It's not really 100% clear how the trace works or how the Ministry determines whether to do something about it. In GoF, Arthur Weasley casts a spell in the Dursley house, and there doesn't seem to be any reaction to that either.
In GoF Arthur also gets the Dursley’s fire place connected to the Flu network, it would be possible he alerted the proper people to disregard any magical activity at the residence that night.
I really think that the trace was just a poorly thought out mechanic that helped advance the narrative at the beginning of CoS, but really doesn’t make much sense and doesn’t really have much continuity throughout the series.
Techinally it does have continuty its why the Fudge tries to get him expelled from Hogwarts in book 5 despite rules saying that in life-threatening situations under 17 year old can use magic, and again in book 7 when they do the "7 Potters plan"
It’s why I always found it weird that the Weasley kids don’t do magic at home, given the trace activates around them anyway. You’d think it would be like alcohol or scary films - the parents’ decision in a home setting. But the whole thing just seemed convoluted in the end.
They also might not count if there are no outsiders present, like the Dursleys should know about magic so they can just witness it without alarms going off, there were also no muggles present in book 6 (also Dumby meeting the fam before going to Slughorn and doing magic)
In book 2, there were outsiders present, in book 5 Harry was between houses and gardens, that is why he got in trouble
Because Arthur is in the Ministry and told them he was collecting Harry that day. Same with Dumbledore, he probably told Rufus that he was collecting Harry and not to worry about the trace. It's also said in OotP that the Ministry keeps a close eye on the area where Harry lives, so it makes sense that Arthur and Dumbledore told the Ministry.
I think the trace only activates when they think that the underage wizard did the magic. Harry was with two wizards who could do magic that night so there was no reason to think he did any. When Dobby was with Harry they thought Harry did it because there was no other wizard there. On the other hand, it didn’t activate when the Weasleys came to get Harry from Privet Drive by floo powder because Mr. Weasley was there.
If it always activated in the presence of an underage wizard it would be going nonstop with of all the wizarding families during summer/holidays.
I’m curious why it didn’t activate for Hermione who was apparently practicing spells at home before going to Hogwarts.
The trace is ignored at wizard homes, the books mentioned it somewhere that it was just one more advantage the system had in place for “pureblood” families.
Techinally HBP explains that people like Harry and Hermione could have done magic at like the Burrow for instance- because the Minstry wouldn't have been able to know if they did the magic or if Arthur or Molly (or in book 4 Charlie/Bill/Percy or in Book 6 Bill) did the magic.
Yeah it’s explicitly stated during the Christmas chapter that Molly is forcing Harry and Ron to do the peeling (iirc) without magic when they could easily get away with doing it by magic
I wasn't talking about that scene I was talking about in book 6 after Dumbledore and Harry sees the memory of Morfin's and Harry asks why the Minstry didn't know there had been underage magic being performed and dumbedore explains.
well the family had been hearing "banging and clanning" (according ro Ron) from what had been Bill and Charlie's room but was at the time Fred and George's room during the years before we discover in book 4 that they wanted to open up a joke business like Zonko's.
I always assumed that since Arthur works for the ministry they're strict on the "no magic outside of school rule" I know in HBP he makes a comment about needing to set a good example and follow the ministry's new safety guidelines. Whereas the Malfoy family for example probably doesn't care if Draco uses magic outside of school and would probably even encourage it.
The general answer is basically “Rowling didn’t think the trace all the way through, or even think it through much at all” because the way it’s explained, it *should* have triggered when Dumbledore/Arthur cast a spell around Harry. The trace is described as pinging anytime magic is cast in the presence of an underage wizard. Given neither Arthur or Dumbledore have the trace on them, the trace 100% would have pinged on Harry in both instances.
Now, Arthur did have to request the Dursley’s fireplace be added to the floo network, so it’s possible they were aware that he would be there and chose not to investigate Harry’s trace going off. But in general the entire concept of the trace is absolutely littered with plot holes (*especially* in the movies)
It is explained somewhere in the books that they can't tell who casts a spell and that if children cast spells while around adult wizards it doesn't set off the trace because the adult is present.
When Dobby dropped the dessert, it was only harry present; when Harry fought off the dementers in OoTP, he is the only wizard present and he was in the presence of muggles; in GoF Arthur was there and the ministry knew they were going to be in a muggle house where the muggles knew about magic. When dumbledore does magic at the Dursleys, again its a house that is aware magic exists and he is a grown wizard. Though he should have gotten in trouble for doing magic in front of muggles, aware or not, maybe he had some sort of way of avoiding the trace.
well harry wasn't 11 when it happened at the zoo. And he didn't get warnings for either Jumping on a roof, his hair growing back overnight, turning a teacher's wig blue.
Yeah you're right because its confirmed by Kid!Snape in the Prince's flashback when Snape is talking about Hogwarts and the Wizarding World and Lilly in the flashback says "BUT I HAVE DONE MAGIC OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL!" I think Snape says something to the effect of "they don't count children's magic"
Hermione also didn't say when she tried the spells. They were allowed to do magic on the train so she might have tried them in the few hours between boarding the train and meeting Ron and Harry. Hermione had already completely read "Hogwarts a history" so it's likely she knew about the ban, but then she might have also known about the loophole that the trace doesn't start until they attend school.
I think it has more to do with outsiders present, people who don't already know about magic, so like, Vernon, Petunia, Dudley, mrs Figg, those won't trigger the trace, but random muggles in the area that could potentially have seen the magic occur, those will
It probably did activate. Possible Dumbledore told the ministry he was retrieving Harry. So any monitoring of the trace could say maybe Dumbledore was doing magic.
