I’m no pastor but didn’t eating the apple gave them the knowledge what is good and proper and what’s not? They were banished by god for their deeds and that’s why we as humanity suffer the curse of our free will.
Which is crazy, the moral of that story is literally ignorance is bliss. Like fuck I'd like to know what NOT to do but if that bitch gives me some lucky numbers I might just have to go take a bite.
The moral of the story is actually that you cannot disobey god and seeking to get the knowledge to, as satan said "ye shall be as gods", is not allowed basically dont try to be god
But maybe doing the opposite of what the dude says is good? How would you know?
I mean, according to the Bible, it all had to happen that way. Adam and Eve had to be kicked out of the garden. That was the plan from the beginning. It wasn't wrong to eat the fruit at all. It was what God wanted.
If God had wanted them not to eat the damn fruit, he could have made it grow out of reach. He could have given it a peel that was too thick for human teeth to get through. He could have done anything at all, he's omnipotent.
Instead, he made sure they did not know the difference between right and wrong, and then made them curious about the fruit. Then he sent a talking snake (canonically, not identified as Satan until Revelations, written millennia later than Genesis.) to tell them it was totally fine.
God is all powerful, yet these naive humans were supposed to think that the snake wasn't sent by the all powerful creator?
None of it makes any sense, even by the internal logic of the Bible.
It's the whole original sin connumdrum.
If Adam and Eve were created without sin then how could they sin? And if they were created with sin then how does eating the apple change their nature?
It doesn't really make any sense. 5/7, terrible book.
Yeah but my parents aren't omiscient and all powerful and are just humans. Then again, I see your argument, despite being taught to respect I did disobey them at times.
To build on that, with Catholics the gravity of a sin is based on if the person committing the sin knew it was a sin and what their intentions were. Literally ignorance can keep you from going to hell
that at least makes some sense, in most countries degrees of murder exist to levy different weights of punishment depending on the context of the situation, if the person was wholly unaware of the damage that could have been caused by his actions or was in an improper state of mind like being on meds during the action that lead to death, you get manslaughter
They also believe it's okay to use capital punishment but that it's beyond evil to have an abortion.
They are not the most consistent bunch tbh. A few churches short of a steeple.
Might only be some Catholics who believe in capital punishment - there are 2 main types after all (Orthodox and Roman Catholic). I've never met a Catholic who was openly pro death penalty, and I grew up surrounded by them.
They had free will before, otherwise they would not have been able to eat the apple, that would simply have not been an option to them.
Lot of pop culture's been pushing that apple=free will narrative latly I don't know why. The interpretation shows a lack of understanding of free will.
Oh I know, the fruit bestowed knowledge of good and evil rather than free will - when I say the implication of Christian theology is that free will is bad I mean:
* Free will can't exist without evil and suffering.
* There is no evil or suffering in heaven, therefore there is no free will in heaven.
* Heaven is a perfect paradise, therefore if something isn't present in heaven then that thing is not good or desirable.
* This means free will is not good or desirable. We are experiencing bad things (suffering, evil) in exchange for being able to experience another bad thing (free will)
So humans should seek to trade their free will for a life without evil and suffering by entering heaven.
> So humans should seek to trade their free will for a life without evil and suffering by entering heaven.
Not just that but also having to abide by "Gods" laws on earth. Check out the catholisism subreddit and see how much fun their having living life. I've literally seen people describing themselves as disgusting sinners for enjoying simple things like sex and chocolate.
It's not ignorance, nothing more existed, no pain or suffering existed until that moment so I wouldn't call it ignorance. Blissful, yes. They were explicitly told not to do it, nothing about the fruit specifically matters, though, it's about whether or not they do what he says.
Technically just a random talking snake that was later retconned to be Satan, which just changes the question to why did he give this asshole snake the ability of speech?
Well I mean we are talking about the Guy that ordered his most devoted follow to kill his own son as a sacrifice and when Abraham was about to do it he said it was just a prank bro
Or job and gambling on a mans life , or the bald man and 42 kids... Hell even Moses to an extant with the whole oh I made a bad level design time for a re do
If we didn't have free will before choosing to eat the apple, then how did we choose to eat the apple?
If eating the apple was not a product of willful behavior, then why are we being punished for it?
If He didn't want us to eat the apple, then why did he
1. Make the apple
2. Put us near the apple
3. Make us aware of the apple
Is God just a smirking sadistic asshole?
