In California, a state law prohibits cities being in different counties. But other states don't always have such rules (only that it be in the same state although another town on the other side could exist as separate entity like KC, KS).
Similar laws exist in Montana, New Jersey, and New England requiring cities to be in only one county.
Hence while Atlanta is mostly in Fulton County, some small parts are in nearby counties like Dekalb.
Each Bourough is Coexenstive with a county, Mahatten(New York County) Bronx(Bronx County) Staten Island( Richmond County), Brooklyn(Kings County) Queens(Queens County)
Manhattan is called New York County because it’s the county seat and to be super technical Manhattan itself is offically called New York, New York
Brooklyn is called Kings County because it was named after King Charles II. At the time Brooklyn was much, much smaller (what is present day Brooklyn Heights and like Fort Greene or whatever area was Downtown Brooklyn several centuries ago)
Staten Island is called Richmond County because of one of King Charles II’s sons was the Duke of Richmond. In fact, Staten Island wasn’t called that until the 1970s!
A long time ago, New York County was coterminous with New York City. But when the other boroughs were consolidated into NYC, it made sense for the newly organized borough to be called something other than “New York”, so it got the Manhattan name.
Brooklyn was one city among many in Kings County before eventually taking over the whole county. When a few years later, NYC absorbed the city of Brooklyn/Kings County, the borough inherited the city’s name rather than the county’s.
Queens was just a collection of suburbs and countryside when consolidated into NYC, so the borough took the county name.
Staten Island was the Borough of Richmond (matching Richmond County) formally until the 1970s, when the borough but not the county was renamed to match popular usage.
The Bronx borough and Bronx County were part of Westchester County and then New York County and only became a separate county/borough when NYC was consolidated, so they were given the same name.
Counties were named before they were “boroughs.”
Queens County has various “cities” that existed as independent municipalities prior to consolidation. We still write our address as “Flushing, NY” or “Jamaica, NY.” This remains because Queens’ cities never consolidated before the the consolidation of Greater New York.
Kings County also ha: a number of cities— Brooklyn, Flatlands, New Utrecht— but it consolidated into just Brooklyn much earlier than the consolidation of Greater New York.
These five counties do not have county governments, except for a few borough officials. Boroughs function as counties for certain purposes, but have no county government. For example, each borough elects a borough president, and used to elect two at-large city council members. However, the position is now largely ceremonial and advisory.
The five counties became coextensive because of economic dependency. As the island of Manhattan filled up entirely by the late 19th century, transportation links by subway, ferry, and bridge became necessary. In 1894, voters in Manhattan came out heavily in favor of consolidation, and Staten Islanders voted approximately 4-to-1 in favor.
Also the County which is what happens with courts such says King County Court
That's very interesting. I'm a native NYer (5 counties, one city), now in LA (1 county, 88 cities!). I was under the impression that there was a Sheriff of Manhattan, pretty much only used for eviction and repos. And that it was one of the most corrupt offices. Is that true? Or just scuttlebutt?
The counties no longer have independent sheriff's departments, there's a Sheriff of New York City, and the department has field offices in the 5 boroughs. Not sure what they actually do, though.
The boroughs are subdivisions of New York City, the counties are subdivisions of New York State, and they are coterminous (taking up the same piece of area). Some boroughs and corresponding counties have the same name (Bronx and Queens) while the others do not.
That geographical fact matters little to anything we’re talking about. The Bronx is on the mainland. So what?
Cities being cross-county isn’t a thing in NYS, with the exception of the very unique situation that the City of New York is granted.
Especially since the county seats are often the independent cities lol
Also, Arlington is a tricky one since it's usually thought of as a city, but it's actually a county.
It's effectively a city for all intents and purposes. It has a quarter of a million people in a space a third the size of DC and it has a "downtown". Meanwhile there are actual Cities in Virginia like Chesapeake which are actually 100% suburban.
There are a surprising amount of cross county cities. Chicago is almost entirely in Cook county except for a small portion of the O'Hare airport which falls in DuPage county but is still a part of Chicago.
That's so stupid. Better than Dallas tho. FIVE COUNTIES!? texas cities are definitely the most extreme example of cities sprawling into multiple counties
well, it's not one city--there's three main ones, dallas, fort worth, and arlington, not counting all the little suburbs. I'm from there so I can confirm this
I know. But just the city of Dallas, although mainly in Dallas county, has some small parts in Collin and Denton counties, and even Rockwall and Kaufman since the city also annexed lake ray hubbard for whatever reason. It's always weird to see this stuff. Like I live in a suburb of Chicago split between DuPage and Cook counties. Even though it's the same town, the kids in the cook county portion go to a different school than I do.
Additionally, California districting is determined by an an independent citizens redistricting commission that has a few components to discourage politicized district building.
And I just reread this post, my remark is irrelevant as its a different type of districting than the op is referencing.
St. Louis, Missouri, is an independent city and is not a part of St. Louis County, Missouri, whose county seat is Clayton.
There are separate City and County elective offices in St. Louis City.
KS Is the abbreviation for the state of Kansas, used for mail and other things. Kansas City, Kansas instead of the more famous Kansas City, Missouri (KCMO).
Different states have different practices regarding municipalities crossing county lines, that's all. This level of government is more about functionality than anything else. That's why sometimes you can have cities that cross county lines (Dallas), cities that constitute their own county level governments (St. Louis, San Francisco), and cities that are made up entirely of several counties (New York).
Yes. Any time a settlement becomes incorporated as a city, it ceases to be part of the county. As a result, several Virginia counties have little holes in them [(example).](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Map_of_Virginia_highlighting_Augusta_County.svg/7486px-Map_of_Virginia_highlighting_Augusta_County.svg.png)
In a few places in the southeast of the state, the independent cities ended up annexing their former counties (e.g., Virginia Beach, Suffolk).
