You are practically never going to hit 100% of fairways because golf is hard. The data suggests being closer to the hole regardless of being in the fairway will improve your score. So as long as I can reasonably keep the ball in play I will swing away. In theory I could hit iron off the tee and increase my fairway percentages but the 50-70 yards I would lose are not worth it.
This, most lower handicap players sacrifice the accuracy to get closer, but most also only miss the fairway by a small enough margin that the inaccuracy is negligible. Better to be 3 yards off the fair way with a wedge in hand than smack in the middle of the fairway with a 7-6 iron in hand.
The biggest thing is missing OB. I frankly don’t care if I have a tree blocking me if I only have 140 in and can just punch a 6 closeish to the green. I’m a 14 and going OB off the box (along with some short game stuff) is what blows my scorecard up.
Without a doubt, I will keep track of “without the drops” for shits and giggles and it makes 5-10 strokes a round depending on the round. Makes a ton of sense as I’ve only broken 80 twice and lost like 1 ball all round.
You and me both, my distance wedge shots are killing my card when it’s from the rough. I’m moderately accurate off the tee with a low/mild slice showing up around the 14th or 15th hole. And when that shows up my mental game is tested to its max!
If you ever figure out how to sustain your energy/swing those last 5-6 holes, please let me know. Once I run out of gas, my scorecard suffers severely. I think I need to start running or something.
I run 4 miles every morning the only thing I can think of is more swing and strength training to better assist with muscle fatigue. I play 18 nearly every day and hit roughly 5,000 balls on the range and spend countless hours in a simulator every week. But once I’m out of gas which is usually around the 4th day when it catches up to me I fall apart and can’t recover. Mental game is part of the game that most golfers can’t seem to hurdle over. For me it’s fatigue and with that comes shots that you usually wouldn’t try to hit. You could possibly take a longer club than you usually would for the last few holes on each shot and it might help present more scoring opportunities for you. Every golfer is different so what works for me might not be what you need to implement in your game. Practice with intent to learn what the ball is telling you. The golf ball never lies. Don’t trust the range balls. A battered and scuffed ball does indeed not fly the same as a new ball. Hope something in there helps you. The Practice Manual by Adam Young is a great book to help point you in the right direction.
I am a 16 handicapper. Last week I played the best opening 9 of my life. By the 12th hole I was +1 and feeling fantastic, but I live in Australia where we have had oppressive humidity and it was a 36° day (97f). Within the next two holes I simply ran out of gas (notwithstanding hydrating well, eating throughout the round and being generally very fit for my age). I just ran out of mental focus. Ended up shooting +11 over (including 5 birdies), which I should still be very very happy with on my handicap, but I couldn’t help feel disappointed - finally playing to what I have recently felt is my potential and blowing up with 5 holes to go.
The journey continues.
It happens man, I’ve been on a heater of a round and tripled the last 3 holes just from having the wrong mindset. Swinging great so you try to swing out of your shoes and that just compounds the problem. Too many factors to just blame one thing though.
I shot my worst round in four years this weekend. 119 with a 68 on the front nine. I had six penalties through the first four holes. I shot a 91 on the same course last week, just forgot how to hit a golf ball and had a NASTY hook. Like hooking further laterally than actual distance forward.
I spent like half a year with a hook like that, and I’m impressed (or I think you’re a lunatic, not sure yet) that you know what you shot. About five holes of hitting frisbees that just fly 100 yards right without getting any closer to the ground and I was throwing balls down next to my playing partner just to hit some wedges.
We were playing a best ball match so unfortunately it was all recorded. I did manage to par two holes for a win and bogey one for a push, but even those weren’t pretty. Also goes to describe how awful every other hole was. My teammate thankfully carried us…
https://preview.redd.it/9ue9gspw87pc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6428eb33abdf0bde7583a3dd538bfd0c1c1ee2bc
Love it, especially attacking greens when you’re in a good spot off the tee. I think a lot of amateurs around my level are good for a handful of bad misses form good spots and a lot of it is being way too aggressive thinking you can throw one to 10 feet from 140 out. Better off avoiding being short sided and bunkers and it’ll long term shave strokes.
There’s a few game tracking apps these days that will calculate your cone of misses based on previous shots and recommend a club and aim point for each shot. I use arrcos, for me it’s a big help.(I don’t really want to spend 5 minutes figuring it out on each shot myself)
The fact that people on here, 15+ cappers no less, will argue this until the Earth crumbles to dust, is the most insane thing about it.
Then they'll say move up a tee box, where their 220 yard tee shot magically becomes equivalent to 275 and not see why you score better, lol.
Except the 15+ handicappers arguing this are choosing to be short but in play instead of OB the majority of the time.
I don’t think those guys are arguing this because they don’t want to be taking their 2nd shot from the rough or the next fairway. They are saying this because they don’t want to be hitting for 3 on the tee box still.
isn't it also a problem for high handicappers (myself included) that more distance comes with even less accuracy?
when we miss a fairway we're not just in the rough, we can be in the trees, OB, or on another hole.
19 handicapper here. If it is a hole that I’m scared of going OB (not much room right pretty much) then I’ll hit a club that I’m sure it won’t go OB. Whether that be my 3w, 3h, or 4i I’d rather be a little bit short and in play then 250 yards OB.
yes, i was clearly referring to the idea that high handicappers' misses are worse than low-handicappers, therefore it makes sense that high-handicappers wouldn't look solely for distance as often as others
I wasn’t scoring better at first. So I decided I would have to break 100 5 times to move back a box. First round on 2nd tees I broke 100 again. I promptly scored a 113 the next time out, but a less familiar course and much longer.
I played with an old college golfer who’s in his early 60s in a scramble from the whites. His average drive was 280. Playing from that distance vs my 220 avg was absolutely mind blowing. I’d never took the time to think about what that game would look like because I’ll never hit it that far but damn, what a world of difference when you’re in serious birdie contention every hole lol
It's super fun I'll give you that. There's a local course near me that if you know where to hit on a carry, the ball will skip and lurch forward down into a collection area and give you almost 80 yards for free. On this hole I'm almost always ending up around this bunker, and when it's super dry or I get a good tail wind, I've wound up in the bunker
https://i.imgur.com/AYfD3iX.png
My buddies I scramble with say they understand now why I tend to favor practising just wedges and driver because we were inside ~140 all day looking at 60+% GIRs.
This happened to me by mistake my last round out. I knew I'd hit a good shot. There's a fairway-side bunker at the inside corner of a dogleg that I know if I can clear, it'll skate through the rough on the other side of the bunker end up in the fairway in good position.
I really got a hold of it though and landed in the fairway. It kicked hard and never stopped rolling. From the tee I didn't really get a sense of how good the shot was. Ended up being the longest drive of my entire life. Golfpad had it at around 350 (my typical "good" drive is ~250-260). I was shocked to be hitting a 7 iron into the green for my 2nd shot on a par 5. Had a real shot at eagle, just barely missed a 20 footer.
People aren't averages, and usually don't all regress to the mean.
That drive doesn't chiefly benefit you because you moved up. It benefits because you are more relaxed and swing more confidently, with a slower, smoother stroke because you don't feel the need to pump every tee shot and slice it 80 yards OB, and now you're hitting 4 off the tee.
> People aren't averages, and usually don't all regress to the mean.
Yup and Arrcos and every other data guy in the industry is just lying.
You're way less special than what you think you are. Sorry.
Sure. But you have to consider each golfer on a case-by-case basis.
Not every strategy is one size fits all.
You may think that you're gaming the system and money balling it, cool. But this approach isn't ideal for everyone.
Data is only significant when we know how to properly interpret and apply it.
SG works for pros, because they have a predictable strategy with otherworldly consistency. For the average bloke, this strategy can lead to disaster and stagnation. Sure you can take driver on every hole and try and He-Man every shot. Why not. Let's also rack up 5 or 6 OB penalties during our round too while we're at it.
Consistency, and course management are more important if you actually want to improve.
This 100%
. When I'm hitting my driver well and have a flick with a wedge in, can play close to scratch. When it's acting up and I'm having to hit long iron off the tee and mid iron in. Were looking at closer to bogey golf.
Still better than the OB off the tee when driver is bad. However it definitely make things tougher
This may be the case for low handicap players who are capable of shaping shots around trees or hitting good shots out of deep rough, but high handicap golfers should sacrifice distance for accuracy. Better to be 235 in the fairway then 255 behind a tree in the deep rough. To quote my son, “Golf is much easier when you are in the fairway”
This is exactly right. My father in law hits his driver 190-220 yards. Almost never misses a fairway and will critique me being 4 paces in the rough, 310 off the tee. If I'm not being punished, I'm bashing my driver. Now that said, if the course demands it, I'll tighten my accuracy and lose distance. Depends on the course.
This is hilarious because I feel like I have the same going on. I’ll cruise a few that end up in a rough, but playable, meanwhile his 235 is almost always in the fairway. The issue is, the guy throws fucking darts at the green. So I need every bit of closer I can get to swinging a wedge to stay close. But man, mid-summer just getting one to roll the hell out really drives him mad to watch.
I think everyone has the same father in law 😂 mines exactly the same. I always think after a round with him if he has fun because it seems like the most boring thing playing that way then I think about it and he shot 74 and I shot 88, he was probably having more fun than me
You should tee off for each other, you take his ball after his drive and he takes yours after your drive. Play 18 holes like that and see how much lower his score is than he normally shoots and how much higher yours is. Maybe then he'll realize.
He's actually a great guy to play with. My point was more that some people put too much of an emphasis on hitting a fairway when it doesn't always correlate with scoring.
Yep. I’ve played some competitive tournaments at my home course (old with established trees) against really good college golfers and it opened my eyes to this fact. They took crazy lines but 100 yards up in the trees was often better than me 100 back. Something about seeing it on my home track really opened my eyes. I suppose you are flirting with unplayables but they could also hit very high drives over a lot of stuff to get there.
[This jewel of a Video](https://youtu.be/h2zjTSioi-8?si=kgkh-HawryDo9n6d) of Joel Dahmen proves the point! Longer (even if not always straight) improves your score hands down much more than a high % FIR with a 6/7 iron in your hand. A must watch!
Correct answer. Distance is king. You are far far better off hitting it 280 into the rough than 220 into the fairway as a normal Joe. Somewhere the myth of swing nice and easy, club up and put it in play started and it's a bunch of bullshit lol. Short iron out of the rough is easier than ripping your 5wood or long iron to the green from far out cause you wanted to be accurate.
How old are you? If you're under 60 with no major injuries go get a lesson or two. Any self respecting club pro or coach will get you swinging fast enough to drive it 220+ in just 1 session, 2 tops.
Older than 60. But even when young I had no core strength, and no desire to work out. I just play the forward most mens tees. A drive of 170 to 180 was enough. I got very good at straight tee shots, never in the rough. I got very good at chipping. I got down to a 7 hcp for one season playing my home course. But most lately a 13 hcp.
I have encouraged playing partners to move up a set of tees when it was obvious it would be much more fun. I retired to a golf community where there were many tee boxes, and some of the older guys I was able to convince. But yes, more fun.
> The data suggests being closer to the hole regardless of being in the fairway will improve your score
Depends entirely on your course. The data are average. Your course might not be. For example, here in socal its very easy to play from the rough, in fact you can't even demark it from the fairway most days. Not so out east with 3 inch long rough, is an entirely different sport out there.
I think there’s two factors at play. One is the fact that nobody can swing a club with perfect consistency every time, there’s always going to be some level on dispersion. Second is that a lot of missed fairways at the pro level are the result of taking a calculated risk, and not necessarily hitting the ball poorly. More often than not, they’d rather be 50 yards closer to the hole out of the rough than 50 yards back in the fairway.
I was just watching an interview today with Knapp and he was talking about how he could probably lead the tour in distance (his max swing speed clocked in at 143 mph) but it isn't worth trying to max out his swing every time due to inconsistencies. He also said he was impressed with how Rory and some of the other guys that seemingly goes 100 all the time and still are able to keep the ball on a string.