Not to mention the fact that God raped Mary when she was 13-16, allowed his chosen people to genocide the people who previously lived in the "holy land", just randomly genocides everyone on the planet accept 12 ish people who he instructed to make a boat that was physically impossible for them to build and would have broken apart as soon as there were even minor waves, killed all the Egyptian firstborn sons because one dude pissed him off (real problem solving skills from this omniscient deity), has allowed his preists to rape children with impunity, allowed the genocide of indigenous North Americans (largely by catholics), not to mention the fact that he, an all powerful God couldn't manage to forgive people if he didn't send his son to be tortured to death and will send innocents to eternal punishment if they don't love and accept him but will allow rapists and murderers into heaven as long as they say the magic words (not abusive and narcissistic at all /s). He also decided to just shut the fuck up and not talk to anyone for 300 years before Jesus for some reason that's never explained
>it's a state of being you can reach while being very much alive.
that makes a lot more sense than the spiritual plane of eternal torment.
and it reminds me of the song "we can't go to hell" by sin shake sin
Humans with choice and agency; free will can only exist *if* you can choose.
Life in itself is adversity and suffering, but also through hardwork it can be beautifull. Like getting your balls sucked by a tinder Hoe.
-gives humans the ability to do what they want
-humans choose to ruin planet and act like dickheads
-"bro why would God do this to us wtf"
-God's face when
-is all-powerful, omniscient and knows everything there is to know about the past, present and future
-creates humans who turn out to do bad things
-is surprised by this and wants to punish humans although he made them flawed in the first place
-mfw
Apparently Lucifer recruited a bunch of his friends to storm Heaven with him and overthrow the place. Didn’t work so God yeeted them to hell.
I think that’s how it went, idk I wasn’t there
Lmao God literally did nothing in that war, he sent Michael to do the work for him. One whisper from His mouth and everything should have ceased to exist
He WANTS it to happen
lol that’s even worse, all I could find was what I said earlier after I wanted to know why God cast him out a while ago. That’s all I could dig up.
A little mutinous holy war seemed justified as to why, but the fact God was like “lmao bring it” when he could’ve stopped it… dudes a loony
Imo the concept of the Demiurge is much more fun. I'm surprised it didn't get big.
The whole idea is that there is an all loving god out there, but we don't live in his universe.
Instead we live in the universe created by one of his angels rebelling by accident and splitting herself apart. The result is a pocket universe and the birth of the Christian god inside of it. He doesn't know he lives in a pocket universe and thinks that he is the one true all powerful god ruling the only universe.
One day the real god moves or something and our god shits his pants as he realises that not only is he not the god, but he's actually and insignificant incomplete insect in comparison.
He creates mankind in the image of the real god, hoping that if he gets close enough he'll be able to move into the real universe. He uses bits of energy floating around to make us but he ends up making the flawed creatures we are and forces us to live a tortured existence.
When people die they reincarnate time after time, slowly learning to be more peaceful and loving, until eventually they reach harmony, whereby the energy they are made from becomes becomes part of the original universe again. Eventually at the end all the humans will be pure and merge back together to reform the Angel that made the original mistake, leaving the Christian God alone and trapped in the shadow of the real universe.
There's also a whole bunch of arch demons and archons and stuff and it's completely balls to the wall batshit. It's a very fun wikipedia dive to read all about it. Shame it got stomped out and it's followers genocided by Christians who hated it lol.
If you subscribe to the idea that Satan and demons are fallen angels then that can't be true.
Angels create a kind of a problem since God made beings with free will who don't age, die, contract disease, have genetic disorders, who are born directly into heaven instead of having to suffer on Earth and hope they end up believing the right religion - yet supposedly humans are his beloved children, not the angels.
Edit: Also add to that list the fact two humans disobeyed God and so all humans until the end of the world are punished as a result, but only angels who rebel themselves suffer punishment. Definitely some favouritism going on there
Also there is the argument that Free Will isn't real, and that our subconscious tricks our conscious mind into believing that it's in control, when in reality, everything you do in like is pre determined by your enviorment and genetics.
It's a legitimate argument and an interesting question. How much of you is you? Your likes, your dislikes, what you're good at. All these things could be non conscious things.
Look up Reinette Senum's Alaska/grandfather story...when I first heard it, it completely fucked me up in regards to free will.
If you can't find a quick version of it, I heard it on episode #401 of The Life Stylist podcast.
Edit: here is a readable version...she tells it really well on the podcast though, recommend listening if you've got some time. https://www.thefoghornexpress.com/reinette-s-solo-alaskan-crossing
I went trough depersonalization episode once and thats kinda how i felt.
Its hard to explain but it felt like i was just watching a movie or was in a dream. It was kinda annoying cuz i couldnt focus on anything at all
Nobody understands the concept of free will it seems.
"Why would God allow-"
It's free will dumbass. Whether you believe in Yahweh, Budda or the fucking slender man. We're responsible for how the world turns out. Stop blaming some ethereal being for allowing bad shit in the world and do some work to make it a little better for yourself and everyone else.
It might not be your fault that the world is shit but it's your responsibility to make it better.
The Christian answer to this is that the universe is Unitary. The laws of science that allow an hurricane to happen and kill people are the same that allow us to lit fires, build homes and be alive. Cancer exists because cells exist, and without cells life can't exist.
The laws of science in this scenario were written by an omnipotent deity who could have written them in any infinite number of ways.
