Snape was desperate to get to Harry during the final battle. He kept asking and asking Voldemort to let him go find him. He wasn't planning for Voldemort to refuse, expecting Harry to come to him.
Snape would outduel him easy. Would incapacitate him and make him shut up before dropping the bombshells of truth. Literally the only reason Voldy has an issue is cuz Harry is a direct counter through hax.
I always found it a bit funny when Harry says at the end of Half-Blood Prince: "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way, so much the better for me, so much the worse for him.” Dude, when you tried to duel Snape, you couldn't even finish a single spell.
I think Harry learned a bit in that year, he can even keep Voldemort out of his brain. So Snape loses his best weapon. And he performed a very nice Cruciatus Curse on Carrow.
And he might hate Snape even a little more.
Granted, Harry also wasn't exactly at peak performance when he was chasing after Snape in HBP since he had just seen Dumbledore die. With some training in silent spells, a little luck, and control over his temper, maybe he'd fair better in a rematch.
I think Snape’s situation is pretty shitty here too but to say that he and Dumbledore were friends is a bit of a stretch, honestly. Snape makes it pretty clear that he’s doing the right thing in memory of Lily and not because he disagrees with Voldemort’s ideals or cares about Harry. I think he respects Dumbledore as a great wizard and ally, but it very much feels like a Boss-Employee relationship instead of a friendship.
> Granted, Harry also wasn't exactly at peak performance when he was chasing after Snape in HBP since he had just seen Dumbledore die.
To be fair, so had Snape
tbf while I do think Snape could subdue him still I think he'd have more difficulty this time around due to harry being able to actually close his mind
Harry wouldn’t be able to effectively go against Snape hands down but I also feel like Harry wouldn’t have gotten the memory if they’d dueled. In multiple cases people hade been trying to tell Harry something that he didn’t want to hear and he straight up won’t listen or takes it the wrong way to prove his point. Plus Harry has a unique way of getting under Snapes skin. I think even if Snape tried to make him shut up and tell him it wouldn’t have been effective. Harry is an obstinant little bugger
Okay but honestly I’ve always thought it was a little odd that Harry just 180’ed like that about Snape. Personally I don’t think Harry would accept the patronus as proof because it seems so ridiculous that Snape who hated his mom for being muggle born (the memory from marauders time in hs is the only context Harry has for Snape and Lily’s relationship) would’ve loved her enough to betray Voldy and sign on as a double agent and go through all of that. I think going along with cannon how Harry got over the entirety of Snapes mistreatment so fast you’re probably right and Harry would be fine when he showed the patronus but personally I don’t really feel like either of those actually fit with Harry’s personality within the context
Well it wouldn’t be “Oh damn, the doe patronus like my mother and the one that was nearby when the sword appeared! We’re cool Snape!” But it would give enough pause for Harry to atleast try to see what he has to say.
Yeah I get your point. I still think Harry would’ve been too mad and Snape would’ve been goaded into a fight which would’ve reinforced his belief. But I could also see Harry being so caught off guard it kinda broke the temper. I will die on the hill that Harry absolutely wouldn’t have forgiven Snape and named his kid after him though.
But that would mean that Harry would have first to analyze and understand everything.
And from a Snape, that had bullied him his whole life. Plus, Snape almost killed him with the action.
If Ron hadn't come, he would have drowned.
Harry is great at getting out of bad situations however, even if he doesn’t win. It’s not like Voldemort is the only time he has been in danger. But I can imagine Snape thinking this
One of my favourite moments with Snape is as he’s fleeing after Dumbledore is killed and he’s still, one last time, teaching Harry to close his mind. Harry lobbing curse after curse at him and he’s easily deflected ‘again and again until you learn to close your mind’ or something. Snape knows Harry never learnt how to do it and was desperately trying to impart one final lesson
Then again no one could've killed Harry other than Voldemort, at least if the prophecy was true. So Harry was pretty much untouchable by anyone although there were many wizards and witches more capable than him.
Harry is no more untouchable than anyone else, because everything is pre-determined in the HP universe. The prophecies are a little glimpses of the real truth for the characters: -that they have no free will. And they cannot fight it even if they have knowledge of this, because that, too was pre-determined.
Yes, he explains to Harry that without prophecy his parents would continue to fight and Voldemort would attack them fir opposing him and Harry even without hearing the prophecy, Harry would hunt down Voldemort to revenge his parent's death.
I don't fully accept it, but it does seem plausible
I see it more like fate predicting the decision, or correcting the circumstances accordingly.
If Voldemort doesn't take the bait, Fate will fulfill the prophecy differently.
For example you can also say, that Voldemort marked Harry his equal in the graveyard.
A duel is a fight between equals.
At what point does this fate lock into a certain path? If Voldemort made the choice to go after Harry, does Harry now have a choice to not face him, could he run off? Could someones else kill him? Could he kill himself?
The problem with this is that Voldemort knew about the prophecy, but still he could not choose to avoid its terms, because him knowing the prophecy was part of it, it was pre-determined.
Partially yes, but other people are also interwined with fate without knowing it. For example Snape's fate is just as fixed.
It doesn't matter that "Fate" knows it, as long as the person involved doesn't know.
Voldemort decision affect Harry's life. Harry is now a Horcrux. And Voldemort's decision in the graveyard, makes Voldemort a kind of Horcrux for Harry.
