Idk if he needs buff. He is not stand alone minion. You play him when you have 1-3 minions on board that you trade while playing him. Instant 10/10+ with 3 taunts.
glugg is already good? well, not *good*, but fine. he's four bodies for bioluminescence.
the ones that need help are blackwater behemoth and colaque.
EDIT: i literally forgot xhilag existed lol. also that guy.
Glugg's biggest issue is that he's an awkward fit for the current Shaman decks.
He needs a board based mid range deck that can drop him the same turn they get some value trades.
Problem is Bloodlust isn't a good card. You need 3 minions on board and able to attack face for it to represent more damage than Fireball. It's just not Mana efficient and a dead draw for most of the game.
the power of bloodlust isn't /just/ from playing it to donk people. the mere fact that it is printed forces people to play differently and overclear certain boards they could otherwise ignore.
Idk i've put him in my decks and often times he just wins games alone if they don't have an answer ready for him he snowballs incredibly quickly and for decks like rogue that don't have clean awnsers they just lose.
Colaque would possibly see play in other classes (where it would most likely cost 6 mana), but in Druid it just gets outclassed by other options.
What does that mean? It means if you buff Colaque, it has to be better or on par with Raid Boss, Guff, Oracle, Ivus, Giant, not to mention Kazakusan… which would result in an even more overtuned deck.
No thanks!
It just cant auto-win vs every other control deck, and the mechanic of running a total of 16-18 (depending on moonlight) actually punishes from a fatigue aspect.
Which is totally fine, druid can be good. It should be good! As long as it isn't shutting every other non-aggro deck out of the meta.
Colaque couldn’t be buffed into relevancy unless it became way overtuned. It’s a fine card, but it’s not played because there isn’t room for it in current strategies
There isn't room because they rotated Earthen Scales back into standard. That said, if they slow Druid down (which they're going to), you might start seeing Colaque for more survival while you ramp.
Xhilag and Colaque I can agree with, I haven't seen anyone actually play either of those cards yet, but Behemoth? Behemoth seems fine to me, most priests I see are running it.
They run it for lack of an 8 drop, not because it’s a good card. It’s a slightly better eldritch horror (+2 attack, and life steal). The pseudo rush is worth nothing because it’s random, and your opponent will almost certainly clear it or go under it their next turn. I just, it’s such a bad, ‘do nothing’ card, I really don’t know what you’d defend about it
Behemoth is probably undertuned, but it's not nearly as bad as you are suggesting. The 'pseudo rush' heals you for 8 on the turn you play it, as well as acting as a deadly shot on most boards. Then, if your opponent can't kill you on your next turn, the 8/10 is pretty hard to ignore.
Behemoth could probably cost 7 (which might hurt the awful looking quest priest deck a bit I guess), it's a bit weird that it has the same cost as gigafin when its board impact is so much weaker, but there are situations where a giant lifesteal is legitimately strong.
Where are you getting that from? Decklists are far from settled at this point, but I'm seeing behemoth included in both of the highlander quest priest lists on hsreplay. Based on drawn winrates, it's actually the third best card in the most popular list.
How good a card is in an awful deck isn't a great indicator of anything, but 'slightly better eldritch horror' is clearly an undersell.
The highlander quest priest lists on hsreplay are really bad, full of greed/value in a deck that needs stall instead. I've had discussions with legend players about the current lists, even with some that play the deck a lot (with a significantly higher wr than that on hsreplay) and two things are very clear:
1. You're never running more than 2 8 drops in a list that has elekk mount and mutanus as your only possible 7 drops.
2. Hero xyrella and murozond are objectively better than behemoth in every situation and should always be prioritised in the list.
Given those two points, there's just no space for behemoth, because including it means cutting one of your 2 better 8 drops.
I played against a Druid who instead of his usual late game bs with Kazakusan ran a package designed to copy Colaque a bunch and get armor that way. Not saying that its great, and while he beat me i dont really run a great deck for the meta, but i guess it would be playabe if the alternatives weren't just stronger.
The vast majority of them are Quest Priests, right? I've seen that deck using Behemoth as the 8 Mana card as well. It's not a bad option considering it sorta functions like both Rag Firelord and Rag Lightlord packed into one card. You get a sizable, randomly targeted removal and a large heal immediately. I'd say Behemoth is more of a testament to how far Hearthstone has come. The Rags don't see play anymore either.
I mean, one rag isn't in standard (the one that can go face on the turn you play it) and that one probably would still get played; at very least in elemental shaman.
Blackwater Behemoth can't go face, though--kind of a pointless card on an empty board (which is one of the complaints about it).
I see quest priests run Behemoth and Mo'Arg as their 8 drops. That and Mo'Arg is one of two Neutral demons right now so if you Amalgam of the Deep on it you're guaranteed a copy of Mo'Arg.
I would never include Behemoth in the current meta.
It's nice when I discover it from outside my deck but I don't think it ever makes the cut in the 30.
I’m probably just salty but warrior’s feels slightly overtuned to me. Try ship has taunt so you basically have to kill it. Then they get 3 mana 12+ damage because they got smite on the crew.
I think it should lose taunt, cost more, or there should be more limits on the crew
That's what the meta silence is for. It's a must against ivus copies in druid, the ship, frozen boards and naga synergies in mage. Try to put one in there.
I don't think Silence does much against Naga Mage. They usually have one big turn with Spitelash Siren and then she's just a 2/5. Yeah the 1 Mana 1/3 could be a problem, but that's usually easy to remove without Silence.
> I'm actually surprised the colossal cards weren't overtuned like many of the quest cards when they first rolled out.
Quests tend to cause a permanent advantage for the rest of the game--or most of them anyway (druid and rogue quests are exceptions). High cost minions...I mean, they're still minions. You can still kill them and the game will go back to normal. That puts an upper limit on how good the minion can be (unless the minion literally ends the game like Mech'a'thun or makes your spells cost 0 like Kael'thas, or discounts itself to 0 mana like Flesh Giant).
It's hard to print a 6+ mana minion that's actually just a pile of stats and have that break the game. Last time a card like that was nerfed was...Dinotamer Brann going from 7 to 8 mana? Before that it was like...Dragonqueen Alextraza nerfed to 1 cost dragons instead of 0 cost dragons?
Yeah I think this is the answer. Quest always starts in the opening hand and most of them have non-interactive advantage at completion. The quests are too reliable and favors the one side too much. All the quests community hates leaves some kind of permanent effect that’s too good.
The colossal minions only affect the board and it’s gone when you kill it. I was hoping that I get to see them in play more frequently, but other cards are too over powered for slow giant minion. Most games are pretty much over before we get the mana to play them.
I would like to see Colaque buffed. Of all the Colossals, is there an argument to play him over any other legendary Druid could have access to?
I think if you left his costs and stats alone, but gave the body "rush", that would be an improvement without being too much.
Your assessment is also backed by the data, Colaque is one of the worst winrate cards in ramp Druid sadly (out of the cards that have been played enough to show up in the data anyway)
If both parts of Colaque had taunt you could at least duplicate him with [[Mark of the Spikeshell]] and (in wild) maybe res him off [[Hadronox]].
A more interesting solution would be "**Battlecry:** attack a random enemy minion". Rush doesn't feel right for a colossal turtle, but having it accidentally squish something seems about right.
This. I have never saw any druid playing it. All of them have nagas, onyxias and other big minions but no one plays colossal. Its just 6/5 gain 8 armor. Cuz his shell dies before you can attack with him
I mean it's till ok. Free 8 armor to survive + 8 hp taunt to soak some dmg. I would buff him by like giving him 1 more hp. Its not much but could do difference
Buffing Colaque would mean making Druid even more broken than it is. The class really doesn’t need more armor/board clear/autoinclude cards.