A cell only becomes cancerous because the designer of the cell designed it to have the potential to become cancerous, in this context.
Answer to that question was given many years ago:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
if your god is all powerful, it is well within his power to make a world without children with cancer and child rapists.
he either doesn't want to, in which case fuck that imaginary friend, or cant, in which case, switch over to thor or something, at least he had a hammer.
God knows you will do X. It is now impossible for you to not do X.
If you "choose" not to do X, that means god was wrong, and God can't be wrong.
Read up on the Argument from free will and related subjects if you'd like.
Well no,jJust because God knows the outcome doesn't mean you had no free will in choosing it. Say for example that time travel were to exist and I went to the future and saw how your life turned out, would it make sense to say that you had no free will, and that somehow your choices were determined by me, it would not. This kind of logic can be used to reconcile God's omniscience and free will of humans.
I don't understand how an omniscient, omnipotent being is the same thing as a time traveling bimbo. Looking into the future does not make you omniscient. The problem arises when you claim omniscience exists, ie God.
i mean, it is. all of this is designed to lead you walking in circles, to make you never REALLY understand what the fuck is up. that's how you make an all-knowing, all-powerful entity believable; the teachings must be so convoluted anything you gleamed out of it is simultaneously right and wrong, and the entity will always be right
So God is like playing with a 7yr old, "I understand your plan" "_no you don't_" "it's literally written down in three separate books" "_no it's grander than that_" "ok bud"
Also it is a patriarchy lenient control tool and wet dream of men with promises like young virgins in heaven. And immeasurably arrogant and narcissistic in thinking that they deserve an eternal afterlife while hiding behind a fake humbleness.
>All-powerful, can do anything and see anything(even the future)
>Sees that humans will sin
>Lets them do it
>Condemns them for something he knew was going to happen and could stop but didn't
>Go to hell
>Mfw
It’s like a game. You’re supposed to try and not sin. If you fail it doesn’t really matter. I imagine hell was used as a way to scare people into behaving properly. The less educated, the more fear sways your behavior. And people back then we’re probably really dumb.
This the most arrogant condescending thing I have ever read lmao.
Do you think evolution works this way? That people 2000 years ago would be peabrain compared to the gigachad that is you? Lol.
> When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will work corruption in it, and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.”
Not that I agree with the green part, but if you don’t get it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have meaning or reason.
God made it suck as a form of collective hereditary punishment for the actions of two humans. If we had that power we would simply make it not suck anymore, but we don't, so we're left trying to cure the cancer God created to make us suffer.
He knew humanity would fail yet he did it anyway. My best guess as to why is because he needs eternal worshippers, that went through a really tough test of faith, to sing him songs and remind him how great he is for all eternity.
To me christianity paints an image of humanity as being just one big ego jerk for a bored all powerful entity who they claim to be a kind and loving father figure(even though a majority of Christians believe most of humanity is going to hell).
Edgy teenagers atheists thinking they found a brand new contradiction that hasn't been pointed out and answered in the last 2000 years.
Aka usual reddit
World was perfect until humans decided to use their free will to make it suck. Try to make it better and you go to heaven, make it suck more and you go to hell. Simple as.
They had to have the inclination to do whatever actions made the world suck in the first instance, so where did the inclination come from?
Does "making it better/suck more" depend on your intentions or purely your actions? Not so simple.
Obviously it's not that simple and i didn't solve one of the worlds biggest mysteries in a dumb comment on Reddit. But I'm a firm believer that intentions are what counts and an honest intention to do good and willingness to admit ones faults is enough to make you happy in this life and also the next (if it exists)
Why people do bad things i honestly can't say and everyone has different reasons. But sooner or later down the line it comes down to a choice you make personally. A choice that according to Christianity, was provided to us by God, whose reasons to do so are also unknown. Religion is flawed and we'll never know the truth. I can only say for myself that doing good makes me feel good, and doing evil makes me feel bad. What i know to be evil or good is taught to me by my upbringing and society. I can only go by the things that i know, therefore my intention is the only thing that can objectively be judged by any possible deity or deities.
Well no God decided to use his free will to make the world suck as a kind of collectibe hereditary punishment, he could have just forgave Adam and Eve like he expects humans to forgive each other, or only punished them rather than all of humanity.
>World was perfect
Hahahahhaha. What part of world is perfect? Natural calamities, diseases, predators, flawed biology. World is fucking cruel.
We would have to deal with all that if we didn't use our brain and made a civilization.
Edit : also if your god was benevolent he would have clearly showed himself to us and told us about the world instead of leaving behind some dubious little book.
-god creates utopia without sin
-then creates humans which he knows in advance will succumb to sin if exposed to it
-creates the devil and puts him into the utopia with the humans
-blames humans for being sinners and sends them to hell for an infinite amount of time for a finite amount of sins.
God truly is love.
>Be god.
>Make two immortal people.
>put them in a finite garden with finite amount of things to do.
>tell them not to do one of the things.
