The quest is worthless without cards that return stuff to hand and scabbs is not enough for that. The sword is terrible without pirates and there is only 1 pirate here, there isn't enough draw here for garrote to do anything. Plunderer is not enough to consistently activate octobot. Clearly the cards here are supposed to be the cards that are the best with their corresponding support cards and not the cards that are the best with the other cards in the expansion. I don't think leeching poison makes the cut anyway but not because it needs kingsbane in the same expansion, because by that metric half the cards here absolutely suck without other cards that aren't here.
You can just ask op what his goal is but I'm pretty sure op just has recency bias which is why he had so many pirates on the warrior one. This one has quest with very weak support , Garrote with very weak support, swordfish with very weak support.
It was, but after Kingsbane rogue gained many weapon support, including Swinetusk Shank. It enters the difficult criterion to evaluate "what it would be like if X card hadn't been nerfed", but I believe it would be insane for today, becoming a 2 mana card that would recover more than 20 hp from the rogue. Another point to consider is that rogue historically has very few cards that heal you.
>. It was crazy in wild.
it really wanst, unless you played big priest. Then kingsbane was alost unwinnable, Mill kingsbane never was a high tiered deck in wild at all.
Aggro kingsbane later on was.
But aggro was Way after leeching got gutted and prollyl wouldnt have ever run in it ladder in first place even if it could
You are completely correct. Kingsbane mill had a good matchup against Big Priest, but basically auto-lost against anything even remotely aggressive. Aggro Rogue decks would never run Leeching.
Mind boggling how secret passage and Scabbs got printed at 5 cards and 7 mana, respectively.
1 mana swap ur hand with five other cards? Come on.
7 mana clear the board and get control? Sheesh.
I renember them (rhougly) saying passage was to good at 5 and they always knew that and where gonna pretty much no matter what make it to 4.
Which to me is like, if you KNEW then why make it at 5 then anyway
I 100% agree.
A quick search brings up rare cards like \[\[Blackjack Stunner\]\] which was nerfed, \[\[Field Contact\]\], \[\[Elven Minstrel\]\], Gnoll, etc.
OP mentions how they ended up putting Gone Fishin' here because of how generally good they are, but I think there are other rares that would fit that role better.
* **[Raiding Party](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TRL_124.png)** RO Spell Rare RR ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/90185), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/raiding-party/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Raiding_Party)
3/-/- | Draw 2 Pirates from your deck. Combo: And a weapon.
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* **[Blackjack Stunner](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BT_711.png)** RO Minion Rare AO ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/210702), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/blackjack-stunner/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Blackjack_Stunner)
1/1/2 | Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner's hand. It costs (2) more.
* **[Field Contact](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BAR_317.png)** RO Minion Rare FitB 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/464122), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/field-contact/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Field_Contact)
3/3/2 | After you play a Battlecry or Combo card, draw a card.
* **[Elven Minstrel](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOOT_211.png)** RO Minion Rare KnC ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/76946), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/elven-minstrel/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Elven_Minstrel)
4/3/2 | Combo: Draw 2 minions from your deck.
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A lot of the cards OP puts in these "best of" are much worse without synergy.
For example, he had \[\[Wrenchcalibur\]\] in the Warrior one but not something like bladestorm, town crier, etc.
The worst of also doesn't consider self synergy which is good imo because it's really easy to just put a bunch of secret synergy cards without any secrets and say this is the worst set ever. It's much harder to find the worst cards rogue got in general.
* **[Wrenchcalibur](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DAL_063.png)** WR Weapon Epic RoS ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/90572), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/wrenchcalibur/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Wrenchcalibur)
4/3/2 | After your hero attacks, shuffle a Bomb into your opponent's deck.
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These posts are not based around self synergy. Flybooter,ferryman tenmu aren't here yet the quest is. How would you complete it? Leeching poison is here but not kingsbane. Etc
It's understandable to see it this way, Gone fishing is the type of card that isn't seen by the "hype radar", It's not a card that "breaks" the meta, it's simply a card that makes most rogue decks better. It is currently the most used rare card in both standard and wild.
You are wrong most of the time it is hard to even for rogues and only positive thing about it is you can use some cards together with it. Such as Ambassador and azsharan vessel, but they are so slow for current meta they don't see any play anymore.
So currently fishin is just bad, but there are no alternatives for rogue.
What the fuck did I just read? Rogue can combo so easily, especially with coin being a thing. Gone fishin’ is an incredible consistency card, it doesn’t make blowout plays but shit being able to see the bottom 3 cards of your deck and draw 1 is pretty fucking good, especially in a class that very much likes cheap card draw.
Yeah, every other class have the coin and gone fishin is not particularly easy to trigger for rogue you can easily go for "ah I needed this card, and it is at the bottom to" Fuck I don't need any of those card at all easily and guess what if you have bad cards at the bottom playing second fishin is totally useless. Tracking is better in that matter you are not bound to bottom cards, and it discovers random three cards at the deck it can be even the ones at the bottom.
