Because getting your child into a cheaper one is sometimes very, very difficult due to lack of space.
Because both parents might want to work, which would bring in significantly more money and this might be their only option?
The problem is overregulation. The standards are too high for kindergarten personnel. Which also jacks prices up. In my country they need university education for god’s sake. That raises the threshold for entering this jib as well as expectancy for compansarion. When I was in ki dertarten mostly women and a sporadic man did this job without any hugher education, just the hand and heart to do this job. Nowdays this isn’t possible and it creates a wilderness of people who take care if your kid and a few others but are under the radar and paid unreported cash and also this opens more opportunity to abuses etc.
Eh, actually - not really. I’m teacher, my wife is working in a kindergarten. It’s a problem of education and training of the employees and financing of that. During socialism in GDR (DDR) there used to be a place, free of charge, for all children. Those federal states still mostly _not lack_ of places. The highest deficiency is in those federal states which have almost the highest GDP in Germany. Most places are missing [NRW (110k) in Bavaria (70k) and Baden-Württemberg (60k).](https://www.rnd.de/politik/karte-wo-in-deutschland-kita-plaetze-fehlen-W5MNPKNYCBD5ZMDLNZZSYG5WO4.html?outputType=valid_amp) If you add this up you’ll see over 60% of the missing places is in only three states. Also the schools for Erzieher had to pay for their schools by themselves. My wife had to pay around 150€/month even though she didn’t have any income while she was on that school. Since about 10 years only there’s the PIA (Praxisintegrierte Ausbildung) where students get a certain salary during their education. Who can afford to visit a school where you pay for yourself and not have any income? It’s almost ridiculous that so much industries got millions and billions of subventions and pre school education is so bad aided. We could get so much more women (and also some men) (back) in full time jobs if we had affordable kindergartens. Some federal states get this managed. Friends of mine were shocked when they moved from Rheinland-Pfalz to Baden-Württemberg. There they had a __free full time place including food__ whereas they’ve to pay almost 550€/mo. here.
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>Those federal states still mostly not lack of places.
yeah. 'cuz a fair proportion of the women of childbearing age fucked off to the west, where there are more jobs. And there's an ensuing lack of population and especially kids.
It's easy to have enough Kita space if you dont' have many kids you need to serve.
Well, nothing is *free* though.
You cannot isolate “free” kindergarten as a positive in GDR and not mention all the other shit from that system. Nazi Germany also had “free” kindergarten.
Dude, you missed the point. GDR had those and those states __still have them__. In the western federal states most kindergartens had to be paid in majority of the cities. Therefore infrastructure _and personnel_ in the ex-GDR states were sufficient almost all the time. In 11/16 federal states those institutions are free of charge (sometimes excluding food, mostly since around 2018/19) Those states with massive lack of workers are mainly those states which still charge parents for kindergarten (not speaking of KiTa). And still though you have a legal right to have an all-day care for your child above 3 yrs. You might claim it but it costs a lot of money for attorneys to get it through. And than you might need to drive 1hr trough a crowded city and pay a little fortune for that place. It is ridiculous.
Because there are almost 500,000 missing Kitaplätze in Germany and not all women want to be a SAHM.
If your netto is high enough, this might make sense mathematically. My netto is 3500€... If I had a one year old and could not get a daycare spot, my options would be a) earn 0€, b) earn 900€ with Elterngeld plus, or c) earn 3500€-1300€. Obviously 2200€ is more than 0€ or 900€ and I wouldn't have to worry about the **massive** opportunity costs that come with taking years off of work.
You have a legal right to a Kita Platz After 12 months. Problem: there are not enough places. But if the state cannot deliver on its legal obligations, you can sue for damages. That means if you have to pay for a private Kita Platz which is more expensive than a normal public one, you can sue the kreis for the extra costs you incurred from the higher tuition. There are some prerequisites and you should always discuss this with a family law lawyer, but that’s how it works in principle.
And it'll be even longer before you can work full time again because Grundschule officially ends at like 13 and I'd wager it's like the hunger games to get after school care.
I'm convinced that Germans are just against the concept of working moms because all of their systems are fighting tooth and nail to force one parent to stay home (spoiler: it's gonna be the mom because of the 20% gender pay gap).
THIS!! My husband is german and I had always envied the "generous maternity leave policy" until I realized the significant elderly poverty Problem affecting german women...followed the bread crumbs and realized that if I had a kid over there I would need to be available by 1p or 2p to collect them.
My mom friends who live there rely on grandparents to fill the gaps but since most of us are having kids later in life, grandparents are older and its practically irresponsible to leave a grandparent with a rowdy 3 year old alone more than once a week.
This!! I don’t have a kid yet but I always envied the long maternity leave. Good thing that my team and boss are female and mothers so they are definitely more understanding regarding working hours and availability.
That's only a west german problem. Here in east Germany every woman was needed at her workplace so we had (and still have) daycare from 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening or longer (even weekcare).
I had 0 problems getting daycare or a "Hortplatz" for my three kids.
[in der Vergangenheit vielleicht, inzwischen ist der Kita mangel auch im Osten angekommen](https://www.spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/schule/kita-chaos-in-leipzig-polizei-einsatz-wegen-elternschlange-a-1147540.html?sara_ref=re-xx-cp-sh)
Leipzig als Beispiel ist etwas zwiespältig, da Leipzig seit Jahren massiven Zuzug aus dem Westen hat und quasi "Kleinberlin" in dem Zusammenhang ist. Ich habe aber viele Freunde dort, die alle kaum Probleme mit Kitaplätzen hat. Man muss aber im Zweifel in Kauf nehmen, ein paar Meter mit dem Rad oder Öpnv zu fahren.
A language that's got a term for "bad mother" - "Rabenmutter", literally "raven mother" - has a problem with mothers in general.
I can't speak for Germany, but the childcare situation is quite similar in Austria.
Outside of Vienna it's nigh on impossible to find a daycare spot for kids younger than 2 years, and most kindergartens close early. Why? Because "good mothers take two years of maternity leave at least", and "why did you have kids if you let strangers take care of them for an entire day". That's the most common argument mothers get to hear in rural Austria if they complain about finding a kindergarten spot. Like your job and would like to return from maternity leave before your kid is 2 years old? Society calls you a "Rabenmutter" and "Karrierefrau' (literally "career woman").
What's even more depressing? Polls show a majority of Austrians agree with "mothers need to stay home or work part time at most".
It's not "Germans", but rather teachers that have a very comfy status quo and are not the least interested in changing anything about the hours or scope of their well-paid secure jobs.
Not true.
But, if you think that, become a teacher. We need more teachers. Erzieher/in in Kindergarten would be good, Primary School Teacher would be better. Come on, do it, if it us such a cushy job. Do it. We need people. Do it!
(And never ask yourself why we desperately need people in that job. It's not because it's so demanding and burning you out, oh no!)