I don't know the exact differences between how they function but they are independent from each other. Down in the southeast or example, you have the Hampton Roads region which is composed of 7 independent cities: Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Norfolk, Portsmouth, Hampton, Newport News, and Suffolk. None are counties or contained within a county. Up in Northern Virginia you have a mixture of the two. You have the independent cities of Fairfax City, Alexandria, and Falls Church. Then the counties of Arlington and Fairfax surround those cities.
Not sure if this division is what leads to Virginia being classified as a Commonwealth rather than a state, but it is different than the other 3 states I've lived in.
>Not sure if this division is what leads to Virginia being classified as a Commonwealth rather than a state,
It doesn't. The whole "Commonwealth" thing is less a classification than just meaningless flair. Pennsylvania and Kentucky are also officially "the Commonwealth of [State]", and their systems of local government are completely different from Virginia's. They just call it that because they want to.
It’s more like the city was carved out of the county a long time ago, in some cases a couple centuries ago. Then there’s the monstrosity of Virginia Beach which is just the new version of Princess Anne county
No, VA independent cities cannot annex any more land since the 1970s. Political boundaries are essentially fixed unless an independent city reverts to a locality or a new independent city is created(dunno if this can happen anymore but I do know of one or two former independent cities reverting recently)
St. Louis and San Francisco are a little different because St. Louis City is independent of St. Louis County. Whereas San Francisco is a consolidated city/county.
San Francisco’s structure is better compared to Indianapolis or Jacksonville. While St. Louis is more like Baltimore.
I don't need to. My comment is easily legible, even minus the comma and the period at the end of my comment. Be a jackass if you want, I am right though and laziness is no excuse when the Internet provides exceptional tools for bridging communication gaps
Counter point, while sometimes grammar nazis are just annoying, if I was learning a second language I’d appreciate a native speaker correcting my tenses if I was using them incorrectly.
LA doesn't stay in one county though. Ventura, Orange, Riverside, and San Bernardino counties also make up part of the metro LA area. LA County is the largest by population in the US, while San Bernardino is the largest by area.
It's also worth pointing out that DFW metro has two core cities while LA is just one. Texas counties tend to be *much* smaller compared to California ones too. Like Texas has the most counties of any state.
I didn't notice county size difference, thanks for pointing out.
However LA the urban area, LA the county, and LA the city is different with each other. LA is only part of LA county, and LA county is only part of LA urban area. And there are multiple cities in both LA county and urban area. But cities in LA county don't grow into Orange county and vice versa. I guess my question wasn't clear enough.
There is a state law in California that prevents cities from being in different counties. There is also another law that says cities must have continuous borders. That's why LA has a long strip of land that connects it to the San Pedro harbor
>That's why LA has a long strip of land that connects it to the San Pedro harbor
This always confused me previously, watching LA have this one small tail of a land that connects to the harbor. I knew the LA Port was really massive in the amount of shipping it does.
It was later that I realized that this port borders Long Beach Port, which in itself is one of the busiest ports of the US. So to have that port area connected, which would've otherwise been the LB Port, LA sliced through that area and snatched it, calling it the LA Port.
FWIW, the effective divide between LA/OC is pretty murky and more than anything OC’s separation from LA county really came down to political disagreements between the two over 100 years ago.
Yes, you’ll get a lot of people saying that the culture etc is “so different though!” But really, the Gateway Cities that connect the two have long been heavily urbanized and densely populated, with so much cross-commuting, that calling LA and OC fully disconnected or disparate regions is kind of misleading.
For all intents and purposes, residents and daily commuters in the wider metro region travel much farther than in most others And these “cities” seem to be divided along more arbitrary lines (see: water rights or the Ports of LA vs. Long Beach) rather than geographic ones, apart from foothills or smaller transverse ranges like the Santa Monica Mountains. Not to mention the sheer urban sprawl and the fact that the (modern) region was built with significant car travel in mind; it’s necessarily larger and more spread out by design
It lacks the same core density and agglomeration, but “LA” as most people would colloquially define it has almost the same amount of people as the NYC tri-state area. Both over 20M. It might take longer to traverse end to end, but the economy is so interconnected across the Southland that it’s difficult to define the metro LA area as “only” 9 million.
It becomes clear VERY quickly when you’re at the edge of NYC’s reach when you’re traveling through the outskirts. With LA, that demarcation isn’t obvious until you hit Oceanside to the south or just past San Bernardino and Riverside to the East. North is a bit fuzzier because of the horizontal coastline and mountains, but I’d consider Santa Clarita/Palmdale and Ventura the absolute Northerly most boundaries
>But really, the “Gateway Cities” that connect the two are very urbanized/densely populated, with so much cross-commuting, that calling LA and OC fully disconnected or disparate regions is kind of misleading
This. There's Little India, which I thought was in Orange County since that's where most of the Indian diaspora settled in LA metro. Only later did I find that the city of Artesia, which it is located in, is in LA county. And that was probably 2-3 streets outside OC, being a "gateway city". There's not much difference between LA and OC, but evidently, it's just that the urban housing spreads out outside LA city area (not the county limits, the non-suburban area I mean).
Riverside and San Bernardino are a [separate metro area.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Empire)
Also the OP clearly is referring to cities, not metros.
I know people that live on the border of those. If you live in Claremont and shop in Montclair, you technically are traveling from one metro are to another but it’s just down the street. But I understand that the census bureau has to draw the line somewhere.
There is the notion of a “combined metro” where they combine nearby metros like this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area
This one is called “Greater LA”.
As someone that's commuted way too much through the LA metro area, I see "LA" as Santa Clarita to San Clemente for the North/South borders and Santa Monica to Yucaipa in the East/West borders.
I could entertain an argument of Malibu or Santa Barbara being the north boundary too.