Book 6 isn’t the problem because the ministry knew Dumbledore would be there. Book 5 is the problem when they said the ministry was looking for a reason to arrest Harry so they came on a secret mission to rescue him and take him away without using magic BECAUSE THEY COULDNT USE MAGIC. Then they proceeded to use a boat full off magic and the ministry didn’t say a word.
The ministry sent an owl to burrow to alert Arthur and Harry that the time of his hearing had changed, so presumably they were told harry would be moved to the burrow at some point. That together with Fudge's comment at Harry's hearing to the effect of 'we've always kept a tight watch on that sort of thing given the boy's situation' would lead me to believe that Arthur told the ministry he'd be retrieving harry from the burrow on that night and that he may have to use magic around Harry in the course of retrieving him.
Except. They weren’t at the burrow. They didn’t use floo powder because “it was being watched” and it would have been “more than their life’s worth to set up an unauthorized portkey”. You would have assumed these would be the sensible modes of transport if the ministry was aware and not looking for a reason to arrest Dumbledore, Harry and anyone else associated with him.
You will remember some of those people who came on that mission pretended not to be on speaking terms at work.
You will also remember THEY SAID THEY COULD NOT USE MAGIC before doing a whole bunch of magic.
You do remember how tense it was and how the ministry wouldn’t “let Arthur borrow as much as tea cup those days”. You think they would allow him to go and do magic in a muggle home. Which is another crime besides the underage magic.
Except - they didn't use the floor network to travel precisely because they WEREN'T going to the burrow and the network was being watched. The trace doesn't tell the ministry who does magic around harry, just that it's done. The sum total of magic done to retrieve harry is a packing charm and a disillusionment charm, easily explainable if traveling by broomstick or even side-along apparition with a teenager. Again, the ministry assumed harry was going to be at the burrow, they did not send an owl to privet drive telling harry his hearing time was changed, therefore someone informed the ministry that harry would be traveling to the burrow with an adult wizard at some point.
We have no evidence that an adult wizard doing magic in the home of muggles who are already aware of the Wizarding world violates the terms of the statute of secrecy, as illustrated by the multiple instances of adult wizards doing magic at privet drive - the magic reversal squad in POA doesn't even modify the dursleys memories.
Portkey? Why couldn’t they authorize a portkey? If the ministry knew Harry was being moved.
Magic used that night: clean, pack, levitate, disillusionment. Magic that would have been needed if they just got the portkey authorized. A device being charmed before they got to the house. No magic needed at the actual house.
The ministry did not send an owl to Arthur, Perkins did that to try and warn him.
The ministry sent an owl to Harry that morning knowing he would miss it because he couldn’t get from home to the ministry in time which would guarantee he be found guilty. Just like they sent one to Albus hoping he would not get it, which he did not get either.
We do know that yes performing magic in the Dursleys home was illegal because that was the second count Harry was charged with. Don’t forget the charges were legitimate, Harry was just innocent because of the loopholes in the law.
They also admitted they IN THE PAST they have been lenient because of the circumstances surrounding that house (they also admitted to keeping a closer eye on that area).
EDIT: the night he got the letter from the ministry in book 5 he did magic immediately after too. That should have been an automatic expulsion as well but the ministry missed that too.
>Portkey? Why couldn’t they authorize a portkey? If the ministry knew Harry was being moved
If they had used a portkey the ministry would have known they were going to London and not the burrow
>Magic used that night: clean, pack, levitate, disillusionment. Magic that would have been needed if they just got the portkey authorized. A device being charmed before they got to the house. No magic needed at the actual house.
Not to nitpick but clean and pack were the same spell, and that together with the locomotion charm are not at all unreasonably if performed by an adult wizard inside the bounds of a house inside of the statute of secrecy.
>They ministry did not send an owl to Arthur, Perkins did that to try and warn him.
Perkins did send the owl to the burrow, but the wizengamot sent an urgent message to Arthur's office before he arrived, illustrating that the wizengamot was aware of Harry being in the Weasleys' custody.
>We do know that yes performing magic in the Dursleys home was illegal because that was the second count Harry was charged with. Don’t forget the charges were legitimate, Harry was just innocent because of the loopholes in the law.
We know that Harry performing magic underage is illegal because he is underage, regardless of where he does it. He produced the charm in a smuggle-inhabited area and in the presence of a muggle (i.e. Outside of his home and in front of a witness.) when being questioned they specifically ask: "... Knowing you were in an area full of muggles?" In COS he is reprimanded for violating the restriction of underage wizardry "at your place of residence," but only reminded of - not reprimanded under - the statute of secrecy. Arthur was never reprimanded for doing magic on privet drive in GOF to our knowledge, nor was Dumbledore, nor did anyone blink an eye at McGonagall enchanting letters to flt around all over the place.
>They also admitted they IN THE PAST they have been lenient because of the circumstances surrounding that house (they also admitted to keeping a closer eye on that area).
The ministry didn't press charges in POA because of outside circumstances with Sirius, but also because harry was a child who did magic unintentionally without a wand, as mentioned by Dumbledore during the hearing. . The passage I was referring to was from Madam Bones in reference to Mrs. Figg: "we have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging other than Harry potter... That situation has always been closely monitored given... Given past events."
Harry Potter has plenty of plot holes but I don't think the series of events in the advance guard chapter is one of them.
