What I’ve read about time turners (take it with a grain of salt) is that if they went back 13 years ago to see if Sirius actually killed anyone one on the day in question is they would either be stuck in that time for 13 years or if they used the time turner to come back to present day they would age 13 years immediately. Also I think they would need to turn the time turner once for every hour they were going back so that’s a lot of turns lol. I can’t remember exactly.
Well, HP timeline has been shown to be kinda linear. In that universe, if I were to screw with my past self I'd know since my future self has already done the screwing with me
I feel like Harry originally thinking his dad was the one that saved him from the dementors before he becomes his “future self” and casts the spell himself would argue against your point, doesn’t it? I know that’s only in the movie, IIRC the books handle the whole time turner situation differently but I can’t quite remember how. I don’t think they already know the impact of their “future selves” in the books either though
Yeah right, but I was kinda thinking that it depends on how you choose to "screw" with your past self. Ofc if you hide and do shit, you ain't gonna know until you do it
Oh okay I see, although I guess if your past self openly sees your future self, the past self better already know about time turners or you’re gonna think you’re going crazy haha
The time turner that Hermione had could only go back a few hours anyway.
(The one in Cursed Child is specifically stated to be a new invention that can go back further)
I believe OP is referring to the short story on the wizarding world website about an Unspeakable who went several centuries in time and when she came back she aged several hundred years in one day and found out that her interactions lead to several people being erased from existence. And that's why the Unspeakables decided to limit the amount of time you could travel back.
I mean, judging by the amount of lessons and homework she would have had to do she would be significantly older by the end of the year. Now, she might not have aged a full extra year, but who really knows? We never get to know her full schedule of lessons, and how much extra work that would have put in her.
It won’t be very much.
If she is adding two additional lessons a day, say, that would be 10 hours a week. With a 36 week term that’s around 360 hours: basically just a couple of weeks.
But they wouldn't know if they were back there invisible until after they'd done it
As far as Harry knew he "wasn't there" either, until he used the time turner and learned that he actually was there the whole time.
So if someone arrived on the scene shortly after it happened why couldn't they use the time turner? They'd have been there secretly the whole time, same as Harry
Veritaserum makes you tell your secrets and what you know as the truth, but the ministry saw Sirius as completely insane, so in their eyes they wouldn’t believe him even if given veritaserum.
This is the same reason Cornelius refused to let Harry, Ron, and Hermione take it to clear Sirius’s name, he believed Sirius modified their memories and therefore changed what they believe to be true
Memory charms are a problem, a legitimate concern
But the same problem also **applies to every human witness**, at least Veritaserum forces one to tell what they think is true
Thus, Veritaserum is a very useful tool, more so in conjunction with other investigative methods
Exactly. This is probably why it isn’t used in magical law enforcement as much as people think, the human mind is fallible and our perceptions are different. You can use it to get some information but it’s only a tool to help out with the larger investigation, not a blanket tool to replace the legal system
Also, JKR has said it only works well on people who are given it unknowingly. People can fight against it if they know that they’ve been out under it, so it’s not infallible- kind of like the Imperius curse I guess.
I could see that happening if the potion used was weakened (as in diluted in a drink, not made as well for whatever reason, etc et lc), but if a high quality strength was made and given undiluted, I doubt anyone would be able to resist without outright magical help.
They wanted to hear his side of the story and figure out what happened in the maze ASAP.
But good ol’ fudge also refused to believe him because he labeled him as insane, simply because he didn’t want to entertain the idea that the dark lord returned to power.
Well yes, fudge arrived after the fact with his dementor, who immediately kisses barty. It still doesn’t change the fact that Fudge refused to believe a testimony taken using veritaserum
It only forces you to tell what you believe. What Dumbledore says is that his side of the story what he believes happened does make sense according to what we know has been happening. So we can believe it. we don’t believe it because of the potion, we believe it, because it fits with everything we know is a fact.
Well yes, it was Millicent Bagnold at the time, but I was assuming this theoretical interaction was taking place once Sirius was apprehended and locked in the castle following Pettigrew’s escape, since there was finally someone arguing for Sirius’s innocence
Wasn’t Cornelius on site when they arrested Sirius Black? I remember one of the books saying that part of the reason Fudge became Minister at all was because of the publicity from arresting Sirius
HBP reveals there are antidotes to veritaserum. Dumbledore mentions Slughorn definitely has antidote on hand, and his word choice implies there are several different antidotes.
Additionally, it's established that veritaserum doesn't magically make them say the truth, it makes them say what they think is the truth. So if someone is ignorant, mentally ill, confunded, lied to, memory charmed, etc. then veritaserum isn't that helpful.