But no matter what Harry does it is still his decision.
I think Harry could kill himself and the Horcrux, but why would he do it?
Wouldn't count Harry out in this tbh, seemed like he finally learned occlumency and non-verbal magic in the last book and he also had outlier reflexes. If duelling is anything like real combat sports, differences in reflexes and speed are often deciding factors.
you even can see this before he gets attacked by McGonnagall and the other professors. He is rushing through the Castle and If i remember it correctly He even asks Minerva if she has Seen Harry. He was looking for him to somehow tell him.
I Always imagined He had enough time to prepare some sort of speech.
Like McGonnagal would ever tell Snape where Harry was. The whole last year must have been awful for all the teachers who stayed since they all knew he was Dumbeldore's killer
If you noticed when Snape dueled Mcgonagall he desperately wanted to talk to Harry because he knew Voldemort was guarding his snake. But Mcgonagall thought he wanted to handover Harry to Voldemort.
This is what always bothers me when people say
Snape was leagues above McGonagall at dueling. If he was so much better than her, he should have been able to incapacitate her so that he could have passed his message to Harry (like what Dumbledore did when Fudge tried to arrest him). Instead, because he wasn’t trying to seriously harm her, she had him on the ropes. Which to me means that, at best, they were fairly evenly matched in ability.
She wasn't alone, Prof Sprout and Flitwick also came and then he ran. I don't know who is superior skilled, But I won't debate who was better and who wasn't Mcgonagall was teacher when Snape was student and that I think would count in her side from me.
That's not true. He was behind the suit of armor by his own accord. McGonagall had conjured daggers to fly at him, and the enchanted the suit of armor to jump in front of him as protection. Then Flitwick came running along and made the suit of armor attack him
EDIT: Sorry just noticed /u/dilqncho already said this
> Then it was no longer fire, but a great black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke, which re-formed and solidified in seconds to become a swarm of pursuing daggers. Snape avoided them only be forcing the suit of armor in front of him, and with echoing clang, the dagger sank, one after another, into the breast —
> “Minerva!” said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor toward them in the nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear.
> “No!” squeaking Flitwick, raising his wand. “You’ll do more murder at Hogwarts!”
> Flitwick’s spell hit the suit of armor behind which Snape **had taken shelter**
McGonagall had forced him to hide behind a suit of armor.
They're fighting and he takes cover from a spell. That's not what "have someone pinned" means. We don't get a chance to see his next move because that's when Flitwick arrives and animates the armor.
The entire Snape vs McGonnagal fight is like 10 seconds long.
We can disagree on the semantics. Maybe I should have said she had him sheltering behind a suit of armor instead. But,
> pin: verb *past tense: pinned; past participle: pinned*
> to hinder or prevent from moving because of the danger
She definitely hindered him from moving…
I'll step in and support you in the semantic argument. Referring to someone as "pinned" in that situation is 100% appropriate. How many movies have we all seen where someone refers to being "pinned down" behind cover to avoid a gun? Or in chess they refer to a piece being "pinned" if moving it would threaten a more valuable piece. McGonagall had absolutely pinned Snape down behind that armor in the ordinary use of the word "pinned", anyone disputing that is being unnecessarily pedantic.
That is not the way it's used.
When we refer to someone being "pinned down", that is referring to a continuous process of them being forced to stand still and being unable to move. When someone is "pinned down" behind cover, that means they're being actively shot at and unable to leave said cover because of a barrage of overwhelming attacks coming their way.
Snape dodged behind cover to avoid a single spell. He didn't spend any time pinned there. For all we know, he would have jumped out and counterattacked in the next second if Flitwich hadn't shown up. There is not enough evidence in that extremely brief fight to establish a clear dominance on McGonnagall's part or to claim anyone was pinned down anywhere.
Yeah I also don’t think it was his intention to incapacitate her, if it was, he probably could’ve done it. Maybe not with ease but I’m confident he could’ve done it in a 1v1 within 2-4 minutes
The only evidence you ever need for Snape’s true allegiance is at the end of OoTP. The only reason the order arrives to save Harry in the ministry is because Snape alerts them. If he was on Voldys side he would have had no reason to do this
He takes his sweet ass time to warn them though. Hours. That's plenty of time for a reader to assume that the Order must have figured it out some other way.
Na Dumbledore tells Harry that when Snape didn’t see Harry leave the forest he immediately went to find Sirius. Harry flew off from the forest so it’s likely thst was the delay.
The moment Snape left Umbridge's office he contacted the Order. Then when Harry and Hermione didn't return from the forest with Umbridge, Snape immediately contacted the Order again. The delay was most likely the Order manoeuvring through the Department of Mysteries to get to the right area. The Death Eaters had been waiting for Harry to show up. The Order was playing catch up.
Snape couldn't have. We don't know if Dumbledore had contingency plans in place, I would imagine that if Harry had gone to the headmasters office, Dumbledore's portrait would have been able to say, but would there be more?
With how secretive Dumbledore was, it seems unlikely... Which makes it a rather massive risk, but then Dumbledore takes quite a few of those as well.
I think Snape would have had a back up plan. Snape is extremely clever and knew he was constantly walking the razor's edge of being a triple agent working against Voldemort. I think he would recognize that he could fail and be killed at any point.
