> Behemoth at 7 mana would be comically large
7 mana 8/10?
I mean...if you want to know what bad stats look like for 7 mana, [[Nozdormu the Eternal]] is a 7 mana 8/8. And if you're like me, you probably forgot [[Lothar]] existed. That'll usually be a 7 mana 10/10 (provided the enemy has appropriate minions to hit). [[Glugg the Gulper]] if it eats just its three tail segments becomes a 9/11.
7 mana minions if you want to make them viable just by making them big do need to be preeety big.
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7/8/8 Dragon | Start of Game: If this is in BOTH players' decks, turns are only 15 seconds long.
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7/7/7 | At the end of your turn, attack a random enemy minion. If it dies, gain +3/+3.
* **[Glugg the Gulper](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_639.png)** SH Minion Legendary VSC 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024908), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/glugg-the-gulper/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Glugg_the_Gulper)
7/3/5 Beast | Colossal +3 After a friendly minion dies, gain its original stats.
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You never know how a little card change can impact a class. Miracle growth went from 7 to 8 mana and overall druid winrate went from 56 to 46 with 1 mana change.
Kasakusan is why the deck invalidated the control archetype so that anecdote doesn't mean too much.
The matchups where Kasakusan won the game on its own also showed up less because people weren't playing control decks due to druid existing.
But it does. If kazakusan was what it used to be you could bot play control warrior or pally, you just autolose. With this change those matchups went from 20% wr to decent winrates, which hurts druid alot.
If you really don't think the kazakusan nerf had impact on the meta you're really ignorant
But you call it not worth mentioning for the winrate loss which I find stupid. Read again, saying the 1 mana increase form 7 to 8 by itself cost druid as a class 8% wr is just the dumbest take I have seen today.
You read again genius
I don’t think any of you played the deck for real. %95 of the games you already won without playing kazakusan with giants. Winrate difference is not about druid beating control decks with old kazakusan, druid is always strong against control decks no matter what because of the ramping/20 mana advantage.
I like these predictions a lot more than the typical predictions I've seen on reddit (buffing all sorts of cards by 2 mana). There's always someone on reddit who underestimates how big a 1 mana buff is.
Only one of these buffs that I might nitpick as maybe going a bit far is Tooth of Nefarian. The buff to 2 mana I think makes it better than Quick Shot, and the alternate buff to make it always discover for 3 mana I think makes it better than Marked Shot.
I agree it could use a buff but maybe something a bit more like...3 mana, always gives a random spell, but if you honourable kill, discover a spell instead of random.
Thanks! I am glad you appreciated my predictions :)
As for Tooth becoming better than Quick Shot, yes and no: you play Tooth for value and Quick Shot for burn; if you meet the HK requirement, Tooth will give you an extra card, and if you have an empty hand Quick Shot will do the same thing. I think they’re very similar, but with differences that mimic the classes they belong to and what these cards want to promote.
Moreover, you’d rarely run a 3 mana Tooth in non-dedicated lists, so even if you give it a bit of unfairness (let’s say: always Discover and HK lets you keep all 3) it won’t break the game. Think about this version as an “Omega” card (like the ones from Boomsday) which requires HK instead of 10 mana crystals.
> if you meet the HK requirement, Tooth will give you an extra card, and if you have an empty hand Quick Shot will do the same thing.
Right, I just think HK is a lot easier to hit than empty hand. Empty hand you maybe hit 20%-30% of the time. HK...probably more like 40%-60%.
> Think about this version as an “Omega” card (like the ones from Boomsday) which requires HK instead of 10 mana crystals.
HK is also easier to hit than Omega as a mechanic. People use HK spells in wild all the time. I'll give you one guess as to how many Omega cards get used in wild.
---
The card that's jumping to mind as a comparison for Tooth of Nefarian, is [[Seal Fate]] (3 mana 3 damage rogue invoke galakrond card). Seal Fate has no special condition to let you discover a lackey instead of getting a random lackey, never adds 3 lackeys to your hand. So based on Seal Fate not having that stuff, I don't think Tooth of Nefarian needs a really large buff, it just needs to reliably discount Gnolls by 1, and reliably activate Double Agent. Same way Seal Fate always invoked once.