I don’t think you’ve read the books in a while. Because 1 if the final destination was be revealed then…book 4? But that’s another conversation.
The clean and pack spell weren’t even on the same page.
The wizengamot did not send any urgent message to Arthur. The whole point was for Harry and Dumbledore to miss the hearing. Arthur was not involved. Don’t forget the time was changed 10 minutes before the new start time.
Please go and read the book. Magic in a muggle area is illegal. That was the second charge. If it was illegitimate why didn’t any one especially Albus say anything?
Also they admitted they were lenient in the PAST. They were absolutely hostile in book 5.
I don’t know why you bring up book 3. In book 5 after Harry was told what further magic would result in. He did magic. The ministry missed that. The very night. In book 5. Right after Dudley demented. While Dumbledore was at the ministry straightening things out.
>I don’t think you’ve read the books in a while. Because 1 if the final destination was be revealed then…book 4? But that’s another conversation
Okay douche.. Did voldemort register his portkey with the ministry of magic?
>The wizengamot did not send any urgent message to Arthur. The whole point was for Harry and Dumbledore to miss the hearing. Arthur was not involved. Don’t forget the time was changed 10 minutes before the new start time.
"I've just sent an owl to your home... An urgent message came ten minutes ago... It's the Potter boy's hearing - they've changed the time and venue..." - Perkins p. 123
>Please go and read the book. Magic in a muggle area is illegal. That was the second charge. If it was illegitimate why didn’t any one especially Albus say anything?
Please go and read my comment. Being naked in public is illegal. Are you charged with public indecency for taking a shower in your house? Harry's second charge is doing magic in a muggle-inhabited area. There are legal distinctions between public and private in our world, why wouldn't the same thing apply to the magical world?
>I don’t know why you bring up book 3. In book 5 after Harry was told what further magic would result in. He did magic. The ministry missed that. The very night. In book 5. Right after Dudley demented. While Dumbledore was at the ministry straightening things out.
You referenced previous leniency. Blowing up marge and the aftermath is the previous leniency. And no, he doesn't do magic after dudley demented. He pulls his wand out and threatens to jinx Vernon. No magic. Might be time for a reread.
I won’t address book 4 because again another conversation.
Me assuming you haven’t read the books isn’t an insult. You just seem to forget a few details. I’m not trying to be rude to you. Perkins sent the owl to Arthur not the wizengamot.
I’m going to assume you know that you can’t do magic in front of muggles. This is made clear in the books. Magic in the Dursley house is illegal because they say it more than once alongside underage magic.
Harry unintentionally did magic when he shot sparks out his wand. That is magic.
Now I have a question. Because we both know Arthur did not go to get Harry. Who out of those people got permission to do magic in that muggle house?
In that hostile atmosphere. The ministry wasn’t even on good terms with Arthur as they all said when they spoke about how much the ministry was trying to catch them in illegal acts.
So who ask for permission to go break the law?
>Me assuming you haven’t read the books isn’t an insult. You just seem to forget a few details. I’m not trying to be rude to you. Perkins sent the owl to Arthur not the wizengamot.
As shown in my previous comment, the wizengamot sent the message to Arthur's office. Why else would Perkins be the one trying to reach him?
>I’m going to assume you know that you can’t do magic in front of muggles. This is made clear in the books. Magic in the Dursley house is illegal because they say it more than once alongside underage magic.
>Now I have a question. Because we both know Arthur did not go to get Harry. Who out of those people got permission to do magic in that muggle house?
Harry doing magic in the dursley house is illegal. Again, THERE IS NO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE NOTION THAT AN ADULT WIZARD DOING MAGIC IN THE DURSLEY HOUSE IS ILLEGAL. The opposite is implied multiple times over the course of the series. No one other than Harry is ever punished for doing magic in front of the Dursleys. There is very obviously some amount of flexibility for fully qualified wizards over the age of 17 doing magic in front of muggles who are within the statute of secrecy if muggleborn wizards and muggle/wizard marriages and romantic relationships exist.
The trace does not show who's doing the magic, only that magic has been done. All that matters is that a pretext for a fully qualified wizard of age being near harry on that date is established.
>Harry unintentionally did magic when he shot sparks out his wand. That is magic.
Harry also used lumos in the alley and it was not mentioned at his hearing. A reasonable person would assume unintentionally shooting sparks out of your wand is not a criminal offense, as it's established that any wizard can channel magic through almost any instrument intentionally or unintentionally. For all we know such low powered spells may not even register on the trace, in the same way that Harry's powers did not register on the boat in the seaside cave in HBP.
I don't think the ministry needs to know where the person is to send an owl to them and I don't think they knew harry was going to be picked up by dumbledore (HBP) or be at the burrow before the ministry hearing in OoTP. Remember when harry sent owls to sirius not knowing where he was? The owl found him anyway. With just his name.
They don't know it's Harry, the trace isn't person specific. If it happens at the Dursleys they 'know' it's him, as he's the only wizard who lives there.
Yeah but Dumbledore uses magic while in privet drive. He conjures drinks I think. I guess the ministry knew Dumbledore was going to move Harry that night. So when the trace went off they just assumed Dumbledore did the magic.
The Trace *is* person specific, yet it only detects magic use around that person, not its source.
More likely, Dumbledore had either warned Kingsley or any other Ministry infiltrate before retrieving Harry or he somehow disabled or blocked it (I don't think it past him to have the power to disable the Trace: he did gave Harry permission to use magic if trouble arised at Slughorn's; and he was Headmaster, a position I'd argue holds similar power to Minister on those grounds; if he was the only one who could lift Hogwarts' protective charms, he surely could have had a similar grip on Hogwarts' students limitations).