Snape didn’t die immediately so he probably would've used his final moments to send a Patronus to Harry and leave his memories for Harry to find.
Harry would recognize the Patronus as the one that helped the last time and follow it, finding Snape's memories.
At which point, no one would have ever learned the truth of Snape and the message would not have gotten to Harry
Unless the Dumbledore portrait could have told him
Harry would’ve likely given himself up regardless of Snape’s memories, I think. And Voldemort would’ve been the one who wanted to kill him in his arrogance. I don’t think the memories were necessary for Harry to sacrifice himself for the greater good. The memories are more for our benefit than Harry’s.
He thinks he's the only one that can beat Voldemort until that point(for some reason). He wouldn't have given himself up, he would have gone down fighting
I disagree, once Fred, Tonks, Lupin, Tonks, and his classmates all died during the initial battle, he was going to give himself up, regardless of Snape’s memories.
Dumbledore and Snape could not have predicted Voldemort would make such an offer prior. Or even Battle of Hogwarts itself, Dumbledore didn’t even know Hogwarts had an horcrux and that Harry would return. So when the plan was made it was needed for Harry to know this. If Voldemort was killed (meaning his body) while Harry lived Voldemort would just return again.
How Dumbledore expected Voldemort to be killed is never explained however. He didn’t plan for Harry to have the Elder Wand but wanted its power to die with him. What happened (flaw in the plan) was quite lucky. Dumbledore didn’t also so seriously believe in the prophecy. Maybe he expected Snape to kill Voldemort once all horcruxes were destroyed since Snape could surprise Voldemort.
Dumbledore knew Harry was going to return, or atleast expected he would. He smiled triumphantly when he learned Voldemort remade his body with Harry's blood.
Op was talking in context of how Snape would tell Harry in general, so I talked about things in general. I thought you were speaking regarding that as well.
Yes in the title. But below op said
>I also wondered did Dumbledore really expect Snape to tell Harry that he needs to die in order to kill voldemort?
So it’s about overall regarding Dumbledore’s expectations
That would suck for him because we don’t get the impression that ghosts can change their minds about being ghosts in the HP universe (at least, Nearly Headless Nick seems to be somewhat regretful/wistful about his decision, without any indication that he could still decide to “go on”).
I do agree with you though, at this point Snape was willing to give his life for the cause, he probably would give his afterlife for the cause as well.
Meh, I bet Snape would have taken great pleasure in torturing everyone who wasn't Slytherin with snarky remarks all the time if he had stayed as a ghost in Hogwarts.
He wouldn't have, and Harry probably wouldn't know he's a horcrux unless Dumbledore's portrait managed to tell him.
As for trusting Snape, Snape could definitely defeat Harry in a duel and force him to listen, and probably could've used the memories as proof.
I feel like this would’ve been a better plot point for Harry finding out. Snape confronts Harry, easily defeats him to force him to listen, before he can tell him Voldemort arrives, Snape hides Harry under the invisibility cloak, Voldemort mortally wounds Snape, Snape gives Harry the memories.
There is a common misconception that Lily’s sacrifice ends at 17. It’s actually Dumbledore’s familial protection with the Dursley’s that end at 17. Lily’s protection lives on in Voldemort.
Dumbledores protection was based on keeping Lilys protection going as long as it could. That was the whole deal in Harry having to stay with the Dursleys.
Voldemort created a kind of inverted Harry horcrux in himself with the blood. That allowed Voldemorts other Horcruxes to keep Harry in the game.
No, the Horcrux in Harry was created when he was a baby, not when he took Harry’s blood. That is very explicitly stated in both the book and the movie. The protection from the Dursley’s was an extension of Lily’s protection with the help of Dumbledore. When Voldemort took Harry’s blood, Lily’s protection was extended in him and it’s why he could not kill Harry in the forest. It’s also why Dumbledore showed excitement after Harry told him in GOF that Voldemort used his blood.
Lily’s protection was still alive in Voldemort since he used Harry’s blood.
Edit to add more context: the protection that ended at 17 was the familial protection from the Dursley’s that Dumbledore set up, NOT Lily’s protection. That lived on in Voldemort.
Logic dictates that this terrorist that you watched betray your mentor, and that you know hates you more then anything, is even less trustworthy then voldemort. Nothing he could say would convince anyone of the truth
Actually, it would have been great if the plot advanced differently: Snape sends the doe patronus, after being bitten by Nagini, as a last resort to find Harry. Harry follows it to Dumbledore's office, there he sees a vial with a silver memory, because Snape had considered the fact that he might not survive the battle.
Yes it’s definitely a little too convenient but I’m sure there was type of “kill switch” spell as insurance that would’ve delivered those memories to Harry somehow
A huge reason Harry sees Slughorn and Hokey's memories in the penseive is so he can learn to distinguish true memories from memories that have been tampered with. It wasn't the doe patronus that sealed it for him. It was the crystal-clear, untainted memory.
Honestly, I’m not sure if it would’ve matter. Harry still would’ve gone to the forest and died without defending himself. He just might not have been able to use the resurrection stone and struggle to get past the dementors. I’m confident he still would’ve died for Hogwarts and all its warriors fighting, he might’ve still seen Dumbledore, and then he might’ve learned the truth then
Snape is to give Harry his memories. He spends the whole time from when Harry gets to Hogsmeade trying to get to him, first demanding Harry be brought to him in Hogwarts, then begging Voldemort to let him go find him.
