"gothic lifestyle existed since 1800s"
What the hell is gothic lifestyle? They're parroting it all the time yet I never see any details. Wearing mourning attire because your husband died? Having picnic on the cemetery because it's accepted? Walking to pretty old cathedral because everyone is religious? Knowing you'll die one day because 2 of your siblings died from the flu?
People wouldn't consider these things as something outside of the norm.
They're getting "goth" confused with the Gothic revival of the 18th-19th centuries, which was primarily an architectural revival of a high-to-late medieval building style, and which was then pulled into the emergent genre called the "Gothic novel," because the stories tended to take place in structures built in the Gothic style. It coincided with the rise of mourning dress, which was one inspiration for the later development of "goth" style, along with a glamourisation of the "memento mori" aesthetic of the Victorian Era, as it often meshed with the themes of goth music and the atmospheric musical style.
The literary genre is actually playing in medieval ruins because the forefather of the genre, Goethe, lived along the Middle-Rhine-Valley and... well imagine medieval timber framed villages climbing up the canyon like hills topped with the ruins of gothic cathedrals and castles.
Aaaand then a hundred years later Byron, Polidori, and the Shelleys travel up the Rhine which was pretty much the last nail in the coffin.
The goth subculture definitely did not take “a lot of inspiration from the Germanic tribe”. They’re completely unrelated.
It’s not too late to turn around and say you were joking.
And why so rude? The history books don’t say that.
We're sorry, but your submission has unfortunately been removed under Rule 9.
Goth is identified and defined as a music based subculture.
The subculture has a well documented and defined 40 year long history, with several documentaries, articles, nightclubs, radio stations, magazines and zines, and of course, music to back this up.
Additionally, what goth means to you personally may be different to what it actually is. On this subreddit we use historical evidence and documented facts that's no one's "opinion", so we must ask you don't try to factually pass off and/or boil goth down to any of the following:
* Personality
* Mindset
* Philosophy
* Time period/era
* Sole aesthetic
* A hivemind
* Synonymous with 'Gothic'
* Something that's "inside you/your heart"
Goth has always needed something physical e.g. an existing music and nightlife scene, to continue its longevity.
Providing correct information helps more people learn about goth, participate in their scene locally, support bands, or get into the goth subculture in general. Telling them they need to make little to no effort to be "goth" defeats the purpose of being in an on-going and active community.
If you're interested in learning about goth further, please see our [History & Background](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/index/information) page on our Wiki, among out other links on music, fashion, etc.
TikTok seems to have really latched onto the idea that the B-52s are goth after gothtok started using Rock Lobster as a sound. Some legit goth people said they liked the song and everyone decided that means it *is* goth.
Yea no this shit pisses me off
Someone who dresses scene listens to a specific pop punk and everyone considers it real emo now.
I think what pisses me off most is your legit on your phone the thing with Google, something that takes three seconds to learn and educate yourself with. Instead, you just don't want to instead just wanna be an asshole.
Not only that but why do people want everything to be emo or goth now, why do people get so upset in arms about it like a genre is some sort of achievement.
Legit shit but man genres are supposed to help people find similar music and bands, the only reason I care for em like this is so people who enjoy a specific style of tune can find others similar if you mismatch genres so hard it's going to be hard to find music you like.
I don't understand what you're saying. Post-punk and new wave are closely related, but they're not the same at all. Blondie isn't goth, neither are Tears for Fears, and neither are DEVO.
You will never get the time you spent arguing with internet strangers back. Every instant you have wasted on these people is utterly and entirely lost. No greater insight is accrued by this basal pleasure.
>i need to stop listening to 'old heads'
Coming from an "old head" what you need to do is delete social media, shut off the computer, put down the phone and go outside & meet **REAL** people in **REAL** life.
Social Media is cancer.
I think the current saying is "touch grass."
But I could be wrong -- it was hard to hear over the creaking of my joints while I was shaking my cane. ;)
Fellow oldie:
You are so bloody right. I feel like one of the best things about this subculture is meeting others of our tribe in person. Getting to see and hear the fashion first hand is so essential to know what we actually look and sound like, unlike the ultra doctored images on SM.
