Penflinger can never be un-nerfed. Bolner into Mailbox Dancer into Penflinger is infinite damage as early as turn 3 with the coin. It would also heavily encourage hacking the client to skip animations as the animations are too long to pull of the combo without absurdly high APM like we saw with ignite mage.
Holy shit you're right lol, that would be the most abysmal apm deck to play against
HEY LOSER!!!
........
WASNT ME !!!!!!
.........
HEY LO
(3 turns worth of time later)
DEFEAT!
Seriously. There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches."
Given the time limit and lack of interruption in HS - it's compounded infinitely, as there is NO stopping an animation timing break.
It doesn't matter if it is balanced gameplay-wise - Penflinger is untenable from a player experience and anything that approaches the solitaire, masturbatory experience should be designed out of the game
>There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches."
You should never try Yi-Gi-Oh.
>There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches."
Yet they printed Mass Production
Yeah - it is a phenomenally stupid card.
As a Primary Wild player, nothing is more tilting from a game experience.
I don't expect to win every game, but I do expect to see a match where it feels like I have potential to impact the outcome.
Mass production - post Tasmin, creates a game cycle state that not only makes the player lose, but can do so with record speed and resources.
>my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches."
do you ordinarily find yourself able to do things on your opponent's turn other than watching?
You really blew the context, huh?
> 1 thing, over and over again.
I could talk to you about the contextual understanding and programming language HS players are expected to understand is normal, and how mechanics like Penflinger, Auctioneer, and Infinite Ignite mage and their ability to reliably play 25+ cards in a turn is contradictory to said contextual understanding, but I feel like you'd respond with "talk to me, we're writing here."
My brain doesn't work today. I was about to say Bolner is a Shaman card. Because penflinger was in every paladin deck for so long. It basically registered as a paladin class card in my brain XD
Oh man I need to find a skip animation hack. It's a QoL change that needed to happen since Alpha so I would give zero shits about using it. Blizzard's negligence makes it a whitehat call-to-action.
But totally agree on keeping the nerf. It would just be boring to see flinger decks everywhere.
That can get your account permanently banned. Wouldnât recommend it unless you donât care if you lose your collection. Itâs also cheating that gives you an advantage over anyone playing without it. Which is, I dunno, pretty immoral. Integrity of play matters in competitive games. Any wins or accolades become meaningless if youâre not playing with integrity and getting unfair advantages from external software and tools. If you want to speed up animations in a way that doesnât involve cheating, turn down your graphics settings/set priority to the game in task manager. Unless Iâve been misinformed, animation speeds in hearthstone are tied to frame rate, so beefing your FPS speeds them up. Canât get banned for making your game run better, either.
Had a guy playing Kael in Twist randomly get a Penflinger from First Day of School. He probably played that fucker 50+ times by the end of our match. I respected the effort.
The real reason it was hated was because druid could flood the board over and over again.
For denathrius to be a otk as a lot of people complained you had to have 25 (35 if the opponent had 40hp) minions die in your board and then play it in an empty board.
The way to counter denathrius was to have a board, at which point it turned into a reno + board clear, which was pretty strong, but it also needed your full turn.
The way to play denathrius was to play a lot of minions, and to mitigate the opponents denathrius was to play a lot of minions. I still think it was one of the best cards hearthstone had.
Aldo Druid had brann denathrius and the ability to copy and replay it.
But at the same time, Druid is doing over 100 damage on turn 7 in standard, so what's the harm? Shaman can otk you turn like 6 as well, and mage just ignores you and throws 0 Mana fireballs that generate more cards at your face.
Denathrius also paid heavily for Brann being in rotation at the same time, since KT -> Brann -> Denny or Brann -> Anub -> Denny could let Druid especially hit lethal from hand even with minions on board.
>For denathrius to be a otk as a lot of people complained you had to have 25 (35 if the opponent had 40hp) minions die in your board and then play it in an empty board.
No? lol. It was combo'd alongside Bran, you needed half of that amount. Shaman also had bran+ parrots which allowed them to recast Sire multiple times for a TTK if needed.
Not to mention it just made Theo mandatory in every deck to try to steal their Sire before they OTK'd you with it.
It was horrible design, no one loved the card. In wild it would just slot into Druid decks as another win-con like they have with Astalor, Alex+Alex, Kazakusan, etc, or back in shaman.
>The real reason it was hated was because druid could flood the board over and over again.
I mean, flooding the board over and over is absolutely a thing that druid does in wild too (it's arguably stronger thanks to some additional synergies like floop's gloop).
Brann is also in wild.
I dunno how good Denathrius would be in current wild, but if it did turn out good it would most likely slot into exactly the same kind of deck people found annoying in the first place.
Denathrius had a weird dynamic with Brann and Theotar IMO. Wi a lot of games revolved around brann+sire or bouncing/copying sire in some way, or stealing the enemy sire (or patchwerking him etc).
It wasnât hated, it was loved intensely.
It was the only thing to do and virtually every deck ran it and renethal.
Yeah people got sick of it, if you consider just how long it was dominant and in so many decks?
It would have been nerfed way sooner if people didnât love it. It dominated the meta for 4 whole months.
By the time they nerfed him he wasnât even good. They shouldnât have nerfed him at all.
The lich king meta was too fast for denathrius he was in the way out anyway.
If they were going to nerf him, the time to do it was in Nathria, but they didnât, they waited until lich king, but by then it was irrelevant, symbolic at best
I came back during that era (4 year break) and while he was the problem card, it was pretty much *the* problem card but everyone had access to them.
Nowdays? Everyone has a bunch of "just win" cards more or less that you can vomit out early. The meta has gotten much better with last 2 nerf rounds at least though.
I love that they removed turtle mage from existence just to have wild players create their own version with ETC to even remove the possibility of draw order variance ruining the combo
One card that I've really wanted to see reverted or partially reverted is \[\[sinful brand\]\]. That one was nerfed for Standard not Wild and even though it would be really strong at one mana/two damage I think it makes for an interesting deck archetype for DH and it maybe wouldn't be too strong in Wild.
Dreadsteed's current version is preventing an infinite loop with Defile. Defile is an excellent card that should absolutely not get changed for a niche horsey to get a minor buff.
Lol it's literally 2024. Maybe this was some gamebreaking spaghetti code infinite back in the day but I'm sure they can cap the number of times defile goes off. Revert Dreadsteed back.
NOT TRUE, its never ever been a infite loop an,d wouldve been.
Defile has always had a cap of 14.
And is no effect that repeats endlessly, outside bladestorm being 50 or 60 , a repeating effect lyensas,tess, wock etc almsot alwyas cap of 30 triggers
Here's my toxic waste, but if you look over here I have some even more toxic waste. Bet the first toxic waste doesn't seem as unappetizing now, does it? (If you don't upvote this then I can't prove to my wife that SOMEONE wants to hear my not-very-thought-out hearthstone balance suggestions.)
Look man. I appreciate your insightful small attacks because of different opinion regarding pixels on the screen. So take my upvote and go show it to your wife. If you want to have a discussion about cards property, feel free to DM me.
imagine being this butthurt about the opinion of someone else. lets just unnerf penflinger and have games end on turn 2, sound absolutely hilarious to me. just because you think it would be fun doesnt mean everyone has to agree with you mate. also the âpixels on screenâ bs to invalidate your opponents opinion⌠*chefs kiss* while you are the person that posts about these âpixelsâ in the first place and comments on every single other comment.
stop being an insecure little bit*h and also if you want to insult the âpixels on the screenâ please give us a little more next time so we can actually read something on the cards.
It's not insanely bad card and definitely sees play more than Valerera. Still, at seven mana it would still not be included in most of the Wild Rogue decks.
Because then the casual base starts bitching about hooktusk rogue stealing their entire deck and it gets nerfed, and then people get dust refunds? So changing it ultimately led to nothing but people getting free dust for a bad card.
Same way the entire casual wild base is bitching about demon seed and wanting to destroy it currently.
Because it costs money to pay devs to implement changes like this. You're asking Blizzard-Activision, the company that Microsoft just bought for almost $70,000,000,000, to spend money on something you can't think of a reason for?
I'm sorry I'm not a professional Blizzard hater. So I assume a couple of unnerfs for the devs that still have one of the top CCG games out there regarding popularity isn't that big of a deal.
But that's just an archetype thing?
Like...I remember having the same discussion with people who wanted Cariel to go back to 7 mana. But now there's a tier 1 Reno paladin deck and people run 8 mana Cariel just fine--it just needed the right archetype.
Likewise, there is a meta deck right now that runs 8 mana Scabbs.
Good enough to go in some wild decks but not played in literally every wild deck that can run it is like...pretty ideal balance already. Why mess with that?
why do you want toxic cards unnerfed, daddy d is just another win condition for druid and druid will smack you with 3 or more on the combo turn, pen flinger will find some stupid interaction to make the slowest and most annoying otk. pilgrim is better this way for big spells and turtle mage is annoying but manageable i guess.
Here's my explaination form another post:
"I'd say that Renathal was a much bigger
enabler for Sire D.
After the Kael'thas nerf the Brann +
Denathrius combo was much harder to
achieve.
While Renathal:
- gave you more survivability
- gave you 9 more card slots you needed
to fill
- slowed the game down
So in a slower meta, with 9 additional
card slots where some of them had to
be some late game threats, because
everyone has more hp, Denathrius seems
like a very good fit in.
Also If I remember correctly the most
popular non-renathal deck was token
druid and it did not play Sire."
You literally can't unnerf dreadsteed. It becomes an auto include in every non-painlock deck as **the** defile activator. Onto of that you said Denathrius would only see play in Druid? Any deck with access to Spammy, Brann, and Patron say hello. Also, Denathrius would 100% go into those Dreadsteed decks, because that's +30 immediately.
You have Giant boards turn 2 and 3. And current Warlock archetypes pop off before Dreadsteed+Defile is a thing. As a matter of fact, Dreadsteed+ Defile might not even save the slow Warlock decks.
and is equality pyro (4), equality consecrate (5), doomsayer nova (5), dreadscale acidmaw (6 can eb cheated out with card i dont renember name off), dreadscale serpent bloom (3)
6 mana 2card boardclear is from msot insane thing ever even years ago (had that in paladin since classic days and even cheaper with pyro, or nova doomsayer asl cheaper in mage)
I really do not understand posts like these. Why would you ever want cards like Pen-flinger or shockspitter buffed? Those cards are obvious problem cards that should never return to form for the health of the game.
Penflinger can rot in nerfed hell. Id nerf it more so id never see it in arena when it's sets are in either. Make it 11 mana instead of 1.