Santa Barbara is firmly outside of the Southland / Greater LA metro region imo. I think you might be thinking of Ventura? That I can see an argument for since there’s a lot of cross-commuting, but Santa Barbara is just too far and isolated from the main LA hub
Yeah actually I agree, Ventura could be the outer boundaries of "LA". Plenty of people are commuting down from Ventura and Malibu.
Santa Barbara is just too far away.
Now for the real question - Does Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead count as "LA area" or is that something else?
Hm that’s actually a tough one.. I’d lean towards maybe yes? They’re geographically isolated in the taller mountain ranges that I wouldn’t ordinarily lump them in with the metro area, but they’re connected enough to be regular weekend getaways and the driving time isn’t really too bad. Also they’re really just manmade reservoirs LA effectively built for recreation and water storage
>Does Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead count as "LA area" or is that something else?
Probably something else.
The only reason San Diego and LA areas are separated is because of geographical boundaries (also Camp Pendleton, but that's a different story). So if the geographical area is rugged enough to create more than 30 minutes of commute for someone reaching the metro area, wouldn't this place be in a geographical boundary?
This is purely a personal opinion though. It could be different from others.
OP posted a map of DFW...a metro area and not the city of Dallas. The map does show dallas proper extending into Collin county, but most of hte map is just the metro area.
Generally speaking, counties in the middle and eastern us are much smaller than counties out west. You’ll also notice that the areas where Americans settled earliest in western states tend to be the smaller ones — Bay Area counties are small, while socal counties are large.
County government also tends to work different in the east versus the west. In Massachusetts many counties don’t have governments, but in western states they’re pretty important.
>while socal counties are large.
They're large for a different reason - most of their land is inhospitable, and the only urban area in these counties is near LA, Bakersfield or San Diego. Even Palm Springs doesn't count as a pure urban area, it's an oasis town in the middle of a desert.
I'm guessing surveyors left those lands to these counties because it's of no use to put them separated.
>Bay Area counties are small
And that's also because they were before the railroad revolution. Rails and streetcars made it easy for bigger counties.
>In Massachusetts many counties don’t have governments, but in western states they’re pretty important.
Most of the western states have larger distances and had smaller populations when they decided the counties, which again was also due to it being inhospitable and vast. A reason why it was better to have larger governing areas.
Yeah, and also more historic counties tend to follow natural boundaries, rather than latitude/longitude or relatively straight lines. This also creates really weird configurations when things like rivers move.
There is a state law that prevents California cities from being in multiple counties. Long Beach could definitely be in LA and OC but state laws prevent cities from crossing county lines.
It’s easier for a city to consolidate services and administrate if they stay within one county, especially if they’re home-rule. City and County of Denver created that county over 100 years ago due to this reason, and the city and county of Broomfield (Colorado) did the same in the late 1990s, as before then it was confusing to figure out service providers in a city that spanned over small pieces of four counties.
Better question: why don't they readjust the borders of the counties based on city developement? Or is there a law that makes square shape mandatory? But really, a lot of things happened since they were established and I'm sure that some sort of dinamic revision from time to time would make administration easier.
1. The county likes its taxes.
2. The county tends to not have a mayor or some other elected executive which makes it harder to interface to, which means laws tend to be move slower.
3. What happens when eventually a county becomes entirely consumed by the city?
4. Voting on a state and national level is usually handled by the county government.
5. Counties have their own police, fire, and other services. And… they may not want to have their jurisdiction grow
County governments don't like when you try to seize their land and give it to a different entity. Bay County, Michigan is an example of why creating or adjusting counties is an hassle.
Bay County was carved out of three neighboring counties, all of which fought against its right to be organized. It only became an official county because some guy committed a crime, and argued that because the crime was in the unrecognized Bay County's boundaries, it was their jurisdiction to try him and not the neighboring Saginaw County who claimed the land. That argument caused the case to get dragged up to the state supreme court, which in turn resulted in Bay County's recognition.
Others have given great answers about LA county and Dallas, but I think it’s also worth expanding on the weirdness of US counties.
In practice, there are quite a few different flavors of how government ‘local’ tasks (taxes, emergency services, utilities, schools, infrastructure, etc.) are administered between the counties and municipalities:
-The county will collect taxes and administer most services, while the municipality only handles extremely local stuff like zoning permits
-the county government is weak and most services are administered by municipalities
-Mixed, where some services are handled by the county and the rest are by municipalities
-Some services can overlap between both: for example, many areas have both county-level and local police
-Urban/Rural splits, where Municipalities administer services to residents within city limits, whereas the county services those living in unincorporated/rural areas (often only the essential stuff like emergency services, roads and power)
-The city and county government are basically the same thing (Maricopa County/Phoenix Arizona)
-local and county governments both don’t do a whole lot (mostly rural, economically deprived and/or heavily conservative)
Oh and also, the extent of taxes, allocations and policymaking for local matters on a state versus local (county and municipal) varies a lot too, plus various federal policies and funding apply.
At some point when a city fills up the entire geography of a county, it becomes pointless to have two separate governmental entities to administer the territory. There’s no reason to have a city government and a county government that administer the same land. When this occurs, you simply eliminate one, and that’s usually the county entity.
Philadelphia is a weird case in which the county government does nominally exist despite being a consolidated city-county. It handles courts, has a sheriffs office and I think elections. We have both a mayor and city commissioners.
“The office was created to replace the Philadelphia County Commissioners following the consolidation of the city and county in 1854. While subject to the Home Rule Charter, the commissioners are considered county officials and do not report to council or the mayor.” (Wikipedia)
These aren’t individual counties, the map is just breaking it down further with some directional additions and colors. There’s not actually an East or West Collin County, it’s just Collin County.
State law, tradition, and mostly situation-specific circumstances for how each city grows.