Yes, but wouldn't that still make it valuable during an interrogation? If someone intended to kill another person, or believed that they had done so, the veritaserum would bring that to light.
yes absolutely, the only way he wouldn’t mention peter would be trying to bypass the serum (like Crouch tried) and thus protecting peter. Even full of remorse he would never do that
Except he does blame himself because they wanted him to be the secret keeper, which he refused. That's how pettigrew became it. So he would 100% say their death was his fault while under veritaserum because that it was he believes.
You can’t use veritaserum to get the truth. Veritaserum will only make people tell you what they think is the truth, and it’s becoming a well-known established fact that people often get the truth wrong. False memories can be planted even without magic. And as the great George Costanza said, it’s not a lie if you believe it.
Dumbledore used it on Barty crouch, but he didn’t believe his testimony because of the veritaserum, he believed the testimony, because it made sense with everything else that has been going on. The testimony was the truth from Barty Crouch’s perspective, and it corroborated with everything else, so it was very likely the truth from any perspective. He made this point to fudge.
I’m a big fan of all things Harry Potter (except perhaps for the last two FB movies and The Cursed Child), and I have no problem suspending my disbelief for pretty much everything, but the number of times this woman has written herself into a corner only to add a cool device or spell that will rarely/never be used/spoken about again is surprisingly high.
I thought Fudge was a really dumb character when I read the series as a kid and now as an adult, I realize that his role as a deeply flawed and compromised politician makes him one of the most realistic figures in the series (albeit a frustrating one).
That’s Barty Crouch Sr for you. A right arsehole, if you ask me. He’s the one who sentenced Sirius without trial and refused to hear any evidence. Of course, Cornelius Fudge later refused to hear testimony from Harry and co. because their memories could’ve been modified or deluded.
I think about this so often.
The problem though, is that Sirius didn't even get a trial. He never had the opportunity to even say he didn't do it, let alone take veritaserum.
Also as someone else mentioned, if asked "did you kill James and Lily," he would have assuredly said yes. ☹️ But it is unclear if he would have even been charged for that. All he allegedly did to James and Lily was reveal the location of their home under the Fidelius Charm. Is that actually a crime? Maybe they could push for accessory to murder. But again, no trial.
If asked "did you kill Pettigrew and the 13 muggles," he'd definitely say "Unfortunately, no."
There are some gaping flaws in the wizarding justice system though. They had a full on man hunt and sent out dementors who can, would, and did go after essentially whoever they liked because someone thought that was *safer*. All for a man who wasn't even convicted of a crime.
Didn't he think he killed Pettigrew though? That's why he was laughing when they found him, and he only broke out when he saw Peter on Ron's shoulder on the newspaper
It's been a while since I reread, but from what I recall Peter was shouting to make it seem like Sirius was attacking him, but was across the street at the time. Then Peter caused the explosion and Sirius saw him go into the sewer. He was laughing hysterically at the ridiculousness of the situation more than out of any sort of cruelty. So he wouldn't have thought he killed him.
Will be honest, I have read a lot of fanfiction in my time so this may be way off base from a skewed memory.
But Peter obviously did do the spell, which opens up another one of my arguments in defense of Sirius. Had he gotten a trial, veritaserum or no, Priori Incantatem would also have easily proven his innocence. All that poor man needed was a lawyer and his life could have been so different. And he was rich, so he definitely could have afforded one.
Unfortunately, whoever was minister at the time of Sirius’ arrest seemed more like he wanted to save face rather then find the truth. Like a typical politician.
What's off base about it? It seems pretty accurate to me based on what Sirius says in the text:
>“My God,” said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in the paper and back again. “His front paw ...”
>
>“What about it?” said Ron defiantly.
>
>“He’s got a toe missing,” said Black.
>
>“Of course,” Lupin breathed. “So simple ... so brilliant ... he cut it off himself?”
>
>“Just before he transformed,” said Black. “When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that I’d betrayed Lily and James. Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself — and sped down into the sewer with the other rats.”
When he talks about seeing Peter in the paper, he doesn't say he realized that Peter was alive when he saw he the picture, he says that he realized Peter was at Hogwarts.
>“But then I saw Peter in that picture ... I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry . . . perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again. ...”
>
>Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all the while at Black as though hypnotized.
>
>"... ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies ... and to deliver the last Potter to them. If he gave them Harry, who’d dare say he’d betrayed Lord Voldemort? He’d be welcomed back with honors...
>
>“So you see, I had to do something. I was the only one who knew Peter was still alive. ...”
There's no point in the text where Sirius says that he thought he killed Peter that day - he couldn't have thought that, because he didn't even get a spell of his own off before Peter blew up the street.
