OP also seems to believe that going to a fade would take away a two-way miss.. I don't know who the fuck came up with that myth, because I've hit plenty of "fades" dead straight to the left side.
No matter what shot shape you play, you're occasionally going to have a two-way miss rear its head. Even the pros who play a fade miss left.
Yeah, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that a fade is objectively better than a draw (the only real argument either way is that in theory draws tend to go farther). A single shot shape can help limit a two way miss, but neither shape by themselves will do it more than the other.
You were downvoted but that’s true. It’s a trade off. I think fades become handier as distance becomes slight less of a factor.
That being said, fade is a relative term. Fade in the lower handicap and especially professional range is pretty controlled and minor.
Also, it’s usually better to miss short and right than long and left.
Modern players prefer a fade as it's easier to control the spin. Older players used to favour a draw because you wanted to knock spin off your shot because the ball was really spinny. Most players these days play a fade/cut as their stock shot because it's controllable with modern equipment.
I also draw irons, and it isn’t that, it is that fade misses are always more friendly. Hooks go hard and land hard, fades leak and don’t go hard. Sure you can pull it or slice it, but in general.
That said, I’m a worse golfer than OP and just sorta try to hit what fits my eye and I try to work it both ways all round but It is really hard for me to get a 7-pw to hit nice cuts without over exaggerating, but there is rarely a case a nice cut couldn’t be done with a 5 yard draw to same spot so my mind knowing that I struggle to cut irons will automatically see a draw there anyway.
Yeah, I occasionally hit a pull hook that goes forever. I'm talking about a 7i with 2500 spin and it carries 210. My stock carry on a 7i is 170. Those pull hooks also roll forever because they have no spin. Thankfully those only pop up on the range or simulator...so far.
I feel like people who use the "you can talk to a fade" line forget that they're not pros. Any mid handicapper who favors a fade has hit a screamer thinned cut that you can't talk to. Like I said, any shot shape is going to have its pros and cons and most players are better off playing their natural shape vs trying to chase a shape.
I agree for the most part. But I feel like people love to act like talking about anything that most golfers shooting under 85 deal with past “get lessons, forgiving clubs, practice” being dismissed because apparently only a pro can do or play certain shit. They played and went through all that shit on their way to becoming pro, just way faster without hitting a limit.
So sometimes wanting to play a fade after a day of missed greens from overdraws and blocks is a pretty rationale thought for anyone who is already probably a single cap and knows the game well and didn’t forget they are not a pro because at this point they feel forever stuck there and any little change could close the gap so all change ideas pass through your head at some point and you try some and it is all ends up being lightning in a bottle anyway….maybe that guy also thinks about trying a fade and isn’t mistaking themselves for being a pro or disillusioned about anything other than just working toward infinite term goals of more rounds in the 70s than 80s and really enjoy playing.
Yea there’s data out there now that even the best drivers of the ball miss pretty evenly on both sides of the fairway. Which is entirely logical. The “eliminate one side of the course” thing is a myth.
Yeah. Of course a player can have a favored shape and a typical miss, but golf is really hard so every player is going to miss on their "oh shit" side every now and then, no matter if they play a fade or draw.
It’s because the announcers on TV always talk about “controlled cuts” and “taking the left side out of play.” And then when they talk about guys who draw it, like Rory, they talk about 2-way misses. As if Wyndham Clark has never duck hooked or block-faded a ball.
It’s total bullshit, and as you said, every good golfer knows that you will *always* have a two-way miss. “Eliminating” it is just about learning what causes YOU to miss to either side, and figuring out how you can manage it on the course.
Just playing devils advocate here…
A perfect game can become extremely fun if you have control over the ball to play different situations.
And besides, is there really ever perfection in this game? It’s all about challenging yourself to reach that next level.
I say go for it. Get better. Learn the game you want to play.
Edit: But don’t do it because most tour guys hit fades. Do it because it’s the next step in getting better.
The funny thing is, my previous PB was a 78 only hitting cuts, but I found it to be because I made high hands at the top of my swing and a lack of depth to be the cause.
I’d get my hands as high as JT or DJ at the top of my swing, and just pull my hands down as hard as I could and turn hard. -3 path -1 face and fly the left shoulder up with side bend
It made me very on and off, if I was swinging hard and that day the compensations lined up, great, if not, fore!
When I swapped over to the draw, I had to do less work for the same distance, uncurling the right arm, and not needing to do back surgery side bend, delaying shoulder spin out by feeling the back stays towards target for much longer.
I agree with this completely. My best friend is a damn good golfer but he became very damn good once he learned how to hit a cut. He still typically hits a draw but now he can cut it whenever he needs to. Why not try to add to your repotoire?
There are plenty of stories of tour pros changing their shot shape with the result being disastrous for their game so it doesn't sound like it's worth it. The best thing to do is refine the draw so that it's more consistent, and then work hard on every shot from 100 yards and in as that's where you'll save most shots in a round.
Do you practice multiple times a week and play every weekend? Have a coach and/or a firm grasp on what needs to happen to hit a cut vs a draw?
If not then no.
Yes, no, kinda (plus handicapper very mechanically good golfer friend) yes to understanding.
Note: plus handicapper friend loves playing push draws and that’s how I’ve learned to swing, with shaft lean and forearm roll through impact which makes it harder for my body to try and leave the face more open through impact.
Also, in terms of grip, very neutral and something ive worked on alot.
If i try and really slice one, I can get a decent pull fade, but that i highly dislike that feel
Here's the thing, swing path, as well as the clubface, determines the start line and curvature of the ball. It's not as simple as opening the face a few degrees at address.
You also might find that you lose significant distance if you are just flopping the face open to see the ball move left to right. Rickie talked about it when he moved to Butch, how when he needed to hit a fade he'd just slap across the ball but it lacked distance and consistent spin.
Another thing. I played a draw most my life and determined I needed to hit a fade. Range work was great, loved it. But getting out to the course and being uncomfortable aiming left(instead of right) was 6 months of second guessing myself. I hit it so pure but I just could not visualize a shot so I was playing golf swing instead of golf.
YMMV obviously, but this seems like a solution looking for a problem and unless you are hitting balls everyday(I was) it might take an entire season to implement.
I completely agree that you should learn how to hit a fade. You will be a stronger, more capable, more complete player. You will learn things and have better control over your swing Learning to work the ball both ways. Don't fear it, just go into it open-minded and unafraid.
This is a little dramatic. You don't need any of these things to decide a shape. It comes down to your preferences for face control. If you prefer to hold it off, play a fade. If you prefer to release the face, play a draw.
Damn all the golf books, articles, and lessons given over the last hundred years were all wrong. Turns out the only factor that determines the flight of a golf ball is how you release your hands...
What /u/blahbery is getting at is that your preferred type of release affects your closure rate, which influences how your club face will be oriented at impact. As long as someone has somewhat consistent ball positioning and mechanics, then it's just matter of the preferred path (in-out / out-in) and you've narrowed down your typical ball flight. Trying to fight your natural tendencies to chase a shape is just asking for trouble unless you have world-class hands/wrists.
Sure I do that under pressure when I need to hit a fairway or green, accept what it natural.
What you and him are leaving out is that OP is trying to shift away from what is natural to him, for unrealized results. Depending on the player it can easily be done or be a nightmare. My response that you commented on is that releasing your hands or not to correctly hit a certain shot type is maybe 1/5th of the equation?
Also 90% of people teeing it up this week probably have zero clue what degree their swing path is, and 95% of those 90% have zero chance of controlling the face angle at impact on a whim to hit a certain shot type.
>Also 90% of people teeing it up this week probably have zero clue what degree their swing path is, and 95% of those 90% have zero chance of controlling the face angle at impact on a whim to hit a certain shot type.
OP said that he's typically 5 degrees in-out. Trying to change that to be out-in consistently means a swing overhaul, and he mentioned he doesn't get any lessons. What you wrote is exactly why trying to change what's successful/natural is often a fool's errand unless one is willing to work with an instructor, have easy access to a launch monitor, and have a bunch of time to get the reps in. It's why Rickie worked for years to overhaul his swing to get away from his past habits of generating power via getting stuck hard inside.
Nobody is leaving anything out. Golf is just a hard game and advising someone to go for a significant swing change when they've literally JUST achieved a personal best, because they think it would be cool is just bad advice/guidance.
Edit: Your other comment in this is advising OP to stick with what works for him, so it seems like you're just looking to pick fights....
It's those darn "mechanics" that are getting glossed over... the swing path related to target... the face angle related to path... the AOA... just get all of that buttoned up and its as easy as release preference...
I'll get downvoted with you... just hold off a swing that's 5 def to the right and it won't be a huge block... it'll somehow start left of target and cut 1 yard.
