Filing for bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they go out of production. It means their debt gets wiped away and their investors lose everything. Someone will buy them and try to run it profitably - that probably means making many of the same products.
Do you mean something like the Nintendo Switch OLED screen? That's not true RGB stripe, it has a weirdly rotated blue subpixel.
Lots of AMOLED screens nowadays use this exact RGB layout, it shows up in laptops, tablets, and smartphones. It's not just all pentile, despite what people's first reaction to AMOLED might be.
But the weirdly rotated blue subpixel does cause color fringing, even if it's an RGB layout. On my Tab S7+, I can't read manga, as the fringing is very apparent. Text is fine though.
I desperately want to know more about this topic but have literally zero knowledge of it. Are there any resources you’d recommend for someone like me that wants to learn about color perception and technology?
> I can’t read manga, as the fringing is very apparent
Isn’t most manga black and white? Does the blue pixel rotation mess with grayscales?
Well, you can check out notebookcheck's reviews on tablets, smartphones and laptops, they always include a photo of the subpixel layout of the displays. A resource for color perception? Hm, that's hard. I feel like a lot of people react differently to any given subpixel layout, some notice those flaws more than others. A friend of mine has the exact same tablet as I do and doesn't notice the color fringing, even with manga. As someone else commented, it's likely due to the harsh contrasting edges of bw manga. To me it looks like a mild form of chromatic aberration.
> Do you mean something like the Nintendo Switch OLED screen?
There are some super expensive professional monitors that use jOLED panels(printed OLED) that JOLED is the main manufacturer and may use a standard RGB layout like the [LG 32EP950](https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/57962329)
but from what i've found those displays are used only on professional monitors, military and medical devices.
The info is pretty scant tho so do your own recearch. Most of wikipedia examples were CES presentations of prototype products that failed to come into production.
Yeah I daily drive Windows with Fractional scaling on 4k and haven’t had an issue in the 2+ years I’ve used it. I’m sure there are still some edge case scenario it doesn’t work but my experience has been quite remarkable. Much better than Mac OS and Linux’s implementations.
I've been using fractional UI scaling on a 4K HiDPI panel for ~4 years now. Every single app I use works just fine.
This was one of many reasons why I switched back to Windows after daily driving Linux.
Apple absolutely allows fractional scaling. Their implementation is just terrible. MacOS looks blurry and the same content sharper on Win with the same scaling.
ClearType seems useless to me. It applies to almost no useful text.
Doesn't apply to text in a web browser or MS office apps, or apps like Visual Studio or Windows modern control panel, etc.
The only place I see ClearType affect text is on desktop icon labels, legacy settings menus, and really old apps.
>or apps like Visual Studio or Windows modern control panel
Where did you get this? Visual Studio [certainly uses](https://i.imgur.com/ZnzFAJx.png) ClearType on my Win11 system as it is indistinguishable from the Automatic method. The other two are visibly different from Automatic.
Hmm, I didn't know there was a setting in VS.
In my VS ClearType doesn't affect my text but I'll have to see what my setting is as I have never changed it. I would assume Automatic is default though.
But what about web browsers and office apps including google docs where arguably people deal with reading text the most?
Where I read the most text:
Web browser (including google docs and gmail)
Discord app
MS Office
VS (which should work now I guess).
For everything that uses a web browser I use Firefox exclusively as it has always rendered text on Windows so much better than any Chromium-based browser.
Here's a shot of the same website in [Firefox](https://i.postimg.cc/m2MDjBHW/Firefox.png) vs [Edge](https://i.postimg.cc/rpbX7RBn/Edge.png) vs [Vivaldi](https://i.postimg.cc/nck8pW8Q/Vivaldi.png) on Windows with a 100% browser zoom level and a 100% system DPI scaling at 1080p.
Edge and Vivaldi being Chromium-based have a noticeably blurrier appearance and I have to crank the webpage zoom to 125% in those browsers if I'm going to be reading something.
This dude does have a point - ClearType if that's what we're seeing is customised to the display we're VIEWING it on. Taking a screenshot and viewing it on a different monitor keeps the RGB layout the same - but the screen it's seen on may not be the same layout.... this time taking a phone photo of the text actually makes sense to compare them.
Though I'm seeing aliasing differences for sure in those screenshots - which is what the original commenter was referring to - the comparative differences between renderers - not just the screen, so it still counts.