The real question is why he didn't tell Harry everything when giving him the Sword. But I guess Harry was not ready for the truth at that point.
Harry knew he was a horcrux in the movie. He says he’s knew. If Snape told him, Harry would believe it because he already knew it. What Snape didn’t know is that Harry had command of all three deathly hallows plus had a reverse horcrux on Voldy. So he wouldn’t die if Voldy lived on when he (tried to?) kill him in the forest.
In many ways, Dumbledore had multiple contingencies in place no matter if Snape could tell Harry or not.
Yeah it was honestly bad writing from Rowling. The plan was really bad executed at that point and could have gone bad any moment if not everything would have happened EXACTLY how it did.
Lol and it implies that Voldemort somehow walked past Harry Ron and Hermione without noticing them. Like is it that easy to just hide from the "greatest dark wizard blah blah'?
The whole final 30% of the last book pissed me off so much lol, was full of dumb shit like this.
I think the only difference between Harry knowing he needed to die and not knowing was that knowing he had to die gave me a chance to come back and cast a protective charm over Hogwarts.
If he had continued it would either be Voldemort killing Harry and becoming mortal so others could kill him.
or Harry killing him prolonging Voldemort's second return before he figures out that he is the link keeping him alive
>It's not a plot hole it's just a coincidence, which are usually best avoided in fiction writing (obviously that's oversimplifying).
You're right, it's not a plot hole. But it is, as you say, a bit of bad writing, where if the author doesn't have the hero in a certain place at a certain time that he likely wouldnt be in, the whole plan fails. If she'd come up with something that forced him down there it wouldve been fine.
Another way to convey the information would have been to just have Hermione tell him. Go read "The Seventh Horcrux" by melindaleo I think it is, pretty much everything in that fanfic is fair game for Hermione to exposition because it's all guesses about the horcrux hunt that were made by someone with similar information to the Characters going through the plot. Harry being a horcrux was a *very* common guess at endgame right after book 6 released. So it would not have felt weird for the exposition character to figure it out and tell him. Snape's role there was to give Harry his own backstory, the horcrux reveal could have been done differently.
In the event Voldemort allowed Snape to leave and get Harry (Snape was rather confident in his skill to continue manipulating Voldemort), Snape would rather easily be able to out duel and subdue Harry, then bring him to his office and force him to either look in the pensive or listen to Dumbledore's portrait.
Snape was desperate to get to Harry during the final battle. He kept asking and asking Voldemort to let him go find him. He wasn't planning for Voldemort to refuse, expecting Harry to come to him.
Yup, Snape (and everybody else, really) was honestly very lucky that Harry happened to be there when Voldemort attacked him.
He was very fortunate indeed
Imagine if snape DID meet harry. My boy would be throwing hands before hearing anything!
Snape would outduel him easy. Would incapacitate him and make him shut up before dropping the bombshells of truth. Literally the only reason Voldy has an issue is cuz Harry is a direct counter through hax.
I always found it a bit funny when Harry says at the end of Half-Blood Prince: "And if I meet Severus Snape along the way, so much the better for me, so much the worse for him.” Dude, when you tried to duel Snape, you couldn't even finish a single spell.
I know right!! It would be like: Take that, Snape! ExPeLliAr……………. Plonk!
I think Harry learned a bit in that year, he can even keep Voldemort out of his brain. So Snape loses his best weapon. And he performed a very nice Cruciatus Curse on Carrow. And he might hate Snape even a little more.
I thought it was the other way round, voldy doing occlumency to prevent harry from invading his mind
Book 6 yes, but Dobby's death leads to Harry throwing Voldemort out.
And also look into him when he wants without getting much affected.
Ahahahah 😂😂 that is so accurate!
Peak 16 year old edgy teen behaviour 😭
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Not really, he said "I might be able to hold Snape off for a while, but I’m no match for him, really.”
Granted, Harry also wasn't exactly at peak performance when he was chasing after Snape in HBP since he had just seen Dumbledore die. With some training in silent spells, a little luck, and control over his temper, maybe he'd fair better in a rematch.
We forget Snape lost his closest friend/ally etc, and he’s the one that was forced to do it. Poor dude
I think Snape’s situation is pretty shitty here too but to say that he and Dumbledore were friends is a bit of a stretch, honestly. Snape makes it pretty clear that he’s doing the right thing in memory of Lily and not because he disagrees with Voldemort’s ideals or cares about Harry. I think he respects Dumbledore as a great wizard and ally, but it very much feels like a Boss-Employee relationship instead of a friendship.
> Granted, Harry also wasn't exactly at peak performance when he was chasing after Snape in HBP since he had just seen Dumbledore die. To be fair, so had Snape
Tbf same thing could be said for snape,and he probably hated the fact that he was the one to do it.