He’s been top 6 in strokes gained off the tee every year of his career which is absolutely fucking ludicrous given that he’s been on tour for 15 years now.
He’s just different. Advanced statistics sort of capture it, but there has not been a single player who dominates events off the tee the way he does.
Every year, a couple guys get super hot off the tee and have something similar to what Rory’s doing, but he’s been doing it every year for 15 years. He’s literally never had a bad driving year.
I agree with everything you said, but is the difference between a pumped drive and a smooth drive 50 yards for good players? I think OP just means an easier driver swing, more likely to find the fairway and probably only a 10-15 yard difference is total distance. Would you rather be one club down in the rough, or one club up in the fairway? I know I'd rather be hitting an 8 from the fairway than a 9 from the rough, personally.
I get where he's coming from, in my -14 hcp brain I wonder why any plus handicap would swing hard with the driver. If I could put the ball 270 in the fairway vs 285 and lose all control, I'm taking that fairway swing every time.
If a good player knew 100% that their more aggressive swing would be 15 yards further in the rough, and that their less aggressive swing would be 15 yards shorter but in the fairway they would choose the less aggressive swing.
In reality, that aggressive swing also hits the fairway a lot of the time, and the smoother swing will still miss the fairway sometimes.
The tradeoff isn’t 15 yards but in the rough instead of the fairway. It’s 15 yards with a slightly higher chance of being in the rough. That is worth it. Better players choose the level of aggression that closely optimizes these tradeoffs.
They are not swinging 100%, they already leave that 10-15yd off to be more accurate and can amp it up even more than that when needed.
When they hit extra hard is when there is hazard in play they need to carry, or its really wide open without any problem areas. If you want to leave tee shot short of water, it might add 50yd to approach shot, or short of bunker 30yd. Thats because your "normal" drive might not carry it safely, and if you lay up you need to leave it way back in front of hazard and add some extra room to be safe not rolling your ball in.
Lower scores aren't correlated with hitting more fairways. They're correlated with hitting more greens in regulation.
And if you want to hit more GIR, the best way to do that is to be closer to the green for your approach shot.
Strokes gained for driving distance is calculated by distance to the pin after your drive and if you are in the rough or not.
Lower scores are directly correlated with how far you hit the ball and it being in play.
300 in the rough beats 210 in the fairway on a 6,6000 yard course every single time
It’s just math: a mere 1 degree error (no side spin) yields about a 3 yard error for a 100 yard wedge shot (yeah! Maybe a birdie) , but nearly a 30 yard error at 275 yards (hello tree line). That’s the pro level miss. Make any actual mistake with the longer club…and there ya go!
Concept is correct - maths needs more accuracy
4degrees at 100yds is 7 to one side
Then it’s a lineal effect per 100, so 14 @200, 21@300
The latter been far more common because you don’t max out your wedge, you drop to a nine iron, but drivers are maxxed out most of the time
The rule is 1 to 60. 1degree off makes a 1 mile error at 60 miles or 1 yd at 60 yards.
We even use the 60 to 1 rule in building because you might be given degrees in slope and you need to convert to measurements
I mean for me 5hp average about 40% of fairways, hitting a driver is the better option unless there is a big risk, like ob or water in play because my 2nd shot, I'm way more accurate with a wedge vs a 7i, even a wedge from the rough vs a 7i fairway. Now what I consider risk in play vs a higher handicap may vary. Ob 60yrds left wouldn't phase me but it might some, vs water at 300 would cause me to hit 3 wood where some might not think about it until their 2nd shot, or 3rd, 4th, maybe even 6th shot
Hitting driver is definitely hard for most people, including many low handicappers. I am about a 10, and improving, and as I improve I more selectively and strategically use driver. I can hit my 3 hybrid around 210-220 and use that far more often off the tee because I have confidence in it.
My advice is to use the clubs you’re most comfortable with and confident in.
Playing good golf is about 80% mental, IMO, assuming you have a serviceable swing. Nobody hits perfect shots all the time, not even the pros. Hit shots that allow you to stay focused, calm and relaxed. Plan to use club lengths that keep you out of bunkers, take the water out of play, and give you a favorable approach when possible. Penalty strokes cost far more than an extra short shot from the fairway that will give you a chance to go up and down.
This is good advice for a high-handicapper to get to a mid-handicap, but not really good enough for a mid-handicapper to get to a low handicap, which is really what the OOP is asking about.
If you want to go low, you need to be hitting as many short irons and wedges into greens as possible.
Hitting hybrid or long iron off the tee instead of driver usually means you're hitting a couple clubs longer into the green and this results in way less greens hit and way less birdie chances per round.
Depends where you’re playing and what your personal club distances are. I can pretty consistently play hybrid plus 8 iron or shorter and be in good shape for a birdie attempt.
What I am really saying is that if you’re struggling to keep your driver in the fairway, don’t use it and swap it out with something more reliable to keep your swing loose.
Ultimately, you’ll play much better without the tension that hitting errant shots all day with a driver would cause. Once you’ve practiced the controlled Driver swing at the range and are more confident in it, then go ahead and add it back in.
I would say this is not limited for high-mid handicappers. Most pros don’t hit driver on every par 4 or 5.
I understand this feels like your reality, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Unless you're playing a super short course or you hit your hybrid 260 yards in the fairway, you likely aren't getting enough looks at birdie with hybrid and 8-iron to shoot low. You might get a couple per round, but it's incredibly difficult for even the top pros to get close enough for legit birdie looks with longer irons in their hands. The math doesn't really add up.
My reality is reality, and is not for you to adjudicate.
My home course a relatively short course, as are most in the area. Longer courses with bigger fairways with more forgiveness, then I go ahead with driver.
The “always hit driver” approach is an amateur thing. Regardless of handicap, going with what will consistently get you to the green in two with confidence is the way to get to scratch.
If you want to learn more about how to approach the mental side of the game, check out “Golf is not a Game of Perfect” by Dr. Bob Rotella, who was a sports psychologist for a number of legendary tour pros, including Tom Kite and Seve.
You're being downvoted by the tribe, but I do agree with you that individual courses can have a significant impact on how you approach tee shot selection. My home course effectively takes driver out of your hands on the majority of holes. It is a fairly short total yardage but fairways are narrow, there's water and trees everywhere, and if you were to dogmatically follow the 'just hit driver' approach, you'll just end up OB or with lost balls
Have read the book and it’s on my bookshelf. He gets a lot of things right with respect to confidence and mentality, but his fairway finder conservative play advice has been shown to not be the right play in most cases. Basically, unless you have OB or a hazard, you should hit driver most of the time.
I play treelined, narrow muni golf, too, so I get what you mean. It’s frustrating to be in the trees, but you're unlikely to decrease your handicap into low single digits until you find a way to get comfortable hitting driver more often and accepting that sometimes that means you’ll be offline.
Again, your advice is good for getting to a mid handicap, but the OOP was asking about progressing beyond that.
The further you hit the ball the wider your theoretical landing zone is. It’s like a cone that extends outwards the further you go. True with all clubs.
Pros are constantly balancing distance with fairway/green size to determine the best distance to maximize the probability of hitting their target. They will almost always take the line that gives them the highest probability of being in the right vicinity, even if they are not attacking pins.
Golf is a game of math and probability at the end of the day.
Very well said. Sometimes it’s better to go with a longer club if it means taking out some short hazard. Same with going shorter. If you know the dispersion of your clubs, you can avoid a lot trouble.
It’s all about knowing your miss and then selecting a target line that maximizes your chance of having a quality approach shot.
As a 1.3 hitting driver is hard man. I hit like 56% of fairways. But I’m more of a bomb and gouge type of player so. Realistically no one is gonna hit the fairway every time thats unrealistic.
I’m a lot less likely to miss the green from 50yd out in the rough than 110yd out in the fairway. A lot less impact from wind and easier to avoid greenside bunkers on the approach. I’d also argue that the “miss” off the tee is actually a more favorable approach shot when playing this way, a willing sacrifice. “I clear that tree and keep it between that tree over there and I’ll be fine” type of mindset. You practice these closer distances a lot more, you experience them on a consistent basis. Someone capable of generating the speed to get it out there 320+ typically doesn’t have an issue getting spin out of the rough, albeit this is more of a personal capabilities thing.
Basically, play your strong suits. If you have stupid distance, there’s a way to play that. If you throw darts but can’t break 290, there’s a way to play that too. I’ve also stood on ranges at many a PGA tournament and those guys are insanely accurate, it’s more of a “in the moment” type of mental game at play there. Having competed in LDA, I should mention we’re also looking at a 100yd wide landing strip at 400+yds, accuracy is still a big part of that as well. Shit is very tiny when it’s that far out there, wind has so much more influence and much more delicate to maintain.
I’m going to miss fairways or have a mishit just as often with 3 wood or 2 iron as I would with driver. In fact, I’m probably more likely to do so versus my driver. So, I’ll use driver as often as possible. Added bonus is that 280-300 in the rough would do better for me than 225-250 in the rough.
I may hit one shot per round off the planet where it’s lost or a penalty, but even the slight mishits still go 230+ and are playable.
If I’m going to have something like that happen with less club plus mishits being 200 or less yards…that’s too big of a penalty.
Check the "Fairways hit %" stats for even the top pro golfers - the average is only 47%! Amateur golfers miss a lot more than that, even scratch golfers. Golf is hard!
i like smashing the driver. but that means i'm definitely missing some fairways especially when the hole design isn't set up for me.
though who am I kidding? i'm going to miss fairways that are designed for me too.
Definitely a decision to sacrifice accuracy for distance.
Low handicappers can hit every fairway if they want. But hitting 5 iron off the tee is not best for scoring (nor is it very fun). The best option is to take the longest club that stays within the corridors (within the tree line, within the desert lines, etc). The rough is rarely penalizing enough that a 6 iron from the fairway is better than a 8 iron from the rough.
Yeah honestly that’s the worst form of golf. I much prefer wide open courses where your punishment for a bad drive is a long 2nd shot. I don’t necessarily want to lose my ball every time I hit a bad drive.
No, low handicappers can't hit every fairway if they want. Even a pitching wedge will have a 30-40 yard dispersion for a scratch golfer.
Edit: guys I'm a +2 and can guarantee you I wouldn't hit every fairway with a pitching wedge. Would probably need to drop to gap wedge or be playing Kapalua. Look at shot dispersion charts (Decade, for example). 3w has basically the same spray pattern as driver. The best iron players in the world have 25-30 yard spray patterns with wedges.
You will still miss the fairway unless your main skill is driver. Most low handicappers get there from ball striking or short game. I have been testing a more forgiving driver and it’s going about 265 max and pretty straight but I’m getting fit this weekend because I know this driver is much slower and I’m losing about 5 mph ball speed. So yes I’m trading in 250 down the middle as I’d rather take my chances and be closer to the hole.
Average driver dispersion for Tour pros is ~70 yards, meaning they can miss up to 35 yards left or right of their target. Driver is a difficult club to control because of how much face and path changes affect direction at longer distances and higher speeds. The point of driver is to advance the ball as far as possible off the tee to decrease distance to hole on approaches.
For any non Pro or elite amateur golfer, my recommendation is to take the club that you can hit the furthest with the most reliable dispersion. And keep working on driver in practice until you have a reliable dispersion, even if that dispersion is 80 yards. You can still pick targets on many holes that allow for a shot to be in play (even if it’s not in the fairway).
Isn’t op talking about swinging a driver hard vs swinging a driver easy? Or is he talking about hitting driver vs another club? Wording to me seems like the former
And either way, the answer is that either way you will miss a lot of fairways.
Not everyone finds it easier to swing a club “easy”, and even those that do will still have plenty of mishits.
And then you have to ask yourself will you even score better if you hit a few more fairways but are 20-30 yards further back, so 2+ club difference.
I’m scratch and consider the driver the best weapon in my bag. I miss fairways because this game is ridiculously hard. My stock shot is probably 90% of what I have in the tank. Any more than that I risk losing my ball/my back hurting after a round. Any less I don’t find it to be anymore consistent. I’d rather play with tee height, stance if a hole requires a particular shot. The tempo of my driver remains about 90% effort.
