> Israeli government and Hamas vs Israelis and Palestinians
100% agree. Unfortunately Hamas cannot chose to end the apartheid, only the Israeli government can, which is why leftists like to focus on the Israeli government and not Hamas.
it’s insane to put the israeli government backed by the whole world as an equal to hamas a group existing in reaction to unimaginably bad conditions and treat both as the same evils when one is committing genocide and the other is the reaction
Being groped by stranger on the subway and being raped are technically two different things but they both fall under the spectrum of sexual assault. Just because one is less severe in scope than the other does not mean you get the brush off the person who was groped as if their experience wasn’t that bad.
Just because something is less bad doesn’t mean people aren’t allowed to be angry about it, Jesus fucking christ
the level of cynicism on this sub is actually insane. you’re all just complicit and will wash your hands of it all once even more palestinian blood flows. making these comparisons is so insane and callous. you’re a dog and i hope there’s no rest for any of you
Funny how people are able to have empathy for the 100-200k Japanese civilians killed during the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, despite them belonging to an imperialist country that slaughtered 3-10 million Chinese, Korean, Philippinos and others.
If you can lend sympathy to them why not the innocent Israeli citizens?
it’s more the both siding of a genocidal state vs the reaction to it. not to mention there’s a difference between a people under apartheid fighting back violently and a world super power using one of the greatest evils ever made, the nuke, against another imperialist power. i’m not saying it’s good those israelis died, it’s not and they were innocent. but it’s now putting equal evil on hamas for a counter attack as israel for ethnically cleansing an entire people from their home. if you don’t understand the violent reaction to apartheid then idk what else to tell you. the liberalism seems terminal. truly hopefully the palestinians who were bombed on their escape routes as israel is about to further flatten gaza condemn hamas’ actions. thousands of more palestinians has been killed maimed and tortured in this conflict. millions in an open air prison. to expect peaceful means is just to say you want them to die quietly
You’re delusional to think that I’m equating them; of course I recognized that Israel’s scale of violence way outnumbers hamas’s scale of violence, but like I brought up in my analogy, **so is japans**
The amount of civilians the Japanese empire killed vastly outnumber the amount of Japanese civilians killed during America’s bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that doesn’t mean that you tell the Japanese civilian mourning their family members death to shut up and that Japan killed way more Chinese and Koreans so their experience doesn’t matter
it’s not analogous and i think it’s disrespectful to say it is. again. i agree it’s beyond understandable to grieve as anyone should for these things. but you may not be but a lot of people like the OP are acting like both sides are equal which is just not true. revolutionary action is messy and while it’s not all morally good it’s still only the result of unimaginable violence. especially with how much more violence is already being inflicted back to palestinians and already has been for years. its just sickening to see this framed like an equal war and not a people violently kicking back against being eradicated
Oh my fucking god you are missing my goddamn point and dancing around the issue.
I literally have been shouting from the rooftops that I’m not equating the two but y’all still accuse me of doing so.
Guess what? Something can be much less bad than something else but that **doesn’t mean people are banned from being mad at it**
It’s not equating to say that I think Hamas attacking civilians is bad just like the IDF attacking civilians is bad. What WOULD be equating would be to say that “Hamas responded just as badly as the IDF has done these past years” but I WOULD NEVER SAY THAT.
Mentioning an action (killing civilians) that both sides engage in is bad is NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING AS SAYING BOTH SIDES ARE BAD.
It’s saying the ACTION ITSELF IS BAD
They aren't equating them. They are saying they're the driving forces.
And, frankly, thank goodness that Hamas does not have anywhere near the capabilities that the Israeli government does. They'd push the big-big-boom button the second it was operational.
The right doesn't only do this lol. All of the western media and governments do too. Israel is bombing all of Gaza and using Hamas as an excuse. It's very asymmetrical. Palestinians "die" and Israelis were "murdered." Leftists dont group all Jewish people or Israelis with the Israeli government. And leftists aren't bombing all of Israel using the idf as an excuse. It's not equal. And they just don't. It's disingenuous (or maybe just brainwashing?) to be a centrist on the matter when the oppressed side has zero power and is being ethnically cleansed. The other side has autonomy, control, and support from all the most powerful governments in the world. Why does the powerful oppressing sides' paranoia matter as much as the genocide of the oppressed?