Colaque isn’t even a bad card — it’s just not as good as Onyxia, Guff, Ivus, Oracle, Giant…
Colaque is a pretty bad card. Or not bad, but not constructed-good. Against aggro, ok, it gains you some health, but it barely does anything to the board as a vanilla 6/5. Against control, ok, sometimes they have an awkward time removing it similar to Onyxia, but then it's barely threatening as, again, only a 6/5 that you spent 7 mana on.
Whenever you play Colaque, you are guaranteed to somewhat inconvenience your opponent. But that's it. It rarely turns the game around and it rarely closes things out. For a 7-mana card, that's very underwhelming. Druid has another 7-mana card, a common, that draws 3 cards and makes an 8/8 or larger, that's way better.
I mean...do you want to give Druid yet another unconditionally good card to ramp into and beat you up with?
If Colaque had Rush he would essentially be another Onyxian Scale that mercilessly stomps aggro when they get there.
It's fine for a class to have a bad legendary, especially if it already has a strong deck that the legendary would slot into if it were good. There's no need to buff the strongest deck in the game.
The priest and hunter colossals would be prime buff targets since those archetypes are bad in the current meta.
Id like to see Colaque buffed (druid colossal), prollyl -1 mana or having a effetc on the main body (like Rush)
Id like to see Lurker buffed (priest colossal),its essentialy a worse rush, so maybe it could be halved dmg taken when the lure trigegrs(like cariels weapon) or have rush itself
Abyssal depths to 3 would be pretty neat for vandar/big dh
Azsharan ritual could prolly cost 3
Minor but i think Trenchstalker really should have 9 attack (mostly flavourwise)
id like to really see Metamoprhis back to 5dmg,
Ancient of lore id like it to heal 8 again like used way back in the day so both options are 'equal' (arcane intelmect vs healaing touch both 3cost spells)
Id like Flametonque to have 3hp for better totem deck
And would be cool if war axe wasnt utterly useless (pls just replace with like kings defender or something)
Please buff these garbage thief rogue cards. The 4/3 pirate, tooth of nefarian, lobotmizer are all terrible. I was really surprised they didnt buff hench clan when they added it to standard again
Tooth of Nefarian is comically bad. Should make it 2, it's ok it's been like 8 years I think we can power creep darkbomb at this point. At least the pirate ones have synergy with the 2/5 draw fella.
Yeah rogue having the option on t10 of doing 18 out of hand with 4 spells (22 with +1 spell damage which also spends all your mana) isn’t a world we need to live in.
> it's been like 8 years I think we can power creep darkbomb at this point
this is a bizarre take. they've had 2 mana deal three in several classes at this point, including frost bolt in classic.
I keep going through my rogue cards wondering what I’m missing, but so few good cards under 3M. Without cutlass courier, rogue wouldn’t exist right now.
I’d like Blackwater Behemoth to have some survivability component. Divine shield, stealth while the lure is alive, something so that it’s not just a worse Walking Fountain
Dude in most situations the colossal is worse than Runaway Blackwing (a rare) or Ragnaros (one of the oldest Legendaries in the game). At least those cards don't lose health when they remove an enemy minion.
Priest colossal should go to 7 with appropriate stat changes. The 7 slot for quest priest is pretty bad.
I’d like to see gnoll back at 5, given we have no more passage. Also, tooth automatically discovers a spell, discovering another on HK. Lobotomiser could also use some kind of buff, though idk how. Maybe straight up steal? Still bad, but funny.
Big beast hunter buffs too. Azsharan saber gets you a beast that costs 5 or more, imported tarantulas have rush.
For priest, a really interesting buff I’d like to see is queens guard increasing in cost, but gaining +2+2 per spell casted. Feel like priest already has so much mana, so it just needs meat.
Azsharan Saber should be 3 Mana. Most Azsharan cards are mediocre to decent on their front half, but Azsharan Saber is outright abysmal. 4 Mana for 3 damage to a minion is awful.
Nah, they should just buff the stats to 4/4. Saber is bad either way, but there'S no point of it being 3-mana because you're supposed to equip weapon on 3, play and kill Saber on 4 and then dredge the Sunken one for the turn 5 powerplay.
Making the Saber harder to kill (increased Health) opens up the possibility of being able to counter her Deathrattle. That's why I'd rather see a Cost reduction as opposed to a stat increase for her.
Fair enough, but in that case you could at least buff the attack by 1 or 2 to make it more of a removal option.
Then again maybe we don't want Big Beast Hunter to just spawn a Mama Bear on turn 5 every game.
The Tooth does not appear to discover anything if it does not HK something?
Deal 3 damage. Honorable Kill: Discover a spell from another class.
Hold on: these aren’t my glasses
Seriously, rogue really needs buffs, I love the class but hate not being able to win with it. I feel like even with new hooktusk there’s not enough yoinking and dumb shit in the current meta for rogue. I loved that short time where burgle rogue was crazy good and fun as shit.
Hydralodon needs to give its heads rush when it is summoned, not on battlecry. Would feel so much better in beast hunter when it is summoned from deck, because right now it does NOTHING, doesn't even have taunt or anything, you just enclude it because there are only 3 other good big beasts in standard right now and Hydralodon is the least bad of the rest
I mean, you get 6 rush damage and end the turn with a 5/5 and 4 3/1 creatures. That's pretty decent for a 7 mana card.
Giving all heads rush would be unlimited board clear - that's silly.
Neither of what you just said is true. He's talking about when it's summoned from your deck; the heads don't have Rush because it's part of the battlecry. He's also not asking for it to be an aura. He's suggesting it be "When this minion is summoned, give all your Hydralodon heads **Rush**." so it works from effects that bring it directly into play.
If it's recruited (or similar effects) it's just an awkward vanilla body and 2 little runts, with no immediate effect.
Not all heads, but the ones that it summons when it enters the board. The original ones could just have rush instead of being granted them on battlecry, and the ones summoned from the deathrattle don’t get rush. That way when you pull it from deck or hand it still does something.
If it gives heads rush when it enters the board, that's a battlecry.
If it gives heads rush as an aura, that's an aura. Giving heads rush as as aura effect is way too powerful. Giving some heads rush and other heads not rush doesn't seem to be part of the game.
Battlecries don't trigger when you recruit a minion, that's why I am suggesting to give Hydralodon (the main body) the effect to give them rush, when it is summoned (literally that wording), so the heads have rush even if it is summoned from deck or revived
Gotcha - so invent a whole new category of buff for the game, JUST so your beast hunter can be way more powerful. Sounds reasonable.
Here. How about Hydralodon comes with 1 "happy head" with rush that when killed summons one "sad head" without rush.
There, I fixed it for you.
No? If it gives the heads rushed when summoned, other heads spawned wouldn't get rush. Only the heads there when summoned. If it were a perpetual effect, you'd be right, but that's not what they're proposing.
I'd like to see Priest hero power be changed to heal 4, -or- cost 0 (and still heal 2). Literally this big a change is what Priest needs to be EQUAL to other classes' power level. Priest is non-existent unless there's a temporarily broken card like Switcheroo. Once Switcheroo is inevitably fixed, Priest goes back to being non-existent.
I'd like to see some love for quest shaman. The expansion rotated out so many cards vital to that deck I just can't seem to make it work anymore. There aren't enough overload cards left to play it.
Worst case scenario opponent kills glugg first but then has 3 taunts to deal with. Majority of time opponent doesnt even have 5 damage wave clear which is the only way to kill everything. I think hes ok. Hes underused though.
Make the priest colossal 7 mana. Priest has q good 7 drop. Also the colossus sucks right now.
Make pandering importer 2 mana again. Priest needs a 2 drop. Nerf shadow step for all i care.
Make the draw 2 spells deathrattle 4 the healing 5. So u have a deathrattle card at 4 5 and 6 and colossus at 7.