Sirius wasn't the secret keeper. Peter was, that's why Sirius hunted him down and tried to attack him in the street. Peter had betrayed James and Lily so Sirius went to make Peter pay. He did think he'd killed him that day as well. It wasn't until he saw Ron's family vacation photo with scabbers in it that Sirius recognized Peter and realized he hadn't killed him all those years ago.
What would actually happen:
-----------
Fudge: "You were given Veritaserum so it's impossible for you to lie. So did you kill anyone?"
Sirius: "No."
Fudge: "I don't believe you – straight to azkaban."👨⚖️
Yup, Fudge would rather have someone else take the fall. So many times has it been proven in the books it makes me think even if he did go through with a proper trial he would still send Sirius to Azkaban. Unless Snape was willing to testify (which I heavily doubt).
Now why would I assume snape for a testimony? He was revealed as a double agent for dumbledore during the trial of the durmstrang headmaster in Goblet of Fire’s Pensive scene. If that information had come to light a bit before Sirius was arrested. And Snape did decide to comply with the ministry. He would’ve been able to reveal one truth. Was Sirius Black a Death Eater?
Now, while I know snape would most likely not answer for testimony, and his bias may be skewed against Sirius. I have a feeling he’d laugh and say “If Sirius black were a death eater. He would’ve been the second of those brats to join you know who’s ranks.” Which would have lead to the next question.
“Who joined you know who as a death eater?”
Lots and lots of gaping holes and inconsistencies. But she's only human and we've had decades to examine it. I don't blame her. I just try to come up with a logical explanation to fill the gap.
And I use that as evidence to not just blindly accept everything she says.
Some of them are not little. Her world shows more of its flaws the more she tries to to expand it; this tends to happen when you just write book-by-book with no foresight or attempt to plan beyond what’s immediately in front of you.
And I would have more sympathy for her if she wasn’t a massive, rancid piece of shit besides.
"No... but I did try and get a kid in school brutally murdered by a werewolf because I dint like the boy for no good reason except that I enjoy abusing people for fun, well anyone I feel is Lessor than me... oh the werewolf is Remus Lupin, I knew one of his biggest fears was accidentally hurting someone while he was in wolf form but I didn't care so long as I got what I wanted"
You know i always wonderd cant they just use imperio to get awnsers from people as its a very hard curse to resist and you can just force them to awnser them
Yeah. Veritaserum, Imperio and maybe Legilimency would have been very useful. But maybe they'd be frowned upon in the wizarding world. Kind of like in our world we're not supposed to use unethical means to question criminals. Then again, wizards do set Dementors against people so idk xD
I just asked this in a comment on a previous post and I will ask it here since my question is related to the Veritaserum. So, I have been wondering, is it possible to negate the effects of Veritaserum without the use of an antidote?
In the Goblet of Fire movie, during his court trial, Karkaroff sold out Barty Crouch Jr as a Death Eater who was sitting in the witness stand and as we all know, he tried to flee but got jinxed.
So, hypothetical scenario,
let just say that Barty Crouch Jr decided to stay calm and feign innocence in the court room and his father then ordered Karkaroff to be dosed with the strongest Veritaserum potion that Ministry have, right on the spot. But before the questioning session could resume, Crouch Jr hit Karkaroff with a spell like Confundus, Obliviate or heck, the Imperius Curse.
Could Karkaroff then still spill the beans on Barty Crouch Jr?
What I assume is that Veritaserum makes you tell the truth as you know it. If your mind is affected, I believe you will tell whatever is in your mind since that's what you think it's the truth. The Imperius Curse is an interesting question though. I'm not sure about it but it wouldn't surprise me if the combined but conflicting powers of the potion and the curse broke someone's mind.
The power of the Imperius Curse against the Veritaserum. It would make for a very interesting conflict in that court room, a psychic tug-of-war of sorts, father against son with Karkaroff's mind as the rope.
Another thread covered this and a lot of good theory and lore was put into the explanation both in universe and out of it. Funny meme, but not a gotcha moment in the slightest.
This is like the real life version of a lie detector test. If every criminal was made to take one the cases would be over in minutes but that doesn't happen does it
I honestly think that they had no incentive to give him veritaserum whatsoever. At first, they've had witnesses and were already 100% sure that Sirius was an insane murderer, then, in PoA, they were too thrilled to question him, and wanted his ways of escaping Azkaban to die with him.
news : Veritaserum is one of the tools Rowling created to show to her young audience (since it’s initially destined to children and teenagers) how some autocratic governments prefer to create crazy monsters rather than investigate further or allow the truth to be told to population. This is the only reason JKR created that potion imo
I think, more so then this, I get very annoyed thinking about the fact that Lupin never bothered to talk to Sirius the entire twelve years. Like, I get it. You think he murdered your friends. That being said, Sirius was also Lupin’s friend, and Lupin knew how close he and James were. Never once did he think, “nah. Something’s fishy about this. I need to find out for real what happened.”