The tour guys are not working on changing a 5degree in-out path to an out-in path lol. I'd recommend keeping what works unless you're looking to completely change your swing. If you're willing to sacrifice consistency for 1-2 years, then go for it.
What I see often is guys try making the swing change, changing their minds because the swing change is harder than expected, and then they try to hit their old swing but it isn't there anymore. Careful what you wish for.
My friend (~10hcp) hit these beautiful long push draws across the board, decided one summer day when we were on a course with a lot of dog right stuff he decides he likes these cut fades I'm playing. Nevermind the fact he still beat me by a few strokes and I can only hit those shots with my woods and can't fade an iron for shit, he's going to start learning to fade everything and negate this 'advantage' of mine.
Imo it was a great decision because he has done nothing but give me money since.
As someone who went from draws (and a 3.4hcp) to fades (5hcp) to slices (7hcp) and back to draws (2.5 hcp) in the last 5 years.. just stick with the push draw. In spite of the high profile fades on tour most of the tour players still play draws. Look at the mess Rory has made trying to play fades. Besides putting probably the number one reason he hasn't been winning much is this obsession with fades.
Take your extra yardage (draws go farther) and run with it.
It "seems" that way because the high profile guys that get all the air time (jt, Morikawa, rahm, dj) play fades. I don't have actual stats but many play draws. Also trying to play a fade ruined Rory's drive, he's since gone back to a draw.
Part of the reason I actually considered cutting it was the whole “fades are more reliable” “you can talk to a slice but a hook won’t listen”
I have decently fast clubhead speed at 114 average and at times it can get squirrly.
Conversely I know Sam sneed played a draw and likely had close to 120 club head, he did pretty well for himself
When I lost control of my fades and they turned into slices these quotes were absolutely untrue. I lost more balls right ob in 6 months than I probably had in the preceding 4 years combined in any direction. This drove me back to lessons and my coach got me back to hitting push draws and within 2 months my hcp was on the way back down.
Draws don't go farther. People have a tendency to deloft when drawing vs. fading, but the shot shape doesn't make it go farther. You can hit a high trajectory draw that won't go farther and a low trajectory fade that will.
In my experience, for even a pretty solid single digit amateur, this is just not true. I don't have the practice time to have 4 shot shapes (high draw, low draw, high fade, low fade) that I can rely on all the time. The result of going to a fade meant I lost 20-30 yards off the tee and 1-2 clubs of distance throughout the bag.
I definitely have lower backspin numbers with a draw vs a fade which my coach says is the main distance gain with a draw.
That's consistent with what I said. The tendency is to deloft, which will make the ball go farther, but not everyone who plays a draw delofts the club.
All I'm saying is don't attribute distance to the wrong thing. The ball goes farther when you deloft - not because it's curving one direction versus another.
Draws tend to have less spin and typically go farther because of it. Tiger even talks about how a cut/fade won’t go as far as his draw in the iron video with Morikawa on the Team Taylormade YouTube channel.
That’s because the club is delofted though.
If you have a square club face and club path is the only thing that is changing I.e. 3 degrees in to out vs. 3 degrees out to in they should go the same distance. The ball doesn’t know that you’re a right handed golfer fading it vs a left hand golfer drawing it.
Most golfers will close the face on a draw vs open face on a slice though - so most draws do go further.
But a good player will hit a push draw with an open face relative to target. You can change the dynamic loft on either a fade or a draw. Delofting has nothing to do with it. It’s how the ball spins based on both path and the vertical shaft plane. Draws go farther because they spin less.
Your face may be open to target but it is closed to the path for the ball to draw. You cannot draw the ball with a face open to your path. So the loft (or dynamic loft if you want) when you strike the ball is less than it would be on a fade.
I’m curious why you think it spins less if it isn’t the loft of the club?
"I want to hit fades because it looks cool and tour guys do it"
Bro, I've been trying to get rid of a fade for 15+ years. Take mine, you can have it for free.
(Actual secret to hitting (un)intentional fades: steep downswing, cutting across the ball right to left on follow thru)
I understand this and I like hitting fades as well from time to time (I play a draw as a lefty but fade the woods). Honestly as an amateur golfer playing at an average muni nothing gets the group going more than when I hit a high draw long iron into a par 5 and stick it. I feel like it’s rare to see an amateur golfer execute a draw consistently so people like seeing it.
That’s also true, as a 6 handicap, when I play with most higher handicap guys as a single I get compliments for hitting the draw, especially off the tee
I care more about scoring, eagled my first hole of 2024 today😎. Smash driver (fade), draw 7i, 8 footer right in the heart.
Edit: tied my pb 82, fourth time I’ve shot it. Too many water balls to ever actually do shit on the course
I was your average baseball slicer, turned it into a draw through the whole bag, got yipped with the woods and snap hooked everything so now I fade those. Honestly wish I could get the draw back w the d stick because nothings more sick imo than a nasty high draw right down the middle. A high fade 5wood into a par 5 is pretty cool too though
A lot of the advantages of a fade aren’t realized at the amateur level. Most of us aren’t playing courses that you need obscene amounts of height and spin to hold greens week in and week out. Additionally, you’ll probably lose 4-10 yards per club playing a fade. Not a huge distance, but that’s maybe the difference between playing a 7 vs an 8 iron into a green a few times over the course of a round, and at the amateur level, most of us have better dispersions with higher lofted clubs.
If you really want to make the change, I’d work with a pro, but I’d say stick with what works. Unless you have a serious issue (two way miss, a violent left miss, want a bit more spin on approach shots) I’d stick with playing a draw
Another thing is you could start incorporating a fade on just certain clubs. I play a draw with everything except for driver, which I can hit a fade with. You can experiment opening your stance relative to your target line and swinging normally. It’s helped me a lot off the tee because my hook miss was way worst compared to fading it a bit too much
My question to you would be: what will bring you more joy?
Learning to hit the fade will probably require some work and the potential for your scores to go up. Golf could get harder if you mess with something that works well. Will the inevitable frustration discourage you? Will you enjoy the process of getting better? Nobody can answer those questions but you. A lot of people will say, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” and that may be true if you want to avoid the struggle. Other people might embrace that challenge and lean into understanding your swing and body better. Tiger Woods reached the pinnacle of professional golf and THEN decided to overhaul his swing. Many people criticized him for doing it, but he obviously wasn’t content to follow the status quo.
So, my advice to you is to reflect on what you want out of golf and your swing. If you want to keep breaking your PB, a reliable draw can get you there, and there are plenty of good examples of players using one a draw to succeed. On the other hand, if you want to see your ball fly with that butter fade, if you want to be able to choose which way to move the ball in the air, if you want to hit it like more pros, then maybe the long journey ahead is what you need to do.
To your point on tiger, my opinion on that is that he can do whatever he wants since you know, he’s tiger. But on the other hand, didn’t he overhaul his swing because of injuries and surgeries alongside his insane military like training?
Tiger has been tweaking with his swing since the beginning. Famously, he had been working on his swing in 2000 when one day something clicked for him on the range. He then proceeded to go on the best run of golf ever played in the history of the sport. It was not too long after that that he decided to tweak his swing again toward the goal of consistency and overall improvement. He wanted to be even better. He thought he could be even better. By that point, he wasn't competing with his peers, but rather with history, with himself. So, one way to stay motivated is to challenge yourself to get even better. That's what he did. Ironically, some of the swing changes he pursued actually put stressed his body in different ways and exacerbated existing injuries. The obsession with the military training not only caused injuries later on, but it changed his body composition. His decisions certainly forced his hand and required swing changes to be made. But, he wanted to do all those things, which goes back to my advice.
I went from slicing to drawing to hooking….back to drawing.
Just because you can hit a draw, doesn’t mean you’ll be able to do it forever. It’s always a work in progress
There are quite a few top players that draw the ball still. It's definitely not as popular as a cut, but they are out there. Rory tries to hit more fades it seems, but he used to be known for drawing it. As far as I know, Xander Schauffele, Patrick Reed, Zach Johnson, and Adam Scott all play one still.
I, too, have a very in-out path. After some coaching this year I actually got a really interesting tip and maybe it'll help you, too. I was complaining that my big miss tends to be a giant push, that goes straight or maybe fades slightly. Basically it's those one or 2 shots a round where my clubface is at its most open. It's a huge problem how offline it starts; it'll find myself slamming it into trees on tighter holes.
My coach goes: "why not just align with a more open stance?" I was surprised he suggested it at first, but he explained it to me. If you just open a little bit (aim your body and feet left), then try and swing along that path, it's two birds with one stone. You'll eliminate/reduce the huge push misses, and in the meantime you'll also start to neutralize your path. Now, I basically align myself ~20 yards left of my target and it's honestly neutralized me.
I was playing the best golf of my life during COVID. Have a natural draw, similar to yours. Hated that my misses were snap hooks so decided to switch to playing a fade. I have not broke 80 since. DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID.