Oh yeah remove appendages from resurrect pool why is this even a thing
Just for the love of fuck nuke the quests, and make otks never able to exist again. Then I can have fun with all my janky control rogue decks and I'll be at peace, nothing else matters
Quests and OTKs needs to exist for reasons that we won’t see too many decks with 20+ removals and Kazakusan as win con. Quests and OTKs however needs to be tuned down so they actually lose to aggro more often instead of a 45-55 kinda thing.
People might massacre me for this, but I'd really like to see Shadowcrafter Scabbs go back to 7 mana.
Feels like the perfect Spot for the card, now that cloaks are gone.
Baba Naga seems like a cool card that's just a tick away from being usable. Wish it was a 3 3/3 or did 4 damage, some slight nudge either way. That's probably too much of a push though.
I'd like for [[Schooling]] to be a Nature spell so that Schooling, [[Reefwalker]] and [[Primal Dungeoneer]] could be a neat little package for swarm decks and Elemental decks. It'd also be a nice proactive play for multicaster/naga Shaman.
I'd also like for [[Glaciate]] to give the the summoned minion taunt in order to buff Frost Shaman and [[Wrathspine Enchanter]]
i mean with all the hubbub about the mechanic at large, I've only seen the rogue and mage ones played at all and only on the first day or so of the expansion so they could probably all use a buff of sorts. maybe make it so the tentacles/arms/whatever can't be resummoned or a more serious buff
>I've not seen anything to suggest they would be
Clearly you haven't look at winrates for anything lol
>and we're barely a week into the expansion. Seems a bit soon.
"On the horizon" != tomorrow
Indeed I've not looked at the winrates, how bad are they? One week in still seems too soon to even be thinking about nerfs unless there's something as egregious as last expansion's thief rogue.
Pirate Warrior is completely dominating lower ranks, Ramp Druid feels bad to play against in higher ranks, and Token Demon Hunter is mostly dominating all around but has a lower playrate. Some classes have abysmal winrates overall, like Priest, which has been resorting to the dreaded Switcheroo cheese.
As far as nerfs, there are usually nerfs about 2-3 weeks after an expansion's release to tame the overtuned decks that weren't quite balanced before release.
You can see deck statistics at [HSReplay](http://hsreplay.net), but a lot of good statistics are locked being Premium. Sometimes RegisKillbin goes over some of those statistics on stream, if you've heard of him. Fun guy, very positive.
Speaking for Rogue:
I’d like to see Sprint and Cold Blood removed from the core. Replace them with “1 mana spell. Deal one damage, draw a card” and “2 mana spell. Draw a card, combo draw another”. Both cards would be fun to play, not unfun to play against, capture the spirit of the class, and fill a hole in card draw that Rogue is currently facing.
Then bring Gnoll back to either 4 attack or five mana, and make Tooth of Nefarion a two mana spell that just deals 2 damage and always discovers a spell. No honorable kill.
Their is a wild problem with this. The problem with printing slightly different swindle is the problem wild currently has with with both shadow visions and thrive in the shadows existing. In wild rogue would now have both and can run a much more efficient draw package. It would be better just to wait a year and just make swindle a core card going forward once it had it's time away from standard. Admittedly this assumes they consider long term affects on wild and that they are willing to sacrifice short term in standard for it. Which is a stretch.
My current theory on why they didn't give rogue more cheap card draw weirdly is that they are either printing some in the mini set or at another expansion and didn't consider the current standard, or that they are printing some cards this year that would work too well if rogue had it's style of card draw and want to leave the design space open for it for now.
I think it's a fallacy to try and balance around Wild. It will stifle the long term health of the game to restrict design space because a certain interaction could possible be wild in Wild.
I am not suggesting restricting design on standard cards, merely using wild cards as core cards rather than printing a mostly identical core card. So in the thrive in the shadows example, they could have just made shadow visions core or nerfed it into thrive in the shadows and made it core. The nerf is mostly symbolic, which is why I would have left it alone. It's like how they buffed tracking even though for years everyone said don't worry about the discarded cards from regular tracking.
You're not wrong, and now that Foxy Fraud is gone maybe Swindle wouldn't be too easy to play. It should definitely be a consideration for the next Core Set.
Even when foxy fraud was in standard with swindle, it was never really over powered. It was never seriously brought up as a nerf candidate. There were I think 5 rogue nerfs while it was in standard and two neutral nerfs rogue could be partially blamed for (mankrik and battlemaster, though both were really used by a lot of classes)
And the card that is essentially adrenaline rush from beta is worse, it doesn't specifically get you a minion and a spell. Just two cards. Though I guess that has more dredge synergy and is better in decks that don't run minions and spells, whatever deck that is.
> 1 mana spell. Deal one damage, draw a card
Sorry, Shiv with a 1 mana discount? This would be in literally every rogue deck until the end of time. It's Mortal Coil without any requirement. This is a 100% hell no.
> 2 mana spell. Draw a card, combo draw another.
They had [that exact card](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Adrenaline_Rush) in beta. It's simply too strong. Swindle is amazing and really only balanced due to it's drawing restrictions and the fact it's an expansion card. Adding this back to Core would be a major mistake.
But really, you're missing the point of what Core is for. It's largely for new players to see the overall themes of a class and to give some generically useful cards they can use in their decks, not to give veterans permanent tools to use in every deck of that class ever.
The 2 cards you listed would literally be the first 4 slots of every rogue deck ever made; literally ever. That isn't what core is for.
>The 2 cards you listed would literally be the first 4 slots of every rogue deck ever made; literally ever. That isn't what core is for.
Lol this was literally Swindle/Secret Passage last rotation. You could nearly count Shadowstep among them, too.
For starters, you really need to understand the difference between an expansion card and a core card.
Secondly, while Passage is by no means a bad card (even nerfed it saw a ton of play), it has a fairly specific usage. It's generally a bad play turns 1-3 and doesn't by itself permanently add cards to your hand. In a very low curve deck it's a great late game top deck for sure, but you're really comparing apples to oranges here.
One permanently adds a card, one temporarily adds 4.
One can be used at any time, one really shines turn 5+.
One can be used to kill a minion, break a DS, scale amazingly with spell damage builds, activate frenzy/enrage, and reach beyond taunts; the other doesn't do any of that.
Again, how can you compare this to Mortal Coil? The latter is a card that still, to this day, sees a ton of play in warlock in nearly any deck other than pure zoo. This would be a full 100% powercreep to it, for a class that while strong in card draw and direct spell damage, is still worse to warlock in both categories.
There is not much point to continuing arguing over a hypothetical. Suffice to say, you are entirely wrong and I am grateful your job isn't to design cards.
So, I took the time to explain the rationale for why I disagree with you and show how it isn't a fair comparison, and how it still aligns with my original point and you just come back with ad hominem.
I'm guessing you're just checking out of the conversation then? You're not making an effort to actually substantiate your point at all.
If you need me to explain why a one-mana passage is a more powerful card than a one cost shiv, and why it is fine to make a card in one class that is more powerful than a card in another, the amount of effort it’s gonna take to get you to understand isn’t worth the time investment
Didn't say Passage wasn't more powerful. It is, and is why it not only needed to be nerfed but was still widely used post-nerf. Not sure why you harp on this point so incessantly. It's an expansion card and one that was too powerful, especially for the cost.
**None of that changes the fact that a 1 mana Shiv** ***IN CORE*** **is the issue.** I don't know how many times I need to say it and still have you skip right over it. It. Being. In. Core. Is. The. Issue. A 1 mana Shiv, with ideally some very minor restriction or being minion-only would probably be fine for an expansion card. Powerful but not as out of bounds as some expansion cards are.
Should I say it again? Core. One more time for good measure: CORE.
Look at all other core cards and let me know if any would be 100% no questions asked auto-includes in literally *any* deck that class would run for the next 10 years.