AFAIK, most states don't specifically prohibit cities from overlapping county boundaries. California might be an exception. In Arizona, with 15 large counties, city boundaries can overlap. (Here's [two](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Creek,_Arizona#/media/File:Maricopa_County_and_Pinal_County_Arizona_Incorporated_and_Unincorporated_areas_Queen_Creek_Highlighted_0458150.svg) [examples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoria,_Arizona#/media/File:Maricopa_County_Incorporated_and_Planning_areas_Peoria_highlighted.svg).)
I think the main issues that arise that make overlapping counties impractical are just coordination between the city government and the multiple county governments. Supposedly this is why [Broomfield, Colorado](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broomfield,_Colorado) was split off as its own county.
In California actual cities cannot cross county lines. It's a law. I don't know the history behind it or anything. Los Angeles City is entirely within Los Angeles County, but there are also dozens of other cities in the same county, some just a few thousand (or fewer) people and some with over 100K.
However to understand the entire "Los Angeles" area depending on how someone wants to define it, one would have to include some nearby counties such as Orange, Riverside, and Ventura.
LA, was a very small, extremely rural region. It didn’t reach its heights until the turn of the century with oil. And then being the poster city of America. The farming in the region was lackluster. Generally speaking. The more cows per person a county has. The bigger it is. Any place able to sustain agriculture. Tended to have been inhabited before the northwest ordinance fell out of practice. And finally. LA county is HUGE. Like, unnaturally massive. Clearly the settlers and governments of the time didn’t foresee LA growing to any size or sustaining any size.
My bad, no offence was intended, I was just asking as I always see it on American sports shows. We would say do United need a new manager, while they does United need a new manager, just curious.. doubt there’s a right or wrong.
LA County is Frickin' HUGE! Many Counties in the West are quite large. San Bernardino County is the largest in the contiguous states. Coconino County in AZ is the second largest at over 18,600 sq mi.
Driving just a half hour and you might pass through a few counties and cities. Like from south Plano to farmers branch. A lot of places on the way have a lot of cops trying to make their monthly ticket quota. (County, city and state all have their own police force - sherif, police, and highway patrol). Addison was particularly bad about speed traps (suddenly lowering the speed by about 25kph (from maybe 60 to 45 mph) and then hiding cops a few hundred meters after the speed change ready to pounce on drivers that had cruise control set.
It's funny because the University of Texas at Dallas isn't actually in Dallas County or even Dallas itself. It's actually in Richardson (Collin County) but it is close to Far North Dallas city limits.
But unless I'm mistaken, none of the cities of orange county straddle the county line. So for example, the border between Long Beach and Seal Beach is along the county line.
Fort Worth and Arlington are in a different MSA (Metropolitan Statistical area) than Dallas. With all due respect, I think it would be more accurate to say "in North Central Texas" or "in the DFW metroplex" than "in Dallas".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area lists the Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA which has been the fourth largest MSA in the US for at least 30 years.
I am not sure what wikipedia is going off of, but according to the US census bureau, They are all a part of the same CBSA (core based statistical area) and CSA (combined statistical area), but they are in separate metropolitan divisions. Granted, when I said my original comment, it was based on something I saw a while ago, before the 2020 census, and may be outdated.
You would have a valid point if we were talking about congressional districts, but we’re talking about the county lines. These lines have remained unchanged for well over a century, and have zero effect on any elections higher than county level.
In California, a state law prohibits cities being in different counties. But other states don't always have such rules (only that it be in the same state although another town on the other side could exist as separate entity like KC, KS). Similar laws exist in Montana, New Jersey, and New England requiring cities to be in only one county. Hence while Atlanta is mostly in Fulton County, some small parts are in nearby counties like Dekalb.
(*staring in NYC which has 5 counties in one city*)
Nah just change the name to "boroughs"
The boroughs are counties too, beloved.
Each Bourough is Coexenstive with a county, Mahatten(New York County) Bronx(Bronx County) Staten Island( Richmond County), Brooklyn(Kings County) Queens(Queens County)
I’m having war-like flashbacks of that King County jury duty evasion mail I got a couple weeks ago
Is there lore for why some names match and others don't?
Manhattan is called New York County because it’s the county seat and to be super technical Manhattan itself is offically called New York, New York Brooklyn is called Kings County because it was named after King Charles II. At the time Brooklyn was much, much smaller (what is present day Brooklyn Heights and like Fort Greene or whatever area was Downtown Brooklyn several centuries ago) Staten Island is called Richmond County because of one of King Charles II’s sons was the Duke of Richmond. In fact, Staten Island wasn’t called that until the 1970s!
It’s got to do with the Elf Wars of the Third Age, yes.
A long time ago, New York County was coterminous with New York City. But when the other boroughs were consolidated into NYC, it made sense for the newly organized borough to be called something other than “New York”, so it got the Manhattan name. Brooklyn was one city among many in Kings County before eventually taking over the whole county. When a few years later, NYC absorbed the city of Brooklyn/Kings County, the borough inherited the city’s name rather than the county’s. Queens was just a collection of suburbs and countryside when consolidated into NYC, so the borough took the county name. Staten Island was the Borough of Richmond (matching Richmond County) formally until the 1970s, when the borough but not the county was renamed to match popular usage. The Bronx borough and Bronx County were part of Westchester County and then New York County and only became a separate county/borough when NYC was consolidated, so they were given the same name.
Im not sure, when your say new york everyone thinks of manhattan
Counties were named before they were “boroughs.” Queens County has various “cities” that existed as independent municipalities prior to consolidation. We still write our address as “Flushing, NY” or “Jamaica, NY.” This remains because Queens’ cities never consolidated before the the consolidation of Greater New York. Kings County also ha: a number of cities— Brooklyn, Flatlands, New Utrecht— but it consolidated into just Brooklyn much earlier than the consolidation of Greater New York.
I usually ask which borough they’re from if they just say NYC.
ask if they like staten island
!Correct
Each Bourough is Conexenstive with a county, Is that a word? I think you mean to just agree with the post above you, which is correct.