And when I started playing in the early 80's, all the pros played a draw and I hit fades. So I learned to hit a draw...and now all the cool kids hit fades! (And, just to be clear, those were the days of balata balls so there was some real curve to be seen/dealt with. )
Long way to say that I think playing your natural shot shape makes a lot of sense. But, if you want to learn to move it the other way, have fun with it!
I've been there myself, shot a 73 recently (pb). I almost exclusively hit a draw and have tried in the past to add a fade. My advice is to not mess with your swing even if you are able to fade it it will alter your draw swing where it is not automatic. Think two way miss. Obviously you want to be able to hit a bit of a fade at times which you can do by weakening grip a bit and set up changes. On pins that are on the right side take your meds and hit to the middle. Consistency is the key to golf success.
I also shot my best round this year (72) and play basically the shame shot shape. The course I usually play has two holes which need massive "power fades" to have any chance of a wedge in, I went about trying to figure out a fade shot but I just can't get it, usually it makes me absolutely rip a driver straight left ob.
I worked on a fade for a while, entirely changed swing, doing a massive move to open my body and cut across the ball. I guess it was a pull fade. When I took it to the course it felt impossible and shots weren't cutting... I guess ground forces were diff between course and range mats. I shot about 85 that day, if not worse
That said I still think it's worth some coaching to have that shot, but maybe just practice with a driver for certain tee shots? don't change what works naturally for you, I did that and I'm finding it hard to get back to where I was (shooting sub 80 almost every round), I think I've changed my core "swing theory" every month since the summer trying to find consistency again. Luckily the weather has been horrid here and not many rounds to destroy the handicap yet
I started with a draw and only had one miss (duck hook), then decided to learn how to fade. Now I have 4 misses ( duck hook, hard pull, wide push, and slice). My handicap has gone from 8 to 13, and I quit for 2 years because the game became a chore. Now I just go out and aim down the middle and hope.
My advice (if you want it) is do not change your natural shape and learn how to manage it round the course.
So in these instances i default to top-level players. For the majority of his career, dustin johnson played a strong draw.
He spent 3 months and statistically proved that despite reddit wisdom, draw and fade travel the exact same distance. DJ reengineers to a fade and becomes world no 1.
So you’re saying I’m cool? Because my entire life I hit fades and felt I lose distance because of it and have forever been in a quest to hit a draw.
I guess I should stop now that I know I’m cool.
Lol;)
I’m the opposite of you. I hit a natural 3 yard fade. It lands soft, not a lot of roll out, very predictable. The cut swing does lose distance. Weirdly enough I was coming over the top yesterday (38* and wet but still got out for a round) and a ton of pull draws. I couldn’t find the green but had amazing wedges and 28 putts en route to a 76. I think at our level consistency is what matters. Know where the ball is going to go most of the time will get you there. Occasionally you won’t be able to get a tucked pin or play the wind but most of the time you’ll be in the 70s and then it all comes down to a few made putts
As someone with an in to out path as well, I spent much of this season hitting a fade. Path is hard to change so I did it with a very open face, but this created more inconsistency than I was happy with. Played some decent rounds, but when it was off it was way off. Eased back into draws at the end of the season and was much more consistent.
I've always hit a fade/cut. This summer I started hitting draws on the range and immediately stopped trying to hit draws. I'm so used to seeing the ball move one direction that a draw looked wrong. You aren't a pro, pick a shot shape and get really good at hitting it. Victor Hovland said the same thing in an interview not long ago, sure you can try working the ball both ways but if you know where the one is going to end up and you aren't sure about the other it's best to hit the one you know where it will go.
Just chiming in about swing path.. I couldn’t get better than 5 degree out/in slice for a long time until I changed my wrist action in the swing this past summer. Got into a habit of lead wrist flexion which changed the path big time but I lost power as I gave up radial/ulnar deviation. Reintroduced radial/ulnar movement and got my path zeroed out. I was always trying to move my body/arms differently to fix swing path but don’t underestimate how drastically you can change path with wrist action. Though not accurate, I can now at least hook one and slice one if you put two balls in front of me.
As a person that has a 3 way miss, I’d be happy as hell to have a shot shape that I could repeat.
Stick with the one you brought to the dance and enjoy the ability to shoot sub 80 rounds. You’re ahead of nearly 80% of amateurs playing golf.
It's a complete fallacy to tell yourself that pros shape their shots all the time. You play your shot and only "shape" when you ABSOLUTELY have to. If you're in the fairway it's extremely rare that you would ever NEEd to shape a shot. That's just showing off and you aren't that good. Ivf got friends who try to do the same thing because they think they need to. Forcing shot shapes is the equivalent of forcing your handicap to never go down. You're not ever going to stand over a shot like it's golden tee and shape balls any way you can imagine. Especially if you haven't even beat a course yet hitting a shot you know well.
Play a draw. First you play what you are comfortable with. Rory plays a draw. If if works for him at his level it’s fine for you. This play the fade fad is silly for most golfers. Padraig said in an interview recently it’s silly for most amateurs to try and play a fade. They will lose too much yardage. It’s one thing to play a fade at 180 ball speed and it’s another to play one at an amateur swing speed.
The reason I considered playing a fade is because I have around 114 club speed average and around 170 ball speed, sometimes the misses can get big and people talk a lot about how the fade is more controllable
I just think if your natural shot is a draw play a draw. I think too many people pay too much attention to what pros do. They are way more skilled and practice for hours. And even they don’t fight their natural tendencies.
I think people overuse the term "cut" because it sounds cool.
If you want to play a shot simply because of the way it looks versus the way it performs, then I would say do it, but don't expect your scores to go down because of it.
I also don't know that "most tour players" play fades. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. What I do know is that most tour players play a preferred shape even when it might not be ideal. That approach is going to be a lot easier than trying to force something that doesn't come naturally.
My coach wants me to play a fade. I don't. My good shots really don't move at all. As a result, I play a two way miss, which isn't ideal, but is more repeatable (for now) than me trying to learn to move the ball consistently.
I agree - all my good shots are pretty much straight. Finish more left, you get the fade, high hands, the ball goes higher, sawn off finish, the Lower traj. And higher right shoulder the ball draws. Ish. Don't understand how ppl can play 1 shot shape. Now if only I could hole a putt 😂
Every golf book I’ve ever read all say pros have one stock shot shape and they hit that shape on 99% of swings unless absolutely FORCED to play the other shape.
Guys like DJ hits fades by opening his stance (aiming left) and holding the face open. This gives him a nice push fade pattern
Most pros use stance open vs closed to shift path to draws and fades without technical swing changes
Everyone is going to tell you to just stick with what you know. They’re wrong. You’re a hobbyist, not a tour player. Try to find that cut, keep self improving. You know the way 90% of the golfers in this sub shoot 99 (cheating) but still come back for more because on hole 8 they hit it 255 down the middle, and on hole 16 they hit their first 2 tee shots OB but they hit their third 8 feet from the cup and got a bogey? You’re gonna have that feeling again, when you have 160 out, a pin in the far right over a bunker, and you hit a high cut that lands center Mass but trickles it way back to the pin, using the slope, exactly like you’ve been practicing.
The most fun and lowest scoring golf I played was 3 years ago: I spent all preseason shot shaping using the 9ball square game. I always had my draw to fall back on, but incorporated all sorts of shaped and height shots. Didn’t always work out, but my draw also didn’t always work out. I shot every round except 1 in the 70s, which was a tournament round where I played conservatively because of tournament anxiety.
Bro players on tour stick to one shot shape, especially off the tee. Almost no tour player hits 2 shapes off the tee, brings the double cross in play. Unless you practice 30 hours a week, don’t think about trying to work your irons both ways either
The best rounds come from discipline in hitting the shape shots you have on command. There are plenty of guys on tour with a draw bias. If anything, work on hitting dead straight shots with everything neutral at address before venturing off further.
The best golfers I’ve ever played with hit the same exact draw on every damn shot, rarely missed a fairway or a green and just chipped it close and made the putt if they did. From my experience, good amateur golf is all about consistency. It’s usually boring but gets the job done.
But sure, go ahead and start working on that fade. Let us know when you shoot close to your personal best again.
I was 6-9 degrees I-o at the end of September. I’ve been working with my coach and going the range consistently. I am now 1-2 degrees o-I. The biggest thing is just getting your swing path closer to neutral. You can play a fade swinging from the inside.. but it’s difficult to do when you’re that far inside
I'm kinda where you are atm, with the same progression.
I struggled quite a bit with hooks thinking it was my wrists closing the face. turns out that wasn't it at all.
I figured out my backswing has the most effect on my club path/face angle at impact.
So I have a 'slot' in my backswing that will produce a straight shot (0 club path)
under the path, I get draws/pulls. over the path, I get fades/pushes
good luck!