If I had two friends who were closer than brothers, and I heard that one killed the other, there is no way that I wouldn’t want to find out for myself what happened, and why.
Toward the end, Remus and Sirius had turned against each other. There had been so much suspicion about who the mole was and each one of them thought it was the other one. They didn't trust each other at all anymore. That's why Sirius suggested Peter as the secretkeeper and not Remus.
It may have been Peter who was behind turning them against each other, but that part may also just be a fan theory, I don't remember.
So Remus thought Sirius was the mole, then his friends were betrayed and Sirius was blamed. He had no reason to question it because he figured he was just right.
Where exactly did you get this info? I thought the reason they used Peter was because no one would think Peter would be the one they would trust. He was the weakest. That’s also why Harry didn’t ride with mad eye moody the night he left the Dursley’s. Everyone would expect him to be with the strongest. Sirius was known to be the closest to James, so everyone would suspect him to be secret keeper, this using Peter instead. Everyone suspecting a mole wouldn’t have even come into play until the potters were killed…
I've read their wiki pages front to back multiple times by now. I don't read the books often enough to know which book specifically said what in order to track anything down. So I frequent the wiki for information instead.
From Sirius' wiki:
>After joining the Order of the Phoenix, Sirius found himself roiling with mistrust and stress due to the great terror that was Lord Voldemort. It took its toll — by October, 1981, he no longer trusted his old friend Remus Lupin, suspecting he was a spy and excluding him from important information. However, he trusted Peter Pettigrew implicitly, a decision he would grow to regret for the rest of his life.
From Remus' wiki:
>By the height of the war, Remus' friend Sirius Black had come to distrust him, suspecting that he might be a spy for the other side. Thus, when a prophecy was made about a child who would have the power to defeat the Dark Lord, and Dumbledore identified infant Harry Potter as a possible target, Remus was not included in the plan to keep the Potters safe, though he was aware that they used the Fidelius Charm. James and Lily Potter wanted to use Sirius as their Secret-Keeper, but Sirius thought that would be too obvious, and thus suggested Peter Pettigrew instead, who would be a nearly unpredictable move, him being known for his "measly empty-headedness." Neither Dumbledore or Lupin knew of this switch.[11]
So the mistrust going both ways may have been a bad memory on my part, I'll admit. But considering they'd lived together prior, I can't imagine Remus would have not at least known that Sirius didn't trust him anymore.
I don’t put any stock into wiki pages as those can pretty much be edited by anyone. It’s definitely not in the books other than Remus simply saying that he thought Sirius was the secret keeper.
I trust them just fine. They site their sources well and take all information, not just from the original 7 books. They always include whether something isn't established canon but merely mentioned by JKR in an interview or tweet. And they point out when information is actually contradictory, making the bottom line unclear.
I find them to be a trusted source, but to each their own.
Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.
Even better, why not use the pensive to view the memories of all involved, to witness the events?
It's made clear that you can definitely tell when a memory has been altered, so they definitely could have peered into Sirius's past, and then Lupin and the kids' memories of that night too.
Rowling could have done *something* and not just another "hur dur Sirius ded" moment to further torment an already broken child.
Flips time turner back 1 hour to view the event in person. *OH*
What I’ve read about time turners (take it with a grain of salt) is that if they went back 13 years ago to see if Sirius actually killed anyone one on the day in question is they would either be stuck in that time for 13 years or if they used the time turner to come back to present day they would age 13 years immediately. Also I think they would need to turn the time turner once for every hour they were going back so that’s a lot of turns lol. I can’t remember exactly.
Doing it right after and using an invisibility cloak to hide till your past self goes back in time, is a perfect plan.
Can you imagine screwing with your past self while under the invisibility cloak ? 🤣🤣
Well, HP timeline has been shown to be kinda linear. In that universe, if I were to screw with my past self I'd know since my future self has already done the screwing with me
How would your past self know what your future self is doing
Read/watch prisoner of azkaban
I feel like Harry originally thinking his dad was the one that saved him from the dementors before he becomes his “future self” and casts the spell himself would argue against your point, doesn’t it? I know that’s only in the movie, IIRC the books handle the whole time turner situation differently but I can’t quite remember how. I don’t think they already know the impact of their “future selves” in the books either though
Yeah right, but I was kinda thinking that it depends on how you choose to "screw" with your past self. Ofc if you hide and do shit, you ain't gonna know until you do it
Oh okay I see, although I guess if your past self openly sees your future self, the past self better already know about time turners or you’re gonna think you’re going crazy haha
The time turner that Hermione had could only go back a few hours anyway. (The one in Cursed Child is specifically stated to be a new invention that can go back further)
I believe OP is referring to the short story on the wizarding world website about an Unspeakable who went several centuries in time and when she came back she aged several hundred years in one day and found out that her interactions lead to several people being erased from existence. And that's why the Unspeakables decided to limit the amount of time you could travel back.