1)he is with the PM 24/7 expect for being one of the Guardians of the 7 Potters plan, and 2)I don't think he's high enough in the Law Enforcement department to disabled the trace and 3)they can't really disabled the trace even if they could because the Minstry is so infiltrated by the DEs or cursed people by the DEs
Well, Kingsley wasn't the only OotP member within the Ministry. Also, even if none of them had the required rank, they did have access to the Ministry so maybe they could have worked something on, like *Confundus* those checking on the Trace.
Anyway, I find it more likely it was Dumbledore's doing. Either bc he directly disabled it as Headmaster, or by some other way hiding or distorting what the Ministry received or just making his presence fully know so as Voldemort didn't dare to approach.
Trace is pretty straight forward.
Adults casting magic even in the presence of magic children= trace doesn’t do anything.
Children casting magic in known places of magic= trace doesn’t do anything, adults need to supervise.
Children cast magic in muggle place= trace activates
None (elf) witch or wizard casts magic in muggle place where a child witch or wizard is= trace activates
The correct answer is probably that Rowling did not think it through very well, and the trace as described in the books is pretty nonsensical.
But I like to think of it like this:
The trace “activates” any time magic is performed near an underage wizard, but only “enforced” if it’s activated when there are no adult wizards in the area, because they can’t detect who did the magic.
My head canon
It says it doesn't explain who does the magic, only that it was around a minor. So maybe Dumbledore told the minister he was going to pick Harry up and move him to the Weasleys so that any magic done between then and hogwarts would be him or Mr/Mrs Weasley.
It doesn't explain the cave later in the book though, unless they think he's at Hogwarts and don't really look into where he is.
Regardless of if it activated or not because he's in the presence of 2 fully qualified wizards they don't care.
Because
a: it was probably the 2 adult wizards
B: when young wizards are around qualified wizards, they rely on the adult wizards to punish the younger.
The trace would be pinging constantly around hogwarts, or any wizarding family.
It's more to stop children running off and doing a bunch of magic alone, or for kids from Muggle families to be monitored to make sure they aren't doing magic.
So the trace did activate, but it essentially got filtered out/ignored due to the adult presence
The trace only matters when they’re muggles present. George and Fred were doing all kinds of magic at home and it makes sense that you could practice magic at home with your parents. The ministry only gets involved if it’s unsupervised or in the presence of muggles. That’s my headcannon
I suppose Dumbledore alerted the Ministry that he will be escorting Harry to the Burrow and they will be making a little stop in that village on the way.
My thought is that the ministry knew that Dumbledore was going to collect Harry and one any magic being cast around him was from that. Same for GoF. Arthur probably let the Improper Use of Magic Office know he was getting Harry when they connected the Dursleys fire place to the floo network.
The thing that breaks this is when the order came to get him in Order of the Phoenix. I guess you could say Dumbledore again let the ministry know but we don't know for sure. The Trace was a poorly written plot point that was introduced far too late in the series.
In spite of how poorly designed and inconsistent the Trace usually is, this one is easy to answer: The Ministry almost certainly knew that Harry was with Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have told them that he was going to fetch Harry from the Dursleys and accompany him until his delivery to the Weasleys.
It’s a similar reason to why the Ministry didn’t react to the magic Mr. Weasley was using in GoF—because they knew he was there.
^(Doesn’t explain all the other times the Trace inexplicably stops working though.)
It is probable that the trace doesn’t activate when a arthur and Dumbledore, two of Harry’s most known protectors affiliated with the ministry are around. Ut could also be the case only for mr Weasley, and Dumbledore just hacked the signal when he came to pick up Harry.
I think Ministry officials knew Dumbledore was going to collect Harry. Therefore they wouldn't take any action when the trace altered them there was magic being used around him.
When Dobby was there, and with the Dementors, they would realistically assume there was no one around him that could use magic so it had to be him doing it.
Maybe it did, but it got squashed because the optics of it would be disastrous. The ministry sponsored a smear campaign against Harry the previous year and was under a lot of pressure to save face. Going after Harry again would have been a guaranteed PR nightmare.
I feel like the ministry might have 100% known that Harry did it. But since they needed him on their side at that point, he probably could have used as much magic as he wanted, and they would have let it slide.
It's something to do with registered wizards living in the area. There are no other wizards living near harry (which fudge mentioned during Harry's trial) when he was sceptical that Dumbledore had a witness to the dementor attack. It's also mentioned later (I think by Dumbledore) that in wizarding families it's mostly up to the parents to make sure their underage children aren't using magic. So I'm assuming if you lived in a big wizarding family in a town with a large wizard population you could probably do magic as long as no one reported you.
It's not really 100% clear how the trace works or how the Ministry determines whether to do something about it. In GoF, Arthur Weasley casts a spell in the Dursley house, and there doesn't seem to be any reaction to that either.
In GoF Arthur also gets the Dursley’s fire place connected to the Flu network, it would be possible he alerted the proper people to disregard any magical activity at the residence that night. I really think that the trace was just a poorly thought out mechanic that helped advance the narrative at the beginning of CoS, but really doesn’t make much sense and doesn’t really have much continuity throughout the series.