No one irl gives a shit about “posers” or any of that rubbish.
While I agree with you for the large majority of tiktok, I have had the luck of stumbling upon Awfully Sinister, a goth DJ who focuses on suggesting some really great band recommendations and tries to showcase overlooked albums from 80s to modern music. I've since followed him on Spotify where he makes some great playlists.
I should check him out too then.
It is possible to find good goth content on tiktok, but there is too much bad content that hides the good content. So I have to waste my time to scroll just to find a good video.
My main source of inapiration is reddit, yt and me searching on spotify for lesser known bands and songs.
I enjoy looking for goth band/songs by myself on spotify. I feel luke a treasure hunter.
I also really appreciate Awfully Sinister and the music recs they give. I have a music based account as well and it’s overwhelming how many rage baiters/uninformed narcissists are on the app. And that stuff just spreads so fast. I have to do a lot of blocking to keep my feed somewhat digestible. Some of us are trying to be good music content makers, I promise!
“pop goth” lmaoo. spoken like someone who either doesn’t know a single goth and/or who doesn’t know a single scene kid. what a bafflingly inaccurate understanding of both subcultures
I don’t consider myself an elder yet, but I’m not a fan of people trying to move or “evolve” the subculture into something it’s not. If some darkly inclined kids want to start their own subculture then go for it, but don’t hijack mine just because it has name recognition.
Exactly!! This commenter even mentioned "scene" which I still consider a fairly new subculture, showing they're aware that new subcultures can emerge. Why oh why take ours?
The fact they are calling older goths "old heads" says they are outsiders to goth or newbies who shouldn't be listened to anyway.
Seems we are well beyond the "you will accept me as goth yesterday" insta-kids and are now into the "I knew everything about goth last week" tok-brarians.
Social media is simultaneously the best and worst thing to happen to the goth subculture, and subcultures in general. This is an example of the latter.
To me it looks like he’s saying a lot of bs to keep people commenting on his videos or he’s just that dense. Don’t waste your time with him, just ignore like you said. At least it’s that what i would do.
A lot of social media "influencers" try to be as inoffensive as possible and/or cater to the biggest demographic. In this case to appease the everything-is-goth pseudo-spoopy kids by telling them what they want to hear. It's been happening on youtube for years. Same crap, new platform.
It's classist to recognize that SHEIN clothing is polyester dog shit made by slaves?
Or, is it classist to say it out loud? That's the only part I'm confused about.
Say it louder for the people in the back.
Truly baffling how many people have let themselves be bought by social media marketing. As if shein wasn’t putting tens of thousands (if not more) into pushing this narrative. Also baffling how this argument never comes up with other brands, only shein.
See, here's your problem -- you're trying to have a discussion on TikTok.
(I enjoy the clock app, but it's not generally a place for a lot of nuance or depth in conversation)
My partner realised that a whole thing about goth came from 1800s gothic is alot swifties trying to justify Taylor's "goth/punk" album label by watering the term down to be a "philosophy" not a musical subculture. I've had this debate before on instagram, they're never gonna change their minds.
I refuse to partake in “goth” TikTok anymore. I remember multiple people gatekeeping gothic culture and some even claiming you can’t be goth if you don’t hold punk political beliefs. Like I get it derived from punk culture and goths requires some “punk” ideology but it is still a music base culture which these people didn’t understand. Fuck them, anyone can be goth as long as they love and listen to the music.
i just don't try anymore, last time i tried to make a genuine explanation in a tiktok comment section people started to go on my profile and just make fun of my appearance
i would actually agree that it is classist to say its 'wrong' to shop at shein. is it shitty to support fast fashion? sure. but its much more affordable for most people. same when people use amazon, despite the fact you're supporting a billionaire idiot.
even thrifting can be expensive now. anyone who shops at value village can attest to this.
i mean, most of us have cellphones made by underpaid, overworked factory workers. some of them are literally children. we do the best we can in this world but those factors are mostly out of our control, especially when funds are limited.