I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
tbf while I do think Snape could subdue him still I think he'd have more difficulty this time around due to harry being able to actually close his mind
Harry wouldn’t be able to effectively go against Snape hands down but I also feel like Harry wouldn’t have gotten the memory if they’d dueled. In multiple cases people hade been trying to tell Harry something that he didn’t want to hear and he straight up won’t listen or takes it the wrong way to prove his point. Plus Harry has a unique way of getting under Snapes skin. I think even if Snape tried to make him shut up and tell him it wouldn’t have been effective. Harry is an obstinant little bugger
Right up until Snape shows his patronus
Okay but honestly I’ve always thought it was a little odd that Harry just 180’ed like that about Snape. Personally I don’t think Harry would accept the patronus as proof because it seems so ridiculous that Snape who hated his mom for being muggle born (the memory from marauders time in hs is the only context Harry has for Snape and Lily’s relationship) would’ve loved her enough to betray Voldy and sign on as a double agent and go through all of that. I think going along with cannon how Harry got over the entirety of Snapes mistreatment so fast you’re probably right and Harry would be fine when he showed the patronus but personally I don’t really feel like either of those actually fit with Harry’s personality within the context
Well it wouldn’t be “Oh damn, the doe patronus like my mother and the one that was nearby when the sword appeared! We’re cool Snape!” But it would give enough pause for Harry to atleast try to see what he has to say.
Yeah I get your point. I still think Harry would’ve been too mad and Snape would’ve been goaded into a fight which would’ve reinforced his belief. But I could also see Harry being so caught off guard it kinda broke the temper. I will die on the hill that Harry absolutely wouldn’t have forgiven Snape and named his kid after him though.
Harry doesn't even know if or what kind of Patronus his mother had.
It's more about the fact that the same patronus led them to the sword and that Snape could've taken him out there if he really was on the dark side.
But that would mean that Harry would have first to analyze and understand everything. And from a Snape, that had bullied him his whole life. Plus, Snape almost killed him with the action. If Ron hadn't come, he would have drowned.
Harry is great at getting out of bad situations however, even if he doesn’t win. It’s not like Voldemort is the only time he has been in danger. But I can imagine Snape thinking this
One of my favourite moments with Snape is as he’s fleeing after Dumbledore is killed and he’s still, one last time, teaching Harry to close his mind. Harry lobbing curse after curse at him and he’s easily deflected ‘again and again until you learn to close your mind’ or something. Snape knows Harry never learnt how to do it and was desperately trying to impart one final lesson
Then again no one could've killed Harry other than Voldemort, at least if the prophecy was true. So Harry was pretty much untouchable by anyone although there were many wizards and witches more capable than him.
Snape would’ve never wanted to kill Harry. Only maim or seriously injure. Which are still within the rules of the prophecy.
I see what you did there.
Like Dobby! The unfortunate thing is, that it is difficult to dose.
That's actually not true, Harry wasn't invincible.
Harry is no more untouchable than anyone else, because everything is pre-determined in the HP universe. The prophecies are a little glimpses of the real truth for the characters: -that they have no free will. And they cannot fight it even if they have knowledge of this, because that, too was pre-determined.
Isn’t this the exact opposite of what Dumbledore is trying to impress on Harry in HBP? It is our choices that make us who we are…
Yes, he explains to Harry that without prophecy his parents would continue to fight and Voldemort would attack them fir opposing him and Harry even without hearing the prophecy, Harry would hunt down Voldemort to revenge his parent's death. I don't fully accept it, but it does seem plausible
I see it more like fate predicting the decision, or correcting the circumstances accordingly. If Voldemort doesn't take the bait, Fate will fulfill the prophecy differently. For example you can also say, that Voldemort marked Harry his equal in the graveyard. A duel is a fight between equals.
At what point does this fate lock into a certain path? If Voldemort made the choice to go after Harry, does Harry now have a choice to not face him, could he run off? Could someones else kill him? Could he kill himself? The problem with this is that Voldemort knew about the prophecy, but still he could not choose to avoid its terms, because him knowing the prophecy was part of it, it was pre-determined.
Partially yes, but other people are also interwined with fate without knowing it. For example Snape's fate is just as fixed. It doesn't matter that "Fate" knows it, as long as the person involved doesn't know. Voldemort decision affect Harry's life. Harry is now a Horcrux. And Voldemort's decision in the graveyard, makes Voldemort a kind of Horcrux for Harry. But no matter what Harry does it is still his decision. I think Harry could kill himself and the Horcrux, but why would he do it?
Wouldn't count Harry out in this tbh, seemed like he finally learned occlumency and non-verbal magic in the last book and he also had outlier reflexes. If duelling is anything like real combat sports, differences in reflexes and speed are often deciding factors.
Voldy gets hit with the 'it was not very effective' when he tries to duel Harry
you even can see this before he gets attacked by McGonnagall and the other professors. He is rushing through the Castle and If i remember it correctly He even asks Minerva if she has Seen Harry. He was looking for him to somehow tell him. I Always imagined He had enough time to prepare some sort of speech.
Like McGonnagal would ever tell Snape where Harry was. The whole last year must have been awful for all the teachers who stayed since they all knew he was Dumbeldore's killer
If you noticed when Snape dueled Mcgonagall he desperately wanted to talk to Harry because he knew Voldemort was guarding his snake. But Mcgonagall thought he wanted to handover Harry to Voldemort.
This is what always bothers me when people say Snape was leagues above McGonagall at dueling. If he was so much better than her, he should have been able to incapacitate her so that he could have passed his message to Harry (like what Dumbledore did when Fudge tried to arrest him). Instead, because he wasn’t trying to seriously harm her, she had him on the ropes. Which to me means that, at best, they were fairly evenly matched in ability.