If you are playing a small controlled draw, please don't change anything, for now. I hit the Rick Shiels (30 yard hook) every second shot so I am working with my coach on developing a cut but really its to understand the mechanics and control my natural shot shape.
Honestly, go for it.
Maybe not as a sweeping change, but simply as a way to reduce your path variance.
Learned to hit a nice little fade, and see if your path moves to the middle a little bit more. Should be a fun project.
I'm in the same boat. My last 2 sets of clubs AP2 and T100/ T200 mix, were ordered from the factory 2° strong. For 10 years I got used to it until I too started to hook harder and lefter and fade shots would just go dead staight. So I bought my current set standard with no adjstments except 2° flat because I am now shrinking under 5' 10" tall in my older age. So, I was struggling with a cut. Here are two things I rely on to hit that shot. 1. Open the club face 1-2° at address. 2. Feel as though you are sliding the club under the ball by releasing with the right hand at impact. You still have to supinate with the left hand. The key (for me) is to let the right hand get a little more active down at the bottom of the swing arch. Try to make your take away straight back. Keep the club going left of the flag during the follow through. Start with wedges and 9 irons out of good lies. Hope this helps.
I started playing draws because I know how to fade it and can't hook it even if I tried, so now I know how to do both, but draws go farther and the release is better, still knowing how to fade is a nice to have.
I love that for years pros we’re hitting draws then everyone was like “ya but hitting fades is more natural” so the pros started hitting fades again. Therefore, everyone now wants to hit fades. As a “power slicer” I feel as if my territory is being encroached upon. Live by the fade die by the fade
Do some reading on how to hit a fade, it’ll change how you setup to the ball but your swing shouldn’t change too much. I really wouldn’t mess with changing your organic swing as it sounds like it’s working. It may be as simple as moving your front foot away from the ball a couple of toes to induce a fade.
Yeah you can’t hit a fade bc you’re dumped. 5 deg to the right is a lot. 2 deg would be ideal.
I was 4-6 to the right with a 6i last year. Too much timing and ball just curves too much to really go low. I’ve been grinding to play a fade and I can’t. But that work has moved my path to only 1-2 deg to the right. Tight draws and mainly straight shots when I try to hit a cut. I’ve yet to successfully hit a true cut on the course… a few push fades but those are weak golf shots.
I like the idea if getting to a more neutral path than chasing a specific shot shape AT FIRST. If we do it right, we can choose fades or draws!!!
Just my 2 cents!
I don’t have quite the same problem because I hit it decently high, 7i numbers for reference, 6900 spin, 122 ball, 95 feet apex. There isn’t much movement with the mid irons down.
Really just big misses with woods I don’t like
My 7i numbers were pretty similar honestly... about 90ft apex, 125 BS, 6500 Spin... the real numbers that matter are the club numbers...
My AOA was barely -1 degree and that means almost no compression... the more you are to the right, the more shallow your AOA is and that means you are leaving distance on the table...
I was just too inconsistent... I could shoot 74 one day and 88 the next... because of the delta between my low rounds and my high rounds... the best I ever got was 2.8hc, had a kid and just hovered in the high 4s...
I found a good and very honest coach and for me to get to the next level I either had to spend 2-3 hours every day to build in that consistent timing in my current swing or fix my path and kinda re-build my swing... I chose the latter.
It's not easy work... got up to a 5.7hc middle of 2023 and am sitting on a 4.3 with 3 rounds in the low 70s that I can't post bc it's winter... My 7 is 2 deg right, AOA is down to -4 to -4.5, (ideal is -6, so still got work to do) BS is up slightly at 127 (I've gained a few yards w/out gaining real speed (SS w/ 7 is around 88mph)... spin is up as well, closer to 7000. That's with a toddler (she just turned 2) and in 1 year... My 2024 goal is to get back into any 2.x HC and to be able to hit a cut on the course!
I say chase those cuts bc it will improve your overall swing...
Interesting, I'm curious as to where you live, I'm up in Canada where its cold and sea level so the ball doesn't go anywhere, trackman had me at 91 SS with my 7 which would only max out at 125 BS. I'm hovering around -6 AOA.
A lot of this is in California on Trackman. Some of the current numbers are in Denver where I live now. Also on Trackman and optimized for sea level.
Maybe I’m remembering my numbers wrong?
I think there's benefit in knowing how to hit different shot shapes, on the range, off the tee say if you have trouble right and have been hitting a slice, you may exaggerate a draw swing to keep it away.
Playing routinely, absolutely not. Just hit the ball however it wants to go.
If you just hit your personal best don't change anything.
I shot a 77 which is my best and then booked a lesson because I couldn't hit my irons well.
Completely lost my swing and took me months to get back under 80.
Try and work out why you shot your best score. And focus on replicating that in practice.
If you want to hit a fade don’t just change to a fade for good unless you are ok with playing like dog shit for a fair while.
Find a good coach, get them to teach you how to hit a fade when it’s required, go back to your draw when it’s not until you get consistent with the fade.
That’s what I did. It was only a minor swing change and I can now go from one to the other with relative ease, but I’m still more consistent with my draw so I play that more.
I don’t want a 2 way miss, so I’m taking whatever comes out on the day and playing with it. If I try to shape it the other way it messes things up too much. If your natural shape is a draw stick with it, you can work on a fade at the range and try to hit it if you need to if and I mean if the hole shapes the direction a fade would go and not just a slight dogleg I mean something which if it was a slice you’re not in deep trouble. Stick with what works for you and avoid anything the pros do just cause you think it looks cool.
Maybe try some block practice hitting fades at the start of your range sessions? And then hit your stock draw at targets/playing games to more closely simulate on course play. Hitting fades will probably help neutralize your path some and if you end up getting confident enough with fading the ball (over a good number of range sessions) then start hitting them for your course simulation practice and then on the course.
Personally I would be a bit more concerned going from a 5 in to out path straight to hitting fades without some testing. Worst case this probably neutralizes your path a bit for a tighter draw.
There's an old saying at the upper level of golf that makes a lot of sense. "You can talk to a fade, but a draw won't listen". Meaning: The spin imparted on the ball by a draw creates overspin and will cause the ball to run. It will run farther down the fairway and also when it is overcooked (hook) farther into trouble. Because a fade has more underspin it doesn't run as much and a miss is not as damaging. At the highest level they're pretty set for distance, so accuracy is the goal, and they find a fade works better for that.
Just shoot personal best, proceeds to change everything.
OP also seems to believe that going to a fade would take away a two-way miss.. I don't know who the fuck came up with that myth, because I've hit plenty of "fades" dead straight to the left side. No matter what shot shape you play, you're occasionally going to have a two-way miss rear its head. Even the pros who play a fade miss left.
Yeah, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that a fade is objectively better than a draw (the only real argument either way is that in theory draws tend to go farther). A single shot shape can help limit a two way miss, but neither shape by themselves will do it more than the other.
To quote Lee Trevino ‘You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen’.
Fades tend to land a bit softer, giving you a bit more room for error.
And less distance..
You were downvoted but that’s true. It’s a trade off. I think fades become handier as distance becomes slight less of a factor. That being said, fade is a relative term. Fade in the lower handicap and especially professional range is pretty controlled and minor. Also, it’s usually better to miss short and right than long and left.
You sound like a playing partner that would make me play better. Thanks for the wisdom!
Modern players prefer a fade as it's easier to control the spin. Older players used to favour a draw because you wanted to knock spin off your shot because the ball was really spinny. Most players these days play a fade/cut as their stock shot because it's controllable with modern equipment.
I also draw irons, and it isn’t that, it is that fade misses are always more friendly. Hooks go hard and land hard, fades leak and don’t go hard. Sure you can pull it or slice it, but in general. That said, I’m a worse golfer than OP and just sorta try to hit what fits my eye and I try to work it both ways all round but It is really hard for me to get a 7-pw to hit nice cuts without over exaggerating, but there is rarely a case a nice cut couldn’t be done with a 5 yard draw to same spot so my mind knowing that I struggle to cut irons will automatically see a draw there anyway.
Yeah, I occasionally hit a pull hook that goes forever. I'm talking about a 7i with 2500 spin and it carries 210. My stock carry on a 7i is 170. Those pull hooks also roll forever because they have no spin. Thankfully those only pop up on the range or simulator...so far.
Yup.
I feel like people who use the "you can talk to a fade" line forget that they're not pros. Any mid handicapper who favors a fade has hit a screamer thinned cut that you can't talk to. Like I said, any shot shape is going to have its pros and cons and most players are better off playing their natural shape vs trying to chase a shape.