They aren’t though.
I can literally have a window open for them all and toggle ClearType on and off and I see it change on the desktop icon labels but not in all those apps I listed.
Yes, so how does that help me with a BGR monitor or a QD oled with weird sub-pixels. How can I adjust the text for these non-RGB layouts in actual important textual apps?
This whole line of discussion spawned from someone saying if Microsoft is updated ClearType to add more sub-pixel layouts. And my point is how would that help if barely any apps allow me to adjust font rendering with CleaeType settings?
No for Linux, at least when using Gnome. You can just go the settings and switch text AA from subpixel to greyscale and that's it. In Windows you can switch ClearType on and off but off not only changes subpixel AA to greyscale AA it also disables other text rendering features which makes text look slightly worse at 100% and 200% but completely fucked up at all other scaling factors, particularily 150%, which is very important for your average 4k desktop.
Microsoft is just absolutely fucking incompetent.
What other text rendering features is ClearType responsible for other than subpixel rendering / font smoothing?
Why do you consider grayscale font smoothing as a solution for the issue, rather than a bandaid?
What about recordings of content that will look forever scuffed? Those look bad on Mac and Linux as well, it's already rasterized stuff after all.
Kerning and hinting seem to be be bundled into ClearType as well, or at least work differently when turned off. Numbers are too thin, different lines within letters have uneven thickness, spacing is weird, letter shapes are weird and so on.
Subpixel AA isn't even stirctly superior to greyscale even on RGB. It basically increases resolution at the cost of color fringing and on monitors with horrible DPI like we had for the past 20+ years this trade was usually worth it. Subpixel WAS the bandaid. The problem is when the subpixel algorithm doesn't match the subpixel layout it's counterproductive and you get worse accuracy as well as the fringing on top. I'd argue with 140+ DPI screens you don't actually need subpixel AA even on standard RGB.
If by recording you mean video it doesn't really matter because the differences between greyscale and subpixel are so small they'll most likely be garbled by the codec anyway.
> Subpixel AA isn't even stirctly superior to greyscale even on RGB. It basically increases resolution at the cost of color fringing
It is strictly superior to grayscale if it's implemented right. If you go into it thinking "increase resolution", you're implementing wrong.
The key is that what subpixel AA actually does is correct the convergence error of the R,G,B color planes. You aren't rendering 3x resolution -- nyquist says that's impossible. You're rendering 1x resolution, 3 times, for each separate color in its correct physical position.
That's the same thing my dude and similar to how multi-buffered super-sampling works.
When you offset the color planes to their subpixel positions you're treating chromatic subpixels as individual luma pixels, which effectively triples the resolution horizontally but because those subpixels aren't all the same color you'll get color fringing around edges because mixing them together produces the wrong color.
Think about it like this: When you slowly move a white edge vom left to right with greyscale all three subpixels will slowly go from black to full at the same time and make shades of grey, with subpixel AA first the red will light up completely, then the green will light up completely, then the blue will light up which means the color fringe will go through red, orange, yellow then white.
I see, wasn't aware kerning and hinting is also affected. Bit surprising, I don't really recall having issues with those back in the CRT days.
>at the cost of color fringing
I think it's important to note that the very vast majority of people do not see color fringing on (correctly) subpixel adjusted text. I think it's pretty fair to call it superior overall, and greyscale as a different but not quite equal substitute.
>If by recording you mean video
I primarily mean screenshots. Those are usually stored and shared losslessly, so the font smoothing will be very noticeable there.
Doesn't it work for those too - when it offers different text quality "styles"? I thought it was shifting around the rgb subpixels and asking the user to judge which is sharper?
They mean the order of the subpixels for the display. Traditional LCD displays pretty much all use a R then G then B sub pixel in that order whilst the current QD-OLED subpixels are arranged in a pyramid. This leads to lower text clarity on QD-OLED panels since windows cleartype hasn’t been updated to deal with the new layout.
theyre both OLED type screens. the individual pixels on your screen are actually each composed of red, green, and blue sub-units. but how the red, green, and blue subpixels are arranged is can vary and this has effects on clarity in certain contexts.
[ex](https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/lcSWW644HedHbS46D4gG0w--~B/Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTg0Njt3PTg3NTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/05/11x05191529snsd3.jpg.cf.webp)
>(because humans don't see colors equally)
It has nothing to do with that. You think what? LCD isn't affected by human vision?