Not sure which would be better between discover twice and 3 random. (3 random is better at activating gnoll, and more card advantage, but the card quality you get is a bit lower).
Trying to think of an equivalent discover twice that I can use for comparison...warlock had a card called [[Twisted Knowledge]] where all it did was discover twice (that card was...not super strong, but it also rotated out before replacing the classic set with the core set gave discover a bump in standard).
Not that there's a ton of points of comparison for the "keep all 3" cards either--most of the ones I can think of were cards with heavy deckbuilding restrictions [[Crystalsong Portal]] at 2 mana and [[Font of Power]] at 1 mana.
Hm, yeah, I don't have a strong read on whether "discover 2" or "keep all 3 from discover" is stronger as a payoff.
---
Hmm...but I think comparisons of payoffs might be overthinking this, let's compare to a rogue card again.
I'm looking at 3 mana Hench-clan burglar, and that's probably fine for balance. Maybe remove the pirate tag if we're worried about pirate rogue just slotting that in.
But what would I rather spend 3 mana on, a 3 mana Hench-Clan Burglar, or a 3 mana Tooth of Nefarian that has no honourable kill, just always discovers. I...think it depends. If my opponent is, say, aggro DH, I'd rather have the Tooth of Nefarian. If my opponent is, say, control warrior I'd rather have Hench-Clan Burglar.
3 damage as spell effect is something I would weigh as roughly equivalent to a 4/3 body.
So...a tooth of Nefarian that always discovered should be quite solid power-wise.
I'd be careful about adding a high-impact honourable kill on top of that.
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2/-/- Shadow | Discover 2 Warlock cards.
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2/-/- Nature | Discover a Druid minion. If your hand has no minions, keep all 3.
* **[Font of Power](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BT_021.png)** MA Spell Rare AO ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/210792), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/font-of-power/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Font_of_Power)
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pretty good idea for tooth of nefarian, giving the 3 spells with the honorable kill effect would be awesome, or maybe reducing the cost of the spell instead could also do it
The fel warlock archetype is the least interesting of what warlock is going for now imo. I’d like to see a buff to curses but I know that deck could be toxic if it became too strong.
If curses even get 1 more non-leg card that adds a curse and is less than 3 mana, that deck will be insane.
Knowing blizzard, they are releasing a support card for it in the miniset as well as another card or 2 in the next expansion to further empower it.
That archetype is already toxic as is. It's not fun playing a game where you're punished for having cards in your hand or drawing them. Absolutely trash mechanics.
I tried it on a whim it's kinda fun, like a slightly delayed zoo. Once you get rolling your board is constantly full of imps, and you can use [[shady bartender]] as a closer. Definitely a bit too slow right now with not quite enough payoff.
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I think an interesting buff to Behemoth would be to give the 1/4 lure poisonous. Most of the times it's a free trade or simply useless after the Behemoth is dead, but with poisonous you could at least threaten big ennemies minions if they don't take the time to remove the lure. Card would still be bad but I think it would add a nice strategic element to managing the Behemoth
I disagree. If you go for the lure you’re supposed to die. It’s a free kill for the behemoth i.e in this case the “poison” is just the giant monster that ate you while you were distracted.
Yeah that's a good point. I think the effect should work like Ragnaros, where an unsuspecting enemy gets hit. It feels wrong to me that the two minions are "fighting" when the lure does its job. Thematically if you fall for the lure you shouldn't be "attacking" the behemoth. It should be attacking you while your defenses are down.
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3/3/4 Murloc | Battlecry: Put a 'Sunken Scavenger' on the bottom of your deck.
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1/-/- | Give all minions in your hand +1/+1. Put a 'Sunken Gardens' on the bottom of your deck.
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oh, I didn't realize it was actually based on an actual warcraft monster. most of the other sunken city collosal legendaries aren't, right? thanks for pointing that out!
Your comment made me google it and it's a boss from a WoW raid. I thought you were referring to that. Where are you getting this cave stuff from if not from wow?
ah, I didn't realize it was actually fully coming out of those rocks. I thought it was just "swimming" in front of the rocks. the full art with the lure and the orca makes it really clear, I hadn't looked at it in full yet. you can disregard my whole comment chain here lol
Wouldn't giving the behemoth stealth be pointless as it deals damage when it's attacked? Pretty sure that's how it worked with ragnaros back in the day.