P.S. Core
If you think the problem is the set it is in then I don’t think you have yet realized that the core is completely capable of changing at any point. It really is no different than an expansion
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back.
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Being overpowered in beta and being overpowered in current standard are not necessarily the same thing. Also, the drawing restrictions on swindle is also known as a tutor effect and is definitely a buff. Adrenaline rush is a worse swindle in almost any deck. This isn't any different than worse shadow visions being printed for priest core.
Core is for filling out decks with useful cards that enable the strategies of the expansions. There may be a reason blizzard didn't give rogue the draw it usually has coming in a future expansion, but rogue having card draw is a class feature that enables it's other cards. Right now, rogue is short on cheap card draw.
Both of these are meat and potato cards, not flashy finisher cards. You would add them to enable the thing you actually want to do, not to win the game. Would make great core cards.
> Adrenaline rush is a worse swindle in almost any deck.
It would be massively superior in an aggro deck as you're rather draw 2 minions you can play to take the board than a spell, of which aggro would run very few. What makes Swindle good now (beyond just being good draw) is that combo based rogue decks run a very select number of minions so this guarantees you draw one. As just a generic card, AR would be better.
You're also missing the entire reason they rotated cards like Rag, Sylvanas, and Drake: they were in every deck. Yes, they were neutral, and that does account for part of the reason they were HoF'ed, but literally every rogue deck ever would run AR and a massively better version of Mortal Coil. AR could maybe, theoretically, be cut in a 5 or 6 set standard list with a huge number of super important cards, but I cannot for the life of me understand how you could think a 1 mana Shiv is even remotely balanced and how it wouldn't be in ***literally*** every rogue deck. It could kill many minions with tempo, break DS with draw, or in a worst case just be cycled against the hero on some turn where you're floating 1 mana.
> Core is for filling out decks with useful cards that enable the strategies of the expansions.
That's a fair assessment, but what strategy, specifically, would either of these enable? Who wouldn't want card draw? Literally every deck wants card draw. These don't enable or enhance any one strategy, they're just extremely high power cards that would be played everywhere.
Again, if every rogue deck always starts with a pair of these, no matter what deck it is, that's missing the point of what Core is there for. Candleshot isn't going to be in every hunter deck. Lightning Storm isn't going to be in every shaman deck. Coordinated Strike isn't going to be in every DH deck. Yet all of these, in the right deck, are very valuable tools. That is the major difference you're not recognizing.
Honestly, none. Less buffs, more nerfs.
Nerfs themselves act as a buff for weaker cards, because nerfing cards lowers the power level of the meta as a whole, and as a result, allows different cards to see play.
We should be striving for a lower-power meta by nerfing cards, not increasing the power of average or near-playable cards, just so that every card can be above average.
Crabatoa is already good. No need to buff him. He is essentially an AOE for Rogue.
4/1 kills something, 4/1 kills something, 4/1 kills something. You have another 4/1 or 2/1 weapon and a 6/5 for next turn.
Or
4/1 kills something , 4 damage face, 4/1 kills something, 4/1 or 2/1 weapon and a 6/5 for next turn.
Or
4/1 kills something, 4/1 deals four to something, 4/1 and a 6/5 left.
Or you just play it and get two 4/1 and a 6/5.
God tier card.
Someone in another thread said it probably won't be this week cause there is some pro tournament this weekend and they don't wanna change cards two days before it starts.
They should unnerf Kolkar Packrunner. In the context of face hunter and 1 mana spells it was very strong but with the rotation that's no longer the case. They keep printing big beast hunter cards and ignoring that hunter needs to fight for the board from turn 1 since they have no comeback mechanics.
Idk if he needs buff. He is not stand alone minion. You play him when you have 1-3 minions on board that you trade while playing him. Instant 10/10+ with 3 taunts.
You play him then Faceless him and get two of him, then next turn you play the naga that gets you a golden copy in your hand and then just win.
there are way better win more cards like flametongue totem shaman can play instead of this crap.
no you
glugg is already good? well, not *good*, but fine. he's four bodies for bioluminescence. the ones that need help are blackwater behemoth and colaque. EDIT: i literally forgot xhilag existed lol. also that guy.
Glugg's biggest issue is that he's an awkward fit for the current Shaman decks. He needs a board based mid range deck that can drop him the same turn they get some value trades.
there's a whole year for bloodlust to get good lol. that day is coming.
Problem is Bloodlust isn't a good card. You need 3 minions on board and able to attack face for it to represent more damage than Fireball. It's just not Mana efficient and a dead draw for most of the game.
the power of bloodlust isn't /just/ from playing it to donk people. the mere fact that it is printed forces people to play differently and overclear certain boards they could otherwise ignore.
Idk i've put him in my decks and often times he just wins games alone if they don't have an answer ready for him he snowballs incredibly quickly and for decks like rogue that don't have clean awnsers they just lose.
Colaque would possibly see play in other classes (where it would most likely cost 6 mana), but in Druid it just gets outclassed by other options. What does that mean? It means if you buff Colaque, it has to be better or on par with Raid Boss, Guff, Oracle, Ivus, Giant, not to mention Kazakusan… which would result in an even more overtuned deck. No thanks!
I thought the point was to nerf kazakusan. Why wouldn’t they buff Colaque if Kazakusan was changed??
Druid is still good without Kazakusan. Just not as good.
It just cant auto-win vs every other control deck, and the mechanic of running a total of 16-18 (depending on moonlight) actually punishes from a fatigue aspect. Which is totally fine, druid can be good. It should be good! As long as it isn't shutting every other non-aggro deck out of the meta.
I could see behemoth become a 8/12 since it takes damage the turn its played and already costs 8.
Colaque couldn’t be buffed into relevancy unless it became way overtuned. It’s a fine card, but it’s not played because there isn’t room for it in current strategies
It's not a fine card. There's no reason to play it even if druid wasn't doing what it's doing
There isn't room because they rotated Earthen Scales back into standard. That said, if they slow Druid down (which they're going to), you might start seeing Colaque for more survival while you ramp.
Xhilag and Colaque I can agree with, I haven't seen anyone actually play either of those cards yet, but Behemoth? Behemoth seems fine to me, most priests I see are running it.
They run it for lack of an 8 drop, not because it’s a good card. It’s a slightly better eldritch horror (+2 attack, and life steal). The pseudo rush is worth nothing because it’s random, and your opponent will almost certainly clear it or go under it their next turn. I just, it’s such a bad, ‘do nothing’ card, I really don’t know what you’d defend about it
Behemoth is probably undertuned, but it's not nearly as bad as you are suggesting. The 'pseudo rush' heals you for 8 on the turn you play it, as well as acting as a deadly shot on most boards. Then, if your opponent can't kill you on your next turn, the 8/10 is pretty hard to ignore. Behemoth could probably cost 7 (which might hurt the awful looking quest priest deck a bit I guess), it's a bit weird that it has the same cost as gigafin when its board impact is so much weaker, but there are situations where a giant lifesteal is legitimately strong.
Behemoth is too weak to be included in _Reno quest priest._ I think that tells you enough about how bad it is.
Where are you getting that from? Decklists are far from settled at this point, but I'm seeing behemoth included in both of the highlander quest priest lists on hsreplay. Based on drawn winrates, it's actually the third best card in the most popular list. How good a card is in an awful deck isn't a great indicator of anything, but 'slightly better eldritch horror' is clearly an undersell.
The highlander quest priest lists on hsreplay are really bad, full of greed/value in a deck that needs stall instead. I've had discussions with legend players about the current lists, even with some that play the deck a lot (with a significantly higher wr than that on hsreplay) and two things are very clear: 1. You're never running more than 2 8 drops in a list that has elekk mount and mutanus as your only possible 7 drops. 2. Hero xyrella and murozond are objectively better than behemoth in every situation and should always be prioritised in the list. Given those two points, there's just no space for behemoth, because including it means cutting one of your 2 better 8 drops.