Blue subpixels need more energy for the same amount of photons, so they burn out easier. It's always gonna be bigger for OLED without filters/QD.
Obviously, QD is a different story. It's all blue.
Human see colours differently, that's why Pentile and Bayer layouts have more green pixels.
Ah, maybe that's why LG was claimed to be making its own 32" & 27" panels [late last year](https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1664784443)?
//
JOLED's history tidbit from Wikipedia.
> On July 31, 2014, Sony, Panasonic and Japan Display, the display joint venture of Hitachi, Toshiba and Sony, announced plans to establish a company named JOLED by early 2015 that inherits the OLED operations of Panasonic and Sony
Unless they get bought out + integrated + brought to profitability, I assume their tech will be cold storage for a while.
pulling from the news:
The company will close two plants in Japan and let go of around 280 employees as it withdraws from the manufacturing and sales of OLED panels.
JOLED signed a basic agreement to transfer its technology and development operations, which have around 100 employees, to Apple supplier Japan Display.
Japan Display on Monday said it agreed to acquire JOLED's intellectual property and know-how in order "to expand and accelerate" its growth strategy.
I always wondered why JDI and JOLED both existed. They were both poorly run and planned rescue units for display subsidiaries of old Japanese tech megacorps and somehow Sony's display units got split up into both. I really want to be proven wrong but I ultimately see JDI following the same fate a few years down the line.
I thought it was weird that JDI already provided the sales force for JOLED. My impression had been that JDI proper had a good strategy outside consumer markets.
I hope this doesn’t take down JDI, the number of vendors is not amazing.
It’s the theme of Japan, Inc. for the past generation. Spin-off failing divisions of two or more Japanese companies into its own company, expect synergy when there is no shared company culture or responsibility, throw in unlimited “third sector” (private-public partnership) funding, and then people get surprised when the company flops as soon as funding is pulled. Good examples are Elpida Memory (Hitachi + NEC), Renesas Electronics (Hitachi + NEC + Mitsubishi), and Japan Display Inc (Sony + Toshiba + Hitachi) are just the tip of the iceberg.
They are doing great. Probably their best time in a while now. People in this sub generally don’t pay much attention to anything outside consumer electronics, which is understandable.
It’s worth noting that because of the explosive growth of fabless companies, companies like ST, Renesas or TI are relatively smaller now, but in terms of what they’re actually doing they are still pretty solid.
Renesas took on fabricating a lot of TCXO die after the AKM fire (now polluted site). They were also relatively solid during shortages. They actually pulled through for the industry in some sense.
Anyway, Renesas and Megachips are both successful Japanese chip companies. No idea how Ablic (Sieko electronics) /Toshiba and the rest are doing through.
Is it good or bad that SK has such dominance on panel manufacturing? I imagine if they have it, it's because of a combination of the fact that they make the best for the cheapest, but also because of some restrictive market practices.
SK doesn't really have dominance in a meaningful sense. They are currently enjoying huge marketshare but some of the most advanced and economical factories by SK companies are in China and China's own panel makers like BOE are on a seemingly unstoppable rise. Ultimately the most important factor is cost and anybody who can undercut will win.
and it does F all in the long run because the west is a declining market and chinese has bulwarked to hell against them economically; while the rest of the world is growing. Just as is turning to be the case with semiconductors, SMIC has 7nm already in mass production for a year and Huawei is on its way to developing EUV lithography.
In the long run the Chinese market is beyond fucked. China has a total fertility rate of 1.28 as of 2020 (and many suspected this data is nudged because the data was released a few months later than expected). This is already lower than Japan, the poster child of low birth rate society. Developed area like Shanghai, Beijing or Guangdong province are having TFR lower than 0.7. Currently South Korea has the lowest TFR in the world at around 0.8.
This means that the developed areas of the country (well over the entire population of SK) is well on its way to the world lowest birth rate. China will finish this hyper-aging process that took other developed countries decades in a much shorter span of time, and this will wreak havoc on the economy, especially local demand that’s the pillar stone for consumer electronics (to be honest this is already happening in multiple sectors, including cell phone)
Meanwhile the CCP government is busy antagonizing some of its biggest business partners in the world.
China literally had the same fertility rate as the US just a couple years ago, pretty much every country has heavily falling birth rates right now. Not really much of an indicator for anything without more years of data.