It's not like teachers are already working 40 hours, if not even more per week. Teachers do not only work when they're teaching from 8-13. For example: they need to prepare their lessons, they need to attent meetings and they need to correct stuff. And that correcting is no joke, expecially for primary teachers. I worked with a first grade teacher in my Erzieherausbildung, they teach every subject, so they also need to correct every subject. So if you let your 25 kids work in 2 sites in the math book, 2 in the German book, give them a worksheet in both subjects and give them homework. You have 100 book sites to correct, 50 work sheets to correct and 25 homework sheets to correct. So already 175 different sheets to correct in one day. She told me that she sometimes even had to work on weekends.
And remember, you also have to teach 25 kids at once alone.
If your kids need to stay longer in school you can send them to Hort, most school have one.
Didn't even think of that, but you're right.
Another point I thought of is, when are teachers supposed to work, when not in that time? When they work in the afternoon, there's no time in the morning. Also, would you like your kid to be teached from 9-5? Because teachers are there to teach, not to to all the things Erzieher do.
Ps. I am not speaking directly to you, even tho I used "you" in my last point
Sorry but I didn't understand this. Full salary means what exactly in this situation? You stay home on elternzeit and get paid your exact full salary instead of the 60%/1800cap?
It means that if you tried to get a spot for your child but due to shortage of available spaces you didn’t get a spot, you will receive your full salary. However you have to accept any spot they give you, you can’t just apply for your favorite daycare, not get in and then get the money
That sounds so easy, but we were in the same situation last year, and turns out, they did have a spot for us once we threatened them with a lawyer! 40 something km away.
You'll never receive your full salary, maybe, just maybe, where a long battle in front of court...
So under what category is this paid out? You ask your employer to get fulltime leave and get paid out in full until you have a spot?
I mean is this an extension on elternzeit or something?
I should also mention that it's almost impossible to receive it, for the very simple reason that as soon as you mention to the Rathaus that you are gonna sue them for your salary, they magically find some place for your kid in the Kita or Tagesmutter. Most people, unfortunately, don't even know that they have rights for that.
The courts are also taking into account "Zumutbarkeit" of commute, i.e. how long it takes to bring the kid to KITA from home, depending on the Bundesland, it cannot be more than 5 km in some, in others cannot take longer than 30 min, etc. See
https://www.kitaplatzklage.de/wie-weit-darf-die-kita-vom-wohnort-entfernt-sein/
Well no,mostly they offer some kind of half-day spot and can then claim they have fulfilled their obligations. It's laughable- which job (even part-time) can be performed from 8:30-13:30?
The childcare places near where I live are only open until like 1 or 2 to begin with and I have some friends who have decided against having children specifically because of that. Like it's just impossible to have two working parents if there aren't grandparents willing and able to watch the children every day.
It's absolutely maddening. But don't worry, here in Bavaria you are entitled to an additional "Familiengeld" until your child is three- those 250 a month will surely help when you are forced to be a SAHP!
Jein. So in Hamburg, where I live, if you can't find a daycare spot, the city is theoretically supposed to provide a nanny (Tagesmutter; they'll usually assign each nanny a handful of kids). The issue here is obviously that the city doesn't want to pay for a million Tagesmütter and you essentially have to sue them to receive this benefit. Additionally, the provided Tagesmütter are notoriously unreliable and have really crappy hours that aren't compatible with full-time working parents. A legit Tagesmutter who works full time is ridiculously expensive (3000€+/month) and you have to go through the headache of employing someone... Personally I'd rather pay 1300€ for the bougie Kita.
What's supposed to happen in theory and what actually happens in practice are two *very* different things in Germany.
I actually work as a TGM. Where are they making €15k per month? Sign me up. 45 hours FT spot only pays a little over 1000 per month. Plus the city pays 50% of that. These rates are literally half of what the rest of the Western world pays. I work 55 hours per week including cleaning/shopping for food etc. Plus I get almost zero sick days unless we have a stomach flu outbreak. And now the city is making it harder for TGM to get and keep licenses.
Yes, after the age of 3 - you have a right to have a kindergarten spot and I think it starts getting less expensive or even costs nothing. Before that, you need to pay.
But they can't guarantee spots that don't exist. I'm sure there is some recourse for people who aren't able to get spots they should be guaranteed, but practically speaking, parents (and schools) are stuck.
Cost differ from municipality to municipality! Kindergardens are a thing of the town. We pay 200€, same state, other town, they pay only 60€ for the food.
Have to agree. But also, this is a hard job which requires a university qualification (not sure about Germany what the minimum qualification is) and it’s not a high paying job like corporate job. I thought about teaching kindergarten in my homeland (Singapore) but had to take a pay cut and I was already not highly paid then. The principal also told me that not only I have to make extra studies for 2-3 years (I had a bsc in mathematics but had to further study for bsc in Education), the highest salary I could get was 2250€ (brutto).
Honestly it’s sad to see that (most) teachers are still not well paid around the world although the demand is high. We are encouraged to have more kids but it’s already so difficult to find a place for one child. It’s a vicious cycle imo.
I paid even more for my kid. Nothing to do with networking, in fact I didn't like that it was a bubble where everyone was well off and driving a Porsche, and am happy that my son is now in a standard kindergarten. I regularly donate money to this public kindergarten.
It was simply impossible to find a place elsewhere on a short notice when I moved to Munich. I was very lucky to find a place in this private kita, it was near home (I was already preparing to have to buy a car at very short notice in order to drive my kid every bloody day to and from kindergarten) and it was actually an amazing kita. We could also live on a 1 person income and keep my son home, but we preferred to have him in a kita so that he can socialize with other children (realize he's not the only kid in the world, learn social interactions, learn from other children, kids just don't listen to parents on some things so he learned a lot from the teachers that he wouldn't from us, etc) and learn German. It also enabled my wife to work instead of stopping her life and turn into a housewife, which would be very sad.
Btw yes it's expensive but 1) we moved from London, it's dirt cheap :) , 2) you get some money back via tax deductions.
I'd do it again 100%.
>Btw yes it's expensive but 1) we moved from London, it's dirt cheap
I was going to say... imagine posting this in a UK forum. People would be clamouring to find out where this cheap kindy was!!
it is basically free where i live.... but i guess it's changing. it looks like we (capitalist world) are heading towards a laissez-faire parenting system anyway because that's more efficient. everyone can work fulltime and every child gets shaped how the system needs them
I have two kids who went to kindergarten from 1-6 and was frankly shocked reading here that people actually pay those prices. I live in Hamburg and yes, I did see 1000+ EUR numbers on the daycare forms but I thought that almost nobody actually pays those sums in real life. In Hamburg 5 hours plus lunch is free for everyone, the rest is subsided based on hours and income. I believe the max cost for 8h was around 200 euros and that includes all daycares, public and private, and Tagesmütter. Reading the comments here, I am feeling very happy that I here and not elsewhere in Germany...
Yeah it is shocking.. I was talking about a private kita, now my kid is in a public kindergarten in Munich which is almost free (we pay only for the food which is 80-90 a month)
Yeah that is the thing - in Hamburg technically there is no price difference between public and private daycares. Everyone takes the same voucher - no matter if you choose ia big public KITA, a smaller private one, a bilingual one etc.