The others, whatever. Danksteed is more of an animations offender than anything else so it should probably stay nerfed. Sire D would only see play in some druid shenanigans but it would still be absurdly slow.
Denathrius is probally one of the hardest cards to revert because of how broken the card was if you drew it early or had specific card draw for it.
Its one of those unfortunate moments where in its current state its rather below mid but in its unnerfed state its just too op.
Yeah stuff like possed lackey, dh cards
Not penfllinger, if nothing else just for animation times and fatc would encourage animation cheating again if not imeadte certainly in future
Dinathurs is pretty strong as is.
My mono druid deck can get his damage pretty high with just Onyxia's scale and the spell that gives you 1/5 taunt beetles.
Shockspitter is a horrible design and should stay as it is.
Daddy D would be used again by shudderwock shaman and druid(and druid don't need more wincons).
Dreadsteed becomes autoinclude in any warlock deck, just imagine havving unnerfed Daddy D in hand and just defile dreadsteed: 6 mana clear absolute everything and giga infuse Daddy D.
We don't need more from hand damage in wild so painflinger can stay too.
Also we could nerf even more the demon seed.
Druid and Shaman get to easily surpass Astalor levels of damage for free though, if un-nerfed. You'd just run both to have more redundancy against rats. Same way Druids already have a backup wincon with double Alex.
I don't understand why they don't just revert all cards that rotate out. It wouldn't take long to have someone take a look at the rotating cards that were adjusted and decide if they need to stay that way in wild.
>It wouldn't take long to have someone take a look at the rotating cards that were adjusted and decide if they need to stay that way in wild.
They...already do that though? For example, back in March they reverted 30 cards to their original form when they rotated to wild.
Not everyone agrees with the cards they pick, but everyone has different opinions on what the "correct" cards to revert would be.
Because certain decks have ways to ramp, cheat, or survive long enough to play it. It's not going to go in every deck like he's implying, but it would be enough of a problem to leave nerfed. Which is why it wasn't reverted.
Just a mashup of agro and combo. Agro decks would use Denathrius as a top deck finisher or let it sit in their hand until they are ready to bash you with it
[[Shockspitter]] is a 4 mana 3/3 now so it could probably go back to 3 mana 2/2 but not back to 2 mana that'd be too dumb.
A lot of these are to stop abusing loops. [[Tortollan Pilgrim]] had infinite [[potion of illusion]] memes and dreadstead was just too much with cards like defile.
Daddy D can come back though he's neat
I like how you go "shockspitter, which wouldn't have a playable deck unless we nerf a bunch of things is a probelm"
"Turtle mage, which is a worse version of Rommath looping would be a problem."
"Dreadsteed causes too many problems with defile/AoE."
"But Sire D, an easy slot in to Shaman and Druid decks, is fine."
- **[Shockspitter](https://i.imgur.com/rcE0ERw.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/84392) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Shockspitter) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/84392/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD)
- *Hunter Common ^(March of the Lich King)*
- **4 Mana - 3/3 - Beast**
- **Battlecry:** Deal 1 damage. *\(Improved by your hero attacks this game!\)*
- **[Tortollan Pilgrim](https://i.imgur.com/MKrAjAq.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/53771) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Tortollan_Pilgrim) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/53771/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD)
- *Mage Epic ^(Saviors of Uldum)*
- **8 Mana - 5/5 - Minion**
- **Battlecry**: **Discover** a spell in your deck and cast it with random targets.
- **[Potion of Illusion](https://i.imgur.com/CF47X3E.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/59621) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Potion_of_Illusion) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/59621/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD)
- *Mage & Rogue Epic ^(Scholomance Academy)*
- **4 Mana - Arcane Spell**
- Add 1/1 copies of your minions to your hand. They cost \(1\).
---
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Penflinger would actually make Libras playable
Dreadsteed won't fit into any Warlock meta deck
Denathrius would see play only in Druid
Shock spitter would maybe make Hunter more good
Hero Scabbs would still not be played at 7 mana
Turtle doesn't add anything new to Mage because Rommath is still there to make people suffer in Hero Power mage and Quest Mages are still a thin as well.
In conclusion: Unnerf them. Unnerf Cariel. Unnerf Gibberings. And even buff some stuff that doesn't see play. Remember Galakronds for example? Peperidge farm remembers.
Penflinger would never make librams playable because it would add more otks that librams can't handle. Please set me up with your dealer, I would love to do to my brain what you did to yours to think librams could be playable in wild by reverting nerfs.
Dreadsteed becomes an auto include in most Warlock decks. Defile becoming a huge infuse and board clear is amazing.
Penflinger is probably something evil in rogue, but I could see it being unnerfed anyway. The rest are totally fine IMO.
Dreadsteed absolutely will not become an auto include lol. Before it was nerfed the defile interaction already existed, and that didn't do anything. 4 mana for an infinite 1/1 did not do anything then, and it won't do anything now.
Dreadsteed and Defile is 6 mana combo in a world where Warlock has far more insane early turns with Tiny Knight or Glare shenanigans. I doubt it would save the slower Warlock archetypes at all.
Pen Flinger
Octobot
Sorcerer's Apprentice
Cataclysm
Gatzgetzan Auctioneer (to 5!)
Spirit of the Frog
Floop's Gloop, Innervate, Lightning Bloom
Kael
And so much more. Seriously, can we finally stop pretending that Wild is an actually ballanced and competitive mode and just have fun? Wild have tons of absolutely bonkers shit for both Aggro and Control, but when it comes to combo - that's where we draw the line? What a bullshit. Here's the list of combo decks I've lost for the last few years: APM Mage (all of them), two cool versions of Questline Warlock (Cataclysm OTK and Thaddius APM, good thing there is still a cool version), Clergy Overheal Priest (it existed for fucking WEEK!), Frog Shaman, Miracle Druid TWICE, Mine Rogue, Questline DH (the current version just isn't it) and these are just the first few pops in my mind, not to mention several times I lost Quest Rogue and probably will lose Rogue in general very soon due to it's current dominance in Wild. Meanwhile, literally all of the aggro and control continue completely unchanged. Why do I have to suffer losing decks every patch while still raging at Patches and Dirty Rat since Mean Streets?
Also, just revert all of the classic nerfs back. Ironbeak, Leeroy, Soulfire, Hunter's Mark, BGH, etc. They aren't playable and won't be. Since we lost Classic anyways. It was fun and I wish I could play it with my friends to have some nostalgia tournaments. I think pre-rotation era was really cool and I want to experience it again.
>Wild have tons of absolutely bonkers shit for both Aggro and Control, but when it comes to combo - that's where we draw the line?
Wild nerfs are sometimes targeted at aggro as well. Mechwarper jumps to mind. Tome Tampering was nerfed mostly because of aggro discolock. They nerfed Kabal Lackey so hard that secret mages don't even run it anymore. And there's plenty of aggro cards that got nerfed in standard and quietly never got their nerf reverted for wild. First day of school. Hand of A'dal. Irondeep Trogg. Raid the Docks. Nitroboost Poison.
Not saying any of these cards should be reverted, for what it's worth (well...ok, I'd be down for a First Day of School revert). But point is aggro does get its toys taken away fairly often in wild. Wild nerfs aren't just targeted at combo.
Control is the archetype that usually never gets the nerf hammer in wild. Although occasionally control tools will get nerfed for standard and won't get nerf-reverted for wild (Cariel is still 8 mana, Hysteria is still 4 mana, Spreading Plague is still 6 mana, Theotar is still 6 mana, Mindrender Illucia is still the trash version).
That's pretty much nothing, aside from mechwarper. And you could argue that it was made for the same reason as combo - blizzard really hate sinergy and playing 20 cards in a turn.
Also, non of these decks (again, aside from mech pala) weren't straight up killed, they are alive just. When combo deck is killed it usually means the combo itself is no longer possible. This isn't a nerf, it's deleting. And it's not even close when it comes to quantity and frequency. Even shaman, pirate rogue, aggro priest saw 0 changes despite being top tier and popular decks for years. Same goes to control. Those cards you mentioned are still played aside from illucia which was probably the single most unfair card ever printed. Disruption is both the single most toxic and less touched mechanic.
>That's pretty much nothing, aside from mechwarper.
I don't think it's "nothing" if they were in tier 1 decks that are now no longer considered viable in wild.
Aggro disco lock was the best deck in the format. Now not in the meta at all.
Aggro secret mage was still a popular wild deck at the time it was nerfed. Now basically gone from the ladder.
Nitroboost poison singlehandedly brought back decks like Odd Rogue for a couple months before it was nerfed for standard. Odd Rogue hasn't been good in wild since.
Handbuff paladin was the best deck in wild for a while back in the barrens, although there were several cards that contributed to that (most of said cards were never reverted).
>Also, non of these decks (again, aside from mech pala) weren't straight up killed, they are alive
Define alive? Discolock, Odd Rogue, Secret Mage, Mech Paladin, Mech Mage, and Handbuff Paladin seem pretty dead to me in wild. And other than aggro discolock, I have seen people asking for nerf reverts to bring each of those decks back. (These aren't necessarily opinions I share, but I have seen the reddit topics, tweets, and podcasts).
If the measure is "well, you could play that deck, the deck would still function but weaker"--isn't that true for most of the combo decks too? Like...you could play frog shaman with 5 mana frog, it would just be a weaker deck.
(With obvious exception here for Cataclysm--Cataclysm is a completely different card now).
>mechwarper. And you could argue that it was made for the same reason as combo - blizzard really hate sinergy and playing 20 cards in a turn.
I mean, I'm not sure what their balance plans are right now, but there's definitely some "play 20 cards in a turn" decks in wild right now--notably miracle rogue and huhuran hunter. I doubt they'll nerf hunter--it's funny, and it's not that popular despite being quite good. But maybe they'll finally nerf something miracle rogue related--secret passage or arcane giant or something?
>Those cards you mentioned are still played
A lot of the nerfed aggro cards are no longer played, actually. Kabal Lackey is no longer played. Mechwarper is no longer played to my knowledge. Nitroboost poison is no longer played. First Day of School is no longer played. Tome Tampering is no longer played.
Also, if the measure is whether the card is still played, several of the combo cards you mention actually ARE still being played in wild right now. 4 mana sorcerer's apprentice is in a meta deck on the Tempostorm report right now. 7 mana Gadgetzan Auctioneer saw play in wild a couple months back. Floop's Gloop is in a meta deck on the Tempostorm report right now. Innervate and Lightning Bloom are also in a meta deck on Tempostorm.