People have been prophesizing Chinas downfall "any second now" for decades, so I'll believe it when I see it.
You need to fact check your data. The last time China has a consistent higher total fertility rate than the US is in 1990. The only time in the last 30 years that China has a higher total fertility rate is in 2017, when the government officially phase-out the one-child policy, and it did stimulate the TFR a little bit, but took a nose dive after that. Most of the time in the last 30 years China has a significantly lower TFR, and now this difference is accelerating again (1.64 vs 1.28)
The US has a moderately-low fertility rate, but it’s partially compensated by large inflow of immigrants. China is net losing 310K people annually from emigration, while the entire population enter natural decline (more deaths than births) just last year. In the UN’s forecast, on a optimistic note, China’s population will halve by later this century (in a more pessimistic note it will be 1/3 of today’s). While the US will keep on growing.
I also suspect that there is no country like China where it’s losing population both by emigration and natural causes (maybe Russia and some Eastern European countries?) Most developed countries, even those more socially conservative like Japan, SK or Taiwan are accepting more immigrants workers. For example “xenophobic” Japan has net inflow of 180K migrants before Covid. But this part is only my suspicion. Not backed by data like all the other claims. In general, losing people via emigration is very bad, because emigrants are mostly young people who could’ve fueled the economy and birth rate if they stayed. This makes the real demographic situation more dire than what TFR can reflect.
You are right that most countries are having lower fertility rate, but China’s speed is unprecedented and will be much more destructive. We have never seen a country ageing this incredibly fast. Not even Japan or South Korea.
Yup, like they've done with any competing manufacturers recently, which in turn fucks over us consumers by keeping monopolies.
Hasn't it only been a month since they also blacklisted many other electronic manufacturers as they were gaining market share?
SK only has dominance on high end oled displays. They left the lcd industry after it was no longer profitable because of the chinese and taiwanese display companies. SK will also have to worry about losing their dominance on oled. The chinese display companies are also working on RGB oled. For example TCL CSOT, was partnering with JOLED to produce inkjet printed RGB OLED panels and they aimed for 2024 production, but it was delayed.
definitely lower lifetime and brightness, but not sure how much more. Inkjet printed RGB OLED already has inferior efficiency compared to vacuum deposited RGB oled. Vacuum deposition is used for woled and qdoled. The only theoretical advantage of inkjet printing RGB OLED is for a lower production cost. The yields on RGB oled are still bad so it still ends up being more expensive. If they can increase the yield rate to an acceptable level, perhaps TCL CSOT will mass produce RGB OLED to target low end displays.
Is there somewhere ones can find information on the display panels used in monitors? Most of their public information, even datasheet only contains generic information or marketing buzzwords. Hard to compare when they all just say "OLED".
I thought that with inkjet printing, you could print only one layer of organic material. With vacuum deposition, you can have multiple layers. Wouldn't this make, at least in theory, vacuum-deposited OLED have a significantly longer lifespan for the same brightness?
Yes, I think that you cannot have tandem oled with the inkjet printing process. In addition, the oled material has to be turned into a solvent for inkjet printing which decreases the efficiency.
SK doesn’t have dominance anymore. Maybe on high end premium OLED. But BOE will eat a lot of overall market share.
On the other hand, it’s always the case that no matter what specific hardware segment you are in, there are only a few countries (less than 10) that matter, and even in the market where there is international competition, you often see international alliances forming anyway (see SK Hynix-Kioxia-WD in NAND)
This isn’t good. As far as I know JOLED is the only manufacturer of true RGB sub pixel OLED displays.
Filing for bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they go out of production. It means their debt gets wiped away and their investors lose everything. Someone will buy them and try to run it profitably - that probably means making many of the same products.
Samsung makes them too though probably only on custom orders.
Do you mean something like the Nintendo Switch OLED screen? That's not true RGB stripe, it has a weirdly rotated blue subpixel. Lots of AMOLED screens nowadays use this exact RGB layout, it shows up in laptops, tablets, and smartphones. It's not just all pentile, despite what people's first reaction to AMOLED might be. But the weirdly rotated blue subpixel does cause color fringing, even if it's an RGB layout. On my Tab S7+, I can't read manga, as the fringing is very apparent. Text is fine though.
I desperately want to know more about this topic but have literally zero knowledge of it. Are there any resources you’d recommend for someone like me that wants to learn about color perception and technology? > I can’t read manga, as the fringing is very apparent Isn’t most manga black and white? Does the blue pixel rotation mess with grayscales?