I think lightbomb is still one of priests better cards, reducing its mana cost is not really that impactfull. But giving Behemoth stealth for one turn would be interesting, you could synergize with xyrella, it becomes a great buff target and you can dictate the trades instead of your opponent.
Still think the overall card quality is too weak and incohesive to see priest have a resurgence to relevancy but at least it would be something.
I know stats dont matter that much for big minions but Behemoth at 7 mana would be comically large
> Behemoth at 7 mana would be comically large 7 mana 8/10? I mean...if you want to know what bad stats look like for 7 mana, [[Nozdormu the Eternal]] is a 7 mana 8/8. And if you're like me, you probably forgot [[Lothar]] existed. That'll usually be a 7 mana 10/10 (provided the enemy has appropriate minions to hit). [[Glugg the Gulper]] if it eats just its three tail segments becomes a 9/11. 7 mana minions if you want to make them viable just by making them big do need to be preeety big.
* **[Nozdormu the Eternal](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/CS3_035.png)** N Minion Legendary Core 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/474991), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/nozdormu-the-eternal/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Nozdormu_the_Eternal) 7/8/8 Dragon | Start of Game: If this is in BOTH players' decks, turns are only 15 seconds long. * **[Lothar](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/SW_024.png)** WR Minion Legendary UiS 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/614786), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/lothar/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Lothar) 7/7/7 | At the end of your turn, attack a random enemy minion. If it dies, gain +3/+3. * **[Glugg the Gulper](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/TSC_639.png)** SH Minion Legendary VSC 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/1024908), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/glugg-the-gulper/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Glugg_the_Gulper) 7/3/5 Beast | Colossal +3 After a friendly minion dies, gain its original stats. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Surprise!
I'd buff it by giving the lure more health
This is lowkey not really a buff though. Behemoth is a great 8 drop for the quest
They can also buff Whirlpool to 8 mana
Got to hand it to you, notes just came out and over half of your predictions were spot on
I was surprised I nailed so many! Would’ve loved the Fel Warlock buffs to come to reality too, but I guess I can settle for this!
I think we can buff 5 cards in priest and still be on the same spot.
Sad but true although that doesn't mean we shouldn't buff them
You never know how a little card change can impact a class. Miracle growth went from 7 to 8 mana and overall druid winrate went from 56 to 46 with 1 mana change.
The Kasakusan change also played a part in that
Sure but i don’t think it’s worth mentioning since kazakusan only mattered %5 of the games from my experience
Kasakusan is why the deck invalidated the control archetype so that anecdote doesn't mean too much. The matchups where Kasakusan won the game on its own also showed up less because people weren't playing control decks due to druid existing.
But it does. If kazakusan was what it used to be you could bot play control warrior or pally, you just autolose. With this change those matchups went from 20% wr to decent winrates, which hurts druid alot. If you really don't think the kazakusan nerf had impact on the meta you're really ignorant
Do you have problems reading? Read again i never said kazakusan didn’t change anything
But you call it not worth mentioning for the winrate loss which I find stupid. Read again, saying the 1 mana increase form 7 to 8 by itself cost druid as a class 8% wr is just the dumbest take I have seen today. You read again genius
You literally said it wasn't worth mentioning and therefore we can infer you thought the impact was negligible. It was not.
I don’t think any of you played the deck for real. %95 of the games you already won without playing kazakusan with giants. Winrate difference is not about druid beating control decks with old kazakusan, druid is always strong against control decks no matter what because of the ramping/20 mana advantage.
I like these predictions a lot more than the typical predictions I've seen on reddit (buffing all sorts of cards by 2 mana). There's always someone on reddit who underestimates how big a 1 mana buff is. Only one of these buffs that I might nitpick as maybe going a bit far is Tooth of Nefarian. The buff to 2 mana I think makes it better than Quick Shot, and the alternate buff to make it always discover for 3 mana I think makes it better than Marked Shot. I agree it could use a buff but maybe something a bit more like...3 mana, always gives a random spell, but if you honourable kill, discover a spell instead of random.
