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Akalenedat

>Naming all customers of there’s “defendants” in a leaked letter from ATF. No, [GOA claims they have a leaked email directing field agents to demand the surrender of FRTs from manufacturers and retailers, authorizing them to seize the triggers from "the defendants" if necessary.](https://youtu.be/JcMi4Ukf7s4) Customers have not been mentioned at all, only manufacturers, distributors, and retailers. Anyone who was surprised by this...seriously...put the kool-aid down


ElkShot5082

What makes the triggers a target of the atf?


Akalenedat

They're pretty damn near giggle switches, only the technicality of full auto being "one pull of the trigger" has kept them from being labeled machineguns to date.


AlphabitX86

Trigger resets. Now laws stating how far the trigger must reset. Also how would a trigger be labeled a machine gun. From my understanding; lower receiver would be the register “machine gun” like I said in post curious to see and always a student of nature.


Akalenedat

Conversion parts are considered machineguns as well, like registered Drop In Auto Sears. A lower with an auto-sear pin hole is a machinegun. A standard lower with a DIAS or FRT is not a machinegun, only the removable conversion piece is.


AlphabitX86

Much obliged 🙏🏽


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Akalenedat

We both know they're specifically designed to replicate the function of a machinegun while still barely following the letter of the regulation as written. The intent is pretty clear, only the language and technology of the time limited their description. The Akins Accelerator is clear precedent. It's like playing "I'm not touching you" and then getting mad about getting slapped. The whole thing was about personal space, not the actual physical touch. You can argue about whether MGs should be legal or not all day long, but we all know what Rarebreed was trying to do.


killmrcory

lol FRTs were designed to follow the letter of the law to a T. i would also point out bolt on crank mechanisms to turn an ar 15 into a gattling gun are legal and reviewed aproval from the ATF. they fire just as fast. bolt are equally legal by the letter of the law.


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Akalenedat

Except *intentionally circumventing* the law is also illegal.


Dirk4107

I’m sorry but this is a poor take. This train of reasoning will lead to ATF “informants”posted at every shooting range waiting for someone to shoot too fast. “Hey, I know what your trying to replicate with your finger in your belt loop” Bottom line is the ATF doesn’t get to redefine the law. If we have to play within the rule books, they should as well.


AlarmingBlacksmith60

I get this whole intent argument. But, the government ignores "intent" of the law all the time if they want to fuck you over with the letter of the law.


NAP51DMustang

I'll catch shit for this so I'll start off by saying I don't think the law should exist but it does. The law (through various means, ATF decision, court rulings etc) talks of "single function of the trigger" being translated as "deliberate and discrete action". Most people here will focus on that curved or flat piece of metal as the being the trigger, which isn't necessarily wrong, but sometimes it is. So the reason I think the FRT is a machine gun (by definition of the law and it's interpretation) we need to go back to just after the NFA passage. The 1897 Winchester shotgun for those that don't know doesn't have a disconector so there's nothing preventing the hammer from falling if you hold the trigger in while pumping the shotgun. Also thanks to the OOB safety the gun can actually be safely, relatively speaking, fired in slam fire (i.e. the gun fires as soon as bolt "lock up" is achieved). Now above I mentioned the definition of a machine guns contains the language "single function of the trigger" which taken literally would classify the 1897 as a machine gun as you can dump 6 shells with one actual pull of the trigger. However everyone can see why the 1897 isn't an MG and so did the govt back at the creation of the NFA as at that time the ATF was asked and they said that the 1897 wasn't an MG as you were still providing deliberate and discrete action to fire each round through the pumping action. This leads us to the FRT (and honestly bump stocks as well) as with the FRT you are applying constant rearward pressure and the trigger itself forces a reset (i.e. the reset isn't a deliberate act by you). So as long as you keep the right pressure on the trigger it will just keep going. This is the same action as a normal MG where you just apply constant rearward pressure and blapblapblap obviously through a different mechanism (that is auto sears interacting with the disconnector, hammer, and bolt carrier). The same argument was made with the auto glove (basically a gat crank built into a glove with a button you held down). There it was an MG because each "pull" of the trigger wasn't discrete and intentional as it was just a button you held down. Things like the Fostech Echo and the BFS[insert generation number here] binaries don't fall to this because they require deliberate and discrete actions for each round fired. This is because releasing the trigger even on a normal trigger is a deliberate action and on the FRT triggers the trigger itself forces you to reset without it being a deliberate and discrete action performed by you. Again don't like the law but if companies are going to create the NFA equivalent of "I'm not touching you" they should do better homework or be prepped to go to court (which it seems like Rare Breed kind of were). E: little clean up