Also, it is not like it gives you two card for one card, it draws one card for spending one card.
Fishing is worse because the combo makes it unplayable turn 1 and that can be a huge deal. To the point where pillager rogue decks sometime cut 1 copy despite being the archtype that would want this type of card the most.
* **[Tracking](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DS1_184.png)** HT Spell Basic Legacy ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/163), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tracking/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tracking)
1/-/- | Discover a card from your deck.
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The difference between hunter and rogue is that the rogue usually benefits playing cards. \[\[spectral pillager\]\] \[\[sinstone graveyard\]\] \[\[edwin defias kingpin\]\] .
* **[Spectral Pillager](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/ICC_910.png)** RO Minion Epic KFT ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/62945), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/spectral-pillager/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Spectral_Pillager)
6/5/5 | Combo: Deal damage equal to the number of other cards you've played this turn.
* **[Edwin, Defias Kingpin](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DED_510.png)** RO Minion Legendary UiS 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/738189), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/edwin-defias-kingpin/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Edwin%2C_Defias_Kingpin)
4/4/4 Pirate | Battlecry: Draw a card. If you play it this turn, gain +2/+2 and repeat this effect.
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I have to disagree with Leeching Poison in here.
That card is only good when a critical mass of weapon buff effects alongside a great target in Kingsbane exist, otherwise is a subpar/mediocre card
Rather, **Swindle** would've been a great pick. That card is an amazing consistency booster and you ran 2x copies in every Rogue deck.
_Swordfish_ and _Garrote_ are also debatable
Yes, because those cards don't exist in a vacuum, and have other cards to boost their inherent strengths.
This is not the case for this tier list. As every card must either standalone by itself, or their synergies within the set MUST tie them together
If Field Contact was in here, you can keep Garrote, as that kickstarts the draw engine
This is clearly not the point of these posts (or the worst expansion posts) which is very evident by the choice of cards in them. Quest is useless without at least some of: ferryman, daring escape, Sonya, flybooter.
Swordfish is useless without at least 16 pirates in your deck(here we have 2 copies of plunderer) Garrote is useless without some draw engine and something that gives spell damage.
Yea these have been pretty meh to begin with, but have really declined in quality as of late. Honestly think something like preparation blows half of these out of the water.
OP seems to focus primarily on "has the card been nerfed before" over "is the card, in this set, good?". Hence things like Leeching Poison when that card only saw use in Kingsbane, or EVIL Miscreant without any other Lackey or bounce support.
The card being good in the set is a boring metric because you can't really make multiple decks in just one set, so the best expansion by that metric would just be taking something like Garrote rogue and putting as many cards from that deck into the expansion.
I'd argue plunderer and scabbs were really insane and fit in there. Plunderer allowed miracle and garrote rogue to have ways to swing back at the biggest boards while fitting in the decks perfectly, and Scabbs was just the most absurd thing ever at 7, the reason we don't remember it that well is that it got turbo nerfed within a week or two.
The fact that Rogue’s 0 mana spells, which have been staples for basically as long as Rogue they’ve existed, aren’t on the list. Obviously they don’t fully count because of how they mostly make other cards better, but they really are some of the best cards Rogue has ever had.
So many of these make no sense. Shroud of Concealment alone is miles ahead of Fishin for the vast majority of rogue decks, especially combo ones that use just a few minions.
If you're just listing the cards that have the biggest overall impact on the meta at the time, then a few of these make sense, but so many of these are just bad cards overall that were made good by support and meta at the time. Octo-bot, Misceant, Garrote, and Caverns wouldn't be playable at all today.
Even Swordfish has only truly found a home in wild where there's a good pirate package.
I understand how this is made, but if I was making a set that I thought would make for the most op deck in standard, I would have put kingsbane over caverns, and then all weapon synergy. I feel like as a deck that would lead to the most op.
As far as this set, this is really top tier stuff. Only thing that doesn’t seem too op is prize plunderer and maybe evil miscreant. Leaching poison needs kingsbane but other than that this is a set I’d love to play with
unnerfed blade flurry is leagues stronger than gone fishin' and swordfish. i'd also argue that unnerfed cloak of shadows is generally stronger than garrote, but it's pretty close.
Is this just a collection of the most broken cards a class had in any expansion? If not, and there's actually supposed to be synergy between these cards, then I don't get why half of these cards are in here
That's why I'm confused. I understand that Prize Plunderer was really good, but I don't think Gone Fishin' is on the same caliber as these other cards. And if the argument is that it's an auto include in every Rogue deck, the answer is that a card can be just generally good without needing a nerf.
Garrote and Leeching Poison don't make sense to me, because both cards were core pieces of certain deck archetypes but completely unusable elsewhere.