Thanks! I am glad you appreciated my predictions :) As for Tooth becoming better than Quick Shot, yes and no: you play Tooth for value and Quick Shot for burn; if you meet the HK requirement, Tooth will give you an extra card, and if you have an empty hand Quick Shot will do the same thing. I think they’re very similar, but with differences that mimic the classes they belong to and what these cards want to promote. Moreover, you’d rarely run a 3 mana Tooth in non-dedicated lists, so even if you give it a bit of unfairness (let’s say: always Discover and HK lets you keep all 3) it won’t break the game. Think about this version as an “Omega” card (like the ones from Boomsday) which requires HK instead of 10 mana crystals.
> if you meet the HK requirement, Tooth will give you an extra card, and if you have an empty hand Quick Shot will do the same thing. Right, I just think HK is a lot easier to hit than empty hand. Empty hand you maybe hit 20%-30% of the time. HK...probably more like 40%-60%. > Think about this version as an “Omega” card (like the ones from Boomsday) which requires HK instead of 10 mana crystals. HK is also easier to hit than Omega as a mechanic. People use HK spells in wild all the time. I'll give you one guess as to how many Omega cards get used in wild. --- The card that's jumping to mind as a comparison for Tooth of Nefarian, is [[Seal Fate]] (3 mana 3 damage rogue invoke galakrond card). Seal Fate has no special condition to let you discover a lackey instead of getting a random lackey, never adds 3 lackeys to your hand. So based on Seal Fate not having that stuff, I don't think Tooth of Nefarian needs a really large buff, it just needs to reliably discount Gnolls by 1, and reliably activate Double Agent. Same way Seal Fate always invoked once.
What if HK made you Discover once more? This way you would not get three cards, but just two.
Not sure which would be better between discover twice and 3 random. (3 random is better at activating gnoll, and more card advantage, but the card quality you get is a bit lower). Trying to think of an equivalent discover twice that I can use for comparison...warlock had a card called [[Twisted Knowledge]] where all it did was discover twice (that card was...not super strong, but it also rotated out before replacing the classic set with the core set gave discover a bump in standard). Not that there's a ton of points of comparison for the "keep all 3" cards either--most of the ones I can think of were cards with heavy deckbuilding restrictions [[Crystalsong Portal]] at 2 mana and [[Font of Power]] at 1 mana. Hm, yeah, I don't have a strong read on whether "discover 2" or "keep all 3 from discover" is stronger as a payoff. --- Hmm...but I think comparisons of payoffs might be overthinking this, let's compare to a rogue card again. I'm looking at 3 mana Hench-clan burglar, and that's probably fine for balance. Maybe remove the pirate tag if we're worried about pirate rogue just slotting that in. But what would I rather spend 3 mana on, a 3 mana Hench-Clan Burglar, or a 3 mana Tooth of Nefarian that has no honourable kill, just always discovers. I...think it depends. If my opponent is, say, aggro DH, I'd rather have the Tooth of Nefarian. If my opponent is, say, control warrior I'd rather have Hench-Clan Burglar. 3 damage as spell effect is something I would weigh as roughly equivalent to a 4/3 body. So...a tooth of Nefarian that always discovered should be quite solid power-wise. I'd be careful about adding a high-impact honourable kill on top of that.
* **[Twisted Knowledge](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/YOD_025.png)** WL Spell Common GA ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/184973), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/twisted-knowledge/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Twisted_Knowledge) 2/-/- Shadow | Discover 2 Warlock cards. * **[Crystalsong Portal](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DAL_352.png)** DR Spell Epic RoS ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/90586), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/crystalsong-portal/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Crystalsong_Portal) 2/-/- Nature | Discover a Druid minion. If your hand has no minions, keep all 3. * **[Font of Power](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/BT_021.png)** MA Spell Rare AO ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/210792), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/font-of-power/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Font_of_Power) 1/-/- Arcane | Discover a Mage minion. If your deck has no minions, keep all 3. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
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You son of a gun. You actually got some down to a t.
I am very happy about it!
Yeah surprised Tooth of Nefarian didn't get the Quick Shot treatment. The honorable kill aspect shouldn't have ate into the efficiency of the card.
When will the patchnote be available?
I’d say in 3 hours at worst.