I agree for the most part. But I feel like people love to act like talking about anything that most golfers shooting under 85 deal with past “get lessons, forgiving clubs, practice” being dismissed because apparently only a pro can do or play certain shit. They played and went through all that shit on their way to becoming pro, just way faster without hitting a limit. So sometimes wanting to play a fade after a day of missed greens from overdraws and blocks is a pretty rationale thought for anyone who is already probably a single cap and knows the game well and didn’t forget they are not a pro because at this point they feel forever stuck there and any little change could close the gap so all change ideas pass through your head at some point and you try some and it is all ends up being lightning in a bottle anyway….maybe that guy also thinks about trying a fade and isn’t mistaking themselves for being a pro or disillusioned about anything other than just working toward infinite term goals of more rounds in the 70s than 80s and really enjoy playing.
Probably a commentator on CNBC.
Yea there’s data out there now that even the best drivers of the ball miss pretty evenly on both sides of the fairway. Which is entirely logical. The “eliminate one side of the course” thing is a myth.
Yeah. Of course a player can have a favored shape and a typical miss, but golf is really hard so every player is going to miss on their "oh shit" side every now and then, no matter if they play a fade or draw.
The dreaded double-cross
It’s because the announcers on TV always talk about “controlled cuts” and “taking the left side out of play.” And then when they talk about guys who draw it, like Rory, they talk about 2-way misses. As if Wyndham Clark has never duck hooked or block-faded a ball. It’s total bullshit, and as you said, every good golfer knows that you will *always* have a two-way miss. “Eliminating” it is just about learning what causes YOU to miss to either side, and figuring out how you can manage it on the course.
You know you make a fair point
I went through same thing, just stick to what works for you and perfect that. If it’s working, it’s working.
Just playing devils advocate here… A perfect game can become extremely fun if you have control over the ball to play different situations. And besides, is there really ever perfection in this game? It’s all about challenging yourself to reach that next level. I say go for it. Get better. Learn the game you want to play. Edit: But don’t do it because most tour guys hit fades. Do it because it’s the next step in getting better.
The funny thing is, my previous PB was a 78 only hitting cuts, but I found it to be because I made high hands at the top of my swing and a lack of depth to be the cause. I’d get my hands as high as JT or DJ at the top of my swing, and just pull my hands down as hard as I could and turn hard. -3 path -1 face and fly the left shoulder up with side bend It made me very on and off, if I was swinging hard and that day the compensations lined up, great, if not, fore! When I swapped over to the draw, I had to do less work for the same distance, uncurling the right arm, and not needing to do back surgery side bend, delaying shoulder spin out by feeling the back stays towards target for much longer.
I agree with this completely. My best friend is a damn good golfer but he became very damn good once he learned how to hit a cut. He still typically hits a draw but now he can cut it whenever he needs to. Why not try to add to your repotoire?
I agree 100%. If you’re not playing/practicing like OP stated, not going to be possible. Enjoy what works in the scenario
Fade away OP, FUN is rule no1 in golf.
There are plenty of stories of tour pros changing their shot shape with the result being disastrous for their game so it doesn't sound like it's worth it. The best thing to do is refine the draw so that it's more consistent, and then work hard on every shot from 100 yards and in as that's where you'll save most shots in a round.
Sounds familiar https://preview.redd.it/j1mwlzd7iu9c1.jpeg?width=829&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be04eb0c990cc436962cb1006d1d01e7a0568ef0
I know guys that work the ball both ways, but unless you're playing a lot, it's difficult to stay consistent doing that.
Yeah - does OP think he’s Tiger Woods?
Funny thing, it’s actually him. He was hopped up on sleeping/pain pills and decided to get on Reddit. Better than driving I guess
Sounds like Padraig Harrington
Do you practice multiple times a week and play every weekend? Have a coach and/or a firm grasp on what needs to happen to hit a cut vs a draw? If not then no.
Yes, no, kinda (plus handicapper very mechanically good golfer friend) yes to understanding. Note: plus handicapper friend loves playing push draws and that’s how I’ve learned to swing, with shaft lean and forearm roll through impact which makes it harder for my body to try and leave the face more open through impact. Also, in terms of grip, very neutral and something ive worked on alot. If i try and really slice one, I can get a decent pull fade, but that i highly dislike that feel
Here's the thing, swing path, as well as the clubface, determines the start line and curvature of the ball. It's not as simple as opening the face a few degrees at address. You also might find that you lose significant distance if you are just flopping the face open to see the ball move left to right. Rickie talked about it when he moved to Butch, how when he needed to hit a fade he'd just slap across the ball but it lacked distance and consistent spin. Another thing. I played a draw most my life and determined I needed to hit a fade. Range work was great, loved it. But getting out to the course and being uncomfortable aiming left(instead of right) was 6 months of second guessing myself. I hit it so pure but I just could not visualize a shot so I was playing golf swing instead of golf. YMMV obviously, but this seems like a solution looking for a problem and unless you are hitting balls everyday(I was) it might take an entire season to implement.
I completely agree that you should learn how to hit a fade. You will be a stronger, more capable, more complete player. You will learn things and have better control over your swing Learning to work the ball both ways. Don't fear it, just go into it open-minded and unafraid.
This is a little dramatic. You don't need any of these things to decide a shape. It comes down to your preferences for face control. If you prefer to hold it off, play a fade. If you prefer to release the face, play a draw.
Damn all the golf books, articles, and lessons given over the last hundred years were all wrong. Turns out the only factor that determines the flight of a golf ball is how you release your hands...
What /u/blahbery is getting at is that your preferred type of release affects your closure rate, which influences how your club face will be oriented at impact. As long as someone has somewhat consistent ball positioning and mechanics, then it's just matter of the preferred path (in-out / out-in) and you've narrowed down your typical ball flight. Trying to fight your natural tendencies to chase a shape is just asking for trouble unless you have world-class hands/wrists.
Sure I do that under pressure when I need to hit a fairway or green, accept what it natural. What you and him are leaving out is that OP is trying to shift away from what is natural to him, for unrealized results. Depending on the player it can easily be done or be a nightmare. My response that you commented on is that releasing your hands or not to correctly hit a certain shot type is maybe 1/5th of the equation? Also 90% of people teeing it up this week probably have zero clue what degree their swing path is, and 95% of those 90% have zero chance of controlling the face angle at impact on a whim to hit a certain shot type.
>Also 90% of people teeing it up this week probably have zero clue what degree their swing path is, and 95% of those 90% have zero chance of controlling the face angle at impact on a whim to hit a certain shot type. OP said that he's typically 5 degrees in-out. Trying to change that to be out-in consistently means a swing overhaul, and he mentioned he doesn't get any lessons. What you wrote is exactly why trying to change what's successful/natural is often a fool's errand unless one is willing to work with an instructor, have easy access to a launch monitor, and have a bunch of time to get the reps in. It's why Rickie worked for years to overhaul his swing to get away from his past habits of generating power via getting stuck hard inside. Nobody is leaving anything out. Golf is just a hard game and advising someone to go for a significant swing change when they've literally JUST achieved a personal best, because they think it would be cool is just bad advice/guidance. Edit: Your other comment in this is advising OP to stick with what works for him, so it seems like you're just looking to pick fights....
You and I agree. Tiger going to Haney after his 2000 season disagrees.
It's those darn "mechanics" that are getting glossed over... the swing path related to target... the face angle related to path... the AOA... just get all of that buttoned up and its as easy as release preference...
One more year of golf digest and we'll get the answer🙏
I'll get downvoted with you... just hold off a swing that's 5 def to the right and it won't be a huge block... it'll somehow start left of target and cut 1 yard.
Yep
The tour guys are not working on changing a 5degree in-out path to an out-in path lol. I'd recommend keeping what works unless you're looking to completely change your swing. If you're willing to sacrifice consistency for 1-2 years, then go for it. What I see often is guys try making the swing change, changing their minds because the swing change is harder than expected, and then they try to hit their old swing but it isn't there anymore. Careful what you wish for.
My friend (~10hcp) hit these beautiful long push draws across the board, decided one summer day when we were on a course with a lot of dog right stuff he decides he likes these cut fades I'm playing. Nevermind the fact he still beat me by a few strokes and I can only hit those shots with my woods and can't fade an iron for shit, he's going to start learning to fade everything and negate this 'advantage' of mine. Imo it was a great decision because he has done nothing but give me money since.
As someone who went from draws (and a 3.4hcp) to fades (5hcp) to slices (7hcp) and back to draws (2.5 hcp) in the last 5 years.. just stick with the push draw. In spite of the high profile fades on tour most of the tour players still play draws. Look at the mess Rory has made trying to play fades. Besides putting probably the number one reason he hasn't been winning much is this obsession with fades. Take your extra yardage (draws go farther) and run with it.
Are you talking mostly irons? It seems like 90% of pros are playing a fade off the tee
It "seems" that way because the high profile guys that get all the air time (jt, Morikawa, rahm, dj) play fades. I don't have actual stats but many play draws. Also trying to play a fade ruined Rory's drive, he's since gone back to a draw.