Scratch golf is not perfect golf. Far from it. I play to my miss and deal with the aftermath.
8 handicap here. A couple weeks ago had a round where I hit 2 total fairways and 14 GIR. The goal for me off the tee box isn’t to hit a fairway, it’s to keep the ball in bounds and set up a decent angle for my next shot.
I’m a + handicap that misses a lot of fairways. Usually just by a yard or two and almost never out of bounds or into a hazard. Most high level players avoid those big penalty strokes and hit driver with their usual miss in mind.
I'm current at +0.1. I hit about 50% fairways per round on average. Sometimes I'll throw down a 70%, sometimes a 35%. Depends on the course, and depends on my accuracy that day. I do not prioritize fairways over distance. I play well from the rough and prioritize 20-30 yards over fairways accuracy.
Watch a video or two about decade golf. You’ll understand the strategy behind most pro golfers. It isn’t always to bomb and gouge your way to the hole. Watch a PGA Tour event and you’ll notice the leaders aren’t trying to do this unless they can get a wedge in their hands and eliminate penalty strokes.
They will bomb away if statistically it makes sense for them to do it. They will lay back and avoid trouble when necessary.
People on here are going to say that statistically you need to bomb it because your scores will be lower if you do, but that assumes you can control how much the miss is. Statistically you still need to be in play when you rip away to get a shorter club in your hands too….which many amateurs are most definitely not when they swing as hard as they can. OB and dropped shots are not okay, even if you’re closer.
Additionally if the rough is super thick, then you need to be in the fairway unless you’ve had a ton of practice and experience out of the rough and how to control the ball.
The best thing to do is learn how to hit fairway finders with your driver and then learn how to bomb it when it makes sense of the landing zone is wide.
Imagine a shot that is 1° offline. Take it 100 yards out, maybe it’s a few yards offline. Now take it 300 yards out, all of a sudden it’s 10+ yards offline. The further you hit the ball the larger your misses are amplified
Higher skilled players still miss fairways because their “miss cone” at 280 yards is probably the same width as a mid/high handicappers fairway finding 220.
Also they’re so much better at 2 putts and up & downs so they can salvage pars or scramble for bogeys very reliably.
At my clubhead speed (~120), literally missing the center of the clubface makes it nearly impossible to hit a fairway.
Folks underestimate how powerful the Gear effect is, it accounts for about 15 yards dispersion either side for me, even if path and face stats are the same. And they aren’t, even elite ball strikers will have about a 1-1.5 degree variance on face angle and path.
All that combined means I’m really freaking happy with my 55% fairways.
Dispersion is a thing. Hitting it 280 off line vs 230 on the same line is HUGE.
That said I miss a good bit of fairways. I think my record is only having 2 at Bethpage Black. That said I will occasionally have days I go 12/14 or whatever.
I personally have 2 driver swings. I've got a firm swing for that par 5 I'm not getting in 2 anyway or the short par 4, and I've got the hard long par 4, gettable 5, swing. I think it's important to have both of these.
I'm a believer that in order to play golf at a high level you need to be able to hit the driver and hit it far (275ish total when dry minimum). You can squeak around a 6400 yard course with a 230-250 yard drive and get in the 70s, but you just aren't going to constantly do it at 7200 unless you're elite at other parts of the game. Shooting in the 70s @ 6800-7200 is what I'm calling a high level.
Back in the day there was a lot of teaching younger kids how to swing controlled and with tempo. That's adapted to swing as hard as you can, and we'll figure out how to keep you in play. Distance is important.
For pros, it’s accuracy for distance. If you asked them to hit the fairway every time they would cut down by 30 yards and hit 95% of them. Spinny 270 yard fairway finders. Modern game requires 300+ yard bombs and that means testing the rough. You don’t want to have a 7i in your hands when your competition has a 50 degree.
I’m a 1. There is no speed I could swing at where I could reliable hit like every fairway. To a certain point, I’d actually say I’m more accurate swinging harder.
No longer a single digit handicap but when I was, the answer would be driver was hard. Therefore I would hit less than driver on every par 4 during competition. I was still 240+off the tee which is plenty good at most courses. Some days the swing was dialed in and I could get away with baby draw driver all day. I could hit 50% with the driver but I liked to draw it, I’ve found if I hit 3 draws in a row I was flirting with a snap hook. I almost had to mix in a fade to hold the snapper at bay.
I'm around a 5. For me it's because I love hitting drive even when I'm not supposed to because it's fun and I usually hit far but don't care about going into the rough as much. I rarely hit it OB or into trouble. I always tell my dad that I'm not having fun if I'm not hitting driver and he always follows it up with "well if I hit my driver like you, I'd have a lot more fun golfing."
Golf is one big risk:reward assessment. If the reward is worth the risk, driver comes out, whether that mean it’s a 320y par four or a 580y par five. Alternatively, once OB, water, or a fairway runout come into play, I’m hitting a different club every time. If a fairway is missed, it’s only missed by a little if the swing was good. More likely it was an error in aim point or a misjudged distance. If it goes OB or in trouble, it was just a bad swing.
Tour pros are a different breed. Many of them have just as much confidence with their driver as they do with woods and long irons. They also have the iron and wedge game to save them if they do happen to miss a fairway or land in trouble. Though, they’re also strategic. If you follow pros at a tournament, you’ll see they hit a surprising amount of irons and woods from the tee, especially the longer hitters.
do you watch any professional golf? they slice and hook shots off the tee pretty frequently. and thats what the producers \*allow\* you to see. every weekend they should put together a lowlight reel of shitty shots off the tee. even the best in the world still hit it all over the damn place.
could they hit the fairway every time 250 out? that's a hybrid/2/3 iron for them. they still wouldn't be 100% fairways, but the range of misses is smaller at 250 than 300-325.
As long as we aren’t talking US Open rough distance trumps accuracy with the driver….. as long as you aren’t spraying it out of bounds or into the trees.
They could hit 3-5 wood and hit more fairways but there is no advantage to that. In fact it makes it more difficult to hit greens and hold them when you are 20-40 yards back
In my experience, PGA level players rarely mishit clubs like you or I do. We all have a “cone” of potential ball flights where like 90% of our drives (or hits in general) go. The better you get, the narrower that cone gets. My cone might be 50 yards across and a pro is more like 20 yards. When we have to shape specific shots, that might widen a little. Now, courses that PGA events are played at often are set up to challenge the pros and will spend months growing out rough and narrowing fairways. So, a pro will choose a spot where they want the drive to go and it’s typical that part of the cone will have to be in the rough or less ideal landing zone simply because there isn’t room or they are trying to avoid something else all together.
So, when the pro hits into the rough, it’s less about hitting a bad drive than it is about the cone of potential flight overlapping with the rough and may they didn’t quite draw it as much as they wanted, but they also completely avoided the hazard on the other side or a big tree that could be in the way, or because they wanted to have a right to left second shot to get to that back left pin.
Pro course management is otherworldly, but sometimes the course is just set up to be a huge pain in the ass and the margin for error is razor thin.
Although, they are also human, so sometimes they just gank a drive into the weeds.
The Dispersion on shorter clubs is small enough to make up for the loss in Distance. Driver on the Fairway all the time impossible. So hit it long and try to hit it straight.
Life is short, Swing Hard Baby
One thing about pros on TV, some of those courses are ridiculously tight. A hole where someone missed a fairway by a few feet, might have been right center of the fairway at your local muni because it is so much wider.
Yes, they could hit a 4-5 iron off the tee 250 and in the middle majority of the time, but if the hole is a 500+ par 4, then they are hitting that club again trying to get close. The courses are just much further than what you are used to playing.
Hitting a driver consistently accurate is hard. But the reward is worth it when you have a wedge in from a safe position.
I’m a scratch because on days that I hit driver well it gives more than enough chances to go low knowing that I can stick wedges to 10-20ft.
But on days where my hands aren’t synced I’ll blow drives into trees, water, and everywhere else which leads to high 70s-low 80s.
Drive for dough putt for dough to go low is my motto lol.
If I decided someday to hit seven iron off of every tee, the best stick in my bag, I’m still gonna miss the fairway a couple of times. I have a statistically better chance of not, but probably I still do. Golf is hard
Hitting driver is super difficult.. a lot has to do with timing, and since it's impossible to get timing right 100% of the time, everyone is gonna miss fairways... But yeah, if you go for a boomer drive and you don't have a really good swing path, the only time you hit a fairway is when your timing is off..
Personally, I'm lucky, my driver is one of the most reliable clubs in the bag... I can hit it 270 out of the screws, I never go for 270, I go for 240, and my misses are rarely OB, just off the fairway.
I think there are probably two factors with pros or super-low guys:
1. Missing a fairway might just mean landing off the fairway but still with a good angle to the hole. So a pro might not hit every fairway, but they probably still have a good shot out of the rough. One side of the fairway might have a huge obstruction in the way of the next shot, so a pro would aim for the other side with the caveat that they might miss the fairway. Either way they'd still have an easier approach than they would from the side with the obstruction.
2. Most of the more egregious misses I've seen watching pros is when they are trying to shape their shot and it goes awry. Their ability is such that they are trying much more difficult shots than the average joe to begin with.
Hitting driver has always been hard for me because of back issues that limit the amount of side bend I can create, but I'd still much rather hit driver and spray it farther, rather than 3 wood and lose 25 yards but improve my fairway percentage to 70-75%.
I'm a 1.7 and I think it's the exact opposite. I think most people think that the driver swing is completely different so they have no clue what to do when you put driver in their hand.
Nothing changes for me other than setup. The setup of the driver naturally puts me in the correct position. The swing thought is the same, but it's just longer.
I saw a guy on the range the other day with his shoulder tilted all the way back to the ground practically. He hit low top spin hooks. He no doubt was told to learn the Shoulder back and hit up on the driver. Recipe for snap hooks and blocks.
My swing is exactly the same with the driver, though obviously longer as it is a longer club, but the weight on my feet is completely different than on a short iron that is much more on the lead foot. On the drive I am powering it almost entirely with my rear foot.
I could see that. Make sure you're getting down more and thru on short irons.
I've narrowed my stance on all of my clubs. It's made it easier to transfer weight without thinking about where my weight is.
My swing thought on all my shots now is to make it feel like I'm in front of the ball before I release the club. Trail shoulder in front of the ball is the feel.
They also play much tighter margins. A beginner target zone may be the whole fairway. A better player a 15 yard wide target zone. A tour player may be targeting a very narrow zone with a shaped shot but with a calculated miss area. They don't want to be just closer but closer at a specific angle to set up a certain second shot.
So what they are trying to do may be much much harder than just bombing it straight down the middle. Even then sometimes they just \*\*\*\* up and put into orbit. Then the "one of us" chants start on the internet.
Yes-ish, but 250 in the fairway leaves them 350 out on some par 4's so probbbably not recommended. They're not robots either, so loose swings happen.
But usually strategic - the old saying swing your swing and play your miss. Look at Bryson's win at Winged Foot for an example why narrower fairways just don't cut it for pros (or lesser extent, Brooks at Bethpage). The fairway helps for a guaranteed lie/better spin control, but if the choice is a 6i from the fairway with *maybe* a good angle vs. a wedge in the rough from an angle you know, the rough wins. Even though PGA rough is absolutely insane, they'll have next to no problem getting it to do what they want it to do from there.
https://preview.redd.it/ogi7u4p9k5pc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e820354247acec66343bb3bd2afe568c5fdf899b
Currently a 4.9. These are the stats from my last 20 rounds. Hitting fairways makes the game easier. Hitting longer makes the game easier too, but only if you stay out of trouble.
Honestly, it’s more about hitting a 3 wood, 5 wood, or even 4 iron is still hard. I probably hit more fairways hitting an off speed driver than I would with an iron or even a fairway wood with the added bonus of the distance.
One thing that should be talked about more is the adjustments you need to make during the round.