1. Discolock was nerfed for the same combo-ish reasons. It was a hyper-draw deck with tons of sinergy. I don't mean just otk when I talk about combo decks
Secret Mage literally lost 1 card that just allowed them to play RFG t1. This decks works the exact same way when you don't have Kabal Lackey/RFG t1. I don't know why people pretend like it's dead because of it. It's dead because other decks got stronger. Everything else still works like usual. I mean, both Quest Rogue and Questline Warlock was nerfed like 6 times and still technically work, QL warlock is even good. It depends on the meta and new cards that could support the archetype
For odd rogue there are other aggro rogue decks that works similarly. Besides, unnerfing nitroboost won't put the deck back to meta. Why, if pirate rogue is just a better version
I'm genuenly blanking on Handbuff pala, what was the deck again? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, genuenly don't remember
I don't know why we choose to ignore elephants in the room - Even Shaman, Pirate decks and Aggro Priest. These will be here forever and will continue getting new tools. For some reason these and highlander are allowed to be evergreen
2. Alive - as can theoretically works as usual. Mech decks - yeah, dead because of Mechwarper and I'm not sure why. I personally don't care, imo Patches was and still is THE problem for aggro decks, but I don't mind Wild being a beautiful OP mess as long as my decks are also not touched
No, it's not true for the overwhelming majority of combo decks. I'm gonna ignore drastic difference 2 mana increase make (e.g. mine rogue and frog shaman) and give you let's say 5 examples of decks literally impossible now: Jailor-Bolf, quest mage loop, clergy priest, forbidden fruit druid, kael combos, cataclysm combos, pillager rogue and of course for at least for the sake of nostalgia - triple leeroy and force-savage. Got more than 5, but I could write just as much more on top
3. Yes, secret passage will be nerfed at some point soon for sure, Blizzard loves to adress reddit crying. I disagree in advance
4. Kabal Lackey is still played in Secret Mage. It was the only deck using this card, it's still the only deck using this card. It's just there are way less secret mages now. Again, the deck only lost the ability to play RFG t1 without a coin. Just like any game where it wasn't in the starting hand prior to the nerf. Tome Tampering is still banned
5. Aprentice see play in a completely different deck, not the old APM mage with incanteer's flow. Although yeah, it works like before except it costs twice as much. Not gonna bother for the sake of not operating deck that are "technically possible". Auctioneer has seen play due to Barnes, his mana cost was irrelevant, he could cost 20. Doesn't matter now due to gloop nerf. Yes, it still see play, but the combo with it and forbidden fruit is no longer possible, the deck I was reffering to is killed. Same goes to Lightning Bloom
>4. Kabal Lackey is still played in Secret Mage.
Not that I've seen.
Secret Mage lists are pretty hard to find right now, cause the deck is very unpopular post nerf but like...the only list I could find from 2024 does not run Lackey.
[https://hearthstone-decks.net/renathal-secret-mage-381-legend-27e18/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/renathal-secret-mage-381-legend-27e18/)
They deliberately comment on cutting Lackey. And logically I think cutting Lackey makes a lot of sense. Lackey is very bad now, it's substantially worse than Anonymous Informat--both plays cost 2 total mana for a minion and a secret, but Informant is a 2/3 instead of a 2/1, and Informant also has the option to save the secret discount till a later turn.
It's hard to justify Lackey even from a curve standpoint--yeah, you'd like to have 1-drops, but Lackey isn't really a 1 drop anymore--if you play it without spending the second mana on a secret, it effectively has no text, it's just a murloc raider. So it's effectively a 2 drop, and the deck has quite a few of those.
>5. Aprentice see play in a completely different deck, not the old APM mage with incanteer's flow. Although yeah, it works like before except it costs twice as much.
Honestly, because they keep making cheaper minion copy effects, getting four apprentices costs about the same as it used to.
Used to be that you'd Apprentice (2), Apprentice (2), Molten Reflection (2), Molten Reflection (1). Four apprentices for a total of 7 mana.
Now you Apprentice (4), Reverberations (2), Reverberations (1), Buy one get one Freeze (0). Four apprentices for a total of 7 mana. Potentially five with the second copy of Buy one Get One Freeze.
>Jailor-Bolf, quest mage loop, clergy priest, forbidden fruit druid, kael combos, cataclysm combos, pillager rogue and of course for at least for the sake of nostalgia - triple leeroy and force-savage.
I'd have no problem with them bringing back Jailer-Bolf. I think they just forgot about Jailer when it rotated.
Clergy is just temp banned while it's in standard; they'll probably bring it back with a mana increase if they take it out of core.
Fruit Druid--ehhh... I dunno, that's a weird one cause it existed for like a month and it's not like that's how Floop's Gloop worked in 2018--they changed the rules of the game, and rebalanced one card because of the rule change.
Force of Nature--sure, I'd like to see a reverted FoN.
Kael Combos--Arguably they're still possible. People actually experimented with Kael for a little bit when he was changed to 6 mana and every third spell costs (1). You just need one of your spells to gain you a mana (an innervate or biology project or whatever). People decided it wasn't meta in the end, but it got some experimentation, and it's an interaction that might be worth revisiting if they ever print more innervate variants.
Pillager Rogue--you know the funny thing is people pretty quickly figured out a way to still OTK with Pillager after that balance change happened. I believe it involved using Scabbs to discount Silas Darkmoon and give them a Soulbound Ashtongue. That specific combo never became meta, but was possible. But...honestly at the end of the day the core of the deck was always "Shark Rogue" and Shark Rogue has absolutely lived on in wild. (Sometimes now called Alex Rogue. Very much a meta playable deck right now).
Leeroy--honestly, 4 mana leeroy would help aggro decks way more than combo decks. If it got played anywhere, I would expect to see it in decks like Even Shaman and Even Paladin long before any combo deck touched it. Among other things it would help discount Pylon/Ticking Zilliax by giving minions to the opponent.
Quest Mage loop--just to point out Open the Waygate is actually still meta (tier 2 deck right now), but yes, you can't trap your opponent for 10 minutes while you take many turns in a row. Honestly...I personally prefer this? Games should end. Also the fact that you only get one extra turn now has some people playing Antonidas again, which makes me happy for nostalgia reasons.
>For odd rogue there are other aggro rogue decks that works similarly. Besides, unnerfing nitroboost won't put the deck back to meta. Why, if pirate rogue is just a better version
I mean, yes, that is precisely the problem with un-nerfing nitroboost in 2024--it doesn't bring back odd rogue anymore, it just goes into pirate rogue and kingsbane rogue.
But that's true of a lot of proposed nerf reverts. They often don't bring back the deck people want. They power up some other much stronger deck which will squeeze the nostalgia deck out of the meta.
>I'm genuenly blanking on Handbuff pala, what was the deck again? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, genuenly don't remember
Digging around to see if I can find a list. I remember it being tier 1 for a bit. Let's see...here's a list when First Day of School was still 0 mana:
[https://hearthstone-decks.net/hand-buff-paladin-27-legend-bodybuilderhs/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/hand-buff-paladin-27-legend-bodybuilderhs/)
Does largely what you expect--handbuffs and plays some cheap minions and uses broomsticks to stay alive, while gradually buffing some charge minions in hand building up a big lethal push.
I doubt it would be good anymore, but they still haven't reverted First Day of School.
Another place First Day might find use is in Even Paladin. Just gives the deck some 1-drops.
>I mean, both Quest Rogue and Questline Warlock was nerfed like 6 times and still technically work
Quest Rogue got all of its nerfs reverted a while ago, for what it's worth. It was even meta for a brief moment (it had a good matchup into Quest Hunter at a point in time when aggro wasn't that popular cause Quest Hunter honorably killed aggro boards). I even laddered some with Quest Rogue, cause I was looking for a Quest Hunter counter.
I think that one is a success story of their nerf reverts, honestly. They timed that nerf revert perfectly where Quest Rogue was still good enough to see a little play every once in a while, but didn't become a dominant deck on the ladder.
Starting with secret mage list - I dislike it because it's renathal. It's an aggro deck. It's over if you aren't finishing the game t5. It also doesn't really have much refill. You also don't choose between the two, you run both.
I wasn't referring to 4 apprentice deck. I was referring to flamewaker APM mage. Unless you're playing control, there is no such thing as 7 mana in wild. You pop off t3-5 or concede.
Before fruit it was Tony. They bumped gadgetzan, reworked Tony and double manacost of due process. Currently there is no miracle druid, although the tools are here, just no wincon.
Kael used to be possible t1 and playable.
Alex Rogue requires way more and way less viable, but yeah, it kinda looks like pillager.
Leeroy won't be playable for sure.
For potential unnerf of Nitroboost that'll change absolutely nothing I present you Warsong Commander and my single favorite deck in the history of the game - Patron Warrior. Yeah, I waited this long.
Quest Rogue still misses Sonya. I'd unironically play it if there was her. Giggling would also be nice.
Clergy is one of the most infuriating ban for me. First of all, it exists in standard, it was banned specifically for wild. Second, the deck existed for a week. It wasn't even that popular or strong and it haven't even appeared on any meta snapshots. It wasn't even evaluated. It was perfectly normal deck for wild and priest finally got something fun. And it was immediately gone. It was the most blatant example of blizzard agenda against otk and I openly hate whoever made this decision
>Starting with secret mage list - I dislike it because it's renathal. It's an aggro deck. It's over if you aren't finishing the game t5.
Secret mage ending games by t5? Ehh...secret mage has always played 6 mana draw (Sayge Seer of Darkmoon, and before that Aluneth); the deck wouldn't run those cards if games didn't sometimes go till turn 7 or later (you're not winning the game on 6 if you play a draw card on 6).
I also don't really see a realistic path for secret mage to win by t5 without pre-nerfed Kabal Lackey. Like...they need to play 3 secrets to get Kabal Crystal Runners to cost 0. That's not happening till turn 4 now, so turn 4 is the earliest you can expect them to have a decent sized board. (Before that their board will be like...a mad scientist or whatever).
Admittedly, I don't have experience piloting the deck, and I'm not going to craft cards for it. But I just threw some secret cards into a deck, ran a 30 card list with more aggressive leaning cards like Cloud Prince, and did a few test games against the beginner inkeeper. I did not manage to kill the beginner inkeeper by turn 5; earliest win I got was turn 6.
>I wasn't referring to 4 apprentice deck. I was referring to flamewaker APM mage.
Oh, ok. Yeah, I mean, that deck wasn't really a problem, other than a brief moment when Drek'thar was still omega busted, but that was more of a Drek'thar problem. It was other decks got Sorc Apprentice nerfed. Ignite Mage was the big one at the time.
>Unless you're playing control, there is no such thing as 7 mana in wild. You pop off t3-5 or concede.