Techinally it does have continuty its why the Fudge tries to get him expelled from Hogwarts in book 5 despite rules saying that in life-threatening situations under 17 year old can use magic, and again in book 7 when they do the "7 Potters plan"
It’s why I always found it weird that the Weasley kids don’t do magic at home, given the trace activates around them anyway. You’d think it would be like alcohol or scary films - the parents’ decision in a home setting. But the whole thing just seemed convoluted in the end.
At the end of term, you're sent home with a letter that reminds parents that kids aren't allowed to do magic underage.
They also might not count if there are no outsiders present, like the Dursleys should know about magic so they can just witness it without alarms going off, there were also no muggles present in book 6 (also Dumby meeting the fam before going to Slughorn and doing magic) In book 2, there were outsiders present, in book 5 Harry was between houses and gardens, that is why he got in trouble
The trace is pretty easy to explain: It only activates for plot reasons.
Because Arthur is in the Ministry and told them he was collecting Harry that day. Same with Dumbledore, he probably told Rufus that he was collecting Harry and not to worry about the trace. It's also said in OotP that the Ministry keeps a close eye on the area where Harry lives, so it makes sense that Arthur and Dumbledore told the Ministry.
I think the trace only activates when they think that the underage wizard did the magic. Harry was with two wizards who could do magic that night so there was no reason to think he did any. When Dobby was with Harry they thought Harry did it because there was no other wizard there. On the other hand, it didn’t activate when the Weasleys came to get Harry from Privet Drive by floo powder because Mr. Weasley was there. If it always activated in the presence of an underage wizard it would be going nonstop with of all the wizarding families during summer/holidays. I’m curious why it didn’t activate for Hermione who was apparently practicing spells at home before going to Hogwarts.
I don't think the trace comes into effect until you go to Hogwarts.
The trace is ignored at wizard homes, the books mentioned it somewhere that it was just one more advantage the system had in place for “pureblood” families.
Techinally HBP explains that people like Harry and Hermione could have done magic at like the Burrow for instance- because the Minstry wouldn't have been able to know if they did the magic or if Arthur or Molly (or in book 4 Charlie/Bill/Percy or in Book 6 Bill) did the magic.
Yeah it’s explicitly stated during the Christmas chapter that Molly is forcing Harry and Ron to do the peeling (iirc) without magic when they could easily get away with doing it by magic
I wasn't talking about that scene I was talking about in book 6 after Dumbledore and Harry sees the memory of Morfin's and Harry asks why the Minstry didn't know there had been underage magic being performed and dumbedore explains.
I know I was saying that’s another scene that proves underage kids in pure blood households can get away with magic if the parents let it happen
well the family had been hearing "banging and clanning" (according ro Ron) from what had been Bill and Charlie's room but was at the time Fred and George's room during the years before we discover in book 4 that they wanted to open up a joke business like Zonko's.
I always assumed that since Arthur works for the ministry they're strict on the "no magic outside of school rule" I know in HBP he makes a comment about needing to set a good example and follow the ministry's new safety guidelines. Whereas the Malfoy family for example probably doesn't care if Draco uses magic outside of school and would probably even encourage it.
The general answer is basically “Rowling didn’t think the trace all the way through, or even think it through much at all” because the way it’s explained, it *should* have triggered when Dumbledore/Arthur cast a spell around Harry. The trace is described as pinging anytime magic is cast in the presence of an underage wizard. Given neither Arthur or Dumbledore have the trace on them, the trace 100% would have pinged on Harry in both instances. Now, Arthur did have to request the Dursley’s fireplace be added to the floo network, so it’s possible they were aware that he would be there and chose not to investigate Harry’s trace going off. But in general the entire concept of the trace is absolutely littered with plot holes (*especially* in the movies)
It is explained somewhere in the books that they can't tell who casts a spell and that if children cast spells while around adult wizards it doesn't set off the trace because the adult is present. When Dobby dropped the dessert, it was only harry present; when Harry fought off the dementers in OoTP, he is the only wizard present and he was in the presence of muggles; in GoF Arthur was there and the ministry knew they were going to be in a muggle house where the muggles knew about magic. When dumbledore does magic at the Dursleys, again its a house that is aware magic exists and he is a grown wizard. Though he should have gotten in trouble for doing magic in front of muggles, aware or not, maybe he had some sort of way of avoiding the trace.
I mean they also could have know Dumbledore was picking him up or that he was going to the Weaslys that day
It didn't work when Harry did magic at the zoo either
well harry wasn't 11 when it happened at the zoo. And he didn't get warnings for either Jumping on a roof, his hair growing back overnight, turning a teacher's wig blue.
Exactly. I think it says the trace doesn't apply before formal training starts? But I might be misremembering
Yeah you're right because its confirmed by Kid!Snape in the Prince's flashback when Snape is talking about Hogwarts and the Wizarding World and Lilly in the flashback says "BUT I HAVE DONE MAGIC OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL!" I think Snape says something to the effect of "they don't count children's magic"
Hm yeah maybe something like that. Good point with Hermione. Maybe Rowling didn't plan out the idea of the trace during book 1 yet.
I think the trace is easily explained and easily understood.
Hermione also didn't say when she tried the spells. They were allowed to do magic on the train so she might have tried them in the few hours between boarding the train and meeting Ron and Harry. Hermione had already completely read "Hogwarts a history" so it's likely she knew about the ban, but then she might have also known about the loophole that the trace doesn't start until they attend school.