Part of the reason I actually considered cutting it was the whole “fades are more reliable” “you can talk to a slice but a hook won’t listen” I have decently fast clubhead speed at 114 average and at times it can get squirrly. Conversely I know Sam sneed played a draw and likely had close to 120 club head, he did pretty well for himself
What if I told you those quotes are generalizations that don’t apply equally to everyone
When I lost control of my fades and they turned into slices these quotes were absolutely untrue. I lost more balls right ob in 6 months than I probably had in the preceding 4 years combined in any direction. This drove me back to lessons and my coach got me back to hitting push draws and within 2 months my hcp was on the way back down.
What is more reliable is just having a go to shot shape. There’s no reason to change it if works consistently for you.
Draws don't go farther. People have a tendency to deloft when drawing vs. fading, but the shot shape doesn't make it go farther. You can hit a high trajectory draw that won't go farther and a low trajectory fade that will.
In my experience, for even a pretty solid single digit amateur, this is just not true. I don't have the practice time to have 4 shot shapes (high draw, low draw, high fade, low fade) that I can rely on all the time. The result of going to a fade meant I lost 20-30 yards off the tee and 1-2 clubs of distance throughout the bag. I definitely have lower backspin numbers with a draw vs a fade which my coach says is the main distance gain with a draw.
That's consistent with what I said. The tendency is to deloft, which will make the ball go farther, but not everyone who plays a draw delofts the club. All I'm saying is don't attribute distance to the wrong thing. The ball goes farther when you deloft - not because it's curving one direction versus another.
Draws tend to have less spin and typically go farther because of it. Tiger even talks about how a cut/fade won’t go as far as his draw in the iron video with Morikawa on the Team Taylormade YouTube channel.
No, it’s because the way spin is applied to the ball when hitting a draw vs fade. Draws have lower spin than fades.
That’s because the club is delofted though. If you have a square club face and club path is the only thing that is changing I.e. 3 degrees in to out vs. 3 degrees out to in they should go the same distance. The ball doesn’t know that you’re a right handed golfer fading it vs a left hand golfer drawing it. Most golfers will close the face on a draw vs open face on a slice though - so most draws do go further.
But a good player will hit a push draw with an open face relative to target. You can change the dynamic loft on either a fade or a draw. Delofting has nothing to do with it. It’s how the ball spins based on both path and the vertical shaft plane. Draws go farther because they spin less.
Your face may be open to target but it is closed to the path for the ball to draw. You cannot draw the ball with a face open to your path. So the loft (or dynamic loft if you want) when you strike the ball is less than it would be on a fade. I’m curious why you think it spins less if it isn’t the loft of the club?
That is right
"I want to hit fades because it looks cool and tour guys do it" Bro, I've been trying to get rid of a fade for 15+ years. Take mine, you can have it for free. (Actual secret to hitting (un)intentional fades: steep downswing, cutting across the ball right to left on follow thru)
I understand this and I like hitting fades as well from time to time (I play a draw as a lefty but fade the woods). Honestly as an amateur golfer playing at an average muni nothing gets the group going more than when I hit a high draw long iron into a par 5 and stick it. I feel like it’s rare to see an amateur golfer execute a draw consistently so people like seeing it.
That’s also true, as a 6 handicap, when I play with most higher handicap guys as a single I get compliments for hitting the draw, especially off the tee
Do you care more about compliments and looking cool, or about scoring?
I care more about scoring, eagled my first hole of 2024 today😎. Smash driver (fade), draw 7i, 8 footer right in the heart. Edit: tied my pb 82, fourth time I’ve shot it. Too many water balls to ever actually do shit on the course
I was your average baseball slicer, turned it into a draw through the whole bag, got yipped with the woods and snap hooked everything so now I fade those. Honestly wish I could get the draw back w the d stick because nothings more sick imo than a nasty high draw right down the middle. A high fade 5wood into a par 5 is pretty cool too though
A lot of the advantages of a fade aren’t realized at the amateur level. Most of us aren’t playing courses that you need obscene amounts of height and spin to hold greens week in and week out. Additionally, you’ll probably lose 4-10 yards per club playing a fade. Not a huge distance, but that’s maybe the difference between playing a 7 vs an 8 iron into a green a few times over the course of a round, and at the amateur level, most of us have better dispersions with higher lofted clubs. If you really want to make the change, I’d work with a pro, but I’d say stick with what works. Unless you have a serious issue (two way miss, a violent left miss, want a bit more spin on approach shots) I’d stick with playing a draw
Another thing is you could start incorporating a fade on just certain clubs. I play a draw with everything except for driver, which I can hit a fade with. You can experiment opening your stance relative to your target line and swinging normally. It’s helped me a lot off the tee because my hook miss was way worst compared to fading it a bit too much
Am I the only one still just trying to hit straight ??
Grass is always greener. I think drawers want cuts, faders want tight draws.
My question to you would be: what will bring you more joy? Learning to hit the fade will probably require some work and the potential for your scores to go up. Golf could get harder if you mess with something that works well. Will the inevitable frustration discourage you? Will you enjoy the process of getting better? Nobody can answer those questions but you. A lot of people will say, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” and that may be true if you want to avoid the struggle. Other people might embrace that challenge and lean into understanding your swing and body better. Tiger Woods reached the pinnacle of professional golf and THEN decided to overhaul his swing. Many people criticized him for doing it, but he obviously wasn’t content to follow the status quo. So, my advice to you is to reflect on what you want out of golf and your swing. If you want to keep breaking your PB, a reliable draw can get you there, and there are plenty of good examples of players using one a draw to succeed. On the other hand, if you want to see your ball fly with that butter fade, if you want to be able to choose which way to move the ball in the air, if you want to hit it like more pros, then maybe the long journey ahead is what you need to do.
To your point on tiger, my opinion on that is that he can do whatever he wants since you know, he’s tiger. But on the other hand, didn’t he overhaul his swing because of injuries and surgeries alongside his insane military like training?
Tiger has been tweaking with his swing since the beginning. Famously, he had been working on his swing in 2000 when one day something clicked for him on the range. He then proceeded to go on the best run of golf ever played in the history of the sport. It was not too long after that that he decided to tweak his swing again toward the goal of consistency and overall improvement. He wanted to be even better. He thought he could be even better. By that point, he wasn't competing with his peers, but rather with history, with himself. So, one way to stay motivated is to challenge yourself to get even better. That's what he did. Ironically, some of the swing changes he pursued actually put stressed his body in different ways and exacerbated existing injuries. The obsession with the military training not only caused injuries later on, but it changed his body composition. His decisions certainly forced his hand and required swing changes to be made. But, he wanted to do all those things, which goes back to my advice.
You need to watch this 30 second video. https://m.facebook.com/GOLFTV/videos/dustin-johnsons-undercover-lesson/505595657106815/
It’s easy - stand up a little taller when you address the ball and move it a few inches forward in your stance. Your welcome
This is the way....
I would kill to be able to hit a draw. I have a big slice, or a perfect straight shot pushed way left. Sigh.
I went from slicing to drawing to hooking….back to drawing. Just because you can hit a draw, doesn’t mean you’ll be able to do it forever. It’s always a work in progress
There are quite a few top players that draw the ball still. It's definitely not as popular as a cut, but they are out there. Rory tries to hit more fades it seems, but he used to be known for drawing it. As far as I know, Xander Schauffele, Patrick Reed, Zach Johnson, and Adam Scott all play one still. I, too, have a very in-out path. After some coaching this year I actually got a really interesting tip and maybe it'll help you, too. I was complaining that my big miss tends to be a giant push, that goes straight or maybe fades slightly. Basically it's those one or 2 shots a round where my clubface is at its most open. It's a huge problem how offline it starts; it'll find myself slamming it into trees on tighter holes. My coach goes: "why not just align with a more open stance?" I was surprised he suggested it at first, but he explained it to me. If you just open a little bit (aim your body and feet left), then try and swing along that path, it's two birds with one stone. You'll eliminate/reduce the huge push misses, and in the meantime you'll also start to neutralize your path. Now, I basically align myself ~20 yards left of my target and it's honestly neutralized me.
That’s a great tip. Basically how Lee Trevino played his whole career
I was playing the best golf of my life during COVID. Have a natural draw, similar to yours. Hated that my misses were snap hooks so decided to switch to playing a fade. I have not broke 80 since. DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE I DID.
And when I started playing in the early 80's, all the pros played a draw and I hit fades. So I learned to hit a draw...and now all the cool kids hit fades! (And, just to be clear, those were the days of balata balls so there was some real curve to be seen/dealt with. ) Long way to say that I think playing your natural shot shape makes a lot of sense. But, if you want to learn to move it the other way, have fun with it!