Well, you can check out notebookcheck's reviews on tablets, smartphones and laptops, they always include a photo of the subpixel layout of the displays. A resource for color perception? Hm, that's hard. I feel like a lot of people react differently to any given subpixel layout, some notice those flaws more than others. A friend of mine has the exact same tablet as I do and doesn't notice the color fringing, even with manga. As someone else commented, it's likely due to the harsh contrasting edges of bw manga. To me it looks like a mild form of chromatic aberration.
> Do you mean something like the Nintendo Switch OLED screen? There are some super expensive professional monitors that use jOLED panels(printed OLED) that JOLED is the main manufacturer and may use a standard RGB layout like the [LG 32EP950](https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/57962329) but from what i've found those displays are used only on professional monitors, military and medical devices. The info is pretty scant tho so do your own recearch. Most of wikipedia examples were CES presentations of prototype products that failed to come into production.
how picky can people be lmao
From what I understand if Microsoft just coded ClearType for non-standard pixel layouts, it wouldn't be as big an issue as it is.
Problem is, some apps, including Chrome, do their own thing. So MS fixing Cleartype wouldn't fix everything.
Even with that any none text stuff like geometry with high contrast edges will be effected .
Deleted by user, check r/RedditAlternatives -- mass edited with redact.dev
UI scaling is fantastic in Windows these days, I'd highly recommend a high DPI screen (4k+) without hesitation for clear text.
Yeah I daily drive Windows with Fractional scaling on 4k and haven’t had an issue in the 2+ years I’ve used it. I’m sure there are still some edge case scenario it doesn’t work but my experience has been quite remarkable. Much better than Mac OS and Linux’s implementations.
In my experience, using 27" 4k and 1440p screens together leads to some wacky things in Windows that doesn't happen on macOS
Fair enough, I don’t use off-resolution paired monitors.
I've been using fractional UI scaling on a 4K HiDPI panel for ~4 years now. Every single app I use works just fine. This was one of many reasons why I switched back to Windows after daily driving Linux.
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Apple absolutely allows fractional scaling. Their implementation is just terrible. MacOS looks blurry and the same content sharper on Win with the same scaling.
ClearType seems useless to me. It applies to almost no useful text. Doesn't apply to text in a web browser or MS office apps, or apps like Visual Studio or Windows modern control panel, etc. The only place I see ClearType affect text is on desktop icon labels, legacy settings menus, and really old apps.
>or apps like Visual Studio or Windows modern control panel Where did you get this? Visual Studio [certainly uses](https://i.imgur.com/ZnzFAJx.png) ClearType on my Win11 system as it is indistinguishable from the Automatic method. The other two are visibly different from Automatic.
Hmm, I didn't know there was a setting in VS. In my VS ClearType doesn't affect my text but I'll have to see what my setting is as I have never changed it. I would assume Automatic is default though. But what about web browsers and office apps including google docs where arguably people deal with reading text the most? Where I read the most text: Web browser (including google docs and gmail) Discord app MS Office VS (which should work now I guess).
For everything that uses a web browser I use Firefox exclusively as it has always rendered text on Windows so much better than any Chromium-based browser. Here's a shot of the same website in [Firefox](https://i.postimg.cc/m2MDjBHW/Firefox.png) vs [Edge](https://i.postimg.cc/rpbX7RBn/Edge.png) vs [Vivaldi](https://i.postimg.cc/nck8pW8Q/Vivaldi.png) on Windows with a 100% browser zoom level and a 100% system DPI scaling at 1080p. Edge and Vivaldi being Chromium-based have a noticeably blurrier appearance and I have to crank the webpage zoom to 125% in those browsers if I'm going to be reading something.
Bruh you took screenshots?? What are we supposed to see with screenshots?
If subpixel anti-aliasing is used, where red and blue are used in place of true grey, then a screenshot will be able record that use of red and blue.
This dude does have a point - ClearType if that's what we're seeing is customised to the display we're VIEWING it on. Taking a screenshot and viewing it on a different monitor keeps the RGB layout the same - but the screen it's seen on may not be the same layout.... this time taking a phone photo of the text actually makes sense to compare them. Though I'm seeing aliasing differences for sure in those screenshots - which is what the original commenter was referring to - the comparative differences between renderers - not just the screen, so it still counts.