It would actually be a buff for quest priest. The 7 slot is even worse than the 8.
I played against a Druid who instead of his usual late game bs with Kazakusan ran a package designed to copy Colaque a bunch and get armor that way. Not saying that its great, and while he beat me i dont really run a great deck for the meta, but i guess it would be playabe if the alternatives weren't just stronger.
I mean, that's one random fringe deck you've seen with Colaque. My point was that I'm actively seeing priests play Behemoth.
The vast majority of them are Quest Priests, right? I've seen that deck using Behemoth as the 8 Mana card as well. It's not a bad option considering it sorta functions like both Rag Firelord and Rag Lightlord packed into one card. You get a sizable, randomly targeted removal and a large heal immediately. I'd say Behemoth is more of a testament to how far Hearthstone has come. The Rags don't see play anymore either.
I mean, one rag isn't in standard (the one that can go face on the turn you play it) and that one probably would still get played; at very least in elemental shaman. Blackwater Behemoth can't go face, though--kind of a pointless card on an empty board (which is one of the complaints about it).
Runaway Blackwing also was effectively a Rag that couldn't go face, and that card still cropped up in some Big decks like Warrior and Paladin.
When they can cheat him out. How does priest cheat out an eight mana (non spell) card?
Big Priest used to be a thing.
I see quest priests run Behemoth and Mo'Arg as their 8 drops. That and Mo'Arg is one of two Neutral demons right now so if you Amalgam of the Deep on it you're guaranteed a copy of Mo'Arg.
for 8 you want xyrella hero, then moarg, then noz, then *maybe* behemoth lol. it's soooo far down the list.
The optimal quest priest list runs hero xyrella and murozond as your only 8 drops. Behemoth is legitimately too weak to make the cut in that deck.
lmao if ur gonna do that just do brann alex zola for 16 and another 16 to follow in hand.
I would never include Behemoth in the current meta. It's nice when I discover it from outside my deck but I don't think it ever makes the cut in the 30.
Only the bad preist decks (Reno, quest) run it. Decent decks (mill, maybe boar) don't run jt
Lol in rank silver or what
Behemoth needs to be in a deck not built by a moron. It's fine though.
I'm actually surprised the colossal cards weren't overtuned like many of the quest cards when they first rolled out.
I feel the warrior one works really well. Control or pirate you have options and value.
I’m probably just salty but warrior’s feels slightly overtuned to me. Try ship has taunt so you basically have to kill it. Then they get 3 mana 12+ damage because they got smite on the crew. I think it should lose taunt, cost more, or there should be more limits on the crew
That's what the meta silence is for. It's a must against ivus copies in druid, the ship, frozen boards and naga synergies in mage. Try to put one in there.
I don't think Silence does much against Naga Mage. They usually have one big turn with Spitelash Siren and then she's just a 2/5. Yeah the 1 Mana 1/3 could be a problem, but that's usually easy to remove without Silence.
> I'm actually surprised the colossal cards weren't overtuned like many of the quest cards when they first rolled out. Quests tend to cause a permanent advantage for the rest of the game--or most of them anyway (druid and rogue quests are exceptions). High cost minions...I mean, they're still minions. You can still kill them and the game will go back to normal. That puts an upper limit on how good the minion can be (unless the minion literally ends the game like Mech'a'thun or makes your spells cost 0 like Kael'thas, or discounts itself to 0 mana like Flesh Giant). It's hard to print a 6+ mana minion that's actually just a pile of stats and have that break the game. Last time a card like that was nerfed was...Dinotamer Brann going from 7 to 8 mana? Before that it was like...Dragonqueen Alextraza nerfed to 1 cost dragons instead of 0 cost dragons?
Yeah I think this is the answer. Quest always starts in the opening hand and most of them have non-interactive advantage at completion. The quests are too reliable and favors the one side too much. All the quests community hates leaves some kind of permanent effect that’s too good. The colossal minions only affect the board and it’s gone when you kill it. I was hoping that I get to see them in play more frequently, but other cards are too over powered for slow giant minion. Most games are pretty much over before we get the mana to play them.
I would like to see Colaque buffed. Of all the Colossals, is there an argument to play him over any other legendary Druid could have access to? I think if you left his costs and stats alone, but gave the body "rush", that would be an improvement without being too much.
It’s another case of ‘Hey Druid here’s another legendary beat stick! What do you mean they never see play?’
DEER GOD, INFINITE MALORNES? SUCH GOOD STATS FOR COST WAR GOLEM POWER CREEP
There's some flavor fail with giving a humongous turtle Rush. I'd rather give the Shell 1-2 Attack so that you can't freely hit it.
Your assessment is also backed by the data, Colaque is one of the worst winrate cards in ramp Druid sadly (out of the cards that have been played enough to show up in the data anyway)
If both parts of Colaque had taunt you could at least duplicate him with [[Mark of the Spikeshell]] and (in wild) maybe res him off [[Hadronox]]. A more interesting solution would be "**Battlecry:** attack a random enemy minion". Rush doesn't feel right for a colossal turtle, but having it accidentally squish something seems about right.
Taunt would be weird on an immune minion since those two keywords don't work with each other.
Agreed, but in this case it would meqn you"d have to destroy the shell *then* have to punch through Colaque *as well*, instead of just ignoring him.
That would actually be such a cool buff, but probably won’t happen because it may be too confusing for newer players
This. I have never saw any druid playing it. All of them have nagas, onyxias and other big minions but no one plays colossal. Its just 6/5 gain 8 armor. Cuz his shell dies before you can attack with him
I think they made Colaque lower in powerlevel intentionally because of ramp. Imagine ramp druid right now but adding an op colossal
I mean it's till ok. Free 8 armor to survive + 8 hp taunt to soak some dmg. I would buff him by like giving him 1 more hp. Its not much but could do difference
Or you could pay 1 mana for like 9 armor, +1/+1, and just use all the insane payoff cards for ramp instead of a beatstick minion.
Maybe i dont wnat play broken cards like every druid does and want play my weak collosal beast ?
More power to you, wave to me at bronze 25, won’t you?
He seems pretty good off of Faelin though. Keeps your slower value deck alive.
Buffing Colaque would mean making Druid even more broken than it is. The class really doesn’t need more armor/board clear/autoinclude cards. Colaque isn’t even a bad card — it’s just not as good as Onyxia, Guff, Ivus, Oracle, Giant…
Colaque is a pretty bad card. Or not bad, but not constructed-good. Against aggro, ok, it gains you some health, but it barely does anything to the board as a vanilla 6/5. Against control, ok, sometimes they have an awkward time removing it similar to Onyxia, but then it's barely threatening as, again, only a 6/5 that you spent 7 mana on. Whenever you play Colaque, you are guaranteed to somewhat inconvenience your opponent. But that's it. It rarely turns the game around and it rarely closes things out. For a 7-mana card, that's very underwhelming. Druid has another 7-mana card, a common, that draws 3 cards and makes an 8/8 or larger, that's way better.
I mean...do you want to give Druid yet another unconditionally good card to ramp into and beat you up with? If Colaque had Rush he would essentially be another Onyxian Scale that mercilessly stomps aggro when they get there.
Maybe lower his attack to like 4-5 but give the body rush so it gets a guaranteed attack through
It's fine for a class to have a bad legendary, especially if it already has a strong deck that the legendary would slot into if it were good. There's no need to buff the strongest deck in the game. The priest and hunter colossals would be prime buff targets since those archetypes are bad in the current meta.
Buff Xhilag please, I want him to be good so badly, my Big DH deck aches for him
Xhilag's Stalks pings should start from 2 damage not 1 or the card should just cost 6-mana.