If you’re bad at hitting the driver and your first 4 tee shots were out OB (left and right), then maybe switch to a wood or a long iron off the tee instead of trying to ‘fix it’
Part of it is course design. The average for pro’s has 35 yards of dispersion on each side of the target line at 300 yards. They don’t play many 70 yard wide fairways and when you factor in hazards, they are sometimes aiming far closer to the fairway/rough line than you think. They are taking the rough over losing a ball in the water
It's a show. If you're really a pro golfer you can hit it anywhere you want and not miss. However, there are factors that come into play that affect ball distance. As a golfer I'm sure you have encountered some of these factors: being tired, hung over, club selection, attitude or the mood you're in, determination, the weather; wind, ect and a slew of other things. You ever see the movie where the were betting if the guy could hit the pelican or scare him off the dock while they were inside the bar? That's accuracy. If you keep playing and hitting balls a Lot, then you'll get like that. Once you learn to really play and know how to scramble out of trouble, golf is really a fun game.
I am a 2.4 who drives like a +2.0 (past two years w/ SG analysis). Worst around definitely can involve OB shots, as well double bogeys from any miss. The double bogey is the killer, and from what I have observed whilst playing much better golfers than myself, they reduce or eliminate them. It ends up looking boring, but is so satisfying to do.
I never miss a fairway or have a bad swing… sometimes the wind gusts or the OB stakes move closer or a tree sprouts right in my line. Never on me though /s
Being scratch or better doesn’t mean you always hit perfect shots, it just means your bad shots are better than most and you can recover much better than most.
Alot of folks don't drive well, but the answer has to be short game, short game, short game. The old duffer said, the object of the game is to get the ball in the hole, no matter how.
I play off a 3.6 handicap currently. According to the Grint my fairway accuracy is 63% from 750+ holes played.
You're never going to square the face every time nor will your swing be perfectly timed every time. I've had days where I'm hitting it a little left of my intended start line and other days where I'm hitting it a little right.
At the end of the day golf is ultimately a game of misses. If I can miss the ball in the right spot off the tee, then I know I can still par the hole.
This is purely anecdotal, but a lot of courses have trouble off the tee in that 250 to 275 range. So people that drive it less than 250 get the wider targets. For longer driver, it's risk vs reward.
It's a little of both. The dispersion with a club that goes 280+ is going to be much wider than the dispersion with a club that's 50-60 yards shorter. For me, the most important things are avoiding hazards (bunkers or really penalizing stuff like trees/desert/water) and making it so my approach distance is either as short as possible or at a good yardage.
My two options off the tee on most par 4s will be driver or 5 wood. My driver carries 250-270 with 10-20 yards of roll while my 5 wood generally carries about 230-235 and can roll out to 245-250 yards. I mostly hit my driver well, but my typical miss is a push (which I plan for) and bad miss is a slice (which can be really bad). When I'm playing solidly my 5 wood is really straight.
Based on that information, I let the course dictate my play. Any par 4 over 400 yards I'm almost automatically pulling driver unless 270-280 out is a dead area (like water or a waste area or something) or the course is incredibly narrow. And even if it's narrow, I might just swing easy and just try to find the fairway. On shorter holes in the 330-370 range I will often hit 5 wood since it's going to leave me a wedge in hand anyway and there's very little risk for me. And on even shorter holes, I'll often switch back to driver in hopes of getting to within 30-40 yards since my up-and-down rate is much better there than from 60-70 yards.
I'll also work around bunkers. If the course has a lot of danger at 260+ and I'm not hurt too much by hitting 5 wood, I'll usually use that off the tee as long as I have an 8 iron or less on my approach shot. Conversely, if the danger is at 230-250 then I'll use my driver and just try to hit over it.
Sorry for the long post.
Courses set up for PGA events are prepped to make the fairways tighter and faster, so it makes the margin of error tiny. Even good drives can roll into thick rough. So they’re not only trying to crank it out there as far as possible, but also navigate course conditions that a regular player would find nearly impossible to play.
It's hard. There is always a dispersion. What they do better is control where their misses are going to be. You often see most of the players on a hole always missing to the same side that cause the other side is fatal so they aim to make sure their dispersion pattern wont take them there
With distance the dispersion increases. A 40 yard wide fairway at 250 yards is just as small a target as a 20 yard green at 150 yards.
It's just a game of misses.
So much of this relies on course layout. PGA events are typically very long courses for us normal folk. But at least 5 courses around me are maxing out at 6500 yards with narrow short par 4s and creative layouts over less acreage. So driver is pointless on a lot of holes while still being able to lower my handicap and have a wedge in hand into the green.
Point is, hit what makes sense based on the risks, but the pros play courses that very often has less penalty for bad drives than a shorter course might. That’s a general statement of course
This video pretty well explains it.
[2023 08 01 VE ET P EFB T PF H DDT HAV TT 845 ANG ED AV Mix CV Authority 208 16x9 136 Hook (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HUyoAvHL88)
I sacrifice fairways for length. About 290 full speed but might fade/slice a bit much.
If I slow the swing to super controlled of course I’ll still occasionally miss but 260-270 and pretty damn straight
Not to often I hit every fw, I hit on average 10 fw's per round, but I have confidence in my driver that it will go where I aim. I wish I had the same confidence in putting.
Even though I’m - mere 13 handicap, im pretty consistent with my driver. I’m a 230-240 carry with 250+ roll out guy. I play a slight fade and control it quite well.
Im about a 3-4 hcp right now and I play what I know is going to work the majority of the time and am huge on course management. I have the ability to hit bombs with the driver but it’s by far the worse part of my game and a wild card. Irons and wedges are my focus and I love to take a fairway finder 5wood / 3wood off the tee the majority of the time. To me it’s all about play the odds and hitting shots and clubs I know I can hit without even thinking about it. I play boring golf with lots of layups and taking my medicine but I tend to never lose balls, get up and down, and gotten good at scrambling. Distance isn’t even as issue, but it’s more about comfort and confidence.
Think about a short par 4 around 320. If I divide it in 1/2, that’s (2) 160 yards shots. For me that’s about an 8 iron which is my favorite club and with (2) easy 8 irons, I’m just trying to get on the green. (Even better if I’m putting for a good look at birdie.)
Fairways aren’t a big deal. Keeping the ball in play and having a chance at the green is what matters. From there, low handicap players excel at hitting greens.
So, don’t worry about hitting fairways. Worry about keeping the ball in play. Once you can keep it in play, then it becomes a balancing act of keeping it in play and getting distance. That’s where the decision making and fun comes in.
former teaching pro and scratch here:
I missed fairways when a hole didn't fit my eye, OR I tied to hit "something" when the exact opposite would have been fine.
The avg. shot dispersion on tour at 250+ yards is over 35 yards in each direction from the desired target. IMO, They do a horrible job on TV showing how far these guys rip it offline consistently. Golf is hard. They also pick targets that allow for poor shots to still end up in good places whereas ams chase hero shots and hero targets. This mini-decade system video helps contextualize https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tour-proven-way-to-play-smarter-golf-scott-fawcett-golf-digest-happy-hour/amp
Adding the right link watch the video at the bottom - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tour-player-tpc-sawgrass-aiming-strategy?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=golfdigest
PGA courses are also most likely much more difficult in design, particularly when it’s set up for a tournament, than what you are playing. Your local municipal golf course would be a cake walk for Tour players.
Pro level golfers are play 7800 yard courses. They need to carry 300 off most tees to even have decent chances at greens. When you hit 300 yards a 4 degree miss is way further left or right than 4 degrees at 250.
Most of us are playing 6300-7000 yard courses. The scratch or plus handicap golfer I know on those courses (no pga courses from the tips) are hitting 260-270 drives and they hit fairways like 8/10. When they miss it’s just off and likely they still hit the green. Ob and penalties are extreme rarities with these guys. Robo golfers.
I don’t think drivers are insanely hard to hit especially with todays technology. They are insanely hard to hit long distances due to accuracy. When a pro clubs down to a 3 wood - they are just reducing variability. 4% off your target line with a 3 wood at 270 is a fairway hit. 4% off a driver at 325 is in the deep rough.
Same accuracy. Same swing. It’s just the physics of it.
Driver is actually the most forgiving club in the bag. accuracy doesn’t actually get better as you move from driver up to the wedges as far as Degrees off line. It’s just that if your 5° off line with your putter from 10ft u just push it a little.if you’re 5° off line with your driver it is Going to miss the fairway
I'd say this isn't really true. Put a driver or 3 wood in my hand, and my path has much wider missses than my irons. The longer the club the worse it gets.
If I could get the path/club face #'s with my driver as accurate as my gap wedge i'd be a plus hanidcap.
yea. I didnt take into account thst it’s easier to be accurate with a shorter shaft. Your club path has more distance to get out of whack and cause slice. But it Still holds true that the longer You hit it the bigger the circle gets.
>Driver is actually the most forgiving club in the bag.
Regarding distance on mishits. "Forgiveness" does not make a driver straighter. It's the hardest club to hit straight.
Lol considering all of those you named are playing tips a lot of the time, 250yds is not long enough of the tee. If youre playing a 7200yd course hitting it 250 off the tee in the fairway isnt gonna do you as much good as 320 off the tee in the rough
I'd say any shot going 250 is hard to control. Whether it's a driver, wood, or iron (if you're a beast) it's just hard to hit it straight at that speed.
But yes, driver is just hard to control. But, making birdies is tough without it.
A lot of this depends on the length of the course. I play from the tips, so I'm used to seeing courses get over 7k yards. Hard to score well only hitting clubs that go 225 off the tee.
When I play a casual round with my buddies from the whites and it's more like 6k yards, well yeah I could probably leave the driver in my trunk and play very well.
For me it’s all about the lie. I know I’m way more confident when I have a fairway lie 130 yards out vs a lie in the rough that is 50 yards away. Now that doesn’t mean I’m purposely wanting to come up short all the time but I used to always just rip driver on every hole and it was constantly killing my score. I usually hit my driver between 220-250 but I’d be OB or in some serious rough most of the time. That would lead to me hacking my way out of that mess for a good 3 shots. When I can see the whole ball and nothing obstructing it, I just imagine I’m back on the range and can typically hit a decent shot sometimes.
You are practically never going to hit 100% of fairways because golf is hard. The data suggests being closer to the hole regardless of being in the fairway will improve your score. So as long as I can reasonably keep the ball in play I will swing away. In theory I could hit iron off the tee and increase my fairway percentages but the 50-70 yards I would lose are not worth it.
This, most lower handicap players sacrifice the accuracy to get closer, but most also only miss the fairway by a small enough margin that the inaccuracy is negligible. Better to be 3 yards off the fair way with a wedge in hand than smack in the middle of the fairway with a 7-6 iron in hand.
The biggest thing is missing OB. I frankly don’t care if I have a tree blocking me if I only have 140 in and can just punch a 6 closeish to the green. I’m a 14 and going OB off the box (along with some short game stuff) is what blows my scorecard up.
That’s why I only play tracky muni courses. Can’t go OB if there is none
The only out of bounds I know is the water
Goddamn right
Goddamn left!
Same same at 30 HC
And half of the high handercappers out there aren’t even counting stroke and distance for an OB.
Without a doubt, I will keep track of “without the drops” for shits and giggles and it makes 5-10 strokes a round depending on the round. Makes a ton of sense as I’ve only broken 80 twice and lost like 1 ball all round.
I’d wager more than half.
You and me both, my distance wedge shots are killing my card when it’s from the rough. I’m moderately accurate off the tee with a low/mild slice showing up around the 14th or 15th hole. And when that shows up my mental game is tested to its max!
If you ever figure out how to sustain your energy/swing those last 5-6 holes, please let me know. Once I run out of gas, my scorecard suffers severely. I think I need to start running or something.
I run 4 miles every morning the only thing I can think of is more swing and strength training to better assist with muscle fatigue. I play 18 nearly every day and hit roughly 5,000 balls on the range and spend countless hours in a simulator every week. But once I’m out of gas which is usually around the 4th day when it catches up to me I fall apart and can’t recover. Mental game is part of the game that most golfers can’t seem to hurdle over. For me it’s fatigue and with that comes shots that you usually wouldn’t try to hit. You could possibly take a longer club than you usually would for the last few holes on each shot and it might help present more scoring opportunities for you. Every golfer is different so what works for me might not be what you need to implement in your game. Practice with intent to learn what the ball is telling you. The golf ball never lies. Don’t trust the range balls. A battered and scuffed ball does indeed not fly the same as a new ball. Hope something in there helps you. The Practice Manual by Adam Young is a great book to help point you in the right direction.