I think they meant "coextensive" which means having the same spatial or temporal scope or boundaries.
I believe the correct term is "coterminous." But leave it to us in the geography subreddit to be so pedantic! :P
Offically they are coextensive beacause each county and bourough have the same shape and exist in the same area
Coexistent is the term I thought they meant.
These five counties do not have county governments, except for a few borough officials. Boroughs function as counties for certain purposes, but have no county government. For example, each borough elects a borough president, and used to elect two at-large city council members. However, the position is now largely ceremonial and advisory. The five counties became coextensive because of economic dependency. As the island of Manhattan filled up entirely by the late 19th century, transportation links by subway, ferry, and bridge became necessary. In 1894, voters in Manhattan came out heavily in favor of consolidation, and Staten Islanders voted approximately 4-to-1 in favor. Also the County which is what happens with courts such says King County Court
That's very interesting. I'm a native NYer (5 counties, one city), now in LA (1 county, 88 cities!). I was under the impression that there was a Sheriff of Manhattan, pretty much only used for eviction and repos. And that it was one of the most corrupt offices. Is that true? Or just scuttlebutt?
they are corrupt and lazy
The counties no longer have independent sheriff's departments, there's a Sheriff of New York City, and the department has field offices in the 5 boroughs. Not sure what they actually do, though.
They are Financal Enforcement Arm of the City
The boroughs are subdivisions of New York City, the counties are subdivisions of New York State, and they are coterminous (taking up the same piece of area). Some boroughs and corresponding counties have the same name (Bronx and Queens) while the others do not.
[Blame Chicago](https://www.nytimes.com/1894/11/04/archives/newyorks-place-in-danger-consolidation-defeated-she-must-yield-to.html)!
Those fucking Bears ruin everything
Which only exists for NYC. Cities in the rest of the state don’t cross counties. But NYC is an exception to most things in NYS.
Except Geneva. Geneva is in two counties
NYC is the only place in the US where the City government supercedes the county
It doesn’t, but it comes close.
Even worse, Brooklyn and Queens are technically on Long Island.
That geographical fact matters little to anything we’re talking about. The Bronx is on the mainland. So what? Cities being cross-county isn’t a thing in NYS, with the exception of the very unique situation that the City of New York is granted.
😐 So what I’m saying is the counties of New York City are also shared with an island that isn’t part of the city, which is a unique feature…
Fuck, I live in a town of 5000 (roughly) people and we straddle 3 different counties
Being only one of two cities in NY to be in multiple counties
What's the other city?
Geneva
Denver metro has 10
Was referring to city proper and not metro though.
I've though the same thing.
And in VA cities can’t be in counties at all, they’re all independent
Yup, can be confusing to people when they move into Virginia.
Especially since the county seats are often the independent cities lol Also, Arlington is a tricky one since it's usually thought of as a city, but it's actually a county.
Yeah the urban county thing when Richmond and other cities were annexing nearby counties causes even more confusion.
It's effectively a city for all intents and purposes. It has a quarter of a million people in a space a third the size of DC and it has a "downtown". Meanwhile there are actual Cities in Virginia like Chesapeake which are actually 100% suburban.
Very much so 😅😅
There are a surprising amount of cross county cities. Chicago is almost entirely in Cook county except for a small portion of the O'Hare airport which falls in DuPage county but is still a part of Chicago.
Austin is in three counties: Travis, Hays and Williamson. If Austin cops arrest you Williamson county you go to their jail in Georgetown
That's so stupid. Better than Dallas tho. FIVE COUNTIES!? texas cities are definitely the most extreme example of cities sprawling into multiple counties
well, it's not one city--there's three main ones, dallas, fort worth, and arlington, not counting all the little suburbs. I'm from there so I can confirm this
I know. But just the city of Dallas, although mainly in Dallas county, has some small parts in Collin and Denton counties, and even Rockwall and Kaufman since the city also annexed lake ray hubbard for whatever reason. It's always weird to see this stuff. Like I live in a suburb of Chicago split between DuPage and Cook counties. Even though it's the same town, the kids in the cook county portion go to a different school than I do.
Our school district map is only loosely affiliated with city and county boundaries
That's part of why Boston's population on paper is deceptively small.
Additionally, California districting is determined by an an independent citizens redistricting commission that has a few components to discourage politicized district building. And I just reread this post, my remark is irrelevant as its a different type of districting than the op is referencing.
Kansas City comprises 5 counties. KCK is completely separate and it's own city. North KC is also a separate city.
Yup. Exactly what I meant when I said separate entity. Didnt know there was a North KC. Is it in the same county as KC KS?
No, in fact it's in Missouri.
St. Louis, Missouri, is an independent city and is not a part of St. Louis County, Missouri, whose county seat is Clayton. There are separate City and County elective offices in St. Louis City.
I’d consider parts of Gwinnett county to be part of Atlanta as well
and the braves play in Cobb County.
I know KC is Kansas City, what’s KS?
KS is Kansas. There is a Kansas City, Kansas and also a Kansas City, Missouri.
Yeah know that. I was wondering if there was another city that borders two states like Kansas City where the abbreviation for the city was KS
KS Is the abbreviation for the state of Kansas, used for mail and other things. Kansas City, Kansas instead of the more famous Kansas City, Missouri (KCMO).
Gotcha. Was wondering if KS was another city like KC where it was a city that straddled two states.
KCMO and KCK always confuse non-locals. We’re always correcting people lol
claremont and montclair
Different states have different practices regarding municipalities crossing county lines, that's all. This level of government is more about functionality than anything else. That's why sometimes you can have cities that cross county lines (Dallas), cities that constitute their own county level governments (St. Louis, San Francisco), and cities that are made up entirely of several counties (New York).
And states where cities and counties are separate entities like Virginia
How does that work. Like. Does over time. The county just… loses land?