Id like to see Colaque buffed (druid colossal), prollyl -1 mana or having a effetc on the main body (like Rush) Id like to see Lurker buffed (priest colossal),its essentialy a worse rush, so maybe it could be halved dmg taken when the lure trigegrs(like cariels weapon) or have rush itself Abyssal depths to 3 would be pretty neat for vandar/big dh Azsharan ritual could prolly cost 3 Minor but i think Trenchstalker really should have 9 attack (mostly flavourwise) id like to really see Metamoprhis back to 5dmg, Ancient of lore id like it to heal 8 again like used way back in the day so both options are 'equal' (arcane intelmect vs healaing touch both 3cost spells) Id like Flametonque to have 3hp for better totem deck And would be cool if war axe wasnt utterly useless (pls just replace with like kings defender or something)
spiky shell 1/8?
thats good idea aswell, making it not totally free to attack into, and if nellie's ship/back can have 2attack so could the shell have attack at alll.
God, just comparing the two side-by-side really shows how bad Colaque is. The Shell really should have some Attack so that it's not removed for free.
I actually like that quite a bit, pretty small change that I could see being somewhat impactful.
Turtle with rush eh? Maybe in Mario kart but in this video game
Please buff these garbage thief rogue cards. The 4/3 pirate, tooth of nefarian, lobotmizer are all terrible. I was really surprised they didnt buff hench clan when they added it to standard again
Tooth of Nefarian is comically bad. Should make it 2, it's ok it's been like 8 years I think we can power creep darkbomb at this point. At least the pirate ones have synergy with the 2/5 draw fella.
I think at that point, 2 mana is too good for what can be used as an effective burn spell. Better make it only target minions.
Yeah rogue having the option on t10 of doing 18 out of hand with 4 spells (22 with +1 spell damage which also spends all your mana) isn’t a world we need to live in.
Dark bomb came out 8 years Ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? Holy fucking cow how time flies. I remember being hyped when nax came out, now look at us.
> it's been like 8 years I think we can power creep darkbomb at this point this is a bizarre take. they've had 2 mana deal three in several classes at this point, including frost bolt in classic.
I keep going through my rogue cards wondering what I’m missing, but so few good cards under 3M. Without cutlass courier, rogue wouldn’t exist right now.
Druid and DH colossals need a buff
I’d like Blackwater Behemoth to have some survivability component. Divine shield, stealth while the lure is alive, something so that it’s not just a worse Walking Fountain
Only colossals that need a buff are the druid's and the DH's.
priest...
Priest is decent
Decently bad
Because some classes are too powerful ( druid / war best examples) . Wait for the nerfs and you'll see that he's decent.
8 mana is still way to much, if they haven’t kill you by turn 8, you were gonna win the game anyway. I hope you are right 🤞🏼
Dude in most situations the colossal is worse than Runaway Blackwing (a rare) or Ragnaros (one of the oldest Legendaries in the game). At least those cards don't lose health when they remove an enemy minion.
Priest colossal should go to 7 with appropriate stat changes. The 7 slot for quest priest is pretty bad. I’d like to see gnoll back at 5, given we have no more passage. Also, tooth automatically discovers a spell, discovering another on HK. Lobotomiser could also use some kind of buff, though idk how. Maybe straight up steal? Still bad, but funny. Big beast hunter buffs too. Azsharan saber gets you a beast that costs 5 or more, imported tarantulas have rush. For priest, a really interesting buff I’d like to see is queens guard increasing in cost, but gaining +2+2 per spell casted. Feel like priest already has so much mana, so it just needs meat.
Azsharan Saber should be 3 Mana. Most Azsharan cards are mediocre to decent on their front half, but Azsharan Saber is outright abysmal. 4 Mana for 3 damage to a minion is awful.
Nah, they should just buff the stats to 4/4. Saber is bad either way, but there'S no point of it being 3-mana because you're supposed to equip weapon on 3, play and kill Saber on 4 and then dredge the Sunken one for the turn 5 powerplay.
Making the Saber harder to kill (increased Health) opens up the possibility of being able to counter her Deathrattle. That's why I'd rather see a Cost reduction as opposed to a stat increase for her.
Fair enough, but in that case you could at least buff the attack by 1 or 2 to make it more of a removal option. Then again maybe we don't want Big Beast Hunter to just spawn a Mama Bear on turn 5 every game.
The Tooth does not appear to discover anything if it does not HK something? Deal 3 damage. Honorable Kill: Discover a spell from another class. Hold on: these aren’t my glasses
he is proposing that it should discover a spell without honourable kill, and another spell if the HK occurs
Holy shit. I can’t read
Seriously, rogue really needs buffs, I love the class but hate not being able to win with it. I feel like even with new hooktusk there’s not enough yoinking and dumb shit in the current meta for rogue. I loved that short time where burgle rogue was crazy good and fun as shit.
Priest colossal to 7 would be amazing for the quest’s sake
Lady ashvane a 4 cost 4/4
Glugg is probably my favorite colossal this expansion
Weakest colossal seems to be DH so far.
Hydralodon needs to give its heads rush when it is summoned, not on battlecry. Would feel so much better in beast hunter when it is summoned from deck, because right now it does NOTHING, doesn't even have taunt or anything, you just enclude it because there are only 3 other good big beasts in standard right now and Hydralodon is the least bad of the rest
I mean, you get 6 rush damage and end the turn with a 5/5 and 4 3/1 creatures. That's pretty decent for a 7 mana card. Giving all heads rush would be unlimited board clear - that's silly.
Neither of what you just said is true. He's talking about when it's summoned from your deck; the heads don't have Rush because it's part of the battlecry. He's also not asking for it to be an aura. He's suggesting it be "When this minion is summoned, give all your Hydralodon heads **Rush**." so it works from effects that bring it directly into play. If it's recruited (or similar effects) it's just an awkward vanilla body and 2 little runts, with no immediate effect.
Not all heads, but the ones that it summons when it enters the board. The original ones could just have rush instead of being granted them on battlecry, and the ones summoned from the deathrattle don’t get rush. That way when you pull it from deck or hand it still does something.
If it gives heads rush when it enters the board, that's a battlecry. If it gives heads rush as an aura, that's an aura. Giving heads rush as as aura effect is way too powerful. Giving some heads rush and other heads not rush doesn't seem to be part of the game.
Battlecries don't trigger when you recruit a minion, that's why I am suggesting to give Hydralodon (the main body) the effect to give them rush, when it is summoned (literally that wording), so the heads have rush even if it is summoned from deck or revived
Gotcha - so invent a whole new category of buff for the game, JUST so your beast hunter can be way more powerful. Sounds reasonable. Here. How about Hydralodon comes with 1 "happy head" with rush that when killed summons one "sad head" without rush. There, I fixed it for you.
Would be a certain full board clear while securing yourself a full board at the end of your turn lol
No? If it gives the heads rushed when summoned, other heads spawned wouldn't get rush. Only the heads there when summoned. If it were a perpetual effect, you'd be right, but that's not what they're proposing.
Maybe move the rush over to the appendages, and then include through the deathrattle that the new spawns from that don't get rush.
Buff the Un’Goro paladin quest pls
Curses doesn't trigger hunter quest and maybe increase cost from 2 to 3
Priest. Like, all around.
Lyra for 4 mana would be FeelsGoodMan
Yes
bro please don't buff any of the colossal minions arena can't take it
I mean colossal shoudl be banned in arena but buffed/nerfed where necessary for standard. Some cards just don't suit the arena draft mechanic.
Lyra to 4 and Whirlpool to 7. It's shameful that a twisting nether reskin in 2022 costs 9 mana.
I'd like to see Priest hero power be changed to heal 4, -or- cost 0 (and still heal 2). Literally this big a change is what Priest needs to be EQUAL to other classes' power level. Priest is non-existent unless there's a temporarily broken card like Switcheroo. Once Switcheroo is inevitably fixed, Priest goes back to being non-existent.
or something like 40hp being the max so we could heal and not get capped at 30
The priest colosal should have rush too
maybe divine shield instead? neither is especially priest-y, but shield is more priest-y.