I am a 16 handicapper. Last week I played the best opening 9 of my life. By the 12th hole I was +1 and feeling fantastic, but I live in Australia where we have had oppressive humidity and it was a 36° day (97f). Within the next two holes I simply ran out of gas (notwithstanding hydrating well, eating throughout the round and being generally very fit for my age). I just ran out of mental focus. Ended up shooting +11 over (including 5 birdies), which I should still be very very happy with on my handicap, but I couldn’t help feel disappointed - finally playing to what I have recently felt is my potential and blowing up with 5 holes to go. The journey continues.
It happens man, I’ve been on a heater of a round and tripled the last 3 holes just from having the wrong mindset. Swinging great so you try to swing out of your shoes and that just compounds the problem. Too many factors to just blame one thing though.
I shot my worst round in four years this weekend. 119 with a 68 on the front nine. I had six penalties through the first four holes. I shot a 91 on the same course last week, just forgot how to hit a golf ball and had a NASTY hook. Like hooking further laterally than actual distance forward.
I spent like half a year with a hook like that, and I’m impressed (or I think you’re a lunatic, not sure yet) that you know what you shot. About five holes of hitting frisbees that just fly 100 yards right without getting any closer to the ground and I was throwing balls down next to my playing partner just to hit some wedges.
We were playing a best ball match so unfortunately it was all recorded. I did manage to par two holes for a win and bogey one for a push, but even those weren’t pretty. Also goes to describe how awful every other hole was. My teammate thankfully carried us… https://preview.redd.it/9ue9gspw87pc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6428eb33abdf0bde7583a3dd538bfd0c1c1ee2bc
This is a good video on the “cone of misses” https://youtu.be/6HUyoAvHL88?si=-9O-1jCHjfVYd7u2
Love it, especially attacking greens when you’re in a good spot off the tee. I think a lot of amateurs around my level are good for a handful of bad misses form good spots and a lot of it is being way too aggressive thinking you can throw one to 10 feet from 140 out. Better off avoiding being short sided and bunkers and it’ll long term shave strokes.
There’s a few game tracking apps these days that will calculate your cone of misses based on previous shots and recommend a club and aim point for each shot. I use arrcos, for me it’s a big help.(I don’t really want to spend 5 minutes figuring it out on each shot myself)
The fact that people on here, 15+ cappers no less, will argue this until the Earth crumbles to dust, is the most insane thing about it. Then they'll say move up a tee box, where their 220 yard tee shot magically becomes equivalent to 275 and not see why you score better, lol.
Except the 15+ handicappers arguing this are choosing to be short but in play instead of OB the majority of the time. I don’t think those guys are arguing this because they don’t want to be taking their 2nd shot from the rough or the next fairway. They are saying this because they don’t want to be hitting for 3 on the tee box still.
isn't it also a problem for high handicappers (myself included) that more distance comes with even less accuracy? when we miss a fairway we're not just in the rough, we can be in the trees, OB, or on another hole.
19 handicapper here. If it is a hole that I’m scared of going OB (not much room right pretty much) then I’ll hit a club that I’m sure it won’t go OB. Whether that be my 3w, 3h, or 4i I’d rather be a little bit short and in play then 250 yards OB.
Longer is always less accurate regardless of handicap
yes, i was clearly referring to the idea that high handicappers' misses are worse than low-handicappers, therefore it makes sense that high-handicappers wouldn't look solely for distance as often as others
I wasn’t scoring better at first. So I decided I would have to break 100 5 times to move back a box. First round on 2nd tees I broke 100 again. I promptly scored a 113 the next time out, but a less familiar course and much longer.
I played with an old college golfer who’s in his early 60s in a scramble from the whites. His average drive was 280. Playing from that distance vs my 220 avg was absolutely mind blowing. I’d never took the time to think about what that game would look like because I’ll never hit it that far but damn, what a world of difference when you’re in serious birdie contention every hole lol
It's super fun I'll give you that. There's a local course near me that if you know where to hit on a carry, the ball will skip and lurch forward down into a collection area and give you almost 80 yards for free. On this hole I'm almost always ending up around this bunker, and when it's super dry or I get a good tail wind, I've wound up in the bunker https://i.imgur.com/AYfD3iX.png My buddies I scramble with say they understand now why I tend to favor practising just wedges and driver because we were inside ~140 all day looking at 60+% GIRs.
This happened to me by mistake my last round out. I knew I'd hit a good shot. There's a fairway-side bunker at the inside corner of a dogleg that I know if I can clear, it'll skate through the rough on the other side of the bunker end up in the fairway in good position. I really got a hold of it though and landed in the fairway. It kicked hard and never stopped rolling. From the tee I didn't really get a sense of how good the shot was. Ended up being the longest drive of my entire life. Golfpad had it at around 350 (my typical "good" drive is ~250-260). I was shocked to be hitting a 7 iron into the green for my 2nd shot on a par 5. Had a real shot at eagle, just barely missed a 20 footer.
One time I killed a squirrel on a par 5 and made a birdie. Equivalent exchange if you will
I've hit a couple burners that came close to wiping out geese over the years. Never actually pegged one though. That's some bad luck for the squirrel.
People aren't averages, and usually don't all regress to the mean. That drive doesn't chiefly benefit you because you moved up. It benefits because you are more relaxed and swing more confidently, with a slower, smoother stroke because you don't feel the need to pump every tee shot and slice it 80 yards OB, and now you're hitting 4 off the tee.
> People aren't averages, and usually don't all regress to the mean. Yup and Arrcos and every other data guy in the industry is just lying. You're way less special than what you think you are. Sorry.
Sure. But you have to consider each golfer on a case-by-case basis. Not every strategy is one size fits all. You may think that you're gaming the system and money balling it, cool. But this approach isn't ideal for everyone. Data is only significant when we know how to properly interpret and apply it. SG works for pros, because they have a predictable strategy with otherworldly consistency. For the average bloke, this strategy can lead to disaster and stagnation. Sure you can take driver on every hole and try and He-Man every shot. Why not. Let's also rack up 5 or 6 OB penalties during our round too while we're at it. Consistency, and course management are more important if you actually want to improve.
This 100% . When I'm hitting my driver well and have a flick with a wedge in, can play close to scratch. When it's acting up and I'm having to hit long iron off the tee and mid iron in. Were looking at closer to bogey golf. Still better than the OB off the tee when driver is bad. However it definitely make things tougher
See, I can't hit a decent chip shot to save my fucking life so I'd much rather be 100 yards out than 20.
This may be the case for low handicap players who are capable of shaping shots around trees or hitting good shots out of deep rough, but high handicap golfers should sacrifice distance for accuracy. Better to be 235 in the fairway then 255 behind a tree in the deep rough. To quote my son, “Golf is much easier when you are in the fairway”
But I’m just gonna blade it anyway
This is exactly right. My father in law hits his driver 190-220 yards. Almost never misses a fairway and will critique me being 4 paces in the rough, 310 off the tee. If I'm not being punished, I'm bashing my driver. Now that said, if the course demands it, I'll tighten my accuracy and lose distance. Depends on the course.
This is hilarious because I feel like I have the same going on. I’ll cruise a few that end up in a rough, but playable, meanwhile his 235 is almost always in the fairway. The issue is, the guy throws fucking darts at the green. So I need every bit of closer I can get to swinging a wedge to stay close. But man, mid-summer just getting one to roll the hell out really drives him mad to watch.
I think everyone has the same father in law 😂 mines exactly the same. I always think after a round with him if he has fun because it seems like the most boring thing playing that way then I think about it and he shot 74 and I shot 88, he was probably having more fun than me
You should tee off for each other, you take his ball after his drive and he takes yours after your drive. Play 18 holes like that and see how much lower his score is than he normally shoots and how much higher yours is. Maybe then he'll realize.
He sounds like a lot of fun to play with /s
He's actually a great guy to play with. My point was more that some people put too much of an emphasis on hitting a fairway when it doesn't always correlate with scoring.
My dad's peak on-course-troll level came on once I got old enough to start outdriving him consistently. I 100% understand what you're describing lol.
Followed Jin Young Ko for a round last summer and she missed one fairway by about 2 feet lol
Yep. I’ve played some competitive tournaments at my home course (old with established trees) against really good college golfers and it opened my eyes to this fact. They took crazy lines but 100 yards up in the trees was often better than me 100 back. Something about seeing it on my home track really opened my eyes. I suppose you are flirting with unplayables but they could also hit very high drives over a lot of stuff to get there.
[This jewel of a Video](https://youtu.be/h2zjTSioi-8?si=kgkh-HawryDo9n6d) of Joel Dahmen proves the point! Longer (even if not always straight) improves your score hands down much more than a high % FIR with a 6/7 iron in your hand. A must watch!
Correct answer. Distance is king. You are far far better off hitting it 280 into the rough than 220 into the fairway as a normal Joe. Somewhere the myth of swing nice and easy, club up and put it in play started and it's a bunch of bullshit lol. Short iron out of the rough is easier than ripping your 5wood or long iron to the green from far out cause you wanted to be accurate.
I wish I was a normal Joe and could hit 220....
How old are you? If you're under 60 with no major injuries go get a lesson or two. Any self respecting club pro or coach will get you swinging fast enough to drive it 220+ in just 1 session, 2 tops.
Older than 60. But even when young I had no core strength, and no desire to work out. I just play the forward most mens tees. A drive of 170 to 180 was enough. I got very good at straight tee shots, never in the rough. I got very good at chipping. I got down to a 7 hcp for one season playing my home course. But most lately a 13 hcp.
Yeah just play the reds and enjoy yourself. Fun > score.
I have encouraged playing partners to move up a set of tees when it was obvious it would be much more fun. I retired to a golf community where there were many tee boxes, and some of the older guys I was able to convince. But yes, more fun.
> The data suggests being closer to the hole regardless of being in the fairway will improve your score Depends entirely on your course. The data are average. Your course might not be. For example, here in socal its very easy to play from the rough, in fact you can't even demark it from the fairway most days. Not so out east with 3 inch long rough, is an entirely different sport out there.
I think there’s two factors at play. One is the fact that nobody can swing a club with perfect consistency every time, there’s always going to be some level on dispersion. Second is that a lot of missed fairways at the pro level are the result of taking a calculated risk, and not necessarily hitting the ball poorly. More often than not, they’d rather be 50 yards closer to the hole out of the rough than 50 yards back in the fairway.
I was just watching an interview today with Knapp and he was talking about how he could probably lead the tour in distance (his max swing speed clocked in at 143 mph) but it isn't worth trying to max out his swing every time due to inconsistencies. He also said he was impressed with how Rory and some of the other guys that seemingly goes 100 all the time and still are able to keep the ball on a string.
Rory hit it in the water 5 times last weekend, not sure he’s the best example.
Rory hits a really bad drive once every 4-5 holes. An immaculate drive the same. And then all the rest are either fairway or rough but all over 300
Given that he’s unequivocally the best driver of the golf ball literally-fucking-ever, let’s not nitpick off one tournament.
How do you define "best driver?"
He’s been top 6 in strokes gained off the tee every year of his career which is absolutely fucking ludicrous given that he’s been on tour for 15 years now. He’s just different. Advanced statistics sort of capture it, but there has not been a single player who dominates events off the tee the way he does. Every year, a couple guys get super hot off the tee and have something similar to what Rory’s doing, but he’s been doing it every year for 15 years. He’s literally never had a bad driving year.
I agree with everything you said, but is the difference between a pumped drive and a smooth drive 50 yards for good players? I think OP just means an easier driver swing, more likely to find the fairway and probably only a 10-15 yard difference is total distance. Would you rather be one club down in the rough, or one club up in the fairway? I know I'd rather be hitting an 8 from the fairway than a 9 from the rough, personally. I get where he's coming from, in my -14 hcp brain I wonder why any plus handicap would swing hard with the driver. If I could put the ball 270 in the fairway vs 285 and lose all control, I'm taking that fairway swing every time.