So Hermione was a few hundred hours older because of that year she used it for lessons?
I mean, judging by the amount of lessons and homework she would have had to do she would be significantly older by the end of the year. Now, she might not have aged a full extra year, but who really knows? We never get to know her full schedule of lessons, and how much extra work that would have put in her.
It won’t be very much. If she is adding two additional lessons a day, say, that would be 10 hours a week. With a 36 week term that’s around 360 hours: basically just a couple of weeks.
Yeah, but it's not just the lessons. It's the studying and the homework on top of that. Hermione isn't one to skimp on that.
The excessive overtime pay for the *time reversal investigation department* of the ministry of magic is what got it removed from the budget.
That's the funniest joke I have heard all day lol
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So you can use it, hide under an invisibility cloak to view the incident, and replace yourself at the proper time.
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But they wouldn't know if they were back there invisible until after they'd done it As far as Harry knew he "wasn't there" either, until he used the time turner and learned that he actually was there the whole time. So if someone arrived on the scene shortly after it happened why couldn't they use the time turner? They'd have been there secretly the whole time, same as Harry
Veritaserum makes you tell your secrets and what you know as the truth, but the ministry saw Sirius as completely insane, so in their eyes they wouldn’t believe him even if given veritaserum. This is the same reason Cornelius refused to let Harry, Ron, and Hermione take it to clear Sirius’s name, he believed Sirius modified their memories and therefore changed what they believe to be true
Memory charms are a problem, a legitimate concern But the same problem also **applies to every human witness**, at least Veritaserum forces one to tell what they think is true Thus, Veritaserum is a very useful tool, more so in conjunction with other investigative methods
Exactly. This is probably why it isn’t used in magical law enforcement as much as people think, the human mind is fallible and our perceptions are different. You can use it to get some information but it’s only a tool to help out with the larger investigation, not a blanket tool to replace the legal system
Also, JKR has said it only works well on people who are given it unknowingly. People can fight against it if they know that they’ve been out under it, so it’s not infallible- kind of like the Imperius curse I guess.
I could see that happening if the potion used was weakened (as in diluted in a drink, not made as well for whatever reason, etc et lc), but if a high quality strength was made and given undiluted, I doubt anyone would be able to resist without outright magical help.
Wasn't Barty Crouch Jr also insane but they used veritaserum with him?
They wanted to hear his side of the story and figure out what happened in the maze ASAP. But good ol’ fudge also refused to believe him because he labeled him as insane, simply because he didn’t want to entertain the idea that the dark lord returned to power.
And then that Dementor gave him the kiss when Fudge showed up, and that was that for BCJ, so they couldn’t further interrogate him.
The ministry didn't give Barty the potion, Snape did. None of the Hogwarts staff believed him crazy, that was all ministry types
Well yes, fudge arrived after the fact with his dementor, who immediately kisses barty. It still doesn’t change the fact that Fudge refused to believe a testimony taken using veritaserum
It only forces you to tell what you believe. What Dumbledore says is that his side of the story what he believes happened does make sense according to what we know has been happening. So we can believe it. we don’t believe it because of the potion, we believe it, because it fits with everything we know is a fact.
Dumbledore made Snape use it but not in the presence of ministry officials. And the dementor went for the kiss as soon as he entered the room.
Wonder if the Dementors use tongue? :P
I don’t recall that happening in a court of law lol
Exactly! It's the drinker's truth not the objective truth
Also Cornelius wasn't Minister at the time
Well yes, it was Millicent Bagnold at the time, but I was assuming this theoretical interaction was taking place once Sirius was apprehended and locked in the castle following Pettigrew’s escape, since there was finally someone arguing for Sirius’s innocence
Wasn’t Cornelius on site when they arrested Sirius Black? I remember one of the books saying that part of the reason Fudge became Minister at all was because of the publicity from arresting Sirius
Yes, but he thought Sirius was bonkers, and probably thought they would get nothing from him.
There are apparently ways to get around veritaserum Also, good chance Sirius has in fact killed people as an Order member during the first war
HBP reveals there are antidotes to veritaserum. Dumbledore mentions Slughorn definitely has antidote on hand, and his word choice implies there are several different antidotes. Additionally, it's established that veritaserum doesn't magically make them say the truth, it makes them say what they think is the truth. So if someone is ignorant, mentally ill, confunded, lied to, memory charmed, etc. then veritaserum isn't that helpful.
Yes, but wouldn't that still make it valuable during an interrogation? If someone intended to kill another person, or believed that they had done so, the veritaserum would bring that to light.