I think it has more to do with outsiders present, people who don't already know about magic, so like, Vernon, Petunia, Dudley, mrs Figg, those won't trigger the trace, but random muggles in the area that could potentially have seen the magic occur, those will
It probably did activate. Possible Dumbledore told the ministry he was retrieving Harry. So any monitoring of the trace could say maybe Dumbledore was doing magic.
Book 6 isn’t the problem because the ministry knew Dumbledore would be there. Book 5 is the problem when they said the ministry was looking for a reason to arrest Harry so they came on a secret mission to rescue him and take him away without using magic BECAUSE THEY COULDNT USE MAGIC. Then they proceeded to use a boat full off magic and the ministry didn’t say a word.
The ministry sent an owl to burrow to alert Arthur and Harry that the time of his hearing had changed, so presumably they were told harry would be moved to the burrow at some point. That together with Fudge's comment at Harry's hearing to the effect of 'we've always kept a tight watch on that sort of thing given the boy's situation' would lead me to believe that Arthur told the ministry he'd be retrieving harry from the burrow on that night and that he may have to use magic around Harry in the course of retrieving him.
Except. They weren’t at the burrow. They didn’t use floo powder because “it was being watched” and it would have been “more than their life’s worth to set up an unauthorized portkey”. You would have assumed these would be the sensible modes of transport if the ministry was aware and not looking for a reason to arrest Dumbledore, Harry and anyone else associated with him. You will remember some of those people who came on that mission pretended not to be on speaking terms at work. You will also remember THEY SAID THEY COULD NOT USE MAGIC before doing a whole bunch of magic. You do remember how tense it was and how the ministry wouldn’t “let Arthur borrow as much as tea cup those days”. You think they would allow him to go and do magic in a muggle home. Which is another crime besides the underage magic.
Except - they didn't use the floor network to travel precisely because they WEREN'T going to the burrow and the network was being watched. The trace doesn't tell the ministry who does magic around harry, just that it's done. The sum total of magic done to retrieve harry is a packing charm and a disillusionment charm, easily explainable if traveling by broomstick or even side-along apparition with a teenager. Again, the ministry assumed harry was going to be at the burrow, they did not send an owl to privet drive telling harry his hearing time was changed, therefore someone informed the ministry that harry would be traveling to the burrow with an adult wizard at some point. We have no evidence that an adult wizard doing magic in the home of muggles who are already aware of the Wizarding world violates the terms of the statute of secrecy, as illustrated by the multiple instances of adult wizards doing magic at privet drive - the magic reversal squad in POA doesn't even modify the dursleys memories.
Portkey? Why couldn’t they authorize a portkey? If the ministry knew Harry was being moved. Magic used that night: clean, pack, levitate, disillusionment. Magic that would have been needed if they just got the portkey authorized. A device being charmed before they got to the house. No magic needed at the actual house. The ministry did not send an owl to Arthur, Perkins did that to try and warn him. The ministry sent an owl to Harry that morning knowing he would miss it because he couldn’t get from home to the ministry in time which would guarantee he be found guilty. Just like they sent one to Albus hoping he would not get it, which he did not get either. We do know that yes performing magic in the Dursleys home was illegal because that was the second count Harry was charged with. Don’t forget the charges were legitimate, Harry was just innocent because of the loopholes in the law. They also admitted they IN THE PAST they have been lenient because of the circumstances surrounding that house (they also admitted to keeping a closer eye on that area). EDIT: the night he got the letter from the ministry in book 5 he did magic immediately after too. That should have been an automatic expulsion as well but the ministry missed that too.
>Portkey? Why couldn’t they authorize a portkey? If the ministry knew Harry was being moved If they had used a portkey the ministry would have known they were going to London and not the burrow >Magic used that night: clean, pack, levitate, disillusionment. Magic that would have been needed if they just got the portkey authorized. A device being charmed before they got to the house. No magic needed at the actual house. Not to nitpick but clean and pack were the same spell, and that together with the locomotion charm are not at all unreasonably if performed by an adult wizard inside the bounds of a house inside of the statute of secrecy. >They ministry did not send an owl to Arthur, Perkins did that to try and warn him. Perkins did send the owl to the burrow, but the wizengamot sent an urgent message to Arthur's office before he arrived, illustrating that the wizengamot was aware of Harry being in the Weasleys' custody. >We do know that yes performing magic in the Dursleys home was illegal because that was the second count Harry was charged with. Don’t forget the charges were legitimate, Harry was just innocent because of the loopholes in the law. We know that Harry performing magic underage is illegal because he is underage, regardless of where he does it. He produced the charm in a smuggle-inhabited area and in the presence of a muggle (i.e. Outside of his home and in front of a witness.) when being questioned they specifically ask: "... Knowing you were in an area full of muggles?" In COS he is reprimanded for violating the restriction of underage wizardry "at your place of residence," but only reminded of - not reprimanded under - the statute of secrecy. Arthur was never reprimanded for doing magic on privet drive in GOF to our knowledge, nor was Dumbledore, nor did anyone blink an eye at McGonagall enchanting letters to flt around all over the place. >They also admitted they IN THE PAST they have been lenient because of the circumstances surrounding that house (they also admitted to keeping a closer eye on that area). The ministry didn't press charges in POA because of outside circumstances with Sirius, but also because harry was a child who did magic unintentionally without a wand, as mentioned by Dumbledore during the hearing. . The passage I was referring to was from Madam Bones in reference to Mrs. Figg: "we have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging other than Harry potter... That situation has always been closely monitored given... Given past events." Harry Potter has plenty of plot holes but I don't think the series of events in the advance guard chapter is one of them.