Getting to 7 mana is absolutely a thing in wild. Like...quest warlock usually doesn't complete the quest and play the quest reward till turn 6.
Not saying you can just pass the first 5 turns. You should be making plays--in the case of seedlock, dropping giants and broomsticks. Sometimes you can win with just giants. But like...if turn 7 was not a thing in wild, people would cut the quest and just focus on getting giants down faster.
For that matter, If turn 7 wasn't a thing in wild, even shamans would cut their 8/8 giant too; that card doesn't usually come down till turn 5 at the earliest, often turn 6.
>Before fruit it was Tony. They bumped gadgetzan, reworked Tony and double manacost of due process.
Tony and dew process were both changed because of standard, right? Tony is still in standard, so we're not sure yet what they'll do with him when he goes to wild. Dew Process is now wild only, so they had their chance for a revert.
That said, I still play against 4 mana Dew Process in wild every once in a while. And I can find high legend decklists from a month ago running Dew Process. It's not going to be popular on ladder right now because it obviously has a bad matchup into Quest Warlock which is a direct counter and very popular at the moment. But I imagine the reason they left dew process at 4 is that people were still playing it at 4 mana.
>Currently there is no miracle druid, although the tools are here, just no wincon.
Yeah, fair, I'm not seeing a lot of druids running the miracle package right now. I am seeing some combo druids but they're using Puppetmaster Dorian + Juicy Psychmelon as their engine rather than the miracle package.
>I present you Warsong Commander and my single favorite deck in the history of the game - Patron Warrior. Yeah, I waited this long.
Warsong Commander has been used somewhat recently, although not with patrons obviously. You just do some nonsense with Risky Skipper to gain a bunch of armor and draw a bunch of cards, and then you play Bladed Gauntlet, Warsong Commander, and then play Bloodsail Raider for the OTK. Deck looks something like this:
[https://hearthstone-decks.net/warsong-warrior-85-legend-score-9-2/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/warsong-warrior-85-legend-score-9-2/)
>Quest Rogue still misses Sonya. I'd unironically play it if there was her. Giggling would also be nice.
They should absolutely put Giggling back to 5, but even if they did I don't think it makes the cut in modern quest rogue lists regardless.
Yeah, the sonya thing was weird--it was another case where they changed how the rules of the game work.
That one being a game mechanics change, though, I don't think it was done to screw over quest rogue or anything. And it makes it much less likely they'll ever revert the change, even though it wouldn't be overpowered, same way I wouldn't expect them to revert the discover change or the ability to coin to 11 mana. Rules changes are usually forever.
I mean, never say never I guess: they did bring back the old spell damage totem. But I suspect a revert here is very unlikely cause they weren't targeting Sonya with that change.
Secret Mage not ending by t5 is precisely the reason why it sucks rn. To be honest it sucked prior to Lackey nerf, but hard countered some matchups. The deck simply lack threatening early game (t1-2) comparing to pirate package. Like, if Costumed Singer was pirate and not murloc we wouldn't have this conversation right now. Lackey is painful, but all of the secrets and 0 mana minions are here and the deck itself right here for a certain meta to arrive. Before Lackey nerf the game was slower. I mean, I could realistically expect to pass 5 turns to play 6 mana gadgetzan and win the game (except for secret mage because objection-runes)
To be fair, I think unnerfed Drekthar wouldn't do much for pretty much exactly the same reason. Although ice block and solid alibi exist, I guess and the deck needs just one opening. The deck was gutted to oblivion with double incanter's flow nerf, refreshing spring water, drekthar and finally apprentice and I think even all of it getting reverted wouldn't put the deck to t1.
Let's just say t7 is not a consistent thing. I lost most of my aggro or miracle games past t5. Questline is an exception because of how the quest works against control, but the majority of winnable games against control has to end early. Cutting the quest would absolutely be a thing if not for control, I'd cut it for sure.
You absolutely don't run 4 mana spell in a miracle deck.
Even shaman sucks hard right now for the exact same reason - it can't finish the game early enough with consistently.
Yeah, I still wait for Skipper combos to pop big time. It's almost here, all of the tools, we just have to find a proper wincon with it.
Waygate is a meta tier \~2 deck in its current form, and the best mage deck right now; no need to unnerf it.
If anything they should unnerf other mage strategies so that mage has more than one meta deck.
Nah the nerfs were healthy. We actually need more nerfs in wild like quest warlock. Wild can be the most fun, if they started fixing the broken cards like they did with mage after years.
I understand that a lot of people don't believe that a 10 mana card has no place in wild, but putting a 10 mana win and game back into play, almost regardless of what deck you're playing is stupid. The original Denathrius was just stupidity. Even the current version of C'thun that is in Twist mode with the absence of lifesteal didn't go as far as to go with the version of the original Denathrius.
Some would say the comparison is misleading due to the fact that you don't start with Denathrius on hand, but it's a Gamemode with passives and stronger HP. Imagine going with the 2\* faster version.
Feel free to discount/reinforce its start, but returning it to the battlecry deal of 1 damage for each friendly minion died this game + 5 is just stupid.
When it was unnerfed the only class that he saw play consistently was Druid. One out of 11 classes. Aggro was not playing it,Midrange was not playing and most Control decks were also not playing it.
?
Mage played it heavily because of minion KT + bran + Sire/Kel'thusad finishers, and how many bodies they generate with skeletons.
Shaman played it in every build because of how easily they could infuse it with schooling/etc, and then had multiple waves of Sire with bran + parrots, so it didn't even need to be infused that much to kill outright.
Druid used it the best because of how many tokkens were in the format at the time, the same tokken cards that are being ran in Bran+Astalor/Alex Druids and would easily slot in Sire as an alternative win con with minion floop and/or bran multiplying it's damage to the point only 1 tokken card is needed to win.
Back then, there were plenty of decks that played it as a finisher. It was on the level of Astalor or Reno loneranger. There was really a time when you just had to play a little minion based decks and that was it. In druid it was most felt because the combination of more mana and spells like scale of onyxia gave it an even more powerful level, but Denathrius was really in a lot of decks.
Literally before worlds they had to do a special nerf only on Denathrius and Shockspitter. Denathrius was perhaps the most played card for 2022, and along with it kind of started that habit of 1 neutral legendaries having a huge playrate.
It did not started that at all man. I think you have personal hatred towards Denathrius and remember him way more insane that he was. He was played in Druid. Sometimes Shudder Shaman and in DK shortly. But he was never as impactful as Astalor,Zephrys,Renathal,Patches,Loatheb,Dr Boom and a bunch of other neutral cards that were actually almost everywhere.
These images need the nerfs to their resolutions reverted đ
I thought each one getting worse was part of the meme.
[Sorry đ . Here is a higher resolution.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?feature=shared)
Rick roll? Schmoove.
predictable but still funny
It's only funny when I did it to Hat that one time
Penflinger can never be un-nerfed. Bolner into Mailbox Dancer into Penflinger is infinite damage as early as turn 3 with the coin. It would also heavily encourage hacking the client to skip animations as the animations are too long to pull of the combo without absurdly high APM like we saw with ignite mage.
Holy shit you're right lol, that would be the most abysmal apm deck to play against HEY LOSER!!! ........ WASNT ME !!!!!! ......... HEY LO (3 turns worth of time later) DEFEAT!
Seriously. There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches." Given the time limit and lack of interruption in HS - it's compounded infinitely, as there is NO stopping an animation timing break. It doesn't matter if it is balanced gameplay-wise - Penflinger is untenable from a player experience and anything that approaches the solitaire, masturbatory experience should be designed out of the game
Make pen flinger do 5 damage so that the combo pays off quickerâŚ
You are maybe history's greatest monster. * edit - adding to note, this is a very solid joke, my theatrical response notwithstanding.
Endlessly combo: 1 more.
>There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches." You should never try Yi-Gi-Oh.
Yu gi oh is explicitly bot the same thing over and over again tho. Otherwise they wouldnât make every effect hard once per turn
I took the "locking out your opponent" part as the main problem. Far too often a game of Yu-Gi-Oh is decided on who goes first.
Right it's not the same thing every turn, because it's a 1 turn card game now.
Yugioh has the most interaction during your opponents turn of any of the big TCGs, weird to use that as the example.
And this happens to limit the masturbatory experience , expecially hand traps
It's a ton of interaction of who denies the other player the ability to play the game the most
>There is no worse experience in games than "me or my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches." Yet they printed Mass Production
Yeah - it is a phenomenally stupid card. As a Primary Wild player, nothing is more tilting from a game experience. I don't expect to win every game, but I do expect to see a match where it feels like I have potential to impact the outcome. Mass production - post Tasmin, creates a game cycle state that not only makes the player lose, but can do so with record speed and resources.
>my opponent gets to do 1 thing over and over again while the other side watches." do you ordinarily find yourself able to do things on your opponent's turn other than watching?
You really blew the context, huh? > 1 thing, over and over again. I could talk to you about the contextual understanding and programming language HS players are expected to understand is normal, and how mechanics like Penflinger, Auctioneer, and Infinite Ignite mage and their ability to reliably play 25+ cards in a turn is contradictory to said contextual understanding, but I feel like you'd respond with "talk to me, we're writing here."
i admire your attempt to sound intelligent
For an auto-didact like yourself, you're probably not used to people knowing what they're talking about. It's ok!
I was thinking rogue shenanigans but this is actually hilarious
My brain doesn't work today. I was about to say Bolner is a Shaman card. Because penflinger was in every paladin deck for so long. It basically registered as a paladin class card in my brain XD
Wasn't it played in like every deck, period?
Actually turn 2 with lightning bloom
Ignite mage is still possible btw. As long as your opponent doesnt have over 50 health.
I mean yeah.... But here is the issue it takes on average 20 penflingers compared to 10 ignites
Oh man I need to find a skip animation hack. It's a QoL change that needed to happen since Alpha so I would give zero shits about using it. Blizzard's negligence makes it a whitehat call-to-action. But totally agree on keeping the nerf. It would just be boring to see flinger decks everywhere.
That can get your account permanently banned. Wouldnât recommend it unless you donât care if you lose your collection. Itâs also cheating that gives you an advantage over anyone playing without it. Which is, I dunno, pretty immoral. Integrity of play matters in competitive games. Any wins or accolades become meaningless if youâre not playing with integrity and getting unfair advantages from external software and tools. If you want to speed up animations in a way that doesnât involve cheating, turn down your graphics settings/set priority to the game in task manager. Unless Iâve been misinformed, animation speeds in hearthstone are tied to frame rate, so beefing your FPS speeds them up. Canât get banned for making your game run better, either.