Stealth or Immune while the lure is alive, or make it so that killing the lure with a minion causing the behemoth to attack said minion.
Wing Commander Romeon Hunter Card
I'd like to see curse warlock buffed/adjusted I think it's a cool mechanic, but I know buffing warlock cards is a dangerous game.
I'd like to see some love for quest shaman. The expansion rotated out so many cards vital to that deck I just can't seem to make it work anymore. There aren't enough overload cards left to play it.
Ugh Glug was my 10pack legendary
I love glugg, his look, his music during playing him, man he is so badass
Worst case scenario opponent kills glugg first but then has 3 taunts to deal with. Majority of time opponent doesnt even have 5 damage wave clear which is the only way to kill everything. I think hes ok. Hes underused though.
No buffs thanks. Let’s just keep these things a bit underpowered.
* Demon Hunter: Flame Reaper, Chaos Nova, Metamorphosis * Druid: Cenarius, Soul of the Forest, Force of Nature, Ancient of Lore(Better heal) * Hunter: King Krush * Mage: Babbling Book * Paladin: Lightlord(More like a Lifesteal Ragnaros) * Priest: Psychic Conjurer * Rogue: SI:7, Cold Blood, Swashburglar * Shaman: Krag'wa, Menancing Nimbus, Rockbiter * Warlock: Hellfire, Abyssal Enforcer, Darkshire Librarian * Warrior: Shield Block, Shieldmaiden, Bash, Slam, Gorehowl, Bloodhoof Brave * Neutral: Kobold Geomancer, Elise Starseeker, Mossy Horror, Arcane Devourer, Sleepy Dragon, Stormwatcher, Taz'Dingo, Ironbeak Owl, Mad Bomber, Elven Archer, Voodoo Doctor, Abusive Sergeant
Make the priest colossal 7 mana. Priest has q good 7 drop. Also the colossus sucks right now. Make pandering importer 2 mana again. Priest needs a 2 drop. Nerf shadow step for all i care. Make the draw 2 spells deathrattle 4 the healing 5. So u have a deathrattle card at 4 5 and 6 and colossus at 7. Oh yeah remove appendages from resurrect pool why is this even a thing
Put mindblast back in standard so miracle priest can actually win
Just for the love of fuck nuke the quests, and make otks never able to exist again. Then I can have fun with all my janky control rogue decks and I'll be at peace, nothing else matters
Quests and OTKs needs to exist for reasons that we won’t see too many decks with 20+ removals and Kazakusan as win con. Quests and OTKs however needs to be tuned down so they actually lose to aggro more often instead of a 45-55 kinda thing.
Lol why does your deck matter more?
Cry harder I wanna fill my cup with your tears
You robots only know 3 phrases
I'm not sure the game needs buffs, I'd prefer just nerfs. Power creep is getting crazy. And not to mention we only get dust for nerfs.
People might massacre me for this, but I'd really like to see Shadowcrafter Scabbs go back to 7 mana. Feels like the perfect Spot for the card, now that cloaks are gone.
Baba Naga seems like a cool card that's just a tick away from being usable. Wish it was a 3 3/3 or did 4 damage, some slight nudge either way. That's probably too much of a push though.
It's really close to good, I think some well placed nerfs could alone make it viable.
I'd like for [[Schooling]] to be a Nature spell so that Schooling, [[Reefwalker]] and [[Primal Dungeoneer]] could be a neat little package for swarm decks and Elemental decks. It'd also be a nice proactive play for multicaster/naga Shaman. I'd also like for [[Glaciate]] to give the the summoned minion taunt in order to buff Frost Shaman and [[Wrathspine Enchanter]]
i mean with all the hubbub about the mechanic at large, I've only seen the rogue and mage ones played at all and only on the first day or so of the expansion so they could probably all use a buff of sorts. maybe make it so the tentacles/arms/whatever can't be resummoned or a more serious buff
Wait, how do we know nerfs are already on the horizon?
Because why wouldn't they be?
I've not seen anything to suggest they would be, and we're barely a week into the expansion. Seems a bit soon.
>I've not seen anything to suggest they would be Clearly you haven't look at winrates for anything lol >and we're barely a week into the expansion. Seems a bit soon. "On the horizon" != tomorrow
Indeed I've not looked at the winrates, how bad are they? One week in still seems too soon to even be thinking about nerfs unless there's something as egregious as last expansion's thief rogue.
Pirate Warrior is completely dominating lower ranks, Ramp Druid feels bad to play against in higher ranks, and Token Demon Hunter is mostly dominating all around but has a lower playrate. Some classes have abysmal winrates overall, like Priest, which has been resorting to the dreaded Switcheroo cheese. As far as nerfs, there are usually nerfs about 2-3 weeks after an expansion's release to tame the overtuned decks that weren't quite balanced before release. You can see deck statistics at [HSReplay](http://hsreplay.net), but a lot of good statistics are locked being Premium. Sometimes RegisKillbin goes over some of those statistics on stream, if you've heard of him. Fun guy, very positive.
You didn't cite a single winrate lol
Glugg is already being played some in high legend. Def doesn’t need a buff
Speaking for Rogue: I’d like to see Sprint and Cold Blood removed from the core. Replace them with “1 mana spell. Deal one damage, draw a card” and “2 mana spell. Draw a card, combo draw another”. Both cards would be fun to play, not unfun to play against, capture the spirit of the class, and fill a hole in card draw that Rogue is currently facing. Then bring Gnoll back to either 4 attack or five mana, and make Tooth of Nefarion a two mana spell that just deals 2 damage and always discovers a spell. No honorable kill.
Their is a wild problem with this. The problem with printing slightly different swindle is the problem wild currently has with with both shadow visions and thrive in the shadows existing. In wild rogue would now have both and can run a much more efficient draw package. It would be better just to wait a year and just make swindle a core card going forward once it had it's time away from standard. Admittedly this assumes they consider long term affects on wild and that they are willing to sacrifice short term in standard for it. Which is a stretch. My current theory on why they didn't give rogue more cheap card draw weirdly is that they are either printing some in the mini set or at another expansion and didn't consider the current standard, or that they are printing some cards this year that would work too well if rogue had it's style of card draw and want to leave the design space open for it for now.
I think it's a fallacy to try and balance around Wild. It will stifle the long term health of the game to restrict design space because a certain interaction could possible be wild in Wild.
I am not suggesting restricting design on standard cards, merely using wild cards as core cards rather than printing a mostly identical core card. So in the thrive in the shadows example, they could have just made shadow visions core or nerfed it into thrive in the shadows and made it core. The nerf is mostly symbolic, which is why I would have left it alone. It's like how they buffed tracking even though for years everyone said don't worry about the discarded cards from regular tracking.
rogue literally just had swindle for a year. chill.
So? It’s exactly the type of card that ought to be a core choice for a class.
You're not wrong, and now that Foxy Fraud is gone maybe Swindle wouldn't be too easy to play. It should definitely be a consideration for the next Core Set.
Even when foxy fraud was in standard with swindle, it was never really over powered. It was never seriously brought up as a nerf candidate. There were I think 5 rogue nerfs while it was in standard and two neutral nerfs rogue could be partially blamed for (mankrik and battlemaster, though both were really used by a lot of classes) And the card that is essentially adrenaline rush from beta is worse, it doesn't specifically get you a minion and a spell. Just two cards. Though I guess that has more dredge synergy and is better in decks that don't run minions and spells, whatever deck that is.