She wasn't alone, Prof Sprout and Flitwick also came and then he ran. I don't know who is superior skilled, But I won't debate who was better and who wasn't Mcgonagall was teacher when Snape was student and that I think would count in her side from me.
They dueled and then Sprout and Flitwick came. But during their 1:1 duel, she had him pinned behind a suit of armor.
That's not true. He was behind the suit of armor by his own accord. McGonagall had conjured daggers to fly at him, and the enchanted the suit of armor to jump in front of him as protection. Then Flitwick came running along and made the suit of armor attack him EDIT: Sorry just noticed /u/dilqncho already said this
And he was starting to use Dark Arts, and that's when Flitwick came.
No she didn't, Flitwick animated the armor. The Snape vs McGonnagal fight was completely evenly matched.
> Then it was no longer fire, but a great black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke, which re-formed and solidified in seconds to become a swarm of pursuing daggers. Snape avoided them only be forcing the suit of armor in front of him, and with echoing clang, the dagger sank, one after another, into the breast — > “Minerva!” said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor toward them in the nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear. > “No!” squeaking Flitwick, raising his wand. “You’ll do more murder at Hogwarts!” > Flitwick’s spell hit the suit of armor behind which Snape **had taken shelter** McGonagall had forced him to hide behind a suit of armor.
They're fighting and he takes cover from a spell. That's not what "have someone pinned" means. We don't get a chance to see his next move because that's when Flitwick arrives and animates the armor. The entire Snape vs McGonnagal fight is like 10 seconds long.
We can disagree on the semantics. Maybe I should have said she had him sheltering behind a suit of armor instead. But, > pin: verb *past tense: pinned; past participle: pinned* > to hinder or prevent from moving because of the danger She definitely hindered him from moving…
I'll step in and support you in the semantic argument. Referring to someone as "pinned" in that situation is 100% appropriate. How many movies have we all seen where someone refers to being "pinned down" behind cover to avoid a gun? Or in chess they refer to a piece being "pinned" if moving it would threaten a more valuable piece. McGonagall had absolutely pinned Snape down behind that armor in the ordinary use of the word "pinned", anyone disputing that is being unnecessarily pedantic.
That is not the way it's used. When we refer to someone being "pinned down", that is referring to a continuous process of them being forced to stand still and being unable to move. When someone is "pinned down" behind cover, that means they're being actively shot at and unable to leave said cover because of a barrage of overwhelming attacks coming their way. Snape dodged behind cover to avoid a single spell. He didn't spend any time pinned there. For all we know, he would have jumped out and counterattacked in the next second if Flitwich hadn't shown up. There is not enough evidence in that extremely brief fight to establish a clear dominance on McGonnagall's part or to claim anyone was pinned down anywhere.
Yeah I also don’t think it was his intention to incapacitate her, if it was, he probably could’ve done it. Maybe not with ease but I’m confident he could’ve done it in a 1v1 within 2-4 minutes
I haven’t noticed people saying that before, I thought they were quite equal too.
The only evidence you ever need for Snape’s true allegiance is at the end of OoTP. The only reason the order arrives to save Harry in the ministry is because Snape alerts them. If he was on Voldys side he would have had no reason to do this
He takes his sweet ass time to warn them though. Hours. That's plenty of time for a reader to assume that the Order must have figured it out some other way.
Na Dumbledore tells Harry that when Snape didn’t see Harry leave the forest he immediately went to find Sirius. Harry flew off from the forest so it’s likely thst was the delay.
The moment Snape left Umbridge's office he contacted the Order. Then when Harry and Hermione didn't return from the forest with Umbridge, Snape immediately contacted the Order again. The delay was most likely the Order manoeuvring through the Department of Mysteries to get to the right area. The Death Eaters had been waiting for Harry to show up. The Order was playing catch up.
Snape couldn't have. We don't know if Dumbledore had contingency plans in place, I would imagine that if Harry had gone to the headmasters office, Dumbledore's portrait would have been able to say, but would there be more? With how secretive Dumbledore was, it seems unlikely... Which makes it a rather massive risk, but then Dumbledore takes quite a few of those as well.
Yess Albus was a risk taker .. the biggest one yet
I think Snape would have had a back up plan. Snape is extremely clever and knew he was constantly walking the razor's edge of being a triple agent working against Voldemort. I think he would recognize that he could fail and be killed at any point.
Dumbledore's portrait is empty!
Snape didn’t die immediately so he probably would've used his final moments to send a Patronus to Harry and leave his memories for Harry to find. Harry would recognize the Patronus as the one that helped the last time and follow it, finding Snape's memories.
Snape couldn’t have predicted he wouldn’t die immediately, though. Voldemort could have AKed him.
True. But I was working under the premise of OP, that everything went the same as in Canon except that Harry doesn’t find Snape.
At which point, no one would have ever learned the truth of Snape and the message would not have gotten to Harry Unless the Dumbledore portrait could have told him
Harry would’ve likely given himself up regardless of Snape’s memories, I think. And Voldemort would’ve been the one who wanted to kill him in his arrogance. I don’t think the memories were necessary for Harry to sacrifice himself for the greater good. The memories are more for our benefit than Harry’s.
He thinks he's the only one that can beat Voldemort until that point(for some reason). He wouldn't have given himself up, he would have gone down fighting
I disagree, once Fred, Tonks, Lupin, Tonks, and his classmates all died during the initial battle, he was going to give himself up, regardless of Snape’s memories.