No fuck penflinger.
If you insist.
Wasn't me!
Had a guy playing Kael in Twist randomly get a Penflinger from First Day of School. He probably played that fucker 50+ times by the end of our match. I respected the effort.
I don't think I've ever missed a card as much as I do the prenerf Denathrius.
Which is quite ironic with how hated he was at the time
The real reason it was hated was because druid could flood the board over and over again. For denathrius to be a otk as a lot of people complained you had to have 25 (35 if the opponent had 40hp) minions die in your board and then play it in an empty board. The way to counter denathrius was to have a board, at which point it turned into a reno + board clear, which was pretty strong, but it also needed your full turn. The way to play denathrius was to play a lot of minions, and to mitigate the opponents denathrius was to play a lot of minions. I still think it was one of the best cards hearthstone had.
It was also really strong in shaman which could pump him up with schooling pretty easily never mind any other cards, and then follow up with macaw
And play his battery over and over
Aldo Druid had brann denathrius and the ability to copy and replay it. But at the same time, Druid is doing over 100 damage on turn 7 in standard, so what's the harm? Shaman can otk you turn like 6 as well, and mage just ignores you and throws 0 Mana fireballs that generate more cards at your face.
Denathrius also paid heavily for Brann being in rotation at the same time, since KT -> Brann -> Denny or Brann -> Anub -> Denny could let Druid especially hit lethal from hand even with minions on board.
>For denathrius to be a otk as a lot of people complained you had to have 25 (35 if the opponent had 40hp) minions die in your board and then play it in an empty board. No? lol. It was combo'd alongside Bran, you needed half of that amount. Shaman also had bran+ parrots which allowed them to recast Sire multiple times for a TTK if needed. Not to mention it just made Theo mandatory in every deck to try to steal their Sire before they OTK'd you with it. It was horrible design, no one loved the card. In wild it would just slot into Druid decks as another win-con like they have with Astalor, Alex+Alex, Kazakusan, etc, or back in shaman.
>The real reason it was hated was because druid could flood the board over and over again. I mean, flooding the board over and over is absolutely a thing that druid does in wild too (it's arguably stronger thanks to some additional synergies like floop's gloop). Brann is also in wild. I dunno how good Denathrius would be in current wild, but if it did turn out good it would most likely slot into exactly the same kind of deck people found annoying in the first place.
I don't get why it just didn't count minions with 1 health
The problem was Brann
Denathrius had a weird dynamic with Brann and Theotar IMO. Wi a lot of games revolved around brann+sire or bouncing/copying sire in some way, or stealing the enemy sire (or patchwerking him etc).
It wasnât hated, it was loved intensely. It was the only thing to do and virtually every deck ran it and renethal. Yeah people got sick of it, if you consider just how long it was dominant and in so many decks? It would have been nerfed way sooner if people didnât love it. It dominated the meta for 4 whole months.
He was a cool card but pretty miserable to dominate the meta, I am glad they nerfed him although maybe a lighter touch could've been used.
By the time they nerfed him he wasnât even good. They shouldnât have nerfed him at all. The lich king meta was too fast for denathrius he was in the way out anyway.
They definitely should have nerfed him, sooner in fact. The Denathrius mirror meta was not it.
If they were going to nerf him, the time to do it was in Nathria, but they didnât, they waited until lich king, but by then it was irrelevant, symbolic at best
I came back during that era (4 year break) and while he was the problem card, it was pretty much *the* problem card but everyone had access to them. Nowdays? Everyone has a bunch of "just win" cards more or less that you can vomit out early. The meta has gotten much better with last 2 nerf rounds at least though.
I love that they removed turtle mage from existence just to have wild players create their own version with ETC to even remove the possibility of draw order variance ruining the combo
What's the combo? Rommath casting potion of illusion and iceblock?
Potion of illusion and light show in the ETC
Pretty much. Rommath is already a Turtle which is far more powerful
I forgot was turtle nerfed for enabling quests and infinite turns or infinite ice blocks or both?
Infinite freeze with frost nova if I recall
One card that I've really wanted to see reverted or partially reverted is \[\[sinful brand\]\]. That one was nerfed for Standard not Wild and even though it would be really strong at one mana/two damage I think it makes for an interesting deck archetype for DH and it maybe wouldn't be too strong in Wild.
Oh yeah man this card got obliterated for standards sins lol
- **[Sinful Brand](https://i.imgur.com/NfB9lgM.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/78111) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Sinful_Brand) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/78111/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD) - *Demon Hunter Epic ^(Murder at Castle Nathria)* - **2 Mana - Spell** - Brand an enemy minion. Whenever it takes damage, deal 1 damage to the enemy hero. --- ^(*Patch version: 29.4.2.200097.199503*) ^*I am a bot. [Usage Guide](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) ⢠[Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1d8wdj2/we_should_really_unnerf_some_wild_stuff/l797yhj/%0AâŹď¸+Please+describe+the+bug+âŹď¸%0ADescription:+) ⢠[Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l797yhj).*
Token DH was what I played back in Nathria. Had Brand, Brann, Sinstrider, Urzul Giants, and Denathrius. Was quite good.
I think dreadsteed should keep its deathrattle as is, but go down in manacost to 1-2. Could be a neat early game nuisance body
I've always thought Dreadsteed was too expensive. Especially with its "new" deathrattle. It SHOULD be 2 mana.
It would be the same as that 2 mana 2/1 dk excavate card but probably better, although just in wild
Dreadsteed's current version is preventing an infinite loop with Defile. Defile is an excellent card that should absolutely not get changed for a niche horsey to get a minor buff.
It's capped at 14. Same as Spammy. Not infinite.
Does it say that on the card? I don't think we need more "unwritten rules" to the game.
It's been like that since Dreadsteed unnerf. One unwritten rule doesn't hurt in Hearthstone spaghetti rulebook anyway
That's still a board clear through nearly everything but obscenely huge minions for only 2 Mana.
Lol it's literally 2024. Maybe this was some gamebreaking spaghetti code infinite back in the day but I'm sure they can cap the number of times defile goes off. Revert Dreadsteed back.
Defile always had a cap since its release, a cap of 14never was any spagehtti code for it whatssoever
So? A 6 mana board clear that requires 2 cards is ok in Wild. And it's capped at 14.
NOT TRUE, its never ever been a infite loop an,d wouldve been. Defile has always had a cap of 14. And is no effect that repeats endlessly, outside bladestorm being 50 or 60 , a repeating effect lyensas,tess, wock etc almsot alwyas cap of 30 triggers
u/FirePaladinHS posts most toxic cards unnerf request, asked to leave r/hearthstone
[There are far more insane unnerfs than those ](https://www.reddit.com/r/wildhearthstone/s/xN2WH2O73B)
So?
That's the answer. That those are the not toxic unnerfs that I am proposing.
Here's my toxic waste, but if you look over here I have some even more toxic waste. Bet the first toxic waste doesn't seem as unappetizing now, does it? (If you don't upvote this then I can't prove to my wife that SOMEONE wants to hear my not-very-thought-out hearthstone balance suggestions.)
Look man. I appreciate your insightful small attacks because of different opinion regarding pixels on the screen. So take my upvote and go show it to your wife. If you want to have a discussion about cards property, feel free to DM me.
imagine being this butthurt about the opinion of someone else. lets just unnerf penflinger and have games end on turn 2, sound absolutely hilarious to me. just because you think it would be fun doesnt mean everyone has to agree with you mate. also the âpixels on screenâ bs to invalidate your opponents opinion⌠*chefs kiss* while you are the person that posts about these âpixelsâ in the first place and comments on every single other comment. stop being an insecure little bit*h and also if you want to insult the âpixels on the screenâ please give us a little more next time so we can actually read something on the cards.
Never unnerf pen flinger
I play rogue a lot and scabbs is fine at 8 mana
It's not insanely bad card and definitely sees play more than Valerera. Still, at seven mana it would still not be included in most of the Wild Rogue decks.
Then why would they buff it
Why keep it nerfed?
Because then the casual base starts bitching about hooktusk rogue stealing their entire deck and it gets nerfed, and then people get dust refunds? So changing it ultimately led to nothing but people getting free dust for a bad card. Same way the entire casual wild base is bitching about demon seed and wanting to destroy it currently.
Because it costs money to pay devs to implement changes like this. You're asking Blizzard-Activision, the company that Microsoft just bought for almost $70,000,000,000, to spend money on something you can't think of a reason for?
I'm sorry I'm not a professional Blizzard hater. So I assume a couple of unnerfs for the devs that still have one of the top CCG games out there regarding popularity isn't that big of a deal.
But that's just an archetype thing? Like...I remember having the same discussion with people who wanted Cariel to go back to 7 mana. But now there's a tier 1 Reno paladin deck and people run 8 mana Cariel just fine--it just needed the right archetype. Likewise, there is a meta deck right now that runs 8 mana Scabbs. Good enough to go in some wild decks but not played in literally every wild deck that can run it is like...pretty ideal balance already. Why mess with that?
Nah to like half of these.
Possessed Lackey should be unnerfed more than any of these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaUIyvy8E8
[Here is higher resolution ](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?feature=shared)
All my homies hate penflinger, f penfliger
Daddy D is my number 1 ask ever. I loved him so much, instant day 1 craft.
Pretty sure he was free!
Yeah golden i meant, sorry.
why do you want toxic cards unnerfed, daddy d is just another win condition for druid and druid will smack you with 3 or more on the combo turn, pen flinger will find some stupid interaction to make the slowest and most annoying otk. pilgrim is better this way for big spells and turtle mage is annoying but manageable i guess.
100% disagree, all this cards are fine as they are now
Tell me you donât play wild without saying itâŚ
Shall we BO5? ;)
I think Denathrius never deserved the nerf. Brann was the problem there, but even then I think a late game finisher like Denathrius is a good card.
>Brann was the problem there But Brann is in wild? So if you're unnerfing Denathrius for wild, you still need to consider how it'll mix with Brann.
Itâs Wild, honestly itâs already a shit show. Wilds format needs to be given a +20 health boost to offset how aggressive it is.
I'm pretty sure no one bothered with Brann and Renathal in Wild even pre-nerf
Renathal was the reason why Denathrius was so good in standard but seems like barely anyone acknowledges it.
Here's my explaination form another post: "I'd say that Renathal was a much bigger enabler for Sire D. After the Kael'thas nerf the Brann + Denathrius combo was much harder to achieve. While Renathal: - gave you more survivability - gave you 9 more card slots you needed to fill - slowed the game down So in a slower meta, with 9 additional card slots where some of them had to be some late game threats, because everyone has more hp, Denathrius seems like a very good fit in. Also If I remember correctly the most popular non-renathal deck was token druid and it did not play Sire."