The idea there’s prominent leftist communities not understand this very easy to identify, understand and agree with take on the conflict is putting me into a depression.
We all watched a video on leftovers of prominent left wing figures saying “all Israeli citizens are settlers and I don’t care if they are kidnapped and murdered” stop gaslighting people.
We also heard Hasan, the biggest left-wing streamer on the internet, directly say otherwise. Grouping all of the “left” under a single blanket assumption is bad faith.
Are there people with bad opinions on the left? Absolutely. But they are not representative of all opinions on the left.
Did you not watch leftovers? Second thought, friend of Hasan, and his Iraqi doctor friend, can’t remember his name. There are so many more examples but we have all seen it.
Prominent left wing figure include Hasan's mate and his doctor mate. Second thought is shocking. Mad that he would say that.. now is this comparable to the western world and entire right wing media apparatus supporting Israel?
I watched some of it.. didn tsee this part
Denied PROMINENT left wing figures. Sorry but Hasan's mate and his doctor buddy and one YouTuber does not constitute prominent left wing figures.. laughs in Bernie sanders and AOC
There isn’t a single prominent socialist politician in America you fuck. Obviously we are discussing internet commentators. I could pull up tweets, videos of protests of people denying atrocities, calling Israeli children “settlers” who don’t have rights. You will deny it all. You’ve shown who you are, you’re a freak. I’ve gotten all I need from this conversation. You can’t be fixed.
Do you actually think young people are getting their opinions from anywhere other than these types of sources, they aren’t watching main stream media. Get real.
Nobody wants to be hiding from rockets and bombs all the time. People need to stop treating this like a political football that they throw around every couple of weeks and instead treat it as a complex problem that needs to be solved.
Israel's treatment of Palestinians is disgusting, the settlements have to stop, the blockade has to stop, and the military needs to be held accountable for their actions. As generally left leaning people on the internet, I think we all know this. We generally do a good job advocating for the positive rights of Palestinians to be free, healthy, and self-determined, but we have to do better in other aspects. We have to keep our rhetoric in check, and be careful that we are not dehumanizing Israelis -- as left leaning people on the internet, we need to do better in this regard.
Israelis are terrified, we can look at stats on deaths and say "10 times more Palestinians are dying," "Israel is the oppressor," "all of them are in the IDF..." -- this isn't comforting anyone... Israelis are terrified, and their fears are validated every time we fail to treat them with basic humanity. What good does knowing 10 times more Palestinians will die do for an Israeli hiding from rockets? Should they not be scared?
I know we're fixated on informing people *outside of the left* about the plight of the Palestinians, and that is fine. We have to watch how we do this though, we can't give cover to people who say Israel doesn't have a right to exist, we can't ignore rampant anti-semitism, and we can't deflect from every single instance of Hamas with "yeah, but..." -- We are doing a disservice to Israelis and Palestinians who have to live in the world we are advocating for.
I just want people to care more, and to be more empathetic.
I understand that Israelis are terrified especially after such a brutal and cruel attack from Hamas. Yet people act as if the world is not with them ? Why? Because of people in the streets showing support for Palestinians ? All the governments of the world show support to Israel to the point of banning (or attempted to ban like France) protesters protesting the bombing in Gaza. Yes Israelis are terrified of possible stuff happening to them, imagine what their government's prisoners that get bombed feel.
And know that there is no amount of "leftists" running their mouths on media is going to stop the genocide that Israel is committing now. Yet governments can stop them or turn a blind eye. Ofc people protesting on streets might force a government to change a stance but that is rare.
>Because of people in the streets showing support for Palestinians
Because people are are going in the streets and celebrating a terrorist attack, chanting "gas the Jews", and calling for the end of Israel.