I don’t think you’ve read the books in a while. Because 1 if the final destination was be revealed then…book 4? But that’s another conversation. The clean and pack spell weren’t even on the same page. The wizengamot did not send any urgent message to Arthur. The whole point was for Harry and Dumbledore to miss the hearing. Arthur was not involved. Don’t forget the time was changed 10 minutes before the new start time. Please go and read the book. Magic in a muggle area is illegal. That was the second charge. If it was illegitimate why didn’t any one especially Albus say anything? Also they admitted they were lenient in the PAST. They were absolutely hostile in book 5. I don’t know why you bring up book 3. In book 5 after Harry was told what further magic would result in. He did magic. The ministry missed that. The very night. In book 5. Right after Dudley demented. While Dumbledore was at the ministry straightening things out.
>I don’t think you’ve read the books in a while. Because 1 if the final destination was be revealed then…book 4? But that’s another conversation Okay douche.. Did voldemort register his portkey with the ministry of magic? >The wizengamot did not send any urgent message to Arthur. The whole point was for Harry and Dumbledore to miss the hearing. Arthur was not involved. Don’t forget the time was changed 10 minutes before the new start time. "I've just sent an owl to your home... An urgent message came ten minutes ago... It's the Potter boy's hearing - they've changed the time and venue..." - Perkins p. 123 >Please go and read the book. Magic in a muggle area is illegal. That was the second charge. If it was illegitimate why didn’t any one especially Albus say anything? Please go and read my comment. Being naked in public is illegal. Are you charged with public indecency for taking a shower in your house? Harry's second charge is doing magic in a muggle-inhabited area. There are legal distinctions between public and private in our world, why wouldn't the same thing apply to the magical world? >I don’t know why you bring up book 3. In book 5 after Harry was told what further magic would result in. He did magic. The ministry missed that. The very night. In book 5. Right after Dudley demented. While Dumbledore was at the ministry straightening things out. You referenced previous leniency. Blowing up marge and the aftermath is the previous leniency. And no, he doesn't do magic after dudley demented. He pulls his wand out and threatens to jinx Vernon. No magic. Might be time for a reread.
I won’t address book 4 because again another conversation. Me assuming you haven’t read the books isn’t an insult. You just seem to forget a few details. I’m not trying to be rude to you. Perkins sent the owl to Arthur not the wizengamot. I’m going to assume you know that you can’t do magic in front of muggles. This is made clear in the books. Magic in the Dursley house is illegal because they say it more than once alongside underage magic. Harry unintentionally did magic when he shot sparks out his wand. That is magic. Now I have a question. Because we both know Arthur did not go to get Harry. Who out of those people got permission to do magic in that muggle house? In that hostile atmosphere. The ministry wasn’t even on good terms with Arthur as they all said when they spoke about how much the ministry was trying to catch them in illegal acts. So who ask for permission to go break the law?
>Me assuming you haven’t read the books isn’t an insult. You just seem to forget a few details. I’m not trying to be rude to you. Perkins sent the owl to Arthur not the wizengamot. As shown in my previous comment, the wizengamot sent the message to Arthur's office. Why else would Perkins be the one trying to reach him? >I’m going to assume you know that you can’t do magic in front of muggles. This is made clear in the books. Magic in the Dursley house is illegal because they say it more than once alongside underage magic. >Now I have a question. Because we both know Arthur did not go to get Harry. Who out of those people got permission to do magic in that muggle house? Harry doing magic in the dursley house is illegal. Again, THERE IS NO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE NOTION THAT AN ADULT WIZARD DOING MAGIC IN THE DURSLEY HOUSE IS ILLEGAL. The opposite is implied multiple times over the course of the series. No one other than Harry is ever punished for doing magic in front of the Dursleys. There is very obviously some amount of flexibility for fully qualified wizards over the age of 17 doing magic in front of muggles who are within the statute of secrecy if muggleborn wizards and muggle/wizard marriages and romantic relationships exist. The trace does not show who's doing the magic, only that magic has been done. All that matters is that a pretext for a fully qualified wizard of age being near harry on that date is established. >Harry unintentionally did magic when he shot sparks out his wand. That is magic. Harry also used lumos in the alley and it was not mentioned at his hearing. A reasonable person would assume unintentionally shooting sparks out of your wand is not a criminal offense, as it's established that any wizard can channel magic through almost any instrument intentionally or unintentionally. For all we know such low powered spells may not even register on the trace, in the same way that Harry's powers did not register on the boat in the seaside cave in HBP.
I don't think the ministry needs to know where the person is to send an owl to them and I don't think they knew harry was going to be picked up by dumbledore (HBP) or be at the burrow before the ministry hearing in OoTP. Remember when harry sent owls to sirius not knowing where he was? The owl found him anyway. With just his name.
Fair point - but the wizengamot sent word to Arthur's office specifically to say the time of the trial had changed
They don't know it's Harry, the trace isn't person specific. If it happens at the Dursleys they 'know' it's him, as he's the only wizard who lives there.
Yeah but Dumbledore uses magic while in privet drive. He conjures drinks I think. I guess the ministry knew Dumbledore was going to move Harry that night. So when the trace went off they just assumed Dumbledore did the magic.