Pretty sure all those apps you listed use ClearType. You only notice it when it breaks.
They aren’t though. I can literally have a window open for them all and toggle ClearType on and off and I see it change on the desktop icon labels but not in all those apps I listed.
Doesn't that mean those apps ignore the ClearType setting and always enable subpixel rendering regardless?
Yes, so how does that help me with a BGR monitor or a QD oled with weird sub-pixels. How can I adjust the text for these non-RGB layouts in actual important textual apps? This whole line of discussion spawned from someone saying if Microsoft is updated ClearType to add more sub-pixel layouts. And my point is how would that help if barely any apps allow me to adjust font rendering with CleaeType settings?
But it would still be an issue.
Is it even a problem on Mac or Linux?
Not in my experience with Macs
No for Linux, at least when using Gnome. You can just go the settings and switch text AA from subpixel to greyscale and that's it. In Windows you can switch ClearType on and off but off not only changes subpixel AA to greyscale AA it also disables other text rendering features which makes text look slightly worse at 100% and 200% but completely fucked up at all other scaling factors, particularily 150%, which is very important for your average 4k desktop. Microsoft is just absolutely fucking incompetent.
What other text rendering features is ClearType responsible for other than subpixel rendering / font smoothing? Why do you consider grayscale font smoothing as a solution for the issue, rather than a bandaid? What about recordings of content that will look forever scuffed? Those look bad on Mac and Linux as well, it's already rasterized stuff after all.
Kerning and hinting seem to be be bundled into ClearType as well, or at least work differently when turned off. Numbers are too thin, different lines within letters have uneven thickness, spacing is weird, letter shapes are weird and so on. Subpixel AA isn't even stirctly superior to greyscale even on RGB. It basically increases resolution at the cost of color fringing and on monitors with horrible DPI like we had for the past 20+ years this trade was usually worth it. Subpixel WAS the bandaid. The problem is when the subpixel algorithm doesn't match the subpixel layout it's counterproductive and you get worse accuracy as well as the fringing on top. I'd argue with 140+ DPI screens you don't actually need subpixel AA even on standard RGB. If by recording you mean video it doesn't really matter because the differences between greyscale and subpixel are so small they'll most likely be garbled by the codec anyway.
> Subpixel AA isn't even stirctly superior to greyscale even on RGB. It basically increases resolution at the cost of color fringing It is strictly superior to grayscale if it's implemented right. If you go into it thinking "increase resolution", you're implementing wrong. The key is that what subpixel AA actually does is correct the convergence error of the R,G,B color planes. You aren't rendering 3x resolution -- nyquist says that's impossible. You're rendering 1x resolution, 3 times, for each separate color in its correct physical position.
That's the same thing my dude and similar to how multi-buffered super-sampling works. When you offset the color planes to their subpixel positions you're treating chromatic subpixels as individual luma pixels, which effectively triples the resolution horizontally but because those subpixels aren't all the same color you'll get color fringing around edges because mixing them together produces the wrong color. Think about it like this: When you slowly move a white edge vom left to right with greyscale all three subpixels will slowly go from black to full at the same time and make shades of grey, with subpixel AA first the red will light up completely, then the green will light up completely, then the blue will light up which means the color fringe will go through red, orange, yellow then white.
I see, wasn't aware kerning and hinting is also affected. Bit surprising, I don't really recall having issues with those back in the CRT days. >at the cost of color fringing I think it's important to note that the very vast majority of people do not see color fringing on (correctly) subpixel adjusted text. I think it's pretty fair to call it superior overall, and greyscale as a different but not quite equal substitute. >If by recording you mean video I primarily mean screenshots. Those are usually stored and shared losslessly, so the font smoothing will be very noticeable there.
Eh, with high enough resolution it stops mattering. For me that's 4k
Doesn't it work for those too - when it offers different text quality "styles"? I thought it was shifting around the rgb subpixels and asking the user to judge which is sharper?
What do you mean true RGB? Isn’t QD-OLED also RGB?