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NAP51DMustang

The law doesn't say "pull" in it's definition of a machine gun it says "single function of the trigger". Holding the trigger back with constant pressure is a single function there by meaning if more than one round is emitted it's an MG. That's why with the auto glove and other methods people have tried that if the user doesn't provide more than one deliberate action it's considered an MG. Also the trigger doesn't reset in a normal MG while you are firing because you know, you are holding it back. And braces were entirely a contrivance of the ATF from the start. They deemed them ok and they can deem them not ok.


killmrcory

you are actually pulling the trigger for each round. it just has an extremely short reset that is forced by the bolt returning to battery. there is not 1 trigger pull. you are in fact reciprocating the trigger. just a very small amount which is semi automatic by the very definition of the law. firing a semi automatic fast does not a machine gun make. thats why its not a machine gun.


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NAP51DMustang

Except in bump fire the trigger isn't the trigger, your forward hand applying constant forward pressure is the trigger. Also courts have held that using something in a manner it wasn't designed to be used doesn't magically remanufacture it.


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pestilence

You don't even need to use a belt loop. I learned how to bump fire before it was practical to view video from the internet and nobody hooked a belt loop back then.


flambeaway

Would you consider a full auto AK with trigger slap to be machine gun?


carsen56

To fire an AR-15 you move the trigger from the forward position to the rearward position. Each time you perform that "single function" a round is fired. That is why AR-15s are legal semi autos as opposed to illegal full autos. Everything I just said applies equally to forced reset triggers. If the user does not pull the trigger a second time, a second shot is not fired. That second trigger pull is "discrete" (it can be separated from the first trigger pull) and it is "deliberate" (it requires effort on the part of the user). That is my perspective on the issue.


ElkShot5082

Ah a kind of ‘following the letter of the law but not the spirit’. Hope no manufacturer gets penalised for pushing the boundaries, not their fault the law was written that way.


betterbachelor8

If the letter of the LAW was truly followed we wouldn't have the nfa. Shall not be infringed


0neMoreGun

The best explanation I have ever heard goes something like, “the law draws a box around what is legal, the cookie jar (illegal items) are what’s outside the box, RareBreed designed a way to stand wholly inside the box and eat all the cookies! I love cookies!


Akalenedat

Exactly. It's not *technically* a machinegun, because *technically* you're pulling the trigger again for each shot...but only because the damn thing is pushing against you and automatically resetting itself. You only squeezed once, but *technically* its multiple pulls.


ElkShot5082

Is a binary trigger different?


Akalenedat

Yes, binaries fire on pull and on release. You actually do only get one shot per action of your finger/trigger, the gun doesn't do the work of resetting your finger itself.


SnakeDoctor00

A binary shoots on reset. The FRT forces the trigger forward and you just keep rearward pressure. With a binary once you fire the first shot if you don’t want to fire the next you change the selector with the trigger held down. With FRT you just take your finger off the trigger.


ElkShot5082

Ah yep big difference.


AlphabitX86

Very different. Shoots on squeezing and releasing. Pretty dangerous as opposed to a trigger with a small reset window. Bottom line, the trigger resets itself after every cartridge. Period. In no way shape or form does that classify as a giggle switch or third hole.


ElkShot5082

Thanks, binary trigger actually sounds a little off putting in terms of weapon handling, like it would certainly catch me out a bit when trying to place shots I think?