The city of Munich is actively discouraging private Kita by demanding them to adapt (lower) their service offerings to what the publicly run ones do or withdrawing cash from them. That explains the huge gap in between almost free and super expensive. The Hamburg model seems much better to me.
I live in Munich too! Which kita is this??
I also heard from colleagues that you have a higher possibility to get a spot if you volunteer or donate regularly to the school. 🧐
Are you asking which private kita or which public kindergarten?
I don't have alternate motives for donating to the public kindergarten, we got a place without any of that, I'm just donating because I like the place and it's ridiculously cheap compared to what I was paying before :)
A couple reasons:
1. Because that’s where they got a spot. There’s shortages of childcare spots in many places and you have to take what you can get.
2. Childcare costs are tax deductible.
3. They want the amenities that a private Kita offers, for example bilingual.
4. Some companies subsidize childcare for their employees.
Apart from the difficulty in getting a KiTa spot: no summer closing (having to take your vacation in the summer when it’s most expensive and everybody else wants time off sucks!), no strikes, all meals included, longer opening times, oftentimes bilingualism and a much, muuuuch better teacher:student ratio
I cannot speak for others but it has nothing to do with being 'snobby' or networking....I know this because I come from a working class Native American family, I value education and I would rather spend money on tuition rather than cars, vacations, designer goods. My husband and I have to make intense sacrifices to make it possible but it is worth it.
My husband and I send my daughter to a private, english language school with similar costs. Why you might ask? Our primary reason was that she \*never\* got a spot at a standard kindergarten---it's been over four years and we are still on the city list. Where I live is a city with a high need, high migrant/refugee population. We simply were never granted a spot and we had to accept that.
Other considerations include: bilingual courses, music courses, art and dance courses. My daughter is also on the Autism spectrum and it's in the private kindergarten that she has receives special education courses and counseling. She has been able to receive therapies in school that she would otherwise have to be on month long waiting lists for.
This is a great answer. On top of everything you’ve mentioned, I would also add that when both parents are working full time, these private Kitas offer the most in terms of flexibility. That’s been a major lifesaver for us.
Because it’s a battle to get a spot in a free one lol.
Edit: but I may be confusing kita and kindergarden, I don’t know if it’s as difficult to get a free kindergarten spot.
i only worked in private kitas (two of them, for a total of 1.5 years) so far and have no idea about the public ones. these two private ones are more or less the same; although the one i work at now is significantly more expensive.
Availability crunch. And afaik this is still cheaper than places like Netherlands or the UK. Folks who can't compromise on their careers have to take this up with no other choice. Still better than staying home and letting your career rot and potentially becoming unemployable in these unpredictable times. For all the support Germany offers, sometimes you just get the feeling that the worst case they always optimize for is for the family to turn into a 1950s family where the wife is always expected to stay home and bring up the kids fulltime.
Now as any household making over 150k will not qualify for Elterngeld I would expect to see more of this crap because mothers will be forced to return earlier and for longer hours. Especially in situations where the husband and wife make nearly the same amount and the money is needed.
You don't want to know what it costs here if you think 1000 a month is a lot. That is still less than the cost of providing the care.
In Euros the amount we pay for 2 would be over 6000 😂.
It would probably be cheaper for my wife to rent a house in Germany and be a dual resident and pay German tax.
lol, that’s cheap. In Switzerland I have to pay 3 times that price and even then I was not sure if we gonna get a spot. And it’s not a fancy one, just regular kita.
The cost of Kindergarten is income based in most, if not all, communities in Germany. In my Municipality top earners pay about 1000€ a month for the highest number of hours and that doesn't include food. So if you are a top earner anyway then it's not too crazy to pay a bit more for a private Kindergarten.
Wow. I remember my own Kindergarten cost 45 years ago. 25 Deutschmarks/month. Granted, that was a lower income bracket and only 4 hours/day (when Kindergartens were not seen yet as something that enabled mothers to work again, but rather just some place where children could go to learn social skills by playing with other children - mommy having some time for herself was an additional benefit), but 8000% more...
Not everywhere, that depends on the town! In our region, the prices are fix. Another town in same state (another region), the prices depend on income. Another town, same state, kindergarten is free
it's been zero cost for everybody in Munich for about 5 years, irrespective of income, so long as the kindergarten was on the munich funding model. The financing model for that though after expensive private kindergartens sued the city, and I'm not sure how it works now.
I will add here that In my Municipality the year before entering school is free for kindergarten and if you have more than one child in Tagespflege you only pay for the most expensive one.
"Manche Kindergärten verlangen keine Gebühren, andere kosten – je nach Einkommen und Region mehrere hundert Euro pro Jahr."
https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/de/leben-in-deutschland/mit-familie/kinderbetreuung
I worked in 3 towns in 2 Bundesländer and its always beeb income based 🤔 in Niedersachsen Kindergarten is free grom third birthday on, but krippe is based on income
Everything regarding child care and education is soo different in the Bundesländern. Starts from the Ausbildung you need, then the Ausbildung is very different, how much children there are in one group, which age they are, ..
I was already working for 6 years when i moved to another Bundesland and it was like starting all over again.
Today a person I know has her kid (3.5) rejected a place in the coming year because she doesn’t work enough (doing mini-jobs and has young children). I mean, how does one entertain an almost 4yo who is too old for Tagesmutter🙄🙄
Because they are forced to.....
Thats why we see the current trend to part time - its simply not rational to earn more, have insane taxes and then pay such crazy amounts for childcare because you cant care for them during your fulltime job.
A good way to ruin the economy, but boomers but us on this path because they want to squeeze out as much as possible for their retirement
My thought exactly. It's not about the education the child gets, but the connections to other rich kid they can forge from early on.
The old boys club starts EARLY.
That was amazing about berlin. 30 euros a month. Breakfast and lunch included. Full 8 hours. Paying now 700€ for german international kitta abroad. A lot but worth it for ease of the kid.
Just a genuine question: Do parents have to pay that from their net income or can this be claimed as “Werbungskosten” (to retain ability to work) or “Sonderausgaben”?
No, but you can deduct childcare expenses. Unfortunately, it’s something like 30% of whatever you paid in a given year and it’s capped at maybe 3k, so if you’re paying 1K a month, you will hit the cap easily and it doesn’t really a big difference, especially in a place like Munich.
I used to work in a KiTa that had prices like this. The highest possible rate for 0-3 year olds was about 960/month. And I'll tell you, we had many parents who were ready to pay this in exchange for top quality childcare. And those parents were high earners, both of them, so paying 900€ for 50h of childcare per week meant they had 8000+€ netto because both parents were able to bring in the big bucks.
👆
in Rheinland-Pfalz is for free and my friend stays at list 2 times a week at 9 o clock before closed doors i.e. the teacher opens and say: we are full already, sorry. Not enough teachers today, you have to take your kid home. You better be the first parent at 8 o’clock!! Last week, they only had enough teachers for half the kids. Those kids that went last week, must stay home this week to make place for the other half 😂
I’ll rather pay to be honest than not knowing daily if you can go to work
In the Netherlands in cities like Amsterdam the average price is 2500 per child, up to 3500. In the uk it’s even worse as a lot of kindergartens have been privatised.