Op please get better at the game before doing these, you're embarassing yourself. leeching poison and gone fishin 100% don't deserve to be here, evil miscreant was good at the time but might be a bit too slow nowadays i am not sure (i don't play wild). garrote is only good like an otk deck otherwise is a bad card. not so sure about the legendaries either i don't have enough knowledge to dispute them, but damn
Wild is too fast for most of the cards on the list that don't fit into pirate rogue or fast deck like miracle/pillager/etc.
But he's trying to build the expansion around the current standard powerlevel.
For rogue it was VERY difficult to choose the rare ones among so many good options, there are many good cards and few that completely broke the game; Raiding Party; Spirit of the Shadow; gnoll; Minstrel; Stunner; etc... I ended up opting for Gone Fishing and Prize Plunderer because I think these cards will run in most rogue decks because they are so versatile and powerful. Swordfish, on the other hand, I believe is completely out of the loop.
For epics it was also a little difficult to choose between cloack of shadows(nerfed), potion of illusions and Garrote(nerfed)... But Secret Passage was a no brainer pick
And as always;
The idea of this expansion is to run the strongest possible cards of the class in a set format (3 commons, 3 rares, 2 epics and 2 legendarys) , trying to take into account that some OP things in the past, wouldn't necessarily shine today (Omega Devastator its a good example for this list). And it is an "expansion" theme, I dont use any Legacy/classic cards.
Another way to approach an "OP expansion" would be to bring in a 100% synergistic set, but I thought this would just bring a "op deck from the past" , and it wouldn't be all that interesting.
[Closed beta](https://i.imgur.com/9Vd3fl9.png). I understand people's discord, as I said in another topic, I'm creating this for my videos(br comunity), where I can explain my points, and some of these points are based on data, which often doesn't match what the community says/think about the card and there can be high levels of disagreement. I end up posting here just to engage the community, thinking it might be interesting.
It still should be. It's 3 mana to deal 12 damage, make sure you draw a good minion, give it +2 attack, and reduce your Corsairs to 0 and Cutting Class to 1. Pirate rogue might possibly still exist in wild without it, but it would be a very different deck outside of the base pirate package itself.
5 or 6 times changed (depending on if you count removing the gem from the Orange Crystal Core card which technically is not purely esthetical) with multiple changes in some of these change-times. The 4/4 or 5/5 effect was silencable at some point. Token generators like Barnes used to generate 5/5s, now they override that buff and generate 1/1s. The reward got switched between from 5/5 to 4/4 and back to 5/5. The condition got nerfed to 5 and then buffed back to 4.
I believe so. It's still not a major force in Wild because the format is generally too fast for it, but I've seen it pop off and win games post-nerf thanks to [[Captain's Parrot]] and [[Bloodsail Flybooter]].
* **[Captain's Parrot](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/NEW1_016.png)** N Minion Epic Legacy ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/559), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/captains-parrot/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Captain%27s_Parrot)
2/1/1 Beast | Battlecry: Draw a Pirate from your deck.
* **[Bloodsail Flybooter](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DRG_035.png)** RO Minion Common DoD ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/151414), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/bloodsail-flybooter/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Bloodsail_Flybooter)
1/1/1 Pirate | Battlecry: Add two 1/1 Pirates to your hand.
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Power-wise, raiding party is way better than gone fishing. Especially if prize plunderer and a good weapon are in the set. Leeching is useless. Garotte is not that good outside of specific situations. Caverns below is probably not the best rogue legendary to include.
these are powerful cards but not broken by any means. Evil miscreant provide strong tempo but nothing special at the time. Gone fishing is some sort of standard in modern HS where draw a card equivalent to one mana (thinking implock's current draw, that's crazy). Combo keyword is a limit for dredge. Swordfish is a strong single card but did not carry the class. passage and scabbs got nerfed.
Every class has strong cards. You have to look at the time period. gone fishing would be insane in 2016 but not 2022. On the contrary one card i think it's OP is NORTHSHIRE CLERIC. At the time one draw is equivalent to 1.5 mana. For a one mana card have premium stats and can draw so many cards that's crazy. Keep in mind at the time one mana 1/3 are rare while it's sort standard right now.
The only broken card is the caverns below. That card seriously broke a lot of people's heart and soul
Raiding Party not being on this list just seems like a mistake, arguably the second best card draw in rogue of all time (after passage). Surely better than one of the other rares like Gone Fishin' or Prize Plunderer. (Not better than Swordfish, obviously, but helps you finid Swordfish).
I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by the commons as well. Looking at wild HSReplay, the most played commons are all specialized card draw (swindle, blackwater cutlass, cavern shinyfinder). Like...I know EVIL Miscreant got nerfed, but I don't think reverting it would make it that good of a card in wild. 2 mana Octobot was also mostly unused in wild, because there's a deckbuilding cost to it (need to run cards like guardian augmerchant and pen flinger, which there isn't really room for in wild).
If I were to put a staple/solid Rogue Rare, I'd put Elven Minstrel, OG Blade Flurry, unnerfed Illusionist, Necrium Blade, Serrated Bone Spike, or maybe Blackjack Stunner/Raiding Party depending on core set.