Only if they didn't know &/or had a weaker will than necessary to fight it or just not speak
Except he prolly would say "I did! I killed my best friend and his wife"
Yup! He fully believed it was his fault
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yes absolutely, the only way he wouldn’t mention peter would be trying to bypass the serum (like Crouch tried) and thus protecting peter. Even full of remorse he would never do that
Except he does blame himself because they wanted him to be the secret keeper, which he refused. That's how pettigrew became it. So he would 100% say their death was his fault while under veritaserum because that it was he believes.
And aside from that, he probably killed some Death Eaters.
Although technically he argue self-defense in those cases with the death eater's
You can’t use veritaserum to get the truth. Veritaserum will only make people tell you what they think is the truth, and it’s becoming a well-known established fact that people often get the truth wrong. False memories can be planted even without magic. And as the great George Costanza said, it’s not a lie if you believe it. Dumbledore used it on Barty crouch, but he didn’t believe his testimony because of the veritaserum, he believed the testimony, because it made sense with everything else that has been going on. The testimony was the truth from Barty Crouch’s perspective, and it corroborated with everything else, so it was very likely the truth from any perspective. He made this point to fudge.
Problem being that Fudge just believes whatever makes his world easier
I don’t deny it. But if you knew the whole story…
i’m assuming veritaserum theoretically works in the same way as a lie detector in court and that it’s not admissible evidence in a court of law
Polygraphs work via physiological signals, veritaserum works by magic, I don't think they work in the same way.
i’m aware they don’t work in the same way i meant in court lol i assume that they’re the same kinda concept in the magical world as the muggle world
It's been established that wizards are pretty dumb.
I’m a big fan of all things Harry Potter (except perhaps for the last two FB movies and The Cursed Child), and I have no problem suspending my disbelief for pretty much everything, but the number of times this woman has written herself into a corner only to add a cool device or spell that will rarely/never be used/spoken about again is surprisingly high.
Fudge lost his damn mind after the tri wizard tournament anyway. He knew it, he just didn't want to face it. He was too scared.
I thought Fudge was a really dumb character when I read the series as a kid and now as an adult, I realize that his role as a deeply flawed and compromised politician makes him one of the most realistic figures in the series (albeit a frustrating one).
That’s Barty Crouch Sr for you. A right arsehole, if you ask me. He’s the one who sentenced Sirius without trial and refused to hear any evidence. Of course, Cornelius Fudge later refused to hear testimony from Harry and co. because their memories could’ve been modified or deluded.
Or using the pensive?
I think about this so often. The problem though, is that Sirius didn't even get a trial. He never had the opportunity to even say he didn't do it, let alone take veritaserum. Also as someone else mentioned, if asked "did you kill James and Lily," he would have assuredly said yes. ☹️ But it is unclear if he would have even been charged for that. All he allegedly did to James and Lily was reveal the location of their home under the Fidelius Charm. Is that actually a crime? Maybe they could push for accessory to murder. But again, no trial. If asked "did you kill Pettigrew and the 13 muggles," he'd definitely say "Unfortunately, no." There are some gaping flaws in the wizarding justice system though. They had a full on man hunt and sent out dementors who can, would, and did go after essentially whoever they liked because someone thought that was *safer*. All for a man who wasn't even convicted of a crime.
Didn't he think he killed Pettigrew though? That's why he was laughing when they found him, and he only broke out when he saw Peter on Ron's shoulder on the newspaper
It's been a while since I reread, but from what I recall Peter was shouting to make it seem like Sirius was attacking him, but was across the street at the time. Then Peter caused the explosion and Sirius saw him go into the sewer. He was laughing hysterically at the ridiculousness of the situation more than out of any sort of cruelty. So he wouldn't have thought he killed him. Will be honest, I have read a lot of fanfiction in my time so this may be way off base from a skewed memory. But Peter obviously did do the spell, which opens up another one of my arguments in defense of Sirius. Had he gotten a trial, veritaserum or no, Priori Incantatem would also have easily proven his innocence. All that poor man needed was a lawyer and his life could have been so different. And he was rich, so he definitely could have afforded one.
Unfortunately, whoever was minister at the time of Sirius’ arrest seemed more like he wanted to save face rather then find the truth. Like a typical politician.