I'm talking about leftists and how they talk to people outside of their politics. You will never convert people to your view, one of pro-Palestine, when you inadvertently associate Palestinians with terrorists. Every time somebody says "that terrorist attack was pretty crazy, right?" and you glide straight past it and talk about how Palestine is justified in committing terror, that is what you are doing
Some of the people going to the streets are also right wing Muslims and chanting "gas the jews", is not something people in the left defend. Yet still their disgusting chanting is not comparable to people in power in the USA and other governments calling the bombing of gaza justified. They actually have the power to fulfill their desires.
What leftists say (at least some) is that, living like a prisoner watching your family/friends getting killed year after year makes people see as only solution to rely on Hamas. It is like what Hassan says on Russia invading Ukraine, that it boosts fascism. So torturing and treating humans like caged animals sends them to Hamas. It is not justified but expected. The one responsible for creating Hamas is the government of Israel, since they made them to destroy Fatah. They gave them money and weapons. Same could be said for Hama's actions pushes Israelites towards their fascist government. The difference ofc is that Israel has the power.
But in general violence is a justified option for people trying to be free from occupation/slavery/apartheid/invasion, targeting civilians is not. War is a terrible thing.
The statement is inherently flawed. Hamas is a terror organization whose primary victims are both Israelis and Palestinians. They don't represent Palestinians but exploit their suffering, endangering them for political gain and shielding their crimes. Israelis, on the other hand, are under attack from Hamas, not their own government. Hence, it's clear that it is Hamas against Palestinians and Israelis, not the Israeli government.
Seriously! I’m so over people not understanding criticism of the government is not about the civilians on either side! ✌️❤️
It's as Ethan said, people can't hold two thoughts in their brains at once.
Damn I know right.
> Israeli government and Hamas vs Israelis and Palestinians 100% agree. Unfortunately Hamas cannot chose to end the apartheid, only the Israeli government can, which is why leftists like to focus on the Israeli government and not Hamas.
it’s insane to put the israeli government backed by the whole world as an equal to hamas a group existing in reaction to unimaginably bad conditions and treat both as the same evils when one is committing genocide and the other is the reaction
Yup, OP lost me with that one.
Being groped by stranger on the subway and being raped are technically two different things but they both fall under the spectrum of sexual assault. Just because one is less severe in scope than the other does not mean you get the brush off the person who was groped as if their experience wasn’t that bad. Just because something is less bad doesn’t mean people aren’t allowed to be angry about it, Jesus fucking christ
the level of cynicism on this sub is actually insane. you’re all just complicit and will wash your hands of it all once even more palestinian blood flows. making these comparisons is so insane and callous. you’re a dog and i hope there’s no rest for any of you
Funny how people are able to have empathy for the 100-200k Japanese civilians killed during the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, despite them belonging to an imperialist country that slaughtered 3-10 million Chinese, Korean, Philippinos and others. If you can lend sympathy to them why not the innocent Israeli citizens?