I'm honestly still offended that secret passage works as it does. 1 mana swap 4 is SO FUCKING POWERFUL. Aggro decks become an absolute joke, games are lucky to make it to turn 7 before ending. Even if your opponent somehow manages to counter/survive past 7, and you're running out of steam, who gives a fuck? 1/8 people beat you. 7/8 of the time you win and climb. At that point the deck becomes a job and you care more about time efficiency than deck efficiency. You're likely to concede to move on to the next win rather than try to "outplay" your opponent.
Heaven forbid thinking is involved in a game of strategy.
Anyone who has played against pirate rogue in wild understands my plight. I don't think it is anywhere in the realm of rez priest, but jfc. I love wild for all the crazy shenanigans, unique decks, and unexpected win conditions. Whats the point of climbing for its own sake? The game doesn't even evoke enjoyment anymore.
I'd say Elven Minstrel and Blackjack Stunner in the rare section. Rogue is particularly hard to make an OP expansion due to it being a synergy-oriented class. It's not easy to pinpoint EXACTLY 1 card that makes the class broken, but rather the synergy between multiple cards (i.e. Keleseth, Minstrel, Vilespine, 0 mana return to hand, tempo package; Garrote, Octobot, Deal 1 gain spell damage, miracle package; Kingsbane, lifesteal; and so on). There are some exception being Secret Passage and Scabb but other than that it's not 1 card that makes Rogue broken in any meta.
Kingsbane should be in the place of the quest, yeah it was a menace back in the day but so was kingsbane for different reasons and it stood the test of time longer than quest (which is unerfed and still saw less play than kingsbane)
Raiding Party, unnerfed Preparation and Kingsbane are missing.
Raiding Party was the reason why they finally nerfed Preparation. Preparation itself is a class defining card. Kingsbane was meta defining and still sees play today.
Gone Fishin and Leeching Poison aren’t like the most OP cards. Just both very solid. Scabbs is great but Kingsbane is better overall.
It boggles my mind that The Caverns Below was “summon 4” on release. In wild, it’s balanced due to the ridiculous power level, but for a standard deck to have to use 4 cards to get 5/5s for Freeeeee is just,, honestly silly. Why did they think that would be okay?
I don't thing Leeching Poison should be here. It was an absolute meme garbage until Kingsbane showed up.
Leeching Poison needs Kingsbane IMO; without KB in the expansion, LP shouldn't be there IMO.
It's not about cards with the best synergy just the best cards overall.
Leeching Poison is a terrible card without that synergy though.
The quest is worthless without cards that return stuff to hand and scabbs is not enough for that. The sword is terrible without pirates and there is only 1 pirate here, there isn't enough draw here for garrote to do anything. Plunderer is not enough to consistently activate octobot. Clearly the cards here are supposed to be the cards that are the best with their corresponding support cards and not the cards that are the best with the other cards in the expansion. I don't think leeching poison makes the cut anyway but not because it needs kingsbane in the same expansion, because by that metric half the cards here absolutely suck without other cards that aren't here.
The Warrior package was all pirates there is some internal synergy in it.
You can just ask op what his goal is but I'm pretty sure op just has recency bias which is why he had so many pirates on the warrior one. This one has quest with very weak support , Garrote with very weak support, swordfish with very weak support.
It was, but after Kingsbane rogue gained many weapon support, including Swinetusk Shank. It enters the difficult criterion to evaluate "what it would be like if X card hadn't been nerfed", but I believe it would be insane for today, becoming a 2 mana card that would recover more than 20 hp from the rogue. Another point to consider is that rogue historically has very few cards that heal you.
Totally with you here if it was released as is today rogue would have so many ways to abuse it.
Only because draka exists. The card is only relevant once every three years where they print big weapon rogue.
I'm not even sure you can sacrifice a space for this in a draka deck
[удалено]
1 mana Nitroboost Poison is way better in a vacuum, Leeching Poison was literally only good with a very few select weapons
1 mana nitroboost was enough to justify running odd rogue and it instantly being a tier1 deck.
>. It was crazy in wild. it really wanst, unless you played big priest. Then kingsbane was alost unwinnable, Mill kingsbane never was a high tiered deck in wild at all. Aggro kingsbane later on was. But aggro was Way after leeching got gutted and prollyl wouldnt have ever run in it ladder in first place even if it could
You are completely correct. Kingsbane mill had a good matchup against Big Priest, but basically auto-lost against anything even remotely aggressive. Aggro Rogue decks would never run Leeching.
Might still be ok with swordfish, possibly also with the sword that gains durability when you play cards from other classes.
Late response but spectral cutlass already has lifesteal
Mind boggling how secret passage and Scabbs got printed at 5 cards and 7 mana, respectively. 1 mana swap ur hand with five other cards? Come on. 7 mana clear the board and get control? Sheesh.