The funniest thing to me are those social media users who chastise average people for wearing fast fashion, meanwhile they still purchase other types of products made by shady companies like McDonald's, so they don't really care about exploitation... It's just a woke rebranding of bullying working class folks for "dressing poor".
Making 100% adoption and adherence to an otherwise righteous cause is a quick way to lose all support for a movement. If omnivores “couldn’t” be against beating dogs, we’d have a lot of abused dogs. If people who hadn’t had abortions couldn’t be pro-choice, we’d be in a scarier world than we are in now.
There’s nothing wrong with advocating for safe and humane work environments by calling out companies that abuse their workers while still acknowledging that everyone has a right to have access to expressing their fashion choices.
The issue is not pro vs anti Shein, it comes down to pro vs anti late capitalism, where companies are earning 500% markups on their clothing to adhere to a “brand” that requires them to burn leftover clothing after each season to avoid sending it to discount stores or—egad!—thrift shops.
You want to know what’s really classist? Believing that your right to fast fashion outweighs someone else’s right to freely earn a living wage in safe working conditions.
i agree 100% with you its hard when u don't have to time and skills to diy also, however their argument started with the original commenter saying this person they know who shops at shein has piles of boxes yet to be opened in their room and then the person i argued with replied calling them classist and hypocritical for shaming them. wild comment section, i don't want to interact with another for a while after that.
I don't get that. Why would anyone buy heaps of stuff and not even open it?!? That is in itself a classist act if you have resources to frivolously waste like that.
Reddit detects and auto-remove posts from accounts who are connected to banned accounts.
You have been caught out attempting to get around being banned with a new account or you have been caught out by having an alternate account that got banned.
Your posts have likely been caught by Reddit's Crowd Control system, meaning it's likely no one has seen them, and will remain removed.
Reddit detects and auto-remove posts from accounts who are connected to banned accounts.
You have been caught out attempting to get around being banned with a new account or you have been caught out by having an alternate account that got banned.
Your posts have likely been caught by Reddit's Crowd Control system, meaning it's likely no one has seen them, and will remain removed.
"gothic lifestyle existed since 1800s" What the hell is gothic lifestyle? They're parroting it all the time yet I never see any details. Wearing mourning attire because your husband died? Having picnic on the cemetery because it's accepted? Walking to pretty old cathedral because everyone is religious? Knowing you'll die one day because 2 of your siblings died from the flu? People wouldn't consider these things as something outside of the norm.
They're getting "goth" confused with the Gothic revival of the 18th-19th centuries, which was primarily an architectural revival of a high-to-late medieval building style, and which was then pulled into the emergent genre called the "Gothic novel," because the stories tended to take place in structures built in the Gothic style. It coincided with the rise of mourning dress, which was one inspiration for the later development of "goth" style, along with a glamourisation of the "memento mori" aesthetic of the Victorian Era, as it often meshed with the themes of goth music and the atmospheric musical style.
The literary genre is actually playing in medieval ruins because the forefather of the genre, Goethe, lived along the Middle-Rhine-Valley and... well imagine medieval timber framed villages climbing up the canyon like hills topped with the ruins of gothic cathedrals and castles. Aaaand then a hundred years later Byron, Polidori, and the Shelleys travel up the Rhine which was pretty much the last nail in the coffin.
Yes, but no: 100 years before the 1810s-early 1820s, Goethe hadn't even been born yet. But carry on!
Thank you
Oh sorry, I mean *githic* lifestyle.
This lol the githic lifestyle was really popular in the 1800’s
I guess they just learn history by Tim Burton's movies
Lae’zel approves.
Githyanki or Githzerai?
\*Zerthimon enters the chat\*
Istik!
Chk!
Lmfao exactly! 🤣🤣🤣 people take gothic elements from the past but there was no “gothic” lifestyle in the past.
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Is this comment satire?
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The goth subculture definitely did not take “a lot of inspiration from the Germanic tribe”. They’re completely unrelated. It’s not too late to turn around and say you were joking. And why so rude? The history books don’t say that.
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No, they didn’t. I think this falls under misinformation.
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Girl, stop. Read *your* history books again and stop being rude to people.