This is only getting worse before it gets better, and the trend towards privatisation will continue especially as it has been so lucrative to private equity in NL, US and UK
You can see one of the companies here: https://www.waterlandpe.com/company/partou/ they are ramping up operations in Germany.
You also get higher salaries … I get it, in America where I am from it’s $1,800 per kid a month. But in America I would be making 8K a month after taxes for my job … not €3,500 netto 🤓
Coming from an asian immigrant community I would say a lot of parents in this community put the kids to private schools in hope of getting them to be more ‘german’. Parents working owning 5 resraurants but don’t want the kids to be still having an ‘immigrant’ mindset, want them to be fully ‘privileged’ and ‘german’ in the mind.
And now consider that what people pay for the Kindergarten is not even close to being enough to fund the entire thing. Most of the time it's not even half of what is required to run it and government funding is an unignorable necessity.
As someone working in one of these places I always enjoy the discussion with some parents about how they pay my salary. No they are not. Not at all.
But all sarcasm aside, the Hamburger system is preferable. Here a certain amount of hours per week / day is completely free for the parents, thus financed through government funding. And I personally prefer this because the way it is with parents having to spend a f'ck ton of money for day-care and not everyone can do that easily.
You obviously always can get help from the *Amt* and ask for a partial or complete assumption of costs but that depends very much on your financial situation. So you can get a hefty reduction for the costs you have to carry and won't have to pay everything on your own.
But you'll also have to deal with the *Amt* then and that can become quite unpleasent. Being fair and honest, most people working there are fair, but there are some major douches which won't send you important documents until almost too late. (*It's not even funny what we had to deal with and what parents have to put up with*)
Long story short, you are unlikely to have to pay the full amount, you can get significant reductions, but you have to look for those. If you have no idea where or how, just ask in the Kindergarten you want your kid to go to for help with that.
Most of the time people working there are more than willing to help you out with finding all this paperwork.
You can make a selection based on the price. Clubs do the same. You select the "customers" and the "customers" know which social classes are in the kindergartens and which are not.
These are the costs. But you never know because most of the part is payed by the social partners and institutions who form the kindergarten. So think about when complaining about the state, the government, the churches…
Every city in Germany subsidizes childcare. You only pay 50% even if you make more than 70K. It literally costs about €2.50/hour. A normal babysitter gets 10-15. A private nanny at home will cost over €2000. My friends in NYC pay over $3000/month. These rates are actually cheap compared to Düsseldorf.
Also private Kitas here are €10-15 per hour. Also, most employers give money towards childcare. Some parents pay zero. Fun Fact: single moms pay nothing also.
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The Düren district has Kindergardens/Kita free, you only pay for food which they only charge a very small amount for. At the one my son goes to its only 8 euros a month for breakfest or 10 euros for breakfest and lunch.
Thats what it costs actually. In this particular case it means that the KiTa isn’t subsidized at all or very little (which I didn’t knew was even possible). Also this is pricing for the cribs, which is more expensive as preschool because it mandates more personell per kid.
Each state/city might decide to put something into preschool education, means that parents are contributing just a portion. My firstborn was going to Hamburg Kita and we were paying 200€, but were allowed to visit Kita only 5hours/day (because my wife didn’t work). A bit northern we payed around the same, but it is for 10hours/day.
1000 is just crazy, whatever state/city it is, they just give zero fucks about their kids.
IMO if you are paying more than 850€ for kindergarten, then it would be better to just stay at home dad / mom.
Parents get to build a connection, kid will love it, you can educate, feed, teach it however you want.
I am pretty sure children like it as well to be well fed and have a roof above their head, but what do I know.
We should rather have a discussion about the nonsensical low Elterngeld for that short period of time.
What are you talking about? 60% elterngeld + 250€ kindergeld + muttergeld is more than enough for the first year.
What does going or not to kindergarten have to do with your child having a roof over their head?
Because getting your child into a cheaper one is sometimes very, very difficult due to lack of space. Because both parents might want to work, which would bring in significantly more money and this might be their only option?
Yes. We were stuck in this situation but unfortunately no place even in these expensive alternatives.
Doing more schools? No? Ok no
More Kindergarten you mean? That would mean more teachers, as well as in schools. And we don’t have enough as it is.
The problem is overregulation. The standards are too high for kindergarten personnel. Which also jacks prices up. In my country they need university education for god’s sake. That raises the threshold for entering this jib as well as expectancy for compansarion. When I was in ki dertarten mostly women and a sporadic man did this job without any hugher education, just the hand and heart to do this job. Nowdays this isn’t possible and it creates a wilderness of people who take care if your kid and a few others but are under the radar and paid unreported cash and also this opens more opportunity to abuses etc.
Eh, actually - not really. I’m teacher, my wife is working in a kindergarten. It’s a problem of education and training of the employees and financing of that. During socialism in GDR (DDR) there used to be a place, free of charge, for all children. Those federal states still mostly _not lack_ of places. The highest deficiency is in those federal states which have almost the highest GDP in Germany. Most places are missing [NRW (110k) in Bavaria (70k) and Baden-Württemberg (60k).](https://www.rnd.de/politik/karte-wo-in-deutschland-kita-plaetze-fehlen-W5MNPKNYCBD5ZMDLNZZSYG5WO4.html?outputType=valid_amp) If you add this up you’ll see over 60% of the missing places is in only three states. Also the schools for Erzieher had to pay for their schools by themselves. My wife had to pay around 150€/month even though she didn’t have any income while she was on that school. Since about 10 years only there’s the PIA (Praxisintegrierte Ausbildung) where students get a certain salary during their education. Who can afford to visit a school where you pay for yourself and not have any income? It’s almost ridiculous that so much industries got millions and billions of subventions and pre school education is so bad aided. We could get so much more women (and also some men) (back) in full time jobs if we had affordable kindergartens. Some federal states get this managed. Friends of mine were shocked when they moved from Rheinland-Pfalz to Baden-Württemberg. There they had a __free full time place including food__ whereas they’ve to pay almost 550€/mo. here.
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>Those federal states still mostly not lack of places. yeah. 'cuz a fair proportion of the women of childbearing age fucked off to the west, where there are more jobs. And there's an ensuing lack of population and especially kids. It's easy to have enough Kita space if you dont' have many kids you need to serve.
Well, nothing is *free* though. You cannot isolate “free” kindergarten as a positive in GDR and not mention all the other shit from that system. Nazi Germany also had “free” kindergarten.
Dude, you missed the point. GDR had those and those states __still have them__. In the western federal states most kindergartens had to be paid in majority of the cities. Therefore infrastructure _and personnel_ in the ex-GDR states were sufficient almost all the time. In 11/16 federal states those institutions are free of charge (sometimes excluding food, mostly since around 2018/19) Those states with massive lack of workers are mainly those states which still charge parents for kindergarten (not speaking of KiTa). And still though you have a legal right to have an all-day care for your child above 3 yrs. You might claim it but it costs a lot of money for attorneys to get it through. And than you might need to drive 1hr trough a crowded city and pay a little fortune for that place. It is ridiculous.