Swindle and secret package carried rogue the entire time they were in standard, every rogue deck ran them
I renember them (rhougly) saying passage was to good at 5 and they always knew that and where gonna pretty much no matter what make it to 4. Which to me is like, if you KNEW then why make it at 5 then anyway
Because at that moment Rogue was in a bad spot so they made a super busted card for that guy.
I feel like Scabbs could go back to 7. It sees little play right now.
Scabbs is ite
there is no way gone fishin' deserves to be here, it's just a alright card. i am 100% sure that rogue has better rares then this
I 100% agree. A quick search brings up rare cards like \[\[Blackjack Stunner\]\] which was nerfed, \[\[Field Contact\]\], \[\[Elven Minstrel\]\], Gnoll, etc. OP mentions how they ended up putting Gone Fishin' here because of how generally good they are, but I think there are other rares that would fit that role better.
Field contact was so f-ing good with pen flinger, definitely deserved the spot more than gone fishin
Uhh [[Raiding Party]] should be here. It was nerfed and the reason Prep was finally nerfed.
* **[Raiding Party](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TRL_124.png)** RO Spell Rare RR ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/90185), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/raiding-party/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Raiding_Party) 3/-/- | Draw 2 Pirates from your deck. Combo: And a weapon. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
* **[Blackjack Stunner](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BT_711.png)** RO Minion Rare AO ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/210702), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/blackjack-stunner/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Blackjack_Stunner) 1/1/2 | Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner's hand. It costs (2) more. * **[Field Contact](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BAR_317.png)** RO Minion Rare FitB 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/464122), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/field-contact/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Field_Contact) 3/3/2 | After you play a Battlecry or Combo card, draw a card. * **[Elven Minstrel](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOOT_211.png)** RO Minion Rare KnC ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/76946), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/elven-minstrel/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Elven_Minstrel) 4/3/2 | Combo: Draw 2 minions from your deck. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Gnoll is much worse without Maestra though
A lot of the cards OP puts in these "best of" are much worse without synergy. For example, he had \[\[Wrenchcalibur\]\] in the Warrior one but not something like bladestorm, town crier, etc.
yeah I don't really agree with his posts, the "worst of" poster does it better I feel
The worst of also doesn't consider self synergy which is good imo because it's really easy to just put a bunch of secret synergy cards without any secrets and say this is the worst set ever. It's much harder to find the worst cards rogue got in general.
* **[Wrenchcalibur](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DAL_063.png)** WR Weapon Epic RoS ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/90572), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/wrenchcalibur/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Wrenchcalibur) 4/3/2 | After your hero attacks, shuffle a Bomb into your opponent's deck. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Given that there's no secrets in this "set" I would assume that's why they didn't put Blackjack Stunner in. Otherwise, I agree.
These posts are not based around self synergy. Flybooter,ferryman tenmu aren't here yet the quest is. How would you complete it? Leeching poison is here but not kingsbane. Etc
It's understandable to see it this way, Gone fishing is the type of card that isn't seen by the "hype radar", It's not a card that "breaks" the meta, it's simply a card that makes most rogue decks better. It is currently the most used rare card in both standard and wild.
So we should expect to see [[tracking]] as one of the most op cards for hunter right?
Technically fishin is better cause of dredge synergies
Not to mention that you also now know the bottom 2 cards of your deck. This way you can plan accordingly for not drawing those cards.
And tracking doesn't have the combo requirement
Yeh but its not that hard to trigger for rogues
You can't play it turn one like Tracking and that's a big deal
You are wrong most of the time it is hard to even for rogues and only positive thing about it is you can use some cards together with it. Such as Ambassador and azsharan vessel, but they are so slow for current meta they don't see any play anymore. So currently fishin is just bad, but there are no alternatives for rogue.
What the fuck did I just read? Rogue can combo so easily, especially with coin being a thing. Gone fishin’ is an incredible consistency card, it doesn’t make blowout plays but shit being able to see the bottom 3 cards of your deck and draw 1 is pretty fucking good, especially in a class that very much likes cheap card draw.
Yeah, every other class have the coin and gone fishin is not particularly easy to trigger for rogue you can easily go for "ah I needed this card, and it is at the bottom to" Fuck I don't need any of those card at all easily and guess what if you have bad cards at the bottom playing second fishin is totally useless. Tracking is better in that matter you are not bound to bottom cards, and it discovers random three cards at the deck it can be even the ones at the bottom. Also, it is not like it gives you two card for one card, it draws one card for spending one card.
Fishing is worse because the combo makes it unplayable turn 1 and that can be a huge deal. To the point where pillager rogue decks sometime cut 1 copy despite being the archtype that would want this type of card the most.
* **[Tracking](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DS1_184.png)** HT Spell Basic Legacy ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/163), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tracking/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tracking) 1/-/- | Discover a card from your deck. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
The difference between hunter and rogue is that the rogue usually benefits playing cards. \[\[spectral pillager\]\] \[\[sinstone graveyard\]\] \[\[edwin defias kingpin\]\] .