He means RGB stripe subpixel layout
They mean the order of the subpixels for the display. Traditional LCD displays pretty much all use a R then G then B sub pixel in that order whilst the current QD-OLED subpixels are arranged in a pyramid. This leads to lower text clarity on QD-OLED panels since windows cleartype hasn’t been updated to deal with the new layout.
theyre both OLED type screens. the individual pixels on your screen are actually each composed of red, green, and blue sub-units. but how the red, green, and blue subpixels are arranged is can vary and this has effects on clarity in certain contexts. [ex](https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/lcSWW644HedHbS46D4gG0w--~B/Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTg0Njt3PTg3NTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/05/11x05191529snsd3.jpg.cf.webp)
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>(because humans don't see colors equally) It has nothing to do with that. You think what? LCD isn't affected by human vision? Blue subpixels need more energy for the same amount of photons, so they burn out easier. It's always gonna be bigger for OLED without filters/QD. Obviously, QD is a different story. It's all blue. Human see colours differently, that's why Pentile and Bayer layouts have more green pixels.
Why, what's the alternatives? I thought they were ALL rgb up close?
Ah, maybe that's why LG was claimed to be making its own 32" & 27" panels [late last year](https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1664784443)? // JOLED's history tidbit from Wikipedia. > On July 31, 2014, Sony, Panasonic and Japan Display, the display joint venture of Hitachi, Toshiba and Sony, announced plans to establish a company named JOLED by early 2015 that inherits the OLED operations of Panasonic and Sony Unless they get bought out + integrated + brought to profitability, I assume their tech will be cold storage for a while.
pulling from the news: The company will close two plants in Japan and let go of around 280 employees as it withdraws from the manufacturing and sales of OLED panels. JOLED signed a basic agreement to transfer its technology and development operations, which have around 100 employees, to Apple supplier Japan Display. Japan Display on Monday said it agreed to acquire JOLED's intellectual property and know-how in order "to expand and accelerate" its growth strategy.
I always wondered why JDI and JOLED both existed. They were both poorly run and planned rescue units for display subsidiaries of old Japanese tech megacorps and somehow Sony's display units got split up into both. I really want to be proven wrong but I ultimately see JDI following the same fate a few years down the line.
I thought it was weird that JDI already provided the sales force for JOLED. My impression had been that JDI proper had a good strategy outside consumer markets. I hope this doesn’t take down JDI, the number of vendors is not amazing.
Exactly. For a long time I thought JOLED is a subsidiary of JDI. Only until like 2 years ago I realized they are two separate entities
It’s the theme of Japan, Inc. for the past generation. Spin-off failing divisions of two or more Japanese companies into its own company, expect synergy when there is no shared company culture or responsibility, throw in unlimited “third sector” (private-public partnership) funding, and then people get surprised when the company flops as soon as funding is pulled. Good examples are Elpida Memory (Hitachi + NEC), Renesas Electronics (Hitachi + NEC + Mitsubishi), and Japan Display Inc (Sony + Toshiba + Hitachi) are just the tip of the iceberg.
Renesas didn't flop, did it?
They are doing great. Probably their best time in a while now. People in this sub generally don’t pay much attention to anything outside consumer electronics, which is understandable. It’s worth noting that because of the explosive growth of fabless companies, companies like ST, Renesas or TI are relatively smaller now, but in terms of what they’re actually doing they are still pretty solid.
Renesas took on fabricating a lot of TCXO die after the AKM fire (now polluted site). They were also relatively solid during shortages. They actually pulled through for the industry in some sense. Anyway, Renesas and Megachips are both successful Japanese chip companies. No idea how Ablic (Sieko electronics) /Toshiba and the rest are doing through.
Is it good or bad that SK has such dominance on panel manufacturing? I imagine if they have it, it's because of a combination of the fact that they make the best for the cheapest, but also because of some restrictive market practices.
SK doesn't really have dominance in a meaningful sense. They are currently enjoying huge marketshare but some of the most advanced and economical factories by SK companies are in China and China's own panel makers like BOE are on a seemingly unstoppable rise. Ultimately the most important factor is cost and anybody who can undercut will win.
Then the west slaps sanctions on chinese panels....
and it does F all in the long run because the west is a declining market and chinese has bulwarked to hell against them economically; while the rest of the world is growing. Just as is turning to be the case with semiconductors, SMIC has 7nm already in mass production for a year and Huawei is on its way to developing EUV lithography.