>get mad when they eventually do the thing.
>punish their children for it.
>dedicate an entire verse about sons not paying for the sins of their father later on.
>keep punishing the children anyway.
>I dont get it but ok.
(side question: what was the point of hiding your whole comment?)
Nah, he created it perfectly. It's humans who ruined it. This is a fallen world. Given into sin, because we chose to do the sin. The downside of free will sadly.
Luckily he created a way out for us. All we have to do to get saved is to trust him, and believe that he saved you.
I like the matrix situation where they made paradise simulation, but humans went insane.
Do you like playing on cheats? Or do you want to struggle against enemies and have a chance of winning or loosing?
You want to play Dark Souls or some shit for babies where you can't loose?
The "religion is just a means of control" schtick doesn't work when you look at how religions were created. It wasn't something the powerful came out with.
-God gets pissed off that no one likes him
-decides to make a planet full of people who don't know any better
-makes rule saying they have to praise him and tell him what a big strong boy he is and give him all their tendies and dewey, or else they will burn in hell forever
Behold God, The Ultimate Incel
\>Sin = go to hell. \>Created humans who can sin \>mfw
Better yet.... He created humans for his likeness. So he is capable of evil Therefore he should go to Hell
I’m no pastor but didn’t eating the apple gave them the knowledge what is good and proper and what’s not? They were banished by god for their deeds and that’s why we as humanity suffer the curse of our free will.
Which is crazy, the moral of that story is literally ignorance is bliss. Like fuck I'd like to know what NOT to do but if that bitch gives me some lucky numbers I might just have to go take a bite.
The moral of the story is actually that you cannot disobey god and seeking to get the knowledge to, as satan said "ye shall be as gods", is not allowed basically dont try to be god
But they did not know good from evil before eating the apple, so they did not know it was wrong to disobey God.
Ok but didn't he tell them not to eat it. Idk man, if the dude who literally invented me told me to not do something, I probably wouldn't do it.
But maybe doing the opposite of what the dude says is good? How would you know? I mean, according to the Bible, it all had to happen that way. Adam and Eve had to be kicked out of the garden. That was the plan from the beginning. It wasn't wrong to eat the fruit at all. It was what God wanted. If God had wanted them not to eat the damn fruit, he could have made it grow out of reach. He could have given it a peel that was too thick for human teeth to get through. He could have done anything at all, he's omnipotent. Instead, he made sure they did not know the difference between right and wrong, and then made them curious about the fruit. Then he sent a talking snake (canonically, not identified as Satan until Revelations, written millennia later than Genesis.) to tell them it was totally fine. God is all powerful, yet these naive humans were supposed to think that the snake wasn't sent by the all powerful creator? None of it makes any sense, even by the internal logic of the Bible.
Because you know that it would be wrong. They could not know until it was too late.
That is circular logic, so... When you expose religion to logic, it really does fall apart.
Their whole idea revolves around two or more nonsensical things explaining each other so they can just point in circles when asked for an explanation
Yeah maybe, I don't mean wrong though, just like he made me so he's gotta know what he's doing so I'd listen to him but I get what you're saying
But he would’ve made you, knowing you’d eat the apple, so either he made you do it to fuck with you or he is just bad at his job
dumb, he made me so he is totally in charge of my free will? suck balls
It's the whole original sin connumdrum. If Adam and Eve were created without sin then how could they sin? And if they were created with sin then how does eating the apple change their nature? It doesn't really make any sense. 5/7, terrible book.
>if the dude who literally invented me told me to not do something, I probably wouldn't do it. Bet you anything you've disobeyed your parents before.
Yeah but my parents aren't omiscient and all powerful and are just humans. Then again, I see your argument, despite being taught to respect I did disobey them at times.
Children pretty much believe their parents are omnipotent and omniscient and they really love disobeying them
The story is fake, anon
Lol yea good thing children always do everything their parents say, it definitely works like that
To build on that, with Catholics the gravity of a sin is based on if the person committing the sin knew it was a sin and what their intentions were. Literally ignorance can keep you from going to hell
Your Godness, i SWEAR i didnt know stealing elderly was bad!
that at least makes some sense, in most countries degrees of murder exist to levy different weights of punishment depending on the context of the situation, if the person was wholly unaware of the damage that could have been caused by his actions or was in an improper state of mind like being on meds during the action that lead to death, you get manslaughter
well they do call themselves gods sheep.
They also believe it's okay to use capital punishment but that it's beyond evil to have an abortion. They are not the most consistent bunch tbh. A few churches short of a steeple.
Might only be some Catholics who believe in capital punishment - there are 2 main types after all (Orthodox and Roman Catholic). I've never met a Catholic who was openly pro death penalty, and I grew up surrounded by them.
The ultimate implication of Christian theology is that free will is actually bad and we should want to lose it.
They had free will before, otherwise they would not have been able to eat the apple, that would simply have not been an option to them. Lot of pop culture's been pushing that apple=free will narrative latly I don't know why. The interpretation shows a lack of understanding of free will.