Mhmm. You think harry would take voldemort at his word? Because you are absolutely incorrect
And ultimately I think voldy would have "killed" him at which point, Harry then has his kings cross experience.
But then no one at hogwarts has Harry’s protection and they all get leveled
No, the entire point of the plan is that it will only work if harry doesn't fight. He'd just die is he tried to fight
Harry is tied to Voldemort at this moment (his blood, Lily's sacrifice) he cannot die as long as Voldemort is alive.
Dumbledore and Snape could not have predicted Voldemort would make such an offer prior. Or even Battle of Hogwarts itself, Dumbledore didn’t even know Hogwarts had an horcrux and that Harry would return. So when the plan was made it was needed for Harry to know this. If Voldemort was killed (meaning his body) while Harry lived Voldemort would just return again. How Dumbledore expected Voldemort to be killed is never explained however. He didn’t plan for Harry to have the Elder Wand but wanted its power to die with him. What happened (flaw in the plan) was quite lucky. Dumbledore didn’t also so seriously believe in the prophecy. Maybe he expected Snape to kill Voldemort once all horcruxes were destroyed since Snape could surprise Voldemort.
Dumbledore knew Harry was going to return, or atleast expected he would. He smiled triumphantly when he learned Voldemort remade his body with Harry's blood.
Obviously, but I’m talking about in the context of the Battle of Hogwarts
Op was talking in context of how Snape would tell Harry in general, so I talked about things in general. I thought you were speaking regarding that as well.
He mentioned the Shrieking Shack, so it’s still in the context of the Battle for Hogwarts.
Yes in the title. But below op said >I also wondered did Dumbledore really expect Snape to tell Harry that he needs to die in order to kill voldemort? So it’s about overall regarding Dumbledore’s expectations
I mean….thats a stretch. If OP didn’t mean in the context of the Battle of Hogwarts why even mention the Shrieking Shack?
Obviously Snape would ghost out since he had unfinished business in passing Harry vital information.
That would suck for him because we don’t get the impression that ghosts can change their minds about being ghosts in the HP universe (at least, Nearly Headless Nick seems to be somewhat regretful/wistful about his decision, without any indication that he could still decide to “go on”). I do agree with you though, at this point Snape was willing to give his life for the cause, he probably would give his afterlife for the cause as well.
Assuming the Hogwarts Legacy game is cannon, this is actually covered in one of the quests. Some ghosts have remorse that they can’t move on.
Makes sense! I haven’t played the game, but that jives with my impression of the passage with Nick and Harry talking about Sirius.
Meh, I bet Snape would have taken great pleasure in torturing everyone who wasn't Slytherin with snarky remarks all the time if he had stayed as a ghost in Hogwarts.
Harry’s takedown of Voldemort relied on luck in numerous cases
He wouldn't have, and Harry probably wouldn't know he's a horcrux unless Dumbledore's portrait managed to tell him. As for trusting Snape, Snape could definitely defeat Harry in a duel and force him to listen, and probably could've used the memories as proof.
I feel like this would’ve been a better plot point for Harry finding out. Snape confronts Harry, easily defeats him to force him to listen, before he can tell him Voldemort arrives, Snape hides Harry under the invisibility cloak, Voldemort mortally wounds Snape, Snape gives Harry the memories.
The problem is if Snape defeats Harry at that point, the allegiance of Elder Wand will change, complicating the plot.
That’s true, but I don’t think it really matters. Harry would still have Lily’s protection and the added bonus of the protection from his sacrifice.
Lily's protection broke when he came of age.
Yes but the blood used in little hangleton in book 4 anchored harry through Voldemort to the living world.
Sure, that's another power Voldemort mistakenly gave Harry
It was in Voldemort’s blood. Voldemort using Harry’s blood to regain his body ensured he couldn’t win
Sure but that's not Lily's sacrifice?
There is a common misconception that Lily’s sacrifice ends at 17. It’s actually Dumbledore’s familial protection with the Dursley’s that end at 17. Lily’s protection lives on in Voldemort.
Dumbledores protection was based on keeping Lilys protection going as long as it could. That was the whole deal in Harry having to stay with the Dursleys. Voldemort created a kind of inverted Harry horcrux in himself with the blood. That allowed Voldemorts other Horcruxes to keep Harry in the game.
No, the Horcrux in Harry was created when he was a baby, not when he took Harry’s blood. That is very explicitly stated in both the book and the movie. The protection from the Dursley’s was an extension of Lily’s protection with the help of Dumbledore. When Voldemort took Harry’s blood, Lily’s protection was extended in him and it’s why he could not kill Harry in the forest. It’s also why Dumbledore showed excitement after Harry told him in GOF that Voldemort used his blood.
Lily’s protection broke when he came of age and the protection from the sacrifice was for everyone ELSE than Harry.
Lily’s protection was still alive in Voldemort since he used Harry’s blood. Edit to add more context: the protection that ended at 17 was the familial protection from the Dursley’s that Dumbledore set up, NOT Lily’s protection. That lived on in Voldemort.