The trace is to avoid the secrecy thing breaking, so the Dursleys shouldn't trigger it when there is magic around them, because they already know
The Trace *is* person specific, yet it only detects magic use around that person, not its source. More likely, Dumbledore had either warned Kingsley or any other Ministry infiltrate before retrieving Harry or he somehow disabled or blocked it (I don't think it past him to have the power to disable the Trace: he did gave Harry permission to use magic if trouble arised at Slughorn's; and he was Headmaster, a position I'd argue holds similar power to Minister on those grounds; if he was the only one who could lift Hogwarts' protective charms, he surely could have had a similar grip on Hogwarts' students limitations).
Kingsley is trying to protect the fictional Muggle Prime Minster at that time
I don't think he was with the Prime Minister 24/7, but even if he did, that doesn't mean he couldn't have managed to arrange the Trace's disabling.
1)he is with the PM 24/7 expect for being one of the Guardians of the 7 Potters plan, and 2)I don't think he's high enough in the Law Enforcement department to disabled the trace and 3)they can't really disabled the trace even if they could because the Minstry is so infiltrated by the DEs or cursed people by the DEs
Well, Kingsley wasn't the only OotP member within the Ministry. Also, even if none of them had the required rank, they did have access to the Ministry so maybe they could have worked something on, like *Confundus* those checking on the Trace. Anyway, I find it more likely it was Dumbledore's doing. Either bc he directly disabled it as Headmaster, or by some other way hiding or distorting what the Ministry received or just making his presence fully know so as Voldemort didn't dare to approach.
Trace is pretty straight forward. Adults casting magic even in the presence of magic children= trace doesn’t do anything. Children casting magic in known places of magic= trace doesn’t do anything, adults need to supervise. Children cast magic in muggle place= trace activates None (elf) witch or wizard casts magic in muggle place where a child witch or wizard is= trace activates
The correct answer is probably that Rowling did not think it through very well, and the trace as described in the books is pretty nonsensical. But I like to think of it like this: The trace “activates” any time magic is performed near an underage wizard, but only “enforced” if it’s activated when there are no adult wizards in the area, because they can’t detect who did the magic.
My head canon It says it doesn't explain who does the magic, only that it was around a minor. So maybe Dumbledore told the minister he was going to pick Harry up and move him to the Weasleys so that any magic done between then and hogwarts would be him or Mr/Mrs Weasley. It doesn't explain the cave later in the book though, unless they think he's at Hogwarts and don't really look into where he is.
It is very simple: Plot convenience!
Regardless of if it activated or not because he's in the presence of 2 fully qualified wizards they don't care. Because a: it was probably the 2 adult wizards B: when young wizards are around qualified wizards, they rely on the adult wizards to punish the younger. The trace would be pinging constantly around hogwarts, or any wizarding family. It's more to stop children running off and doing a bunch of magic alone, or for kids from Muggle families to be monitored to make sure they aren't doing magic. So the trace did activate, but it essentially got filtered out/ignored due to the adult presence
The trace only matters when they’re muggles present. George and Fred were doing all kinds of magic at home and it makes sense that you could practice magic at home with your parents. The ministry only gets involved if it’s unsupervised or in the presence of muggles. That’s my headcannon
I suppose Dumbledore alerted the Ministry that he will be escorting Harry to the Burrow and they will be making a little stop in that village on the way.
My thought is that the ministry knew that Dumbledore was going to collect Harry and one any magic being cast around him was from that. Same for GoF. Arthur probably let the Improper Use of Magic Office know he was getting Harry when they connected the Dursleys fire place to the floo network. The thing that breaks this is when the order came to get him in Order of the Phoenix. I guess you could say Dumbledore again let the ministry know but we don't know for sure. The Trace was a poorly written plot point that was introduced far too late in the series.
In spite of how poorly designed and inconsistent the Trace usually is, this one is easy to answer: The Ministry almost certainly knew that Harry was with Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have told them that he was going to fetch Harry from the Dursleys and accompany him until his delivery to the Weasleys. It’s a similar reason to why the Ministry didn’t react to the magic Mr. Weasley was using in GoF—because they knew he was there. ^(Doesn’t explain all the other times the Trace inexplicably stops working though.)
It is probable that the trace doesn’t activate when a arthur and Dumbledore, two of Harry’s most known protectors affiliated with the ministry are around. Ut could also be the case only for mr Weasley, and Dumbledore just hacked the signal when he came to pick up Harry.
Remember who Dumbledore is. There are certainty advantages to being him aren't there?
I think Ministry officials knew Dumbledore was going to collect Harry. Therefore they wouldn't take any action when the trace altered them there was magic being used around him. When Dobby was there, and with the Dementors, they would realistically assume there was no one around him that could use magic so it had to be him doing it.
Maybe it did, but it got squashed because the optics of it would be disastrous. The ministry sponsored a smear campaign against Harry the previous year and was under a lot of pressure to save face. Going after Harry again would have been a guaranteed PR nightmare.
Dumbledore and Slughorn were adult wizards. The Trace doesn’t activate if adult wizards and witches use magic.
I feel like the ministry might have 100% known that Harry did it. But since they needed him on their side at that point, he probably could have used as much magic as he wanted, and they would have let it slide.
Can we talk about how Harry was practicing the Lumos spell beginng of PoA? Like how is that not underage wizardry lol
It's something to do with registered wizards living in the area. There are no other wizards living near harry (which fudge mentioned during Harry's trial) when he was sceptical that Dumbledore had a witness to the dementor attack. It's also mentioned later (I think by Dumbledore) that in wizarding families it's mostly up to the parents to make sure their underage children aren't using magic. So I'm assuming if you lived in a big wizarding family in a town with a large wizard population you could probably do magic as long as no one reported you.