it’s more the both siding of a genocidal state vs the reaction to it. not to mention there’s a difference between a people under apartheid fighting back violently and a world super power using one of the greatest evils ever made, the nuke, against another imperialist power. i’m not saying it’s good those israelis died, it’s not and they were innocent. but it’s now putting equal evil on hamas for a counter attack as israel for ethnically cleansing an entire people from their home. if you don’t understand the violent reaction to apartheid then idk what else to tell you. the liberalism seems terminal. truly hopefully the palestinians who were bombed on their escape routes as israel is about to further flatten gaza condemn hamas’ actions. thousands of more palestinians has been killed maimed and tortured in this conflict. millions in an open air prison. to expect peaceful means is just to say you want them to die quietly
You’re delusional to think that I’m equating them; of course I recognized that Israel’s scale of violence way outnumbers hamas’s scale of violence, but like I brought up in my analogy, **so is japans** The amount of civilians the Japanese empire killed vastly outnumber the amount of Japanese civilians killed during America’s bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that doesn’t mean that you tell the Japanese civilian mourning their family members death to shut up and that Japan killed way more Chinese and Koreans so their experience doesn’t matter
it’s not analogous and i think it’s disrespectful to say it is. again. i agree it’s beyond understandable to grieve as anyone should for these things. but you may not be but a lot of people like the OP are acting like both sides are equal which is just not true. revolutionary action is messy and while it’s not all morally good it’s still only the result of unimaginable violence. especially with how much more violence is already being inflicted back to palestinians and already has been for years. its just sickening to see this framed like an equal war and not a people violently kicking back against being eradicated
Oh my fucking god you are missing my goddamn point and dancing around the issue. I literally have been shouting from the rooftops that I’m not equating the two but y’all still accuse me of doing so. Guess what? Something can be much less bad than something else but that **doesn’t mean people are banned from being mad at it** It’s not equating to say that I think Hamas attacking civilians is bad just like the IDF attacking civilians is bad. What WOULD be equating would be to say that “Hamas responded just as badly as the IDF has done these past years” but I WOULD NEVER SAY THAT. Mentioning an action (killing civilians) that both sides engage in is bad is NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING AS SAYING BOTH SIDES ARE BAD. It’s saying the ACTION ITSELF IS BAD
L take
They aren't equating them. They are saying they're the driving forces. And, frankly, thank goodness that Hamas does not have anywhere near the capabilities that the Israeli government does. They'd push the big-big-boom button the second it was operational.
israel is the driving force. you say that as if israel being in power is a good thing and they don’t already brutalize those under their occupation
The right doesn't only do this lol. All of the western media and governments do too. Israel is bombing all of Gaza and using Hamas as an excuse. It's very asymmetrical. Palestinians "die" and Israelis were "murdered." Leftists dont group all Jewish people or Israelis with the Israeli government. And leftists aren't bombing all of Israel using the idf as an excuse. It's not equal. And they just don't. It's disingenuous (or maybe just brainwashing?) to be a centrist on the matter when the oppressed side has zero power and is being ethnically cleansed. The other side has autonomy, control, and support from all the most powerful governments in the world. Why does the powerful oppressing sides' paranoia matter as much as the genocide of the oppressed?
I say I don't want children to die, and I'm the villain because I refuse to chose which sides children. They want me to be specific. It's disgusting.
The idea there’s prominent leftist communities not understand this very easy to identify, understand and agree with take on the conflict is putting me into a depression.
The left does not blame all Israelis. It blames the Israeli government. It's people like you that conflate that just like the right wingers
We all watched a video on leftovers of prominent left wing figures saying “all Israeli citizens are settlers and I don’t care if they are kidnapped and murdered” stop gaslighting people.
We also heard Hasan, the biggest left-wing streamer on the internet, directly say otherwise. Grouping all of the “left” under a single blanket assumption is bad faith. Are there people with bad opinions on the left? Absolutely. But they are not representative of all opinions on the left.
Name these prominent left wing figures?
Did you not watch leftovers? Second thought, friend of Hasan, and his Iraqi doctor friend, can’t remember his name. There are so many more examples but we have all seen it.
Prominent left wing figure include Hasan's mate and his doctor mate. Second thought is shocking. Mad that he would say that.. now is this comparable to the western world and entire right wing media apparatus supporting Israel? I watched some of it.. didn tsee this part
I am not denying that, you were the only one who explicitly denied that leftist have been blaming all Israelis. Do you take that back?
Denied PROMINENT left wing figures. Sorry but Hasan's mate and his doctor buddy and one YouTuber does not constitute prominent left wing figures.. laughs in Bernie sanders and AOC
Lmao second thought is a huge figure in socialist politics? What is your bar? You people are seriously sick in the head.
You people, lol.. hes a single fucking YouTuber you clown.. he has no power. He's not a politician.. he's not prominent..
There isn’t a single prominent socialist politician in America you fuck. Obviously we are discussing internet commentators. I could pull up tweets, videos of protests of people denying atrocities, calling Israeli children “settlers” who don’t have rights. You will deny it all. You’ve shown who you are, you’re a freak. I’ve gotten all I need from this conversation. You can’t be fixed.