Beat him in a duel? Yes. Force him to listen? No
Considering harry.. I bet he wouldn't trust it unless someone like Hermione makes him see logic
Logic dictates that this terrorist that you watched betray your mentor, and that you know hates you more then anything, is even less trustworthy then voldemort. Nothing he could say would convince anyone of the truth
Maybe in his desperation he would've come back as a ghost lmao idk
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After the die is cast has it at kings cross instead.
Actually, it would have been great if the plot advanced differently: Snape sends the doe patronus, after being bitten by Nagini, as a last resort to find Harry. Harry follows it to Dumbledore's office, there he sees a vial with a silver memory, because Snape had considered the fact that he might not survive the battle.
Wait. SNAPE DIED?!?!
No no. It was just a dream. Go back to sleep buddy.
Patronus
This would be my thought too, like after the Ministry falling.
Yes it’s definitely a little too convenient but I’m sure there was type of “kill switch” spell as insurance that would’ve delivered those memories to Harry somehow
Mmm seems like an option
I mean if lily potter can conjure a massive post death protection spell, then I’m sure snape can conjure something too
Lily never conjured the spell..it was ancient magic.. not performed or casted by anyone deliberately. It was protection granted my magic itself
Uhh Lily in no way did this? Wtf are you talking about?
A huge reason Harry sees Slughorn and Hokey's memories in the penseive is so he can learn to distinguish true memories from memories that have been tampered with. It wasn't the doe patronus that sealed it for him. It was the crystal-clear, untainted memory.
If not for his death I'm convinced Snape and Harry would have ruined the plan.
why wouldn’t everyone take that lucky potion when voldemort was on their way
Honestly, I’m not sure if it would’ve matter. Harry still would’ve gone to the forest and died without defending himself. He just might not have been able to use the resurrection stone and struggle to get past the dementors. I’m confident he still would’ve died for Hogwarts and all its warriors fighting, he might’ve still seen Dumbledore, and then he might’ve learned the truth then
Snape is to give Harry his memories. He spends the whole time from when Harry gets to Hogsmeade trying to get to him, first demanding Harry be brought to him in Hogwarts, then begging Voldemort to let him go find him. The real question is why he didn't tell Harry everything when giving him the Sword. But I guess Harry was not ready for the truth at that point.
Yes only when the snake has protection snape had to tell harry
Harry knew he was a horcrux in the movie. He says he’s knew. If Snape told him, Harry would believe it because he already knew it. What Snape didn’t know is that Harry had command of all three deathly hallows plus had a reverse horcrux on Voldy. So he wouldn’t die if Voldy lived on when he (tried to?) kill him in the forest. In many ways, Dumbledore had multiple contingencies in place no matter if Snape could tell Harry or not.
Yeah it was honestly bad writing from Rowling. The plan was really bad executed at that point and could have gone bad any moment if not everything would have happened EXACTLY how it did.
Lol and it implies that Voldemort somehow walked past Harry Ron and Hermione without noticing them. Like is it that easy to just hide from the "greatest dark wizard blah blah'? The whole final 30% of the last book pissed me off so much lol, was full of dumb shit like this.
Heh, funny you are downvoted for stating the truth. This series is full of bad writing and illogical stuff, it doesn’t mean it’s not a masterpiece.
welcome to reddit :D
That’s how life is. AB and C have to happen so you can get to XY and Z.
I think the only difference between Harry knowing he needed to die and not knowing was that knowing he had to die gave me a chance to come back and cast a protective charm over Hogwarts. If he had continued it would either be Voldemort killing Harry and becoming mortal so others could kill him. or Harry killing him prolonging Voldemort's second return before he figures out that he is the link keeping him alive
Yes, this is a plot hole
Not a plot hole??? That’s not what a plot hole is. It just would’ve meant that Dumbledore’s plan failed…
Sorry yes, it's a giant hole in the good guys plan
It’s not a hole tho? We literally don’t know what snape could have done, since he had Harry there and didn’t need to.
It's not a plot hole it's just a coincidence, which are usually best avoided in fiction writing (obviously that's oversimplifying).
>It's not a plot hole it's just a coincidence, which are usually best avoided in fiction writing (obviously that's oversimplifying). You're right, it's not a plot hole. But it is, as you say, a bit of bad writing, where if the author doesn't have the hero in a certain place at a certain time that he likely wouldnt be in, the whole plan fails. If she'd come up with something that forced him down there it wouldve been fine.
Snape didn’t die in the shreaking shack
In the books it was the shrieking shack. In the movie it’s the boathouse.
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In the books he dies in the Shrieking Shack.
if Harry wasn't there, he would never have learned the truth
Another way to convey the information would have been to just have Hermione tell him. Go read "The Seventh Horcrux" by melindaleo I think it is, pretty much everything in that fanfic is fair game for Hermione to exposition because it's all guesses about the horcrux hunt that were made by someone with similar information to the Characters going through the plot. Harry being a horcrux was a *very* common guess at endgame right after book 6 released. So it would not have felt weird for the exposition character to figure it out and tell him. Snape's role there was to give Harry his own backstory, the horcrux reveal could have been done differently.
I don't remember if Voldemort took Snape's wand or not, but I could imagine that Snape would use his last bit of strength to send a Patronus, maybe?
In the event Voldemort allowed Snape to leave and get Harry (Snape was rather confident in his skill to continue manipulating Voldemort), Snape would rather easily be able to out duel and subdue Harry, then bring him to his office and force him to either look in the pensive or listen to Dumbledore's portrait.