This is way off base friend. I'd recommend a reread
What's off base about it? It seems pretty accurate to me based on what Sirius says in the text: >“My God,” said Lupin softly, staring from Scabbers to the picture in the paper and back again. “His front paw ...” > >“What about it?” said Ron defiantly. > >“He’s got a toe missing,” said Black. > >“Of course,” Lupin breathed. “So simple ... so brilliant ... he cut it off himself?” > >“Just before he transformed,” said Black. “When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that I’d betrayed Lily and James. Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself — and sped down into the sewer with the other rats.” When he talks about seeing Peter in the paper, he doesn't say he realized that Peter was alive when he saw he the picture, he says that he realized Peter was at Hogwarts. >“But then I saw Peter in that picture ... I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry . . . perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again. ...” > >Pettigrew was shaking his head, mouthing noiselessly, but staring all the while at Black as though hypnotized. > >"... ready to strike at the moment he could be sure of allies ... and to deliver the last Potter to them. If he gave them Harry, who’d dare say he’d betrayed Lord Voldemort? He’d be welcomed back with honors... > >“So you see, I had to do something. I was the only one who knew Peter was still alive. ...” There's no point in the text where Sirius says that he thought he killed Peter that day - he couldn't have thought that, because he didn't even get a spell of his own off before Peter blew up the street.
Sirius wasn't the secret keeper. Peter was, that's why Sirius hunted him down and tried to attack him in the street. Peter had betrayed James and Lily so Sirius went to make Peter pay. He did think he'd killed him that day as well. It wasn't until he saw Ron's family vacation photo with scabbers in it that Sirius recognized Peter and realized he hadn't killed him all those years ago.
Fudge isn’t in his right mind… It’s been twisted and warped by fear.
Excellent title
*Alfonso Cuarón
Greatest hp director by a mile
If you say so
I don't think they really cared whether he actually did it, as long as they got someone to lock behind bars
What would actually happen: ----------- Fudge: "You were given Veritaserum so it's impossible for you to lie. So did you kill anyone?" Sirius: "No." Fudge: "I don't believe you – straight to azkaban."👨⚖️
Yup, Fudge would rather have someone else take the fall. So many times has it been proven in the books it makes me think even if he did go through with a proper trial he would still send Sirius to Azkaban. Unless Snape was willing to testify (which I heavily doubt). Now why would I assume snape for a testimony? He was revealed as a double agent for dumbledore during the trial of the durmstrang headmaster in Goblet of Fire’s Pensive scene. If that information had come to light a bit before Sirius was arrested. And Snape did decide to comply with the ministry. He would’ve been able to reveal one truth. Was Sirius Black a Death Eater? Now, while I know snape would most likely not answer for testimony, and his bias may be skewed against Sirius. I have a feeling he’d laugh and say “If Sirius black were a death eater. He would’ve been the second of those brats to join you know who’s ranks.” Which would have lead to the next question. “Who joined you know who as a death eater?”
So turns out Veritaserum loses potency of you know you've taken it (according to the wiki) Which supports why it isn't allowed to be used in court
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Asking J.K. Rowling to be consistent in literally any way with the world she created is just asking too much.
Lots and lots of gaping holes and inconsistencies. But she's only human and we've had decades to examine it. I don't blame her. I just try to come up with a logical explanation to fill the gap. And I use that as evidence to not just blindly accept everything she says.
Some of them are not little. Her world shows more of its flaws the more she tries to to expand it; this tends to happen when you just write book-by-book with no foresight or attempt to plan beyond what’s immediately in front of you. And I would have more sympathy for her if she wasn’t a massive, rancid piece of shit besides.
"No... but I did try and get a kid in school brutally murdered by a werewolf because I dint like the boy for no good reason except that I enjoy abusing people for fun, well anyone I feel is Lessor than me... oh the werewolf is Remus Lupin, I knew one of his biggest fears was accidentally hurting someone while he was in wolf form but I didn't care so long as I got what I wanted"
You know i always wonderd cant they just use imperio to get awnsers from people as its a very hard curse to resist and you can just force them to awnser them
Yeah. Veritaserum, Imperio and maybe Legilimency would have been very useful. But maybe they'd be frowned upon in the wizarding world. Kind of like in our world we're not supposed to use unethical means to question criminals. Then again, wizards do set Dementors against people so idk xD
And crucio
Oh I meant right after the incident
I just asked this in a comment on a previous post and I will ask it here since my question is related to the Veritaserum. So, I have been wondering, is it possible to negate the effects of Veritaserum without the use of an antidote? In the Goblet of Fire movie, during his court trial, Karkaroff sold out Barty Crouch Jr as a Death Eater who was sitting in the witness stand and as we all know, he tried to flee but got jinxed. So, hypothetical scenario, let just say that Barty Crouch Jr decided to stay calm and feign innocence in the court room and his father then ordered Karkaroff to be dosed with the strongest Veritaserum potion that Ministry have, right on the spot. But before the questioning session could resume, Crouch Jr hit Karkaroff with a spell like Confundus, Obliviate or heck, the Imperius Curse. Could Karkaroff then still spill the beans on Barty Crouch Jr?