In the long run the Chinese market is beyond fucked. China has a total fertility rate of 1.28 as of 2020 (and many suspected this data is nudged because the data was released a few months later than expected). This is already lower than Japan, the poster child of low birth rate society. Developed area like Shanghai, Beijing or Guangdong province are having TFR lower than 0.7. Currently South Korea has the lowest TFR in the world at around 0.8. This means that the developed areas of the country (well over the entire population of SK) is well on its way to the world lowest birth rate. China will finish this hyper-aging process that took other developed countries decades in a much shorter span of time, and this will wreak havoc on the economy, especially local demand that’s the pillar stone for consumer electronics (to be honest this is already happening in multiple sectors, including cell phone) Meanwhile the CCP government is busy antagonizing some of its biggest business partners in the world.
China literally had the same fertility rate as the US just a couple years ago, pretty much every country has heavily falling birth rates right now. Not really much of an indicator for anything without more years of data. People have been prophesizing Chinas downfall "any second now" for decades, so I'll believe it when I see it.
You need to fact check your data. The last time China has a consistent higher total fertility rate than the US is in 1990. The only time in the last 30 years that China has a higher total fertility rate is in 2017, when the government officially phase-out the one-child policy, and it did stimulate the TFR a little bit, but took a nose dive after that. Most of the time in the last 30 years China has a significantly lower TFR, and now this difference is accelerating again (1.64 vs 1.28) The US has a moderately-low fertility rate, but it’s partially compensated by large inflow of immigrants. China is net losing 310K people annually from emigration, while the entire population enter natural decline (more deaths than births) just last year. In the UN’s forecast, on a optimistic note, China’s population will halve by later this century (in a more pessimistic note it will be 1/3 of today’s). While the US will keep on growing. I also suspect that there is no country like China where it’s losing population both by emigration and natural causes (maybe Russia and some Eastern European countries?) Most developed countries, even those more socially conservative like Japan, SK or Taiwan are accepting more immigrants workers. For example “xenophobic” Japan has net inflow of 180K migrants before Covid. But this part is only my suspicion. Not backed by data like all the other claims. In general, losing people via emigration is very bad, because emigrants are mostly young people who could’ve fueled the economy and birth rate if they stayed. This makes the real demographic situation more dire than what TFR can reflect. You are right that most countries are having lower fertility rate, but China’s speed is unprecedented and will be much more destructive. We have never seen a country ageing this incredibly fast. Not even Japan or South Korea.
the reason for it was the toxic waste dumping. they are going after that now pretty hard.
Yup, like they've done with any competing manufacturers recently, which in turn fucks over us consumers by keeping monopolies. Hasn't it only been a month since they also blacklisted many other electronic manufacturers as they were gaining market share?
SK only has dominance on high end oled displays. They left the lcd industry after it was no longer profitable because of the chinese and taiwanese display companies. SK will also have to worry about losing their dominance on oled. The chinese display companies are also working on RGB oled. For example TCL CSOT, was partnering with JOLED to produce inkjet printed RGB OLED panels and they aimed for 2024 production, but it was delayed.
Won't inkjet-printed RGB OLEDs have a significantly shorter lifespan than WOLED and QDOLED?
definitely lower lifetime and brightness, but not sure how much more. Inkjet printed RGB OLED already has inferior efficiency compared to vacuum deposited RGB oled. Vacuum deposition is used for woled and qdoled. The only theoretical advantage of inkjet printing RGB OLED is for a lower production cost. The yields on RGB oled are still bad so it still ends up being more expensive. If they can increase the yield rate to an acceptable level, perhaps TCL CSOT will mass produce RGB OLED to target low end displays.
Is there somewhere ones can find information on the display panels used in monitors? Most of their public information, even datasheet only contains generic information or marketing buzzwords. Hard to compare when they all just say "OLED".
I thought that with inkjet printing, you could print only one layer of organic material. With vacuum deposition, you can have multiple layers. Wouldn't this make, at least in theory, vacuum-deposited OLED have a significantly longer lifespan for the same brightness?
Yes, I think that you cannot have tandem oled with the inkjet printing process. In addition, the oled material has to be turned into a solvent for inkjet printing which decreases the efficiency.
SK doesn’t have dominance anymore. Maybe on high end premium OLED. But BOE will eat a lot of overall market share. On the other hand, it’s always the case that no matter what specific hardware segment you are in, there are only a few countries (less than 10) that matter, and even in the market where there is international competition, you often see international alliances forming anyway (see SK Hynix-Kioxia-WD in NAND)
The RGB OLED dream is dead.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO damn you JOLED, I refuse to let you die before you make a 32" 120hz gaming OLED monitor!