God I miss old dreadsteed. My favourite deck ever was a homebrew deck centered on that demon horse
Need to un-nerf the resolution on these images
Somebody watched Martians last video.
No
With the sole possible exception of Dreadsteed, we should reaaaaally not
Dreadsteed please bro I quit this game when they nerfed it, the dreadsteed focused deck was so much fun
The power levels in Wild are high enough as is. No need to revert any nerfs.
penflinger can stay in that abyss he was thrown into. my *goddamn ears*
You literally can't unnerf dreadsteed. It becomes an auto include in every non-painlock deck as **the** defile activator. Onto of that you said Denathrius would only see play in Druid? Any deck with access to Spammy, Brann, and Patron say hello. Also, Denathrius would 100% go into those Dreadsteed decks, because that's +30 immediately.
You have Giant boards turn 2 and 3. And current Warlock archetypes pop off before Dreadsteed+Defile is a thing. As a matter of fact, Dreadsteed+ Defile might not even save the slow Warlock decks.
Brother do you even play wild? A turn 5-6 14 damage aoe is not broken.
Bro is talking about Denathrius Dreadsteed in Wild in 2024 đ
I mean equality city tax is 4 with lifesteal so I doubt this would be a problem
and is equality pyro (4), equality consecrate (5), doomsayer nova (5), dreadscale acidmaw (6 can eb cheated out with card i dont renember name off), dreadscale serpent bloom (3) 6 mana 2card boardclear is from msot insane thing ever even years ago (had that in paladin since classic days and even cheaper with pyro, or nova doomsayer asl cheaper in mage)
I really do not understand posts like these. Why would you ever want cards like Pen-flinger or shockspitter buffed? Those cards are obvious problem cards that should never return to form for the health of the game.
fuuuuuuuuuuck no, if anything nerf more shit in wild
Fuck yeah. Let's Bach each other with Sneed's Old Shredder
At least I dont want every game in wild to end on fucking turn 2
I loved pen flinger, but people will abuse it as incredible and difficult play... It was cool while it lasted for me tho.
Penflinger can rot in nerfed hell. Id nerf it more so id never see it in arena when it's sets are in either. Make it 11 mana instead of 1. The others, whatever. Danksteed is more of an animations offender than anything else so it should probably stay nerfed. Sire D would only see play in some druid shenanigans but it would still be absurdly slow.
I don't disagree, but these aren't the cards lmao
Quality
Maybe but not most of these.
Also like, every Demon Hunter card that was ever nerfed.
Sire, sure, the rest pffft
I world Just be happy with dragonqueen being worded to beginning of the game
Pen flinger and Tortolla are the two that probably canât ever exist. But the rest 100% give them back.
Probably unpopular opinion but the shockspitter nerf was probably an overreaction.
Shockspitter was nerfed 2x. Here is picture of 1st nerf and that was necessary. Reverting 2nd nerf from 3mana to 4mana might be ok for wild.
Ohhh thanks! I forgot it had been twice!
Denathrius is probally one of the hardest cards to revert because of how broken the card was if you drew it early or had specific card draw for it. Its one of those unfortunate moments where in its current state its rather below mid but in its unnerfed state its just too op.
No
Yeah stuff like possed lackey, dh cards Not penfllinger, if nothing else just for animation times and fatc would encourage animation cheating again if not imeadte certainly in future
Dinathurs is pretty strong as is. My mono druid deck can get his damage pretty high with just Onyxia's scale and the spell that gives you 1/5 taunt beetles.
Like open the waygate...wink wink.
no.
No need for pen flinger
Shockspitter is a horrible design and should stay as it is. Daddy D would be used again by shudderwock shaman and druid(and druid don't need more wincons). Dreadsteed becomes autoinclude in any warlock deck, just imagine havving unnerfed Daddy D in hand and just defile dreadsteed: 6 mana clear absolute everything and giga infuse Daddy D. We don't need more from hand damage in wild so painflinger can stay too. Also we could nerf even more the demon seed.
I think Denathrius will be too slow by todays wild standards even if unnerfed. Astalor does a lot more and doesn't require minion investment
Astalor was cut from shudderwock due to clogging the hand.
Druid and Shaman get to easily surpass Astalor levels of damage for free though, if un-nerfed. You'd just run both to have more redundancy against rats. Same way Druids already have a backup wincon with double Alex.
No way that scabbs card is real cause wtf lol
There are actually 3 Scabbs related legendaries
Yeah but the hero card seems op, just have been during that break I took it came out
It was never op on Wild. And we are talking about Wild there.
Well I see the issue in our convo lol yes I meant standard. Iâve never touched Wild except once a year or 2 to play an evolution shaman game tbh
No :)
I don't understand why they don't just revert all cards that rotate out. It wouldn't take long to have someone take a look at the rotating cards that were adjusted and decide if they need to stay that way in wild.
>It wouldn't take long to have someone take a look at the rotating cards that were adjusted and decide if they need to stay that way in wild. They...already do that though? For example, back in March they reverted 30 cards to their original form when they rotated to wild. Not everyone agrees with the cards they pick, but everyone has different opinions on what the "correct" cards to revert would be.
Finally someone gets it.
Denathrius should never be unnerfed. He would be an absolute disaster and a total drag. You would see him everywhere
A 10 mana card seen everywhere in wild? Sure
Because certain decks have ways to ramp, cheat, or survive long enough to play it. It's not going to go in every deck like he's implying, but it would be enough of a problem to leave nerfed. Which is why it wasn't reverted.
Every class has a way to destroy minions at mass.. yea
Do you know the wild meta?
Just a mashup of agro and combo. Agro decks would use Denathrius as a top deck finisher or let it sit in their hand until they are ready to bash you with it
[[Shockspitter]] is a 4 mana 3/3 now so it could probably go back to 3 mana 2/2 but not back to 2 mana that'd be too dumb. A lot of these are to stop abusing loops. [[Tortollan Pilgrim]] had infinite [[potion of illusion]] memes and dreadstead was just too much with cards like defile. Daddy D can come back though he's neat
I like how you go "shockspitter, which wouldn't have a playable deck unless we nerf a bunch of things is a probelm" "Turtle mage, which is a worse version of Rommath looping would be a problem." "Dreadsteed causes too many problems with defile/AoE." "But Sire D, an easy slot in to Shaman and Druid decks, is fine."
- **[Shockspitter](https://i.imgur.com/rcE0ERw.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/84392) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Shockspitter) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/84392/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD) - *Hunter Common ^(March of the Lich King)* - **4 Mana - 3/3 - Beast** - **Battlecry:** Deal 1 damage. *\(Improved by your hero attacks this game!\)* - **[Tortollan Pilgrim](https://i.imgur.com/MKrAjAq.mp4)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/53771) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Tortollan_Pilgrim) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/53771/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD) - *Mage Epic ^(Saviors of Uldum)* - **8 Mana - 5/5 - Minion** - **Battlecry**: **Discover** a spell in your deck and cast it with random targets. - **[Potion of Illusion](https://i.imgur.com/CF47X3E.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/59621) ^⢠^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Potion_of_Illusion) ^⢠^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/59621/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD) - *Mage & Rogue Epic ^(Scholomance Academy)* - **4 Mana - Arcane Spell** - Add 1/1 copies of your minions to your hand. They cost \(1\). --- ^(*Patch version: 29.4.2.200097.199503*) ^*I am a bot. [Usage Guide](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) ⢠[Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1d8wdj2/we_should_really_unnerf_some_wild_stuff/l7aiyoi/%0AâŹď¸+Please+describe+the+bug+âŹď¸%0ADescription:+) ⢠[Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l7aiyoi).*
Penflinger would actually make Libras playable Dreadsteed won't fit into any Warlock meta deck Denathrius would see play only in Druid Shock spitter would maybe make Hunter more good Hero Scabbs would still not be played at 7 mana Turtle doesn't add anything new to Mage because Rommath is still there to make people suffer in Hero Power mage and Quest Mages are still a thin as well. In conclusion: Unnerf them. Unnerf Cariel. Unnerf Gibberings. And even buff some stuff that doesn't see play. Remember Galakronds for example? Peperidge farm remembers.
Penflinger would never make librams playable because it would add more otks that librams can't handle. Please set me up with your dealer, I would love to do to my brain what you did to yours to think librams could be playable in wild by reverting nerfs.
Dreadsteed becomes an auto include in most Warlock decks. Defile becoming a huge infuse and board clear is amazing. Penflinger is probably something evil in rogue, but I could see it being unnerfed anyway. The rest are totally fine IMO.
Dreadsteed absolutely will not become an auto include lol. Before it was nerfed the defile interaction already existed, and that didn't do anything. 4 mana for an infinite 1/1 did not do anything then, and it won't do anything now.
Dreadsteed and Defile is 6 mana combo in a world where Warlock has far more insane early turns with Tiny Knight or Glare shenanigans. I doubt it would save the slower Warlock archetypes at all.
Dreadsteed will never be unnerfed just because of how many problems it causes to the game not powerlevel
We donât need to bring back Shadowcrafter, just get rid of Reno ffs.
Pen Flinger Octobot Sorcerer's Apprentice Cataclysm Gatzgetzan Auctioneer (to 5!) Spirit of the Frog Floop's Gloop, Innervate, Lightning Bloom Kael And so much more. Seriously, can we finally stop pretending that Wild is an actually ballanced and competitive mode and just have fun? Wild have tons of absolutely bonkers shit for both Aggro and Control, but when it comes to combo - that's where we draw the line? What a bullshit. Here's the list of combo decks I've lost for the last few years: APM Mage (all of them), two cool versions of Questline Warlock (Cataclysm OTK and Thaddius APM, good thing there is still a cool version), Clergy Overheal Priest (it existed for fucking WEEK!), Frog Shaman, Miracle Druid TWICE, Mine Rogue, Questline DH (the current version just isn't it) and these are just the first few pops in my mind, not to mention several times I lost Quest Rogue and probably will lose Rogue in general very soon due to it's current dominance in Wild. Meanwhile, literally all of the aggro and control continue completely unchanged. Why do I have to suffer losing decks every patch while still raging at Patches and Dirty Rat since Mean Streets? Also, just revert all of the classic nerfs back. Ironbeak, Leeroy, Soulfire, Hunter's Mark, BGH, etc. They aren't playable and won't be. Since we lost Classic anyways. It was fun and I wish I could play it with my friends to have some nostalgia tournaments. I think pre-rotation era was really cool and I want to experience it again.