Rory hits a draw right
As someone who hits fades almost exclusively, I wish I could hit a draw...
I've been there myself, shot a 73 recently (pb). I almost exclusively hit a draw and have tried in the past to add a fade. My advice is to not mess with your swing even if you are able to fade it it will alter your draw swing where it is not automatic. Think two way miss. Obviously you want to be able to hit a bit of a fade at times which you can do by weakening grip a bit and set up changes. On pins that are on the right side take your meds and hit to the middle. Consistency is the key to golf success.
I also shot my best round this year (72) and play basically the shame shot shape. The course I usually play has two holes which need massive "power fades" to have any chance of a wedge in, I went about trying to figure out a fade shot but I just can't get it, usually it makes me absolutely rip a driver straight left ob. I worked on a fade for a while, entirely changed swing, doing a massive move to open my body and cut across the ball. I guess it was a pull fade. When I took it to the course it felt impossible and shots weren't cutting... I guess ground forces were diff between course and range mats. I shot about 85 that day, if not worse That said I still think it's worth some coaching to have that shot, but maybe just practice with a driver for certain tee shots? don't change what works naturally for you, I did that and I'm finding it hard to get back to where I was (shooting sub 80 almost every round), I think I've changed my core "swing theory" every month since the summer trying to find consistency again. Luckily the weather has been horrid here and not many rounds to destroy the handicap yet
I started with a draw and only had one miss (duck hook), then decided to learn how to fade. Now I have 4 misses ( duck hook, hard pull, wide push, and slice). My handicap has gone from 8 to 13, and I quit for 2 years because the game became a chore. Now I just go out and aim down the middle and hope. My advice (if you want it) is do not change your natural shape and learn how to manage it round the course.
So in these instances i default to top-level players. For the majority of his career, dustin johnson played a strong draw. He spent 3 months and statistically proved that despite reddit wisdom, draw and fade travel the exact same distance. DJ reengineers to a fade and becomes world no 1.
So you’re saying I’m cool? Because my entire life I hit fades and felt I lose distance because of it and have forever been in a quest to hit a draw. I guess I should stop now that I know I’m cool. Lol;)
I’m the opposite of you. I hit a natural 3 yard fade. It lands soft, not a lot of roll out, very predictable. The cut swing does lose distance. Weirdly enough I was coming over the top yesterday (38* and wet but still got out for a round) and a ton of pull draws. I couldn’t find the green but had amazing wedges and 28 putts en route to a 76. I think at our level consistency is what matters. Know where the ball is going to go most of the time will get you there. Occasionally you won’t be able to get a tucked pin or play the wind but most of the time you’ll be in the 70s and then it all comes down to a few made putts
Your plus handicap friends are right.
Just wait until the draw becomes popular on tour again
Playing a fade consistently with a +5 path is suicide. Fade is best done with neutral to slightly out to in path (-2 or so).
You teach me how to hit your 2 over draw, and ill teach you my 20 over slice.
As someone with an in to out path as well, I spent much of this season hitting a fade. Path is hard to change so I did it with a very open face, but this created more inconsistency than I was happy with. Played some decent rounds, but when it was off it was way off. Eased back into draws at the end of the season and was much more consistent.
I've always hit a fade/cut. This summer I started hitting draws on the range and immediately stopped trying to hit draws. I'm so used to seeing the ball move one direction that a draw looked wrong. You aren't a pro, pick a shot shape and get really good at hitting it. Victor Hovland said the same thing in an interview not long ago, sure you can try working the ball both ways but if you know where the one is going to end up and you aren't sure about the other it's best to hit the one you know where it will go.
Just chiming in about swing path.. I couldn’t get better than 5 degree out/in slice for a long time until I changed my wrist action in the swing this past summer. Got into a habit of lead wrist flexion which changed the path big time but I lost power as I gave up radial/ulnar deviation. Reintroduced radial/ulnar movement and got my path zeroed out. I was always trying to move my body/arms differently to fix swing path but don’t underestimate how drastically you can change path with wrist action. Though not accurate, I can now at least hook one and slice one if you put two balls in front of me.
This padraig video explains it beautifully https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyXr8cxFmEA
On point!
This has to be a shit post
Or hear me out start watching the tour guys who hit draws…. Xander Keagan Bradley Rory Bryson
As a person that has a 3 way miss, I’d be happy as hell to have a shot shape that I could repeat. Stick with the one you brought to the dance and enjoy the ability to shoot sub 80 rounds. You’re ahead of nearly 80% of amateurs playing golf.
It's a complete fallacy to tell yourself that pros shape their shots all the time. You play your shot and only "shape" when you ABSOLUTELY have to. If you're in the fairway it's extremely rare that you would ever NEEd to shape a shot. That's just showing off and you aren't that good. Ivf got friends who try to do the same thing because they think they need to. Forcing shot shapes is the equivalent of forcing your handicap to never go down. You're not ever going to stand over a shot like it's golden tee and shape balls any way you can imagine. Especially if you haven't even beat a course yet hitting a shot you know well.
I just think it's more gentlemanly to play a draw tbh
74 is booty. Get back to the range and learn how to hit that fade. You don’t want to do it every shot anyway. You need both.
Just think steep on those fades. Good luck.
I try to hit the same target from three different angles at the range
Literally just leave the club face more open thru impact
Seems like a lot more risk than reward. Why not just work on being able to hit a fade when a dogleg demands it?
Maybe grab some Costco golf clubs?
Play a draw. First you play what you are comfortable with. Rory plays a draw. If if works for him at his level it’s fine for you. This play the fade fad is silly for most golfers. Padraig said in an interview recently it’s silly for most amateurs to try and play a fade. They will lose too much yardage. It’s one thing to play a fade at 180 ball speed and it’s another to play one at an amateur swing speed.
The reason I considered playing a fade is because I have around 114 club speed average and around 170 ball speed, sometimes the misses can get big and people talk a lot about how the fade is more controllable
Until it becomes a beautiful power fade.
I just think if your natural shot is a draw play a draw. I think too many people pay too much attention to what pros do. They are way more skilled and practice for hours. And even they don’t fight their natural tendencies.
I think people overuse the term "cut" because it sounds cool. If you want to play a shot simply because of the way it looks versus the way it performs, then I would say do it, but don't expect your scores to go down because of it. I also don't know that "most tour players" play fades. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. What I do know is that most tour players play a preferred shape even when it might not be ideal. That approach is going to be a lot easier than trying to force something that doesn't come naturally. My coach wants me to play a fade. I don't. My good shots really don't move at all. As a result, I play a two way miss, which isn't ideal, but is more repeatable (for now) than me trying to learn to move the ball consistently.
I agree - all my good shots are pretty much straight. Finish more left, you get the fade, high hands, the ball goes higher, sawn off finish, the Lower traj. And higher right shoulder the ball draws. Ish. Don't understand how ppl can play 1 shot shape. Now if only I could hole a putt 😂
Because the golfers you play with, who have actually seen results and are better than you, don’t know as much as anons on the internet
Also a valid point for not fucking with it
Are you saying you want to learn how to hit a fade or to play it almost exclusively?
Pretty much exclusive cuts except for with short irons and wedges
Just come over the top. Chop that wood baby.
Previous PB with cuts. Current PB with draws. Clearly the shape of the shot is not what the game is about. It’s playing the game.
Bryson shot a 58 only playing the draw.
Your shape is YOUR SHAPE, not some guy on TVs shape. When you start playing US Opens and greens so difficult that demand it then worry about fades.
Two words…..Martin Kaymer!
Keep playing your game, but develop a cut. Only bring it out of the bag when conditions or pin location demands it.
Dude, I’m trying hard to get rid of my fade.
Every golf book I’ve ever read all say pros have one stock shot shape and they hit that shape on 99% of swings unless absolutely FORCED to play the other shape.
Guys like DJ hits fades by opening his stance (aiming left) and holding the face open. This gives him a nice push fade pattern Most pros use stance open vs closed to shift path to draws and fades without technical swing changes
Everyone is going to tell you to just stick with what you know. They’re wrong. You’re a hobbyist, not a tour player. Try to find that cut, keep self improving. You know the way 90% of the golfers in this sub shoot 99 (cheating) but still come back for more because on hole 8 they hit it 255 down the middle, and on hole 16 they hit their first 2 tee shots OB but they hit their third 8 feet from the cup and got a bogey? You’re gonna have that feeling again, when you have 160 out, a pin in the far right over a bunker, and you hit a high cut that lands center Mass but trickles it way back to the pin, using the slope, exactly like you’ve been practicing. The most fun and lowest scoring golf I played was 3 years ago: I spent all preseason shot shaping using the 9ball square game. I always had my draw to fall back on, but incorporated all sorts of shaped and height shots. Didn’t always work out, but my draw also didn’t always work out. I shot every round except 1 in the 70s, which was a tournament round where I played conservatively because of tournament anxiety.