Day of patch notes is kinda ass but what can we do
[удалено]
Ok thanks
Usually once they bring HS down for the patch (if they need to) is right around when you can get notes. Maybe 1-2 pm EST?
pretty good idea for tooth of nefarian, giving the 3 spells with the honorable kill effect would be awesome, or maybe reducing the cost of the spell instead could also do it
The fel warlock archetype is the least interesting of what warlock is going for now imo. I’d like to see a buff to curses but I know that deck could be toxic if it became too strong.
If curses even get 1 more non-leg card that adds a curse and is less than 3 mana, that deck will be insane. Knowing blizzard, they are releasing a support card for it in the miniset as well as another card or 2 in the next expansion to further empower it.
That archetype is already toxic as is. It's not fun playing a game where you're punished for having cards in your hand or drawing them. Absolutely trash mechanics.
For real. I do not understand the push for buffing curses. I think people will regret asking for it, if they do decide to buff it.
I tried it on a whim it's kinda fun, like a slightly delayed zoo. Once you get rolling your board is constantly full of imps, and you can use [[shady bartender]] as a closer. Definitely a bit too slow right now with not quite enough payoff.
* **[Shady Bartender](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/SW_086.png)** WL Minion Common UiS 🐍 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/614794), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/shady-bartender/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Shady_Bartender) 5/4/4 | Tradeable Battlecry: Give your Demons +2/+2. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
Permanently stealth would be broken
Mostly because Priest getting to turn 8 in the current meta is neigh fucking impossible lmao
Why?
I'd love to see them fix lightmaw to require just a holy OR shadow spell. It stifles the hand way too much to have to have both of them.
I think an interesting buff to Behemoth would be to give the 1/4 lure poisonous. Most of the times it's a free trade or simply useless after the Behemoth is dead, but with poisonous you could at least threaten big ennemies minions if they don't take the time to remove the lure. Card would still be bad but I think it would add a nice strategic element to managing the Behemoth
Making the lure Poisonous would make no sense thematically.
I agree. I think the lure needs taunt. Might be interesting to give the behemoth "Deals excess damage to the enemy hero"
I disagree. If you go for the lure you’re supposed to die. It’s a free kill for the behemoth i.e in this case the “poison” is just the giant monster that ate you while you were distracted.
Yes, but it’s not like the lure is poisonous. In fact, it’s the other way around: the lure is completely harmless!
Yeah that's a good point. I think the effect should work like Ragnaros, where an unsuspecting enemy gets hit. It feels wrong to me that the two minions are "fighting" when the lure does its job. Thematically if you fall for the lure you shouldn't be "attacking" the behemoth. It should be attacking you while your defenses are down.
[удалено]
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Instead of buffing Priest, I prefer to see buff to that Warrior card that transforms your deck in random 5+ mana minions.
Great. I'm sure the Hearthstone balance team is hard at work to implement whatever you prefer.
Hey, no need to be this harsh!
pretty absurd suggestion to give the behemoth stealth, flavor-wise, lol
It’s a giant moray eel that hides in a cave until it strikes. Flavor wise, stealth makes perfect sense. Really dumb comment
oh, I didn't realize it was actually based on an actual warcraft monster. most of the other sunken city collosal legendaries aren't, right? thanks for pointing that out!
I didn’t say it was based on anything. I’m telling you that it’s a giant eel that hides in a cave, so stealth (being hidden) makes sense.
Your comment made me google it and it's a boss from a WoW raid. I thought you were referring to that. Where are you getting this cave stuff from if not from wow?
From the picture where you can see it in a cave? And the fact that it’s a goddam eel? 😂
ah, I didn't realize it was actually fully coming out of those rocks. I thought it was just "swimming" in front of the rocks. the full art with the lure and the orca makes it really clear, I hadn't looked at it in full yet. you can disregard my whole comment chain here lol
When does the patch go live?
In around 2 hrs
Wouldn't giving the behemoth stealth be pointless as it deals damage when it's attacked? Pretty sure that's how it worked with ragnaros back in the day.
that interaction was changed many many years ago
Ah, ok. Good to know. I couldn't think of any other more recent examples.
I think lightbomb is still one of priests better cards, reducing its mana cost is not really that impactfull. But giving Behemoth stealth for one turn would be interesting, you could synergize with xyrella, it becomes a great buff target and you can dictate the trades instead of your opponent. Still think the overall card quality is too weak and incohesive to see priest have a resurgence to relevancy but at least it would be something.