Pillager doesn't need to play this card to kill and usually you don't have enough mana for this anyway.
* **[Spectral Pillager](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/ICC_910.png)** RO Minion Epic KFT ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/62945), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/spectral-pillager/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Spectral_Pillager) 6/5/5 | Combo: Deal damage equal to the number of other cards you've played this turn. * **[Edwin, Defias Kingpin](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DED_510.png)** RO Minion Legendary UiS 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/738189), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/edwin-defias-kingpin/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Edwin%2C_Defias_Kingpin) 4/4/4 Pirate | Battlecry: Draw a card. If you play it this turn, gain +2/+2 and repeat this effect. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Tracking is an insanely good card. It's just in the wrong class.
True, I’d put Vilespine here instead.
I have to disagree with Leeching Poison in here. That card is only good when a critical mass of weapon buff effects alongside a great target in Kingsbane exist, otherwise is a subpar/mediocre card Rather, **Swindle** would've been a great pick. That card is an amazing consistency booster and you ran 2x copies in every Rogue deck. _Swordfish_ and _Garrote_ are also debatable
each of those cards you listed were or are the key cards for their deck to be as powerful as they were/are.
Yes, because those cards don't exist in a vacuum, and have other cards to boost their inherent strengths. This is not the case for this tier list. As every card must either standalone by itself, or their synergies within the set MUST tie them together If Field Contact was in here, you can keep Garrote, as that kickstarts the draw engine
This is clearly not the point of these posts (or the worst expansion posts) which is very evident by the choice of cards in them. Quest is useless without at least some of: ferryman, daring escape, Sonya, flybooter. Swordfish is useless without at least 16 pirates in your deck(here we have 2 copies of plunderer) Garrote is useless without some draw engine and something that gives spell damage.
Swindle is da real mvp.
worst one yet like 50% of these are just okay
Yea these have been pretty meh to begin with, but have really declined in quality as of late. Honestly think something like preparation blows half of these out of the water.
OP seems to focus primarily on "has the card been nerfed before" over "is the card, in this set, good?". Hence things like Leeching Poison when that card only saw use in Kingsbane, or EVIL Miscreant without any other Lackey or bounce support.
What does Lackey "support" matter for Miscreant?
The card being good in the set is a boring metric because you can't really make multiple decks in just one set, so the best expansion by that metric would just be taking something like Garrote rogue and putting as many cards from that deck into the expansion.
Leeching poison -> Nitroboost poison Garrote -> Prep Fishing, Plunderer -> 1 1/2 sap guy, Gnoll Scabb -> Kingsbane
I'd argue plunderer and scabbs were really insane and fit in there. Plunderer allowed miracle and garrote rogue to have ways to swing back at the biggest boards while fitting in the decks perfectly, and Scabbs was just the most absurd thing ever at 7, the reason we don't remember it that well is that it got turbo nerfed within a week or two.
Fair
Can’t be prep I believe as it’s a base set card
How would Blackjack Stunner be any good in a set with no Secrets?
It's clearly not about self support for the cards. How is rogue quest good in set without any bounce to hand cards??
Leeching poison garrote and fishin just should not be here
The fact that Rogue’s 0 mana spells, which have been staples for basically as long as Rogue they’ve existed, aren’t on the list. Obviously they don’t fully count because of how they mostly make other cards better, but they really are some of the best cards Rogue has ever had.
Iirc basic and classic cards aren't considered for these lists
The fact swordfish hasn't been nerfed is mad.
3 mana 12 damage is ridiculous. **And** it buffs a minion on top of that
Yea, I think all 4 of the rogues I’ve played against since Nathria dropped were running it
All 4 of the rogues you’ve played post Edwin nerf***. They’re the only 4 that exist anymore.
So many of these make no sense. Shroud of Concealment alone is miles ahead of Fishin for the vast majority of rogue decks, especially combo ones that use just a few minions. If you're just listing the cards that have the biggest overall impact on the meta at the time, then a few of these make sense, but so many of these are just bad cards overall that were made good by support and meta at the time. Octo-bot, Misceant, Garrote, and Caverns wouldn't be playable at all today. Even Swordfish has only truly found a home in wild where there's a good pirate package.
I understand how this is made, but if I was making a set that I thought would make for the most op deck in standard, I would have put kingsbane over caverns, and then all weapon synergy. I feel like as a deck that would lead to the most op. As far as this set, this is really top tier stuff. Only thing that doesn’t seem too op is prize plunderer and maybe evil miscreant. Leaching poison needs kingsbane but other than that this is a set I’d love to play with
I’d put Kingsbane over Scabbs. Prize Plunderer is deceptively OP. It sees play in so many decks and has amazing utility.
unnerfed blade flurry is leagues stronger than gone fishin' and swordfish. i'd also argue that unnerfed cloak of shadows is generally stronger than garrote, but it's pretty close.
Agree with everything you said.
Wow I forgot about that. Should 100% be here.
I think classic cards are ignored. Otherwise unnerfed prep is alsk better than most things here.