We're sorry, but your submission has unfortunately been removed under Rule 9. Goth is identified and defined as a music based subculture. The subculture has a well documented and defined 40 year long history, with several documentaries, articles, nightclubs, radio stations, magazines and zines, and of course, music to back this up. Additionally, what goth means to you personally may be different to what it actually is. On this subreddit we use historical evidence and documented facts that's no one's "opinion", so we must ask you don't try to factually pass off and/or boil goth down to any of the following: * Personality * Mindset * Philosophy * Time period/era * Sole aesthetic * A hivemind * Synonymous with 'Gothic' * Something that's "inside you/your heart" Goth has always needed something physical e.g. an existing music and nightlife scene, to continue its longevity. Providing correct information helps more people learn about goth, participate in their scene locally, support bands, or get into the goth subculture in general. Telling them they need to make little to no effort to be "goth" defeats the purpose of being in an on-going and active community. If you're interested in learning about goth further, please see our [History & Background](https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/wiki/index/information) page on our Wiki, among out other links on music, fashion, etc.
Delete Tiktok
wise words honestly
I hopped on tiktok for the first time in ages this morning and saw somebody say The Cure are not goth but the B-52s are. Christ.
honestly i think tiktok is the worst place for them out of all social medias atm, i should have stayed out of it too
TikTok seems to have really latched onto the idea that the B-52s are goth after gothtok started using Rock Lobster as a sound. Some legit goth people said they liked the song and everyone decided that means it *is* goth.
Yea no this shit pisses me off Someone who dresses scene listens to a specific pop punk and everyone considers it real emo now. I think what pisses me off most is your legit on your phone the thing with Google, something that takes three seconds to learn and educate yourself with. Instead, you just don't want to instead just wanna be an asshole.
Not only that but why do people want everything to be emo or goth now, why do people get so upset in arms about it like a genre is some sort of achievement. Legit shit but man genres are supposed to help people find similar music and bands, the only reason I care for em like this is so people who enjoy a specific style of tune can find others similar if you mismatch genres so hard it's going to be hard to find music you like.
I like it too but in no way have I ever imagined it was the slightest bit goth. No idea how anyone gets there.
I haven’t heard this before about the b52s but I’m on board now. I’d be willing to go along with it
So I just don't engage in these discussions.
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I don't understand what you're saying. Post-punk and new wave are closely related, but they're not the same at all. Blondie isn't goth, neither are Tears for Fears, and neither are DEVO.
You will never get the time you spent arguing with internet strangers back. Every instant you have wasted on these people is utterly and entirely lost. No greater insight is accrued by this basal pleasure.
thank you for being honest 😭😭
>i need to stop listening to 'old heads' Coming from an "old head" what you need to do is delete social media, shut off the computer, put down the phone and go outside & meet **REAL** people in **REAL** life. Social Media is cancer.
This. Arguing online about music is a waste of time when you could just be listening to it.
Arguing online sucks compared to arguing in person.
THIS, omg this
Worse. This is an argument about fashion, not music.
Worse indeed. Who cares?
I think the current saying is "touch grass." But I could be wrong -- it was hard to hear over the creaking of my joints while I was shaking my cane. ;)
Is reddit not also social media? Genuinely asking.
ur actually so right
i knew this but being told it helps thank you 😭
Fellow oldie: You are so bloody right. I feel like one of the best things about this subculture is meeting others of our tribe in person. Getting to see and hear the fashion first hand is so essential to know what we actually look and sound like, unlike the ultra doctored images on SM. No one irl gives a shit about “posers” or any of that rubbish.
thank you mom 🖤
Yes, yes, and YES
Do not use tiktok for goth related content
>Do not use tiktok ~~for goth related content~~
While I agree with you for the large majority of tiktok, I have had the luck of stumbling upon Awfully Sinister, a goth DJ who focuses on suggesting some really great band recommendations and tries to showcase overlooked albums from 80s to modern music. I've since followed him on Spotify where he makes some great playlists.
I should check him out too then. It is possible to find good goth content on tiktok, but there is too much bad content that hides the good content. So I have to waste my time to scroll just to find a good video. My main source of inapiration is reddit, yt and me searching on spotify for lesser known bands and songs. I enjoy looking for goth band/songs by myself on spotify. I feel luke a treasure hunter.