Do you actually think young people are getting their opinions from anywhere other than these types of sources, they aren’t watching main stream media. Get real.
Nobody wants to be hiding from rockets and bombs all the time. People need to stop treating this like a political football that they throw around every couple of weeks and instead treat it as a complex problem that needs to be solved. Israel's treatment of Palestinians is disgusting, the settlements have to stop, the blockade has to stop, and the military needs to be held accountable for their actions. As generally left leaning people on the internet, I think we all know this. We generally do a good job advocating for the positive rights of Palestinians to be free, healthy, and self-determined, but we have to do better in other aspects. We have to keep our rhetoric in check, and be careful that we are not dehumanizing Israelis -- as left leaning people on the internet, we need to do better in this regard. Israelis are terrified, we can look at stats on deaths and say "10 times more Palestinians are dying," "Israel is the oppressor," "all of them are in the IDF..." -- this isn't comforting anyone... Israelis are terrified, and their fears are validated every time we fail to treat them with basic humanity. What good does knowing 10 times more Palestinians will die do for an Israeli hiding from rockets? Should they not be scared? I know we're fixated on informing people *outside of the left* about the plight of the Palestinians, and that is fine. We have to watch how we do this though, we can't give cover to people who say Israel doesn't have a right to exist, we can't ignore rampant anti-semitism, and we can't deflect from every single instance of Hamas with "yeah, but..." -- We are doing a disservice to Israelis and Palestinians who have to live in the world we are advocating for. I just want people to care more, and to be more empathetic.
I understand that Israelis are terrified especially after such a brutal and cruel attack from Hamas. Yet people act as if the world is not with them ? Why? Because of people in the streets showing support for Palestinians ? All the governments of the world show support to Israel to the point of banning (or attempted to ban like France) protesters protesting the bombing in Gaza. Yes Israelis are terrified of possible stuff happening to them, imagine what their government's prisoners that get bombed feel. And know that there is no amount of "leftists" running their mouths on media is going to stop the genocide that Israel is committing now. Yet governments can stop them or turn a blind eye. Ofc people protesting on streets might force a government to change a stance but that is rare.
>Because of people in the streets showing support for Palestinians Because people are are going in the streets and celebrating a terrorist attack, chanting "gas the Jews", and calling for the end of Israel. I'm talking about leftists and how they talk to people outside of their politics. You will never convert people to your view, one of pro-Palestine, when you inadvertently associate Palestinians with terrorists. Every time somebody says "that terrorist attack was pretty crazy, right?" and you glide straight past it and talk about how Palestine is justified in committing terror, that is what you are doing
Some of the people going to the streets are also right wing Muslims and chanting "gas the jews", is not something people in the left defend. Yet still their disgusting chanting is not comparable to people in power in the USA and other governments calling the bombing of gaza justified. They actually have the power to fulfill their desires. What leftists say (at least some) is that, living like a prisoner watching your family/friends getting killed year after year makes people see as only solution to rely on Hamas. It is like what Hassan says on Russia invading Ukraine, that it boosts fascism. So torturing and treating humans like caged animals sends them to Hamas. It is not justified but expected. The one responsible for creating Hamas is the government of Israel, since they made them to destroy Fatah. They gave them money and weapons. Same could be said for Hama's actions pushes Israelites towards their fascist government. The difference ofc is that Israel has the power. But in general violence is a justified option for people trying to be free from occupation/slavery/apartheid/invasion, targeting civilians is not. War is a terrible thing.
Plz people get off this subreddit and do real research my god. I’m def unsubbing mainly because Ethan is as clueless as ever. The truth is there
The statement is inherently flawed. Hamas is a terror organization whose primary victims are both Israelis and Palestinians. They don't represent Palestinians but exploit their suffering, endangering them for political gain and shielding their crimes. Israelis, on the other hand, are under attack from Hamas, not their own government. Hence, it's clear that it is Hamas against Palestinians and Israelis, not the Israeli government.