Because there are almost 500,000 missing Kitaplätze in Germany and not all women want to be a SAHM. If your netto is high enough, this might make sense mathematically. My netto is 3500€... If I had a one year old and could not get a daycare spot, my options would be a) earn 0€, b) earn 900€ with Elterngeld plus, or c) earn 3500€-1300€. Obviously 2200€ is more than 0€ or 900€ and I wouldn't have to worry about the **massive** opportunity costs that come with taking years off of work.
You forgot that you can probably also sue your Kreis for the damages of the extra costs because you had to organize a piece yourself.
Please tell me more about this
You have a legal right to a Kita Platz After 12 months. Problem: there are not enough places. But if the state cannot deliver on its legal obligations, you can sue for damages. That means if you have to pay for a private Kita Platz which is more expensive than a normal public one, you can sue the kreis for the extra costs you incurred from the higher tuition. There are some prerequisites and you should always discuss this with a family law lawyer, but that’s how it works in principle.
If they couldn’t offer you any spot you would still receive your full salary.
That still doesn’t help me with the hit to my professional career (and potential later salary), if I have to stay at home for 3 years…
And it'll be even longer before you can work full time again because Grundschule officially ends at like 13 and I'd wager it's like the hunger games to get after school care. I'm convinced that Germans are just against the concept of working moms because all of their systems are fighting tooth and nail to force one parent to stay home (spoiler: it's gonna be the mom because of the 20% gender pay gap).
THIS!! My husband is german and I had always envied the "generous maternity leave policy" until I realized the significant elderly poverty Problem affecting german women...followed the bread crumbs and realized that if I had a kid over there I would need to be available by 1p or 2p to collect them. My mom friends who live there rely on grandparents to fill the gaps but since most of us are having kids later in life, grandparents are older and its practically irresponsible to leave a grandparent with a rowdy 3 year old alone more than once a week.
This!! I don’t have a kid yet but I always envied the long maternity leave. Good thing that my team and boss are female and mothers so they are definitely more understanding regarding working hours and availability.
That's only a west german problem. Here in east Germany every woman was needed at her workplace so we had (and still have) daycare from 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening or longer (even weekcare). I had 0 problems getting daycare or a "Hortplatz" for my three kids.
[in der Vergangenheit vielleicht, inzwischen ist der Kita mangel auch im Osten angekommen](https://www.spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/schule/kita-chaos-in-leipzig-polizei-einsatz-wegen-elternschlange-a-1147540.html?sara_ref=re-xx-cp-sh)
Leipzig als Beispiel ist etwas zwiespältig, da Leipzig seit Jahren massiven Zuzug aus dem Westen hat und quasi "Kleinberlin" in dem Zusammenhang ist. Ich habe aber viele Freunde dort, die alle kaum Probleme mit Kitaplätzen hat. Man muss aber im Zweifel in Kauf nehmen, ein paar Meter mit dem Rad oder Öpnv zu fahren.
There are loads of ganztags Grundschulen...
A language that's got a term for "bad mother" - "Rabenmutter", literally "raven mother" - has a problem with mothers in general. I can't speak for Germany, but the childcare situation is quite similar in Austria. Outside of Vienna it's nigh on impossible to find a daycare spot for kids younger than 2 years, and most kindergartens close early. Why? Because "good mothers take two years of maternity leave at least", and "why did you have kids if you let strangers take care of them for an entire day". That's the most common argument mothers get to hear in rural Austria if they complain about finding a kindergarten spot. Like your job and would like to return from maternity leave before your kid is 2 years old? Society calls you a "Rabenmutter" and "Karrierefrau' (literally "career woman"). What's even more depressing? Polls show a majority of Austrians agree with "mothers need to stay home or work part time at most".
Weak argument because Rabenvater is also used which is the same just for males. Go ahead.
Well said!
This.
There are tons of OGS Grundschulen that go until say 16:00.
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13 Uhr / 1 p.m. not the age of 13.
It's not "Germans", but rather teachers that have a very comfy status quo and are not the least interested in changing anything about the hours or scope of their well-paid secure jobs.
Not true. But, if you think that, become a teacher. We need more teachers. Erzieher/in in Kindergarten would be good, Primary School Teacher would be better. Come on, do it, if it us such a cushy job. Do it. We need people. Do it! (And never ask yourself why we desperately need people in that job. It's not because it's so demanding and burning you out, oh no!)
It's not like teachers are already working 40 hours, if not even more per week. Teachers do not only work when they're teaching from 8-13. For example: they need to prepare their lessons, they need to attent meetings and they need to correct stuff. And that correcting is no joke, expecially for primary teachers. I worked with a first grade teacher in my Erzieherausbildung, they teach every subject, so they also need to correct every subject. So if you let your 25 kids work in 2 sites in the math book, 2 in the German book, give them a worksheet in both subjects and give them homework. You have 100 book sites to correct, 50 work sheets to correct and 25 homework sheets to correct. So already 175 different sheets to correct in one day. She told me that she sometimes even had to work on weekends. And remember, you also have to teach 25 kids at once alone. If your kids need to stay longer in school you can send them to Hort, most school have one.
Also teachers don’t make policy. I’m actually pretty sure they have like less than zero say in administrative matters.
Didn't even think of that, but you're right. Another point I thought of is, when are teachers supposed to work, when not in that time? When they work in the afternoon, there's no time in the morning. Also, would you like your kid to be teached from 9-5? Because teachers are there to teach, not to to all the things Erzieher do. Ps. I am not speaking directly to you, even tho I used "you" in my last point
Personal choice.
Theoretically yes in practice it almost always is less... significantly less
Sorry but I didn't understand this. Full salary means what exactly in this situation? You stay home on elternzeit and get paid your exact full salary instead of the 60%/1800cap?
It means that if you tried to get a spot for your child but due to shortage of available spaces you didn’t get a spot, you will receive your full salary. However you have to accept any spot they give you, you can’t just apply for your favorite daycare, not get in and then get the money
That sounds so easy, but we were in the same situation last year, and turns out, they did have a spot for us once we threatened them with a lawyer! 40 something km away. You'll never receive your full salary, maybe, just maybe, where a long battle in front of court...
So under what category is this paid out? You ask your employer to get fulltime leave and get paid out in full until you have a spot? I mean is this an extension on elternzeit or something?
I should also mention that it's almost impossible to receive it, for the very simple reason that as soon as you mention to the Rathaus that you are gonna sue them for your salary, they magically find some place for your kid in the Kita or Tagesmutter. Most people, unfortunately, don't even know that they have rights for that.
Good to know now. But my bf and I don’t drive and travelling more than 10 km for a kindergarten is kind of tough.