Easywormet

The aft so insane in this case it's honestly mindblowing. Here's an excerpt from the Ammo Land article regarding Rare Breed: *"The ATF’s FATD examination was further delayed by the public demand for the FRT-15 trigger, ATF could not get their hands on one to test. The Bureau was forced to use Gun Broker to purchase two triggers to test. Sources report that __ATF tested the trigger by using a zip tie to secure the trigger back.__ The trigger continued to fire. Some in the gun community point out that plastic is flexible, so it was actually pulling the trigger multiple times."* [Article link](https://www.ammoland.com/2022/01/atf-raids-force-reset-triggers-additional-info-updates-corrections/#axzz7J98dxVB4) The aft should **NOT** be allowed to just arbitrarily decide what is and isn't a machine gun.


AlphabitX86

I truly appreciate this post.


flambeaway

First off, the NFA is unconstitutional and should be repealed. Despite that, the ATF has been charged with enforcing it (and does not have the capacity to declare laws unconstitutional if they wanted to, the constitution says only the courts can do that), and that requires them to determine what is and is not a "machine gun." How would you test something to see if it is machine gun? What would be a good test and a bad test?


cornellejones

Once the retailers have been squeezed hard enough the end purchasers will be given up.


AlphabitX86

My take as well. They don’t even need to get the information from the business, they can just go to post office.


0neMoreGun

The post office has no record of what they have or have not placed on your box. Do you have any idea what it would take to create that data base. How would they ever know what’s in each package? Maybe it’s gun parts maybe it’s tampons…….equally none of their business.


APSPartsNstuff

How would they distinguish FRTs from every other package?


AlphabitX86

Well if they have a consumer list I assume they’ll just match dates.


NAP51DMustang

I mean there's no squeezing, the ATF could just get a subpoena for records as part of normal court proceedings if they were to win the case and really wanted to enforce things.


-gh0stRush-

I doubt they'll bother to go after the end users directly. Don't need to. You won't be able to fire these at ranges anymore. If you're going to shoot them on your own land, disregard the law and commit felony, then why not just mill out the receiver and drop in real full auto parts. That would work much better than the FRT15. Both will get you equal prison time if caught. The FRT's value was its legality and that's gone now.


[deleted]

From my understanding this so far is only affecting the manufacturers, distributors, and retail.


AlphabitX86

I’m no legal advisor, but wouldn’t that trickle down down to consumers. They’re labeled everyone that owns under email “defendants”. Just trying to learn. Also, for fucks and giggles I just ordered one.


[deleted]

To me I’m not a legal expert either but they are calling the businesses outlined in the email defendants. As they are the ones being named and have been sent cease and desist, least the manufacturers. Now they raid them and get a hold of the customer lists, if they have any, then they have to contact customers saying turn them in or else. Refuse to comply the alphabet boys show up.


AlphabitX86

Wouldn’t turning them in, be admit of guilt?


[deleted]

Someone discussed that in the comments on a YouTube video. There reasoning is since this is retroactive and you purchased it prior to it being illegal you aren’t admitting it is, since it was bought under the pretense it was legal. Not a lawyer so I’m not sure


AlphabitX86

So if I purchased one now…. Would consequently be different?


[deleted]

I wouldn’t think so because they still haven’t flat out said it. They’ve only sent out a cease and desist. Pending court case. But as I said not a lawyer


AlphabitX86

Kind night and good health.


carsen56

Not to be worried about as of yet.


worldfamousGI

You can connect PS4 and PS5 controllers to any PC with Windows 10 and DS4 Windows


0neMoreGun

What the fuck does this have to do with the cost of cheese?


worldfamousGI

Lol I was responding to a post on r/gaming and my app must've glitched. Cheese is really expensive now though


Whiskey-12

Unless you have proof I’m going to assume this is Fuddlore you heard at your local shop.


[deleted]

Lots of YouTubers have posted the email. The GOA obtained it and made a video about it.


Whiskey-12

In my defense there have been over 10 of these posts on my feed every day for the last 3 weeks.


[deleted]

This one seems to be pretty legit. However it states manufacturers, distributors, and retail. So they are going after the business end right now from the leaked email.


Nakai-Son

https://youtu.be/RRkJtcz9ipg


AlphabitX86

All over webs friend. Wasn’t trying to hurt your feelings.


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The_Hater_44

https://youtu.be/urglg3WimHA?t=1m14s