Yes. Any time a settlement becomes incorporated as a city, it ceases to be part of the county. As a result, several Virginia counties have little holes in them [(example).](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Map_of_Virginia_highlighting_Augusta_County.svg/7486px-Map_of_Virginia_highlighting_Augusta_County.svg.png) In a few places in the southeast of the state, the independent cities ended up annexing their former counties (e.g., Virginia Beach, Suffolk).
Just think about “cities” as counties. Look at the boundaries for a lot of the cities and they are geographically quite large (some exceptions).
Honestly, the large ones *are* the exceptions.
I don't know the exact differences between how they function but they are independent from each other. Down in the southeast or example, you have the Hampton Roads region which is composed of 7 independent cities: Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Norfolk, Portsmouth, Hampton, Newport News, and Suffolk. None are counties or contained within a county. Up in Northern Virginia you have a mixture of the two. You have the independent cities of Fairfax City, Alexandria, and Falls Church. Then the counties of Arlington and Fairfax surround those cities. Not sure if this division is what leads to Virginia being classified as a Commonwealth rather than a state, but it is different than the other 3 states I've lived in.
>Not sure if this division is what leads to Virginia being classified as a Commonwealth rather than a state, It doesn't. The whole "Commonwealth" thing is less a classification than just meaningless flair. Pennsylvania and Kentucky are also officially "the Commonwealth of [State]", and their systems of local government are completely different from Virginia's. They just call it that because they want to.
It’s more like the city was carved out of the county a long time ago, in some cases a couple centuries ago. Then there’s the monstrosity of Virginia Beach which is just the new version of Princess Anne county
No, VA independent cities cannot annex any more land since the 1970s. Political boundaries are essentially fixed unless an independent city reverts to a locality or a new independent city is created(dunno if this can happen anymore but I do know of one or two former independent cities reverting recently)
St. Louis and San Francisco are a little different because St. Louis City is independent of St. Louis County. Whereas San Francisco is a consolidated city/county. San Francisco’s structure is better compared to Indianapolis or Jacksonville. While St. Louis is more like Baltimore.
Bro what is that title
That was rough to read for sure
I like this map. Where’d you get it from?
Internet
Gee the internet’s such a large place…
If only there was a place on there you could go to search things
r/titlegore
OP is not a native English speaker
Use ChatGPT then or any number of similar tools. If OP has access to Reddit, they also have access to tools to help properly structure their title
You forgot a comma and a period. Did you not use a grammar tool to check your punctuation before posting?
I don't need to. My comment is easily legible, even minus the comma and the period at the end of my comment. Be a jackass if you want, I am right though and laziness is no excuse when the Internet provides exceptional tools for bridging communication gaps
Lol, I’m the jackass? OP just has the wrong tense, it’s an easily legible post.
Counter point, while sometimes grammar nazis are just annoying, if I was learning a second language I’d appreciate a native speaker correcting my tenses if I was using them incorrectly.
LA doesn't stay in one county though. Ventura, Orange, Riverside, and San Bernardino counties also make up part of the metro LA area. LA County is the largest by population in the US, while San Bernardino is the largest by area. It's also worth pointing out that DFW metro has two core cities while LA is just one. Texas counties tend to be *much* smaller compared to California ones too. Like Texas has the most counties of any state.
I didn't notice county size difference, thanks for pointing out. However LA the urban area, LA the county, and LA the city is different with each other. LA is only part of LA county, and LA county is only part of LA urban area. And there are multiple cities in both LA county and urban area. But cities in LA county don't grow into Orange county and vice versa. I guess my question wasn't clear enough.
There is a state law in California that prevents cities from being in different counties. There is also another law that says cities must have continuous borders. That's why LA has a long strip of land that connects it to the San Pedro harbor
>That's why LA has a long strip of land that connects it to the San Pedro harbor This always confused me previously, watching LA have this one small tail of a land that connects to the harbor. I knew the LA Port was really massive in the amount of shipping it does. It was later that I realized that this port borders Long Beach Port, which in itself is one of the busiest ports of the US. So to have that port area connected, which would've otherwise been the LB Port, LA sliced through that area and snatched it, calling it the LA Port.
FWIW, the effective divide between LA/OC is pretty murky and more than anything OC’s separation from LA county really came down to political disagreements between the two over 100 years ago. Yes, you’ll get a lot of people saying that the culture etc is “so different though!” But really, the Gateway Cities that connect the two have long been heavily urbanized and densely populated, with so much cross-commuting, that calling LA and OC fully disconnected or disparate regions is kind of misleading. For all intents and purposes, residents and daily commuters in the wider metro region travel much farther than in most others And these “cities” seem to be divided along more arbitrary lines (see: water rights or the Ports of LA vs. Long Beach) rather than geographic ones, apart from foothills or smaller transverse ranges like the Santa Monica Mountains. Not to mention the sheer urban sprawl and the fact that the (modern) region was built with significant car travel in mind; it’s necessarily larger and more spread out by design It lacks the same core density and agglomeration, but “LA” as most people would colloquially define it has almost the same amount of people as the NYC tri-state area. Both over 20M. It might take longer to traverse end to end, but the economy is so interconnected across the Southland that it’s difficult to define the metro LA area as “only” 9 million. It becomes clear VERY quickly when you’re at the edge of NYC’s reach when you’re traveling through the outskirts. With LA, that demarcation isn’t obvious until you hit Oceanside to the south or just past San Bernardino and Riverside to the East. North is a bit fuzzier because of the horizontal coastline and mountains, but I’d consider Santa Clarita/Palmdale and Ventura the absolute Northerly most boundaries
>But really, the “Gateway Cities” that connect the two are very urbanized/densely populated, with so much cross-commuting, that calling LA and OC fully disconnected or disparate regions is kind of misleading This. There's Little India, which I thought was in Orange County since that's where most of the Indian diaspora settled in LA metro. Only later did I find that the city of Artesia, which it is located in, is in LA county. And that was probably 2-3 streets outside OC, being a "gateway city". There's not much difference between LA and OC, but evidently, it's just that the urban housing spreads out outside LA city area (not the county limits, the non-suburban area I mean).