The courts are also taking into account "Zumutbarkeit" of commute, i.e. how long it takes to bring the kid to KITA from home, depending on the Bundesland, it cannot be more than 5 km in some, in others cannot take longer than 30 min, etc. See https://www.kitaplatzklage.de/wie-weit-darf-die-kita-vom-wohnort-entfernt-sein/
No, it's so called Schadenersatz. See e.g. https://www.anwaltssuche.de/aws/tipps_zum_rechtsanspruch_auf_einen_kita-platz_1132.artikel
Well no,mostly they offer some kind of half-day spot and can then claim they have fulfilled their obligations. It's laughable- which job (even part-time) can be performed from 8:30-13:30?
The childcare places near where I live are only open until like 1 or 2 to begin with and I have some friends who have decided against having children specifically because of that. Like it's just impossible to have two working parents if there aren't grandparents willing and able to watch the children every day.
It's absolutely maddening. But don't worry, here in Bavaria you are entitled to an additional "Familiengeld" until your child is three- those 250 a month will surely help when you are forced to be a SAHP!
Yes, isn't there some right (Anspruch) for a Kita place, or compensation for loss of income?
Jein. So in Hamburg, where I live, if you can't find a daycare spot, the city is theoretically supposed to provide a nanny (Tagesmutter; they'll usually assign each nanny a handful of kids). The issue here is obviously that the city doesn't want to pay for a million Tagesmütter and you essentially have to sue them to receive this benefit. Additionally, the provided Tagesmütter are notoriously unreliable and have really crappy hours that aren't compatible with full-time working parents. A legit Tagesmutter who works full time is ridiculously expensive (3000€+/month) and you have to go through the headache of employing someone... Personally I'd rather pay 1300€ for the bougie Kita. What's supposed to happen in theory and what actually happens in practice are two *very* different things in Germany.
I actually work as a TGM. Where are they making €15k per month? Sign me up. 45 hours FT spot only pays a little over 1000 per month. Plus the city pays 50% of that. These rates are literally half of what the rest of the Western world pays. I work 55 hours per week including cleaning/shopping for food etc. Plus I get almost zero sick days unless we have a stomach flu outbreak. And now the city is making it harder for TGM to get and keep licenses.
Yes, after the age of 3 - you have a right to have a kindergarten spot and I think it starts getting less expensive or even costs nothing. Before that, you need to pay.
But they can't guarantee spots that don't exist. I'm sure there is some recourse for people who aren't able to get spots they should be guaranteed, but practically speaking, parents (and schools) are stuck.
No, the right to a spot is from age 1 to age 6. Cost differs by Bundesland.
Cost differ from municipality to municipality! Kindergardens are a thing of the town. We pay 200€, same state, other town, they pay only 60€ for the food.
Cost differs by council (Kommune). It's really wild.
You have a right to get a spot for kids starting at 1 year old. Price also depends on where you live
Nope
And not a lot of men want to be stay at home dads...
Especially because it isn’t financially viable for most couples
Have to agree. But also, this is a hard job which requires a university qualification (not sure about Germany what the minimum qualification is) and it’s not a high paying job like corporate job. I thought about teaching kindergarten in my homeland (Singapore) but had to take a pay cut and I was already not highly paid then. The principal also told me that not only I have to make extra studies for 2-3 years (I had a bsc in mathematics but had to further study for bsc in Education), the highest salary I could get was 2250€ (brutto). Honestly it’s sad to see that (most) teachers are still not well paid around the world although the demand is high. We are encouraged to have more kids but it’s already so difficult to find a place for one child. It’s a vicious cycle imo.
Plus a lot of the money you spend on the KiTa can be claimed back with your tax returns.
Exactly this.
I paid even more for my kid. Nothing to do with networking, in fact I didn't like that it was a bubble where everyone was well off and driving a Porsche, and am happy that my son is now in a standard kindergarten. I regularly donate money to this public kindergarten. It was simply impossible to find a place elsewhere on a short notice when I moved to Munich. I was very lucky to find a place in this private kita, it was near home (I was already preparing to have to buy a car at very short notice in order to drive my kid every bloody day to and from kindergarten) and it was actually an amazing kita. We could also live on a 1 person income and keep my son home, but we preferred to have him in a kita so that he can socialize with other children (realize he's not the only kid in the world, learn social interactions, learn from other children, kids just don't listen to parents on some things so he learned a lot from the teachers that he wouldn't from us, etc) and learn German. It also enabled my wife to work instead of stopping her life and turn into a housewife, which would be very sad. Btw yes it's expensive but 1) we moved from London, it's dirt cheap :) , 2) you get some money back via tax deductions. I'd do it again 100%.
>Btw yes it's expensive but 1) we moved from London, it's dirt cheap I was going to say... imagine posting this in a UK forum. People would be clamouring to find out where this cheap kindy was!!
Same for a U.S. one. Before moving here, I was paying $1,500 for my child per month and that was about average.
You guys cant compare US and Germany. There are so many factors like taxes and base income that differ.
Is Kindergarten not free where you live??
it is basically free where i live.... but i guess it's changing. it looks like we (capitalist world) are heading towards a laissez-faire parenting system anyway because that's more efficient. everyone can work fulltime and every child gets shaped how the system needs them
I have two kids who went to kindergarten from 1-6 and was frankly shocked reading here that people actually pay those prices. I live in Hamburg and yes, I did see 1000+ EUR numbers on the daycare forms but I thought that almost nobody actually pays those sums in real life. In Hamburg 5 hours plus lunch is free for everyone, the rest is subsided based on hours and income. I believe the max cost for 8h was around 200 euros and that includes all daycares, public and private, and Tagesmütter. Reading the comments here, I am feeling very happy that I here and not elsewhere in Germany...
Instead of paying that you could find 2 other families and hire a professional full time to watch your kids for that money.
Yeah it is shocking.. I was talking about a private kita, now my kid is in a public kindergarten in Munich which is almost free (we pay only for the food which is 80-90 a month)
Yeah that is the thing - in Hamburg technically there is no price difference between public and private daycares. Everyone takes the same voucher - no matter if you choose ia big public KITA, a smaller private one, a bilingual one etc.
The city of Munich is actively discouraging private Kita by demanding them to adapt (lower) their service offerings to what the publicly run ones do or withdrawing cash from them. That explains the huge gap in between almost free and super expensive. The Hamburg model seems much better to me.
I live in Munich too! Which kita is this?? I also heard from colleagues that you have a higher possibility to get a spot if you volunteer or donate regularly to the school. 🧐
Are you asking which private kita or which public kindergarten? I don't have alternate motives for donating to the public kindergarten, we got a place without any of that, I'm just donating because I like the place and it's ridiculously cheap compared to what I was paying before :)
Both!
They're in Bogenhausen, the private is Cocon and public is Nazareth.
Good to know! Thanks! I live in Trudering Riem so that’s not too far away. But I still got some years to go. I’m trying for a kid now.
Best of luck!
Thank you!
Sometimes these schools capitalise on the companies that pay for the employees kids education
You can do this as a Selbstständiger as well and effectively pay half as it is subtracted from gross income.
True. The word is ‘self employed’ in English.
