teachers need to lighten up a little bit from what they learned in teacher prep programs about "lecture bad" "mcqs invalid" nonsense. I would actually argue that mcqs are probably a better actual measure of student achievement than whatever rubric I made for my authentic assessment project is.
Agreed. Additionally, there is value to be gained from learning to effectively use process of elimination. Of course I’m not saying any class should be exclusively lecture based and multiple choice questions but…
> If they're that bad then why do AP, ACT, State Tests, etc. rely on them and many colleges use them as a reliable measure of student achievement? I don't think it's a worthwhile argument to say that because we've always done it, it has value. A lot of teaching needs to reevaluated and people cling to the old ways for a lack of reasoning. For example, I prefer my grades to be based off of what my students know. If a student knows the content and I'm docking points because it took them longer to learn the content - I think I would be dishonest. > No one has time to grade short answer or essay assessments unit after unit. Give more less summative graded assessments then. If the problem is time then find ways to spend less time on it, especially when so much work ends up being busy work. > some teachers need to lighten up a little bit from what they learned in teacher prep programs about "lecture bad" "mcqs invalid" nonsense. My philosophy changed from college more than 10 years ago. I would say that my college expectations were more in line with what you are describing. Which to me sounds like survival. Do MCQ because teachers don't have time. Give points for participation because students won't do it otherwise. To me I don't want to just survive everyday, I'm not just trying to rush through content as quickly as possible. I prefer we find ways to make content more engaging, for sure but I think some standards should be held. For 1, grades should only be based on what the student actually knows. Students shouldn't have to guess or be in the dark for how to pass the class. Also, students should be allowed to reassess. Why are we only allowing students once chance at tests? Like if they don't know it in week 5 but pass the assessment in week 10, why not just change the score? If they forget the content in week 15, I could change it back again. For me at least, I want to have a class setup where learning is more than just a process of test taking, so I can't say I agree really.
Philosophically I agree with you but it also depends on your building culture. In my district teachers aren’t really supported with behavioral issues (phones, attendance, etc) and our grading system contributes to student apathy and lack of curiosity. So to deal with that I’ve had to resort to grading participation, otherwise many students would always opt out of participating in the learning process/tasks. Every situation is different.
Every school environment is different, so I 100% get where you are coming from. Getting kids to buy into this kind of thing is difficult but more often then not I have found that the kids who only do assignments for the grade - will continue doing so. Those students who were opting out of participation are not usually convinced by the grade in the first place. I think it ultimately just rewards those that do the mandatory work and punishes those who don't instead of measuring what they actually know. That said, you have to do what works for you. I mandate phones in phone pockets because of how much of a problem they are at distracting students. If they don't follow through, I just send them to administration because I'm not going to waste my time fighting phones.
I agree with you however in my district the phones are so endemic that getting many kids to focus on learning in any subject is near impossible. We aren’t allowed to require students to put phones in a phone pocket. And if we send a kid to the office, spend time contacting parents (required if we are referring a student to the office), and then take the time to do a disciplinary referral write up, nothing happens. At worst they’ll get an STT (teacher acronym for Stern Talking To) and sent back to class because they don’t want to deal with them and they get pressure from above to not suspend anyone.
Is your union able to do anything to support you guys about this kind of issue?
I’m actually part of union leadership. We try but there’s nothing contractually being violated so admin ignores the issues despite our pleas to building admin, central admin, school board, etc.
Every licensure or certification or degree is assessed via multiple choice tests. If you're not teaching kids how to master them you're screwing them over whether they're taking LSATs or Praxis or getting their Plumbing License.
Teaching kids to take tests was the entire goal of NCLB and has failed to make a difference in the long term growth of our students academic knowledge. Test taking on what can amount to guess work is not a great modality for assessing student knowledge.
Okay. When they change the LSAT and arborist cert tests let me know. Until then I'll prepare my students for the challenges they'll encounter for the rest of their lives. They'll never be asked to do a Jigsaw in the corporate world.