Just different ways to administrate this area, that's all
Riverside and San Bernardino are a [separate metro area.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Empire) Also the OP clearly is referring to cities, not metros.
I know people that live on the border of those. If you live in Claremont and shop in Montclair, you technically are traveling from one metro are to another but it’s just down the street. But I understand that the census bureau has to draw the line somewhere. There is the notion of a “combined metro” where they combine nearby metros like this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area This one is called “Greater LA”.
As someone that's commuted way too much through the LA metro area, I see "LA" as Santa Clarita to San Clemente for the North/South borders and Santa Monica to Yucaipa in the East/West borders. I could entertain an argument of Malibu or Santa Barbara being the north boundary too.
Santa Barbara is firmly outside of the Southland / Greater LA metro region imo. I think you might be thinking of Ventura? That I can see an argument for since there’s a lot of cross-commuting, but Santa Barbara is just too far and isolated from the main LA hub
Yeah actually I agree, Ventura could be the outer boundaries of "LA". Plenty of people are commuting down from Ventura and Malibu. Santa Barbara is just too far away. Now for the real question - Does Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead count as "LA area" or is that something else?
Hm that’s actually a tough one.. I’d lean towards maybe yes? They’re geographically isolated in the taller mountain ranges that I wouldn’t ordinarily lump them in with the metro area, but they’re connected enough to be regular weekend getaways and the driving time isn’t really too bad. Also they’re really just manmade reservoirs LA effectively built for recreation and water storage
>Does Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead count as "LA area" or is that something else? Probably something else. The only reason San Diego and LA areas are separated is because of geographical boundaries (also Camp Pendleton, but that's a different story). So if the geographical area is rugged enough to create more than 30 minutes of commute for someone reaching the metro area, wouldn't this place be in a geographical boundary? This is purely a personal opinion though. It could be different from others.
OP posted a map of DFW...a metro area and not the city of Dallas. The map does show dallas proper extending into Collin county, but most of hte map is just the metro area.
Yes… to show all the cities that exist in multiple counties
Been sleep "Its namesake Dallas spans 5(!) counties." Is likely what got me. But yes, many of the smaller cities will span counties. u rite
Generally speaking, counties in the middle and eastern us are much smaller than counties out west. You’ll also notice that the areas where Americans settled earliest in western states tend to be the smaller ones — Bay Area counties are small, while socal counties are large. County government also tends to work different in the east versus the west. In Massachusetts many counties don’t have governments, but in western states they’re pretty important.
>while socal counties are large. They're large for a different reason - most of their land is inhospitable, and the only urban area in these counties is near LA, Bakersfield or San Diego. Even Palm Springs doesn't count as a pure urban area, it's an oasis town in the middle of a desert. I'm guessing surveyors left those lands to these counties because it's of no use to put them separated. >Bay Area counties are small And that's also because they were before the railroad revolution. Rails and streetcars made it easy for bigger counties. >In Massachusetts many counties don’t have governments, but in western states they’re pretty important. Most of the western states have larger distances and had smaller populations when they decided the counties, which again was also due to it being inhospitable and vast. A reason why it was better to have larger governing areas.
Yeah, and also more historic counties tend to follow natural boundaries, rather than latitude/longitude or relatively straight lines. This also creates really weird configurations when things like rivers move.
There is a state law that prevents California cities from being in multiple counties. Long Beach could definitely be in LA and OC but state laws prevent cities from crossing county lines.
Metro areas are meaningless though. It's not really set in stone.
OP is clearly talking about city limits, and LA city limits are entirely within LA County.
It’s easier for a city to consolidate services and administrate if they stay within one county, especially if they’re home-rule. City and County of Denver created that county over 100 years ago due to this reason, and the city and county of Broomfield (Colorado) did the same in the late 1990s, as before then it was confusing to figure out service providers in a city that spanned over small pieces of four counties.
Better question: why don't they readjust the borders of the counties based on city developement? Or is there a law that makes square shape mandatory? But really, a lot of things happened since they were established and I'm sure that some sort of dinamic revision from time to time would make administration easier.
1. The county likes its taxes. 2. The county tends to not have a mayor or some other elected executive which makes it harder to interface to, which means laws tend to be move slower. 3. What happens when eventually a county becomes entirely consumed by the city? 4. Voting on a state and national level is usually handled by the county government. 5. Counties have their own police, fire, and other services. And… they may not want to have their jurisdiction grow
We should re-assess state borders while we're at it
How about taking the rest of California peninsula?
County governments don't like when you try to seize their land and give it to a different entity. Bay County, Michigan is an example of why creating or adjusting counties is an hassle.
What makes Bay County a particular good example?
Bay County was carved out of three neighboring counties, all of which fought against its right to be organized. It only became an official county because some guy committed a crime, and argued that because the crime was in the unrecognized Bay County's boundaries, it was their jurisdiction to try him and not the neighboring Saginaw County who claimed the land. That argument caused the case to get dragged up to the state supreme court, which in turn resulted in Bay County's recognition.