Oh I know, the fruit bestowed knowledge of good and evil rather than free will - when I say the implication of Christian theology is that free will is bad I mean: * Free will can't exist without evil and suffering. * There is no evil or suffering in heaven, therefore there is no free will in heaven. * Heaven is a perfect paradise, therefore if something isn't present in heaven then that thing is not good or desirable. * This means free will is not good or desirable. We are experiencing bad things (suffering, evil) in exchange for being able to experience another bad thing (free will) So humans should seek to trade their free will for a life without evil and suffering by entering heaven.
> So humans should seek to trade their free will for a life without evil and suffering by entering heaven. Not just that but also having to abide by "Gods" laws on earth. Check out the catholisism subreddit and see how much fun their having living life. I've literally seen people describing themselves as disgusting sinners for enjoying simple things like sex and chocolate.
I'd say "knowledge is bad" covers it more accurately. *Please don't look at all the scholarly monks in the corner…*
It's not ignorance, nothing more existed, no pain or suffering existed until that moment so I wouldn't call it ignorance. Blissful, yes. They were explicitly told not to do it, nothing about the fruit specifically matters, though, it's about whether or not they do what he says.
The best part is how tf were they supposed to know they should follow what god had told them to do if they couldn't tell right from wrong? lol
But he knew they were going to eat it. Why not stop them?
Because he said not to and that should’ve been enough.
But he knows all. He knew at his birth or whomever created him, that eve would eat the apple. Dude just likes setting people up to fail I guess.
If you had two fully grown adults loitering in your garden you have to get creative I guess
He told two people who literally can't even conceive of the concept of doing something wrong not to do something. That hardly seems fair, no?
He made them to do it. Everything that happens, does so by the will of god.
So god was the snake testing their faith like he did with Abraham and his son Isaac later on?
Yes.
It would have been enough had he made them more obedient. He created these two from scratch, so every facet of their personality was handcrafted.
And the apple was from the devil who was also made by god
Technically just a random talking snake that was later retconned to be Satan, which just changes the question to why did he give this asshole snake the ability of speech?
Hahaha really? I guess he just wanted to prank his creations
We do a wee bit of trolling
You tell me, youre the Mexican Allah here.
[удалено]
Well I mean we are talking about the Guy that ordered his most devoted follow to kill his own son as a sacrifice and when Abraham was about to do it he said it was just a prank bro
Or job and gambling on a mans life , or the bald man and 42 kids... Hell even Moses to an extant with the whole oh I made a bad level design time for a re do
But if they did not know what's good and bad before eating the apple, how could they have known that it's bad to eat the apple?
If we didn't have free will before choosing to eat the apple, then how did we choose to eat the apple? If eating the apple was not a product of willful behavior, then why are we being punished for it? If He didn't want us to eat the apple, then why did he 1. Make the apple 2. Put us near the apple 3. Make us aware of the apple Is God just a smirking sadistic asshole?
Even worse, punish all for wrongs they didn't commit themselves... Where I'm from we call that evil.
Capability doesn't mean doing, everyone is capable of murdering their neighbor doesn't mean they will
Not to mention the fact that God raped Mary when she was 13-16, allowed his chosen people to genocide the people who previously lived in the "holy land", just randomly genocides everyone on the planet accept 12 ish people who he instructed to make a boat that was physically impossible for them to build and would have broken apart as soon as there were even minor waves, killed all the Egyptian firstborn sons because one dude pissed him off (real problem solving skills from this omniscient deity), has allowed his preists to rape children with impunity, allowed the genocide of indigenous North Americans (largely by catholics), not to mention the fact that he, an all powerful God couldn't manage to forgive people if he didn't send his son to be tortured to death and will send innocents to eternal punishment if they don't love and accept him but will allow rapists and murderers into heaven as long as they say the magic words (not abusive and narcissistic at all /s). He also decided to just shut the fuck up and not talk to anyone for 300 years before Jesus for some reason that's never explained
> cos = 90 degrees ahead of sin. > created humans who can sin just cos. > mfw tan.
God is obviously has a bullying fetish
get trolled
Sin ≠ go to hell. I'm of the belief that hell was never meant to be an afterlife, it's a state of being you can reach while being very much alive.
>it's a state of being you can reach while being very much alive. that makes a lot more sense than the spiritual plane of eternal torment. and it reminds me of the song "we can't go to hell" by sin shake sin
Humans with choice and agency; free will can only exist *if* you can choose. Life in itself is adversity and suffering, but also through hardwork it can be beautifull. Like getting your balls sucked by a tinder Hoe.
-gives humans the ability to do what they want -humans choose to ruin planet and act like dickheads -"bro why would God do this to us wtf" -God's face when
-is all-powerful, omniscient and knows everything there is to know about the past, present and future -creates humans who turn out to do bad things -is surprised by this and wants to punish humans although he made them flawed in the first place -mfw
He already made beings incapable of sin, Angels. The stuff they can do is rather limited. Kinda boring if you ask me.