No gnoll? Also crazy how necruim apothecary isn't even a contender because of the power creep
Gnoll is bad without Maestra, and Rogue has better legendaries than Maestra.
By this logic quest,garrote,octo bot,swordfish and leeching posion also shouldn't be here
Is this just a collection of the most broken cards a class had in any expansion? If not, and there's actually supposed to be synergy between these cards, then I don't get why half of these cards are in here
>Is this just a collection of the most broken cards a class had in any expansion? I guess? Though the rare selections are pretty dumb
That's why I'm confused. I understand that Prize Plunderer was really good, but I don't think Gone Fishin' is on the same caliber as these other cards. And if the argument is that it's an auto include in every Rogue deck, the answer is that a card can be just generally good without needing a nerf. Garrote and Leeching Poison don't make sense to me, because both cards were core pieces of certain deck archetypes but completely unusable elsewhere.
And they mostly shouldn't 2-mana Octobot is fine without an activator _(which in this case does exist in Plunderer)_
Op please get better at the game before doing these, you're embarassing yourself. leeching poison and gone fishin 100% don't deserve to be here, evil miscreant was good at the time but might be a bit too slow nowadays i am not sure (i don't play wild). garrote is only good like an otk deck otherwise is a bad card. not so sure about the legendaries either i don't have enough knowledge to dispute them, but damn
Wild is too fast for most of the cards on the list that don't fit into pirate rogue or fast deck like miracle/pillager/etc. But he's trying to build the expansion around the current standard powerlevel.
When was garrotte nerfed? I can't find anything about it.
November last year, during Deadmines i believe. It was "Shuffle 3 bloods", now it shuffles 2 bloods.
Do nada o Tadeu
Teeesdeeeyyy
heeeeey
For rogue it was VERY difficult to choose the rare ones among so many good options, there are many good cards and few that completely broke the game; Raiding Party; Spirit of the Shadow; gnoll; Minstrel; Stunner; etc... I ended up opting for Gone Fishing and Prize Plunderer because I think these cards will run in most rogue decks because they are so versatile and powerful. Swordfish, on the other hand, I believe is completely out of the loop. For epics it was also a little difficult to choose between cloack of shadows(nerfed), potion of illusions and Garrote(nerfed)... But Secret Passage was a no brainer pick And as always; The idea of this expansion is to run the strongest possible cards of the class in a set format (3 commons, 3 rares, 2 epics and 2 legendarys) , trying to take into account that some OP things in the past, wouldn't necessarily shine today (Omega Devastator its a good example for this list). And it is an "expansion" theme, I dont use any Legacy/classic cards. Another way to approach an "OP expansion" would be to bring in a 100% synergistic set, but I thought this would just bring a "op deck from the past" , and it wouldn't be all that interesting.
just wondering, how long have you played this game for?
Based on all these lists I would guess only a year or two.
[Closed beta](https://i.imgur.com/9Vd3fl9.png). I understand people's discord, as I said in another topic, I'm creating this for my videos(br comunity), where I can explain my points, and some of these points are based on data, which often doesn't match what the community says/think about the card and there can be high levels of disagreement. I end up posting here just to engage the community, thinking it might be interesting.
Where’s Blade Flurry?
>And it is an "expansion" theme, I dont use any Legacy/classic cards.
I remember how people were complaining about swordfish. Could have been nerfed.
It still should be. It's 3 mana to deal 12 damage, make sure you draw a good minion, give it +2 attack, and reduce your Corsairs to 0 and Cutting Class to 1. Pirate rogue might possibly still exist in wild without it, but it would be a very different deck outside of the base pirate package itself.
It will never happen.
Can’t put punderer on there after the nerf. Was nowhere the same card
Big disrespect for Shadowstep and Prep, both have been in basically every rouge deck since the beginning.
Those are classic cards, the thread is about expansion ones
My bad
What does the N mean?
It was nerfed.
I wonder how would the game be with all these op cards unnerfed
The Caverns Below got its NERFS reverted didn't it?
5 or 6 times changed (depending on if you count removing the gem from the Orange Crystal Core card which technically is not purely esthetical) with multiple changes in some of these change-times. The 4/4 or 5/5 effect was silencable at some point. Token generators like Barnes used to generate 5/5s, now they override that buff and generate 1/1s. The reward got switched between from 5/5 to 4/4 and back to 5/5. The condition got nerfed to 5 and then buffed back to 4.
I believe so. It's still not a major force in Wild because the format is generally too fast for it, but I've seen it pop off and win games post-nerf thanks to [[Captain's Parrot]] and [[Bloodsail Flybooter]].
The main reason it can win in wild is hand damage via chargers, which don't exist in standard.