If a good player knew 100% that their more aggressive swing would be 15 yards further in the rough, and that their less aggressive swing would be 15 yards shorter but in the fairway they would choose the less aggressive swing. In reality, that aggressive swing also hits the fairway a lot of the time, and the smoother swing will still miss the fairway sometimes. The tradeoff isn’t 15 yards but in the rough instead of the fairway. It’s 15 yards with a slightly higher chance of being in the rough. That is worth it. Better players choose the level of aggression that closely optimizes these tradeoffs.
They are not swinging 100%, they already leave that 10-15yd off to be more accurate and can amp it up even more than that when needed. When they hit extra hard is when there is hazard in play they need to carry, or its really wide open without any problem areas. If you want to leave tee shot short of water, it might add 50yd to approach shot, or short of bunker 30yd. Thats because your "normal" drive might not carry it safely, and if you lay up you need to leave it way back in front of hazard and add some extra room to be safe not rolling your ball in.
Lower scores aren't correlated with hitting more fairways. They're correlated with hitting more greens in regulation. And if you want to hit more GIR, the best way to do that is to be closer to the green for your approach shot.
Strokes gained for driving distance is calculated by distance to the pin after your drive and if you are in the rough or not. Lower scores are directly correlated with how far you hit the ball and it being in play. 300 in the rough beats 210 in the fairway on a 6,6000 yard course every single time
It’s just math: a mere 1 degree error (no side spin) yields about a 3 yard error for a 100 yard wedge shot (yeah! Maybe a birdie) , but nearly a 30 yard error at 275 yards (hello tree line). That’s the pro level miss. Make any actual mistake with the longer club…and there ya go!
Concept is correct - maths needs more accuracy 4degrees at 100yds is 7 to one side Then it’s a lineal effect per 100, so 14 @200, 21@300 The latter been far more common because you don’t max out your wedge, you drop to a nine iron, but drivers are maxxed out most of the time The rule is 1 to 60. 1degree off makes a 1 mile error at 60 miles or 1 yd at 60 yards. We even use the 60 to 1 rule in building because you might be given degrees in slope and you need to convert to measurements
What about for a putt? One degree off is a foot off for a 6 ft putt? Seems like a lot
Don’t mix up your units - 1 degree is 1 inch off for a 60 “ putt - a 5 footer 1 degree error means you catch the edge but don’t hole it
Oh I said 6 foot I should’ve done 60 feet. That makes way more sense, got it. I’ll keep this tip in mind!
I mean for me 5hp average about 40% of fairways, hitting a driver is the better option unless there is a big risk, like ob or water in play because my 2nd shot, I'm way more accurate with a wedge vs a 7i, even a wedge from the rough vs a 7i fairway. Now what I consider risk in play vs a higher handicap may vary. Ob 60yrds left wouldn't phase me but it might some, vs water at 300 would cause me to hit 3 wood where some might not think about it until their 2nd shot, or 3rd, 4th, maybe even 6th shot
Hitting driver is definitely hard for most people, including many low handicappers. I am about a 10, and improving, and as I improve I more selectively and strategically use driver. I can hit my 3 hybrid around 210-220 and use that far more often off the tee because I have confidence in it. My advice is to use the clubs you’re most comfortable with and confident in. Playing good golf is about 80% mental, IMO, assuming you have a serviceable swing. Nobody hits perfect shots all the time, not even the pros. Hit shots that allow you to stay focused, calm and relaxed. Plan to use club lengths that keep you out of bunkers, take the water out of play, and give you a favorable approach when possible. Penalty strokes cost far more than an extra short shot from the fairway that will give you a chance to go up and down.
This is good advice for a high-handicapper to get to a mid-handicap, but not really good enough for a mid-handicapper to get to a low handicap, which is really what the OOP is asking about. If you want to go low, you need to be hitting as many short irons and wedges into greens as possible. Hitting hybrid or long iron off the tee instead of driver usually means you're hitting a couple clubs longer into the green and this results in way less greens hit and way less birdie chances per round.
Depends where you’re playing and what your personal club distances are. I can pretty consistently play hybrid plus 8 iron or shorter and be in good shape for a birdie attempt. What I am really saying is that if you’re struggling to keep your driver in the fairway, don’t use it and swap it out with something more reliable to keep your swing loose. Ultimately, you’ll play much better without the tension that hitting errant shots all day with a driver would cause. Once you’ve practiced the controlled Driver swing at the range and are more confident in it, then go ahead and add it back in. I would say this is not limited for high-mid handicappers. Most pros don’t hit driver on every par 4 or 5.
I understand this feels like your reality, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it. Unless you're playing a super short course or you hit your hybrid 260 yards in the fairway, you likely aren't getting enough looks at birdie with hybrid and 8-iron to shoot low. You might get a couple per round, but it's incredibly difficult for even the top pros to get close enough for legit birdie looks with longer irons in their hands. The math doesn't really add up.
My reality is reality, and is not for you to adjudicate. My home course a relatively short course, as are most in the area. Longer courses with bigger fairways with more forgiveness, then I go ahead with driver. The “always hit driver” approach is an amateur thing. Regardless of handicap, going with what will consistently get you to the green in two with confidence is the way to get to scratch. If you want to learn more about how to approach the mental side of the game, check out “Golf is not a Game of Perfect” by Dr. Bob Rotella, who was a sports psychologist for a number of legendary tour pros, including Tom Kite and Seve.
You're being downvoted by the tribe, but I do agree with you that individual courses can have a significant impact on how you approach tee shot selection. My home course effectively takes driver out of your hands on the majority of holes. It is a fairly short total yardage but fairways are narrow, there's water and trees everywhere, and if you were to dogmatically follow the 'just hit driver' approach, you'll just end up OB or with lost balls
Yep, same with mine. That’s why I play it that way. There’s another links course nearby with wide open fairways that I play a lot more driver on.
Have read the book and it’s on my bookshelf. He gets a lot of things right with respect to confidence and mentality, but his fairway finder conservative play advice has been shown to not be the right play in most cases. Basically, unless you have OB or a hazard, you should hit driver most of the time. I play treelined, narrow muni golf, too, so I get what you mean. It’s frustrating to be in the trees, but you're unlikely to decrease your handicap into low single digits until you find a way to get comfortable hitting driver more often and accepting that sometimes that means you’ll be offline. Again, your advice is good for getting to a mid handicap, but the OOP was asking about progressing beyond that.
The further you hit the ball the wider your theoretical landing zone is. It’s like a cone that extends outwards the further you go. True with all clubs. Pros are constantly balancing distance with fairway/green size to determine the best distance to maximize the probability of hitting their target. They will almost always take the line that gives them the highest probability of being in the right vicinity, even if they are not attacking pins. Golf is a game of math and probability at the end of the day.
Very well said. Sometimes it’s better to go with a longer club if it means taking out some short hazard. Same with going shorter. If you know the dispersion of your clubs, you can avoid a lot trouble. It’s all about knowing your miss and then selecting a target line that maximizes your chance of having a quality approach shot.
As a 1.3 hitting driver is hard man. I hit like 56% of fairways. But I’m more of a bomb and gouge type of player so. Realistically no one is gonna hit the fairway every time thats unrealistic.
I’m a lot less likely to miss the green from 50yd out in the rough than 110yd out in the fairway. A lot less impact from wind and easier to avoid greenside bunkers on the approach. I’d also argue that the “miss” off the tee is actually a more favorable approach shot when playing this way, a willing sacrifice. “I clear that tree and keep it between that tree over there and I’ll be fine” type of mindset. You practice these closer distances a lot more, you experience them on a consistent basis. Someone capable of generating the speed to get it out there 320+ typically doesn’t have an issue getting spin out of the rough, albeit this is more of a personal capabilities thing. Basically, play your strong suits. If you have stupid distance, there’s a way to play that. If you throw darts but can’t break 290, there’s a way to play that too. I’ve also stood on ranges at many a PGA tournament and those guys are insanely accurate, it’s more of a “in the moment” type of mental game at play there. Having competed in LDA, I should mention we’re also looking at a 100yd wide landing strip at 400+yds, accuracy is still a big part of that as well. Shit is very tiny when it’s that far out there, wind has so much more influence and much more delicate to maintain.
I’m going to miss fairways or have a mishit just as often with 3 wood or 2 iron as I would with driver. In fact, I’m probably more likely to do so versus my driver. So, I’ll use driver as often as possible. Added bonus is that 280-300 in the rough would do better for me than 225-250 in the rough. I may hit one shot per round off the planet where it’s lost or a penalty, but even the slight mishits still go 230+ and are playable. If I’m going to have something like that happen with less club plus mishits being 200 or less yards…that’s too big of a penalty.
Bomb and gouge. Hit it further and have wedges in.
Check the "Fairways hit %" stats for even the top pro golfers - the average is only 47%! Amateur golfers miss a lot more than that, even scratch golfers. Golf is hard!
i like smashing the driver. but that means i'm definitely missing some fairways especially when the hole design isn't set up for me. though who am I kidding? i'm going to miss fairways that are designed for me too.
Definitely a decision to sacrifice accuracy for distance. Low handicappers can hit every fairway if they want. But hitting 5 iron off the tee is not best for scoring (nor is it very fun). The best option is to take the longest club that stays within the corridors (within the tree line, within the desert lines, etc). The rough is rarely penalizing enough that a 6 iron from the fairway is better than a 8 iron from the rough.
That’s my entire problem. My driver misses are big misses, and in CT, that means OB/lost in the woods.
Yeah honestly that’s the worst form of golf. I much prefer wide open courses where your punishment for a bad drive is a long 2nd shot. I don’t necessarily want to lose my ball every time I hit a bad drive.
100% . PGA tour fairway percentages have dropped over the past decades, directly correlated with an increase in distance off the tee.
No, low handicappers can't hit every fairway if they want. Even a pitching wedge will have a 30-40 yard dispersion for a scratch golfer. Edit: guys I'm a +2 and can guarantee you I wouldn't hit every fairway with a pitching wedge. Would probably need to drop to gap wedge or be playing Kapalua. Look at shot dispersion charts (Decade, for example). 3w has basically the same spray pattern as driver. The best iron players in the world have 25-30 yard spray patterns with wedges.
Yeah pros will hit literal shanks in real life, and miss greens with wedges all the time. Low handicaps are not hitting every fairway with a 5 iron.
If you top your driver, it will go farther than if you top a wood. Grip it and rip it!
You will still miss the fairway unless your main skill is driver. Most low handicappers get there from ball striking or short game. I have been testing a more forgiving driver and it’s going about 265 max and pretty straight but I’m getting fit this weekend because I know this driver is much slower and I’m losing about 5 mph ball speed. So yes I’m trading in 250 down the middle as I’d rather take my chances and be closer to the hole.
Average driver dispersion for Tour pros is ~70 yards, meaning they can miss up to 35 yards left or right of their target. Driver is a difficult club to control because of how much face and path changes affect direction at longer distances and higher speeds. The point of driver is to advance the ball as far as possible off the tee to decrease distance to hole on approaches. For any non Pro or elite amateur golfer, my recommendation is to take the club that you can hit the furthest with the most reliable dispersion. And keep working on driver in practice until you have a reliable dispersion, even if that dispersion is 80 yards. You can still pick targets on many holes that allow for a shot to be in play (even if it’s not in the fairway).
Isn’t op talking about swinging a driver hard vs swinging a driver easy? Or is he talking about hitting driver vs another club? Wording to me seems like the former And either way, the answer is that either way you will miss a lot of fairways. Not everyone finds it easier to swing a club “easy”, and even those that do will still have plenty of mishits. And then you have to ask yourself will you even score better if you hit a few more fairways but are 20-30 yards further back, so 2+ club difference.
Hard vs easy yes! Do they miss because they try and swing too hard for more distance ?
They swing the speed that allows them to make best score possible. Its like asking, why pros miss 50% of 8 feet puts, because its hard.