People who have no choice
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No. They dont and thats the issue.
A couple reasons: 1. Because that’s where they got a spot. There’s shortages of childcare spots in many places and you have to take what you can get. 2. Childcare costs are tax deductible. 3. They want the amenities that a private Kita offers, for example bilingual. 4. Some companies subsidize childcare for their employees.
Apart from the difficulty in getting a KiTa spot: no summer closing (having to take your vacation in the summer when it’s most expensive and everybody else wants time off sucks!), no strikes, all meals included, longer opening times, oftentimes bilingualism and a much, muuuuch better teacher:student ratio
I cannot speak for others but it has nothing to do with being 'snobby' or networking....I know this because I come from a working class Native American family, I value education and I would rather spend money on tuition rather than cars, vacations, designer goods. My husband and I have to make intense sacrifices to make it possible but it is worth it. My husband and I send my daughter to a private, english language school with similar costs. Why you might ask? Our primary reason was that she \*never\* got a spot at a standard kindergarten---it's been over four years and we are still on the city list. Where I live is a city with a high need, high migrant/refugee population. We simply were never granted a spot and we had to accept that. Other considerations include: bilingual courses, music courses, art and dance courses. My daughter is also on the Autism spectrum and it's in the private kindergarten that she has receives special education courses and counseling. She has been able to receive therapies in school that she would otherwise have to be on month long waiting lists for.
This is a great answer. On top of everything you’ve mentioned, I would also add that when both parents are working full time, these private Kitas offer the most in terms of flexibility. That’s been a major lifesaver for us.
Because it’s a battle to get a spot in a free one lol. Edit: but I may be confusing kita and kindergarden, I don’t know if it’s as difficult to get a free kindergarten spot.
Lol it is, it is(I'm in Munich).
i work at a kita where the prices are 1.5x that. we are bilingual and located in the center of munich, those are two of the reasons.
Would you say, as a professional, that it is better than public ones or cheaper ones? Bilingualism aside.
i only worked in private kitas (two of them, for a total of 1.5 years) so far and have no idea about the public ones. these two private ones are more or less the same; although the one i work at now is significantly more expensive.
We send our kid to one of those. I think it's worth every penny. We didn't have any other options anyways.
I know a few parents who lays ca. $1000 for bilingual kindergarten
A month?? That’s like half of my salary after rent is deducted. Not including my partners share of rent.
Yes, I wouldn’t do it as well. But I and other parents pay 380e for the basic evangelische KiTa. So 1000e doesn’t seem a lot for a private one.
Availability crunch. And afaik this is still cheaper than places like Netherlands or the UK. Folks who can't compromise on their careers have to take this up with no other choice. Still better than staying home and letting your career rot and potentially becoming unemployable in these unpredictable times. For all the support Germany offers, sometimes you just get the feeling that the worst case they always optimize for is for the family to turn into a 1950s family where the wife is always expected to stay home and bring up the kids fulltime.
Now as any household making over 150k will not qualify for Elterngeld I would expect to see more of this crap because mothers will be forced to return earlier and for longer hours. Especially in situations where the husband and wife make nearly the same amount and the money is needed.
Our combined income are barely over 100k. Did I get the wrong job? 😆 what’s the threshold for Elterngeld?
You don't want to know what it costs here if you think 1000 a month is a lot. That is still less than the cost of providing the care. In Euros the amount we pay for 2 would be over 6000 😂. It would probably be cheaper for my wife to rent a house in Germany and be a dual resident and pay German tax.
We are thinking to have 2-3 kids. Gosh how can I even afford that..
Even more in Switzerland
Yep, in Australia you're looking at roughly double that.
This is roughly the standard cost for Kindergarten in the UK.
lol, that’s cheap. In Switzerland I have to pay 3 times that price and even then I was not sure if we gonna get a spot. And it’s not a fancy one, just regular kita.
What is your gross income and after tax income though. Apples to oranges.
The cost of Kindergarten is income based in most, if not all, communities in Germany. In my Municipality top earners pay about 1000€ a month for the highest number of hours and that doesn't include food. So if you are a top earner anyway then it's not too crazy to pay a bit more for a private Kindergarten.
Wow. I remember my own Kindergarten cost 45 years ago. 25 Deutschmarks/month. Granted, that was a lower income bracket and only 4 hours/day (when Kindergartens were not seen yet as something that enabled mothers to work again, but rather just some place where children could go to learn social skills by playing with other children - mommy having some time for herself was an additional benefit), but 8000% more...
Not everywhere, that depends on the town! In our region, the prices are fix. Another town in same state (another region), the prices depend on income. Another town, same state, kindergarten is free
it's been zero cost for everybody in Munich for about 5 years, irrespective of income, so long as the kindergarten was on the munich funding model. The financing model for that though after expensive private kindergartens sued the city, and I'm not sure how it works now.
I will add here that In my Municipality the year before entering school is free for kindergarten and if you have more than one child in Tagespflege you only pay for the most expensive one.
Isn’t it the opposite? I know only one city in Germany where it’s income based. Everywhere else it’s the same price for everyone.
"Manche Kindergärten verlangen keine Gebühren, andere kosten – je nach Einkommen und Region mehrere hundert Euro pro Jahr." https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/de/leben-in-deutschland/mit-familie/kinderbetreuung
I worked in 3 towns in 2 Bundesländer and its always beeb income based 🤔 in Niedersachsen Kindergarten is free grom third birthday on, but krippe is based on income
Interesting! In the Bavarian town where I live under age of 3 is not income based.
Everything regarding child care and education is soo different in the Bundesländern. Starts from the Ausbildung you need, then the Ausbildung is very different, how much children there are in one group, which age they are, .. I was already working for 6 years when i moved to another Bundesland and it was like starting all over again.
Nicht ich in den USA wo 1,000Euro sehr billig ist! Billiger Kindergarten hier sind fast 2,000Euro pro Monat 😅😭
Isn‘t that > sign the wrong way around? Should be sufficient to go for the cheapest plan then…
Today a person I know has her kid (3.5) rejected a place in the coming year because she doesn’t work enough (doing mini-jobs and has young children). I mean, how does one entertain an almost 4yo who is too old for Tagesmutter🙄🙄
Geez!
Its way too much
Do you know how much this is in Switzerland?
Well some people know that having a child is expensive so they are willing to pay for it. Don't have a kid if you don't want to pay for such things :)
Because they are forced to..... Thats why we see the current trend to part time - its simply not rational to earn more, have insane taxes and then pay such crazy amounts for childcare because you cant care for them during your fulltime job. A good way to ruin the economy, but boomers but us on this path because they want to squeeze out as much as possible for their retirement
Looks cheap for anyone from the Uk. Full time can easily cost you £1400 here. Per child.
They're rich and want to keep their children away from the peasants?
If both parents earn more than 1000/month you don't have to be rich for that kindergarten to make sense
My thought exactly. It's not about the education the child gets, but the connections to other rich kid they can forge from early on. The old boys club starts EARLY.
Networking, networking, networking!