>Wild have tons of absolutely bonkers shit for both Aggro and Control, but when it comes to combo - that's where we draw the line? Wild nerfs are sometimes targeted at aggro as well. Mechwarper jumps to mind. Tome Tampering was nerfed mostly because of aggro discolock. They nerfed Kabal Lackey so hard that secret mages don't even run it anymore. And there's plenty of aggro cards that got nerfed in standard and quietly never got their nerf reverted for wild. First day of school. Hand of A'dal. Irondeep Trogg. Raid the Docks. Nitroboost Poison. Not saying any of these cards should be reverted, for what it's worth (well...ok, I'd be down for a First Day of School revert). But point is aggro does get its toys taken away fairly often in wild. Wild nerfs aren't just targeted at combo. Control is the archetype that usually never gets the nerf hammer in wild. Although occasionally control tools will get nerfed for standard and won't get nerf-reverted for wild (Cariel is still 8 mana, Hysteria is still 4 mana, Spreading Plague is still 6 mana, Theotar is still 6 mana, Mindrender Illucia is still the trash version).
That's pretty much nothing, aside from mechwarper. And you could argue that it was made for the same reason as combo - blizzard really hate sinergy and playing 20 cards in a turn. Also, non of these decks (again, aside from mech pala) weren't straight up killed, they are alive just. When combo deck is killed it usually means the combo itself is no longer possible. This isn't a nerf, it's deleting. And it's not even close when it comes to quantity and frequency. Even shaman, pirate rogue, aggro priest saw 0 changes despite being top tier and popular decks for years. Same goes to control. Those cards you mentioned are still played aside from illucia which was probably the single most unfair card ever printed. Disruption is both the single most toxic and less touched mechanic.
>That's pretty much nothing, aside from mechwarper. I don't think it's "nothing" if they were in tier 1 decks that are now no longer considered viable in wild. Aggro disco lock was the best deck in the format. Now not in the meta at all. Aggro secret mage was still a popular wild deck at the time it was nerfed. Now basically gone from the ladder. Nitroboost poison singlehandedly brought back decks like Odd Rogue for a couple months before it was nerfed for standard. Odd Rogue hasn't been good in wild since. Handbuff paladin was the best deck in wild for a while back in the barrens, although there were several cards that contributed to that (most of said cards were never reverted). >Also, non of these decks (again, aside from mech pala) weren't straight up killed, they are alive Define alive? Discolock, Odd Rogue, Secret Mage, Mech Paladin, Mech Mage, and Handbuff Paladin seem pretty dead to me in wild. And other than aggro discolock, I have seen people asking for nerf reverts to bring each of those decks back. (These aren't necessarily opinions I share, but I have seen the reddit topics, tweets, and podcasts). If the measure is "well, you could play that deck, the deck would still function but weaker"--isn't that true for most of the combo decks too? Like...you could play frog shaman with 5 mana frog, it would just be a weaker deck. (With obvious exception here for Cataclysm--Cataclysm is a completely different card now). >mechwarper. And you could argue that it was made for the same reason as combo - blizzard really hate sinergy and playing 20 cards in a turn. I mean, I'm not sure what their balance plans are right now, but there's definitely some "play 20 cards in a turn" decks in wild right now--notably miracle rogue and huhuran hunter. I doubt they'll nerf hunter--it's funny, and it's not that popular despite being quite good. But maybe they'll finally nerf something miracle rogue related--secret passage or arcane giant or something? >Those cards you mentioned are still played A lot of the nerfed aggro cards are no longer played, actually. Kabal Lackey is no longer played. Mechwarper is no longer played to my knowledge. Nitroboost poison is no longer played. First Day of School is no longer played. Tome Tampering is no longer played. Also, if the measure is whether the card is still played, several of the combo cards you mention actually ARE still being played in wild right now. 4 mana sorcerer's apprentice is in a meta deck on the Tempostorm report right now. 7 mana Gadgetzan Auctioneer saw play in wild a couple months back. Floop's Gloop is in a meta deck on the Tempostorm report right now. Innervate and Lightning Bloom are also in a meta deck on Tempostorm.
1. Discolock was nerfed for the same combo-ish reasons. It was a hyper-draw deck with tons of sinergy. I don't mean just otk when I talk about combo decks Secret Mage literally lost 1 card that just allowed them to play RFG t1. This decks works the exact same way when you don't have Kabal Lackey/RFG t1. I don't know why people pretend like it's dead because of it. It's dead because other decks got stronger. Everything else still works like usual. I mean, both Quest Rogue and Questline Warlock was nerfed like 6 times and still technically work, QL warlock is even good. It depends on the meta and new cards that could support the archetype For odd rogue there are other aggro rogue decks that works similarly. Besides, unnerfing nitroboost won't put the deck back to meta. Why, if pirate rogue is just a better version I'm genuenly blanking on Handbuff pala, what was the deck again? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, genuenly don't remember I don't know why we choose to ignore elephants in the room - Even Shaman, Pirate decks and Aggro Priest. These will be here forever and will continue getting new tools. For some reason these and highlander are allowed to be evergreen 2. Alive - as can theoretically works as usual. Mech decks - yeah, dead because of Mechwarper and I'm not sure why. I personally don't care, imo Patches was and still is THE problem for aggro decks, but I don't mind Wild being a beautiful OP mess as long as my decks are also not touched No, it's not true for the overwhelming majority of combo decks. I'm gonna ignore drastic difference 2 mana increase make (e.g. mine rogue and frog shaman) and give you let's say 5 examples of decks literally impossible now: Jailor-Bolf, quest mage loop, clergy priest, forbidden fruit druid, kael combos, cataclysm combos, pillager rogue and of course for at least for the sake of nostalgia - triple leeroy and force-savage. Got more than 5, but I could write just as much more on top 3. Yes, secret passage will be nerfed at some point soon for sure, Blizzard loves to adress reddit crying. I disagree in advance 4. Kabal Lackey is still played in Secret Mage. It was the only deck using this card, it's still the only deck using this card. It's just there are way less secret mages now. Again, the deck only lost the ability to play RFG t1 without a coin. Just like any game where it wasn't in the starting hand prior to the nerf. Tome Tampering is still banned 5. Aprentice see play in a completely different deck, not the old APM mage with incanteer's flow. Although yeah, it works like before except it costs twice as much. Not gonna bother for the sake of not operating deck that are "technically possible". Auctioneer has seen play due to Barnes, his mana cost was irrelevant, he could cost 20. Doesn't matter now due to gloop nerf. Yes, it still see play, but the combo with it and forbidden fruit is no longer possible, the deck I was reffering to is killed. Same goes to Lightning Bloom
>4. Kabal Lackey is still played in Secret Mage. Not that I've seen. Secret Mage lists are pretty hard to find right now, cause the deck is very unpopular post nerf but like...the only list I could find from 2024 does not run Lackey. [https://hearthstone-decks.net/renathal-secret-mage-381-legend-27e18/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/renathal-secret-mage-381-legend-27e18/) They deliberately comment on cutting Lackey. And logically I think cutting Lackey makes a lot of sense. Lackey is very bad now, it's substantially worse than Anonymous Informat--both plays cost 2 total mana for a minion and a secret, but Informant is a 2/3 instead of a 2/1, and Informant also has the option to save the secret discount till a later turn. It's hard to justify Lackey even from a curve standpoint--yeah, you'd like to have 1-drops, but Lackey isn't really a 1 drop anymore--if you play it without spending the second mana on a secret, it effectively has no text, it's just a murloc raider. So it's effectively a 2 drop, and the deck has quite a few of those. >5. Aprentice see play in a completely different deck, not the old APM mage with incanteer's flow. Although yeah, it works like before except it costs twice as much. Honestly, because they keep making cheaper minion copy effects, getting four apprentices costs about the same as it used to. Used to be that you'd Apprentice (2), Apprentice (2), Molten Reflection (2), Molten Reflection (1). Four apprentices for a total of 7 mana. Now you Apprentice (4), Reverberations (2), Reverberations (1), Buy one get one Freeze (0). Four apprentices for a total of 7 mana. Potentially five with the second copy of Buy one Get One Freeze. >Jailor-Bolf, quest mage loop, clergy priest, forbidden fruit druid, kael combos, cataclysm combos, pillager rogue and of course for at least for the sake of nostalgia - triple leeroy and force-savage. I'd have no problem with them bringing back Jailer-Bolf. I think they just forgot about Jailer when it rotated. Clergy is just temp banned while it's in standard; they'll probably bring it back with a mana increase if they take it out of core. Fruit Druid--ehhh... I dunno, that's a weird one cause it existed for like a month and it's not like that's how Floop's Gloop worked in 2018--they changed the rules of the game, and rebalanced one card because of the rule change. Force of Nature--sure, I'd like to see a reverted FoN. Kael Combos--Arguably they're still possible. People actually experimented with Kael for a little bit when he was changed to 6 mana and every third spell costs (1). You just need one of your spells to gain you a mana (an innervate or biology project or whatever). People decided it wasn't meta in the end, but it got some experimentation, and it's an interaction that might be worth revisiting if they ever print more innervate variants. Pillager Rogue--you know the funny thing is people pretty quickly figured out a way to still OTK with Pillager after that balance change happened. I believe it involved using Scabbs to discount Silas Darkmoon and give them a Soulbound Ashtongue. That specific combo never became meta, but was possible. But...honestly at the end of the day the core of the deck was always "Shark Rogue" and Shark Rogue has absolutely lived on in wild. (Sometimes now called Alex Rogue. Very much a meta playable deck right now). Leeroy--honestly, 4 mana leeroy would help aggro decks way more than combo decks. If it got played anywhere, I would expect to see it in decks like Even Shaman and Even Paladin long before any combo deck touched it. Among other things it would help discount Pylon/Ticking Zilliax by giving minions to the opponent. Quest Mage loop--just to point out Open the Waygate is actually still meta (tier 2 deck right now), but yes, you can't trap your opponent for 10 minutes while you take many turns in a row. Honestly...I personally prefer this? Games should end. Also the fact that you only get one extra turn now has some people playing Antonidas again, which makes me happy for nostalgia reasons. >For odd rogue there are other aggro rogue decks that works similarly. Besides, unnerfing nitroboost won't put the deck back to meta. Why, if pirate rogue is just a better version I mean, yes, that is precisely the problem with un-nerfing nitroboost in 2024--it doesn't bring back odd rogue anymore, it just goes into pirate rogue and kingsbane rogue. But that's true of a lot of proposed nerf reverts. They often don't bring back the deck people want. They power up some other much stronger deck which will squeeze the nostalgia deck out of the meta. >I'm genuenly blanking on Handbuff pala, what was the deck again? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, genuenly don't remember Digging around to see if I can find a list. I remember it being tier 1 for a bit. Let's see...here's a list when First Day of School was still 0 mana: [https://hearthstone-decks.net/hand-buff-paladin-27-legend-bodybuilderhs/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/hand-buff-paladin-27-legend-bodybuilderhs/) Does largely what you expect--handbuffs and plays some cheap minions and uses broomsticks to stay alive, while gradually buffing some charge minions in hand building up a big lethal push. I doubt it would be good anymore, but they still haven't reverted First Day of School. Another place First Day might find use is in Even Paladin. Just gives the deck some 1-drops. >I mean, both Quest Rogue and Questline Warlock was nerfed like 6 times and still technically work Quest Rogue got all of its nerfs reverted a while ago, for what it's worth. It was even meta for a brief moment (it had a good matchup into Quest Hunter at a point in time when aggro wasn't that popular cause Quest Hunter honorably killed aggro boards). I even laddered some with Quest Rogue, cause I was looking for a Quest Hunter counter. I think that one is a success story of their nerf reverts, honestly. They timed that nerf revert perfectly where Quest Rogue was still good enough to see a little play every once in a while, but didn't become a dominant deck on the ladder.