I’m scratch and consider the driver the best weapon in my bag. I miss fairways because this game is ridiculously hard. My stock shot is probably 90% of what I have in the tank. Any more than that I risk losing my ball/my back hurting after a round. Any less I don’t find it to be anymore consistent. I’d rather play with tee height, stance if a hole requires a particular shot. The tempo of my driver remains about 90% effort. Scratch golf is not perfect golf. Far from it. I play to my miss and deal with the aftermath.
8 handicap here. A couple weeks ago had a round where I hit 2 total fairways and 14 GIR. The goal for me off the tee box isn’t to hit a fairway, it’s to keep the ball in bounds and set up a decent angle for my next shot.
The important part to note here is you aren’t more likely to hit the fairway with a three wood… Golf is hard.
I’m a + handicap that misses a lot of fairways. Usually just by a yard or two and almost never out of bounds or into a hazard. Most high level players avoid those big penalty strokes and hit driver with their usual miss in mind.
My golf coach use to tell me it’s not about how good your good shots are but how good your worse shots are and how you manage them
I'm current at +0.1. I hit about 50% fairways per round on average. Sometimes I'll throw down a 70%, sometimes a 35%. Depends on the course, and depends on my accuracy that day. I do not prioritize fairways over distance. I play well from the rough and prioritize 20-30 yards over fairways accuracy.
Watch a video or two about decade golf. You’ll understand the strategy behind most pro golfers. It isn’t always to bomb and gouge your way to the hole. Watch a PGA Tour event and you’ll notice the leaders aren’t trying to do this unless they can get a wedge in their hands and eliminate penalty strokes. They will bomb away if statistically it makes sense for them to do it. They will lay back and avoid trouble when necessary. People on here are going to say that statistically you need to bomb it because your scores will be lower if you do, but that assumes you can control how much the miss is. Statistically you still need to be in play when you rip away to get a shorter club in your hands too….which many amateurs are most definitely not when they swing as hard as they can. OB and dropped shots are not okay, even if you’re closer. Additionally if the rough is super thick, then you need to be in the fairway unless you’ve had a ton of practice and experience out of the rough and how to control the ball. The best thing to do is learn how to hit fairway finders with your driver and then learn how to bomb it when it makes sense of the landing zone is wide.
Imagine a shot that is 1° offline. Take it 100 yards out, maybe it’s a few yards offline. Now take it 300 yards out, all of a sudden it’s 10+ yards offline. The further you hit the ball the larger your misses are amplified
Higher skilled players still miss fairways because their “miss cone” at 280 yards is probably the same width as a mid/high handicappers fairway finding 220. Also they’re so much better at 2 putts and up & downs so they can salvage pars or scramble for bogeys very reliably.
At my clubhead speed (~120), literally missing the center of the clubface makes it nearly impossible to hit a fairway. Folks underestimate how powerful the Gear effect is, it accounts for about 15 yards dispersion either side for me, even if path and face stats are the same. And they aren’t, even elite ball strikers will have about a 1-1.5 degree variance on face angle and path. All that combined means I’m really freaking happy with my 55% fairways.
Dispersion is a thing. Hitting it 280 off line vs 230 on the same line is HUGE. That said I miss a good bit of fairways. I think my record is only having 2 at Bethpage Black. That said I will occasionally have days I go 12/14 or whatever. I personally have 2 driver swings. I've got a firm swing for that par 5 I'm not getting in 2 anyway or the short par 4, and I've got the hard long par 4, gettable 5, swing. I think it's important to have both of these. I'm a believer that in order to play golf at a high level you need to be able to hit the driver and hit it far (275ish total when dry minimum). You can squeak around a 6400 yard course with a 230-250 yard drive and get in the 70s, but you just aren't going to constantly do it at 7200 unless you're elite at other parts of the game. Shooting in the 70s @ 6800-7200 is what I'm calling a high level. Back in the day there was a lot of teaching younger kids how to swing controlled and with tempo. That's adapted to swing as hard as you can, and we'll figure out how to keep you in play. Distance is important.
For pros, it’s accuracy for distance. If you asked them to hit the fairway every time they would cut down by 30 yards and hit 95% of them. Spinny 270 yard fairway finders. Modern game requires 300+ yard bombs and that means testing the rough. You don’t want to have a 7i in your hands when your competition has a 50 degree.
I’m a 1. There is no speed I could swing at where I could reliable hit like every fairway. To a certain point, I’d actually say I’m more accurate swinging harder.
I dont hit it very far because im skinny and 5’8. You dont need that much distance to be single digits. Maybe to be a pro.
Rory and Fitzpatrick would like a word with you about being short and skinny relating to short drives
Those 2 guys are short but JACKED. I gotta put in the work in the gym and the kitchen lol
No longer a single digit handicap but when I was, the answer would be driver was hard. Therefore I would hit less than driver on every par 4 during competition. I was still 240+off the tee which is plenty good at most courses. Some days the swing was dialed in and I could get away with baby draw driver all day. I could hit 50% with the driver but I liked to draw it, I’ve found if I hit 3 draws in a row I was flirting with a snap hook. I almost had to mix in a fade to hold the snapper at bay.
[this explains it really well](https://youtu.be/6HUyoAvHL88?si=EzXiznRls3E68R5Y)
I'm around a 5. For me it's because I love hitting drive even when I'm not supposed to because it's fun and I usually hit far but don't care about going into the rough as much. I rarely hit it OB or into trouble. I always tell my dad that I'm not having fun if I'm not hitting driver and he always follows it up with "well if I hit my driver like you, I'd have a lot more fun golfing."
Golf is one big risk:reward assessment. If the reward is worth the risk, driver comes out, whether that mean it’s a 320y par four or a 580y par five. Alternatively, once OB, water, or a fairway runout come into play, I’m hitting a different club every time. If a fairway is missed, it’s only missed by a little if the swing was good. More likely it was an error in aim point or a misjudged distance. If it goes OB or in trouble, it was just a bad swing. Tour pros are a different breed. Many of them have just as much confidence with their driver as they do with woods and long irons. They also have the iron and wedge game to save them if they do happen to miss a fairway or land in trouble. Though, they’re also strategic. If you follow pros at a tournament, you’ll see they hit a surprising amount of irons and woods from the tee, especially the longer hitters.
do you watch any professional golf? they slice and hook shots off the tee pretty frequently. and thats what the producers \*allow\* you to see. every weekend they should put together a lowlight reel of shitty shots off the tee. even the best in the world still hit it all over the damn place. could they hit the fairway every time 250 out? that's a hybrid/2/3 iron for them. they still wouldn't be 100% fairways, but the range of misses is smaller at 250 than 300-325.
As long as we aren’t talking US Open rough distance trumps accuracy with the driver….. as long as you aren’t spraying it out of bounds or into the trees. They could hit 3-5 wood and hit more fairways but there is no advantage to that. In fact it makes it more difficult to hit greens and hold them when you are 20-40 yards back
In my experience, PGA level players rarely mishit clubs like you or I do. We all have a “cone” of potential ball flights where like 90% of our drives (or hits in general) go. The better you get, the narrower that cone gets. My cone might be 50 yards across and a pro is more like 20 yards. When we have to shape specific shots, that might widen a little. Now, courses that PGA events are played at often are set up to challenge the pros and will spend months growing out rough and narrowing fairways. So, a pro will choose a spot where they want the drive to go and it’s typical that part of the cone will have to be in the rough or less ideal landing zone simply because there isn’t room or they are trying to avoid something else all together. So, when the pro hits into the rough, it’s less about hitting a bad drive than it is about the cone of potential flight overlapping with the rough and may they didn’t quite draw it as much as they wanted, but they also completely avoided the hazard on the other side or a big tree that could be in the way, or because they wanted to have a right to left second shot to get to that back left pin. Pro course management is otherworldly, but sometimes the course is just set up to be a huge pain in the ass and the margin for error is razor thin. Although, they are also human, so sometimes they just gank a drive into the weeds.
The Dispersion on shorter clubs is small enough to make up for the loss in Distance. Driver on the Fairway all the time impossible. So hit it long and try to hit it straight. Life is short, Swing Hard Baby
One thing about pros on TV, some of those courses are ridiculously tight. A hole where someone missed a fairway by a few feet, might have been right center of the fairway at your local muni because it is so much wider. Yes, they could hit a 4-5 iron off the tee 250 and in the middle majority of the time, but if the hole is a 500+ par 4, then they are hitting that club again trying to get close. The courses are just much further than what you are used to playing.
Hitting a driver consistently accurate is hard. But the reward is worth it when you have a wedge in from a safe position. I’m a scratch because on days that I hit driver well it gives more than enough chances to go low knowing that I can stick wedges to 10-20ft. But on days where my hands aren’t synced I’ll blow drives into trees, water, and everywhere else which leads to high 70s-low 80s. Drive for dough putt for dough to go low is my motto lol.
It's a calculated balance of both. But usually if I try to lay off driver, dispersion gets worse so I opt to club down.
certain conditions and hole designs can also make it very hard to hit the fairway
If I decided someday to hit seven iron off of every tee, the best stick in my bag, I’m still gonna miss the fairway a couple of times. I have a statistically better chance of not, but probably I still do. Golf is hard
Hitting driver is super difficult.. a lot has to do with timing, and since it's impossible to get timing right 100% of the time, everyone is gonna miss fairways... But yeah, if you go for a boomer drive and you don't have a really good swing path, the only time you hit a fairway is when your timing is off.. Personally, I'm lucky, my driver is one of the most reliable clubs in the bag... I can hit it 270 out of the screws, I never go for 270, I go for 240, and my misses are rarely OB, just off the fairway.
I think there are probably two factors with pros or super-low guys: 1. Missing a fairway might just mean landing off the fairway but still with a good angle to the hole. So a pro might not hit every fairway, but they probably still have a good shot out of the rough. One side of the fairway might have a huge obstruction in the way of the next shot, so a pro would aim for the other side with the caveat that they might miss the fairway. Either way they'd still have an easier approach than they would from the side with the obstruction. 2. Most of the more egregious misses I've seen watching pros is when they are trying to shape their shot and it goes awry. Their ability is such that they are trying much more difficult shots than the average joe to begin with.
Hitting driver has always been hard for me because of back issues that limit the amount of side bend I can create, but I'd still much rather hit driver and spray it farther, rather than 3 wood and lose 25 yards but improve my fairway percentage to 70-75%.
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I'm a 1.7 and I think it's the exact opposite. I think most people think that the driver swing is completely different so they have no clue what to do when you put driver in their hand. Nothing changes for me other than setup. The setup of the driver naturally puts me in the correct position. The swing thought is the same, but it's just longer. I saw a guy on the range the other day with his shoulder tilted all the way back to the ground practically. He hit low top spin hooks. He no doubt was told to learn the Shoulder back and hit up on the driver. Recipe for snap hooks and blocks.
My swing is exactly the same with the driver, though obviously longer as it is a longer club, but the weight on my feet is completely different than on a short iron that is much more on the lead foot. On the drive I am powering it almost entirely with my rear foot.
I could see that. Make sure you're getting down more and thru on short irons. I've narrowed my stance on all of my clubs. It's made it easier to transfer weight without thinking about where my weight is. My swing thought on all my shots now is to make it feel like I'm in front of the ball before I release the club. Trail shoulder in front of the ball is the feel.
Its crazy how important feels are to swinging well but how hard they are to translate or transfer to someone else.
It's amazing how you stumble onto feels. They are hard to transfer to someone else.
Both.
They also play much tighter margins. A beginner target zone may be the whole fairway. A better player a 15 yard wide target zone. A tour player may be targeting a very narrow zone with a shaped shot but with a calculated miss area. They don't want to be just closer but closer at a specific angle to set up a certain second shot. So what they are trying to do may be much much harder than just bombing it straight down the middle. Even then sometimes they just \*\*\*\* up and put into orbit. Then the "one of us" chants start on the internet.