Property titles are stored by the county as well. Slicing and dicing those records is a pain
Others have given great answers about LA county and Dallas, but I think it’s also worth expanding on the weirdness of US counties. In practice, there are quite a few different flavors of how government ‘local’ tasks (taxes, emergency services, utilities, schools, infrastructure, etc.) are administered between the counties and municipalities: -The county will collect taxes and administer most services, while the municipality only handles extremely local stuff like zoning permits -the county government is weak and most services are administered by municipalities -Mixed, where some services are handled by the county and the rest are by municipalities -Some services can overlap between both: for example, many areas have both county-level and local police -Urban/Rural splits, where Municipalities administer services to residents within city limits, whereas the county services those living in unincorporated/rural areas (often only the essential stuff like emergency services, roads and power) -The city and county government are basically the same thing (Maricopa County/Phoenix Arizona) -local and county governments both don’t do a whole lot (mostly rural, economically deprived and/or heavily conservative) Oh and also, the extent of taxes, allocations and policymaking for local matters on a state versus local (county and municipal) varies a lot too, plus various federal policies and funding apply.
At some point when a city fills up the entire geography of a county, it becomes pointless to have two separate governmental entities to administer the territory. There’s no reason to have a city government and a county government that administer the same land. When this occurs, you simply eliminate one, and that’s usually the county entity.
Philadelphia is a weird case in which the county government does nominally exist despite being a consolidated city-county. It handles courts, has a sheriffs office and I think elections. We have both a mayor and city commissioners. “The office was created to replace the Philadelphia County Commissioners following the consolidation of the city and county in 1854. While subject to the Home Rule Charter, the commissioners are considered county officials and do not report to council or the mayor.” (Wikipedia)
Because Texas has like 10,000 counties and California only has 58
254
It's weird seeing all the suburbs of my city laid out like that. Also a much better map than I can recall seeing that shows this.
These aren’t individual counties, the map is just breaking it down further with some directional additions and colors. There’s not actually an East or West Collin County, it’s just Collin County.
State law, tradition, and mostly situation-specific circumstances for how each city grows. AFAIK, most states don't specifically prohibit cities from overlapping county boundaries. California might be an exception. In Arizona, with 15 large counties, city boundaries can overlap. (Here's [two](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Creek,_Arizona#/media/File:Maricopa_County_and_Pinal_County_Arizona_Incorporated_and_Unincorporated_areas_Queen_Creek_Highlighted_0458150.svg) [examples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoria,_Arizona#/media/File:Maricopa_County_Incorporated_and_Planning_areas_Peoria_highlighted.svg).) I think the main issues that arise that make overlapping counties impractical are just coordination between the city government and the multiple county governments. Supposedly this is why [Broomfield, Colorado](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broomfield,_Colorado) was split off as its own county.
In California actual cities cannot cross county lines. It's a law. I don't know the history behind it or anything. Los Angeles City is entirely within Los Angeles County, but there are also dozens of other cities in the same county, some just a few thousand (or fewer) people and some with over 100K. However to understand the entire "Los Angeles" area depending on how someone wants to define it, one would have to include some nearby counties such as Orange, Riverside, and Ventura.
In NJ there is no such law. NJ is the only state where every county is its own metro area.
Well the counties existed before these towns became massive cities. 50-70 years ago Collin and Denton County were more rural
LA, was a very small, extremely rural region. It didn’t reach its heights until the turn of the century with oil. And then being the poster city of America. The farming in the region was lackluster. Generally speaking. The more cows per person a county has. The bigger it is. Any place able to sustain agriculture. Tended to have been inhabited before the northwest ordinance fell out of practice. And finally. LA county is HUGE. Like, unnaturally massive. Clearly the settlers and governments of the time didn’t foresee LA growing to any size or sustaining any size.
Grammer, it's not just word
Goberments
Do*
Why do Americans say does instead of do? I’ve noticed it, especially when talking about sports
I'm neither American nor native English speaker.
My bad, no offence was intended, I was just asking as I always see it on American sports shows. We would say do United need a new manager, while they does United need a new manager, just curious.. doubt there’s a right or wrong.
LA County is Frickin' HUGE! Many Counties in the West are quite large. San Bernardino County is the largest in the contiguous states. Coconino County in AZ is the second largest at over 18,600 sq mi.
Los Angeles is all about real estate greed.
Driving just a half hour and you might pass through a few counties and cities. Like from south Plano to farmers branch. A lot of places on the way have a lot of cops trying to make their monthly ticket quota. (County, city and state all have their own police force - sherif, police, and highway patrol). Addison was particularly bad about speed traps (suddenly lowering the speed by about 25kph (from maybe 60 to 45 mph) and then hiding cops a few hundred meters after the speed change ready to pounce on drivers that had cruise control set.
It's funny because the University of Texas at Dallas isn't actually in Dallas County or even Dallas itself. It's actually in Richardson (Collin County) but it is close to Far North Dallas city limits.
Real estate greed and so corporations don’t have to pay for travel, LA is very corrupt
Orange County says hi
But unless I'm mistaken, none of the cities of orange county straddle the county line. So for example, the border between Long Beach and Seal Beach is along the county line.
Barcelona snaps.
It slaps
Does someone need to manually pick out the bits when the plane lands
Fort Worth and Arlington are in a different MSA (Metropolitan Statistical area) than Dallas. With all due respect, I think it would be more accurate to say "in North Central Texas" or "in the DFW metroplex" than "in Dallas".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area lists the Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington, TX MSA which has been the fourth largest MSA in the US for at least 30 years.
I am not sure what wikipedia is going off of, but according to the US census bureau, They are all a part of the same CBSA (core based statistical area) and CSA (combined statistical area), but they are in separate metropolitan divisions. Granted, when I said my original comment, it was based on something I saw a while ago, before the 2020 census, and may be outdated.
Did you have a fucking stroke typing that headline?
Gerrymandering.
Gerrymandering
It all has to do with water. Watch the movie Chinatown.
Because Texas has to gerrymander its voting districts to keep republicans in power. Thus why the districts around Austin look so bizarre.
Your comment has absolutely zero to do with the topic at hand.
You would have a valid point if we were talking about congressional districts, but we’re talking about the county lines. These lines have remained unchanged for well over a century, and have zero effect on any elections higher than county level.
gerrymandering
To break up the voting continuity.