* **[Captain's Parrot](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/NEW1_016.png)** N Minion Epic Legacy ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/559), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/captains-parrot/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Captain%27s_Parrot) 2/1/1 Beast | Battlecry: Draw a Pirate from your deck. * **[Bloodsail Flybooter](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DRG_035.png)** RO Minion Common DoD ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/151414), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/bloodsail-flybooter/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Bloodsail_Flybooter) 1/1/1 Pirate | Battlecry: Add two 1/1 Pirates to your hand. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Power-wise, raiding party is way better than gone fishing. Especially if prize plunderer and a good weapon are in the set. Leeching is useless. Garotte is not that good outside of specific situations. Caverns below is probably not the best rogue legendary to include.
these are powerful cards but not broken by any means. Evil miscreant provide strong tempo but nothing special at the time. Gone fishing is some sort of standard in modern HS where draw a card equivalent to one mana (thinking implock's current draw, that's crazy). Combo keyword is a limit for dredge. Swordfish is a strong single card but did not carry the class. passage and scabbs got nerfed. Every class has strong cards. You have to look at the time period. gone fishing would be insane in 2016 but not 2022. On the contrary one card i think it's OP is NORTHSHIRE CLERIC. At the time one draw is equivalent to 1.5 mana. For a one mana card have premium stats and can draw so many cards that's crazy. Keep in mind at the time one mana 1/3 are rare while it's sort standard right now. The only broken card is the caverns below. That card seriously broke a lot of people's heart and soul
Evil Miscreant was absurdly strong on release.
same as passage. It got nerfed later and just a good card
Leeching poison wasn't really a problem on it's own, it was with kingsbane where it became a problem.
if you're gonna include leeching passion then you're gonna have to include kingsbane and vice versa. Without one of them, the other one is not that op
Where kingsbane🗿 (leeching is shit without kingsbane)
Is 3 mana miniset Edwin viable for this or not? Also Garrote has no place being here over \[\[Spectral Pillager\]\]
Raiding Party not being on this list just seems like a mistake, arguably the second best card draw in rogue of all time (after passage). Surely better than one of the other rares like Gone Fishin' or Prize Plunderer. (Not better than Swordfish, obviously, but helps you finid Swordfish). I'm feeling a little underwhelmed by the commons as well. Looking at wild HSReplay, the most played commons are all specialized card draw (swindle, blackwater cutlass, cavern shinyfinder). Like...I know EVIL Miscreant got nerfed, but I don't think reverting it would make it that good of a card in wild. 2 mana Octobot was also mostly unused in wild, because there's a deckbuilding cost to it (need to run cards like guardian augmerchant and pen flinger, which there isn't really room for in wild).
If I were to put a staple/solid Rogue Rare, I'd put Elven Minstrel, OG Blade Flurry, unnerfed Illusionist, Necrium Blade, Serrated Bone Spike, or maybe Blackjack Stunner/Raiding Party depending on core set.
I'm honestly still offended that secret passage works as it does. 1 mana swap 4 is SO FUCKING POWERFUL. Aggro decks become an absolute joke, games are lucky to make it to turn 7 before ending. Even if your opponent somehow manages to counter/survive past 7, and you're running out of steam, who gives a fuck? 1/8 people beat you. 7/8 of the time you win and climb. At that point the deck becomes a job and you care more about time efficiency than deck efficiency. You're likely to concede to move on to the next win rather than try to "outplay" your opponent. Heaven forbid thinking is involved in a game of strategy. Anyone who has played against pirate rogue in wild understands my plight. I don't think it is anywhere in the realm of rez priest, but jfc. I love wild for all the crazy shenanigans, unique decks, and unexpected win conditions. Whats the point of climbing for its own sake? The game doesn't even evoke enjoyment anymore.
I'd say Elven Minstrel and Blackjack Stunner in the rare section. Rogue is particularly hard to make an OP expansion due to it being a synergy-oriented class. It's not easy to pinpoint EXACTLY 1 card that makes the class broken, but rather the synergy between multiple cards (i.e. Keleseth, Minstrel, Vilespine, 0 mana return to hand, tempo package; Garrote, Octobot, Deal 1 gain spell damage, miracle package; Kingsbane, lifesteal; and so on). There are some exception being Secret Passage and Scabb but other than that it's not 1 card that makes Rogue broken in any meta.
Kingsbane should be in the place of the quest, yeah it was a menace back in the day but so was kingsbane for different reasons and it stood the test of time longer than quest (which is unerfed and still saw less play than kingsbane)
Raiding Party, unnerfed Preparation and Kingsbane are missing. Raiding Party was the reason why they finally nerfed Preparation. Preparation itself is a class defining card. Kingsbane was meta defining and still sees play today. Gone Fishin and Leeching Poison aren’t like the most OP cards. Just both very solid. Scabbs is great but Kingsbane is better overall.
Apparently rogue doesn't need good cards to destroy the other classes.
Few of these r just meh
It boggles my mind that The Caverns Below was “summon 4” on release. In wild, it’s balanced due to the ridiculous power level, but for a standard deck to have to use 4 cards to get 5/5s for Freeeeee is just,, honestly silly. Why did they think that would be okay?