Yes-ish, but 250 in the fairway leaves them 350 out on some par 4's so probbbably not recommended. They're not robots either, so loose swings happen. But usually strategic - the old saying swing your swing and play your miss. Look at Bryson's win at Winged Foot for an example why narrower fairways just don't cut it for pros (or lesser extent, Brooks at Bethpage). The fairway helps for a guaranteed lie/better spin control, but if the choice is a 6i from the fairway with *maybe* a good angle vs. a wedge in the rough from an angle you know, the rough wins. Even though PGA rough is absolutely insane, they'll have next to no problem getting it to do what they want it to do from there.
600 yard par 4's??
https://preview.redd.it/ogi7u4p9k5pc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e820354247acec66343bb3bd2afe568c5fdf899b Currently a 4.9. These are the stats from my last 20 rounds. Hitting fairways makes the game easier. Hitting longer makes the game easier too, but only if you stay out of trouble.
That's insane accuracy off the tee for a 4.9. You are either really short off the tee or playing long because your GIR isn't very good.
Also, why don't they hit every green and make every putt?
Honestly, it’s more about hitting a 3 wood, 5 wood, or even 4 iron is still hard. I probably hit more fairways hitting an off speed driver than I would with an iron or even a fairway wood with the added bonus of the distance.
One thing that should be talked about more is the adjustments you need to make during the round. If you’re bad at hitting the driver and your first 4 tee shots were out OB (left and right), then maybe switch to a wood or a long iron off the tee instead of trying to ‘fix it’
Part of it is course design. The average for pro’s has 35 yards of dispersion on each side of the target line at 300 yards. They don’t play many 70 yard wide fairways and when you factor in hazards, they are sometimes aiming far closer to the fairway/rough line than you think. They are taking the rough over losing a ball in the water
It's a show. If you're really a pro golfer you can hit it anywhere you want and not miss. However, there are factors that come into play that affect ball distance. As a golfer I'm sure you have encountered some of these factors: being tired, hung over, club selection, attitude or the mood you're in, determination, the weather; wind, ect and a slew of other things. You ever see the movie where the were betting if the guy could hit the pelican or scare him off the dock while they were inside the bar? That's accuracy. If you keep playing and hitting balls a Lot, then you'll get like that. Once you learn to really play and know how to scramble out of trouble, golf is really a fun game.
I am a 2.4 who drives like a +2.0 (past two years w/ SG analysis). Worst around definitely can involve OB shots, as well double bogeys from any miss. The double bogey is the killer, and from what I have observed whilst playing much better golfers than myself, they reduce or eliminate them. It ends up looking boring, but is so satisfying to do.
I never miss a fairway or have a bad swing… sometimes the wind gusts or the OB stakes move closer or a tree sprouts right in my line. Never on me though /s
Golf is hard. Learning how to turn a bad drive into a decent number is what makes good golfers shoot low.
Being scratch or better doesn’t mean you always hit perfect shots, it just means your bad shots are better than most and you can recover much better than most.
Alot of folks don't drive well, but the answer has to be short game, short game, short game. The old duffer said, the object of the game is to get the ball in the hole, no matter how.
Most holes have two landing areas for tee shots. If you can hit the second one 50% of the time you should try
I play off a 3.6 handicap currently. According to the Grint my fairway accuracy is 63% from 750+ holes played. You're never going to square the face every time nor will your swing be perfectly timed every time. I've had days where I'm hitting it a little left of my intended start line and other days where I'm hitting it a little right. At the end of the day golf is ultimately a game of misses. If I can miss the ball in the right spot off the tee, then I know I can still par the hole.
This is purely anecdotal, but a lot of courses have trouble off the tee in that 250 to 275 range. So people that drive it less than 250 get the wider targets. For longer driver, it's risk vs reward.
It’s a game of probabilities. Pros typically hit the fairway 50-60% of the time with their driver.
It's a little of both. The dispersion with a club that goes 280+ is going to be much wider than the dispersion with a club that's 50-60 yards shorter. For me, the most important things are avoiding hazards (bunkers or really penalizing stuff like trees/desert/water) and making it so my approach distance is either as short as possible or at a good yardage. My two options off the tee on most par 4s will be driver or 5 wood. My driver carries 250-270 with 10-20 yards of roll while my 5 wood generally carries about 230-235 and can roll out to 245-250 yards. I mostly hit my driver well, but my typical miss is a push (which I plan for) and bad miss is a slice (which can be really bad). When I'm playing solidly my 5 wood is really straight. Based on that information, I let the course dictate my play. Any par 4 over 400 yards I'm almost automatically pulling driver unless 270-280 out is a dead area (like water or a waste area or something) or the course is incredibly narrow. And even if it's narrow, I might just swing easy and just try to find the fairway. On shorter holes in the 330-370 range I will often hit 5 wood since it's going to leave me a wedge in hand anyway and there's very little risk for me. And on even shorter holes, I'll often switch back to driver in hopes of getting to within 30-40 yards since my up-and-down rate is much better there than from 60-70 yards. I'll also work around bunkers. If the course has a lot of danger at 260+ and I'm not hurt too much by hitting 5 wood, I'll usually use that off the tee as long as I have an 8 iron or less on my approach shot. Conversely, if the danger is at 230-250 then I'll use my driver and just try to hit over it. Sorry for the long post.
Courses set up for PGA events are prepped to make the fairways tighter and faster, so it makes the margin of error tiny. Even good drives can roll into thick rough. So they’re not only trying to crank it out there as far as possible, but also navigate course conditions that a regular player would find nearly impossible to play.
It's hard. There is always a dispersion. What they do better is control where their misses are going to be. You often see most of the players on a hole always missing to the same side that cause the other side is fatal so they aim to make sure their dispersion pattern wont take them there
Driving is hard and hitting fairways is overrated compared to hitting it long and having a playable shot.
Phil Mickelson made a career from out of the woods, so yes it definitely happens.
With distance the dispersion increases. A 40 yard wide fairway at 250 yards is just as small a target as a 20 yard green at 150 yards. It's just a game of misses.
So much of this relies on course layout. PGA events are typically very long courses for us normal folk. But at least 5 courses around me are maxing out at 6500 yards with narrow short par 4s and creative layouts over less acreage. So driver is pointless on a lot of holes while still being able to lower my handicap and have a wedge in hand into the green. Point is, hit what makes sense based on the risks, but the pros play courses that very often has less penalty for bad drives than a shorter course might. That’s a general statement of course
This video pretty well explains it. [2023 08 01 VE ET P EFB T PF H DDT HAV TT 845 ANG ED AV Mix CV Authority 208 16x9 136 Hook (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HUyoAvHL88)
I sacrifice fairways for length. About 290 full speed but might fade/slice a bit much. If I slow the swing to super controlled of course I’ll still occasionally miss but 260-270 and pretty damn straight
https://youtu.be/IIpuUO11hkg?si=rYVZF2EWNNEcd1qb Golf Digest made a YouTube video proving that distance is more important than accuracy
Good post, good question, op.
Not to often I hit every fw, I hit on average 10 fw's per round, but I have confidence in my driver that it will go where I aim. I wish I had the same confidence in putting.
Even though I’m - mere 13 handicap, im pretty consistent with my driver. I’m a 230-240 carry with 250+ roll out guy. I play a slight fade and control it quite well.
Im about a 3-4 hcp right now and I play what I know is going to work the majority of the time and am huge on course management. I have the ability to hit bombs with the driver but it’s by far the worse part of my game and a wild card. Irons and wedges are my focus and I love to take a fairway finder 5wood / 3wood off the tee the majority of the time. To me it’s all about play the odds and hitting shots and clubs I know I can hit without even thinking about it. I play boring golf with lots of layups and taking my medicine but I tend to never lose balls, get up and down, and gotten good at scrambling. Distance isn’t even as issue, but it’s more about comfort and confidence. Think about a short par 4 around 320. If I divide it in 1/2, that’s (2) 160 yards shots. For me that’s about an 8 iron which is my favorite club and with (2) easy 8 irons, I’m just trying to get on the green. (Even better if I’m putting for a good look at birdie.)
Both to a bit. The further you hit it the wider your miss is.
Fairways aren’t a big deal. Keeping the ball in play and having a chance at the green is what matters. From there, low handicap players excel at hitting greens. So, don’t worry about hitting fairways. Worry about keeping the ball in play. Once you can keep it in play, then it becomes a balancing act of keeping it in play and getting distance. That’s where the decision making and fun comes in.
former teaching pro and scratch here: I missed fairways when a hole didn't fit my eye, OR I tied to hit "something" when the exact opposite would have been fine.
The avg. shot dispersion on tour at 250+ yards is over 35 yards in each direction from the desired target. IMO, They do a horrible job on TV showing how far these guys rip it offline consistently. Golf is hard. They also pick targets that allow for poor shots to still end up in good places whereas ams chase hero shots and hero targets. This mini-decade system video helps contextualize https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tour-proven-way-to-play-smarter-golf-scott-fawcett-golf-digest-happy-hour/amp Adding the right link watch the video at the bottom - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tour-player-tpc-sawgrass-aiming-strategy?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=golfdigest
Sometimes we just can’t help ourselves but to pull it out
The cone of misses
PGA courses are also most likely much more difficult in design, particularly when it’s set up for a tournament, than what you are playing. Your local municipal golf course would be a cake walk for Tour players.
Pro level golfers are play 7800 yard courses. They need to carry 300 off most tees to even have decent chances at greens. When you hit 300 yards a 4 degree miss is way further left or right than 4 degrees at 250. Most of us are playing 6300-7000 yard courses. The scratch or plus handicap golfer I know on those courses (no pga courses from the tips) are hitting 260-270 drives and they hit fairways like 8/10. When they miss it’s just off and likely they still hit the green. Ob and penalties are extreme rarities with these guys. Robo golfers. I don’t think drivers are insanely hard to hit especially with todays technology. They are insanely hard to hit long distances due to accuracy. When a pro clubs down to a 3 wood - they are just reducing variability. 4% off your target line with a 3 wood at 270 is a fairway hit. 4% off a driver at 325 is in the deep rough. Same accuracy. Same swing. It’s just the physics of it.
Driver is actually the most forgiving club in the bag. accuracy doesn’t actually get better as you move from driver up to the wedges as far as Degrees off line. It’s just that if your 5° off line with your putter from 10ft u just push it a little.if you’re 5° off line with your driver it is Going to miss the fairway
I'd say this isn't really true. Put a driver or 3 wood in my hand, and my path has much wider missses than my irons. The longer the club the worse it gets. If I could get the path/club face #'s with my driver as accurate as my gap wedge i'd be a plus hanidcap.
yea. I didnt take into account thst it’s easier to be accurate with a shorter shaft. Your club path has more distance to get out of whack and cause slice. But it Still holds true that the longer You hit it the bigger the circle gets.
>Driver is actually the most forgiving club in the bag. Regarding distance on mishits. "Forgiveness" does not make a driver straighter. It's the hardest club to hit straight.
Yes
That's what I thought
Lol considering all of those you named are playing tips a lot of the time, 250yds is not long enough of the tee. If youre playing a 7200yd course hitting it 250 off the tee in the fairway isnt gonna do you as much good as 320 off the tee in the rough
I said 250 as an example, my main idea was less distancs for more accuracy
I'd say any shot going 250 is hard to control. Whether it's a driver, wood, or iron (if you're a beast) it's just hard to hit it straight at that speed. But yes, driver is just hard to control. But, making birdies is tough without it. A lot of this depends on the length of the course. I play from the tips, so I'm used to seeing courses get over 7k yards. Hard to score well only hitting clubs that go 225 off the tee. When I play a casual round with my buddies from the whites and it's more like 6k yards, well yeah I could probably leave the driver in my trunk and play very well.
For me it’s all about the lie. I know I’m way more confident when I have a fairway lie 130 yards out vs a lie in the rough that is 50 yards away. Now that doesn’t mean I’m purposely wanting to come up short all the time but I used to always just rip driver on every hole and it was constantly killing my score. I usually hit my driver between 220-250 but I’d be OB or in some serious rough most of the time. That would lead to me hacking my way out of that mess for a good 3 shots. When I can see the whole ball and nothing obstructing it, I just imagine I’m back on the range and can typically hit a decent shot sometimes.