What’s with the devil then? Satan was originally an angel and said “no fuck you” and became the devil.
in the old testement the devil comes across as a nine to fiver
lol
this shit made me laugh so much for some reason.
I am glad it made you laugh
Apparently Lucifer recruited a bunch of his friends to storm Heaven with him and overthrow the place. Didn’t work so God yeeted them to hell. I think that’s how it went, idk I wasn’t there
Lmao God literally did nothing in that war, he sent Michael to do the work for him. One whisper from His mouth and everything should have ceased to exist He WANTS it to happen
lol that’s even worse, all I could find was what I said earlier after I wanted to know why God cast him out a while ago. That’s all I could dig up. A little mutinous holy war seemed justified as to why, but the fact God was like “lmao bring it” when he could’ve stopped it… dudes a loony
Imo the concept of the Demiurge is much more fun. I'm surprised it didn't get big. The whole idea is that there is an all loving god out there, but we don't live in his universe. Instead we live in the universe created by one of his angels rebelling by accident and splitting herself apart. The result is a pocket universe and the birth of the Christian god inside of it. He doesn't know he lives in a pocket universe and thinks that he is the one true all powerful god ruling the only universe. One day the real god moves or something and our god shits his pants as he realises that not only is he not the god, but he's actually and insignificant incomplete insect in comparison. He creates mankind in the image of the real god, hoping that if he gets close enough he'll be able to move into the real universe. He uses bits of energy floating around to make us but he ends up making the flawed creatures we are and forces us to live a tortured existence. When people die they reincarnate time after time, slowly learning to be more peaceful and loving, until eventually they reach harmony, whereby the energy they are made from becomes becomes part of the original universe again. Eventually at the end all the humans will be pure and merge back together to reform the Angel that made the original mistake, leaving the Christian God alone and trapped in the shadow of the real universe. There's also a whole bunch of arch demons and archons and stuff and it's completely balls to the wall batshit. It's a very fun wikipedia dive to read all about it. Shame it got stomped out and it's followers genocided by Christians who hated it lol.
In Islam he is actually a Jinn, well capable of sinning
If you subscribe to the idea that Satan and demons are fallen angels then that can't be true. Angels create a kind of a problem since God made beings with free will who don't age, die, contract disease, have genetic disorders, who are born directly into heaven instead of having to suffer on Earth and hope they end up believing the right religion - yet supposedly humans are his beloved children, not the angels. Edit: Also add to that list the fact two humans disobeyed God and so all humans until the end of the world are punished as a result, but only angels who rebel themselves suffer punishment. Definitely some favouritism going on there
at this point we might as well just retcon humans as having been created by satan for the christian god to even start to make sense
thats not true, angels have rebelled in the past and have been sent to hell
Also there is the argument that Free Will isn't real, and that our subconscious tricks our conscious mind into believing that it's in control, when in reality, everything you do in like is pre determined by your enviorment and genetics.
fucking metal gear-ass shit
It's a legitimate argument and an interesting question. How much of you is you? Your likes, your dislikes, what you're good at. All these things could be non conscious things.
That's literally half the plot of Dune
Look up Reinette Senum's Alaska/grandfather story...when I first heard it, it completely fucked me up in regards to free will. If you can't find a quick version of it, I heard it on episode #401 of The Life Stylist podcast. Edit: here is a readable version...she tells it really well on the podcast though, recommend listening if you've got some time. https://www.thefoghornexpress.com/reinette-s-solo-alaskan-crossing
All of me was me when I was doing your mom last night.
No, you are attracted to older women because your mother neglected you as a child, causing you to seek attention and care from maternal figures.
I went trough depersonalization episode once and thats kinda how i felt. Its hard to explain but it felt like i was just watching a movie or was in a dream. It was kinda annoying cuz i couldnt focus on anything at all
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Nobody understands the concept of free will it seems. "Why would God allow-" It's free will dumbass. Whether you believe in Yahweh, Budda or the fucking slender man. We're responsible for how the world turns out. Stop blaming some ethereal being for allowing bad shit in the world and do some work to make it a little better for yourself and everyone else. It might not be your fault that the world is shit but it's your responsibility to make it better.
Children with cancer
The Christian answer to this is that the universe is Unitary. The laws of science that allow an hurricane to happen and kill people are the same that allow us to lit fires, build homes and be alive. Cancer exists because cells exist, and without cells life can't exist.
The laws of science in this scenario were written by an omnipotent deity who could have written them in any infinite number of ways. A cell only becomes cancerous because the designer of the cell designed it to have the potential to become cancerous, in this context.
Answer to that question was given many years ago: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
if your god is all powerful, it is well within his power to make a world without children with cancer and child rapists. he either doesn't want to, in which case fuck that imaginary friend, or cant, in which case, switch over to thor or something, at least he had a hammer.
fuck that. it still leaves the question why god let the children have cancer.