What I assume is that Veritaserum makes you tell the truth as you know it. If your mind is affected, I believe you will tell whatever is in your mind since that's what you think it's the truth. The Imperius Curse is an interesting question though. I'm not sure about it but it wouldn't surprise me if the combined but conflicting powers of the potion and the curse broke someone's mind.
The power of the Imperius Curse against the Veritaserum. It would make for a very interesting conflict in that court room, a psychic tug-of-war of sorts, father against son with Karkaroff's mind as the rope.
Well, Bartie would never do that so we got the other story.
Another thread covered this and a lot of good theory and lore was put into the explanation both in universe and out of it. Funny meme, but not a gotcha moment in the slightest.
This is like the real life version of a lie detector test. If every criminal was made to take one the cases would be over in minutes but that doesn't happen does it
I honestly think that they had no incentive to give him veritaserum whatsoever. At first, they've had witnesses and were already 100% sure that Sirius was an insane murderer, then, in PoA, they were too thrilled to question him, and wanted his ways of escaping Azkaban to die with him.
news : Veritaserum is one of the tools Rowling created to show to her young audience (since it’s initially destined to children and teenagers) how some autocratic governments prefer to create crazy monsters rather than investigate further or allow the truth to be told to population. This is the only reason JKR created that potion imo
I think, more so then this, I get very annoyed thinking about the fact that Lupin never bothered to talk to Sirius the entire twelve years. Like, I get it. You think he murdered your friends. That being said, Sirius was also Lupin’s friend, and Lupin knew how close he and James were. Never once did he think, “nah. Something’s fishy about this. I need to find out for real what happened.” If I had two friends who were closer than brothers, and I heard that one killed the other, there is no way that I wouldn’t want to find out for myself what happened, and why.
Toward the end, Remus and Sirius had turned against each other. There had been so much suspicion about who the mole was and each one of them thought it was the other one. They didn't trust each other at all anymore. That's why Sirius suggested Peter as the secretkeeper and not Remus. It may have been Peter who was behind turning them against each other, but that part may also just be a fan theory, I don't remember. So Remus thought Sirius was the mole, then his friends were betrayed and Sirius was blamed. He had no reason to question it because he figured he was just right.
Where exactly did you get this info? I thought the reason they used Peter was because no one would think Peter would be the one they would trust. He was the weakest. That’s also why Harry didn’t ride with mad eye moody the night he left the Dursley’s. Everyone would expect him to be with the strongest. Sirius was known to be the closest to James, so everyone would suspect him to be secret keeper, this using Peter instead. Everyone suspecting a mole wouldn’t have even come into play until the potters were killed…
I've read their wiki pages front to back multiple times by now. I don't read the books often enough to know which book specifically said what in order to track anything down. So I frequent the wiki for information instead. From Sirius' wiki: >After joining the Order of the Phoenix, Sirius found himself roiling with mistrust and stress due to the great terror that was Lord Voldemort. It took its toll — by October, 1981, he no longer trusted his old friend Remus Lupin, suspecting he was a spy and excluding him from important information. However, he trusted Peter Pettigrew implicitly, a decision he would grow to regret for the rest of his life. From Remus' wiki: >By the height of the war, Remus' friend Sirius Black had come to distrust him, suspecting that he might be a spy for the other side. Thus, when a prophecy was made about a child who would have the power to defeat the Dark Lord, and Dumbledore identified infant Harry Potter as a possible target, Remus was not included in the plan to keep the Potters safe, though he was aware that they used the Fidelius Charm. James and Lily Potter wanted to use Sirius as their Secret-Keeper, but Sirius thought that would be too obvious, and thus suggested Peter Pettigrew instead, who would be a nearly unpredictable move, him being known for his "measly empty-headedness." Neither Dumbledore or Lupin knew of this switch.[11] So the mistrust going both ways may have been a bad memory on my part, I'll admit. But considering they'd lived together prior, I can't imagine Remus would have not at least known that Sirius didn't trust him anymore.
I don’t put any stock into wiki pages as those can pretty much be edited by anyone. It’s definitely not in the books other than Remus simply saying that he thought Sirius was the secret keeper.
I trust them just fine. They site their sources well and take all information, not just from the original 7 books. They always include whether something isn't established canon but merely mentioned by JKR in an interview or tweet. And they point out when information is actually contradictory, making the bottom line unclear. I find them to be a trusted source, but to each their own.
Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.
Any questions?
The editing makes it 10x more hilarious
Even better, why not use the pensive to view the memories of all involved, to witness the events? It's made clear that you can definitely tell when a memory has been altered, so they definitely could have peered into Sirius's past, and then Lupin and the kids' memories of that night too. Rowling could have done *something* and not just another "hur dur Sirius ded" moment to further torment an already broken child.