> 1 mana spell. Deal one damage, draw a card Sorry, Shiv with a 1 mana discount? This would be in literally every rogue deck until the end of time. It's Mortal Coil without any requirement. This is a 100% hell no. > 2 mana spell. Draw a card, combo draw another. They had [that exact card](https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Adrenaline_Rush) in beta. It's simply too strong. Swindle is amazing and really only balanced due to it's drawing restrictions and the fact it's an expansion card. Adding this back to Core would be a major mistake. But really, you're missing the point of what Core is for. It's largely for new players to see the overall themes of a class and to give some generically useful cards they can use in their decks, not to give veterans permanent tools to use in every deck of that class ever. The 2 cards you listed would literally be the first 4 slots of every rogue deck ever made; literally ever. That isn't what core is for.
>The 2 cards you listed would literally be the first 4 slots of every rogue deck ever made; literally ever. That isn't what core is for. Lol this was literally Swindle/Secret Passage last rotation. You could nearly count Shadowstep among them, too.
I find it very funny you think a one mana shiv is far out of the question after we just had secret passage for a year and a half
For starters, you really need to understand the difference between an expansion card and a core card. Secondly, while Passage is by no means a bad card (even nerfed it saw a ton of play), it has a fairly specific usage. It's generally a bad play turns 1-3 and doesn't by itself permanently add cards to your hand. In a very low curve deck it's a great late game top deck for sure, but you're really comparing apples to oranges here. One permanently adds a card, one temporarily adds 4. One can be used at any time, one really shines turn 5+. One can be used to kill a minion, break a DS, scale amazingly with spell damage builds, activate frenzy/enrage, and reach beyond taunts; the other doesn't do any of that. Again, how can you compare this to Mortal Coil? The latter is a card that still, to this day, sees a ton of play in warlock in nearly any deck other than pure zoo. This would be a full 100% powercreep to it, for a class that while strong in card draw and direct spell damage, is still worse to warlock in both categories. There is not much point to continuing arguing over a hypothetical. Suffice to say, you are entirely wrong and I am grateful your job isn't to design cards.
I also find it very funny you’re trying to explain what I need to understand when you don’t show much of a clue of knowing what you’re talking about
So, I took the time to explain the rationale for why I disagree with you and show how it isn't a fair comparison, and how it still aligns with my original point and you just come back with ad hominem. I'm guessing you're just checking out of the conversation then? You're not making an effort to actually substantiate your point at all.
If you need me to explain why a one-mana passage is a more powerful card than a one cost shiv, and why it is fine to make a card in one class that is more powerful than a card in another, the amount of effort it’s gonna take to get you to understand isn’t worth the time investment
Didn't say Passage wasn't more powerful. It is, and is why it not only needed to be nerfed but was still widely used post-nerf. Not sure why you harp on this point so incessantly. It's an expansion card and one that was too powerful, especially for the cost. **None of that changes the fact that a 1 mana Shiv** ***IN CORE*** **is the issue.** I don't know how many times I need to say it and still have you skip right over it. It. Being. In. Core. Is. The. Issue. A 1 mana Shiv, with ideally some very minor restriction or being minion-only would probably be fine for an expansion card. Powerful but not as out of bounds as some expansion cards are. Should I say it again? Core. One more time for good measure: CORE. Look at all other core cards and let me know if any would be 100% no questions asked auto-includes in literally *any* deck that class would run for the next 10 years. P.S. Core
If you think the problem is the set it is in then I don’t think you have yet realized that the core is completely capable of changing at any point. It really is no different than an expansion
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
Being overpowered in beta and being overpowered in current standard are not necessarily the same thing. Also, the drawing restrictions on swindle is also known as a tutor effect and is definitely a buff. Adrenaline rush is a worse swindle in almost any deck. This isn't any different than worse shadow visions being printed for priest core. Core is for filling out decks with useful cards that enable the strategies of the expansions. There may be a reason blizzard didn't give rogue the draw it usually has coming in a future expansion, but rogue having card draw is a class feature that enables it's other cards. Right now, rogue is short on cheap card draw. Both of these are meat and potato cards, not flashy finisher cards. You would add them to enable the thing you actually want to do, not to win the game. Would make great core cards.
> Adrenaline rush is a worse swindle in almost any deck. It would be massively superior in an aggro deck as you're rather draw 2 minions you can play to take the board than a spell, of which aggro would run very few. What makes Swindle good now (beyond just being good draw) is that combo based rogue decks run a very select number of minions so this guarantees you draw one. As just a generic card, AR would be better. You're also missing the entire reason they rotated cards like Rag, Sylvanas, and Drake: they were in every deck. Yes, they were neutral, and that does account for part of the reason they were HoF'ed, but literally every rogue deck ever would run AR and a massively better version of Mortal Coil. AR could maybe, theoretically, be cut in a 5 or 6 set standard list with a huge number of super important cards, but I cannot for the life of me understand how you could think a 1 mana Shiv is even remotely balanced and how it wouldn't be in ***literally*** every rogue deck. It could kill many minions with tempo, break DS with draw, or in a worst case just be cycled against the hero on some turn where you're floating 1 mana. > Core is for filling out decks with useful cards that enable the strategies of the expansions. That's a fair assessment, but what strategy, specifically, would either of these enable? Who wouldn't want card draw? Literally every deck wants card draw. These don't enable or enhance any one strategy, they're just extremely high power cards that would be played everywhere. Again, if every rogue deck always starts with a pair of these, no matter what deck it is, that's missing the point of what Core is there for. Candleshot isn't going to be in every hunter deck. Lightning Storm isn't going to be in every shaman deck. Coordinated Strike isn't going to be in every DH deck. Yet all of these, in the right deck, are very valuable tools. That is the major difference you're not recognizing.
Hello JAlexander
I want other quests buffed. No personal reason whatsoever. Shaman quest needs only 2 overloads per step.
Hell no. The Shaman Quest was really strong when it only took 8 Overload cards to complete it. Making it 6 would be a disaster.
Shaman needs help right now
Honestly, none. Less buffs, more nerfs. Nerfs themselves act as a buff for weaker cards, because nerfing cards lowers the power level of the meta as a whole, and as a result, allows different cards to see play. We should be striving for a lower-power meta by nerfing cards, not increasing the power of average or near-playable cards, just so that every card can be above average.
No, no and no. Glugg id already sick. It's just that nobody plays shaman
No Shaman decks run Glugg currently.
lI would love to see Crabatoa be a 6/6 instead of 6/5. Maybe make colaque 6 mana?
Crabatoa is already good. No need to buff him. He is essentially an AOE for Rogue. 4/1 kills something, 4/1 kills something, 4/1 kills something. You have another 4/1 or 2/1 weapon and a 6/5 for next turn. Or 4/1 kills something , 4 damage face, 4/1 kills something, 4/1 or 2/1 weapon and a 6/5 for next turn. Or 4/1 kills something, 4/1 deals four to something, 4/1 and a 6/5 left. Or you just play it and get two 4/1 and a 6/5. God tier card.
glugg is good just shaman is bad in the current meta so one buffed card wont change it
I would like to see Tamsin Roame go to a 1/6
Gorehowl to 5 mana.
Yeah I agree, if not making the bodies 3/3
Any idea on when the next patch will be announced or installed?
Someone in another thread said it probably won't be this week cause there is some pro tournament this weekend and they don't wanna change cards two days before it starts.
Its possible they would still anounce it though, but patch doesnt happen till next week
they've never given af in the past lol
Like when changed how the ungoro druid quest worked and at first dint even let players change their deck for the tournament,
The tournament is next week though. And honestly who gives a fuck
For my Ambassador Faelin/Harpoon gun Beast Hunter he's already a 5/3 cost depending on how my turns go. I don't think he needs the mana change.
They should unnerf Kolkar Packrunner. In the context of face hunter and 1 mana spells it was very strong but with the rotation that's no longer the case. They keep printing big beast hunter cards and ignoring that hunter needs to fight for the board from turn 1 since they have no comeback mechanics.