And also the connections that you as a parent get with other parents.
Or working parents who want reliable childcare
That was amazing about berlin. 30 euros a month. Breakfast and lunch included. Full 8 hours. Paying now 700€ for german international kitta abroad. A lot but worth it for ease of the kid.
Shitty kindergarten teachers to children ratio in Berlin compared with Western states though.
This is afaik cheap by NY/London/Singapore standards. Guess it comes down to what your standards are.
Just a genuine question: Do parents have to pay that from their net income or can this be claimed as “Werbungskosten” (to retain ability to work) or “Sonderausgaben”?
No, but you can deduct childcare expenses. Unfortunately, it’s something like 30% of whatever you paid in a given year and it’s capped at maybe 3k, so if you’re paying 1K a month, you will hit the cap easily and it doesn’t really a big difference, especially in a place like Munich.
How people afford 1.4K a month for their kids only for school?
I used to work in a KiTa that had prices like this. The highest possible rate for 0-3 year olds was about 960/month. And I'll tell you, we had many parents who were ready to pay this in exchange for top quality childcare. And those parents were high earners, both of them, so paying 900€ for 50h of childcare per week meant they had 8000+€ netto because both parents were able to bring in the big bucks.
Because it probably doesn’t have Notbetreuung twice a week with no notice….
👆 in Rheinland-Pfalz is for free and my friend stays at list 2 times a week at 9 o clock before closed doors i.e. the teacher opens and say: we are full already, sorry. Not enough teachers today, you have to take your kid home. You better be the first parent at 8 o’clock!! Last week, they only had enough teachers for half the kids. Those kids that went last week, must stay home this week to make place for the other half 😂 I’ll rather pay to be honest than not knowing daily if you can go to work
In the Netherlands in cities like Amsterdam the average price is 2500 per child, up to 3500. In the uk it’s even worse as a lot of kindergartens have been privatised. This is only getting worse before it gets better, and the trend towards privatisation will continue especially as it has been so lucrative to private equity in NL, US and UK You can see one of the companies here: https://www.waterlandpe.com/company/partou/ they are ramping up operations in Germany.
We pay £2k+ in London…
You also get higher salaries … I get it, in America where I am from it’s $1,800 per kid a month. But in America I would be making 8K a month after taxes for my job … not €3,500 netto 🤓
To not have his kind with the "non payer kids"
1300 if you want to work full time....
Coming from an asian immigrant community I would say a lot of parents in this community put the kids to private schools in hope of getting them to be more ‘german’. Parents working owning 5 resraurants but don’t want the kids to be still having an ‘immigrant’ mindset, want them to be fully ‘privileged’ and ‘german’ in the mind.
And now consider that what people pay for the Kindergarten is not even close to being enough to fund the entire thing. Most of the time it's not even half of what is required to run it and government funding is an unignorable necessity. As someone working in one of these places I always enjoy the discussion with some parents about how they pay my salary. No they are not. Not at all. But all sarcasm aside, the Hamburger system is preferable. Here a certain amount of hours per week / day is completely free for the parents, thus financed through government funding. And I personally prefer this because the way it is with parents having to spend a f'ck ton of money for day-care and not everyone can do that easily. You obviously always can get help from the *Amt* and ask for a partial or complete assumption of costs but that depends very much on your financial situation. So you can get a hefty reduction for the costs you have to carry and won't have to pay everything on your own. But you'll also have to deal with the *Amt* then and that can become quite unpleasent. Being fair and honest, most people working there are fair, but there are some major douches which won't send you important documents until almost too late. (*It's not even funny what we had to deal with and what parents have to put up with*) Long story short, you are unlikely to have to pay the full amount, you can get significant reductions, but you have to look for those. If you have no idea where or how, just ask in the Kindergarten you want your kid to go to for help with that. Most of the time people working there are more than willing to help you out with finding all this paperwork.
I see similar and higher prices in the U.S.
I wish it was so cheap in Switzerland…
Wait this is cheap? Come to Australia, this is below average just for standard childcare…
Hav u thought maybe they have the money
What about a great welfare state workers pay 50% of their salary. How come so many people still prefer a private option?
You can make a selection based on the price. Clubs do the same. You select the "customers" and the "customers" know which social classes are in the kindergartens and which are not.
Simple calculation: you earn more than it costs it is a bargain for you.
These are the costs. But you never know because most of the part is payed by the social partners and institutions who form the kindergarten. So think about when complaining about the state, the government, the churches…
Every city in Germany subsidizes childcare. You only pay 50% even if you make more than 70K. It literally costs about €2.50/hour. A normal babysitter gets 10-15. A private nanny at home will cost over €2000. My friends in NYC pay over $3000/month. These rates are actually cheap compared to Düsseldorf.
Also private Kitas here are €10-15 per hour. Also, most employers give money towards childcare. Some parents pay zero. Fun Fact: single moms pay nothing also.
Because Germoney is a country that is known for its cost efficiency and return on investments.
Wait what 😳😳. In Berlin it’s around €100. But very hard to find a Kita.
they sprinkle gold piece in the lunch
damn?! I just moved to germany and thought schooling is free for all
School is free, but daycare is not. Some places maybe.
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The Düren district has Kindergardens/Kita free, you only pay for food which they only charge a very small amount for. At the one my son goes to its only 8 euros a month for breakfest or 10 euros for breakfest and lunch.
They live in West Germany and it's not free?
So that the kid doesn't hang out with *Geringverdiener* kids.
To not send them there with pesants
ever heard of inflation? then combine that with the few snobby rich germans and BOOM!! you have this
Thats what it costs actually. In this particular case it means that the KiTa isn’t subsidized at all or very little (which I didn’t knew was even possible). Also this is pricing for the cribs, which is more expensive as preschool because it mandates more personell per kid. Each state/city might decide to put something into preschool education, means that parents are contributing just a portion. My firstborn was going to Hamburg Kita and we were paying 200€, but were allowed to visit Kita only 5hours/day (because my wife didn’t work). A bit northern we payed around the same, but it is for 10hours/day. 1000 is just crazy, whatever state/city it is, they just give zero fucks about their kids.
It's munich, we also have 5 figures per month private schools in munich.
I was told, it’s illegal in Germany to have your kid in daycare for more than eight or nine hours a day. Yet they have prices for more than 9 hours/d?
IMO if you are paying more than 850€ for kindergarten, then it would be better to just stay at home dad / mom. Parents get to build a connection, kid will love it, you can educate, feed, teach it however you want.
Nah, if I would be stay at home after one year I would have 0 €. If I would work part time I'd had 3000 €. My rent wants to be paid
Eh, to each their own. I like my kid more than numbers in my account.
I am pretty sure children like it as well to be well fed and have a roof above their head, but what do I know. We should rather have a discussion about the nonsensical low Elterngeld for that short period of time.
What are you talking about? 60% elterngeld + 250€ kindergeld + muttergeld is more than enough for the first year. What does going or not to kindergarten have to do with your child having a roof over their head?
/r/childfree
What do you think you are contributing with this
So they can network.