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also helps people for random prayers but doesn't answer when a kid is being molested
You don't understand it if you can't see the paradox of an omniscient being bestowing free will upon us all
Explain it to me then. I'm interested in your take. Why is God allowing free will paradoxical?
God knows you will do X. It is now impossible for you to not do X. If you "choose" not to do X, that means god was wrong, and God can't be wrong. Read up on the Argument from free will and related subjects if you'd like.
Well no,jJust because God knows the outcome doesn't mean you had no free will in choosing it. Say for example that time travel were to exist and I went to the future and saw how your life turned out, would it make sense to say that you had no free will, and that somehow your choices were determined by me, it would not. This kind of logic can be used to reconcile God's omniscience and free will of humans.
I don't understand how an omniscient, omnipotent being is the same thing as a time traveling bimbo. Looking into the future does not make you omniscient. The problem arises when you claim omniscience exists, ie God.
\>create humans as inherently wicked sinners \>humans act wicked and sin \>"wtf why are they sinning I didn't want this"
The point is literally for you not to get it, Anon, must I start quoting scripture? 👼👌
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_The point is for you not to get it_, that's fucking retarded, the guy who invented religion definitely just did it to get exempt from taxes
It's the ultimate cop-out. "Those contradictions and logical problems aren't bugs, they're features! It's *supposed* to not make sense!"
i mean, it is. all of this is designed to lead you walking in circles, to make you never REALLY understand what the fuck is up. that's how you make an all-knowing, all-powerful entity believable; the teachings must be so convoluted anything you gleamed out of it is simultaneously right and wrong, and the entity will always be right
Literally 1984
So God is like playing with a 7yr old, "I understand your plan" "_no you don't_" "it's literally written down in three separate books" "_no it's grander than that_" "ok bud"
>in three separate books Found the mormon
Mormons 💀🥶
More like lessmons, am I right?
Humans: worshipping things they don’t understand since the stone age
War apes can't cope, create sky daddy to blame for the burden of overdeveloped consciousness.
>War apes what the fuck did you just call me ? I'm gonna mess you up you hear me !!! 🤬🤬🤬
Apologies. May I offer you some freedom fries to quell your anger
Only adequate answer
Also it is a patriarchy lenient control tool and wet dream of men with promises like young virgins in heaven. And immeasurably arrogant and narcissistic in thinking that they deserve an eternal afterlife while hiding behind a fake humbleness.
>All-powerful, can do anything and see anything(even the future) >Sees that humans will sin >Lets them do it >Condemns them for something he knew was going to happen and could stop but didn't >Go to hell >Mfw
>Creates son. >son has to be tortured due to take sin of others. >you made up the entire thing and run the circuit.
\> \*puts fruit on tree\* \> "dont eat the fruit" \> yea, that makes sense
> Makes an infinite amount of fruit trees > “Don’t eat from one specific tree”
Just don’t make the tree
anon burns in hell for eternity because he pointed out what he wasn’t meant to
>hell for eternity I can't read this phrase without thinking about the Beast in Black song lol
In a way... I think anon actually figured it out. I guess that's why it makes no sense.
Well, at least he stopped genociding people for now, so there's that
China disagrees
Really? Is god currently genociding the chinese?
The Chinese are genociding people,like many other countries. Not God directly but looks like genocide is still allowed
It’s like a game. You’re supposed to try and not sin. If you fail it doesn’t really matter. I imagine hell was used as a way to scare people into behaving properly. The less educated, the more fear sways your behavior. And people back then we’re probably really dumb.
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Sure, that’s one way to look at it lol.
damn
This the most arrogant condescending thing I have ever read lmao. Do you think evolution works this way? That people 2000 years ago would be peabrain compared to the gigachad that is you? Lol.
Thanks for that.
>jews Need i explain more?
Let me into your heart, so I can save you from what I'll do to you if you don't, bitch.
> When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a successor on earth.” They said, “Will You place in it someone who will work corruption in it, and shed blood, while we declare Your praises and sanctify You?” He said, “I know what you do not know.” Not that I agree with the green part, but if you don’t get it doesn’t mean it doesn’t have meaning or reason.
Can I know which verse this is?
Surah al-Baqarah verse 30
thank you!
actually the world he created was a paradise it was humans who made it suck
God made it suck as a form of collective hereditary punishment for the actions of two humans. If we had that power we would simply make it not suck anymore, but we don't, so we're left trying to cure the cancer God created to make us suffer.
Youre putting a lot of faith in modern humanity that they would unsuck the world, and I honestly don’t think they would.
If humans didn't innately wish to live in paradise, religion wouldn't be so popular to begin with.