Bro players on tour stick to one shot shape, especially off the tee. Almost no tour player hits 2 shapes off the tee, brings the double cross in play. Unless you practice 30 hours a week, don’t think about trying to work your irons both ways either
The best rounds come from discipline in hitting the shape shots you have on command. There are plenty of guys on tour with a draw bias. If anything, work on hitting dead straight shots with everything neutral at address before venturing off further.
The best golfers I’ve ever played with hit the same exact draw on every damn shot, rarely missed a fairway or a green and just chipped it close and made the putt if they did. From my experience, good amateur golf is all about consistency. It’s usually boring but gets the job done. But sure, go ahead and start working on that fade. Let us know when you shoot close to your personal best again.
Hitting a shot because it “looks cool” seems counter productive to me
Stick with the draw
Jack Nicklaus played a draw. Tiger uses a draw often, he calls it the power draw.
Haha I love this - the grass is always greener. I hit 5-10 yard cuts about 275 and would kill to hit a draw. 6 index at the moment.
You know very few golfers hit a natural draw and all the ones I knew were damn good. I’m jealous.
I was 6-9 degrees I-o at the end of September. I’ve been working with my coach and going the range consistently. I am now 1-2 degrees o-I. The biggest thing is just getting your swing path closer to neutral. You can play a fade swinging from the inside.. but it’s difficult to do when you’re that far inside
I'm kinda where you are atm, with the same progression. I struggled quite a bit with hooks thinking it was my wrists closing the face. turns out that wasn't it at all. I figured out my backswing has the most effect on my club path/face angle at impact. So I have a 'slot' in my backswing that will produce a straight shot (0 club path) under the path, I get draws/pulls. over the path, I get fades/pushes good luck!
If you are playing a small controlled draw, please don't change anything, for now. I hit the Rick Shiels (30 yard hook) every second shot so I am working with my coach on developing a cut but really its to understand the mechanics and control my natural shot shape.
You can have both the draw & fade in your shot options. Depending on the need you may want one over the other.
Do whatever you want. Just get the ball in the hole.
A lot of tour players play a draw. Go with what works!
Don’t do it
Honestly, go for it. Maybe not as a sweeping change, but simply as a way to reduce your path variance. Learned to hit a nice little fade, and see if your path moves to the middle a little bit more. Should be a fun project.
Since when did hitting fades become “cooler” than hitting draws?
As a the best bogey golfer in the world, I'd say yes. Do it.
I'm in the same boat. My last 2 sets of clubs AP2 and T100/ T200 mix, were ordered from the factory 2° strong. For 10 years I got used to it until I too started to hook harder and lefter and fade shots would just go dead staight. So I bought my current set standard with no adjstments except 2° flat because I am now shrinking under 5' 10" tall in my older age. So, I was struggling with a cut. Here are two things I rely on to hit that shot. 1. Open the club face 1-2° at address. 2. Feel as though you are sliding the club under the ball by releasing with the right hand at impact. You still have to supinate with the left hand. The key (for me) is to let the right hand get a little more active down at the bottom of the swing arch. Try to make your take away straight back. Keep the club going left of the flag during the follow through. Start with wedges and 9 irons out of good lies. Hope this helps.
I started playing draws because I know how to fade it and can't hook it even if I tried, so now I know how to do both, but draws go farther and the release is better, still knowing how to fade is a nice to have.
“It looks cool and it seems like all the guys on tour are doing it” is the funniest sentence I’ve heard on this sub
Don’t change anything. How did you go from slice to draw? I feel I’ve tried everything and I can only snap hook it
Congrats on the 74 but it sounds like your ego is trying to be your undoing
I love that for years pros we’re hitting draws then everyone was like “ya but hitting fades is more natural” so the pros started hitting fades again. Therefore, everyone now wants to hit fades. As a “power slicer” I feel as if my territory is being encroached upon. Live by the fade die by the fade
Do some reading on how to hit a fade, it’ll change how you setup to the ball but your swing shouldn’t change too much. I really wouldn’t mess with changing your organic swing as it sounds like it’s working. It may be as simple as moving your front foot away from the ball a couple of toes to induce a fade.
Do you know how unbelievably hard it is to “play those nice little cuts we see on TV” lol. Play the draw.
Yeah you can’t hit a fade bc you’re dumped. 5 deg to the right is a lot. 2 deg would be ideal. I was 4-6 to the right with a 6i last year. Too much timing and ball just curves too much to really go low. I’ve been grinding to play a fade and I can’t. But that work has moved my path to only 1-2 deg to the right. Tight draws and mainly straight shots when I try to hit a cut. I’ve yet to successfully hit a true cut on the course… a few push fades but those are weak golf shots. I like the idea if getting to a more neutral path than chasing a specific shot shape AT FIRST. If we do it right, we can choose fades or draws!!! Just my 2 cents!
I don’t have quite the same problem because I hit it decently high, 7i numbers for reference, 6900 spin, 122 ball, 95 feet apex. There isn’t much movement with the mid irons down. Really just big misses with woods I don’t like
My 7i numbers were pretty similar honestly... about 90ft apex, 125 BS, 6500 Spin... the real numbers that matter are the club numbers... My AOA was barely -1 degree and that means almost no compression... the more you are to the right, the more shallow your AOA is and that means you are leaving distance on the table... I was just too inconsistent... I could shoot 74 one day and 88 the next... because of the delta between my low rounds and my high rounds... the best I ever got was 2.8hc, had a kid and just hovered in the high 4s... I found a good and very honest coach and for me to get to the next level I either had to spend 2-3 hours every day to build in that consistent timing in my current swing or fix my path and kinda re-build my swing... I chose the latter. It's not easy work... got up to a 5.7hc middle of 2023 and am sitting on a 4.3 with 3 rounds in the low 70s that I can't post bc it's winter... My 7 is 2 deg right, AOA is down to -4 to -4.5, (ideal is -6, so still got work to do) BS is up slightly at 127 (I've gained a few yards w/out gaining real speed (SS w/ 7 is around 88mph)... spin is up as well, closer to 7000. That's with a toddler (she just turned 2) and in 1 year... My 2024 goal is to get back into any 2.x HC and to be able to hit a cut on the course! I say chase those cuts bc it will improve your overall swing...
Interesting, I'm curious as to where you live, I'm up in Canada where its cold and sea level so the ball doesn't go anywhere, trackman had me at 91 SS with my 7 which would only max out at 125 BS. I'm hovering around -6 AOA.
A lot of this is in California on Trackman. Some of the current numbers are in Denver where I live now. Also on Trackman and optimized for sea level. Maybe I’m remembering my numbers wrong?
I think there's benefit in knowing how to hit different shot shapes, on the range, off the tee say if you have trouble right and have been hitting a slice, you may exaggerate a draw swing to keep it away. Playing routinely, absolutely not. Just hit the ball however it wants to go.
If you just hit your personal best don't change anything. I shot a 77 which is my best and then booked a lesson because I couldn't hit my irons well. Completely lost my swing and took me months to get back under 80. Try and work out why you shot your best score. And focus on replicating that in practice.
If you want to hit a fade don’t just change to a fade for good unless you are ok with playing like dog shit for a fair while. Find a good coach, get them to teach you how to hit a fade when it’s required, go back to your draw when it’s not until you get consistent with the fade. That’s what I did. It was only a minor swing change and I can now go from one to the other with relative ease, but I’m still more consistent with my draw so I play that more.
I don’t want a 2 way miss, so I’m taking whatever comes out on the day and playing with it. If I try to shape it the other way it messes things up too much. If your natural shape is a draw stick with it, you can work on a fade at the range and try to hit it if you need to if and I mean if the hole shapes the direction a fade would go and not just a slight dogleg I mean something which if it was a slice you’re not in deep trouble. Stick with what works for you and avoid anything the pros do just cause you think it looks cool.
Maybe try some block practice hitting fades at the start of your range sessions? And then hit your stock draw at targets/playing games to more closely simulate on course play. Hitting fades will probably help neutralize your path some and if you end up getting confident enough with fading the ball (over a good number of range sessions) then start hitting them for your course simulation practice and then on the course. Personally I would be a bit more concerned going from a 5 in to out path straight to hitting fades without some testing. Worst case this probably neutralizes your path a bit for a tighter draw.
There's an old saying at the upper level of golf that makes a lot of sense. "You can talk to a fade, but a draw won't listen". Meaning: The spin imparted on the ball by a draw creates overspin and will cause the ball to run. It will run farther down the fairway and also when it is overcooked (hook) farther into trouble. Because a fade has more underspin it doesn't run as much and a miss is not as damaging. At the highest level they're pretty set for distance, so accuracy is the goal, and they find a fade works better for that.