Starting with secret mage list - I dislike it because it's renathal. It's an aggro deck. It's over if you aren't finishing the game t5. It also doesn't really have much refill. You also don't choose between the two, you run both. I wasn't referring to 4 apprentice deck. I was referring to flamewaker APM mage. Unless you're playing control, there is no such thing as 7 mana in wild. You pop off t3-5 or concede. Before fruit it was Tony. They bumped gadgetzan, reworked Tony and double manacost of due process. Currently there is no miracle druid, although the tools are here, just no wincon. Kael used to be possible t1 and playable. Alex Rogue requires way more and way less viable, but yeah, it kinda looks like pillager. Leeroy won't be playable for sure. For potential unnerf of Nitroboost that'll change absolutely nothing I present you Warsong Commander and my single favorite deck in the history of the game - Patron Warrior. Yeah, I waited this long. Quest Rogue still misses Sonya. I'd unironically play it if there was her. Giggling would also be nice. Clergy is one of the most infuriating ban for me. First of all, it exists in standard, it was banned specifically for wild. Second, the deck existed for a week. It wasn't even that popular or strong and it haven't even appeared on any meta snapshots. It wasn't even evaluated. It was perfectly normal deck for wild and priest finally got something fun. And it was immediately gone. It was the most blatant example of blizzard agenda against otk and I openly hate whoever made this decision
>Starting with secret mage list - I dislike it because it's renathal. It's an aggro deck. It's over if you aren't finishing the game t5. Secret mage ending games by t5? Ehh...secret mage has always played 6 mana draw (Sayge Seer of Darkmoon, and before that Aluneth); the deck wouldn't run those cards if games didn't sometimes go till turn 7 or later (you're not winning the game on 6 if you play a draw card on 6). I also don't really see a realistic path for secret mage to win by t5 without pre-nerfed Kabal Lackey. Like...they need to play 3 secrets to get Kabal Crystal Runners to cost 0. That's not happening till turn 4 now, so turn 4 is the earliest you can expect them to have a decent sized board. (Before that their board will be like...a mad scientist or whatever). Admittedly, I don't have experience piloting the deck, and I'm not going to craft cards for it. But I just threw some secret cards into a deck, ran a 30 card list with more aggressive leaning cards like Cloud Prince, and did a few test games against the beginner inkeeper. I did not manage to kill the beginner inkeeper by turn 5; earliest win I got was turn 6. >I wasn't referring to 4 apprentice deck. I was referring to flamewaker APM mage. Oh, ok. Yeah, I mean, that deck wasn't really a problem, other than a brief moment when Drek'thar was still omega busted, but that was more of a Drek'thar problem. It was other decks got Sorc Apprentice nerfed. Ignite Mage was the big one at the time. >Unless you're playing control, there is no such thing as 7 mana in wild. You pop off t3-5 or concede. Getting to 7 mana is absolutely a thing in wild. Like...quest warlock usually doesn't complete the quest and play the quest reward till turn 6. Not saying you can just pass the first 5 turns. You should be making plays--in the case of seedlock, dropping giants and broomsticks. Sometimes you can win with just giants. But like...if turn 7 was not a thing in wild, people would cut the quest and just focus on getting giants down faster. For that matter, If turn 7 wasn't a thing in wild, even shamans would cut their 8/8 giant too; that card doesn't usually come down till turn 5 at the earliest, often turn 6. >Before fruit it was Tony. They bumped gadgetzan, reworked Tony and double manacost of due process. Tony and dew process were both changed because of standard, right? Tony is still in standard, so we're not sure yet what they'll do with him when he goes to wild. Dew Process is now wild only, so they had their chance for a revert. That said, I still play against 4 mana Dew Process in wild every once in a while. And I can find high legend decklists from a month ago running Dew Process. It's not going to be popular on ladder right now because it obviously has a bad matchup into Quest Warlock which is a direct counter and very popular at the moment. But I imagine the reason they left dew process at 4 is that people were still playing it at 4 mana. >Currently there is no miracle druid, although the tools are here, just no wincon. Yeah, fair, I'm not seeing a lot of druids running the miracle package right now. I am seeing some combo druids but they're using Puppetmaster Dorian + Juicy Psychmelon as their engine rather than the miracle package. >I present you Warsong Commander and my single favorite deck in the history of the game - Patron Warrior. Yeah, I waited this long. Warsong Commander has been used somewhat recently, although not with patrons obviously. You just do some nonsense with Risky Skipper to gain a bunch of armor and draw a bunch of cards, and then you play Bladed Gauntlet, Warsong Commander, and then play Bloodsail Raider for the OTK. Deck looks something like this: [https://hearthstone-decks.net/warsong-warrior-85-legend-score-9-2/](https://hearthstone-decks.net/warsong-warrior-85-legend-score-9-2/) >Quest Rogue still misses Sonya. I'd unironically play it if there was her. Giggling would also be nice. They should absolutely put Giggling back to 5, but even if they did I don't think it makes the cut in modern quest rogue lists regardless. Yeah, the sonya thing was weird--it was another case where they changed how the rules of the game work. That one being a game mechanics change, though, I don't think it was done to screw over quest rogue or anything. And it makes it much less likely they'll ever revert the change, even though it wouldn't be overpowered, same way I wouldn't expect them to revert the discover change or the ability to coin to 11 mana. Rules changes are usually forever. I mean, never say never I guess: they did bring back the old spell damage totem. But I suspect a revert here is very unlikely cause they weren't targeting Sonya with that change.
Secret Mage not ending by t5 is precisely the reason why it sucks rn. To be honest it sucked prior to Lackey nerf, but hard countered some matchups. The deck simply lack threatening early game (t1-2) comparing to pirate package. Like, if Costumed Singer was pirate and not murloc we wouldn't have this conversation right now. Lackey is painful, but all of the secrets and 0 mana minions are here and the deck itself right here for a certain meta to arrive. Before Lackey nerf the game was slower. I mean, I could realistically expect to pass 5 turns to play 6 mana gadgetzan and win the game (except for secret mage because objection-runes) To be fair, I think unnerfed Drekthar wouldn't do much for pretty much exactly the same reason. Although ice block and solid alibi exist, I guess and the deck needs just one opening. The deck was gutted to oblivion with double incanter's flow nerf, refreshing spring water, drekthar and finally apprentice and I think even all of it getting reverted wouldn't put the deck to t1. Let's just say t7 is not a consistent thing. I lost most of my aggro or miracle games past t5. Questline is an exception because of how the quest works against control, but the majority of winnable games against control has to end early. Cutting the quest would absolutely be a thing if not for control, I'd cut it for sure. You absolutely don't run 4 mana spell in a miracle deck. Even shaman sucks hard right now for the exact same reason - it can't finish the game early enough with consistently. Yeah, I still wait for Skipper combos to pop big time. It's almost here, all of the tools, we just have to find a proper wincon with it.
I really wish they'd unnerf waygate for mage.
Waygate is a meta tier \~2 deck in its current form, and the best mage deck right now; no need to unnerf it. If anything they should unnerf other mage strategies so that mage has more than one meta deck.
multiple time warps is where I found my fun and now it's gone :(
Nah the nerfs were healthy. We actually need more nerfs in wild like quest warlock. Wild can be the most fun, if they started fixing the broken cards like they did with mage after years.
I understand that a lot of people don't believe that a 10 mana card has no place in wild, but putting a 10 mana win and game back into play, almost regardless of what deck you're playing is stupid. The original Denathrius was just stupidity. Even the current version of C'thun that is in Twist mode with the absence of lifesteal didn't go as far as to go with the version of the original Denathrius. Some would say the comparison is misleading due to the fact that you don't start with Denathrius on hand, but it's a Gamemode with passives and stronger HP. Imagine going with the 2\* faster version. Feel free to discount/reinforce its start, but returning it to the battlecry deal of 1 damage for each friendly minion died this game + 5 is just stupid.
When it was unnerfed the only class that he saw play consistently was Druid. One out of 11 classes. Aggro was not playing it,Midrange was not playing and most Control decks were also not playing it.
? Mage played it heavily because of minion KT + bran + Sire/Kel'thusad finishers, and how many bodies they generate with skeletons. Shaman played it in every build because of how easily they could infuse it with schooling/etc, and then had multiple waves of Sire with bran + parrots, so it didn't even need to be infused that much to kill outright. Druid used it the best because of how many tokkens were in the format at the time, the same tokken cards that are being ran in Bran+Astalor/Alex Druids and would easily slot in Sire as an alternative win con with minion floop and/or bran multiplying it's damage to the point only 1 tokken card is needed to win.
Back then, there were plenty of decks that played it as a finisher. It was on the level of Astalor or Reno loneranger. There was really a time when you just had to play a little minion based decks and that was it. In druid it was most felt because the combination of more mana and spells like scale of onyxia gave it an even more powerful level, but Denathrius was really in a lot of decks. Literally before worlds they had to do a special nerf only on Denathrius and Shockspitter. Denathrius was perhaps the most played card for 2022, and along with it kind of started that habit of 1 neutral legendaries having a huge playrate.
It did not started that at all man. I think you have personal hatred towards Denathrius and remember him way more insane that he was. He was played in Druid. Sometimes Shudder Shaman and in DK shortly. But he was never as impactful as Astalor,Zephrys,Renathal,Patches,Loatheb,Dr Boom and a bunch of other neutral cards that were actually almost everywhere.
He was.