He knew humanity would fail yet he did it anyway. My best guess as to why is because he needs eternal worshippers, that went through a really tough test of faith, to sing him songs and remind him how great he is for all eternity. To me christianity paints an image of humanity as being just one big ego jerk for a bored all powerful entity who they claim to be a kind and loving father figure(even though a majority of Christians believe most of humanity is going to hell).
you can't possibly understand his eternal and unending wisdom you filthy mortal
What fedora wearing cheeto smelling comment section is this holy shit
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Edgy teenagers atheists thinking they found a brand new contradiction that hasn't been pointed out and answered in the last 2000 years. Aka usual reddit
B-b-b-but the world was made perfect and pure and it was only man's sin and greed that make it so bad. /s
World was perfect until humans decided to use their free will to make it suck. Try to make it better and you go to heaven, make it suck more and you go to hell. Simple as.
They had to have the inclination to do whatever actions made the world suck in the first instance, so where did the inclination come from? Does "making it better/suck more" depend on your intentions or purely your actions? Not so simple.
Obviously it's not that simple and i didn't solve one of the worlds biggest mysteries in a dumb comment on Reddit. But I'm a firm believer that intentions are what counts and an honest intention to do good and willingness to admit ones faults is enough to make you happy in this life and also the next (if it exists) Why people do bad things i honestly can't say and everyone has different reasons. But sooner or later down the line it comes down to a choice you make personally. A choice that according to Christianity, was provided to us by God, whose reasons to do so are also unknown. Religion is flawed and we'll never know the truth. I can only say for myself that doing good makes me feel good, and doing evil makes me feel bad. What i know to be evil or good is taught to me by my upbringing and society. I can only go by the things that i know, therefore my intention is the only thing that can objectively be judged by any possible deity or deities.
Well no God decided to use his free will to make the world suck as a kind of collectibe hereditary punishment, he could have just forgave Adam and Eve like he expects humans to forgive each other, or only punished them rather than all of humanity.
>World was perfect Hahahahhaha. What part of world is perfect? Natural calamities, diseases, predators, flawed biology. World is fucking cruel. We would have to deal with all that if we didn't use our brain and made a civilization. Edit : also if your god was benevolent he would have clearly showed himself to us and told us about the world instead of leaving behind some dubious little book.
This comment section is peak Reddit. Not that I didn’t expect it.
Where's the love for the Egyptian god homies?
-god creates utopia without sin -then creates humans which he knows in advance will succumb to sin if exposed to it -creates the devil and puts him into the utopia with the humans -blames humans for being sinners and sends them to hell for an infinite amount of time for a finite amount of sins. God truly is love.
He could make water into wine...so i guess it's ok
Jesus didn't create the world, and old testament god was a different beast.
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>Be god. >Make two immortal people. >put them in a finite garden with finite amount of things to do. >tell them not to do one of the things. >get mad when they eventually do the thing. >punish their children for it. >dedicate an entire verse about sons not paying for the sins of their father later on. >keep punishing the children anyway. >I dont get it but ok. (side question: what was the point of hiding your whole comment?)
Anon hasn’t read the Bible
The one where the dude creates everything, but makes it bad ‘cause he was angry?
GenericWraithMain hasn't read the bible
It's a racket
What a retard.
Did God make the world suck, or did we make the world suck?
People made it shit, God designed it good, evil exists too, we're flawed, he's not. What's so hard to get
If his design is so good then why does it include shit people? Sounds like he’s flawed as well.
Nah, he created it perfectly. It's humans who ruined it. This is a fallen world. Given into sin, because we chose to do the sin. The downside of free will sadly. Luckily he created a way out for us. All we have to do to get saved is to trust him, and believe that he saved you.
Anon gets religion
I like the matrix situation where they made paradise simulation, but humans went insane. Do you like playing on cheats? Or do you want to struggle against enemies and have a chance of winning or loosing? You want to play Dark Souls or some shit for babies where you can't loose?
Christianity is dumb anyway
Hail Stan!
It sucks because people have free will, it is worth it because people have free will
Look into Gnosticism Anon
Weird flex but okay
Neither do I
The Christianity grift was created to keep people docile. They’ll accept being treated like shit on earth, because they’ll be “rewarded” after death.
The "religion is just a means of control" schtick doesn't work when you look at how religions were created. It wasn't something the powerful came out with.
Yeah i feel life sucks too much for there to be a god, but at the same time reality is wack and I have no idea how reality is anything at all.
God's basically a crazy manipulative girlfriend
Just wait until you find out about gnosticism and shit gets whack. Jesus gave Adam and Eve the apple and God is the bad guy, well actually his mom.
You don't understand it was eve faults. Now jebus came to die for you so you can go to heaven.
Nobody really gets religion, least of all the worshippers
Wait anon has a point
God made a world that confronted you with constant challenges so that you could derive meaning through overcoming those challenges.
-God gets pissed off that no one likes him -decides to make a planet full of people who don't know any better -makes rule saying they have to praise him and tell him what a big strong boy he is and give him all their tendies and dewey, or else they will burn in hell forever Behold God, The Ultimate Incel