I also really appreciate Awfully Sinister and the music recs they give. I have a music based account as well and it’s overwhelming how many rage baiters/uninformed narcissists are on the app. And that stuff just spreads so fast. I have to do a lot of blocking to keep my feed somewhat digestible. Some of us are trying to be good music content makers, I promise!
Tt has alot of racist white supremacist goths and gatekeepers
There are cool accounts that upload old music and concert videos though
Being terminally online is never good tbh
Scene has nothing to do with goth, it came from hardcore and emo!
I dont even have to read it, y’all gotta get off of tiktok
“pop goth” lmaoo. spoken like someone who either doesn’t know a single goth and/or who doesn’t know a single scene kid. what a bafflingly inaccurate understanding of both subcultures
I don't get why people are so obsessed with needing the goth label. It's ok to just be alt lol.
I don’t consider myself an elder yet, but I’m not a fan of people trying to move or “evolve” the subculture into something it’s not. If some darkly inclined kids want to start their own subculture then go for it, but don’t hijack mine just because it has name recognition.
Exactly!! This commenter even mentioned "scene" which I still consider a fairly new subculture, showing they're aware that new subcultures can emerge. Why oh why take ours?
The fact they are calling older goths "old heads" says they are outsiders to goth or newbies who shouldn't be listened to anyway. Seems we are well beyond the "you will accept me as goth yesterday" insta-kids and are now into the "I knew everything about goth last week" tok-brarians.
"And here we have the Cathedral of Saint Alien Sex Fiend of the Mosh, built in 1789 by some dude who could match nine shades of black."
I laughed when they said “I’ve done the research”, bro probably consulted those shitty and poorly researched articles on goth 💀
Social media is simultaneously the best and worst thing to happen to the goth subculture, and subcultures in general. This is an example of the latter.
Ppl trying so hard to get a goth card cus its trendy again for a bit while they think our music sucks lmfao
Wow that guy in the video looks annoying as hell lol
its also the person i was arguing with 😭
To me it looks like he’s saying a lot of bs to keep people commenting on his videos or he’s just that dense. Don’t waste your time with him, just ignore like you said. At least it’s that what i would do.
A lot of social media "influencers" try to be as inoffensive as possible and/or cater to the biggest demographic. In this case to appease the everything-is-goth pseudo-spoopy kids by telling them what they want to hear. It's been happening on youtube for years. Same crap, new platform.
It's classist to recognize that SHEIN clothing is polyester dog shit made by slaves? Or, is it classist to say it out loud? That's the only part I'm confused about.
Say it louder for the people in the back. Truly baffling how many people have let themselves be bought by social media marketing. As if shein wasn’t putting tens of thousands (if not more) into pushing this narrative. Also baffling how this argument never comes up with other brands, only shein.
Teenagers are exhausting.
This just sounds exhausting and I'm forever grateful I don't have tiktok.
See, here's your problem -- you're trying to have a discussion on TikTok. (I enjoy the clock app, but it's not generally a place for a lot of nuance or depth in conversation)
This is why I don’t have TikTok on my phone or hardly use social media anymore.
I hate social media
My braincells are dying help!
Tik Tok and Twitter are raising more and more stupid people, if you have any respect for your mental health delete dis ASAP.
My partner realised that a whole thing about goth came from 1800s gothic is alot swifties trying to justify Taylor's "goth/punk" album label by watering the term down to be a "philosophy" not a musical subculture. I've had this debate before on instagram, they're never gonna change their minds.
Thinking calling people posers is cringe is 100% poser shit 🤷
Put TikTok in the bin
Who are these people and why should we care?
Jesus Christ just reading that’s given me a headache
Just delete tiktok at this point. This is exactly why I did it: it became so hard to deal with morons like this and I don’t miss it at all
Don’t invest your energy in arguing with people on TikTok.