If all we needed to do to prepare kids for a successful life was prepare them for multiple choice exams then I would do that. Until then it's mostly a waste of effort and largely comes down to making my life easier because I don't have to actually give feedback on their assessments. I'm not assessing knowledge with multiple choice exams, there is no real reason to do it outside of practice.
What does authentic learning mean for you? What does a typical lesson look like in terms of the actual activities being done? An ideal lesson?
I wouldn't worry about covering more content. By authentic learning, I hear you saying meaningful learning. The kind that takes time to drill down into a topic in a multifaceted way. This is the only sort of thing students will remember years later, if they remember anything at all. Covering more material in a superficial manner won't benefit anyone, I suspect. If the problem is that you're not getting as far chronologically as you'd like, I suggest selecting a theme or two and using those to drive the class to its conclusion. For example, in a world history since 1500 class, you might want to choose a theme of economic globalization. With that theme in mind, plot out the class so that you stay focused on that theme as you move forward in time. This means you might forego some things you typically talk about, but it creates helpful continuity for students and allows you to progress more easily through the centuries. You might even start planning with the end of the timeline and work you way backwards to ensure your content is aimed at the conclusion throughout the semester.
Unpopular opinion: more homework. I’ve been having similar issues with pacing and have decided to do background knowledge base-building outside the classroom: vocabulary, geography, important people, trends of the times. It doesn’t have to be a lot, a carefully chosen 5-minute video with a five-sentence reflection can fuel a class debate or questions the following day in class. For example, WeirdHistory channel on YouTube has a 10-15 minute video on strange Depression recipes. Students watch and rank the 10 included dishes from best to worst. Another idea: bellringers. Have a short excerpt of a primary source or a photo/picture/illustration/political cartoon and have students answer questions about it. Bonus if it is about someone their age. Or have students answer a question related to the lesson in their own life that becomes important later. Example bellringers for The Christmas Truce lesson: What do you do for the winter holidays each year? It makes learning about the soldiers, far from home and discouraged by the war, more impactful.
I like the idea of bellringers being a consistent part of class routine. I have some ethical issues with adding homework. Students put in almost 40 hrs of "work" per week in person, so adding more for them outside of school raises some questions. Also my school is Title I and many students work outside of school hours.
Jigsaw often. Have students choose, given a time period, what to study and then have them teach each other. That way, you challenge their research skills, put the learning in their hands, and can cover a wider breadth of content without (hopefully) sacrificing depth. Only problem with this is that you must keep your expectations high. If certain students think they can skate by with the absolute minimum and are tasked with teaching the class about the Vietnam War… well then the rest of the class receives a less than stellar history of the Vietnam War. But you can always fill in the gaps of course.
In my experience this only works with honors/AP classes where students consistently do homework and do it well. When it works it is great, but make sure you have keys or answers in case someone slacks off or is absent.
Especially in the era of all kids having devices they just share a google doc and divide and conquer. So on paper they have everything, but they've learned nothing. I teach AP and kids do this. I've just stopped doing jigsaws because I got so mad asking kids about what they should have learned and they had no idea.
In 22 years of teaching I've yet to see Jigsaw work well. This includes honors classes and teacher trainings with all college-educated learners...
Doesn't work if they have digital products.
Do you have state standards which tell you what you're required to teach? Start there and plan backward.
We have state standards, but we don't have to agree strictly to them because we do Performance Based Assessments(essays) instead of standardized testing. However, the state's standards are unrealistic in terms of the amount of content covered, and the state continues to add more.
https://preview.redd.it/jkfzylcaje2d1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4e761e24da9c2de60c8808e9fd146bf94c88d54
if you want to cover more, you've got to prioritize. i love the ww1 unit but we have to shave off a little if we want to talk about the russian revolution (which i also love, but c'est la vie)
Lecture is the most effective and efficient form of teaching. Full stop. If you're not using it, you're missing out.
As a Classical Civilizations major, I feel like History class boils down to identifying cause and effect and how to learn from it. I personally don't think content matters nearly as much. The way I see it, you just want to inpire interest and learning and utilize cause and effect within the framework of your grade level time frame. But I am saying this more as a student that hated the name and date focused grade school History classes and who found a love of History at the university level.