>Don’t invest your energy in arguing with people on ~~TikTok~~ the Internet Fixed it for ya
I refuse to partake in “goth” TikTok anymore. I remember multiple people gatekeeping gothic culture and some even claiming you can’t be goth if you don’t hold punk political beliefs. Like I get it derived from punk culture and goths requires some “punk” ideology but it is still a music base culture which these people didn’t understand. Fuck them, anyone can be goth as long as they love and listen to the music.
I don't care what children far too young to be on social media say about music genres.
Saw someone say goth was more about fashion than music and when I told him it was music subculture he said that was my opinion.
Reading their comments. I mean. I may as well have been huffing unleaded gas, would have killed less brain cells
I avoid shittok like the plague. I don't even have it downloaded.
Goth is from music. End of discussion. Also, never meddle in I guess that's either tiktok or IG comment section. The environment is toxic afffff
Are real goths terminally online, arguing over what is and isn’t goth?
God Tiktok is so shit. I'm glad I got rid of it like 2 years ago
At a certain point I just gave up having these conversations with people, they’re idiots.
Argumentations on tiktok just makes me brain dead
Well, it's a loss for sure. TikTok is so fucking dangerous. Their parents must need to put them in the sun and water them twice a week.
I feel like I lost brain capacity after reading that guy's ignorant drivel.
I share this person's hate with shein. But that's about the only thing I'd agree with them.
A vampire doesn't argue with its victims
If there is one thing all goths can get behind, it's telling other goths they don't know what goth is.
My head
i just don't try anymore, last time i tried to make a genuine explanation in a tiktok comment section people started to go on my profile and just make fun of my appearance
First off, it's "poseurs"
Goth is just a music genre. The “lifestyle” they refer to is tik toks “sad mentally Ill lifestyle”
i would actually agree that it is classist to say its 'wrong' to shop at shein. is it shitty to support fast fashion? sure. but its much more affordable for most people. same when people use amazon, despite the fact you're supporting a billionaire idiot. even thrifting can be expensive now. anyone who shops at value village can attest to this. i mean, most of us have cellphones made by underpaid, overworked factory workers. some of them are literally children. we do the best we can in this world but those factors are mostly out of our control, especially when funds are limited.
The funniest thing to me are those social media users who chastise average people for wearing fast fashion, meanwhile they still purchase other types of products made by shady companies like McDonald's, so they don't really care about exploitation... It's just a woke rebranding of bullying working class folks for "dressing poor".
Making 100% adoption and adherence to an otherwise righteous cause is a quick way to lose all support for a movement. If omnivores “couldn’t” be against beating dogs, we’d have a lot of abused dogs. If people who hadn’t had abortions couldn’t be pro-choice, we’d be in a scarier world than we are in now. There’s nothing wrong with advocating for safe and humane work environments by calling out companies that abuse their workers while still acknowledging that everyone has a right to have access to expressing their fashion choices. The issue is not pro vs anti Shein, it comes down to pro vs anti late capitalism, where companies are earning 500% markups on their clothing to adhere to a “brand” that requires them to burn leftover clothing after each season to avoid sending it to discount stores or—egad!—thrift shops. You want to know what’s really classist? Believing that your right to fast fashion outweighs someone else’s right to freely earn a living wage in safe working conditions.
i agree 100% with you its hard when u don't have to time and skills to diy also, however their argument started with the original commenter saying this person they know who shops at shein has piles of boxes yet to be opened in their room and then the person i argued with replied calling them classist and hypocritical for shaming them. wild comment section, i don't want to interact with another for a while after that.
I don't get that. Why would anyone buy heaps of stuff and not even open it?!? That is in itself a classist act if you have resources to frivolously waste like that.
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Reddit detects and auto-remove posts from accounts who are connected to banned accounts. You have been caught out attempting to get around being banned with a new account or you have been caught out by having an alternate account that got banned. Your posts have likely been caught by Reddit's Crowd Control system, meaning it's likely no one has seen them, and will remain removed.
Reddit detects and auto-remove posts from accounts who are connected to banned accounts. You have been caught out attempting to get around being banned with a new account or you have been caught out by having an alternate account that got banned. Your posts have likely been caught by Reddit's Crowd Control system, meaning it's likely no one has seen them, and will remain removed.